Vehem Runes really does shift too far towards good. Also, if you want to pair the religions like that could you please pair Runes with Esus and Overlords with Empy. Overlords is *much* more evil then Esus, and Runes is *much* less good then the emyprean. It shouldn't be good enough to turn the khazad into good, they sould stay neutral but be shifted mroe towards good.

I was going to make a report but mahazel got there first- the armageddon counter is indeed a large pink square for me too.

yeah ac counter is big pink square:
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9922/civ4screenshot0053vb7.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0053vb7.jpg)

yeah ac counter is big pink square:
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9922/civ4screenshot0053vb7.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0053vb7.jpg)

I'd forgotten that the artwork had been removed from the FPK file - I've added it to Patch B now (so just redownload to fix it).

Ridiculously short lifespan for Patch B I know, but these are a couple of quick fixes and I didn't want to confuse matters too much by having different versions of Patch B. Good news is that they won't break anything.

Patch C (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/FFH2031e-FF030-PatchC.zip)

1. Armageddon counter art added back from old FPK
2. Oghma Kahdi vault creatures correctly get Strong Promotion.

Vehem Runes really does shift too far towards good. Also, if you want to pair the religions like that could you please pair Runes with Esus and Overlords with Empy. Overlords is *much* more evil then Esus, and Runes is *much* less good then the emyprean. It shouldn't be good enough to turn the khazad into good, they sould stay neutral but be shifted mroe towards good.

Main problem with the Khazad was that they were only 16 points away from being Good anyway. A decent Civic would have flipped them.

I've altered Kandros and Arturus to be considerably more Neutral, and reduced Kilmorph again by a very slight margin to make sure that they won't flip from Runes alone. They'll be right on the edge though, so good civics/events will probably push them over if you're not careful.

EDIT:

Order +450
Empyrean +250
Runes + 100
Fellowship +0
Esus -175
Overlords -200
Veil -450

Sound roughly right?

Yeah much better thanks. Also, how easy is it to change a buidling/unit's tech requirement? I want to try out my idea for the Dural which is to move the college and proffessor unit slightly earlier in the tech tree, but with a small increase in cost.

Also, how come none of the Fall Further stuff is in the excel editor? And how do you save changes to the editor anyway, whenever I try it comes up saying read-only blah blah blah, can't save blah blah :S.

Order +450
Empyrean +250
Runes + 100
Fellowship +0
Esus -175
Overlords -200
Veil +450


I am guessing the Veil entry is a typo?

Yeah much better thanks. Also, how easy is it to change a buidling/unit's tech requirement? I want to try out my idea for the Dural which is to move the college and proffessor unit slightly earlier in the tech tree, but with a small increase in cost.

Also, how come none of the Fall Further stuff is in the excel editor? And how do you save changes to the editor anyway, whenever I try it comes up saying read-only blah blah blah, can't save blah blah :S.

It's not in the Excel editor because I don't use that to edit it - just a normal text editor. If you want to learn about modding (rather than just make a quick tweak) it's the better option.

Moving the College/Professor is easy enough. Have a look in XML\Buildings\CIV4BuildingInfos.xml and XML\Units\CIV4UnitInfos.xml. There will be a <PrereqTech> tag on each - just change that to the tech of your choice (all the TECH_NAMEs are listed in XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml if you need to look one up).

I am guessing the Veil entry is a typo?

The Veil are just misunderstood... they're really nice guys.. *cough* (aye - typo)

Can't wait till FfH v0.32 comes out with the new fixes. FF will be much more fun then. I was gonna tell you about the Spider mine event and Strong promotion for the gate creatures for Oghma path for Kadhi, but they are already done, along with Meditation Halls. Woot, three cheers for Vehem! :)

Why does right clicking on the alignment bar cause Wai/ No Wai to appear as a notification?

Also a minor thing- when gaining currency and having access to the Lost Lands civic the advisor pops up with one of those messages about the txt missing.

I have a question: in my last game as Cuali I fought cuali hero (I can`t remember his true name, Misquitz? Misquaki?) vs. Eidolon. Misquitz (25 level, great commander, orthus axe and Gela) had 5 star promotion which schould gave him +100% strength, but when I check the battle info, he has only 70%, and got only 12.5% chance to defeat Eidolon. Eidolon had only one star promotion, were in city, but my Mysquitz had promotion which gave him bonus to city attack. Was it because Eidolons are immune to poison and unholy damage or it was a bug? I don`t have a save, because it was 2 days ago, and I just forgot mention about it.

Why does right clicking on the alignment bar cause Wai/ No Wai to appear as a notification?


Early debug message - it reports on the bAlignmentVisible variable being True or False. (I'd been reading LOLCode at the time, though it seems the current boolean values for that are "Win" and "Fail"). That window is mostly under construction anyway.

Also a minor thing- when gaining currency and having access to the Lost Lands civic the advisor pops up with one of those messages about the txt missing.

Thanks - will sort both.

I have a question: in my last game as Cuali I fought cuali hero (I can`t remember his true name, Misquitz? Misquaki?) vs. Eidolon. Misquitz (25 level, great commander, orthus axe and Gela) had 5 star promotion which schould gave him +100% strength, but when I check the battle info, he has only 70%, and got only 12.5% chance to defeat Eidolon. Eidolon had only one star promotion, were in city, but my Mysquitz had promotion which gave him bonus to city attack. Was it because Eidolons are immune to poison and unholy damage or it was a bug? I don`t have a save, because it was 2 days ago, and I just forgot mention about it.

Could well be - immunity to poison isn't useful all that often (until .032 when it starts inflicting "Poisoned" again) - but this would be one of those times. Eidolons are tough in general, but when they're ignoring part of your strength, they're very difficult to kill no matter how well promoted you are.

Last patch before Friday unless anything game-stopping turns up. Thanks to those people who have downloaded and played B and C today and those I've spoken to in #Erebus - the feedback was very useful. I'm now switching to working on the content for FF031 which hopefully I'll be releasing shortly after FfH032 (almost caught up :D)

This one will break saves I believe - so finish your current games first.

Patch D for 030 (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/FFH2031e-FF030-PatchD.zip)

1. Khazad made more Neutral (Alignment 25 instead of 150).
2. Religion alignment shifts tweaked.
3. Treasure Vault dungeon event now grants gold correctly
4. Lich dungeon event now spawns Lich correctly (don't worry - he's not as bad as Barbatos...)
5. Lost Lands strategy text added
6. All new magic items can now be picked up/passed around correctly
7. Kitteh no can has a debug message

Vehem would it be possible to get you to drop a small txt file with the patch notes into the zips when you release?

Two things, Vehem, to do with Workers. Firstly, Worker Boats cannot get promotions, as they are not 'workers'. Secondly, could you please reimplement Settlers getting Apt. 2? (or even 3) I found it extremely useful.

Vehem I no longer have the box on the left side with the mana telling me how many of each I have.

if I revert to the original CvMainInterface.py file then they reappear.

Also when hovering over the Newts Draught I see TXT_KEY_SPELL_NEWTS_DRAUGHT_HELP

Two things, Vehem, to do with Workers. Firstly, Worker Boats cannot get promotions, as they are not 'workers'. Secondly, could you please reimplement Settlers getting Apt. 2? (or even 3) I found it extremely useful.

Not sure which promotions you'd like Workboats to get really. They're a one shot unit that does their job once and instantly - then disappears. They generally shouldn't be around long enough to build up promotions. If you're using them as naval scouts, then they really should be staying slow anyway.

Don't think I saw the version of Xienwolf's mod where settlers get Aptitude - what was the purpose of that?

EDIT: Just had a look to check for myself. If I read it right, it's just so they can get Sentry/Mobility/Hardy? I'd usually expect the city to be built before they could amass much experience though...

Vehem I no longer have the box on the left side with the mana telling me how many of each I have.


Anyone else got this problem? Shows up ok on mine. Can you check that the "scores" aren't hidden (one of the buttons in the lower right) as this also hides the Manalist.



Also when hovering over the Newts Draught I see TXT_KEY_SPELL_NEWTS_DRAUGHT_HELP

Thanks - I've added it now. For reference it acts like a spell-staff. When drunk, it allows you to cast again. Might alter that to act like the Healing Potion (50% chance of reuse).

Anyone else got this problem? Shows up ok on mine. Can you check that the "scores" aren't hidden (one of the buttons in the lower right) as this also hides the Manalist.

The score list is showing but if I use the CvMainInterface.py from patch B or higher I lose the mana display.

Not sure which promotions you'd like Workboats to get really. They're a one shot unit that does their job once and instantly - then disappears. They generally shouldn't be around long enough to build up promotions. If you're using them as naval scouts, then they really should be staying slow anyway.

Don't think I saw the version of Xienwolf's mod where settlers get Aptitude - what was the purpose of that?

EDIT: Just had a look to check for myself. If I read it right, it's just so they can get Sentry/Mobility/Hardy? I'd usually expect the city to be built before they could amass much experience though...


Well, the basic idea was that they could get Hardy I/II/III and such so they get to their destination quicker and safer. And as for worker boats, I often have some waiting until my cultural borders increase, so Hardy would be useful then.

Not sure which promotions you'd like Workboats to get really. They're a one shot unit that does their job once and instantly - then disappears. They generally shouldn't be around long enough to build up promotions. If you're using them as naval scouts, then they really should be staying slow anyway.

Don't think I saw the version of Xienwolf's mod where settlers get Aptitude - what was the purpose of that?

EDIT: Just had a look to check for myself. If I read it right, it's just so they can get Sentry/Mobility/Hardy? I'd usually expect the city to be built before they could amass much experience though...



Anyone else got this problem? Shows up ok on mine. Can you check that the "scores" aren't hidden (one of the buttons in the lower right) as this also hides the Manalist.




Thanks - I've added it now. For reference it acts like a spell-staff. When drunk, it allows you to cast again. Might alter that to act like the Healing Potion (50% chance of reuse).

I had settlers start with Aptitude 1 & 2 if I recall correctly. Did both of them so that they would gain the XP faster. The idea was that they could gain a few points of movement before reaching their destination, or increase their sight range.

The score list is showing but if I use the CvMainInterface.py from patch B or higher I lose the mana display.

K - check in Python\EntryPoints and Python\Screens - see if there are two versions of that file. Shouldn't be that, but it's the only thing that jumps out at me that could cause that problem at the moment.

I don't know what the problem was but I reinstalled the mod and now it works.

Just a thought-

Giving Settlers Aptitude and their own advancement tree might be neat....rather than settling them immediately, maybe one could level them up to receive some Settler-Specific promotions?

Settler L-1: Free Granary on city creation?
Settler L-2: Free Walls?

Etc....

Is that doable/even preferable?

Talk amongs yourselves...:)

Or maybe as the settler level increases the higher the population the new city starts with, to represent the settler party gradually growing over time.

So for e.g.

Level 2 - 2 pop
Level 3 - 3 pop

Both are possible, but only with more additions to the Promotion Info file. And in each case it is adding items which I already have planned.

Vehem. Ever though about manual, somewhat in style of current ffh one?
(mostly new units and civs).

Or maybe as the settler level increases the higher the population the new city starts with, to represent the settler party gradually growing over time.

So for e.g.

Level 2 - 2 pop
Level 3 - 3 pop

So the settlers' experience reflects their ability to reproduce? o.o

i say better city tile
lvl 2 +1 gold
lvl 3 +2 gold

I definitely like Slvynn's idea. Giving the settler a larger pop bonus, or free hammers (buildings) is a little TO dramatic, and could lead to balance issues... Also, they dont really make sense, DharmaMcLaren brings up why that doesnt make any sense... More experience ='s 1000 more people... Thats some impressive reproduction there. The extra gold on the tile could point to the settlers ability to see better locations for the city, and better city planning to begin with, which means a more fundamentally economic city.

I disagree. The extra levels don't indicate more fertile settlers, it signifies a larger group.

Giving extra gold on the plot does not sound like a good idea to me at all. That would be a permanent bonus that you could get no other way, while extra population or a few buildings would be something that would have a diminishing effect. It would just have to be adjusted so that having a settler wait around for free xp wouldn't result a more advanced city than if it had settled earlier and had more time to develop. One population per level is too much, but 1 pop per 3 levels probably wouldn't be.

He's right, I said in the post that the expirience represented more people joining the settling party - not reproduction. People gather from nearnby towns and villages to join the settlers before they set of into the wildermess.

Eh, sorry bout that then. I see the error of my ways... :(

In all seriousness though, that makes more sense now. I still think the extra hammers is to strong, but the gold also would allow for the permanent bonus that would be VERY valuable in the early stages of a game. A little to valuable...

Meh, by the sounds of it, Xienwolf has already got something cooking up anyways... we are probably just beating a dead horse with this one. =]

Eh, sorry bout that then. I see the error of my ways... :(

In all seriousness though, that makes more sense now. I still think the extra hammers is to strong, but the gold also would allow for the permanent bonus that would be VERY valuable in the early stages of a game. A little to valuable...

Meh, by the sounds of it, Xienwolf has already got something cooking up anyways... we are probably just beating a dead horse with this one. =]

yeah, and i think that add pop/hammers is too over.... , how experienced settler can build granary at 1st day of his settling, its building, it should be built.
small commerce bonus is good tho and will also help little at early stages of game, while make less differene in end of it.

not meaning to distract ya'll at all. was just thinking about....(i know, i know, my wife recommends I stop doing that) equipment and the drops from lairs. In the game we already tend to get several different weapons on one hero. We have added more equipment and great job of not making them more weapons. But is it possible to code in something, be it python or xml to add equipment flags to units? Pick up something and it sets the flag not allowing you to pick up anything else that has the same flag? Of course, dropping item removes the flag, so you could pick up the new item. If we could get such a mechanic going the multitude of items could grow a lot.

Then there is the problem of what to do when you don't want to just leave an item on the ground. Backpack. Maybe only available to those with adventurer promotion but allows you to carry items without using them.

hmm code inventory slots, code a backpack, code the game to know what is where. Someone should code me to keep quiet and just say thanks for the great mod.

He's right, I said in the post that the expirience represented more people joining the settling party - not reproduction. People gather from nearnby towns and villages to join the settlers before they set of into the wildermess.

Towns and villages, however, are represented by towns and villages on the map (and tribal villages). That population has to come from somewhere... if you promote a settler in the middle of the wilderness and a thousand people join it, it's not really "wilderness", is it? Forgive me if I'm being nitpicky, but I don't see how that's realistic when there are already core game mechanics in place to represent population in a tile.

I like the idea of letting the Skilled promotion give settlers the ability to build cities with pallisades, pagan temples, maybe even obelisks and elder councils. It would also make sense in the late game, when you can often expect units to begin with a little experience: they wouldn't go off and leave a shining metropolis to found a primitive village, they'd take supplies to get up and running straight away.

not meaning to distract ya'll at all. was just thinking about....(i know, i know, my wife recommends I stop doing that) equipment and the drops from lairs. In the game we already tend to get several different weapons on one hero. We have added more equipment and great job of not making them more weapons. But is it possible to code in something, be it python or xml to add equipment flags to units? Pick up something and it sets the flag not allowing you to pick up anything else that has the same flag? Of course, dropping item removes the flag, so you could pick up the new item. If we could get such a mechanic going the multitude of items could grow a lot.

Then there is the problem of what to do when you don't want to just leave an item on the ground. Backpack. Maybe only available to those with adventurer promotion but allows you to carry items without using them.

hmm code inventory slots, code a backpack, code the game to know what is where. Someone should code me to keep quiet and just say thanks for the great mod.

The easiest way (I think) to implement an "inventory" would be to let Adventurer units have two spells requiring an item: the usual "drop", and an additional "stop using". Casting "stop using" would remove the weapon promotion, add a "Not Using X" promotion, and allow the Adventurer to cast "use item" (which would remove "Not Using X" and add the weapon promotion again) if he was able to use it again.
That way the buttons to use an item would still be on the unit, as though they were in his "backpack", but you wouldn't need to code any new interface features or anything.

(Double post)

what a great modmod, i love it!
thank you very much!

i much more agree with Dharma than with Kol.7
i still thinking that to give to starting tile some bonus (even hammers, instead of commerce)
will me most proper thing.
Settlement cant start with pre-built buildings, they still must to be built. Yes some wonders place building in city but its just wonder effect.
Giving + production on starting tile will be very realistic thing to immplement. Due to proper and better city location, effic, etc.

I think experience for Settlers will end up with stuff with broken, or almost broken. City tile producing extra yield, or Settler producing cities with pop>1, even cities which start with buildings. The last one might be the most balanced one, but the buildings need to be really crappy, like Palisade as Dharma suggested. Any of the other buildings might end up broken. By the way, I'm of course talking about early or even very early game, where one extra food or an Obelisk do matter. Maybe do it so that Settlers can't gain any XP for the first 100 turns in the game, or something like that.

Well the easy fix to that one is to make it so that the promotions which provide a better city come later in the tech tree, along with unique versions of the settler itself which naturally provide the improved cities.

i was thinking it would work well if buildings or extra population promotions became avilable at different techs. It could also, help to bring a bit of use to some of the less useful techs.

maybe add the cost of whatever buildings are added to the cost of the new settler so in the long run you actually paid for it, just in a different city. Think prefab.

The computer needs to predict the future? Since it can't know what promotions you're going to give the Settler, perhaps (this would require a lot of coding for a relatively minor change) if the unit "remembered" where it had been built, those promotions could cost the number of hammers required to build that building, and subtract them from that city, and outside cultural borders the settler could cut down a forest or something (be inactive for a couple of turns) to get the materials required.
As I said, though, a lot of code for a minor change...

Well the easy fix to that one is to make it so that the promotions which provide a better city come later in the tech tree, along with unique versions of the settler itself which naturally provide the improved cities.

You needn't have new settlers, just make the promotions require a later tech. Like a promotion allowing settlers to start a city with a Monument could require Philosphy perhaps, and an Elder Council could require Education and Mysticism, etc.
I think that's what you were suggesting anyway, but I don't think new settler units are needed, unless that's to do with the Python(?) changes needed to do the actual building thing.

I've just had messages from both Tarquelne and Arctic circle regarding combining all of the additional civ mods (FF, Scions of Patria and Kunningas/Fjalltindr giant civ).

These two are fairly radical civlizations, but the effort put into both to ensure they remain playable and balanced seems to be significant. Neither are considered finished yet (to be fair, neither are some of FF's) but Tarquelne and Arctic Circle have said they'd like them to be considered to be included in FF.

As always with a big change, I'm posting the possibility of it here first to get some feedback. I'm also going to offer a compromise to those who may not favour the idea. I'm basically looking at ways to allow a player to block *any* civ (original, FF and later additions) from being present in the game. Effectively, you'd have the option of selecting the civs you do not want to be present in the random selection. If you don't like Lizardmen for example, you could just remove the Cualli and Mazatl and still have a random selection from the others. I don't have a reliable way to do this yet, but it should be possible based on the alignment code already developed.

As I was reading your post I was thinking "wouldn't it be good to have a way to block civs"
That's a grand idea- would be great to implement anyway- especially if you want a nice random game, enjoy the varied leaders but have just played vs a civ and don't feel like seeing them again right away.

So long as they are well designed and complement the canon reasonably well, I'm pretty much "the more the merrier". I'd still like to see the Werewolf civ mod get added into Fall Further as well....and adding werewolves, Giants and the Undead at once is very reminiscent of a real, honest-to-gods off-the-shelf expansion, isn't it? :)

And it would be wonderful to slip into the FF umbrella, I have guided at least three friends through the process of adding Fall Further to their FFH experience. And while they are no computer-illiterates, they do seem to have the opinion that they prefer it as simple as possible. So I agree with what Vehem said in an PM, the absolute majority only get around to patch FFH with one set of 'new civilizations'. And Fall Further are currently the absolute ruler in this area.

Let me again say that I belive in balance vs other civs, and once I get a download that is worth showing, I will listen to those that dare play it when it comes to balance issues. Of course, it can take a month or two as minimum.

If given an option to block civs in some of your games, i see no reason not to add them to be honest.

By the way, i've got a balance issue for the mazatl's new system: with the -25% commerce from trade routes by lost lands, you now need atleast 2 commerce per trade route to get any gain whatsoever, since these numbers are rounded down. In other words: if you change to lost lands without having built barter houses and inns in most of your cities, you will suffer quite a big income hit.

I also feel 'the more the merrier'!

Just as Arctic Circle said, I only have one modmod added to FFH - and this is it! I don't want to add more modmods for fear of compatability issues. So... anything you can include - great!!!

The option to exclude civilizations from the random selection would be really great as well - while there is no civ I absolutely hate, I always seem to end up playing against the same ones again and again when I select randomly (which I mostly do).

It'd also be good for when you want to play without the AC. Its so annoying having the sheaim come up without it on, they really suck wothout having their planar gates.

If you can keep everything balanced, it could potentially add more variation to the game (more civs = higher chance of AI being different civs).

The idea to block a civ is great though. I am in favor of that for sure. For example, if your playing a Pangaea map, maybe you want to block Lanun...

Well, I'm in favor. :)

One of the first questions for my previous (little) modules is generally "Will it work with Fall Further?"
And I like the criteria Vehem laid out for inclusion, and agree the previous comments about balance and canon.

I'm excited about an option to turn some civs off from game to game. Especially for multiplayer - Through most of .30 we couldn't play with random civs.

I've got a question for FF players:

How would you prefer a non-modular FF mod to be installed? The easiest way would be a zip containing the necessary files. Just over-write the base FF files with the mods files. But you'd have to backup/backout of such an installation manually.

Do you think that'd be good enough? Or would you want a .bat or installer to automate things?

I prefer manual, but I also don't trust installers. (I tend to have multiple installs in non-standard locations.)

As always with a big change, I'm posting the possibility of it here first to get some feedback. I'm also going to offer a compromise to those who may not favour the idea. I'm basically looking at ways to allow a player to block *any* civ (original, FF and later additions) from being present in the game. Effectively, you'd have the option of selecting the civs you do not want to be present in the random selection. If you don't like Lizardmen for example, you could just remove the Cualli and Mazatl and still have a random selection from the others. I don't have a reliable way to do this yet, but it should be possible based on the alignment code already developed.

Now that sounds like a good idea. Not only might I be able to go a game without Faeryl for a neighbor, but I could avoid having anything totally unsuitable to the map type I'm playing on show up while still making the opponents random.

Brilliant, if you can pull it off.

Would it be too much to ask for separate options to remove civs from being human and AI playable when loading the game? I often get tired of playing the same civ over and over again when I choose one randomly, but that doesn't mean I would mind having the civ as a rival. Also, you might sometimes want to block an AI from getting a civ that is too strong on the selected map type but wouldn't mind the advantage yourself; conversely, you might want the challenge of fighting civs that are much better suited for the map.

I am all for it, and heck if I find I don't like a civ I can always turn it off in the XML with just a quick edit. So I won't be heartbroken if you can't get the option to turn civs off to work.

By the way, i've got a balance issue for the mazatl's new system: with the -25% commerce from trade routes by lost lands, you now need atleast 2 commerce per trade route to get any gain whatsoever, since these numbers are rounded down. In other words: if you change to lost lands without having built barter houses and inns in most of your cities, you will suffer quite a big income hit.


In my last 2 games as Mazatl I had lots of money, food and hammers in cities, and I think the Lost Lands are even more powerfull than before. With only 6 cities (2 were on the coast) I could have all Wonders in 4 to 7 tunrs (I`m playing on Imperor level, normal speed) in my capital which had 45 population in 230 turn (city of thousand slums is really powerfull in mazatl hands). I think LL should give only +25% to food (with swamps you have lot of food), +50% or less to hammers, but you can change -25% to 0% for commerce, because it is true that in the beggining it could cut your incomes. On the other hand, when you have Trade + Inn + barter house + bazar of mammon(in huge capital with many merchant specialists) + coast cities with lighthouse and Great Lighthouse + Optics (have I omit something?) ...

i was playing the "rainforest" maptype, so no sea trade boosts for me. Still, i agree with 25% less food (you've got way to much food anyway), and even out the commerce

Works for me, the more the merrier if you're content that you can develop them

Vehem what you think about boosting Kahdi mammon path more alittle to even odds with Oghma...
Assasin Mammon UU (Recon path, Assasins sure can have tide connection to Mammon, as well as to Esus),.
UU, Acts as assasin, but gets command 1-2 promos aviable.?

About new civs if original devs of civs agree i mabby can draw some fast and easy concept sketch/ units reworking , like i did abit before in this thread. Can help with logos as well, if get ur permission.

Vehem PLEASE add lizard assasin model for lizie civs! It is really weird when you change lizard hunter into female human spy, and then into Mizquitz :|

Its just a lizard dressed as a human female spy. They are that good.

Remember the minseries "V"? They were all lizards disguised as humans.

Vehem what you think about boosting Kahdi mammon path more alittle to even odds with Oghma...
Assasin Mammon UU (Recon path, Assasins sure can have tide connection to Mammon, as well as to Esus),.
UU, Acts as assasin, but gets command 1-2 promos aviable.?

About new civs if original devs of civs agree i mabby can draw some fast and easy concept sketch/ units reworking , like i did abit before in this thread. Can help with logos as well, if get ur permission.

Heh, a unit like that could be fun. Steal workers out of the enemies cities. They thought they'd be safe there, now they know better :mischief:.

About new civs if original devs of civs agree i mabby can draw some fast and easy concept sketch/ units reworking , like i did abit before in this thread. Can help with logos as well, if get ur permission.

I am not sure if this is directed towards me and Tal, but there are threads for both Scions and Jotnar.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273769

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275026

If you want to help out - feel free, but as far as I know neither me or Tal are making our own 3D models. We use existing and (more Tal then I) use the crudest methods available to make them look cool. So sketching totally original isn't worth much unless you can also make the skins - but in such case you are very wellcome to help me out.. ;) Right now its more a question of 'to steal, loan, borrow and modify to make my units look the way I need them to'. For example I am glancing at what 'troll' models I can steal.

PM me if you want. I normally answer twice a day.

I am not sure if this is directed towards me and Tal, but there are threads for both Scions and Jotnar.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273769

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275026

If you want to help out - feel free, but as far as I know neither me or Tal are making our own 3D models. We use existing and (more Tal then I) use the crudest methods available to make them look cool. So sketching totally original isn't worth much unless you can also make the skins - but in such case you are very wellcome to help me out.. ;) Right now its more a question of 'to steal, loan, borrow and modify to make my units look the way I need them to'. For example I am glancing at what 'troll' models I can steal.

PM me if you want. I normally answer twice a day.

I'll check that out and we'll see what is possible :)

Heh, a unit like that could be fun. Steal workers out of the enemies cities. They thought they'd be safe there, now they know better :mischief:.

hehe yeah, stealing (taking control over) workers from good defended enemy cities is actually fits mammon kahdi very much.
Atm Oghma > Mammon path allitle imo balance wise. Such units also can be cool lore wise. Kahd with his drive to control anything, trying to control directly, and if fails - to kill. So assasins who sneak to enemy cities talk to "proper" people by giving them choice - join or die, and if victim agree to join power of kahdi instead of dying he opens his mind, and joins (being joined) to gllorious Kahdi nation :D.

Its just a lizard dressed as a human female spy. They are that good.

Remember the minseries "V"? They were all lizards disguised as humans.

Aye - how else are they going to get close enough to a human target?

*cough*

*adds it to the list*

If you want to help out - feel free, but as far as I know neither me or Tal are making our own 3D models. We use existing and (more Tal then I) use the crudest methods available to make them look cool. So sketching totally original isn't worth much unless you can also make the skins - but in such case you are very wellcome to help me out.. ;)

I'll just say now that Slyvnn's skinning/texture work is quite impressive - he did all of the intricate patterning on the Kahdi wizards for instance.

Right now its more a question of 'to steal, loan, borrow and modify to make my units look the way I need them to'. For example I am glancing at what 'troll' models I can steal.

That sounds exactly like my approach to the first FF release :D Spent a few days plundering the Doviello/Amurites to make the Archos, then stole the Chislev/Dural wholesale from the downloads section. You do find that you pick up a few things as you go along though - I'm now at the point where I can happily switch parts of models around and even created the head for Kahd in blender (using Nik Nak's follower head as a start point). Modding can get... addictive.

Hmm - may have hit a hard-limit on the number of Game-options available with the "Disabling Civs" plan. Adding 6 options to disable the existing FF civs works well, provided I move the options higher in the GameOptions file - but even then it "bumps" the last 6 options off the bottom of the list. If I add the disabling options to the end of the file, they just don't appear. Going to ask Kael if he's come across anything similar.

The other option I'd been toying with is a simple external program that reads the XML, finds all the Civ names and gives you a check box to decide whether they should be (a) human playable and (b) AI playable.

Its just a lizard dressed as a human female spy. They are that good.

Remember the minseries "V"? They were all lizards disguised as humans.

I was tempted to make that joke. Since it's been made I think I'll go for "Flexible accessorizing is the key to elegant but inexpensive fashion."

Re: Slvynn
We use existing and (more Tal then I) use the crudest methods available to make them look cool.

Chop chop chop! :)

The art's pretty much done for the Scions. That is to say, it's all there but it could certainly use improvement. I like the void-black skins for most of the units that have it, with the notable exception of the Velite.

So do take a look (or I might post some screeenshots) and if anything catches your interest help would be greatly appreciated. Some of the units are much rougher than others and overall the units would be considerably better if their colors/styles were better unified.

Hmm - may have hit a hard-limit on the number of Game-options available with the "Disabling Civs" plan.

Perhaps group the civs? Sets of 3?


...a simple external program that reads the XML, ... a check box to decide whether they should be (a) human playable and (b) AI playable.

That'd be great! And there might be other things such a program could do, too. (Feature creep! Feature creep!)

Hmm - may have hit a hard-limit on the number of Game-options available....

Nope - actually I was just being an idiot for a few hours. Finally realized what was wrong and now have options to block any of the individual Fall Further civs from being randomly selected.

I'm going to try to work out a way to hide the options before I add the remaining 19 Civs, making the "Disable Civ" options only visible when you select the "View Disabled Civs" option (again - not sure if this is possible, but it should keep the list tidier if I can manage it).

The screenshot shows a 30 Civ game with only the Chislev enabled out of the new civs. You can see that it's reselecting civs that are already present rather than including the disabled Civs - as it should with so many civs in game.

EDIT: (the human civ is actually Lanun, despite my name still being "Kahd" - I tend to set my name to the leadername when playing multiplayer and I played the Kahdi most recently).

Vehem you didnt replied about Kahd-mammon assasin unit?
Seems mammon Kahd will be set with it and it fits favor/lore wise.
Should i do a unit (i will chop'n'chop some unit and will retexture it properly :P)

haha

look at my mighty obelisc i captured in my current ffh2-ff game :)

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8724/unbenannt1le8.th.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=unbenannt1le8.jpg)

i almost feel like cheating...

A FF-only version of the Scions of Patria has been posted:
Download here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9495)
Discussion thread here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273769)

look at my mighty obelisc i captured in my current ffh2-ff game

did you capture this city from AI ? If you did, then may be something wrong in Obelisk event. In Obelisk event, obelisk can get +2 food. But it should only happen once. Could be reported as FFH2 bugs.

did you capture this city from AI ? If you did, then may be something wrong in Obelisk event. In Obelisk event, obelisk can get +2 food. But it should only happen once. Could be reported as FFH2 bugs.

Aye - the obelisks can get the event multiple times (FfH issue as you said). I've had a mighty +8 beaker obelisk of knowledge - but never anything quite that bad :D

yes, it's from an ai.
the ai only had one city for >300 turns in a marathon game and it was at war with almost everyone else. maybe the obelisc event was the only one this particularly ai could get?

Can't get 032 through Gameflood at all at the moment (first time I've ever had trouble with it) so I'm not going to be beating any records for update time today. Will update here as soon as possible.

I've got 032 through the torrent, but just noticed there's no 032 DLL source up yet - so might still be a while before I get FF updated. Will do the XML/Python now though.

You can always GUESS what his DLL changes were by the changelog ;)

Hey guys take a break and play a bit;)

You can PLAY this thing?

Hot damn!

You can PLAY this thing?

I thought they removed that feature in 030?

:lol::lol:

I have to admit, the modding bug is quite infectious. I started with just an XML module and now I'm doing a civilization mod that is already starting to break the bounds of what you can do in XML. It's just a lot of fun to add your own touch to a game, instead of having to sit back and say "You know, THIS would make the game a lot better".

Well - I think it's mostly merged now on the Python/XML side. I've just got the UnitInfos to do and I need to be more awake to do that than I am at the moment (long night last night - Vehem need sleep). If the DLL source turns up, I'll try to finish off merging tomorrow afternoon.

I just thought I'd note, workers gain XP well past 100, something a friend of mine thought shouldnt be possible. It is awsome.

^.^ Ive started naming any worker that gets all the workrate boosts and mobility 1 and 2 special names... Oh. and the one that killed 5 goblins. "The Goblinshaper" ^.^(Was lizzies)

Leme tell ya. Mobility 2 max work rate boosted shapers build trails FAST...

I found a tresaure map, but treasure chest location was on the ice.

I found a tresaure map, but treasure chest location was on the ice.

I haven't included that part of Marnok's mod - the treasure map should just reveal some of the map and give you gold. Have you installed his over the top?

I just thought I'd note, workers gain XP well past 100, something a friend of mine thought shouldnt be possible. It is awsome.

With Aptitude III, they can get up to 130 xp free.

I haven't included that part of Marnok's mod - the treasure map should just reveal some of the map and give you gold. Have you installed his over the top?


:wallbash: Sorry, it wasn`t post for this topic :blush: I had open 5 cards with FFH topics (with Marnok too), and just post it in wrong place :D I`m playing just too much different modmod. But your is the best ;)

First attempt didn't merge smoothly - going to have to do it by hand. Struggling for time a little at the moment - I'm moving house on Wednesday and have spent much of today hunting for furniture (I have a new sofa - yay!).

Will give it another shot tomorrow.

EDIT: Scrap this - changed my mind. The updated download is below.

Kael already stated that there is new music in the main download so that the Media Pack doesn't need to touch any code. Now the media pack does nothing but replace all of the 1 frame movies in the main download with the full BIK's. Thus you don't need to wait on that particular piece, because it only overwrites files which you aren't touching.

Kael already stated that there is new music in the main download so that the Media Pack doesn't need to touch any code. Now the media pack does nothing but replace all of the 1 frame movies in the main download with the full BIK's. Thus you don't need to wait on that particular piece, because it only overwrites files which you aren't touching.

Good to know - makes that bit a lot easier.

Change of plans - releasing it now.

Version 031 for FFH2032a (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8500)

1. Updated for 032
2. Natane added (Chislev leader, Daughter of Absaroke)
3. Options added to disable any FF race

From Previous Patches

4. Khazad made more Neutral (Alignment 25 instead of 150).
5. Religion alignment shifts tweaked.
6. Treasure Vault dungeon event now grants gold correctly
7. Lich dungeon event now spawns Lich correctly (don't worry - he's not as bad as Barbatos...)
8. Lost Lands strategy text added
9. All new magic items can now be picked up/passed around correctly
10. Kitteh no can has a debug message
11. Armageddon counter art added back from old FPK
12. Oghma Kahdi vault creatures correctly get Strong Promotion.
13. Kahdi Gate builds twice as quickly with Spiritual
14. Meditation Hall builds twice as quickly with Spiritual
15. Thade is now a Disciple unit
16. Thade chance per spell sphere increased from 12.5% to 20%
17. Meditation Hall allows a sage
18. Meditation Hall grants 1 happiness with Incense
19. Monument to Avarice builds twice as quickly with Gold resource
20. Min/Max Alignments shifted to -500/+500
21. Numerical Alignment now displayed on score list (and when right clicking alignment meter
22. Armageddon counter now displays the "Raw Counter" and "Counter Limit"
23. Fire-style Armageddon counter readded, displaying the percentage (city screen issue resolved.
24. Religion Alignment shift rebalanced for new scale (Order/Ashen +/- 500, Empyrean/Esus +/- 250, Runes/Overlords +/- 125)
25. Kahdi Phalanx and Immortal enabled (only Champion should be blocked).
26. Kahdi Rider replaced Horse Archer.
27. Hianthrogh and Kahd no longer have gender-identity issues.
28. Kahd can no longer adopt Fellowship of the Leaves.
29. Kahd likes the Great Library now (instead of Prophecy of Ragnarok)
30. Baby spider are ANIMAL_INVISIBLE now, as with Giant spider (and no - Mother can't have it too :p)
31. Kahdi arcane upgrade costs scaled back
32. Mammon-Kahd should now be available if you selected the Mammon path.
33. Gnosling Knowledge gain TextKey fixed.
34. Gnosling Knowledge gain amount reduced (now 2 x opponents level)
35. Kahd cannot build Abashi.

:goodjob: thx for the quick update
i can't play ffh without the "Explorable Lairs" funktion anymore :)

the only problem i have now is how i can get Grey Fox's Interface Upgrade to work with FF :sad:

Nice. Since this was released before Broader Alignments or xienwolf's xml modcomp, it probably will be the base for my modmod

Any chance you'll include FFHBUG and/or unit stats in the next version? :please:

I would also recommend bringing in Grey Fox's Interface Upgrade, but I'm afraid that will probably make things more difficult when I'm adding new features. Some stuff there is hardcoded.

Change of plans - releasing it now.

Arg! I was looking forward to having a several days of "No Scions update 'cuz FF isn't out yet!" :eek:


A special "Yay!" for the included civs option.

Any chance you'll include FFHBUG and/or unit stats in the next version? :please:

I would also recommend bringing in Grey Fox's Interface Upgrade, but I'm afraid that will probably make things more difficult when I'm adding new features. Some stuff there is hardcoded.

I've asked Grey Fox if I can make use of his latest creation - it does look quite stunning. All of the components you've mentioned are definitely of interest - just going to be struggling for time in the near future so I'm planning on mostly just maintaining the mod and keeping it up-to-date until I have time to make some actual additions to it.

That being said - I do still have a few ideas to work on yet...

Arg! I was looking forward to having a several days of "No Scions update 'cuz FF isn't out yet!" :eek:

Hehe - sorry :D I know the feeling.

Hmm...how does the Decius alignment event work with the Broader ALignment component of the mod?

I could test this myself, I've been spending much too much time playing FfH when I should have been doing homework. I decided to put the CD away until I've finished. (Now does this mean I'll spend time on HW, or on Solitaire and Reversi?)

Hmm...how does the Decius alignment event work with the Broader ALignment component of the mod?

I could test this myself, I've been spending much too much time playing FfH when I should have been doing homework. I decided to put the CD away until I've finished. (Now does this mean I'll spend time on HW, or on Solitaire and Reversi?)

Doesn't yet I'd imagine - will take a look.

Just out of interest, could you please decrease or remove the alignment penalty for Feast? It doesn't seem right that a Good Vampire Civ would be penalised. After all, an Evil Vampire would feast on anyone. A Neutral Vampire would probably do the same. But I think a Good Vampire would only feast on criminals. Maybe the alignment decrease should be removed/changed to 1 and decrease the crime rate too?

Oh, and a minor cosmetic issue from 0.30 - The Kahdi Immortal's picture on the Tech Tree and Civiliopedia was a Worker. Has that been addressed?

Just out of interest, could you please decrease or remove the alignment penalty for Feast? It doesn't seem right that a Good Vampire Civ would be penalised. After all, an Evil Vampire would feast on anyone. A Neutral Vampire would probably do the same. But I think a Good Vampire would only feast on criminals. Maybe the alignment decrease should be removed/changed to 1 and decrease the crime rate too?

Hmm - getting into some grey-area morality here. If a real world person kills 50 people, but all 50 of those people are considered serious criminals by the state, is the killer a "bad man"? What would the victims of the criminals say? What would the families of the criminals say? Opinion of the state? Of an outside observer?

Note that this is purely rhetorical to illustrate that different people are going to have differing views on whether such actions are "good" or "evil". For the sake of simplicity I'm going to stick with "Eating your Citizens is Bad".

I'm guessing this is from an "Order-Calabim" style of play? I've played it myself and actually love it, but also loved the fact that the Order can be distinctly evil in the hands of some civilizations.

Oh, and a minor cosmetic issue from 0.30 - The Kahdi Immortal's picture on the Tech Tree and Civiliopedia was a Worker. Has that been addressed?

Thanks - hadn't noticed previously, but will sort it for the next patch.

Hmm - getting into some grey-area morality here. If a real world person kills 50 people, but all 50 of those people are considered serious criminals by the state, is the killer a "bad man"? What would the victims of the criminals say? What would the families of the criminals say? Opinion of the state? Of an outside observer?

Note that this is purely rhetorical to illustrate that different people are going to have differing views on whether such actions are "good" or "evil". For the sake of simplicity I'm going to stick with "Eating your Citizens is Bad".

I'm guessing this is from an "Order-Calabim" style of play? I've played it myself and actually love it, but also loved the fact that the Order can be distinctly evil in the hands of some civilizations.


I think that in a Good (Order or Empyrean) Calabim state, being eaten by a Vampire would be the death penalty, which other Civs may also practice (especially the Order: They stone people to death!). And this wasn't neccesarily an Order Calabim. With Decius, it can now be just a 'Good Calabim', but I was thinking of Order Calabim, yes.

Vehem, again i asking about of your likeness to add mammon assasin unit for kadhi, as we discussed above. Should i do model (retextured chanter) ?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=264496&page=54



Also i adressed that immortal worker pic, but you have alot job to do. :P

Also had idea of another unique gate unit that can summon some unique creature (like malakimns sand lion). that adds alot of favor, direct summoning for Kahdi.
(Gate unit A can summon unit B)

also i bit advanced with Kahdi pic. May be will finish this weekend. As i told you - that need alot of free time, good mood and inspiration. :))

But I think a Good Vampire would only feast on criminals.

I note that the supply of people available for Feasting doesn't change from Evil to Neutral to Good.

The catch, I think, could very well be in how "criminal" gets defined among a bunch of FFH2 vampires. "Did not volunteer to be consumed in order to fight the hellspawn," is a real possibility.

So... what's the new "iDelay" do?
You could make a copy of the "Feast" spell and add an Alignment pre-req in the Good range, remove the Alignment penalty, but have it take longer. (Make the vamp immobile for awhile?) The delay/immobility reflects that it's taking a while to scrounge up "real" criminals.

"Just Execution of Criminals - No, Really - in the Name of the Greater Good and After All Due Process of Law or Custom and Without Prejudice or Self-Centered Malice" would be a great name. Though it could use a little snap.

I note that the supply of people available for Feasting doesn't change from Evil to Neutral to Good.

The catch, I think, could very well be in how "criminal" gets defined among a bunch of FFH2 vampires. "Did not volunteer to be consumed in order to fight the hellspawn," is a real possibility.

So... what's the new "iDelay" do?
You could make a copy of the "Feast" spell and add an Alignment pre-req in the Good range, remove the Alignment penalty, but have it take longer. (Make the vamp immobile for awhile?) The delay/immobility reflects that it's taking a while to scrounge up "real" criminals.

"Just Execution of Criminals - No, Really - in the Name of the Greater Good and After All Due Process of Law or Custom and Without Prejudice or Self-Centered Malice" would be a great name. Though it could use a little snap. :lol:

Just a thought, as in my last game, I managed to get an Evil Order Calabim Civ :crazyeye:

And this wasn't neccesarily an Order Calabim. With Decius, it can now be just a 'Good Calabim', but I was thinking of Order Calabim, yes.

Good point - forgot about him. Not really sure where that mechanic is going yet though - by the sounds of it we probably won't find out until Ice...

Vehem, again i asking about of your likeness to add mammon assasin unit for kadhi, as we discussed above. Should i do model (retextured chanter) ?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=264496&page=54


No plans as yet - though will keep it in mind.

The alignment's going to depend on how much feasting you do I guess - a little feasting and you'll stay balanced by the per-turn good shift for Order, get carried away and you drift back to neutral or even evil. Makes sense to me. Dark fantasy, remember :)

The alignment's going to depend on how much feasting you do I guess - a little feasting and you'll stay balanced by the per-turn good shift for Order, get carried away and you drift back to neutral or even evil. Makes sense to me. Dark fantasy, remember :)

Its a per-turn shift? I didn't realise that. Thanks for the information. :)

bug report:

im not sure but i think there is something wrong with the city art (buildings).
e.g. bannor cities are almost emty (only the city buildings you build e.g. obelisc are showing).

I just wanted to remind you to include the latest version of xienwolf's modcomp next time you release a new version. I have big plans for the new tags related to duration.

Its a per-turn shift? I didn't realise that. Thanks for the information. :)
I think so - unless it's been changed, the idea being that you'd see more impact following it for longer. I could be wrong though, if that's only been applied to civics.

Thank you for the early release Vehem, we can now bug Tarquelne for the new SoP version :D.

By the way, Natane has no diplomacy talk when she declares war.

If you are accepting requests for new civs:

The redeemed

Leader: Brigit the Shining
alignment: Good

Once Brigit is frees from her prison, she finsd the largest Barbarian city without a hero in it, and takes it over, redeeming the orcs.

Thier ultimate goal is to bring Bhall back to Good.

they would use Orcish art.

I'll flesh this out more if you are interested.

I think so - unless it's been changed, the idea being that you'd see more impact following it for longer. I could be wrong though, if that's only been applied to civics.

It's not - that's a planned feature but I'm going to work out how the whole alignment system should work before I make any changes to it. No PerTurn alignment changes are included yet.

Not sure whether this is intended, but Hannah is now Evil at the start of a game. Also, -5 Alignment for Dungeons is quite steep, considering there is no way to positively modify your Alignment. Maybe Herbalists or Infirmaries should have + Alignment.

:lol:

Just a thought, as in my last game, I managed to get an Evil Order Calabim Civ :crazyeye:

Evil Order isn't too farfetched in my mind.

Not sure whether this is intended, but Hannah is now Evil at the start of a game. Also, -5 Alignment for Dungeons is quite steep, considering there is no way to positively modify your Alignment. Maybe Herbalists or Infirmaries should have + Alignment.

I gave courthouses +5 in my game to balance out that I have a trial before i sentence people, instead of just throwing them in the dungeon.

Not sure whether this is intended, but Hannah is now Evil at the start of a game. Also, -5 Alignment for Dungeons is quite steep, considering there is no way to positively modify your Alignment. Maybe Herbalists or Infirmaries should have + Alignment.

Infirmaries do have +1 alignment. As for the lack of positive modifiers, I believe Vehem did that on purpose as Erebus is a world of dark fantasy. I agree that -5 for Dungeons is a bit steep when Infirmaries give only +1.

Infirmaries do have +1 alignment. As for the lack of positive modifiers, I believe Vehem did that on purpose as Erebus is a world of dark fantasy. I agree that -5 for Dungeons is a bit steep when Infirmaries give only +1.

Vehem didn't do anything actually :p

The Alignment modifiers are almost all exactly as they were in Grey Fox's original release. Only the religion modifiers and the "limits" (now 500 rather than 511 either way) have been altered.

The next project on my list however is an overhaul to make things a little more "fluid" - mostly the "perTurn" shifts I keep mentioning. I've spoken to Grey Fox and he's not planning on doing much more on Broader Alignments for now and has given the go-ahead for anyone else to develop it further.

The plan:
(1) Religions and Civics both have "PerTurn" shifts, upto a limit.
(2) Review of Building/Unit alignment values (these are one shot shifts each time the building/unit is constructed).
(3) Review of "BaseAlignment" values for leaders.

==

That's the plan, the implementation may take a little longer than usual however due to moving house and all the stuff that goes with it. If anyone wants to give coding it a shot in the meantime however - please, be my guest.

Would it help if people gave a list of the order of leaders from good to evil in their opinion? Perhaps with suggested allignment number? I could probably do that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too. I think there was a thread about it once too.

A 031 version of the Scions of Patria has been posted:
Download here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9495)
Discussion thread here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273769)

(I'll post an announcement here after needed FF compatibility updates, not every SOP patch.)

Would it help if people gave a list of the order of leaders from good to evil in their opinion? Perhaps with suggested allignment number? I could probably do that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too. I think there was a thread about it once too.

Aye - there was.

The main thing I'm planning to change for those is making sure each leader is more "central" within their alignment - there are currently some neutral leaders who are very close to good etc (and Hannah was so close to evil that she dropped down when the limits were shifted slightly - which also needs correcting).

There will still be leaders that are "more evil" or "neutral-on-the-goodside" - but it'll take a little more effort/time to make them shift alignment (I want at least a 50 alignment point buffer between their initial alignment and any other).

I for one think that the alignment modifiers of OO, RoK, Empyrean, and CoE should be smaller.

Would it be possible to make religions (civics, units, etc) move you closer to neutral instead of good or evil? It might be good for FoL to move you slightly away from either extreme. RoK could move you both towards good and towards neutral. It would stop civs following the religion from being evil, but not make all the dwarves instantly good. I'm also thinking Pacifism could move you towards neutral, as these civs wouldn't want to take sides in the battle of good versus evil.

I would still prefer the numerical alignment only show up in mouseovers, and I think that the alignment bar is really unnecessary.

Vehem, been merging your CvMainInterface with the FFHBUG one.

Can you think of a quick way to test for the presence of Fall Further? 'cause then I can just put

if <test for FallFurther>:
import CvMainInterfaceWithFF as CvMainInterface
else:
import CvMainInterface

in my CvScreensInterface file and there will be no need for filename changing or overwriting or anything.

You are going to release this Fall Further Bug mod, right? (Or get Vehem to include it int eh next main release?)

Quick way to test would be if the Number of Civilizations is greater than 25 (leaves breathing room for FfH to gain more, which is unlikely, you could check for greater than 22 if you want).


To have alignments move you toward Neutral, you should do something like "New Alignment = Old Alignment * 2/3," this gets you a relative shift which will tend to be fairly minor, unless you are an extremist, in which case it ought to be fairly major IMO.

Can you be more specific, Xienwolf? I mean, I know python, I know XML, I just don't know squat about the Civ4 API :)

When I want to load a mod, the error is appearing:

GFC Error: failed to initialize the primary control theme.

I don`t know what to do :(

Reasonably certain that what you are looking for is getNumCivilizatonInfos, so your code would be
if gc.getNumCivilizationInfos() < 25:
import CvMainInterfaceWithFF as CvMainInterface
else:
import CvMainInterface

Don't you want greater than there?

Reasonably certain that what you are looking for is getNumCivilizatonInfos, so your code would be
if gc.getNumCivilizationInfos() < 25:
import CvMainInterfaceWithFF as CvMainInterface
else:
import CvMainInterface

That should work - otherwise can just test for a specific Fall Further related info (which covers the case where Fall from Heaven expands - "minor civs" may turn up with Ice as scenario elements perhaps?)

if gc.getInfoTypeForString("CIVILIZATION_ARCHOS") != -1:
import CvMainInterfaceWithFF as CvMainInterface
else:
import CvMainInterface

Either way will work for the current version at least though - looking forward to seeing it :goodjob:

When I want to load a mod, the error is appearing:

GFC Error: failed to initialize the primary control theme.

I don`t know what to do :(

Make sure either your default FfH install or the Fall Further one uses the name Kael's installer uses - "Mods\Fall from Heaven 032\". The way Civ4 "resources" are handled is a little clumsy and so you need to have at least one version of the mod in a directory by that name so that they can be located.

If you are accepting requests for new civs:

The redeemed

Leader: Brigit the Shining
alignment: Good

Once Brigit is frees from her prison, she finsd the largest Barbarian city without a hero in it, and takes it over, redeeming the orcs.

Thier ultimate goal is to bring Bhall back to Good.

they would use Orcish art.

I'll flesh this out more if you are interested.

did this get lost? ( we X-posted, so i'm not sure if you saw this...)

did this get lost? ( we X-posted, so i'm not sure if you saw this...)

Aye - missed it the first time round. Interesting idea, but will be quite difficult to "get right". I also tend to stay to the fringe of the canon with new civs - they're definitely tied in to the lore, but I haven't really considered taking a fairly substantial character (Bhall's archangel is pretty "substantial") and developing around them.

Still - I'll keep the idea in mind. There's one civ I already have fairly well planned (Explorer/Trickster/Leader "follows" Tali (as far as you can follow the wind...) though not reflected in the whole civ - they have normal religion options/Air Sphere) and the Alignment is the other major project I want to take up. It will be a couple of weeks before I start developing again though - I'm just maintaining the mod until I've finished up moving house.

care to elaborate on this tali following civ? im intregued...

What I see as vital to each civilization is 'what makes it unique' and 'can it be balanced'. Why not make a new leader to the Clan and choose a play strategy that makes them good? Why a whole new Civ for good orcs? Its not a put down, I just don't understand.

care to elaborate on this tali following civ? im intregued...

Easiest option would be to just paste the brainstorm notes I made...



Deirdra
Follower of Tali
Trickster
Explorer
Rogues - "Not criminals - as such - but they do have a way of being where they're not supposed to..."
Shore Parties - Ship-based summons, can travel in-land (limited duration, can not attack, ignore terrain?)
Auto fair-winds ships (same mechanic as "Crazed" - granted randomly, but fairly frequently - "fleetingly favoured by the god of Air")
Scouts travel across rival territory
Sentry-like ability
"Elusive" hero.
Trackers - Adventurer units (Ranger UU, weaker but moved to Tracking? Non-animal abilities)
"Light" promotion available to Melee line (Discard Equipment - can only re-equip once it reaches a city??).
Wayshrines - temporary improvements in Neutral territory - heal-rate boosted


Themes - exploring the land/seas (shore parties are to explore distant land masses), being able to travel to places other civs may not be able to (lots of "Explore Rival Territory" recon units - Rogues etc), potential to move quickly when needed (Fair Winds and "Light" melee option)

EDIT: Attached Deirdra's leaderhead.

very nice idea for a civ vehem, i can see the lanun and these guys either being best of friends or worst enemies. im sure the beleraphs would like them too :p

I played as the Belsaraphs today for the first time in a long while. I decided to declare war on the Elves for that nice Hoard of gems they have (Orthus and Archeron were destroyed when the cultural boundaries shifted :rolleyes:). Shortly after I decide to give my gold to the first person who can stab themselves four times in the heart and survive, the Lizardmen (Cualli) declare war on me for not giving horses to them (which I was using to rip people apart in the arena). I defeat their only unit to attack me in the first 20 turns of the war, a Hunter, and I get a Lizardman Slave. I take it to my capital, and decide it would look lovely as a wall decoration. I cast 'Add to Freak Show', and it magically changes... Into a human in a cage. :confused:

To cut a long story short, there is no Lizardman Cage, and the 'Add to Freak Show' adds a human cage instead.

I played as the Belsaraphs today for the first time in a long while. I decided to declare war on the Elves for that nice Hoard of gems they have (Orthus and Archeron were destroyed when the cultural boundaries shifted :rolleyes:). Shortly after I decide to give my gold to the first person who can stab themselves four times in the heart and survive, the Lizardmen (Cualli) declare war on me for not giving horses to them (which I was using to rip people apart in the arena). I defeat their only unit to attack me in the first 20 turns of the war, a Hunter, and I get a Lizardman Slave. I take it to my capital, and decide it would look lovely as a wall decoration. I cast 'Add to Freak Show', and it magically changes... Into a human in a cage. :confused:

To cut a long story short, there is no Lizardman Cage, and the 'Add to Freak Show' adds a human cage instead.

Sounds like a fair addition to the Balseraphs and simple enough to add.

Make sure either your default FfH install or the Fall Further one uses the name Kael's installer uses - "Mods\Fall from Heaven 032\". The way Civ4 "resources" are handled is a little clumsy and so you need to have at least one version of the mod in a directory by that name so that they can be located.


great thanks

Well this is rather strange. In a game I am playing right now of FF, I am getting wine from a tile without a winery, although I didnt get it until I researched crafting. Inclduing happyness from it.

I don't think this is supposed to happen XD

Heres the save...

Note: Save is patch a FFH2-32 and FF31...

Themes - exploring the land/seas (shore parties are to explore distant land masses), being able to travel to places other civs may not be able to (lots of "Explore Rival Territory" recon units - Rogues etc), potential to move quickly when needed (Fair Winds and "Light" melee option).

I like the sound of this. I know you try to stay away from canon, but I wish this could be an opportunity to learn more about Tali. Will Dierdra's civ have any history with the Hippus?

"potential to move quickly when needed": Is it possible to give them a chance to preemptively withdraw from an attacker? I bet they'd have a good time dancing and parrying around foes.

I was thinking it could be cool to give them a default race that allows a small defensive wihtdrawal chance; then I realized that units can have Defensive withdrawal chances but currently promotions cannot. Vehem could add this to the schema though. Or just give their hero/UUs this ability.

Thought I'd share my last game with everyone. I started a continents game as the Grigori. I manage to pop Mining and the Bronze Working (:))in a row, and then my scout was destroyed, so I prioritised Iron Working and then Smelting.
I pop 4 adventurers, and turn those into Dragon Slayers over the course of the game. My Hunter adventurer was killed by Orthus on turn 134 (:mad:), shortly after Orthus wiped out the only Kahdi City :rolleyes:.
On turn 165, the Dural declare war on my other neighbour, the Cualli. They are my only neighbours, and I'm in the middle, so I can profit either way ;). When the Dural finished destroying the Cualli cities on my left, I go with my Dragon Slayers to wipe out the Cualli. Half way through the war, the Amurites are destroyed before I'd met them.
I play another ten turns after the war, and the Chislev are destroyed. I save, and go into WB. To put it simply, the Archos were pursuing an aggresive policy against the Chislev, and I think the Elohim went power-mad... :eek:

:O That must have been a pretty fun game lol. Have you got any pictures?

:O That must have been a pretty fun game lol. Have you got any pictures?

Unfortunatly, I don't... I could take some WB pics of the last few turns I played, but I don't know how to upload them... And it was a very fun game. I razed so many cities that I'm about 2/5ths of the way towards evil... :lol:

EDIT: Do you think I should take the Dural Cities, (so I have almost all the island my brown border colour), or should I vassalise them?

Knock them down to one city, force their Capitulation, and soak their mana.....until Kael or Vehem make Palaces capturable, it's one of the best ways to augment your Adepts' spell selection. :)

True, although not quite as good as cheating in world builder.

I as surprised in my last game that when I did that to Kandros Fir that he declared war on me in the same turn as he capitulated. I was under the impression that he would be unable to declare war for 10 turns. I ended up having to just wipe him out (he was already down to 1 city with he capitulated. He had only Maros, a catapult, a couple soldiers of Kilmorph, and lots of Privateers.)

I keep forgetting to mention this: The deselect X from random choice is shown as:

TXT_KEY...

And I won't finish that game, as the new patch is out...

Fantastic modmod! Excuse what is probably a dumb question, but I just installed the new patch for ffh - do I need to wait for a patch for ff as well, or can I reinstall the one on the first link over the top? Thanks!

Vehem needs to post a new, updated version of FF for the most recent version of FfH (0.32d).

Vehem needs to post a new, updated version of FF for the most recent version of FfH (0.32d).

Aye - did the python and most of the XML last night, will try to do the DLL tonight once we get in (it's "move-all-of-my-girlfriend's-stuff-clear-across-the-city-into-the-new-house-day" today).

Vehem needs to post a new, updated version of FF for the most recent version of FfH (0.32d).

And that cancels my need to post yesterdays mp issues.. :hammer2:

Aye - did the python and most of the XML last night, will try to do the DLL tonight once we get in (it's "move-all-of-my-girlfriend's-stuff-clear-across-the-city-into-the-new-house-day" today).

Everything but the DLL is finished, but the DLL source is currently returning 509 (Bandwidth Limit Exceeded) so I can't update that after all tonight. Did anyone grab a copy before it went?

I managed to grab it. I was just going to post an update to my MODCOMP even though I haven't added anything to it, but there were a few files with changes in the patch which I haven't modified I think. So I'll just attach the whole thing here.

It is just the .h and .cpp files from the main folder. Should be enough to get compliant though.

Vehem have you considered merging xienwolf's modcomp with this?

Umm, Vehem, this is again a cosmetic thread issue; but it's been pissing me off for a long time, I know it's rather unimportant but whatever. When I open the FF thread it just always scrolls to the end of the 3rd post or something, as in it auto scrolls down a few pages, it's rather annoying and it doesn't happen with any other threads. Is this a weird coincidence or is there a feasible explanation for this?

I managed to grab it. I was just going to post an update to my MODCOMP even though I haven't added anything to it, but there were a few files with changes in the patch which I haven't modified I think. So I'll just attach the whole thing here.

It is just the .h and .cpp files from the main folder. Should be enough to get compliant though.

Thanks - compiling now (with any luck).

Vehem have you considered merging xienwolf's modcomp with this?

Which one? :D

Fairly large sections of his XML modcomp are included (though from a much earlier version) - though they are primarily things that may not be instantly visible (the "Raider" promotion for instance relies on his work, causing units to automatically pillage when they enter an enemy tile).

His worker mod (again, an earlier version) is also included.

Are there any specific parts you're thinking of?

Umm, Vehem, this is again a cosmetic thread issue; but it's been pissing me off for a long time, I know it's rather unimportant but whatever. When I open the FF thread it just always scrolls to the end of the 3rd post or something, as in it auto scrolls down a few pages, it's rather annoying and it doesn't happen with any other threads. Is this a weird coincidence or is there a feasible explanation for this?

Not a clue - unless you mean the link from the download section? That one was linking to the original last "intro post", which I've now altered to point at the first post.

Patch A (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/FFH2032d-FF031-PatchA.zip)
1. Update for compatibility with FFH032d

====

Thanks Xienwolf.

I'm getting some XML errors when I try to load this. I followed the recommended order and it's saying something about iPrereqBroadAlignment is used but not defined in the schema..., then a whole bunch of errors about promotions and improvements happen after that...

I got it to work by installing FFH .32, applying the D patch. Then I copied the Patch "A" Fall Further assets into the zip extract of the Fall Further main download, and then copied all of that to the FFH directory. So the only order that worked for me was:

[1]Fall from Heaven 032
[2]Fall from Heaven 032 - Patch D
[3]Fall Further 031
[4]Fall Further 031 - Patch A

I got it to work by installing FFH .32, applying the D patch. Then I copied the Patch "A" Fall Further assets into the zip extract of the Fall Further main download, and then copied all of that to the FFH directory. So the only order that worked for me was:

[1]Fall from Heaven 032
[2]Fall from Heaven 032 - Patch D
[3]Fall Further 031
[4]Fall Further 031 - Patch A

Im gona have to doubly confirm that... His posted "correct order" causes hell beyond hell XD and the logical works..

Crazy-weird bug - Scouts in winter forests and hills (possibly normal forests) have no tooltips, meaning they can't, for example, explore a dungeon if it's in a winter forest.

Also some kind of error with city screens - I hit enter to jump out, and instead it jumps me over to my warrior - with the detailed city screen still framing him.

Scouts regain their tooltips moving OFF of tiles...I think this might be all units. My settler started on a forested hill, and I couldn't look at Terrain. I was playing Calabim under Flauros on Hemispheres, if that matters.

Confirmed - all units in forest or winter forest terrain, playing as Sheiam under Os-Gabella, on Terra. They lose tooltips and the ability to view terrain. UPSETTING. Presumably, any tile with a natural improvement on it causes this error?

Yea Im getting major errors even loading the mod form the advanced options!.. somethings up here..



acyually scratch that.. Im just an idiot.

cant seem load load any saved games.. soem sort of decrompression error.

Yeah getting the same error with savegames.

same here. starting a game: no problem. loading a game: CtD

cant seem load load any saved games.. soem sort of decrompression error.

Yeah getting the same error with savegames.

same here. starting a game: no problem. loading a game: CtD


So much for my :woohoo:

I'll be impatiently, but utmost greatfully, awaiting a fix. ;)

Some dittoing:

When I try the recommened install order I get a host of errors. The initial XML errors referencing Broader Alignments are fixed by using the UnitSchema file from the 031 FF install. Lots remain.

No obvious issues in-game when using the alternate install above. However, I can't load any savegames either - including those started using the installed mod/patch combination.

Some dittoing:

When I try the recommened install order I get a host of errors. The initial XML errors referencing Broader Alignments are fixed by using the UnitSchema file from the 031 FF install. Lots remain.

No obvious issues in-game when using the alternate install above. However, I can't load any savegames either - including those started using the installed mod/patch combination.

Going to make a full release out of it - I don't really like Patches for compatibility updates anyway, but I thought I may get away with it this time. Guess not...

==

The load-issue is going to be DLL related, will track that down first...

Which one? :D

Fairly large sections of his XML modcomp are included (though from a much earlier version) - though they are primarily things that may not be instantly visible (the "Raider" promotion for instance relies on his work, causing units to automatically pillage when they enter an enemy tile).

His worker mod (again, an earlier version) is also included.

Are there any specific parts you're thinking of?

I don't know what Kasdar was thinking of (xienwolf hasn't added his requested additions yet), but I know why I want Fall Further to include the latest version of xienwolf's xml modcomp. I was planning on borrowing your DLL (or basing mine closely on your source code) since we both are using Broader Alignments and xienwolf's modcomp (also explorable lairs, but I don't that uses a custom DLL). Several of my ideas depend pretty heavily on his duration-though-promotions changes. Just go ahead and include all this SDK changes; graphics changes, python, and xml (excluding schema) are unnecessary.

It would also be nice if you went ahead and merged UnitStats at the same time, and maybe also FFHBUG. And of course, feel free to implement anything that I've requested form xienwolf whihc he hasn't gotten around to yet. :D

Not sure if this been answered already, but will the next version of FF include the latest version of Marnok's explorable lairs mod? I find I absolutely love explorable lairs, can't play FfH without them anymore, and am really liking some of the new stuff in the latest version. :)

Going to make a full release out of it - I don't really like Patches for compatibility updates anyway, but I thought I may get away with it this time. Guess not...

Shouldn't matter now, but... in the Evil Patch's SpellInfos there's an extra "<SpellInfos>" between Inspire Fury and Take Hauberk of Abjuration - no idea if it's in the original FFH2 file or not.

Just go ahead and include all this SDK changes; graphics changes, python, and xml (excluding schema) are unnecessary.

It would also be nice if you went ahead and merged UnitStats at the same time, and maybe also FFHBUG. And of course, feel free to implement anything that I've requested form xienwolf whihc he hasn't gotten around to yet. :D

I'm going to sound like a broken record soon, but I'm just maintaining the mod to keep it up-to-date with Kael's new versions until I've got the new place sorted. I've spent all of today for instance painting, strimming, building flat pack furniture and scouring DIY stores for assorted tools/trimmings.

==

Also - every merged component comes at a cost to maintenance - they all need to be merged with any of Kael's changes every time the DLL is updated. The list is getting fairly long already. That being said - some of the XML components look very useful for things I have planned.

==

Give me a couple of weeks and I'll see what I can do.

I've re-released the 032d update as a full release, FF-Version 032.
I also just posted Patch A to fix a couple of issues.

===

I've fixed the Load Issue but unfortunately it was "Reading but not Writing", so the existing save games still won't decompress (if it was the opposite way around they would work fine now).

Apologies for the "bodge-patch" - hopefully didn't effect too many games...

I dont know if you already fixed this or not. But the "losing tooltips in forests" problem probably has something to do with my change to the maintainfeatures attribute on civilizations. It used to just be a boolen that allowed improvements on all features for that civ. Now its a list of features that civ can build improvements on (some one civ can be set to be able to place improvements on forests, another could do it on jungles, another could do it on oasis and scrubs, etc).

I dont know if you already fixed this or not. But the "losing tooltips in forests" problem probably has something to do with my change to the maintainfeatures attribute on civilizations. It used to just be a boolen that allowed improvements on all features for that civ. Now its a list of features that civ can build improvements on (some one civ can be set to be able to place improvements on forests, another could do it on jungles, another could do it on oasis and scrubs, etc).

Thanks - I was just starting to look into this one. Is it a FfH issue rather than merging issue on my side then? (from the bug thread posts it seems that non-FF players are having trouble too).

Either way I'll try tracking it down - it just changes where I look first...

Kahdi, monarch, diplomacy with my evil neighbours going downhill... It would be nice to convert to Octopus Overlords right now to tip towards evil... And oh bugger cant convert (I founded OO).. ?? Is it a bug, or I just cant convert to OO? Last time I looked they werent agnostic...

They aren't Agnostic, but they have a different approach on religion. They can research the religion-founding techs unlike agnostic civs, but they can't adopt a state religion like agnostic civs. The best would be to design a new trait for them, maybe something like "Faithless". Or just make them Agnostic.

Kahdi, monarch, diplomacy with my evil neighbours going downhill... It would be nice to convert to Octopus Overlords right now to tip towards evil... And oh bugger cant convert (I founded OO).. ?? Is it a bug, or I just cant convert to OO? Last time I looked they werent agnostic...

They are - though they were initially going to be a "different type of Agnostic" (one which just didn't allow religion to spread to their cities or be founded in them). Currently they just can't adopt - it may be easier to just give them the Agnostic trait as with the others.

==

I'm not planning on creating any more agnostic civs after the Kahdi - got enough now.

Upon exploring a lair:
TXT_KEY_GOODY_MARNOK_CRAZED shows up as info only.
Unit got the crazed promotion though.

Well, I haven't had time to play with WHY yet, but I just loaded up my latest MODCOMP (should be patch D compliant), and I found that I am unable to make any of my units lose the second row of buttons entering features. So apparently I have accidentally fixed it during my merging process... Maybe.

So I guess if you can't find a solution you can try merging my latest Comp and see if that does the trick for you as well.

EDIT: Nevermind, I can't see the bug in normal Fall from Heaven either.

I'm getting lost, could someone post a download link please?

Well, I haven't had time to play with WHY yet, but I just loaded up my latest MODCOMP (should be patch D compliant), and I found that I am unable to make any of my units lose the second row of buttons entering features. So apparently I have accidentally fixed it during my merging process... Maybe.

So I guess if you can't find a solution you can try merging my latest Comp and see if that does the trick for you as well.

EDIT: Nevermind, I can't see the bug in normal Fall from Heaven either.

dang, hoping you could get him to merge your mod with this... now you went and blew it. :lol:

I'm getting lost, could someone post a download link please?

First post of the thread - current download and patch.

You need to install the current FfH 2 (032d) first, then install the FF main download, then any patch listed.

Finally did get the bug to happen, and while I was running my modcomp. So no mystical accidental solutions.

The good news is I finally figured out how to get the dang AI autoplay to work. That hotkey stuff is bunk, had to use the console.

First, great modmod, just recently got into FfH2 and this is a great expansion on it.

Second, I'm trying out these lizard men, and have some questions about deep jungle/wetlands spreading.

~First the wetlands, and swamp question. I know both can spread naturally, but does the lizzy worker have any options concerning this (I think the spell 'spring' can change a wetlands to swamp, how about grass lands to wetlands)?

~Next up is a specific about deep jungle spreading....I know a forest has a chance to turn into one if its on a wetlands tile, are there any options concerning forests on a hill? Basically, I have a row of hills with forests, and was wondering if it was safe to chop those down for mine upgrades.

~And finally, are wetlands, swamps, jungles able to spread to improved tiles (I think they can on the 'trails', but not on farms, villages and mines?)

Thanks to anyone willing to field all this, any other tips with the lizards are welcome as well (currently playing mazatl, haven't touched the evil guys yet, really rocking out with this awesome economy)

Finally did get the bug to happen, and while I was running my modcomp. So no mystical accidental solutions.

The good news is I finally figured out how to get the dang AI autoplay to work. That hotkey stuff is bunk, had to use the console.

If you get chance, do you mind taking a poke at this one Xien? Kael is away for the week and I'm only getting an hour or so at a time to experiment with it (which is effectively 2 compiles and testing - with it being a "sporadic" issue that's not going to help much). It seems to be an issue with the core game, but there's no guarantee that the mod-mods aren't interacting with it oddly too.

If not - don't worry about it.

First, great modmod, just recently got into FfH2 and this is a great expansion on it.

Second, I'm trying out these lizard men, and have some questions about deep jungle/wetlands spreading.

~First the wetlands, and swamp question. I know both can spread naturally, but does the lizzy worker have any options concerning this (I think the spell 'spring' can change a wetlands to swamp, how about grass lands to wetlands)?

~Next up is a specific about deep jungle spreading....I know a forest has a chance to turn into one if its on a wetlands tile, are there any options concerning forests on a hill? Basically, I have a row of hills with forests, and was wondering if it was safe to chop those down for mine upgrades.

~And finally, are wetlands, swamps, jungles able to spread to improved tiles (I think they can on the 'trails', but not on farms, villages and mines?)

Thanks to anyone willing to field all this, any other tips with the lizards are welcome as well (currently playing mazatl, haven't touched the evil guys yet, really rocking o