I have a brainstorm! How about a NES, operated by several forum mebers, beginnign in 4000 BC, and to the end (which does not exists - it's a Never Ending Story you know!)

Those who like the idea, contribute by helping me with rules, civilizations, maps, concepts, battle models, places for moedrators, and several, and several, and several...

If we want to start it before the end of 2002 AD, then we better start workibng. Hop-hop,hop,hop,hop... (half dies from EXCITMENT!)

Das, I have never been in any of your NES's, but from what I have heard you are a very good MOD. I'll help ya.

I have an idea. For the maps:
We could have 2 maps instead of 1. Like or having a map for American Continents, EurAsia and Africa. Also we would have a map of the World to chart the Civilizations. There would be alot of civs, so we would have to have 2 or three threads for each continent, cause North and South America are isolated from all of the other Continents, so this will lower confusion.

Where? When does it start, has it already?

I want in!

It didn't start yet! Wea re still discussign the concept!

Okay, now weshoudl start tihnking about it step by step.

Let's make several polls.

Those are four first quesitons and my answers.

1) Should we use real world map, or a different one?
2) Should we use historical civilizations, or can the players decide the name of their civilization?
3) Should we use Tiles, Cities and Units on the map?
4) Should player be able to decide his startign location?

1) I nominate the Real World Map.
2) The players should be able to deicde everything about their civilization as long as it's realistic. I eman, no civilization of little turtle-suited doplphin-men with orange skin, if you knwo what I mean...
3) YES.
4) YES.

4)i think it sould be decided already.(ex.1. joiner gets starting location number1,2.joner gets number 2.and so on.)

I think it should kinda be like UKNESII, with the provineces, but with the entire world. OR, what if we started with Eurasia and Africa, then on a set date, we discovered America?

1) I Agree. real World map rocks
2) Players decide all! Yeah.
3) As long as i don't have to MOD it
4) Definately

Originally posted by AnarchyRulz
I think it should kinda be like UKNESII, with the provineces, but with the entire world. OR, what if we started with Eurasia and Africa, then on a set date, we discovered America?

I'm sorry but i was reallly hoping to play as the Incans or some N. American Indian Nation.

maybe at a set date communications can be opened between the continents?

yes, I like your idea SKILORD. It would add a lot of fun tothe game wth the discovery of new lands and empires.

1) I think the real world map, but split up. Say the UKNES2 map for Europe(love that map lol cause it's so well split up(not me, but the Dilplomacy guy who actually made it did a good job)), one of Africa and then a last one of the Americas. These three can then be joined to make one world(the Americas one joining onto the side of Africa and Europe for movement purposes).

2) I think starting locations and civs should already be chosen, in the same way as UKNES2.

3) I think it should be provinces, cities and units. Preferably only a few different units for simplicity(possibly each nation could have a bonus instead, ie; armies cost 1 gold less for Russia, but have a -1 modifier, or Britain's fleets get a +1 modifier etc). I think it should be provinces and not tiles to reflect the real borders of the world(not straight).

4) Yes, but only which civ he takes, not an exact location(mind you, I'm not too worried either way, even if they choose their own province to start in).

Please have a look on the same page as the last map update in UKNES2 to see the latest rules in it. I think these could work well in a SUPERNES.

Here they are in brief(provinces generate 3 gold per turn usually, and capitals, as they already have production centres, generate 5 gold):

You can buy a production centre for 25 credits, which allows you to build armies and fleets in that province, and increases the value of that province to 5 credits per turn. These are shown by a black circle with white inside(like your capital).

You can buy a barracks for 15 credits, that can only build armies, and increases the value of that province to 5 credits per turn. These are shown by a black square with white inside.

You can buy a dockyard for 10 credits, that can only build fleets, and increases the value of that province to 5 credits per turn. These are shown by a white circle with black inside.

You can buy a town hall for 5 credits that increases the value of that province to 5 credits per turn. These are shown by a white square with black inside.

You cannot upgrade from one to the other, if you want to change the type of building, you must pull down the other one and build a new one there.

EACH PROVINCE CAN ONLY HOLD ONE TYPE OF BUILDING.

Finally, I think an upkeep system of sorts is a good idea.

Nemesis

have you tried to modify my city improvement creation?

What city improvement creation?

No, I just used the production centre idea and modified it slightly, as Troquelet complained about them being too expensive.

Nemesis

i don't like the whole province thing b/c this would be on a huge scale and for it to be manageable the provinces would be huge too. or they would be too small to really tell if theyre there

That's why I think each of the three maps should be big enough that the provinces are about the same size as those on the UKNES2 map, easily big enough to see.

Nemesis

OH 3 maps ! that should work

Originally posted by uknemesis
That's why I think each of the three maps should be big enough that the provinces are about the same size as those on the UKNES2 map, easily big enough to see.

Nemesis

just make sure you have the links there as well ;)

Yeah, I think that you should be able to pass from the European North Atlantic waters to the American North Atlantic waters, and from the African South Atlantic waters to American South Atlantic waters, and finally from Med. Sea European side to the Med. Sea African side.

Also, the Americas should be on one map together, or two maps with a link in the Caribbean and Central America.

Anyway, don't look to me for maps lol, I'm too busy! But if anyone wants to use the UKNES2 map, or edit it, be my guest, I can send you the bitmap if you like.

Nemesis

How about we make up our OWN map? (non-earth)

Earth maps are better because you can compare your empire to the Empire in real life.

Whoh! I can't believe I missed this!

I like the idea of provinces, seas, armies, fleets, and buildings, which Uknemesis and I have been toying with. In every NES using it so far (UKNES, UKNES2, ARTNES) it's been greatly successful.

Also, it's simple which would cut down on moderation needs.

But LOL the map-making would be pretty tough. We already have a map of Europe.


I suggest we have 3 maps:

1. Europe, like Uknemesis' map.

2. Africa

3. North America and the Carribean.

Also, the map should be non-wrappable.

shouldn`t it be a map for asia?

I suggest we have one gigantic map of Earth, divided into provinces. And each civ has a starting province that they start on in 4000 BC. And they have to send a unit into a province and pay money to claim it next turn, like in my FANNES.

Maybe each turn could be 5 days long, Monday to Friday, and the weekend could be the time the MODS have to update the map, sort combat, or whatever. That is also a feature in FANNES.

Speaking of combat, I have an idea for a combat system. Each unit could have an Attack and Defense rating, and if the Attacker has a higher attack then the Defender has defense, then the attacker gets two dice to roll and the defender gets one. Each one's highest roll will count. Whichever one's highest roll is the highest the loser loses 1 HP (they could have 2 HP). The same of what I just said would be true if a Defender has a higher defense then the Attacker has an attack. If the defense of the Defender is equal to the attack of the Attacker, they both roll 2 dice. And if the Attacker loses 1 HP, they can choose to keep fighting or retreat.

5 days is a bit too long for a turn.

WarlordMatt: That combat system sounds too much like Risk to me, and after feeling cheated so many times by the Risk dice (:p), I don't like that system.

I feel that possibly a system like Troquelet's one, where the attack values are all added up, and then the defence ones are all added up is the best way.

Don't ask me how to resolve combat from those values though lol, the UKNES combat system was damned nasty to resolve, while the UKNES2 one may be too simplistic.

Finally, to get a world map already in provinces, I'd suggest a Diplomacy one, they're easy to edit. Try the Dilplomacy Pouch(I think the url is http://www.diplopouch.com , but I'm not sure) for best results probably.

Nemesis

It's www.diplom.org but I couldn't find anything there, I've already looked. All the world maps are very simplistic, or too complicated...

Okay, how about maps of both hemispheres with tiles or hexes or provicnes of EQUAL sizes - Historical Provinces are NOT acuratte.

Now can soemone design the map?

Oh and I think that we should use something like Europa Universalis with it's armies, navies and for later times we will throw in aviation, and terrain types inside tiles, hexe s or equal-sized provicnes.

We also should have UUs adnd bonuses like in civilization, but who will get which will be decided by a special Realism Moderator...
Okay, nwo let's think nwo about MODERTATORS!

Oh and five days - I don't think so. There must be someone announcing when the turn is over. Turn is normally over after every player submits his orders. If he does not, then the moderator does that.

Oh and combat systenm... Hmmm.... How about using calculator to get random numbers, and to have every first one or two nubmers mean some result for any type of combat... Or is it too complicate...

Also, should Moderators be able to run a ocutnry? Also shoudl there be SEVERAL MODERATORS?

how should science be done?

maybe make it unmodded!

hahaha i am sooooo funny.

I believe science should be the way I've said before, each advance costs a certain amount. You can either pay the full amount straight away if you're rich, or a certain amount per turn if you're not(or want to spend money on other things). For example:

Player1 discovers Internal Combustion. This means his infantry can now be motorised(this is just an example, I'm not sure what advance could do!). He now is able to research Tanks or Aviation, but not Battleship because he hasn't yet discovered Ironclad(the tech tree working there).

Tanks costs 100 gold(dunno how much they should in game, up to mods later), and Aviation costs 250 gold.

Player1 gets 100 gold per turn.

He could either spend it ALL on Tanks(getting it immediately), or pay 50 gold per turn to Tanks(getting it in 2 turns) or to Aviation(getting it in 5 turns). Also, he may choose to spend 25 gold per turn on each, getting Tanks in 4 turns and Aviation in 10.

What do you guys think? This would be combined with a tech tree, and advances could improve your economy, armed forces or provinces etc.

Nemesis

I like it UK.

I feel that a science WILL BE MUCH TO HARD TO HANDLE. I believe that foot soldiers should always be reffered to as ARMIES, and navy as fleets. And I guess in the later part o the game, airforce as wings. The MODS or gamers can decide when it is relevent to use an airforce. I just think there are WAY TOO MANY problems with a science form.

It should be on a world map of gigantice proportions, and, even though I like the historical borders much better, be in tiles for simplicity and visual purposes. Finally, an uncomplete list of civs i have are right here (and some with starting locations):

Rome, Italy
Babylon (or Sumer), Euphrates side of Mesopotamia
Assyria, Tigris side of Mesopotamia
Greece, Greece....
Minoan (Very small, but mentionable Civ), Island of Crete
Egypt, Lower (Which is Northern) egypt
Zimbabwe, Somewhere in Southern Africa, probably on East coast
Inca, Peru
Aztecs, Northern Mexico
Mayans, Yucatan Peninsula
Iroqious, New York State area...
Sioux (if wanted, not to big compared to all the otehr civs!)... Central United States

Also, I have a trading system in which i will describe in brief:

Each province has a certain mineral (i.e. fish for sea, wood, metals, or grain). Individualy, these mean nothing, but when paired with everyother mineral and linked to the capital, gives a bonus of gold each turn. Then, lets say you have an extra fish mineral, but lack a metals mineral, you can trade your fish mineral to a nation that has access metals, in coordinace commencing trade!

I hope this works on a large scale, and seems like it would! Again, this is only a rough copy, and is in dire need of evaluation and tests! If this works, though, it will be my first contribution to the NES games! LOL.

I like the idea alot UK.

now what we need is a group of people ready to dedicate their lives to the cause.

May I suggest this world map? Possibly just a rough draft, a few big territories can be cut up, and the colors changed to white. I also forgot to say that they way the civs gain territory: I like Uk's way in UKNES2. I found this map at the Diplomacy place mentioned above.

i think the provinces should be much smaller many of them are as big as countries are today.

i think we should use jasons idea of just using armies and fleets it will do it much easier for the mods.

Kinda nice through, but we need to delete all the broders until they are established.

Also, on provinces. We need such important things as: roads, cities, armies (infantry, cavalry, tanks, merchants, UUs, artillery), navies (warships, galleys, transports, UUs (if they are naval), submarines, aircraft carriers), aviation (fighter, bobmers, fighter-bobmers, maybe if we go into 2050 then this new AmErican UFOs...) and settlers... Oh and things like hills, mountains, forests... They are important you know...

we cant have it as advanced as civ3 is

Das, either we need about 5 mods(to do all of that!) or we need to scale back a bit!

I think the science idea I had was okay if you want a tech tree, but personally I don't. I think it's much better to set a date for it, and keep it about that date.

I'd suggest the Age of Expansion, Columbus Discovers America(Cortez etc follow), or World War 2.

Then you keep it simple. Possibly just armies and fleets(and squadrons if you have aircraft), that must move like in UKNES2(can only begin in production centres). And being able to build town halls, barracks, dockyards or production centres in provinces which enables you to gain more money from them and in the last three cases, build units there.

For a trading system, I'm not too sure.

Here's my ideas that I'm going to be using for UKNES3 if I ever get round to making it:

TAX RATE AND HAPPINESS

For each 1% of tax(maybe 5%, just a rough figure at the moment), you get 1 gold per province, 2 gold per province with a town hall, barracks or dockyard, and 3 gold for a province with a production centre(like you capital begins with).

But to make sure you don't put the tax rate to 100%, for every 1% tax above 5% there is a -1 happiness modifier. Below 5%, it is a positive modifier. Then for every province you own, a loyalty roll is made every turn. The base happiness is 3 for a province, 5 for a barracks, town hall or dockyard, and 7 for a production centre, due to the quality of life.

Armies in the province affect the roll, adding +1 to the base happiness for every army in the province(no, they don't get sick of seeing too many armies, cause in those times of frequent war, they liked feeling safe, and they know they can't rebel), as does government funding. Government funding is giving money back to the people to improve their lives, and for every 1 gold you give back to the people, adds 1 to the base happiness in that province. You can either set an amount for the entire country, and have it divided equally between your provinces, or you can individually assign it if you like.

Finally, the roll is made with all the modifiers taken into account. If the roll is below or equal to the happiness rating, then the province remains happy. If the roll fails, rebellion breaks out, and for every 1 that the roll failed by(say if you rolled a 8 when you needed a 7, that would be failed by 1, for 9 it would be failed by 2 etc) becomes a negative modifier to all the armies in the province. They must roll 9 - the modifier or below to stay loyal.

Militia units also have to make the roll.

Any rebel armies and loyal armies fight until one controls the province. If the rebels win, the province stays independent, if your troops win, it remains yours.

ARMIES AND FLEETS

Armies and fleets can now gain experience. They start as regular troops, rolling 7 or under to kill.

If they survive a battle, then rolling a 1 or a 6 on a six sided dice, makes them become veterans that roll 9 or under to kill. They can try after every battle they survive, until they die or become veterans.

If they survive another battle as veterans, then if they roll 6 on a six sided dice, they become elite, and roll 11 or under to kill. Like before, you try after every battle they survive.

There is no higher than elite. Elite and veteran units will be shown in a different way on the map, I'm not sure how yet.

Armies would now cost 10 gold, and fleets cost 15. Upkeep is now 5 gold per unit.

TOWN HALLS ETC

Town halls cost 5 gold, dockyards cost 10, barracks cost 15 and production centres cost 25 gold.

Town halls increase your income only(see the tax rates for how they do so). Dockyards increase your income and allow you to build fleets in that province. Barracks allow you to build armies in that province and increase your income.

Production centres increase your income more than the others and allow you to build armies and fleets in that province.

OVERALL GOAL

The goal isn't to win, but to have an enjoyable game. If you want to be a just and fair peaceful ruler, then so be it. If you want to be a tyrannical warmonger, so be it.

And the map is the same as the UKNES2 one.

**********************************************

So what do you guys think? I've checked, and I'm pretty confident so long as I restrict this one to CivFanatics only, that I can run it easily enough. It will open once UKNES2 is finished(not for months I hope lol).

Feel free to borrow any ideas, including the map etc.

Nemesis

Well, phooey--I just got here. I'd like to suggest a variation on my WWINES system for combat, it goes by VERY qucikly--I've decided battles with >60 units in under five minutes! In order to have a larger array of units, two dice with bonuses could be used, and unit movement rate could be imployed with the use of provinces.

Production centers, barracks, dockyards and town halls are good ideas and give nations something to do during peacetime. But I don't like the experience idea, it starts to make it too complicated for the combat structure.

Also, World War II would be very easily done on Jason's map, as it is done with Versailles borders. I'd love to take up arms against the huns in Northern France (and stop 'em, too).

I'm in favor of using this map, personally.

Yeah, I forgot to comment on that world map.

I like it, it's quite well laid out.

Nemesis

TRADING SYSTEM:
This is a trading system for the stuff uknemesis wrote.there is only luxury resourses.one resource gives 5 happiness,but a resource that you only have one of gives 7(so there will be much trading).where resources are is shown on the map.

the recources are:

diamonds
gold
spices
gems
southern animal furs(lions,tigers etc.)
northern animal furs(bears,deers etc.)

this was all i could think of now.the resources will be placed on the places they are in the real world

Yes, I suggest that we will make numbers from 0 to 9 for every result for every situation of military clash. Oh and remmeber. We begin in 4000 BC, so in the beggining we will have ONLY ONE PROVICNE OF THEIR CHOICE.

Provinces should be somewhat like in Europa Universalis.

I mean, each one has a resource, a terain type, owner nation, control nation, a city (or a colony or a trading post), and in later times a military base, ethnicity, and religion.

Religion IS VERY IMPORTANT BACK AT THAT TIME.

Cities should have buildings.

Also we need realists. For people to belive that war is bad, their nation, or majority of other nations aroudn them should have several experiences like WWI or even worse. PEACELOVINGNESS IS NOT ALLWOED IN THE FIRST TIMES. Also to spend 6000 or more year period. We hshpould use something like Civilization Year System, so early times will not be as boring as they should be.

There CAN BE NEW NATIONS, just don't overdo it.

Also, your nation knows only provicnes that belong to them, and those that are neighbours to their provicnces. The same thing for provinces held by the army. To take a province you msut send a settler tere. You can only do that to a province near to your territory or on a coastline when the nation which wants to colonize it has it's own coastline.

Oh and Gibraltar seems no to be in place.

I love that map Jason. I would like to participate in this.

Das, personally I think a NES of the type you are talking about will require too many moderators(probably as many as there are players!).

I mean, ethnicity, religion etc? Sure, a quick and easy system of religion might be okay, but ethinicty and everything as well? It's gonna be a damned nightmare to organise!

Plus, we need to start sorting out moderators, cause we need to know how many there will be so we know how complicated it can be(keep it simplistic if there aren't enough mods).

I've got my hands full as it is with the UKNES2(which is currently expanding to include North America), so I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to help mod. I would however love to play the game, but without it being quite so complicated(what about the poor players having to get orders in? It might take hours lol!).

Sorry to hammer your ideas a bit, but I think you're going a bit OTT. Last time I did that resulted in the UKNES, the most annoying game on earth to mod!

Nemesis

I will create the UUs if we use them.

Religion could be very simple:
Your state has 1 big religion. If you take over a neutral province the people there take your religion. If you take an enemy province of a different religion you get a happines penalty and less gold/other penaltys. And if you spend gold on missionarys you could convert people to the states religion. Something like that.

Here:

Every Province under your religion generates gold for you

All of your provinces give you x gold + religion $ of they are not converted. If you convert another nations province it generates 1 gold for you, the other nation doesn't get the religion money.

Conversion formulas will have to be made.

Ethnicity? Why?

religion in a province can be changed by building a church or another religous building.

The religions could be:

Christianity
Judaism
Buddhism
Islam
Taoism (Japan, I think)
Local Religions (like Aztec, etc.)

Any others?

Maybe churches or temples work as protectors against conversion and wonders can be constructed to boost the power of your converters.

Wonders i suppose could cost MASSIVE amounts of money you reveive them when the debt for them is paid off.

Defenders in foreign areas held by your religion could get penalties.

Christianity and The Islamic religions would have to be conversion religion. Like say we get to 30 AD. Your provences can start flipping to Christianity. And in i think some where around 700 AD is when you get Muslims. And that should mean that the Saudia Arabian Penisula becomes Muslim and then you have to Set up from there.

Oh and why in the world would you have ethnicity? How would that help the game? Are you going to have genecides or something like that? Ethnicity has only led to bad things. So who ever offered that idea why? You have to tell us why.

Maybe each religion could affect its nation's government, economy, etc.

Maybe a set of paths that you can choose for the state religion kinda like gov't, maybe research the religion.

ie:
You Know have christianity! Would you like to convert your nation to the new religion?

Each religion could have different conversion stats:
Easy to convert other people to Christianity
Medium to convert them away
Little fanatical support from millitary
(Can be changed if you wanna go all crusades on me)

I think perhaps that each religion should have a holy place, say Rome for Catholics, Mecca for Muslims etc, and if you control this place, then you get a happiness bonus from your people. And if you are in an alliance with the person who owns it, you get a slight happiness bonus. If you are neutral or distrusting of the person who owns it, you get an unhappiness bonus, but you get a bonus of attack if you are attacking the person who holds it.

But that's for a religion idea, I think we should have something slightly different:

You choose your own religion by this method, a flowchart type thing:

1) Is your state religion going to be good or evil, or will you not have one?

2) Is your religion going to have one god or more than one? Or do you believe in no gods at all, but the power of nature?

3) Do you believe in holy war against other religions, or peace to all?

4) Do you believe in the afterlife, or in reincarnation?

5) Who is the highest ranking figure in your religion?

I'm not sure yet how each decision could affect the game, but I know that if you have a religion, and the people believe in the afterlife(or in reincarnation), they're likely to be less worried about death than they would be if they don't. Also, an evil religion could have no war happiness penalty or something, and instead love war, and get a bonus for it, but instead get a -1 loyalty in the case of a rebellion, due to mistrust.

Anyway, just a thought, and then you could name your own religion.

Nemesis

sounds good uknemesis

sounds good uknemesis:goodjob:

never mind i misunderstood and then repeated uk's post above :dork: *doh*

Ethnicity, I mean, do the peopel belong to your nationality. I mean, Russians in Greek provicne could help Russians in case of war, while Greeks i nGReek provicnes are unlikely to.

When you try to create a new nation, people of Korean Naitonality have large chance to try to break free from China./

I will start an ULTRANES when I get back from Oregon (I'll be there from Saturday till next Friday) but here's a sneak peek. It will show Europe and the Mediterranean Sea about 1190 AD (the Third Crusade Era) and the players will be: Castile, Lisbon, Lyons, Paris, England, Saxony, Genoa, Papacy, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Greece, Constantinople, and Arabia. In other words, 15 players. It'll use the UKNES2 System just about, with some minor adjustments...

ho is going to create it?

Do we have the SUPERNES concept banged out yet?

put me down on the shortlist it looks good

I'm not sure that it will ever happen, as Troquelet and I both are designing big NESs(for him the ULTRANES, for me the UKNES2(cause of the expansion it's now big) and the UKNES3).

Also, not that many mods have come forward I think.

Nemesis

ok
what do you have in mind for UKNES3?same map?

Dunno, I'd probably expand it like I did for Jason's NES.

Nemesis

Hey UK, don't be thinking about UKNES3 so soon, Uknes2 is alive and well, isn't it?

hey, definatly count me in when its starts.

i can be a mod in this NES.

I'll Mod i guess.

Any chance I could join? Since this is going to get realy complex quickly, and there arn't many mod's, how about having each week being 1 turn consisting of 5 or 10 years with time in between for diferent moves? At least this way we won't be in the ancient times late next year. :D

I'm in

Or we can do it REAL YEARS are NES years. That way, our children can play the game. And hen their chidrens children. And so on. :rolleyes:

no offense, but that is a kind of lame idea. Count me in

Helo!!!!!!!! Is anyone still playing??!!

not this one