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Fall Further Version 042 for Fall from Heaven 2 033g

The purpose of this Modmod was initially to add additional, distinct civilizations to Fall from Heaven 2, whilst maintaining balance, variety and flavour. Each civilization has a distinct playstyle, some unique artwork, flavourful civilopedia entries and a few tricks up their sleeves. Since Version 030, some interface and other feature additions have also been included. This trend will continue as other modders release mod-components into the community.

Installation
1. Install the Fall from Heaven 2 version and patch as listed above.
2. Install the Fall Further version and patch from the links below.

The mod will install alongside Fall from Heaven 2 - it does not overwrite it. The installer copies the necessary files from the Fall from Heaven 2 installation before installing the modified Fall Further content.

Current Download Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292120)

Feature List


7 New Civilizations

Dural Civilization
Artists and students, the Dural are coming to realise that study alone will not sustain them in the wartorn Age of Rebirth. Led by the visionary Dannmos, the Dural seek to return civilization to the world, or at least their corner of it - though the task seems daunting indeed

With access to a number of unique national wonders (the Statues of the Seven Virtues) and the potent Professor unit (a priest replacement who can cast Hope and Inspiration), the Dural can do well on any path within the game. They are somewhat limited in religion (they can adopt religion and build disciples, but Temples and Priests are unavailable to them) as they are more concerned with the achievements of man than the worship of the gods, and are not naturally inclined to war but are quite capable of combat when the need arises. Their Hero - Karrlson - is a champion-level unit who was once a student until he saw first hand the dangers the world faced, at which point he began to study warfare instead. A good, solid choice for any player who enjoys a "builder" playstyle, with plenty of potential.

The Chislev Tribe
Tribal warriors out for revenge, the Chislev were almost wiped out when Jonas marched through their lands on the way to wage war on the Bannor. Previously a peaceful people, the Chislev were forced to fight for survival with their leader Absaroke at the fore. With the immediate danger now passed, the tribe must rebuild what they have lost if they are ever to avenge the fallen.

The Tribe has a number of unique buildings, some of which replace existing early structures (Elder Council and Pagan Shrine) and other, more potent buildings which can only be constructed once a number of others have been built within the empire. The most important of this higher-level buildings is the Council of the Warchief - which provides the effect of a Forbidden palace as well as boosting military production and global city-defence. One of these can in theory be built for every 3 cities, leading to the possibility of many small groups of settlements, each close to a "centre of government" to reduce maintenance. Additionally, the Chislev only civic - "Tribal Law" - acts in a similar manner to City States, but reduces Number of Cities maintenance instead of distance. Finally, when their world spell is cast, the Chislev receive free units in every city containing a Council of the Warchief, as the troops are rallied to seek their revenge. On the downside, the tribe has recently abandoned their homes, and suffers somewhat in the early game - lacking the means to make rapid tech-progress. Once they get established however, their enemies should be wary. A good civ for those who like to build early and war late.

The Archos
The Archos spent the Age of Ice trapped in spider infested caves. Over time they developed mutations and even began to worship the spiders. Shortly before the Age of Rebirth dawned, a formal spider cult emerged worshipping a giant spider they commonly called "Mother". Whilst the cult remains secretive and below ground even now, they hold sway over their barbaric tribe who have returned to the surface, under the command of Daracaat. Daracaat is fierce warrior, none-too-subtle in his approach but wily enough to understand the position the spider cult has put him in. He wishes to build the power of the tribe and conquer those civilizations nearby and uses brute strength and giant spiders to do it.

The Archos are a "barbarian-friendly" civilzation, though they tend to allow their spiders to feed upon any orcs that stray too close. Whilst the civilization has a strong "spider-theme", they cannot build spiders themselves and mostly rely on the brute strength of their warriors, especially in the early game. The spiders are born in the "Nest-City" (Capital) which benefits greatly when it increases in size. At Size 5, Baby Spiders are born periodically, whilst at Size 10 this changes to Giant Spiders. At Size 20, the Giant Spiders become Strong. There is one other important size-level for the Nest - size 15. This is the minimum size required to cast their world-spell, which brings their Hero unit "Mother" into the world. She's a big spider. And fun. 'nuff said. Subtle game-play isn't high on the list of Archos traits - they like to war and have the means to do it. Their Melee line lacks access to some of the weapon upgrades (generally only available to higher level units than normal) but make up for that with poison strength. Their Recon line is especially potent, and leads to the tech required to wake Mother (Feral Bond) and eventually toward the tech required to train Haruspex - the spider priests. These druid replacements trade summoning abilities for the Chaos Sphere, making them a unique blend of druid and attack-caster. The Archos have good potential for early war, and it just gets better once Mother and friends turn up...

Enter the Lizardmen - Cualli and Mazatl Civilizations

The Cualli and Mazatl civilizations are two surviving factions of an ancient race that was all but destroyed in the Age of Ice. Whilst they share a common root, they have developed in dramatically different directions since the dawn of the Age of Rebirth.

The Cualli survived the Age of Ice by making pacts with their dark god. Now bound to his service, they are a selfish and bloodthirsty people. Utilizing slavery and blood sacrifices to build their empire and dark magics combined with natural aggression to conquer their neighbours. Their leader is ruthlessly cunning and cold blooded in his tactics and their high-level units are incredibly potent, combining the power and stealth of the Shadow unit with the spell casting abilities of the Priest line.

The Mazatl on the other hand are an enlightened civilization, burdened with the foresight of the impending Armageddon. Their priests have divined what will happen if none stand to prevent the Infernals and the Sheaim from completing their plans, so they now make preparations to make that stand.

Lust for Knowledge - Kahdi

A new civ with an identity crisis - the Kahdi are ambitious, power hungry and utterly convinced that they're actually "nice guys". Believing that they serve Oghma
in pursuit of knowledge, their path has been twisted by Mammon and they truly covet power instead. Granted a direct link to Oghma's vault through "Vault Gates",
will Kahd eventually discover the truth and if so - with which god will he side?

Where the wind blows - Austrin

The Austrin are born explorers and their units and abilities reflect their wandering ways. Whilst the short term benefits of exploration are obvious, units like the Tracker also allow you to keep your lands safe from barbarians more easily whilst your melee forces are more mobile than those of other civilizations. Eventually they are able to field units such as the Windsword and Pegasus riders.


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New terrain and unique features

Welcome to the Jungle

With the Cualli and Mazatl civilizations comes a new terrain mechanic to help represent their disposition toward jungle climates. It introduces a new terrain type (Wetland), feature (Deep Jungle) and "Improvement" (Swampland). Each of these will develop naturally over time in Lizard-man lands, turning their empire into a lush jungle land. The lizardmen draw some benefits from these terrain types, but they also provide an obstacle to would-be conquerors.

Lore Locations

Seven Pines, Mount Kalshekk, Bradeline's Well and Sirona's Beacon join the list of unique features to be found in Erebus, each with it's own benefits. Some are based on locations found in Fall from Heaven Canon lore, others are based on the FF civilizations.

New flavour for existing civs

Subtle changes to the existing civilizations add new options and flavour to the races. For instance - Lanun ships can now summon a weak boarding party in order to capture enemy vessels at sea if they have the "Buccaneer Crew" promotion, the Sidar gain the "Divided Soul" hunter replacement (able to split itself into separate parts and teleport between locations) and the Elohim have been extensively reworked as a defensive, monastic civilization.


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Features from other modders

Explorable Lairs (original by Marnok)

Marnok has produced an excellent mod-component that means that monster lairs (Barrows, Ruins etc) are no longer so easily defeated. A unit must stand upon
the lair and "Assault the Dungeon". This can be a risky business, with all manner of dangers awaiting the unit and no guarantee of success. However - it can also be
very rewarding - experience, gold, magic items, unique promotions and unimaginable fame all await intrepid adventurers in the darkness. They need only be bold
enough to enter...

When a unit stands upon a tile with a "Lair" improvement, it no longer vanishes. You must use the "Explore Dungeon" ability in order to attempt to destroy the lair.
When you do so, a great many results are possible - but the process occurs automatically and you are informed of what happens during the adventure. The results vary
from valuable to outright deadly. You can improve your chances however with the "Adventurer" promotion - which helps your unit to avoid the worst of what the dungeon
can throw at them.


Broader Alignment (original by Grey Fox)

Evil? You call yourself evil? I'm more evil than you could ever be and I can prove it... Grey Fox produced a very impressive interface allowing a much greater
variety of factors to influence your alignment.

Alignment is no longer purely tied to religion - each leader has an initial alignment score (ranging from very good to very evil) and this can be influenced by religion, civics, units created, buildings built,
event results, cities razed - pretty much anything you can think of. Most influencing factors are commented on in their 'pedia entries or the help text for the option
though some are not immediately obvious (event results and such). Whilst Grey Fox did a *lot* of work on this, I do plan to extend that further in later versions
and to tweak the existing factors to make things a little easier to follow. The coloured bar in the top left of the interface displays your current alignment status.


Worker Promotions (original by Xienwolf)

Feel like a faceless labourer? Tired of working all day with no recognition of your skill? Then you need "Worker Promotions", new from Xienwolf.

Workers gain experience over time, allowing them to acquire promotions. These promotions can influence work rate, experience gain rate, defensive strength,
movement rate and visibility range. Skilled V, Mobility I workers make an excellent workfore - it just takes a little effort and a lot of worker protection to
get there.

Also included in this mod-comp was a number of addiitonal XML tags on promotions - some of which are used to implement other features below.


Diverse Citysets

Rather than using Era/Religion-based city art, Fall Further now uses Civ-specific city art. The buildings in your city will reflect the nature of the civ
you're playing. Orcs live in dirty camps, whilst elves construct elegant homes. This is purely a cosmetic change, but hopefully a worthwhile one. Some of the
religion specific improvements have been altered as well such that they don't stand out against the new city art as much.

Artwork by:

Woodelf, Winddelay and Darque (Dragonia II mod)
GeoModder, asioasioasio, Chamaedrys, C.Roland, Ganart, Sevo, White Rabbit, Woodelf and "the FfH art team" (Ethnic Citystyles Mod)
Vehem (DIY-Balseraph Tents Mod - and a number of other tweaks)


Screenies

Current Version Changelog

Version 042
0. Updated to FfH 033b
1. Major improvements to the list of available promotion prereqs (useful for modders).
2. Bannor Melee and Archery units gain Guardsman automatically - no longer depends on training yard.
3. Bannor Training Yard grants small defense bonus and reduces maintenance by a small amount.
4. Ljosalfar Archers gain Dexterous automatically - no longer depends on archery range.
5. Ljosalfar Archery Ranges grant +3 experience to archery units.
6. Hippus Horsemen gain Horselord automatically - no longer depends on stable.
7. Hippus Stable removed (original reason is gone and no need for a further boost).
8. Svartalfar Recon units gain Sinister automatically - no longer depends on hunting lodge.
9. Svartalfar Hunting Lodge removed (original reason is gone and no need for a further boost).
10. Added "Stalker" promotion - allows unit to automatically gain "Forest Stealth" (become invisible) when in Forests/Ancient Forests.
11. Added "Shrouded Woods" - Requires: Svartalfar, Tracking. Grants the "Stalker" promotion to any recon unit visiting the city.
12. Added "Crow" unit - unique hawk replacement for the Sidar. Increased range and visibility, does not require hunting lodge (Sidar hunters are now Divided Souls - no one to carry them early game)
13. Archers (and unique variants) gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 2, Cannot reduce enemy below 80% health.
14. Longbows (and unique variants) gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 3, Cannot reduce enemy below 70% health.
15. Crossbows gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 5, Cannot reduce enemy below 60% health.
16. Arquebus gains Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 5, Cannot reduce enemy below 40% health.
17. Flurry gains Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 6, Cannot reduce enemy below 50% health.
18. Marksman gains Ranged Attack. Range 2, Strength 5, Cannot reduce enemy below 60% health.
19. Gilden Silveric gains Ranged Attack (as per Archer).
20. Arthendain gains Ranged Attack (as per Crossbow).
21. Horse Archers gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 2, Cannot reduce enemy below 85% health.
22. Catapult rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 1. +300% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 4).
23. Trebuchet rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 1. +400% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 5).
24. Cannon rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 2. +300% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 8).
25. Dwarven Cannon rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 2. +400% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 10).
26. Archers defending cities with Palisades or Walls gain "Wall Defender" promotion (1 first strike and +20% city defense).
27. Sect of Flies re-added. Champion UU for Infernals and spawned by Hellfire event. Has Demon, Corpseflies and Stigmata promotions.
28. Planar gate creatures arrive with experience equal to 1/4 of the Armageddon Counter (idea from Magister)
29. Odio's Prison provides Body Mana (idea from Magister)
30. Changed the Worker Mod promotions to use Kael's WorkRateModify tag instead of Xienwolf's WorkRateChange. (no in-game difference)
31. Guardsman promotion grants a bonus of 3% defense for each unit with the promotion in a ciity.
32. Partial techs are now a possible result from goody huts. Full techs are less common at higher difficulties and impossible at the highest levels.


Patch L - Download (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/FF042-PatchL.exe)
1. Corrected prereqs for new spheres (should require Channeling 1-3 correctly now)
2. Machinery Tech no longer requires Bowyers Tech.
3. Crossbowman and Flurry require Bowyers Tech.
4. Added Labor Civic "Industry". Requires Machinery. +1H/+1C for Lumbermill/Watermill. +1F/+1H for Windmill.
5. Summon Frostling spell disabled when caster gains Promotion Ice3.
6. Ice Golem added from Age of Ice. Strength 7, Golem, Cold Resistance, Winterborn. Cannot enter desert.
7. Added Summon Ice Golem spell. Requires promotion Ice3. (strength is less than some other Level 3 Summons as this is effectively an extra spell - an upgrade for Summon Frostling).
8. Added new mana types to Palaces of Kuriotates, Illians, Sheaim and Grigori.
9. Reduced ConstAppearance of grassland/forest Deer.
10. Removed latitude restrictions of pigs (other requirements still apply).

Patch K
1. Corrected issue with removing resource blocks by declaring peace.
2. Basium will no longer steal cities other than the one that built the Mercurian Gate.

Patch J
1. Adepts, Mages etc can now correctly construct Creation, Force, Ice and Dimensional nodes.
2. Icons for new Mana now different from the sphere promotions (helps to tell them apart when building nodes)
3. Gamefont icons updated and tidied up (Xienwolf gets along with that file much better than I do - hates it we do...)

Patch I
1. Fixed issue with delayed spells and SelectionGroup handling.
2. Improved SelectionGroup handling - partially blinded/immobilized groups will split up and continue to attack instead of waiting for all members to be mobile again.
3. Revealing Glow/Shadowy Fringe disabled.
4. Included Erebus-Wrap mapscript (missing from last release)
5. Added Creation Mana.
6. Added Promotions "Creation I - III".
7. Added Growth building (+15% food stored, +1 Health from Corn, Rice, Wheat, Pig, Cow, Sheep)
8. Added Growth spell. Requires Creation I. Creates Growth Building whilst caster remains in city.
9. Added Fertility Spell. Requires Creation II. Swaps Corn/Rice/Wheat resources. Swaps Pig/Cow/Sheep resources.
10. Added Birth Spell. Requires Creation III. +1 Population in city. Cannot raise population about 8.
11. Added Dimensional Mana.
12. Added Promotions "Dimensional I-III".
13. Swapped requirement for Escape from UNIT_CHANTER to PROMOTION_DIMENSIONAL1.
14. Granted Chanter's Dimensional I as a start promotion.
15. Promotion Dimensional 2 grants +3 teleport range.
16. Promotion Dimensional 3 creates Dimensional Gate (1 Airlift per turn).
17. Added Nexus Portal building (1 Airlift per turn)
18. Nexus now grants free Nexus Portals instead of Obsidian Gates.
19. Obsidian gate now allows 3 Airlifts per turn. (5 max airlifts with Nexus and Dimensional Gate - Obsidian Gates remain useful even after The Nexus for large cities).
20. Obsidian gate cost increased from 300 to 500 (Infernals still get them for free).
21. Added Force Mana.
22. Added Promotions "Force I-III"
23. Promotion Force I grants a magic missile ranged attack (AirCombat 2, Range 1, Damage Limit 90%)
24. Added Unstoppable promotion. Grants collateral damage, ignore terrain cost and immunity to first strikes to Melee/Mounted Units. Cannot be bought with experience.
25. Added Determination spell. Requires Force 2 promotion. Grants Unstoppable promotion to Melee/Mounted units in the stack.
26. Added Force Wall building. Prevents units of less than Level 4 from entering the tile.
27. Added Force Wall spell. Requires Force 3 promotion. Creates Force Wall whilst caster remains in city.
28. Added Ice Mana.
29. Added Promotions "Ice I-III".
30. Added Summon Frostling spell. Requires Ice 1 promotion.
31. Added Stasis promotion. -100% Experience gain. 30% chance to wear off per turn. Cannot be bought with experience.
32. Added Stasis Curse spell. Requires Ice 2 promotion. Range 1, effects enemy units. Inflicts the Stasis promotion.
33. Added Frozen Lands spell. Requires Ice 3 promotion. Will degrade land toward Snow/Ice within 3 tiles of caster. No effect on non-enemy land. Will effect unowned, enemy or own land. Effect lasts approximately 10-20 turns.
34. Blood of the Phoenix will now only apply Immortal promotion to units with a UnitCombat (no more Immortal Settlers/GP)
35. AI will now be more likely to build a unit when it gets bored (previously it would build a low priority building or a ritual - especially Dowsing).
36. Tower of Mastery prerequisite towers now need 5 mana types each. Mana types adjusted to match the ones actually on the relevant tech.
37. Fixed an issue with Curse the Land carrying over between games (now *THAT's* powerful...)
38. Added a "No Promotion". Can be taken only if you have a UnitCombat and have taken all other available promotions. Allows the unit to gain a level and heal as normal, but adds no promotion.
39. Curse the Land may only be used 3 times per team (previously 5 times).
40. Curse the Land now costs 1800 hammers (should have cost that anyway, but got changed to 1000 at some point).
41. Warning is given when a player commences a ritual.
42. Curse the Land effect is automatically removed if you are no longer at war with anyone (alternative way out - make peace).


Patch H
1. Guardian of Pristin Pass spawned Gargoyles set to UNITAI_ANIMAL (won't enter borders - prevents games being *very* short if you start near the guardian).
2. Lizardman Berserker animation issue resolved.
3. Player "Feats" are now defined in XML rather than hard-coded in the DLL (very handy for modders).
4. Leaders will now correctly forget the diplomacy boost from promotions.
5. Corlindale granted "Soft Spoken" - provides a diplomatic boost with a civ if close to their cities.
6. Archos start with 1 Baby spider instead of 2.
7. Foxford unique feature and events added (Night of the Werewolf tribute).
8. Added "Light of Lugus" ritual - reveals all units in territory for 3 turns. (benefit for non-founder, repeatable)
9. Added "Chosen of Esus" ritual - grants invisibility to all your units within your borders for 10 turns. (benefit for non-founder, repeatable)
10. Added "Dowsing" ritual - shows location of hidden resources on resource overlay for 3 turns without need for the "Reveals" tech.
11. Added "Curse the Land" - expensive ritual that afflicts all nations you are currently at war with. Each nation loses access to all bonus resources whilst ritual is in effect.
12. Added "Appease Divinity" - cheaper ritual that most be completed 5 times in order to reverse the effects of "Curse the Land" (can be constructed in multiple cities at once).
13. Religion adoption chance for units modified. Units now most likely to adopt state religion, then an equal chance of any other (used to favour the later defined religions)
14. Reagents not revealed until Sorcery.
15. Animals can no longer purchase "Feral" with experience.
16. Harmatt cost increased to 90, also requires Tracking.
17. Prereqs added to promotions for PrereqEvent and PrereqFeat (again - handy for modders).
18. Landmark signs for Unique Features temporarily disabled (very strange behaviour in MP - one sign per human player per feature in random locations - will fix before re-enabling).
19. Eyes and Ears network will now grant religious specific techs (Arete, Mind stapling etc) if you have the correct state religion.
20. Massive overhaul of interface - Artwork by SeZereth, Python by Xienwolf.
21. Removed Great General bar from Military Advisor (not used).
22. Added "Shadowy Fringe" interface effect (active when your units are hidden within your borders).
23. Added "Revealing Glow" interface effect (active when hidden units are auto-revealed within your borders).
24. Flavour-mod updates from Jean-Elcard.
25. "Purge the Unfaithful" ritual can now be used once per team.
26. Psions and Thades are now "Elemental".
27. Lost Lands trade route percentages rebalanced.
28. Lost Lands Villages are -1 Commerce, +1 Food.
29. Lost Lands Towns are -2 Commerce, +1 Food, +1 Hammer.
30. Included "Erebus-Wrap" map script. Standard Erebus script with both X and Y world wraps.
31. Added "Arctic Deer" resource. Terrain preferences as the original deer (Tundra Forest). +2 Food natively (Deer is +1, these are larger). +1 Commerce with camp (Large Antlers highly prized).
32. Deer resource prefers Grassland Forest and appears approximately as rarely as a Horse. Will not appear at higher latitudes.
33. Both Deer resources can be used to produce Fyrdwell, construct camps and provide health in the Hunting Lodge.
34. Dye and Silk resources won't clump so dramatically, but will still be common in certain regions (previously 50% chance of extra resource in each adjacent square, now 5% chance over a 4-square radius)
35. Added "Nomad Camp" improvement. Malakim only. Desert Only. Grants +1 Food/Hammer/Commerce. Cannot be built adjacent to another camp. Allows Incense to be worked at full value (+5 commerce - early access as no need for Calendar).
36. Negative Diplo-Resources (Entropy and Death Mana) now require Necromancy to "CityTrade" - no more negative diplomacy for simply having a road near Bradelines Well.

Patch G
1. Windmill and Watermill prereqs moved to Construction from Engineering.
2. Windmill and Watermill upgrade prereqs moved to Engineering from Machinery.
3. Gifts of Nantosuelta requires Masonry.
4. Maelstrom brought back in line with FfH033 (will affect team/neutral units).
5. Courage no longer effects neutral units.
6. Disappearing interface fixed, still need to work on the speed further (one area of the code is tidier, but it doesn't seem to have made it much faster)
7. Removed RescueAdventurer as an option from lair exploration - had no result for non-Grigori players.
8. Lizard priest (Omorr, Agruonn and Kalshekk) entries fixed.
9. Boost Elohim flavour preference for the beneficial sites - you should be more likely to start next to one of them now.

Patch F
1. Updated to FfH 033 Patch e
2. Fixed Summon Treant
3. Fixed Unyielding Order
4. Fixed Equipment passing for FF Magic Items (thanks Elm)
5. Reworked MainInterface to track current HUD and Religion settings (reduces overhead slightly - not sure if it will have an impact on the speed - feedback welcomed)

Patch E
1. CtD related to unit upgrades for units without a race fixed.
2. Artwork added for Lizardman promotion and Deep Jungle button.
3. Lucian can be upgraded following the Axeman line. Retains his name and the single unit graphics.
4. Elohim pacifist promotion only applies when outside their own borders (should help to handle the barbarians early game).
5. Base combat strength is now capped at a minimum of 0 regardless of promotions. Corlindale returned to 0/0 strength.
6. Monks set to Str 4/5.
7. Abbey no longer buildable by some races that should not be able to.
8. TechPrereq for Abbey reduced from Religious Law to Priesthood.
9. (Hopefully) Resolved issue with upgrades. If there's any further odd behaviour - please let us know.
10. Xienwolf's Adaptive Trait tool tips re-enabled (lost them with 033).
11. Prereq tags for inOwnBorders, inTeammateBorders, inRivalBorders (neutral, non team), inEnemyBorders (at war) and inNoBorders (unowned) added for Promotions.

Patch D
1. Help text for Elohim Pool of Tears fixed. Should be "Gain the Expansive Trait".
2. Fixed racial promotions when upgrading.
3. Allowed the Elohim to build their UB's correctly again (D'oh!)
4. Prevented Malakim from constructing Tumtum

Patch C
1. Missing Text Keys included (FFH2_Gametext now part of the standard release)
2. Decius will update his Broad Alignment when choosing alignment.
3. Assimilation upgrades fixed
4. Sphener and MoM menu screens added as options
5. Decius Gains "Conqueror" trait (rebranded "Tolerant"), but loses Raiders.
6. Added Monastery UB for the Elohim (Replaces Pagan Temple, GPP bonus, +1 Culture, Happiness from Spirit Mana instead of Incense, Allows 1 Sage)
7. Added Archives UB for the Elohim (Replaces Library, requires Monastery, +40% Science, Priest instead of Sage)
8. Added Abbey UB for the Elohim (requires 4 Pagan Temples, Culture bonus, Produces +2GPP (Prophet), 1 Happiness per 20% culture, required for Monks to learn "Purity" and "Focus")
9. Added Minster UB for the Elohim (requires 2 Abbey's, National Wonder, Significant Culture/GPP, 1 Happiness per 10% culture, required for Monks to learn "Enlightenment")
10. Elohim Racial Promotion - Pacifist. -1 Offensive Combat Strength.
11. Monks changed to be Strength 4/5, Move 1.
12. Added "Purity" (requires: Monk, Abbey, Level 4. AutoAcquired. +100% Resistance to Poison Damage, +25% Resistance to Unholy Damage, Immune to Disease/Plague).
13. Added "Focus" (requires: Monk, Abbey, Level 6. AutoAcquired. +1 Spirit Affinity, +25% Resistance to Unholy Damage).
14. Added "Enlightenment" (requires: Monk, Minster, Level 12. AutoAcquired. +1 Spirit Affinity, Immune to Fear, Immune to Magic).
15. Achieving "Enlightenment" grants the Honorific title of "Sohei".
16. Added Bradeline's Well Unique Feature (Entropy Mana Source, +4 Commerce with Corruption of Spirit)
17. If controlled by Sheaim player with Knowledge of the Ether, Bradeline's well has small chance per turn of summoning an Imp or Pit Beast under player's control.
18. If visited by the Elohim, Bradeline's Well can be "repaired". Removes the mana source, reduces AC by 5, prevents Sheaim summoning event.
19. Added Sirona's Beacon Unique Feature (Spirit Mana Source, +2 happy in nearby cities)
20. If visited by the Elohim, Sirona's Beacon grants them the "Spiritual" trait.
21. If visited by the Elohim, Remnants of Patria grants them the "Industrious" trait.
22. If visited by the Elohim, Pool of Tears grants them the "Expansive" trait.
23. If visited by the Elohim, Mirror of Heaven grants +1 Happiness in all Elohim cities.
24. If visited by the Elohim, Odio's Prison will reset their world spell use ("Birthright Regained").
25. Corlindale grants 1 additional vote on the over council. Strength set to 1/0 (becomes 0/0 with Pacifist)
26. Elohim lose the Tolerant trait.
27. Added Silver Circle Wonder (requires Alteration and Currency, +25% Science/Currency, allows construction of Wandering Sages).
28. Added Wandering Sage unit (requires Silver Circle, allows construction of Enchanter's Enclave building, can perform small trade missions).
29. Added Enchanter's Enclave building (can only be constructed by Wandering Sage, +5% commerce bonus for Gold, Gems, Mithril, Reagents, Incense, +1 Happiness with Enchantment Mana).
30. CtD on mouseover of City Maintenance fixed.


Patch B
1. Updated for 033c
2. Artwork for Volcano replaced with HRochland's volcano
3. Mount Kalshekk unique feature added. Volcano which the Mazatl sheltered in during the Age of Ice - appears in Jungle, +2 hammers, +2 hammers with Mining, Provides Earth Mana
4. Standing Stones now grant Nature Mana (switched to prevent duplication of unique Mana sources)
5. Raiders icon altered (no longer looks the same as Bronze Working)
6. Armageddon counter/End Turn button reworked (should look/work better now).
7. Bad reference to python prereq on CommanderSplit removed.
8. Bad reference to python prereq on TreetopDefense removed.

Patch A
1. Summons handling fixed
2. Goody huts will no longer occasionally provide double bonuses
3. Planar Gate experience bonus fixed
4. Sominum and Scenario icons replaced
5. Marksman promotion now requires that the target unit be living to consider it as being the weakest.
6. Puppet Promotion readded. Same effects as Golem, plus CounterTargetWeakest (the mage has complete control of the puppet and will put it in the path of danger).
7. Removed Combat promotion line as an option for Siege units.
8. Added Assault promotion line as an option for Siege units (3 promotions, each granting +100% City Attack)


Screenshots

Installation Instructions

Since 040 an installer has been provided.

1. Install the latest version of Fall from Heaven 2 using the executable.
2. Install the latest patch for Fall from Heaven 2 using the executable.
3. Install Fall Further using the executable. This will copy your FfH2 installation from the default location to a "Fall Further" directory, then update the files as necessary.


Main Fall Further Download Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8500)

Notes
The current version of this modmod is for Fall from Heaven 2033 Patch e. I will update as the main mod increases in Patch version.

Previous Versions Changelog

Version 041
1. Resolved an issue with UnitConvert (Warrior->Drown, Archmage->Lich etc)
2. Xienwolf is now working on the DLL (and some other things beside) and has incorporated all of his changes from his ModComp
3. Broader Alignment is now a Game Option
4. Permanent summons are now 1 per caster, linked to that caster.
5. All summons will die at the start of the turn if their summoner is dead/has betrayed the player. (this will be developed further in 042)
6. "Divided Soul" Sidar unit implemented as described in the Shadow Unit Design Contest here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253190)
7. "Sever soul" and "Ethereal Call" spells implemented for the Divided Soul unit (allows the unit to teleport to its "other half")
8. Artwork added for new Magic Items (thanks to Psychic_Llamas for the Mark of Chaos icons)
9. Artwork for Austrin civ button fixed
10. Mod is no longer dependent on the resources in the Fall from Heaven main directory (GFC Primary Theme errors should be gone provided you don't rename \Fall Further 041\)
11. Animals no longer have a time limit. They will spawn all game long (until there's no space to do so) and do not reduce normal barbarian levels.
12. XML in some files is "trimmed" using the method pioneered in Xienwolf's modcomp. Reduces size and makes it easy to see what a promotion etc does. (only relevant to Modders)
13. Dural Statues re-ordered slightly to reflect new spells.
14. All level 1 spells no longer require Channeling I - this is purely for experience gain now.
15. Firebows receive a unit specific spell "Ignite" - similar effect to their original fireball.
16. TXT_KEY_POPUP_DEIRDRA_DEFEATED added - time for some last words.
17. Unique Feature Happiness now works correctly (both in 'pedia and in-game).
18. Valor now grants +100% experience gain rate, but has a 20% chance of wearing off per turn (Archmages should be on the front lines).
19. Harmatt is now UNIT_COMBAT_RECON and has -20% strength when attacking cities (I suspect he may need further toning - let me know)
20. Alignment Meter has been disabled.
21. UnitStats has been incorporated - use the "Trophy" icon in the top right or press "U" to access unit statistics (Thanks Teg Navanis)
22. Under/Over council prereqs have been moved to Way of the Wicked/Way of the Wise - allows all civs to access the councils.
23. Casters belonging to a Summoner Trait leader will gain 50% of the experience of their summons when the summon dies.

Patch D for 041 (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/FF041-PatchD.exe)
1. Added Corpseflies promotion - reduces health in adjacent cities by 0.40 (same as Flood Plains).
2. Diseased Corpses now start with Corpseflies promotion.
3. Added People's Champion promotion - increases happiness in city by 3 when unit is garrisoned.
4. Donal Lugh now starts with People's Champion promotion.
5. Sacrifice the Weak now requires 1.5 food per citizen (increased from 1 - balance experiment)
6. Code added to allow specific Civilizations to have higher/lower/blocked rates of passive religion spread (not used yet - for Malakim and Kahdi).
7. Code added to allow goody huts to provide random amounts of beakers (or remove them) - plan to make "free full techs" much rarer at higher difficulties. (not used yet)
8. Removed all default Civ4, Warlords and Beyond the Sword "Main Menus" (background and music)
9. Implemented Fall from Heaven Menu as an actual menu choice, rather than simply overriding existing files.
10. Added a Fall Further specific main menu - you can switch back to the original using the Options menu.
11. New Graphic for Brigit
12. Elephant upgrades now handled through spell mechanic - works around the level requirement for "No AI Level Requirements".
13. AI more likely to take "Subdue" promotions for recon units (tackles the extra animals and increases the chances to tame elephants or other animals.
14. Instability promotion added (-50% combat strength)
15. Seven Pines world feature added. Moderate yields, enchantment mana, adds Instability promotion to all Angels/Demons within 2 tiles (removed once they move away).
16. FlavourMod incorporated (thanks Jean Elcard).
17. Fixed potential CtD with the Windsword spell "Bladewind".
18. Added "House of the Grey" - Sidar UB Hunting Lodge (req. Mysticism, +1 Happy with Spirit Mana, +1 Health with Shadow Mana. Normal bonuses for Fur/Deer removed).
19. Divided Soul building prereq moved back to "BUILDINGCLASS_HUNTING_LODGE" (which is now the House of the Grey).
20. Added "Buccaneer" unit - Strength 4, WeaponTier 0, Starts with Boarding, Cannot be Built.
21. Added "Buccaneer's Spirit" spell - Castable by any Lanun Naval Unit with promotion "Buccaneer Crew". Summons a Buccaneer unit (1 turn). Removes Buccaneer Crew. (note: If summoned by a HN unit, the Buccaneers are also HN - for Pirates/Black Wind)
22. Re-added Alignment Info displays to MainInterface (classic style, not BUG)
23. Pre-emptive change to "unit model" display in bottom left corner - will be part of FfH033 anyway. Larger unit model, in position for new interface.
24. Summoner units display their summons below the UnitModel in the bottom left corner. Clicking selects the summon.
25. Summoned units display their summoner in a similar location (further right). Clicking selects the summoner.
26. Fix which prevents Council of Esus to be spread before founding (through Undercouncil resolutions).
27. The random result for "Wonder" which creates a "confused Spiderkin" in the main mod now allows the caster to cast "Sever Soul" instead (as with Divided Soul).
28. No longer uses FFHBUG main interface. Now uses an earlier version with some BUG features added (resolves python stability issues by removing the cause)
29. Applied same fix to UnitUpgradeFromCombat as was applied to UnitConvert (Baby spiders automatically growing up should no longer upset PLE).
30. Updated FFHBUG with new mod directory name (Contrib\ModName.py).

Version 040

1. Updated for FfH 032l and BtS 3.17
2. Austrin Civilization added (Air/Tali inspired explorer race)
3. Hell terrain versions of Ocean and Coast added (Blackwater and Blighted Coast)
4. FFHBUG included - many interface upgrades, almost all of which can be deactivated if you wish (CTRL-ALT-O to access the options screen, you can also turn off the "Reminder Message" on that screen)
5. Mazatl Priests reworked slightly - may need a bit of further work later
6. TXT_KEY fixed in Diplo messages
7. Sacrifice now correctly requires either Demon's Altar or Sacrificial Altar (it previously worked so long as you didn't have the Sacrificial Altar. Oops.)
8. Harmatt is suitably Heroic again.
9. TXT_KEY_HINTs moved from the base Civ4 folder into the file that BUG added with the same name (I suspect that was a mistake on their part, but this resolves it temporarily).
10. ModName resolved (CTRL-ALT-O bug)
11. Hippus and Austrin can no longer build Meskwaki
12. Fixed an issue with multiplayer scorelists
13. Fixed the behaviour of unique features (they will incorrectly list large happiness bonuses (+100, +300) until I rework the DLL, but the actual effects are correct (+1, +3) )




Version 033
1. Updated for 032e
2. Some code tidied for easier "ModModModding" (some files had new contents moved to the end of the file rather than integrated with FFH content, some tags made optional/MinOccure=0)
3. Vassal/Religion weights brought back in line with Kael's (I added Vassal requirements after they were discussed on this board, but now Kael has added them too so I've deferred to his)
4. Some player-text colours altered for better clarity (hopefully).

Version 032
1. Updated for 032d

Version 031
1. Updated for 032
2. Natane added (Chislev leader, Daughter of Absaroke)
3. Options added to disable any FF race
4. Khazad made more Neutral (Alignment 25 instead of 150).
5. Religion alignment shifts tweaked.
6. Treasure Vault dungeon event now grants gold correctly
7. Lich dungeon event now spawns Lich correctly (don't worry - he's not as bad as Barbatos...)
8. Lost Lands strategy text added
9. All new magic items can now be picked up/passed around correctly
10. Kitteh no can has a debug message
11. Armageddon counter art added back from old FPK
12. Oghma Kahdi vault creatures correctly get Strong Promotion.
13. Kahdi Gate builds twice as quickly with Spiritual
14. Meditation Hall builds twice as quickly with Spiritual
15. Thade is now a Disciple unit
16. Thade chance per spell sphere increased from 12.5% to 20%
17. Meditation Hall allows a sage
18. Meditation Hall grants 1 happiness with Incense
19. Monument to Avarice builds twice as quickly with Gold resource
20. Min/Max Alignments shifted to -500/+500
21. Numerical Alignment now displayed on score list (and when right clicking alignment meter
22. Armageddon counter now displays the "Raw Counter" and "Counter Limit"
23. Fire-style Armageddon counter readded, displaying the percentage (city screen issue resolved.
24. Religion Alignment shift rebalanced for new scale (Order/Ashen +/- 500, Empyrean/Esus +/- 250, Runes/Overlords +/- 125)
25. Kahdi Phalanx and Immortal enabled (only Champion should be blocked).
26. Kahdi Rider replaced Horse Archer.
27. Hianthrogh and Kahd no longer have gender-identity issues.
28. Kahd can no longer adopt Fellowship of the Leaves.
29. Kahd likes the Great Library now (instead of Prophecy of Ragnarok)
30. Baby spider are ANIMAL_INVISIBLE now, as with Giant spider (and no - Mother can't have it too :p)
31. Kahdi arcane upgrade costs scaled back
32. Mammon-Kahd should now be available if you selected the Mammon path.
33. Gnosling Knowledge gain TextKey fixed.
34. Gnosling Knowledge gain amount reduced (now 2 x opponents level)
35. Kahd cannot build Abashi.

Version 030
1. Explorable Lairs (original by Marnok)
2. Broader Alignment (original by Grey Fox)
3. Worker Promotions (original by Xienwolf)
4. Diverse Citysets
5. Kahdi Civilization
6, Lost Lands moved to Currency
7. Barterhouse replaces Money Changer (available at currency, +50% Trade Route Yield)
8. Mazatl Capital provides +50% trade route yield.
9. Lost Lands no longer provides +1 Commerce with Swamp.
10. Lost Lands now provides +75% Hammer/Food yield to Trade Routes and -25% commerce.
11. Lost Lands provides additional trade routes in every city.
12. Raider promotion added - automatically pillages improvements once when you enter a tile if at war with the owner .
13. Raiders trait now grants Raider Promotion instead of Commando.
14. New magic items added, mostly available through the Dungeon Exploration mechanic.
15. Existing magic items renamed with a {Item} prefix so that all appear together in Civilopedia.
16. Pirate Coves made unpillagable.
17. Growth Rate of Pirate Coves/Ports slowed.
18. Hyborem and Basium granted experience upon spawning
19. Hyborem spawns with an Attack AI rather than City Defense.
20. Hyborem switches to City Defense AI after losing his Immortal Promotion.
21. Teleporting units enabled through Paradrop interface (used by Thades)
22. Recon/Rebase Hawk command icons replaced with pre-Shadow artwork (BtS used an Atlas for the icons, I just put the original FfH art back)
23. No addition food from swamps with Feral Bond.
24. Citybar size increased (Modcomp by asioasioasio here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239221))
25. Some event options related to the new civs added - more to come.
26. Monks start with Guardsman
27. Guardsman available to Defensive civilizations (Homeland is a prereq)
28. Kolsehvahn 'pedia entry linked properly
29. Lizard Blowpipe button art fixed
30. Reported Dural diplo-text corrected (there may well be more - let me know)
31. Mazatl-specific temples can be built correctly again.
32. Further check to prevent Deep Jungles from spawning using certain Mapscripts. Should now be impossible for them to spawn at game start using *any* script.


Version 022 - Updated for 031e (previous patch bundled)
0. Merged with 031e
1. Priests of Omorr now cast Floating Eye, Spirit Guide, Dispel Magic and "Purify" (new spell, combines the effects of Remove Disease and Sanctify, Priests of Omorr only).
2. Lizard units should all be set to "No religion" on creation (resolves Shield of Faith/other religion specific spells on Priests)
3. Lizard cities can no longer build temples of the normal religions.
4. Deep Jungle should not be created by the map script Normalize function at game start.
5. Fixed Prereqs for Spiritual Hammer on Priests of Kalshekk
6. Fixed Scorch behaviour (was previously checking requirements but producing no effect on Wetland/Swamp)
7. Shadow-class units can investigate. Shadow-Priests can no longer Sabotage/Steal Plans.


Version 021 - Updated for FFH2 031
0. Updated for FFH2031d
1. Blowpipe units enabled for Lizard civs
2. Lizard priest unit spells adjusted for new spell system
3. Lost Lands reduced to +0.5 Happy per Jungle
4. Guardian of Nature reduced to +0.5 Happy per Forest/Jungle, +0.75 Happy per Ancient Forest
5. Coatlann now requires Arcane Lore, Theology and Righteouness
6. Shadow Priests (including Misquiztli) now require Malevolent Designs
7. Transmute and Spiritual Hammer re-added as Priest of Kalshekk only unit spells


Version 020 - Mazatl and Cualli Civilizations Added
1. Mazatl - A new race of lizardmen, good alignment, opposed to Armageddon.
2. Cualli - A new race of lizardmen, evil alignment, bloodthirsty servants of Agruonn/Aeron.
3. Diplomacy Text fixes - some updated diplomacy fixes for Archos, Dural and Chislev

Version 012 - Artwork added and balance changes
1. Meskwaki - Tech Prereq moved to Arcane Lore. 2nd Tech Prereq at Warfare.
2. Archos Immortals - Made unique, combat strength partially poison damage, first strikes added for additional limbs.
3. Dural Statues - costs rebalanced to better reflect their usefulness and level.
4. Archos Spiderkin - Get their "Subdue Beasts" back.
5. Chislev Early Game - Ancient chants as a starting tech and the Tribal Council receives it's missing beaker.
6. Dural Statues - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
7. Archos, Dural and Chislev Palaces - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
8. Fixed CtD caused by building Archos Chosen.

Version 011 - Updated for 2030k and previous patches bundled
1. Added Chislev Unit Button Art
2. Added Chislev Building Button Art
3. Added "Student" unique units to Dural

Version 010 - Initial Release

DLL Source
Updated for 042h.

Download Changed DLL files here (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/xienwolf/FF%20042%20DLL%20Source.zip)

Credits

Archos Civ
Unit Art - Modified from existing FFH Artwork
Leaderhead - "Thomas Anlauf" (Posted on Elfwood)
Music - Posted previously by Stoik (DiploWar music)
Original Suggestion and Flag - Slvynn
Palace Art - Woodelf and Winddelay

Chislev Civ
Unit Art - bernie14, sepamu92 (From Civfanatics FileDB)
Leaderhead - Kirby Sattler (Website here (http://kirbysattler.sattlerartprint.com/))
Music - White Buffalo by Native Amazonas
Palace Art - Woodelf and Winddelay

Dural Civ
Unit Art - danrell (From Civfanatics FileDB)
Leaderhead - Patron Wizard (Magic: The Gathering)
Music - Posted previously by Stoik (DiploWar music)
Palace Art - Woodelf and Winddelay
Statues of the Seven Virtues Art - Woodelf and Winddelay

Mazatl Civ
Unit Art - From Dragonia Mod (Woodelf, Winddelay and Darque)
Music - Posted previously by Stoik (DiploWar music)
Palace Art - Woodelf and Winddelay
Hero Art and Wyvern Guard - remodeled and reskinned by Winddelay

Cualli Civ
Unit Art - From Dragonia Mod (Woodelf, Winddelay and Darque)
Leaderhead - Saurus Warrior (WHFB - property of Games Workshop)
Music - Posted previously by Stoik (DiploWar music)
Palace Art - Woodelf and Winddelay

Kahdi Civ
Initial civ concept, concept artwork and original lore: Slyvnn
Unit Art - NikNaks, Slyvnn and Varietas Delectat
Music - Ambition (louisfoxfire.com)

Diverse Citysets
Woodelf, Winddelay and Darque (Dragonia II mod)
GeoModder, asioasioasio, Chamaedrys, C.Roland, Ganart, Sevo, White Rabbit, Woodelf and "the FfH art team" (Ethnic Citystyles Mod)

FFHBUG

Ported to FfH by Falc.
BUG mod by "The BUG team"
Component mods by Emperor Fool, SimCutie, Impaler[WrG], TheLopez, AsioAsioAsio, Ruff_hi, Alerum68, eotinb, Dr Elmer Jiggles, Taelis, Cammagno, Sevo and Chinese American

Other
It goes without saying, but this modmod is only possible because of the FFH2 mod itself, which I have spent far too many hours enjoying and for which I am grateful to all members of the Modteam.
Swamp artwork adapted from Marsh terrain by Rhye
Explorable Lairs - original by Marnok
Broader Alignment - original by Grey Fox
Worker Promotions - original by Xienwolf
Seven Pines Artwork - Psychic_Llamas
Main Menu Image - Wojciech ( Voytek ) Nowakowski (http://www.voytek-art.com/digital_paintings.htm) (without permission - will be removed if requested)
Main Menu Soundtrack - Phoenix Chronicles (Draqo) (http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/158823)

Known Issues
None as yet.

oooo ... looks interesting!!!

Over to you
And this is the last post position I'm going to steal. I've spent a fair bit of time testing and tweaking over the last few days, but I know that the true test of any mod (or modmod) is when the rest of the community get their hands on it. Please - post any suggestions, requests, bug reports and shouts of "Yah-boo! UR Mod sux noob!" here. I will say now that some of the civs may require slightly different approaches to what you're used to, so give them a fair chance. On the other hand, I've balanced across the civ (in the same was as the Modteam) rather than on any specific point, so yes - certain abilities may seem strong, but be sure that there isn't a counter-point elsewhere.

Last of all - I hope people actually use and enjoy these civs. They took a couple of weeks to complete and I've grown quite attached to them - I'd love to hear any After-Action-Reports from anyone using them.

Just in case you don't realize, your evil civ won't be able to utilize their unique druid unless they change alignment (to neutral by adopting runes). Maybe that's fine with you, or maybe you'd rather change it to a unique eidolon or mage.

edit: or use Magister's better suggestion.

That isn't entirely true; it is possible that one of the differences between the Haruspex and a normal druid is the that they don't have an alignment restriction, or they could even require evil alignment. The Alignment restriction is handled in the individual units xml defines.

(I'm probably removing the alignment restriction from druids in my modmod, giving them 2 spheres, and making them require a minimum level)

Hope that it is no alignment restriction, otherwise when you do change to Neutral as them you are stuck with no access to normal OR unique druids...


Of course, that means they can get both Eidolons & Druids (or if they go Good they can get both Paladins & Druids, but you can do that anyway with a properly timed alignment shift)

Just in case you don't realize, your evil civ won't be able to utilize their unique druid unless they change alignment (to neutral by adopting runes). Maybe that's fine with you, or maybe you'd rather change it to a unique eidolon or mage.

edit: or use Magister's better suggestion.

Aye - that's covered - no Alignment restrictions on them. As Xienwolf says, it does mean you can pickup Eidolon/Paladins in addition, but the techs for each are high level and sufficiently separated that it'd be a major research investment so it's not easily "exploited".

Very nice Vehem !

Very nice Vehem !

Thanks - have you had chance to play with them yet or are you just looking over the thread?

==
I've just had a 3-way multiplayer game which was going quite nicely, one person in command of each new race. Sadly my Archos got a bit culture-squished in the corner by another human player controlling the Dural, but I did get chance to release Mother and she's always fun to have around. Early-game baby-spider hijinks were also good fun - munching a worker or two and the occasional warrior.

haha great job , nice to see Archos in action.
gonna try to play full game with archos.
:goodjob:

Excellent. It's like an FfH expansion pack. You've done a fantastic job adding some nice variety, seemlessly. I've got a nice game going as Archos with the Luana pinned down, alone on the continent with me. Neat how you've included the spiders in their game given thier background story. BTW, I thought the Archos' story was well written. No squawks yet, I'll keep at it with a few more new civs to try. This'll be my standard mod for a time. Thanks for a new look at FfH. :goodjob:

Very enjoyable new Civilizations :) (And my modules even work for it. Yipee!).

If I had to complain about anything it would be that you didn't include a new shortcut with unique icon for your own mod (well, and that you didn't post it in the mods forum :P Woodelf can fix that one easy enough).

Much love for the Neutral Civ so far.

It looks like you put quite a bit of work into this, nice one :)

Im in the middle of a game with the Archos, and i have to say that what you have done is brilliant. these are by far one of the more flavourful civs in the game, the back story is great, the world spell is awsome, the unique unit art is nice, and the civilisations benefits and negatives are nicely balanced.

good job! i hope you will be makeing more modmods like this in the future :)

Hi played the Dural (will try the other two) I had so much fun I've only just realised that I was missing priests and temples. Particularity like their National wonders. Good work

OK, Vehem, I downloaded the file, unzipped it and placed it as specified in your instructions.

Please forgive my ignorance as I have never run a mod within a mod, so what is the best way to do that?

Are those 3 new civs available to me in my future games by just doing putting the unzipped files in the correct Assets directory? Will they be selected as part of the Random ai civ selection?

Or is there another step I have to do to load your mod after I am in FFH2.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to playing with/against those civs.:)

I think the Dural Hero lacks the flavour and character that the other heroes have, to me he just seems like an adventurer with a tiny advantage. is there some way that you could make him more unique? perhaps allow him to make a special tile improvement that, if inside the civs borders, grants the unit on it the courage, loyalty and homeland promotions temporarily? like some war statue that inspires the soldiers. or if not, make it a building like hope.

OK, Vehem, I downloaded the file, unzipped it and placed it as specified in your instructions.

Please forgive my ignorance as I have never run a mod within a mod, so what is the best way to do that?

Are those 3 new civs available to me in my future games by just doing putting the unzipped files in the correct Assets directory? Will they be selected as part of the Random ai civ selection?

Or is there another step I have to do to load your mod after I am in FFH2.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to playing with/against those civs.:)

Once the Assets are in place, they should appear in the list and the AI will select them randomly too, aye. I've tried to integrate them seamlessly to the main mod, simply extra content.

I think the Dural Hero lacks the flavour and character that the other heroes have, to me he just seems like an adventurer with a tiny advantage. is there some way that you could make him more unique? perhaps allow him to make a special tile improvement that, if inside the civs borders, grants the unit on it the courage, loyalty and homeland promotions temporarily? like some war statue that inspires the soldiers. or if not, make it a building like hope.

That was pretty much deliberate, at least the "small advantage" part. I didn't want any one unit of the Dural to drastically outshine the others but Karrlson is a particularly well-practiced warrior for the reasons outlined in his background story. He is basically a champion with an additional Strength, Movement and the Hero promotion - simply an "excellent warrior".

Looks good. Does it work with other modmods?

That was pretty much deliberate, at least the "small advantage" part. I didn't want any one unit of the Dural to drastically outshine the others but Karrlson is a particularly well-practiced warrior for the reasons outlined in his background story. He is basically a champion with an additional Strength, Movement and the Hero promotion - simply an "excellent warrior".

ok, thats fair enough :) id still like him to have some funky hero mechanic like the others though. but thats just personal preference.;)

Looks good. Does it work with other modmods?

Depends on the Modmod. Apparently it does with Xien's modules, but I imagine it won't blend with Magister's without a little work. Event mods should probably work fine - provided they stick to the normal events XML/Python files as I haven't touched those.

OK, I've played 250 turns (Epic speed) as Chislev. It is always fun trying a new civ, but so far this has been better with so many new things to see and try.

I only just got my 2nd city, though, as I have been getting pounded early by raging barbs (they came in force on turn 152, a little earlier than I expected).

Here are some of my early impressions:

1. What no starting tech? ;) This hurt me early in the game as most civs start with one. With the Spiritual trait how about starting with Ancient Chants?

2. GP points seem to be hard to come by for this new civ. I know it is early, but I used to enjoy getting that Pagan Temple so I could get Great Prophet pts. Not so with the replacement - btw, when you get Mysticism, the 2 replacements are showing the same picture as the old Elder Council...a little confusing.

3. I love the Totem of the Old Enemy. :) It is great that you brought back the good old Orcish promotion, especially at 20%...and my Hunters and Archers are getting it too! Not, my Adepts, though, but I cannot be greedy. It is helping a lot defending against the barb invasion.

4. The icons on screen are a bit confusing. There is a good unit model for both the Hunter and Archer, but the icon shown for both is the same as for the Warrior. I think even the Horse Archer uses the same icon.

I'm looking forward to getting some of the promised better things now that I have my 3rd city.

So far, and outstanding modmod! Thanks, Vehem.:)

Oh, one more thing...the Chislev hero seems so far away. I often don't even get to Strength of Will in many of my games. Any chance of moving this to Arcane Lore? Thanks.

OK, I've played 250 turns (Epic speed) as Chislev. It is always fun trying a new civ, but so far this has been better with so many new things to see and try.

I only just got my 2nd city, though, as I have been getting pounded early by raging barbs (they came in force on turn 152, a little earlier than I expected).

Here are some of my early impressions:

1. What no starting tech? ;) This hurt me early in the game as most civs start with one. With the Spiritual trait how about starting with Ancient Chants?

2. GP points seem to be hard to come by for this new civ. I know it is early, but I used to enjoy getting that Pagan Temple so I could get Great Prophet pts. Not so with the replacement - btw, when you get Mysticism, the 2 replacements are showing the same picture as the old Elder Council...a little confusing.

3. I love the Totem of the Old Enemy. :) It is great that you brought back the good old Orcish promotion, especially at 20%...and my Hunters and Archers are getting it too! Not, my Adepts, though, but I cannot be greedy. It is helping a lot defending against the barb invasion.

4. The icons on screen are a bit confusing. There is a good unit model for both the Hunter and Archer, but the icon shown for both is the same as for the Warrior. I think even the Horse Archer uses the same icon.

I'm looking forward to getting some of the promised better things now that I have my 3rd city.

So far, and outstanding modmod! Thanks, Vehem.:)

Oh, one more thing...the Chislev hero seems so far away. I often don't even get to Strength of Will in many of my games. Any chance of moving this to Arcane Lore? Thanks.

Thanks for the feedback - I'll see what I can do about the button-artwork tonight.

The lack of tech was a design choice to provide them with a slightly slower start as they can offset maintenance significantly with their later game abilites, plus it fits with the background and the fact they've just lost a lot of their tribe - they're effectively rebuilding from scratch. I do agree however that Ancient Chants would be an appropriate first tech for them (they had it originally, but I removed it as they could get education quite quickly with it). Something I'll seriously consider if other people feel the same way about the lack of tech.

Good point regarding Meskwaki as well - I would like to let him make an appearance in most games and Strength of Will is uniquely expensive. I may move him to Arcane Lore as you suggest and add a second lower level tech-requirement (along a different, useful research-line, possibly Warfare with "The Council of the Warchief")

I am strongly excited with your modmod, Vehem. I think you found a good balance between novelty and implementability. And I found at least 2 civs (Dural and Chislev) more interesting for builder (which I am) then Sidar (announced in Shadow as builder-oriented). :D Hope you will be enough patient to polish your modmod and update it with each patch. ;)

First few toughts.
1) Being able to found and adopt religion and being unable to spread it is frustrating. I'd like to make Dural able to build first-level disciples without prerequisite of temples. Otherwise Dural are too attached to Counsil of Esus, that is counter-intuitive IMO.
2) I feel that Giant spiders at time of Feral Bond are rather useless. Strength 4 (even 5 with strong), movement 1, no XP and support cost... Collecting spiders is costly. Constant attacking enemies with spiders just provide them XP. I didn't check but as I remember GS can't pillage. I think GS can be useful if they get movement and ability to pillage. But even in this case it means much micromanagement. Anotheir solution is to grant spiders Arcane promo which gives slow xp growth... But that is not enough. Maybe after Feral Bond give hero promo to each generated spider? :) But the best is to make spiders support-free for Archos if it is possible.

Anotheir solution is to grant spiders Arcane promo which gives slow xp growth... But that is not enough.


Keep in mind that the Arcane Promotion only grants caster xp, so it only gives xp to disciples and arcane units. It would be useless for spiders.

I've just posted a "Patch A" in the third part of the thread (Changelog and Patches (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6524211&postcount=3)) for 2030j-010 (these version numbers are getting ridiculous, but the first part is the FFH2 version, the "010" is the Fall Further version)

Included are the unit and building buttons for Chislev. I had meant to complete those initially but got caught up in writing the TXT_KEY's and background and simply forgot them. It's another "Assets" directory install, so just drop it into the mod-folder as you would with a FFH patch.

First few toughts.
1) Being able to found and adopt religion and being unable to spread it is frustrating. I'd like to make Dural able to build first-level disciples without prerequisite of temples. Otherwise Dural are too attached to Counsil of Esus, that is counter-intuitive IMO.

I've had a look into this one - it was pretty much supposed to work the way you suggested.

=====
To explain, there are two important tags relating to buildings. <BuildingClass> and <Type>. The BuildingClass is always BUILDINGCLASS_SOMETHING whilst the building is BUILDING_SOMETHING. In many cases the "SOMETHING" part is the same, but for Unique buildings, it differs. For instance, the Lanun Harbor starts with the following two lines


<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_HARBOR</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_HARBOR_LANUN</Type>


The "Type" is BUILDING_HARBOR_LANUN, but this is just a type of Harbor so it belongs to BUILDINGCLASS_HARBOR. In the Lanun CivInfo, BUILDINGCLASS_HARBOR is set to be replaced by this building, instead of the default BUILDING_HARBOR.

Normally, if a Unit relies on a BuildingClass being present, and that BuildingClass is set to "NONE" for the Civ, then that Civ does not require the building as a prerequisite. This is how the Doviello (and to a lesser extent, Archos) have some units that do not require the appropriate buildings.

The Religious units however do not depend upon <PrereqBuildingClass>, but have a <PrereqBuilding> tag. That means that races unable to build that *specific* building cannot build the unit at all.
====


I had assumed they behaved like the first, but they don't. The "fix" would be to switch

<PrereqReligion>RELIGION_FELLOWSHIP_OF_LEAVES</PrereqReligion>
<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
<PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_TEMPLE_OF_LEAVES</PrereqBuilding>
<PrereqTech>TECH_WAY_OF_THE_FORESTS</PrereqTech>


for


<PrereqReligion>RELIGION_FELLOWSHIP_OF_LEAVES</PrereqReligion>
<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
<PrereqBuilding>NONE</PrereqBuilding>
<PrereqTech>TECH_WAY_OF_THE_FORESTS</PrereqTech>


in each Disciple and then add


<PrereqAlignment>NONE</PrereqAlignment>
<PrereqBuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_TEMPLE_OF_LEAVES</PrereqBuildingClass>
<PrereqCivic>NONE</PrereqCivic>


further down in the file. I'm not sure at the moment however whether the Grigori (and possibly Illians) rely on this behaviour to block their religion spreading units being built, so I'd need to check that before making it part of this mod - I don't want to break existing civs for the sake of new ones.

Thanks for spotting it - if it turns out that the Grigori don't rely on that, it'll be sorted out in a patch.

EDIT: They do rely on it. I can still get round that by explicitly banning the Grigori from building Disciple units, but I originally hoped not to have to alter any of Kael's civs as part of this mod (the behaviour wouldn't actually change so far as the player can see - but it would alter things "behind the scenes").

EDIT: They do rely on it. I can still get round that by explicitly banning the Grigori from building Disciple units, but I originally hoped not to have to alter any of Kael's civs as part of this mod (the behaviour wouldn't actually change so far as the player can see - but it would alter things "behind the scenes").

Hmm... I think there is a way to replace for Durals all 1lvl disciples by UUs with no building prereqs or replace temples by void UBs.

You could add a python block not allowing Agnostic civs to build temples.

Hmm... I think there is a way to replace for Durals all 1lvl disciples by UUs with no building prereqs or replace temples by void UBs.

That's the way Temples are currently blocked. The Unique disciples is an option. I was looking for a "neater" one but that might end up being the way I do it in preference to altering the Grigori.

A simple switch to "Student of the Leaves", "Student of Kilmorph" would be fairly painless - would there be any difference between a "Disciple" and a "Student" other than the name and Temple-reliance?

EDIT

You could add a python block not allowing Agnostic civs to build temples.

This is another solid option - but if I recall "CannotBuild" means that the building is "Greyed out" rather than absent, which may be irritating for Grigori players - will check that.
Also - it would probably be "Build Disciples" rather than "Build Temples" - I'd keep the old XML block on temples for them.

EDIT AGAIN: It doesn't grey out - so that would work. I'm still leaning toward the "Student" idea, but I'd like an extra feature for them to justify the unique units, rather than just as a method to get around the building prereqs. I'll ponder this some more

I've just posted a Patch B to sort out the Dural-disciples.

The Dural now have additional unique units to replace each of the Disciple units. These do not rely on the Temple building and have a basic Strength of 2 rather than 3. Each also has an additional, minor ability related to the religion they have studied.

Student of the Order - Students of the Order know the importance of defence (+1 Defensive Strength)
Student of the Veil - The teachings of the Veil lead to anger and aggression (+1 Offensive Strength)
Student of Kilmorph - Kilmorph teaches to build high your walls and protect your gold (Can Hurry buildings. 10 Hammers + 1 Hammer per city pop)
Student of Empyrean - The Empyrean advocates the application of wisdom in all matters (Can produce Research. 10 Beakers + 1 per city pop)
Student of the Overlords - Studying the Messages of the Overlords will surely lead to madness (3/1 Att/Def strengths, Crazed)
Student of the Leaves - The Fellowship are as one with the woodland (Starts with Woodsman 2)

The "minor abilities" are supposed to be exactly that - minor. Some (Overlords) are arguably even a negative ability. They do add flavour however to units who have dedicated their lives to better understand the religions of Erebus.

Well, since they are big on learning, they would be big on sharing ideas. So maybe you can find a way to make it so that simply connection via traderoutes automatically spreads religions for them? That way it won't take long for a Dural city to acquire any religion that has been founded anywhere in the known world. Then the player wouldn't NEED to spread the religions personally.

and it would encourage free religion for them, which is what i picture the Dural having.

My first idea about students was to give them level1 spells of corresponding mana (which is given by altar of religion). And allow them to upgrade to Professor. But it was too trivial... The patch B student differences surely only for flavor, no practical use.

Still I disagree that Order is defencive religion and doubt many others minor abilities. :)

BTW students can learn even CoE. :)

What is not so good is most of statues don't worth their hammers. Courage and Loyality are worst as one adept can do the job much better. As palace grants this mana the statues provide something which is not a problem even without them. The best statue of cause is the Statue of Glory and I am not sure all others worth building.
What to do:
1) Make the price of statues very low. 10 hammers.
2) Take out obelisks from Dural. Make all statues available at Ancient Chants, give them +2 culture only in addition to unique effect and a price of obelisk. (Also nice to allow only one statue per city but it is not necessary.)
3) Give a big prize when all statues are built. (Though I think it is not possible with xml only if statues are in different cities.)

Professors are nice by themselves but again they repeat effects accessable through palace mana. Also pity that they have no future - no upgrade path.

Haven't played yet, but I had a thought.

Couldn't you summon two Mother's with the Birthright Regained ritual?

Haven't played yet, but I had a thought.

Couldn't you summon two Mother's with the Birthright Regained ritual?

Aye - it's actually commented on in her 'pedia strategy entry too. You can't have a second Mother in play whilst the first is still alive however - I added a check to disallow that.

She can in-fact be released twice (using the Birthright Regained ritual),the tales of her first death were obviously greatly exaggerated (she was just pining for the Fjords). Only one instance of Mother can exist at a time however.

First up, hey excellent modmod... :goodjob:

Um... dont build the prophecy of ragnarok in ur capital if youre the Archos, unless you want to bring about armageddon... :crazyeye: haha. Whoops.

My favourite however of the three would have to be the Chislev... :) Havent played the Dural yet.

/already played some, awesome awesome job. Archos seem balanced too however spiders are weak except mother :) BUT
insane power recon line with harsupex that you can have in addition to eidolons.
Also, seem Archos are FoL only. They greatly benefit from FoL religion (capital size, Dark Wealds, Same tech line for religion heroes. ), while other religions being less preferable than FoL for them. This also cool from RP point of wiev, making them dark, wild preservers of nature, and original nature law - stronger survives.

I've just posted a Patch B to sort out the Dural-disciples.



OK, I downloaded and installed patch 'b.'

It didn't affect the Chislev button problem - it's still there.

Are your patches cumulative like the ones for FFH2, or should I have loaded BOTH 'a' and 'b'?

Anyway, I see patch 'k' for FFH2 has been released and that it breaks saved games. Drat, I have a really fun game going with these Chislev guys and I hate to give it up.:(

i DID build the prophesy in my archos capital and none of the spiders got the prophesy mark promo, so no armageddon :p (which is a good thing ;))

OK, I downloaded and installed patch 'b.'

It didn't affect the Chislev button problem - it's still there.

Are your patches cumulative like the ones for FFH2, or should I have loaded BOTH 'a' and 'b'?

Anyway, I see patch 'k' for FFH2 has been released and that it breaks saved games. Drat, I have a really fun game going with these Chislev guys and I hate to give it up.:(

Hmm - patch B does contain the patch A changes. I'd try reinstalling the patch first, making sure that what you have includes the XML\Art\Civ4ArtDefines_Unit.xml - this is the one that I think must be missing if you can't see the buttons still. If the other files were absent, you'd be getting pink-buttons.

Be sure that you allow it to overwrite existing files when you unpack - if it doesn't ask you to allow it, the files aren't going to the right place for some reason.

As for the Patch k breaking save games - finish the game you're on, by the time it's done I should have updated to Patch k anyway :)

/already played some, awesome awesome job. Archos seem balanced too however spiders are weak except mother :) BUT
insane power recon line with harsupex that you can have in addition to eidolons.
Also, seem Archos are FoL only. They greatly benefit from FoL religion (capital size, Dark Wealds, Same tech line for religion heroes. ), while other religions being less preferable than FoL for them. This also cool from RP point of wiev, making them dark, wild preservers of nature, and original nature law - stronger survives.

Good stuff - seems they're working largely as intended. The spiders are largely a flavour addition, though they can be very useful at times, especially if you get an early giant-spider. The number you can feasibly get is closely linked to the size of the capital (as well as the spawn rate) so with a Size 20 Nest, you're looking at about 10 strong spiders, spawning quite quickly, before we count the bonuses for Dark Wealds and other cities.

Still - they are supposed to rely on the tribesmen first and foremost. The only boost I've really considered so far for the spiders is a Barnaxus type effect with Mother - the stronger she becomes, the stronger her offspring.

Fellowship of Leaves also sounds about right - it really does help them to grow the nest-size if they adopt Guardian of Nature. For a Neutral religion, Fellowship has always seemed to be favoured by the "good" side - this would be the dark side.

They also make fairly decent Veilites (huge nest possible with Sacrifice the Weak) and Order can also do them some good (Social Order and garrisoning to deal with unhappiness) though they're probably less appropriate. I've used Octopus Overlords quite successfully - again for the nest-size. Kilmorph and Empyrean seem to be of limited use to them however.

I'm going to move this to the player made content subforum. Nice work Vehem.

Do you need any unique building graphics done? I have some spare time at the moment.

I'm going to move this to the player made content subforum. Nice work Vehem.

Thanks

Do you need any unique building graphics done? I have some spare time at the moment.

Actually, I could really use some unique art for the Dural Statues - they're currently all represented by the Shrine of Sirona and it'd be really nice to give them a more flavourful look.

Basically, there are 7 statues in total, named for 7 "virtues" that the Dural hold in high regard.

Loyalty, Valor, Courage, Hope, Inspiration, Purity and Glory - roughly in that order of "importance" and in-game strength (Loyalty is an early one, Glory is the most potent).

Each is a work of art in its own right, but reflects the virtue that it represents and instills that in the people of its city. In game terms it may add a promotion [Loyalty, Valor, Courage, Purity - Magic Resist, Glory - Free Promotion] or boost some aspect of the city [Statue of Inspiration and Statue of Hope are permanent versions of the spell-buildings, with double normal effect]

With that in mind, I'm completely open to how they would look in-game and I'd really appreciate anything you can come up with. Hopefully the statues would be of use to other mods as well - I can see a lot of "reuse" value to them.

Well, I can do one of two things. First I could rip off some statues from Gods of Old and make them fit a theme or I could brainstorm some symbols and put them on pedestals. I like the second idea better, but I need to find a some representative pics to get me going. I'll let you know how it goes.

Well, I can do one of two things. First I could rip off some statues from Gods of Old and make them fit a theme or I could brainstorm some symbols and put them on pedestals. I like the second idea better, but I need to find a some representative pics to get me going. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks. I'd never actually looked at the "Gods of Old" mod in all the time I've had it (my playing since BtS has been pretty much Age of Ice, Final Frontier and then Shadow, with a brief flirtation with the normal epic-game). If I'd spotted those when I was making the statues, I would probably have nicked them straight off. I must admit I'm intrigued by your second idea too though.

I've also just had a trawl through the buildings I've added and the only other ones that I can see that could desperately use artwork are the Palaces. The Chislev one is the generic option, "Mother's Nest" is distinctly un-nestlike and the Dural are squatting in the Kuriotate palace for the moment. As most of the default civs have some really quite impressive palaces, it'd be nice to have something special for the "new guys".

To be honest though - if there's something in the mod that is reusing existing art and you think you can improve on it - I'll gladly use it.

Thanks. I'd never actually looked at the "Gods of Old" mod in all the time I've had it (my playing since BtS has been pretty much Age of Ice, Final Frontier and then Shadow, with a brief flirtation with the normal epic-game). If I'd spotted those when I was making the statues, I would probably have nicked them straight off. I must admit I'm intrigued by your second idea too though.

I'm currently looking at Tibetan symbolism as a potential choice. There are 8 of those and I can make 7 of them possible fit into your Virtues. Link here (http://www.usd.edu/smm/Tibet/TibetanAuspiciousSymbols.html) if you want to look at the page I'm checking.

I've also just had a trawl through the buildings I've added and the only other ones that I can see that could desperately use artwork are the Palaces. The Chislev one is the generic option, "Mother's Nest" is distinctly un-nestlike and the Dural are squatting in the Kuriotate palace for the moment. As most of the default civs have some really quite impressive palaces, it'd be nice to have something special for the "new guys".

To be honest though - if there's something in the mod that is reusing existing art and you think you can improve on it - I'll gladly use it.

Either post here some rough ideas for the palaces or send me a PM. I haven't played your modmod yet so don't have a feel for these new guys. ;)

I'm currently looking at Tibetan symbolism as a potential choice. There are 8 of those and I can make 7 of them possible fit into your Virtues. Link here (http://www.usd.edu/smm/Tibet/TibetanAuspiciousSymbols.html) if you want to look at the page I'm checking.


Look interesting and definitely more "artistic" than the Gods of Old statues.

Either post here some rough ideas for the palaces or send me a PM. I haven't played your modmod yet so don't have a feel for these new guys. ;)

Ah - k

Archos Palace - the Archos live on the surface and appear at first glance to be a typical barbarian (human) tribe, but the real "Power behind the throne" comes from below the village. The palace building is named "Mother's Nest" and houses the Haruspex and Mother's brood. The majority of it is underground, with possibly some ornamental/temple style decoration around it's entrance on the surface. I'd originally tried to adapt the "Hobbit holes" to make an entry-point to the caves, but couldn't really make it fit. The "symbolism" for the spider cult is reflected in their flag (can be seen here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169812&d=1203717757)) if that would help for the decoration.

Chislev - Generally based on Native Americans in appearance - more Sioux/Iroquois than Aztec/Inca. I've used the "Teepee" and "Wigwam" buildings from the repository for their other unique buildings, but the Palace is currently the generic one. Ideally it'd be a ring of tents around a campfire and small totems I think.

Dural - Monument builders. They like their buildings to be artistically impressive so the Palace would be no exception. The style of their current stand-in (Kuriotate Palace) suits them quite well, though possibly with the addition of statues/a fountain out the front to emphasize that aspect.

What do you want these statues made of? Rock, marble, some sort of metal? Pedestal the same, different?

What do you want these statues made of? Rock, marble, some sort of metal? Pedestal the same, different?

Marble/Bronze sounds about right - maybe marble pedestal and bronze symbols?

I've just updated for Patch K and bundled the existing patches (Chislev Buttons and Students) into the main download.

To update;

(1) Patch to FFH2030k (using Kael's patch).
(2) Redownload this mod using the link in the intro-posts and apply as before.

Note: I've used GIT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software)) to update this semi-automatically. I've done a brief check of it in-game and it all looks fine, but haven't tested everything as thoroughly as I normally do - I'm relying on GIT to do its job properly. If you notice anything amiss - let me know and I'll try to sort it out manually.

Wow, that was fast!:)

I'm downloading both patches now and will abandon the Chislev game.

I played just over 500 turns and was well ahead on pts. However, I got boxed in on all sides by expanding ai civs and, unless, I declare war (and there are plenty of defensive pacts), I will be stuck with five cities. Also, it is one of those strange games where the AC hasn't moved much - it is only at 6!

I enjoyed playing the Chislev, but, of course didn't get any heroes with Strength of Will far away and didn't quite make Feral Bond (I had FOL).

One thing I thought about...I was going to build the Mercurian Gate, but the color of the Chislev was the same as the Mercurians, I think. That might have been confusing, but I know there is a limit on civ colors.

I don't know what happened with your button patch. I loaded just like the original patch, and still had the button for every unit given as the Warrior button.

I'm not sure if I will try the Chislev again next game, or one of your other civs. Thanks again for making the mod even more interesting and fun!

One thing I thought about...I was going to build the Mercurian Gate, but the color of the Chislev was the same as the Mercurians, I think. That might have been confusing, but I know there is a limit on civ colors.


The Chislev are actually a pale-yellow and the Mercurians are nearly white - if you see the two borders adjacent you should be able to tell the difference quite easily (unless you've got low contrast/high brightness settings). Either way - their buttons are now part of the main download for 011, so you should definitely see them this time once you've patched up.

Let me know what you think of this texture. It's the Conch Shell which represents Valor.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Valor0000.JPG

It's obviously too big in this fscale and I need to throw a shadow on it before uploading it.

The Chislev are actually a pale-yellow and the Mercurians are nearly white - if you see the two borders adjacent you should be able to tell the difference quite easily (unless you've got low contrast/high brightness settings). Either way - their buttons are now part of the main download for 011, so you should definitely see them this time once you've patched up.

It probably has more to do with my inability to distinguish colors that are similar than the colors you have chosen for the civs.:) A bit of color blindness.

Anyway, I'm not sure what happened, but I downloaded and installed patch 'k' of FFH2 - no problem there. Then, I tried to download and install your patch, and... nothing.

Things are really screwed up now. I bought and installed The Complete Civilization IV package that includes Civ4, Warlords, and BtS - no need for any patches to those. However, they are installed in a created '2K' directory that really messes things up when I do my FFH2 patching and installing. Now it seems I have Mod and Assets folders allover the place. I even tried uninstalling .30 and starting again from scratch, but whenever I try to load your 011 patch, it always creates a new Assets folder no matter where I try to install (from the ZIP) even if there is already an Assets folder there.

I'll keep trying, but it is very frustrating trying to get these patch installations right now. :sad:

Sorry for the rant.

Just install it on your desktop, then copy everything from the Assets folder into the Assets folder of FfH, see if that works for you

That seemed to work. Thanks!:)

It is a pain to have to change the target directory each time for the patches, etc. as the 2K Games directory is added by the Complete Civ IV.

I should have set it up differently when I did the original installation.

Thanks again.

Just install it on your desktop, then copy everything from the Assets folder into the Assets folder of FfH, see if that works for you

Aye - that's normally the best way if things are looking messy.

Which "Zip-program" are you using? If it's just "Compressed Folders" (Windows' built in), I'd suggest getting something else. I tend to use WinRAR for everything (it does most archive-formats - ZIP, RAR, TAR, BZ2 etc) and the layout is actually really useful for things like looking at Patches - you can move around the directory structure *inside* the archive, then drag and drop the "Assets" folder where you want it.

Any chance you'd want to add a 4th civ to this add-on pack? Maybe a lizzie civ? :D

Any chance you'd want to add a 4th civ to this add-on pack? Maybe a lizzie civ? :D

Aye - once I've made sure these work ok, I'm planning on opening a thread to discuss what comes next.

The main keypoints;

Who are the civ? (background, motivations)
What do they look like? (unit art, building art - does it already exist or can it be made easily?)
How are they different to the others? (in terms of offering a unique play experience)

I'd probably implement another 3 races as one update at once (rule of 3 and all that - plus it's easier to work on several at once as you catch earlier mistakes as you work on the second/third race)

That's terrific. There's a thread about lizzies already in the main FfH area. As for art...they have a cityset in Dragonia II by winddelay and myself, they have units by winddelay, and I can make UBs as necessary.

That's terrific. There's a thread about lizzies already in the main FfH area. As for art...they have a cityset in Dragonia II by winddelay and myself,

Good stuff :)

When I get to it could you erm... *cough* show me what to do with the Citysets and L-System for them *cough* :mischief: . I originally looked at adding the tribal cityset for the Chislev but chickened out after looking at how LSystem worked.

If you're interested, you could salvage my Villalfar civ - I've all but given up on them due to my inferior knowledge of Python and also school.


Who are the civ? (background, motivations)
A nation of elves who are an offshoot of the Ljosalfar, who were separated from the bulk of their people during the Age of Ice. They survived by losing their civilisation and becoming wild (Villalfar means "wild elves") and ferociously defending the few forest areas that survived the Age of Ice. They befriended and developed strong bonds with the animals who were also trying to scrape a living off the snowbound forests, and after the Age of Ice they vowed that their purpose would be to defend nature, avoiding war at all costs to protect and nurture their forests.
What do they look like? (unit art, building art - does it already exist or can it be made easily?)
They can just use all the current elven models, or if anyone can be bothered, the current elven moddels with black and brown hair and more feral-looking clothing. Also, a city set that replaced the houses with trees would be appropriate for them.
How are they different to the others? (in terms of offering a unique play experience)
They rely heavily on animals for combat, since their normal units can only defend. As such, there are a lot of animal related elements - totems replace cages at the carnival, which (well, with the right Python) give boosts to all units of their type; they get a unique beastmaster who can summon animals; their scout UU is a panther; etc. They can only capture enemy cities using their beastmaster, as animal units can't capture cities.


Edit: I have a ton of .txt files with the XML I've used in them. So there's quite a bit of work done already and they were very much playable in the version I released, if a little underpowered. So all that's left is to implement a few new features - I also have a .txt file detailing those.

I would think the lizzies might be easier than other civs since I would set them to their own non-religion and make the lizzie set work as the other religious city sets work in FfH2 right now. I think the plan was for them to not form a religion.

Dragonia II right now uses specific city set art for races and not religions so that would be a good place to look for info. I'm not sure if they switch when a religion is founded ala FfH though which could be an issue here. The orc set there would be a nice addition for the Chislev if you were going to use Tribal beforehand.

Even though I've never done LSystem XML work I'm sure it can be done. Have no fear!

They rely heavily on animals for combat, since their normal units can only defend. As such, there are a lot of animal related elements - totems replace cages at the carnival, which (well, with the right Python) give boosts to all units of their type; they get a unique beastmaster who can summon animals; their scout UU is a panther; etc. They can only capture enemy cities using their beastmaster, as animal units can't capture cities.


It'd certainly be an interesting one to look at - though I'd probably temper the hard-restriction on "Defend Only" by reducing their base strength, allowing them to attack but giving them substantial defensive bonuses, especially in Forests/Jungles. It should maintain the flavour of play without restricting them quite so much.

At this stage I'm just playing with a few ideas in my head (and I've probably got at least more one version of the first three civs with a few "rebalance" changes in before I start on the next ones - Meskwaki's tech and the Statue hammer costs mostly) but this would be an option I'd look at.

Ideas for other Civilizations (which would probably need massive artwork developed sadly):

Takasic: A race which in appearance would be likened to a ringworm almost. Long, flat bodies, with 6 arms. Not 4 legs and 2 arms like a Centaur, but a full on 6 arms, and no conventional legs. Due to massively non-humanoid body structure they tend not to care "which end is up." This is due to the fact that they are a subterral race. Not subterranean, which implies caves, but a subterral, they actually live within the earth, much like an earthworm, who travels through the earth but does not leave a tunnel system in it's wake.

This race would be newly emergent into the world of Erebus having been developed in the ground far below the permafrost during the Age of Ice, and only just now has the land softened enough that they can make their way to the surface. Being as they have 6 hands (with 2 opposable digits, basically a thumb on each side of the hand), they are master craftsmen, surpassing even the dwarves in quality and durability of goods, and surpassing even the elves in beauty and form (due to hightened manual dexterity).

Mechanics wise I would suppose the following:
Do not build roads, but all units treat all tiles as if they had roads on them (not sure if you can easily force traderoutes to exist without roads though).
Suffer major penalties for crossing rivers, to include use of all movement points to do so.
No sailing/seafaring techs at all. Can never work sea tiles nor cross the water. This may of course cause major issues for gameplay, but is perfect flavor-wise. So maybe still allow them the most basic of cargo ships just so they can actually survive an island-heavy map.

Cledarn: A Floral Race, the Treants are to them what the Apes are to us. Due to photosynthesis requirements, they absorb light in a 360 degree field, due to sentience they can process this as information as well as food. Hence they have incredibly hightened senses.

While Fauna breed and reproduce in fairly linear fashion, Flora are not quite so limited:
They can send out shoots underground, a process much like growing an extra limb, which happens to be a couple cities away from the rest of you. If the underground connection is severed (willfully or otherwise) then so is the mental connection, thus resulting in a split which causes for the 1 entity to now be 2 entities, though each shares similar memories up until the point of the split, and will likely continue to grow in parallel as they still WERE the same person.
Reproduction can also be done through clippings, in which case once the clipping has developed sufficiently it does start as a completely new entity into the world, it must experience life from a blank slate and figure things out as a newborn, though it possesses the advantages of the physiology of what it was clipped from. The advantage to a clipping however is that it need not value the placement of its roots and solidify itself to a single location, but it is also better than seeding because it can be custom selected as the best portions of a once great, but now fading, elder Cledarn.
And of course there is the standard cycle of seeding, which will result in a very similar reproduction to that of Fauna.

Mechanics wise I suppose the following:
As most of the minds are connected, communication and exchange of ideas is vastly improved. Hence so is tehcnological development.
Cities cannot build much of anything. Units are spawned automatically every few turns and can be developed from a baseline set by the city.
Buildings are all created by settling a unit into the city (putting down roots), various promotions are required to be capable of creating various buildings, as well as the appropriate Technology. Each building can enable faster generation of new Cledarn, or a more Robust version when they are created
Units must upgrade from the baseline units that spawn, but can also downgrade into multiple units of a lower tier which will share current promotions, but start at 0 XP

Sar: An Avian race. The Sar value freedom and beauty above all else. As a race they are incredibly claustrophobic, needing to know that they have the freedom to soar away at any moment. Their wings are able to wrap around their torso when they are forced to be landbound, thus leaving them essentially with only 2 limbs at the time. Their claws are zygodactyl (2 forward, 2 backward) plus an additional pair of much larger claws extending from mid-calf. The hip joints are rotary joints and there are 4 double-bend joints (knees, but able to bend in either direction) along the legs, thus allowing them to utilize their legs effectively for manipulation of tools, but making them almost useless for mobility.

Mechanics I suppose:
All units have Flying promotion from the start.
Workers are absolutely horrible for workrate. Again I would say that roads ought not be needed for trade-routes to be established, as the Sar themselves wouldn't ever use them. But I suppose other races would still require them, so could be required still pretty easily (same goes for Takasic above)
Massive withdrawal chances on all units

Voviel: A 3 legged Aquatic Race. Each leg is bell-shaped when standing, but "unrolls" like a tongue when walking (slithering like a slug more aptly stated). Additionally there is a second set of "limbs" protruding from the armpit which control a flap of skin spanning from torso to fore-arm, primarily utilized for swimming.

The race is quad-gendered, XY chromosomal (Male) fertilize the eggs, YX chromosomals (Female) generate the eggs, while the YY chromosomals (Etir) bear the egg to conception, then the XX chromosomal (Masri) carry infants to maturity in a marsupial fashion. Due to the more involved gestation process birthrates are very slow, but family structures are incredibly tight-knit.

Mechanics I suppose
All units possess water-walking promotion and have vastly enhanced movement rates in the ocean
Cities suffer a penalty if not coastal or irrigated
Units cost more to produce, but all of them gain XP over time (stretching on this one, can't think of how to reflect the family structure)

Arashan
Feline race similar to Khajit from Elder Scrolls world (Morrorwind/ Oblivion)

Rest imagine by yourselves (after job too tired :) )

@Xienwolf - wow. Some really good races for world-building there and the societies/physiologies seem well thought out. I must admit, I hadn't really considered moving away from the existing Erebus races so drastically though it does hold a certain appeal. I'll have to think about that and as you said - the artwork would be a major factor, as would the Unit-types - I'm not sure Subterral or Avian races would necessarily have axemen, phalanxs, hunters, catapults etc.

That being said - they definitely meet the "being different" requirement :D

A little too different, imho.

Personally I'd rather stick to civs that are known to have been present in Erebus/Kael's campaigns to maintain the unity of the mod. I'm not limiting it to those that are in the game now, as I'm sure there were some other civs in the campaigns that could be included if we ignored the patron god/sphere theme. Some minor civs and multiple barbarian states could be good. Of course, if this were for scenarios it would be great to include extinct civs like the Aquatic Aifons, Thraxians, and the factions in the Patrian civil war, or new civs formed by the remnants of the current civs once Hyborem has brought the Age of Rebirth to an end.

Of course, since I'm unlikely to download this modmod anyway, feel free to include as many crazy civs as you want.

Looking forward to Spore, much? :)

Nah, it is actually some of the notes from a book I am working on. I am attempting to write something which is so completely removed from our own reality and understanding that it cannot possibly be called Anthropomorphic and analyzed by English Majors as a reflection upon society.

Of course, physiology is the smallest part of attempting to create something which is NOTHING like us and our world and experiences. So this isn't even really a decent glimmer at the entire work I have done so far (Heck, I don't even mention the fact that they all evolved simultaneously and speak in 3 seperate tones at once)

I've been playing the Archos a bunch, and I noticed a few things.

Chosen loose their poison strength when they upgrade, so could we at least have a Immortal UU since you have pretty awesome special art for it? Same for huntsmen-> assassin.

Chosen can't upgrade to Spartaioi (sp?) or Paladins.

Huntsman have 5 defensive strenght. Regular hunters only have 4.

Another approach to maintain the Poison strength when promoting is to create a promotion which grants it.

I've been playing the Archos a bunch, and I noticed a few things.
Chosen loose their poison strength when they upgrade, so could we at least have a Immortal UU since you have pretty awesome special art for it? Same for huntsmen-> assassin.


Good point regarding the Immortals. Adding a little poison damage and a few first strikes would seem to fit, given the way the model looks. Assassins should have 1 poison damage already if I recall correctly. I decided not to add any more to them as Assassins aren't really a strength of the Archos - they have them, but they're not really any better than anyone else's.


Chosen can't upgrade to Spartaioi (sp?) or Paladins.

Nope - and you can't build the Phalanx/Spartaoi with the Archos either. Their weapons are generally crude and they never really develop the sophistication that this unit represents. Paladins are buildable if you are of Good Alignment I believe, but Chosen cannot upgrade to them as someone so "blessed" by Mother would have a hard time gaining a Paladin's purity of body and spirit (just doesn't seem to fit that a Spider-mutant becomes a Paladin).


Huntsman have 5 defensive strenght. Regular hunters only have 4.

As intended. Quite a few Archos units have a slight defensive emphasis - helps to protect the nest.

i had an idea of an avian race before in another thread, what do you think?:

personally i would love to see a civ based around an Bird/humanoid race, lets call them 'Avians' for now.
(Im making all this up on the spot btw )
Avians should be a race of birdlike people who live in great eeires on the tops of mountains. they do not worship the gods and angels as the other races do, and neither do they worship the dragons. instead they worship the Earth itself, each individual piece of it, from every rock, to every tree, and every other living being. above all they worship the sun and acknowledge its gifts to the world.
they strive to develope an understanding of the natural bounds of the earth, and read the signs in nature, particulary those left upon the winds as they carry the knowlege and information from every corner of Erebus to the next, and this knowlege is eternal as wind will never cease to exist, it is a permanent record of the history of the world.
Avian are generally a peaceful race, living above the clouds they rarely meet any other inhabitants of Erebus except when they go down below the cloudscape to examine the world. however, if they are threatened they protect themselves as best they can. they would use their knowlege gained from their studies to persuade the winds of the world to do their bidding, to seek the suns aid, and to use the worlds spirit to defend themselves. they would call together flocks of warrior Avains, armed with javelins, spears, bows and lances, and charge any opponent as well as any blood lusted race.

so

Palace should provide Air, Sun, and Spirit mana.
all their units should have be able to do little recon runs like the hawk, but with shorter distances, they should specialise in long shafted weapons (lances, spears etc, and ranges weapons that can be used from the sky. all units should ignore wall defence bonuses (would a wall stop a bird?) but they should all get sever penalties vs enemy ranged units. they should get bonuses in research, but be agnostic (and instead of getting priests etc, they should get 'scryers' who scry the winds for knowlege and meaning. with divine spells for Air and sun spheres etc.) they could be able to build cities in peaks, but if they do, enemy units can also enter the peaks, and perhaps unable to build cities on flatlands (only on hills and peaks)

anyway, those are my ideas, i doubt they will ammount to anything , but there you have it

Aye - that's normally the best way if things are looking messy.

Which "Zip-program" are you using? If it's just "Compressed Folders" (Windows' built in), I'd suggest getting something else. I tend to use WinRAR for everything (it does most archive-formats - ZIP, RAR, TAR, BZ2 etc) and the layout is actually really useful for things like looking at Patches - you can move around the directory structure *inside* the archive, then drag and drop the "Assets" folder where you want it.

I use something called PeaZip which also handles WinRAR. It seems to work very well for me most of the time.

Lots of good ideas on other civs here - I like the Lizardman idea.

If you do the next one anything like the last three, we are all in for a real treat. :)

ive just been playing a game as the neutral team, and i think ive found my new favourite race. all i can say is OMG, uber recon AND uber mages!? i absolutely love the rock ravens, they are THE best thing for keeping barbarian hordes at bay, and then you cna just mop them up with a coupel of nicely leveled hunters. i have yet to use the world spell, but im waiting for another council of the warchief (currently only have 3).

Um, why don't Archos get any T4 archery? And by the way, vampires can upgrade to paladins, so apparently corruption isn't an issue.

Um, why don't Archos get any T4 archery? And by the way, vampires can upgrade to paladins, so apparently corruption isn't an issue.

The Archos should only be lacking the Arquebus and Marksmen from the Archery line - crossbows should still be available, as are the other archery units. Marksmen were removed for similar reasons to the Phalanx - it's a sophisticated approach to warfare that they don't embrace. The Doviello have the same restriction for a similar reason. The highest techs often don't really pay off for the Archos - they're better with overwhelming numbers of lower-tech units.

They sound like the kind of race that dominates in the early game but then begins to lose out later on. Seriously looking forward to playing this modmod.

They sound like the kind of race that dominates in the early game but then begins to lose out later on. Seriously looking forward to playing this modmod.

Depends on the way you play them. I mentioned the Doviello before and they have the same kind of "up and down" tech-strengths as the Archos do. For instance, the Doviello lack some of the top-end units, but their late game grants them the War Machine and that can do some serious damage.

The Archos have a similar power-peak a little earlier than that, when Mother is released, followed by the Haruspex to back up your armies (with both Nature and Chaos affinities, these can be very potent if you conquered well in the early game)

The main difficulty for the Archos is keeping up progress along the tech-line at a decent speed. Their play style encourages you to expand and conquer, but at the same time you need to keep your economy viable. The problem is compounded by a lack of libraries and alchemy labs.

The Archos should only be lacking the Arquebus and Marksmen from the Archery line - crossbows should still be available, as are the other archery units. Marksmen were removed for similar reasons to the Phalanx - it's a sophisticated approach to warfare that they don't embrace. The Doviello have the same restriction for a similar reason. The highest techs often don't really pay off for the Archos - they're better with overwhelming numbers of lower-tech units.

Wait, marksmen are are more sophisiticated than crossbows?

Idea for an Archos unique T4, since their down 3 (arbeques, marksmen, phalanx): Take a few of the guys with 2 pairs of extra limbs like the immortal graphic. Put longbow in each pair Add poison arrows. Stir. Hello collateral damage archery unit. Probably would be hell to do graphics for.

Maybe pull eidolons and paladins completely and give them some sort of spider-warrior to go with the Haruspex?
Oh, spiderkin need subdue beasts. Having this emphasis on insects and the like and then not having something that every beastmaster gets is wierd.

Vehem - the statues are done and found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6542748#post6542748).

Played around with the neutral race a bit; I like their style (I also got the luckiest start I think I've ever seen: 3 clams, a whale, a silk, and the Dragon Bones in my fat cross). However, I have one minor complaint about their unique buildings: Their unique versions of the Elder Council and Pagan Temple don't provide the specialists that the originals do. This might be intentional for balance, but I am really missing that early game Sage...

Vehem - the statues are done and found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6542748#post6542748).

They look great - thanks a lot :goodjob:

This might be intentional for balance, but I am really missing that early game Sage...

It was originally for balance aye, as they are supposed to have a slightly slower start to the game (counter balanced by the fact that they don't have to worry so much about maintenance later) - though I may be tempted to give the Elder council its other beaker back as reducing its beakers *and* stealing its Sage does seem a little mean.
==

As there will be a new patch up soon to include Woodelf's new buildings I'm going to make a few balance switches at the same time. Most of these have been mentioned in this thread already, but I'll list them here so anyone can comment on them.

Meskwaki - Tech Prereq moved to Arcane Lore. 2nd Tech Prereq at Warfare.
Strength of Will is an expensive tech (though with good reason) and no other Mage-hero is so far down the line (Hemah and Gibbon most notably come earlier). Warfare should be key-tech for the Chislev anyway, so it serves only to slow Meskwaki-rushing a little.

Archos Immortals - Made unique, combat strength partially poison damage, first strikes added for additional limbs.
Mostly a flavour change, but it does suit the Immortal model.

Dural Statues - costs rebalanced to better reflect their usefulness and level (Loyalty will probably be the cheapest, Glory the most expensive).
I agree with the comments that some of them will never really justify the hammer-cost. It'd be nice to have them all in-game occasionally - especially with the new buildings

Archos Spiderkin - Get their "Subdue Beasts" back.
To be honest, I'm not sure why they lost it in the first place. Over zealous editing on my part I think

Chislev Early Game - Ancient chants as a starting tech and the Tribal Council receives it's missing beaker. No sages for the moment though.
Had a few ideas in mind for how to slow them down, but the combination seems to have overdone it slightly. As Sarisin mentioned earlier - Ancient Chants is very appropriate, and also helps move toward the Tribal Council anyway.



If anyone else has found any major balance issues - let me know, and I'll see what can be done. If you disagree with any of the points above - same thing, let me know. The feedback so far has been pretty positive, but the comments making suggestions/asking questions have helped to refine it.

I'm hoping to only really have one more version (barring updates to the main mod) before I complete the other 3 races (Mazatl/Cualli - both lizardmen civs and the Villalsfar - Wild Elves).

perhaps the Dural could have another specail wonder that requires all seven statues of virtue with some big effect? this would mean that the dural civ will really want all the statues for the big thing. Perhaps a Hall of Virtues? enhances the effects of the seven virtue statues? or adds happyness to all cities in the continent and no unhappyness in the city in which it is built?

OK, Vehem, you did it again!:)

Honestly, after a few hundred turns playing the Dural, I thought, what a lousy civ. It doesn't fit my style at all. I like to found a lot of religions, build the special holy wonders, and send out the disciples, etc.

Well, I was pissed that I couldn't even build temples. Not even a Pagan Temple! I had Gems and Incense and I founded every religion but AV.

I even had problems spreading the religion I adopted - ROK. I had 3 cities. I got it in 2 as I got a free Thane (?). But, I couldn't figure out a way to spread the religion using the Students of Kilmorph.

In fact, the first Student of OO (Zealot equivalent, I guess) got the Enraged promotion and went barbarian the next turn. I still can't figure than one out as I didn't have Chaos mana.:confused:

I couldn't generate any Great Prophet pts and those GPs are mostly necessary to get those holy wonders. Also, you can forget about an Altar Victory with this civ! I did get quite a few Sages though - love the Adaptive trait which I used for Philosophical.

Anyway, I was doing OK and ahead, but, what a blah civ.

Then, around turn 400 (I play on Epic speed) the various statues started becoming available. These are one of the coolest features in FFH2 that I have seen! It really made my game interesting and, naturally, the Dural are doing a lot better now - I think I built 5 of the 7 so far. The units I am building with a free promotion, Loyalty, and Courage are great.

So, I'm glad I stayed with it as the Dural civ certainly doesn't disappoint.

Hopefully, no new patches that will break save games. I think I could run the table with this civ as the ai, including the hopeless Archos, are weak, but I want to play it out the full 991 turns and see what happens. AV has been founded and I would expect to see Hyborem soon. The counter is only around 25, though now. My next big decision might be whether or not to try and build the Mercurian gate and see how the Dural do with Basium as an ally.

Thanks for 2 great civs to play with...can't wait to try the Archos next game.:)

Hannah the Irin created Karllsson in my last game, didn't seem right...

Oh, and minor nitpick, when starting a Custom Game, the Chislev leader and Dural leader are in each other's place. What I mean is that the menu where you pick leaders has them sorted Good -> Neutral -> Evil but Absaroke appears in the Good section.

I even had problems spreading the religion I adopted - ROK. I had 3 cities. I got it in 2 as I got a free Thane (?). But, I couldn't figure out a way to spread the religion using the Students of Kilmorph.


Not sure what the problem is there - I've just tried it and each of the Students is able to spread in the same way as a Disciple/Thane/Acolyte etc. The "Spread Automatically" option also works. Can you try it again and let me know if there's a problem, preferably with a savegame?

In fact, the first Student of OO (Zealot equivalent, I guess) got the Enraged promotion and went barbarian the next turn. I still can't figure than one out as I didn't have Chaos mana.:confused:

They're crazed - studying the Overlords is not good for your sanity. The Crazed promotion is used on Lunatics and grants Enraged periodically. The Students of the Overlords have the same problem - though turning Barbarian straight away is just really unlucky - there's only something like a 3% chance. In anycase - if you want to spread Overlords - do it quickly, before the students go completely raving mad.

Hannah the Irin created Karllsson in my last game, didn't seem right...

Does seem a little off, aye :D I probably know what caused it though, and will fix it now.

EDIT: I take it back. It wasn't what I thought (suspected that I hadn't blocked the Lanun from creating UNITCLASS_KARRLSON, but I had) I've just tried to build him myself in-game and it does seem to be blocked properly from there. Do you have a save game that I can check out? Also, did you patch during the game at all - sometimes that can shift the internal numbering around a little such that Guybrush may have ended up being Karrlson as far as the game knows (though it normally breaks savegames these days).

Oh, and minor nitpick, when starting a Custom Game, the Chislev leader and Dural leader are in each other's place. What I mean is that the menu where you pick leaders has them sorted Good -> Neutral -> Evil but Absaroke appears in the Good section.

Must admit, I'd never noticed that was the ordering before. I'd seen that leaders of the same civ were together, but it didn't occur to me that it was alignment sorted.

I finally got a chance to play and must say I'm impressed Vehem with how much work you did. The custom dialogue alone is an undertaking.

I do have to stop playing with the No AI building option clicked since I got hammered by those spider/hunter things the Archos have way before I could build anything more than warriors. :)

I finally got a chance to play and must say I'm impressed Vehem with how much work you did. The custom dialogue alone is an undertaking.

I do have to stop playing with the No AI building option clicked since I got hammered by those spider/hunter things the Archos have way before I could build anything more than warriors. :)

People seem to be having a mixed time against the Archos - sometimes they seem to cause real problems, other times they fall over quite quickly. The Hunter thing is always fun - I had similar issues starting next to the Svaltafar once with No AI Building Requirements. The only real advantage the Huntsmen have over Hunters though is additonal defence strength. They're actually slightly worse than Hunters on the offensive as (a) part of their strength may be ignored by some units (though not sure who has Poison resistance these days) (b) They have -30% City Attack instead of -20% on normal hunters.

Good to see the Archos showing their teeth in anycase :D

They scare me!

new, original leaderhead art for Daracaat archos is in cooker officially, spicing it now, just bought Corel Painter X via card, waiting for delivery to finish
On Plan: 2nd, Harsupex Archos leader. (Spiritual, Ingenuinity)
Leaderheads for both Dural and Chislev (they are only portraits now , in difference from FfH full body illustrations.

Leaderheads for both Dural and Chislev (they are only portraits now , in difference from FfH full body illustrations.

Hmm - I quite like the Dural and Chislev ones at the moment, I'd probably have trouble picturing them a different way. I didn't grow as attached to Daracaat's leaderhead as I knew you were working on an alternative one.

The second Archos leader definitely sounds a good choice. I'd quite like to add an alternative leader to some of the new guys and a Haruspex would be perfect for the Archos.

At the moment I'm really struggling for the Lizardmen civs though. The current ideas are;

Dragonia Lizard Leader
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/mazatl.jpg

Shadowy-Priest Lizard
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/Cualli.jpg

The Cualli one (Shadowy-Priest) *really* needs a replacement or a rework quite desperately - mostly because of the way I edited it already to remove part of the image.

Please get some patience, and wait till you see my illustration ready.
I need some new program to finish (i payed few hundreds bucks for it in order to illustrate more professionally and alot)
I will do Archos 2 , and then chislev and dural. MAximum you can add other leaders or just replace in case you will like them more than ones you used.

The point is to make Fall Further Leaderheads somewhat like to FfH vanilla ones, i mean also technique and pic layout (not portrait, but full body picture with paints-like illustration)
I will stick to it, and if you like it - you wellcome.
Again you did great job implementing Archos ideas, much more cool than i supposed when we started to PM.
I have already some nice b/w sketches for archos leaders, as soon i have my PainterX at home and installed i will sit and finish them both.

If you like i can add some b/w planning brainstorm-concept-artworks for leaderheads for Lizzies, as i see it.

If you like i can add some b/w planning brainstorm-concept-artworks for leaderheads for Lizzies, as i see it.

I'd actually love to see those (and any of the other concept sketches) - I know you said you didn't really want to release the illustration part before it was ready - but I'd love to see the style etc so I know what to expect :)

i will give you later from home lizzies, but itso nly composition sketch, so not much aviable to see from painting techniques.

Daracaat is very very savage. Most savage from all FfH leaderheads.
Ursoaan-At (2nd , Harsupex archos leader , is very different , dark , mysterous, task-driven and spiritual.

rest is just dunno + i have some strange leader sketch (b/w) atm for race i dont know (its cool ,but really dont know where to apply him)

will send some b/w sketches to you via mail from home.

Whatever you did in the XMl with Daracaat is a big :thumbsup: He is a warmongering fool and I love it.

Did I miss where it said Chislev couldn't build libraries?

Did I miss where it said Chislev couldn't build libraries?

Who's got time to read? There's orcs to be killing... :)

Full list of building switches for the Chislev
<Buildings>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_ALCHEMY_LAB</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_MEDICINE_HUT</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_LIBRARY</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_INFIRMARY</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_PALACE_CHISLEV</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_ELDER_COUNCIL</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_TRIBAL_COUNCIL</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_PAGAN_TEMPLE</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_TRIBAL_SHRINE</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING1</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_TOTEM_OF_OLD_ENEMY</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING2</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_COUNCIL_OF_THE_WARCHIEF</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING3</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_COUNCIL_OF_THE_SHAMAN</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_FORBIDDEN_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
</Building>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_WINTER_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
</Building>
</Buildings>

I honestly really dislike both those lizzie leaders. :( i had a google and cant believe how few decent lizzie pics there actually are

Try Draconian instead of Lizardman. Wind up having to clip wings off most of them to use the image, but you get a lot more that are pretty nicely done (Probably thanks mainly to DragonLance fans)

I honestly really dislike both those lizzie leaders. :( i had a google and cant believe how few decent lizzie pics there actually are

Aye - I know what you mean, I really am going to have to find something better before I call it finished.

On the plus side, at least the units are looking ok :goodjob:

Thumbnail is of a Priest unit - in this case of "Agruonn" - the evil one. I've gone for a "Priest-leader" look for them rather than a "cloaked monk" type look. There are 3 of them in total (Agruonn, Omorr and Kelshekk), in a variation of colours/symbols. If I get chance, I'll add some additional decoration to them (skulls etc for Agruonn) to further differentiate them, but the colours work fine for identification and the model itself isn't too bad.

hows this for a Mazatle leader:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/draconian.jpg

just edit the wings away (but i think he looks great like that, maybe have some lore saying he is the result of a wyvern lizardman hybrid?)

and some others:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/lizzie_1.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/lizzie_leader.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/lizzie_leader2.jpg

Lizzie palaces?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/lizzie_palace.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/lizzie_palace2.jpg

Excellent finds there PsychicLlamas...

And here's the result (needs a few rough edges polishing off, but it's just about there)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/Mazatl_Leaderhead.jpg


And a quick "oil painting" filter later...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/CualliLeaderhead.jpg

Those lizzie palace pics are gold P_L. Thanks. I should be able to come close.

Not sure what the problem is there - I've just tried it and each of the Students is able to spread in the same way as a Disciple/Thane/Acolyte etc. The "Spread Automatically" option also works. Can you try it again and let me know if there's a problem, preferably with a savegame?

They're crazed - studying the Overlords is not good for your sanity. The Crazed promotion is used on Lunatics and grants Enraged periodically. The Students of the Overlords have the same problem - though turning Barbarian straight away is just really unlucky - there's only something like a 3% chance. In anycase - if you want to spread Overlords - do it quickly, before the students go completely raving mad.
.

I could have sworn the spread religion button was missing for the Students of Kilmorph...but, I see later it is there. ROK finally spread automatically some several hundred turns later. :(

I wonder if an instant Loyalty promotion (if they are built in the city that has the Statue that gives the promotion automatically), might not prevent them from going barbarian???

OK, I played another 200 turns to turn 600 and ran into a few problems that may be related to the Dural civ.

First, you cannot built priests, etc. so I cannot see how you can get Medic II. The Grigori at least have their Medic unit, but I don't see any like that for the Dural.

Second, I ran into a real problem with Disease. I was constantly at war with the Svartalfar who had AV and was churning out the Diseased Corpses. At least half my army was diseased in combat and I had no unit that could cure disease. Again, other civs have priest units that can get Cure Disease and you have the Grigori Medic. I think the Wonder Aqua Succellus helps, but you need Life mana for that. Maybe there should be a special unit for the Duval with Medic II and Cure Disease...unless I am missing something.

I ended up converting back to ROK (losing Valin) so I could build Arthendain to cure my troops and provide his medic skills. ;)

Third, I saw something about professors? I forget where, but it said you had to build colleges. I couldn't figure out either of these.

I'll probably get the hero for this civ tonight and see how that works.

Hyborem managed to spawn in the 4 tile space between my civ and the Bannor (I never understand how he spawns as there was tons of open space on the map, but he was stuck there). I killed him and his lot in one turn, but the damn hell terrain still formed next to a decent-sized lake so it appears impossible to get rid of - and he didn't even last a full turn on the map!

I forgot to mention that I did have 3-4 CTDs during the 200 turns I played.

They were suspiciously similar to the ones I was having with the Champion/Mace Man issue before.

I would get kicked out of FFH2, but when I reloaded my game it was OK for more turns when I would get it again. There was no way to post a save as the CTD didn't happen after any particular event.

Maybe there is a similar conflict with one or more of your new units???

Second, I ran into a real problem with Disease. I was constantly at war with the Svartalfar who had AV and was churning out the Diseased Corpses. At least half my army was diseased in combat and I had no unit that could cure disease. Again, other civs have priest units that can get Cure Disease and you have the Grigori Medic. I think the Wonder Aqua Succellus helps, but you need Life mana for that. Maybe there should be a special unit for the Duval with Medic II and Cure Disease...unless I am missing something.



Definitely a fair point - I'll add the "Cure Disease" effect to the Statue of Purity.

I wonder if an instant Loyalty promotion (if they are built in the city that has the Statue that gives the promotion automatically), might not prevent them from going barbarian???

It probably should, but I'm not sure that's the way Kael has it implemented at present. In anycase - if it did stop them going barbarian, it would do it by killing the unit first, which I don't think is what you had in mind.


Third, I saw something about professors? I forget where, but it said you had to build colleges. I couldn't figure out either of these.


Feudalism should allow you to build Colleges (+1 Free Specialist, +1 GPP (unbiased to any type of GP) )
Priesthood + a College should allow Professors to be built. These have Medic I and the ability to cast Hope and Inspiration.

For the redraw of the good leader I am thinking that you need to adjust the levels a bit on the actual lizard himself to match up with the background a bit better. Maybe darker on the armor to show some shadows being cast, and then bring the skintones down a tad less than the armor?


Love the Blue lizards that were added after I saw P_L's first post :) But the first one doesn't go quite full body (or feel right for a Leaderpic) and the second one is probably not going to look well when set to the right proportions :(

Moved slightly, shadowed, tidied up around the edges.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/RedrawnLeaderHead.jpg

Possible alternative Cualli? Seems more aggressive...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/Cualli2.jpg

They definitely have a distinct difference, which is good. I like them.

Just a quick question; how close are you to implemented the lizzies into your next add-on? I'd love to play them this weekend. :D

They definitely have a distinct difference, which is good. I like them.

Just a quick question; how close are you to implemented the lizzies into your next add-on? I'd love to play them this weekend. :D

That's not too likely :lol:

To be honest, the Cualli actually have almost all of the mechanics in place now, and both civs have artwork for a lot of units. I could almost call the Cualli playable and the Mazatl "playable, but rather dull" at the moment - but it's a mess of TXT_KEY's and placeholder art for the leaders.

I'm also away over the weekend but I think I should be able to get them sorted out over the next week. I may also break my earlier rule of "3 at a time" and release these as a "Lizardman Doublepack". I would still like to look at the Villasfar, but I haven't started on them at all yet and the lizards have received a fair bit more work than any of the original three thanks to all the suggestions.

Be kinda nice if something could be done about the giant shield behind the Cualli Leader, but a good cut overall as the other lizzie which are still in the pic seem to be quite minor compared to the leader. In the full picture he is just "One of the guys" so doesn't stand out nearly as much as all the other leaders thus far do.


Good job on shading the Mazatle leader, though now I find myself wishing that he was holding something in his other hand, or resting it on something. Just a giant jump in contrast right at the fingers, though it is artistically appropriate since the background is WAY back behind him and all.

The first is "as was", the second has had a filter applied, which makes it appear more like an oil painting (in theory). It does seem to pull the two images together slightly, though it does lose some of the detail - what do you reckon?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/RedrawnLeaderHead.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71205/OilLeaderHead.jpg

Dangit, I posted in the wrong thread. I'll upload it here as well I guess. I tried keeping him in his original background with some decent success. Haven't managed to do much with the new background or the Evil lizzie yet.

I definitely like the first one better on the latest. The face is losing too much detail in the second :(

170219

I began playing with the Durals and their workers build a mine in hills in like 2 turns... is that intended? That and some lush terrain gave me three fully developed city plots by turn 100, while my neighbours have not yet produced a settler...

Vehem I love the pic with the buildings in the background, would be great for the good ones.

Xienwolfs one could possibly be a Cualli leader with a darker background.

Are you planning just one leader for each? I assume so, its so difficult to find decent pics of lizzardmen. I still like my ghostly one, but its your modmod.

I don't think that the good leader looks right in the new background; the color of the armor is all wrong. I'm pretty sure that it only looked like that because it was reflecting the pinkish light of his surroundings. Not even pure copper armor would be that pink.

i like the first one most Vehem. but Magesteris right, can you change the armour to golden? the good lizies will have an affinity to gold afterall wont they? and for cuelli, i like both :) it depends whether you want their leader to be magical or a warrior.

EDIT: in case your wondering where i found those, the first one was doen by one of kaels favourite artists, who has already done many of the othe leaders and unit buttons. the 3rd and 4th one are from warhammer, the second from google.

I just realized you can also find some decent pics with the keyword of Gargoyle. Here are a couple that are somewhat possible with alteration, and some that are just dang cool (but don't work at all).

Could work as a Good Lizze, but is probably too humanoid (http://kerembeyit.deviantart.com/art/Jeil-Concept-Illustration-31530129)

Be Amazing as an Evil Lizzie, but probably not fitting the current picture for them (http://kerembeyit.deviantart.com/art/Aurion-Concept-Illustration-30537117)

Just damn cool (Evil Lizzie new Hero? C'mon, you know you wanna....) (http://kerembeyit.deviantart.com/art/Tijon-Concept-Illustration-55738951)

Would kinda work for Evil, but not so much so... (http://njoo.deviantart.com/art/Charon-57030676)

Doubt you could remove the wings properly. Probably too Cartoon anyway (http://njoo.deviantart.com/art/Gargoyle-33326515)

Nifty, but Black & White... :( (http://sargiel.deviantart.com/art/Gargoyle-33924054)

I've been playing a little while with the spider guys, and I have a couple of problems and questions. Everytime I go to select the option to build a chosen with any of my cities, I get a CTD. I do have a couple of chosens that I upgraded from lower units that aren't causing any problems.

Is there any way to block my units from getting weapons promotions? Because they are getting them and they end up being stronger than other units with the extra poison damage.

Finally, how does the game identify "living" units? I wanted to attack acheron and was gonna use a bunch of spiders to soften him up, but the courage spell doesn't work on them. It makes me sad.

I tried to post a save if you want to test the chosen CTD(this is my first attempt, sry if it does not work)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/122990/Arachnid_AD-0732_-_Copy.CivBeyondSwordSave

OK, I built Karlson, the Duval leader last night, and folks I think we have our first androgynous leader. :D No offense to the unit designer, but he looks like a refugee from 'N Sync or Backstreet Boys with a big weapon.

I have to say he was disappointing as national heroes go. He really is not much more than the Champions you can build when you get the same Iron Working tech. Yes, he does have the hero promotions and one extra movement pt, but this dude needs a superpower badly. How about something like Cure Disease or Medic II? Maybe those are not consistent with his character, but he needs something.

Compare him to other Tier III national heroes like Corlindale, Donal Lugh, Lola, and the very powerful Alkazan to name a few and he is very weak. Some sort of superpower would change that.

I think I know now what the problem is with the Students of Kilmorph, etc. When you create the unit, it does not have the button for spreading the religion. This is why I didn't think it would work. However, when I move the unit to a city, the button appears. I think with the Thanes of Kilmorph, etc. the button is there when the unit is created. Of course, your Students also have the ability to hurry production and I love that ... especially since Soldiers of Kilmorph are quickly obsoleted now.

I see in your comments you addressed the lack of Cure Disease for the Dural civ. Are you saying that EVERY unit produced in the city with that Statue would be able to cure disease? Maybe a bit much. What about Medic II? Are there any units I missed that could get that promotion?

Thanks for the explanation on the professors - I didn't get Feudalism yet.

I have to say he was disappointing as national heroes go. He really is not much more than the Champions you can build when you get the same Iron Working tech. Yes, he does have the hero promotions and one extra movement pt, but this dude needs a superpower badly. How about something like Cure Disease or Medic II? Maybe those are not consistent with his character, but he needs something.

i agree totaly

I've been playing a little while with the spider guys, and I have a couple of problems and questions. Everytime I go to select the option to build a chosen with any of my cities, I get a CTD. I do have a couple of chosens that I upgraded from lower units that aren't causing any problems.


Thanks for this one - it's the "most irritating bug in the world, ever" again. A misplaced comma.

If you want a quick fix for it straight away, head into Assets\XML\Art\Civ4ArtDefines_Unit.xml (notepad can open it fine)

<UnitArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_CHAMPION_ARCHOS</Type>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/units/Archos Chosen.dds</Button>
<fScale>0.49</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>1.0</fInterfaceScale>
<bActAsLand>0</bActAsLand>
<bActAsAir>0</bActAsAir>
<NIF>Art/Units/civs/archos/chosen/swordsman.nif</NIF>
<KFM>Art/Units/Charlemagne_HeavySwordsman/HeavySwordsman.kfm</KFM>
<ShadowDef>
<ShadowNIF>Art/Units/01_UnitShadows/UnitShadow.nif</ShadowNIF>
<ShadowAttachNode>BIP Pelvis</ShadowAttachNode>
<fShadowScale>1</fShadowScale>
</ShadowDef>
<fBattleDistance>0.35</fBattleDistance>
<fRangedDeathTime>0.31</fRangedDeathTime>
<bActAsRanged>0</bActAsRanged>
<TrainSound>AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_UNIT</TrainSound>
<AudioRunSounds>
<AudioRunTypeLoop/>
<AudioRunTypeEnd/>
</AudioRunSounds>
</UnitArtInfo>


That is the entry for the Chosen, and the comma at the start of <Button> should not be there - it's a leftover from how the Champion art was done.

Good catch and report on that one though - I've added it to the next version.


Is there any way to block my units from getting weapons promotions? Because they are getting them and they end up being stronger than other units with the extra poison damage.


They should only be able to get one Weapon promotion level less than usual - warriors/tribesmen on Bronze only, axemen/brute and champion/chosen are upto iron and only immortals gain Mithril.

It basically means that they're never too dependant on metal resources for their melee line, though Warriors are weaker overall, whilst Champions have a certain edge as Mithril tends to be rare anyway.

Vehem - here are the 3 palaces for this version. 1.1 fscale for each pic, but they need to be tinkered with.

Archos -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Archos0000.JPG

file (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Archos.zip)

Chislev -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Chislev0000.JPG

file (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Chislev.zip)

Dural -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Dural0000.JPG

file (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32561/Dural.zip)

winddelay did most of the work after I did the concepts so all credit goes to him. I didn't put them into the db, should I?

Ah, thank you very much Vehem and you're probably right about the weapons promotions being applied selectively, but from the descriptions of the units and such, I got the impression that they got no weapon upgrades.

Hi Vehem, I am impressed with all of the quality work you have put into this Modmod, but I have some comments.

As of yet, I have only played as the Archos, and, while the coolness and flavor factor of this Civ are off the charts, Daracaat is the weakest leader in the game, and Mother, while impressive, is the only Hero that also ties up a Civ's world spell. This, combined with their relative weakness vs. anything that isn't alive, gives the Archos a long-term hamstring that is difficult to recover from.

I would suggest either a new world spell (making Mother a Hero that is built like normal), or a Hero unit that is independent of Mother (I personally would prefer this more, the idea of a drider-like unit that bridges the gaps between spider and man, with a feature similar to Barnaxus' ability to empower golems, would really be awesome). I noticed that you are already considering another leader.

Again, great work, I look forward to what you do with the lizzies.

BTW, I don't think it can be done, but is there a way to prevent the Barb giant spiders from attacking the Archos? Seems wrong that I constantly lose Archos scouts to their brothers in the jungles.

Vehem - Do you have plans to do custom unit/building buttons? Maybe P_L will volunteer. ;)

Just browse the graphics section of CFC for a moment and you wind up with a folder of 1046 custom icons (and that is after I deleted everything obviously technological or modern, and some that I just never thought I would use, plus most of the ones I recognized as already being in FfH).

Vehem i did some stuff though its too raw to show it here, and i been busy lately, do you have skype?
i have brainstorm compositions (black sketch art for future painting and more detailed work)
(i just prefer to talk when i show you it, online, than posting and leaving some thing that is still unfinished , but already shows something)

Vehem - Do you have plans to do custom unit/building buttons? Maybe P_L will volunteer. ;)

At the moment I'm using screenshots for the button artwork (generally from the 'pedia). If anyone volunteers to do others, I'd be most grateful :)

==

Regarding the Archos, I played most of my multiplayer playtest games as them and didn't really find them to be particularly weak. The line of research they tend to follow is generally underused, but very potent and having Mother and Haruspex at the end of it is a nice combination. I am tempted as I said earlier in the thread to add the Barnaxus effect to Mother with regard to her spider-offspring (they gain Empower Levels equal to her Combat Levels).

The other thing I may be tempted to do is slightly increase the spider spawning rate in some way. For those that have played as Archos (or against them) - what do you reckon to the current rate at which the nest generates spiders?

when i last played Archos i always had at least 12-15 giant spiders. this was a bit of a pain becasue of the upkeep costs, but they were very helpful. i think the current spawn rate is fine. i also dont think they are weak in any respect. they have extremely good potential and if used properly can be a deadly force.

In my current game as the Duval, as luck would have it, I have the Archos on my Northern border.

They have declared war on me several times, and with only Tribesmen as defenders, would have been easy to wipe out. However, I decided to let them stay around and have a look at their ai skills. ;)

They eventually started spamming Brutes. I never saw many Baby Spiders, and they never crossed into my territory. I thought that was strange. If I sent one of the Stooges or a HN Nightwatch into Archos territory, they attack though.

Now, 700 turns in (Epic speed) they have adopted my ROK religion and have become somewhat of an ally against the 3 AV Evil civs on the map - Sheelba, Dain, and Faeryl Viconia. I have even gifted the Archos a few Rangers to assist as they only keep building Brutes.

No sign of their hero unit yet, and, as I said, it is turn 700+.

BTW, the Professor unit for the Duval is quite good. One nit noy thing though: the college says it gives 1 GP, but it doesn't say towards what. Sage? Bard?

Thanks again for adding a lot of fun to already great mod!:goodjob:

well i deicided to do that for now. :P
This is unfinished (need polishing, hands, colors, brightness), and still need some work being done with, leaderhead of Daracaat.
The only thing that is ready is top of his mace atm.
Savage one...
Please start flaming and stuff. I am ready :P

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170288&stc=1&d=1204441571
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170290&stc=1&d=1204452875

1st one, darker one, is original, but is very dark (inside cave look - how i drawed it for a mo)
Second one is using filter, with brighter colors... i dont like neon colors it make, but its better cause its brighter. Note, its unpolished , and i should work on colors and 3d shading and details. Consider those as starting sketch, rely on atmosphere and composition .

i cant click on either of those or the links, they dont appear to be working :(

very strange they working for me - well i rehosted images at outside site:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8228/daracaat2eh9.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daracaat2eh9.jpg)


http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1011/daracaat23ok3.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=daracaat23ok3.jpg)

BTW, the Professor unit for the Duval is quite good. One nit noy thing though: the college says it gives 1 GP, but it doesn't say towards what. Sage? Bard?


The GPP is unbiased - it doesn't influence the type (there are a few others that do similar in FfH, but don't think it happens in vanilla).

Basically, if you run just a Sage alongside having the College, you'll be 100% chance of Sage. If you run just an engineer + college, you'll be 100% chance of Engineer. If you don't generate any GPP at all other than the college, I believe you have an equal chance of any GP-type.

Vehem are you doing the villalfar as the third civ? TBH everything the villalfar are is already represented by the ljoslafar. Do we really need a third elf civ?

H-hey...!
It is not. :(

I don't have a problem adding a 3rd elf civ. :)

Plus if there eventually become more civs then we can bug Vehem to add them. :D

The difference between the Villalfar and the Ljosalfar is like the difference between the Bannor operating under the Order and the Kuriotates operating under the Order. The Villalfar are fanatics of the highest order, to the extent that they don't build cities (if someone makes a "tree" cityset, that is. :P)

A tree cityset is one thing, but then making all new graphics for every building is quite another. Unless you block all new buildings from showing graphically and ruining the cityset.

Buildings being there isn't really a problem, since they could just be built "in clearings", and they would look more like travellers' rests in the middle of the forest.

Could possibly make the trees really tall and with a wide canopy, then it would simply obscure any building put in them. Kinda boring solution though.

It's the same issue with underground dwelling civs. How to represent their cities? I think Vehem has enough on his plate atm. ;)

Is there a way to make this mod load up upon opening BTS? I changed the settings to do that with fall from heaven and other mods, but it won't work with this one. It doesn't recognize it and just loads up regular BTS or last time FFH 2.

Just use the shortcut provided with FfH, right click on it, go to properties, shortcuts, and change the target from "C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\Fall from Heaven 2 030 to "C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Civ4BeyondSword.exe" mod=\whatever the folder for this modmod is called

Updated to 012 - mostly to include Woodelf/Windelay's excellent building art for the new wonders and palaces. Also included are the balance changes discussed earlier in this thread and a fix for a potential CtD.

Version 012 - Artwork added and balance changes
1. Meskwaki - Tech Prereq moved to Arcane Lore. 2nd Tech Prereq at Warfare.
2. Archos Immortals - Made unique, combat strength partially poison damage, first strikes added for additional limbs.
3. Dural Statues - costs rebalanced to better reflect their usefulness and level.
4. Archos Spiderkin - Get their "Subdue Beasts" back.
5. Chislev Early Game - Ancient chants as a starting tech and the Tribal Council receives it's missing beaker.
6. Dural Statues - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
7. Archos, Dural and Chislev Palaces - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
8. Fixed CtD caused by building Archos Chosen.

very strange they working for me - well i rehosted images at outside site:

thanks they work now. the first one is very hard to see, but the second one looks ok as a rough sketch. i assume from what youve said you still have a lot planned for it. one thing, is that a club or a staff that he is holding?

Updated to 012 - mostly to include Woodelf/Windelay's excellent building art for the new wonders and palaces. Also included are the balance changes discussed earlier in this thread and a fix for a potential CtD.

Version 012 - Artwork added and balance changes
1. Meskwaki - Tech Prereq moved to Arcane Lore. 2nd Tech Prereq at Warfare.
2. Archos Immortals - Made unique, combat strength partially poison damage, first strikes added for additional limbs.
3. Dural Statues - costs rebalanced to better reflect their usefulness and level.
4. Archos Spiderkin - Get their "Subdue Beasts" back.
5. Chislev Early Game - Ancient chants as a starting tech and the Tribal Council receives it's missing beaker.
6. Dural Statues - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
7. Archos, Dural and Chislev Palaces - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
8. Fixed CtD caused by building Archos Chosen.

Thanks for the update, Vehem.

Well, I made it to turn 850 in my Dural game, and, unfortunately, I'm going to have to give it up.

I continue to get those CTDs, about every 7-8 turns, especially when I go back and re-load a game. Of course, when I am kicked out, then load the same game, all seems fine for some turns. It really reminds me of the same problem with the MaceMan/Champion code in FFH2

Also, the lack of any units (except Arthendain) who could Cure Disease made going out and taking combat to the enemy very frustrating. I did have Acqua Succellus, but it made no sense to keep sending units all the way back to be cured. Arthendain worked for one of my armies, but before long the other was completely diseased. I was fighting Svartalfar, Amurites, and the Clan who all had AV and plenty of Diseased Corpses. Those buggers were spreading disease I would say 75% of the time when I kill 'em.

It was a very interesting game, though, and, once the Cure Disease/Medic II gets improved and Karlson gets beefed up a bit, they will be one of my favorite civs.

I didn't make it that far, but it seems the Duval will not be able to have Inquisitors, High Priests or Luonnatars. Correct?

Hi Vehem and Co

Looks like a lot of thought and effort went into this and I'd love to try it, however had no luck downloading over past few days. Has anybody else had this problem and is file available elsewhere?

Cheers

thanks they work now. the first one is very hard to see, but the second one looks ok as a rough sketch. i assume from what youve said you still have a lot planned for it. one thing, is that a club or a staff that he is holding?

thnx, yeah there is still alot of job to be done,
also he holding club

grr doublepost

Hi Vehem and Co

Looks like a lot of thought and effort went into this and I'd love to try it, however had no luck downloading over past few days. Has anybody else had this problem and is file available elsewhere?

Cheers

Not sure if this file was affected by the database hack-job, but keep trying or wait for Vehem to re-upload. I did get the latest file yesterday, but Thunderfall had to used an archived database so stuff from yesterday might be gone.

Not sure if this file was affected by the database hack-job, but keep trying or wait for Vehem to re-upload. I did get the latest file yesterday, but Thunderfall had to used an archived database so stuff from yesterday might be gone.

Seems to be working ok now - though I did notice the server was having an issue or two last night.

The mod is actually hosted off-site anyway (slightly too big for the 10MB limit) and just linked to through the FileDB. If the normal link isn't working for you still, try the following one.

Direct Link to FFH directory (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/)
At the moment, you'd want FFH2030k-FF012.zip (http://grahamcox.co.uk/ffh/fallfurther/FFH2030k-FF012.zip).

(in case anyone browses the site itself, it belongs to my flat-mate - I've just borrowed a little bandwidth and his automated backups)

btw vehem i have same problem at home, not at job though
New links are not working for me at home as well

btw vehem i have same problem at home, not at job though
New links are not working for me at home as well

Going to have Graham check on the firewall logs - there shouldn't be a problem there but he did update something on Friday night.

Other than that, I'm really not sure - I can download it fine from here, if you're having trouble can you find your IP address (What's my IP (http://whatsmyip.org/)) and send me a PM with it, along with the time/timezone you tried to download from - I'll check the logs to see what's happening.

Going to have Graham check on the firewall logs - there shouldn't be a problem there but he did update something on Friday night.

Other than that, I'm really not sure - I can download it fine from here, if you're having trouble can you find your IP address (What's my IP (http://whatsmyip.org/)) and send me a PM with it, along with the time/timezone you tried to download from - I'll check the logs to see what's happening.

That might have sorted it - it seems that the "Invalid IP" table the firewall used had somehow gained IP ranges used by certain ISPs (notably Telestra and some others). It was flagging quite a few requests as being "MARTIAN" - i.e. coming from somewhere it shouldn't be.

The "MARTIAN" scanners are off for now - try downloading again.

All sorted

As I write this - file is downloading. Thanks Vehem

Must have been the Telstra thing

yeah, thnx working now, cause with previous version i needed to download it on my job and resend it via my mail :P
now thats fixed

Ok played this night it alot, great job balancing races . Thnx Vehem.
As i see Archos they are very powerfull with FoL.
1. Build huntsmans, convert to FoL.
2. animals always attack, with 1 more power you have much more great chances, get woodsman and combat promos.
3. Get subdue animal.
4. Get more and more animals.
5. Tech further, SE hardcore with guardian of Nature.
6. Recluses + spiders. Small spiders are meat (you want to lose them to get biigger ones - so pattern attackign wioth spider, and then kill with recluse, if your recluse odds less than 97% at start)
7. Bronze working is totally unneeded tech, though you can get it for brutes, but for me - recluses is a way.
8. Nodes : chaos & nature as much as possible. At least 2 of each + your starting 1 + 1. Start with 1 type till you have 3 of it (it will level your Harsupexs later to lvl 2 instantly), and then move to second type.
9. Obvious to say that for getting your capital to size 15 and above Guardian of Nature should be adopted as soon as possible + try to trade around all food resources from trading with other civs, in this case they are vital .
10. Get Nature Revolt. (Huh Archos are most preffered race to build it now, the benefit is huge - being barbarian you all back to back with barbarian state, and you have it visible, and acessible, gathering all animals to your side is very very easy job here, and after that all animals collected to your side, you can throw them on barbarian state and get rest of cities/units out) Go to friendly barb lands and get all his animals with your mega units. Get more XP as well
In plan:

11. Tech to Harsupexs, Mother + old lvl 8 recluses, upgraded to Harsupexs. With combat 5 all treants and pit beasts will get empower 5 promos. With huge affinities and all that old promos harsupex become just very very powerfull, hero like units.

Updated to 012 - mostly to include Woodelf/Windelay's excellent building art for the new wonders and palaces. Also included are the balance changes discussed earlier in this thread and a fix for a potential CtD.

Version 012 - Artwork added and balance changes
1. Meskwaki - Tech Prereq moved to Arcane Lore. 2nd Tech Prereq at Warfare.
2. Archos Immortals - Made unique, combat strength partially poison damage, first strikes added for additional limbs.
3. Dural Statues - costs rebalanced to better reflect their usefulness and level.
4. Archos Spiderkin - Get their "Subdue Beasts" back.
5. Chislev Early Game - Ancient chants as a starting tech and the Tribal Council receives it's missing beaker.
6. Dural Statues - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
7. Archos, Dural and Chislev Palaces - Building Artwork by Woodelf and Windelay
8. Fixed CtD caused by building Archos Chosen.

Where is this patch? Not in the first few posts.

Or, do we have to download the mod again and apply?

Also, does it break save games?

Thank you.

:yup: Not a patch, but a new d/l that overwrites what Vehem has done before.

Where is this patch? Not in the first few posts.

Or, do we have to download the mod again and apply?

Also, does it break save games?

Thank you.

Version 012 is the new one - it was a sufficient change that I decided it warranted a new revision number. I tend to only use patches for very minor updates.

On the plus side - the whole mod is actually 6Mb smaller than the current FfH patch, so it's not a huge ordeal :)

I believe that the addition of the Archos Immortals as unique units will be enough to break save games, or at the very least cause some odd behaviour. The other changes would probably have been ok.

Just to get everyone re-energized...Vehem has done a magnificent job incorporating the 2 lizzie civs into this mod. They are a joy to play and a PITA to play against. :goodjob:

Sorry to say the CTDs I mentioned twice previously in this thread continue. Now I am playing as Mahala, but the Archos and Duval are in the game as AI civs.

I had a similar problem with the Champion/MaceMan code that was messed up in FFH2. When that was fixed, no CTDs, but they seem to have returned in the late-game since I installed your mod.

Again, I get the crash, reload my last saved game (I save every turn) and it loads. I can play for awhile until another CTD.

I hate to ask, but what is the best way to uninstall your mod now that I have used your Assets folder to overlay the Assets in FFH2? Should I delete and reinstall FFH2, media pack and patch k?

Thank you.

Yes, to uninstall you must delete and re-install FfH.

I would reccomend you instead rename the folder so that Fall Further is a seperate Mod. Just in case you find a solution and wish to still play.

Sorry to say the CTDs I mentioned twice previously in this thread continue. Now I am playing as Mahala, but the Archos and Duval are in the game as AI civs.

I had a similar problem with the Champion/MaceMan code that was messed up in FFH2. When that was fixed, no CTDs, but they seem to have returned in the late-game since I installed your mod.

Again, I get the crash, reload my last saved game (I save every turn) and it loads. I can play for awhile until another CTD.

I hate to ask, but what is the best way to uninstall your mod now that I have used your Assets folder to overlay the Assets in FFH2? Should I delete and reinstall FFH2, media pack and patch k?

Thank you.

Did you get the 012 update installed in the end? One of the things that dealt with was a potential CtD to do with the Archos Chosen (which was similar to the Champion/Maceman issue I believe).

If there's anyone else having a similar issue, can you please try a custom-game with just 1 of the new Civilizations (and the others selected from the old set), preferably the Archos and the Dural and see if the problem occurs again. Also, I could use any feedback regarding games using Fall Further that do not include any of the new civs - I'd like to track this one down but it's not easily reproducible as it is resolved after reloading an auto-save.

I've uploaded the public-release for the Mazatl and Cualli (Lizardman civs) as version 020. It's linked to from the intro posts in the usual place, or directly here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8500).

:goodjob: I'm eagerly looking forward to gettng home from work to try out these lizzies. I have really enjoyed the Dural so far but haven't had a chance to try the Archos or Chiselev. Thanks for all the work you have put in so far!

And in time honoured tradition, I need to patch my mod within the first 12 hours :mischief:

Minor fix, but the Bannor were able to get the Lizard-only tech "Swampdwelling" - legacy code from when I first wrote the swamp/wetland mechanic. Never noticed it during testing as we were all looking at the lizards. Only a single file in the Patch, but I've left the directory structure intact so you just need to drop the Assets folder over FFH's as normal.

Has it been 12 hours? :p

just a little review of a couple of things i think need fixing:

The Mazatl world spell is a real anti climax. what exactly does the cult of the wyvern do? does it only build that wonder? if so why dont you just make that wonder buildable as normal for the mazatl and give them something more impressive as a world spell.

i think if the worldspell created a 'great egg' equipment in every city with a wyvern temple (forge tthe exact name), which, when the wyvern was destroyed would turn back into him after a few turns of 'incubation'. this effectively gives their hero a limited number of multiple lives and follows the fluff that the mazatl worship this wyvern something chronic.

another little niggle is that the cualli cant adjust their swampland/wetland sperad with thier laborers. and so i ended up haveing several resources that i could not utilise as the swampland spread to them before i could improve them. so i was forced to research sun mana to fix that (to remove the swampland), which goes against their play style imoh.

another little niggle is that the cualli cant adjust their swampland/wetland sperad with thier laborers. and so i ended up haveing several resources that i could not utilise as the swampland spread to them before i could improve them. so i was forced to research sun mana to fix that (to remove the swampland), which goes against their play style imoh.

Vehem - did you forget to put that fix into this release?

Vehem - did you forget to put that fix into this release?

Nope - it's there are seems to work fine. It wasn't there on the first release that Psychic_Llamas was sent though - have you redownloaded since the actual release P_L?

The Mazatl worldspell basically builds a wonder that provides a free Temple of the Wyvern in every city - each one adds +5% to the length of your golden ages. It also continues to add these to new cities that are built. The Order (EDIT: of the Wyvern) itself provides an additional 10% to the golden age length - so you can get some very impressive lengths once the spell is cast.

The Order gives a 10% bonus to Golden Age length? In your mod-mod, or in the main game too? Or am I just lost and you don't mean the religion "The Order"?

The Order gives a 10% bonus to Golden Age length? In your mod-mod, or in the main game too? Or am I just lost and you don't mean the religion "The Order"?

Sorry - "The Order of the Wyvern" (wonder) gives an increase to GA length. I keep doing that :D It also drops the Armageddon counter a little when its built (as well as the fact that the Wyvern-guard all have their "Mark of the Warden" - basically an "anti-prophecy mark")

some styuff about archos,
its 10 players immortal raging , barb world OCC.
I have 1 city, immortal.
Awesome
Tip: always build nature revolt with archos:
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6434/civ4screenshot0041ml6.jpg
i think i have strongest army in world, the current one is just 1/5 i think. All bears 7 str, Spiders : 8.
Still got not mother, on my way, want to get 2 chaos nodes.
Ethne losing city after city, i see religion or conquest victory at end.

Did you get the 012 update installed in the end? One of the things that dealt with was a potential CtD to do with the Archos Chosen (which was similar to the Champion/Maceman issue I believe).

If there's anyone else having a similar issue, can you please try a custom-game with just 1 of the new Civilizations (and the others selected from the old set), preferably the Archos and the Dural and see if the problem occurs again. Also, I could use any feedback regarding games using Fall Further that do not include any of the new civs - I'd like to track this one down but it's not easily reproducible as it is resolved after reloading an auto-save.

No, I didn't. You mentioned that it would break saved games. I didn't finish my Chislev game because of the FFH2 patch that broke saved games. I didn't finish my Dural game because of the problem with Disease and no units that could cure it.

Then, I started a game with Mahala (and 2 of your civs in the game selected randomly). I saw your 012, but didn't want to break the saved games. Then, I saw that there were two more civs out. Wow, my head is spinning. :)

Anyway, as I said, the CTDs don't come until I am well into my game - the first 500 or so turns at Epic are fine. But, when they start, they come every 10-12 turns or so. As you said, they cannot be saved and submitted as the re-loads seem fine for a few more turns.

So, now, what do I do?

I can't load 012 or it will break my saved games. But, I am having so many CTDs now anyway, I guess it is time to give up again. :(

Or, should I just go ahead and download 020 and try that. It includes the fix from 012, right?

Nope - it's there are seems to work fine. It wasn't there on the first release that Psychic_Llamas was sent though - have you redownloaded since the actual release P_L?

Ive redownloaded but havent played as Cualli in it yet :p

The Mazatl worldspell basically builds a wonder that provides a free Temple of the Wyvern in every city - each one adds +5% to the length of your golden ages. It also continues to add these to new cities that are built. The Order (EDIT: of the Wyvern) itself provides an additional 10% to the golden age length - so you can get some very impressive lengths once the spell is cast.

ah well in that case that world spell is now one of my favourites. i just didnt know what the whole effect was :p perhaps you should specify that in the spell description?

Tip: always build nature revolt with archos:

I found that out too. once archos get natures revolt theyre virtually unstopable. :D:D

in most of the games ive played the ai chislev are extreme expansionists and have huge empires. they are also very agressive, i think it fits extremely well but i think the multiple free forbidden city effect is a tad over powered. perhaps add some negative gold for tribal councils to counteract this?

Yeah chislev is huge in my game too

No, I didn't. You mentioned that it would break saved games. I didn't finish my Chislev game because of the FFH2 patch that broke saved games. I didn't finish my Dural game because of the problem with Disease and no units that could cure it.

Then, I started a game with Mahala (and 2 of your civs in the game selected randomly). I saw your 012, but didn't want to break the saved games. Then, I saw that there were two more civs out. Wow, my head is spinning. :)

Anyway, as I said, the CTDs don't come until I am well into my game - the first 500 or so turns at Epic are fine. But, when they start, they come every 10-12 turns or so. As you said, they cannot be saved and submitted as the re-loads seem fine for a few more turns.

So, now, what do I do?

I can't load 012 or it will break my saved games. But, I am having so many CTDs now anyway, I guess it is time to give up again. :(

Or, should I just go ahead and download 020 and try that. It includes the fix from 012, right?

If you want to make the fix to 011 yourself, you can do the following;

Go to <FALLFURTHERDIRECTORY>\Assets\XML\Art
Open Civ4ArtDefinesUnit.xml (notepad can do it, or any other text editor)
Use the search option to find "ART_DEF_UNIT_CHOSEN_ARCHOS"
In the "<Button>" line immediately afterwards, there is a line of text "<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/units/Archos Chosen.dds</Button>" At the start of the filename there is a comma that shouldn't be there. Delete the comma and save.


The top of the Chosen entry should look like <Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_CHAMPION_ARCHOS</Type>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/units/Archos Chosen.dds</Button>
<fScale>0.49</fScale>
when you're done.

==

That should deal with the Archos specific issue and won't break save games. Other than that, I'd recommend using 020 as soon as you've finished with the current games. There's quite a bit of new stuff/rebalancing in it, as well as the earlier fixes.

I just copied my FF folder and installed v 2.0 to save my current archos game in 1.2

1st of all , Vehem - you did awesome job, the lizzies are great, keep on doing things how you do and what you do.

2. i found bug. it somewhat critical. Meskiwaki (Chislev hero) aviable to build for all races. I see him aviable to build with Mazatl.

3. Inquisitors for Lizzies need new model :P They are still human-looking-red-robe-wearing guys.

Played my first game as the Cualli, (the release version)

Good Points

1. Loved the trails
2. Loved the priest units.
3. Loved basically everything except...

1. I think roads in captured cities should automatically become trails, the Cualli aren't going to be maintaining them as roads, so they'd get all overgrown and trail-like

2. Not sure I like the priests of (forget the name) relying on gems, too much overlap with RoK there and no flavour reason that I can think of.

3. Don't really like the LH, didn't look very good quality - I prefered the one of the draconian with its wings editted off (if it had a darker background)

4. Dislike the cavalry units. I think the Cualli are pretty strong as it is without getting free (dont require horses) cav. units, and the units themselves looked quite poor quality (no offense whoever made them). Also, I can't really imagine all those dinosaurs roaming around erebus - I really, honestly think it would be better, more balanced, and more flavoursome if the lizzie civs cav. units were riding horses.

5. Whenever I met a new civ they all said something along the lines of ''greetings kolsehvan would you rather be my friend or foe'', which I assume is the Cualli's diplo speech.

played a game with the mazatl, and the change of flavour was great (rainforest maptype is simply made for them, like arborea for the elves). Some things seem out of place though:

1. they've got unique religious buildings, yet the leader is agnostic, which means you have to wait for an other player to found the religion and spread it to you. Starting with religion instead of nationhood all adds up to this. My suggestion: lose the agnostic

my bad, just realised the religious building - pantheon link, not requiring any religions.

2. they get double movement through jungles, but not through deep jungles.

3. I'd add forests turning into jungles when standing on wetlands (not sure if already happening), and increasing the spread of wetlands under forests within cultural borders. The lizards should actively encourage forests to turn swamp (more food!), but i'm hardly seeing it.

4. a fully developed swamp-deep forest tile is insane, with an even higher yield than an elven ancient forest + cottage. I'd lose 1 food somewhere along the way

I'll play around with them some more, and will let you know what i find :)

More about Cualli - i think all that terrain vitalising and changing to wetland is bit... too much, just very fast and free vitalising.... May be still plains should not convert to wetlands, and grassland > wetlands conversion should be bit slower?
With all that food i can just cut out my pop and build very very fast. With no weak points and insanely strong disciples.
May be disallow to their metal units to use bronze/iron/mithril and instead of it make Sacrificial/ Blood Gem Gems made weapons promo (+2 with gems for swordsman) (like priests use)

1. I think roads in captured cities should automatically become trails, the Cualli aren't going to be maintaining them as roads, so they'd get all overgrown and trail-like

2. Not sure I like the priests of (forget the name) relying on gems, too much overlap with RoK there and no flavour reason that I can think of.


i actually disagree with those ^
converting roads will be too much, road still road, and it should pass alot alot of time that road overgrown and become trail. , it will be also odd if when other civ gets city back at next turn....

about gems - actually ok. Alot of sacrificial weapons was made of... glass, semi-precisious stuff, so gems are actually fit here very well. Blood sacrifices, Aurgunnon and magic power from precisious gems to get soul and transfer it to Aurgunnon via sacrifice at most precise way.

First off some responses:

1. I think roads in captured cities should automatically become trails, the Cualli aren't going to be maintaining them as roads, so they'd get all overgrown and trail-like

2. Not sure I like the priests of (forget the name) relying on gems, too much overlap with RoK there and no flavour reason that I can think of.

3. Don't really like the LH, didn't look very good quality - I prefered the one of the draconian with its wings editted off (if it had a darker background)

4. Dislike the cavalry units. I think the Cualli are pretty strong as it is without getting free (dont require horses) cav. units, and the units themselves looked quite poor quality (no offense whoever made them). Also, I can't really imagine all those dinosaurs roaming around erebus - I really, honestly think it would be better, more balanced, and more flavoursome if the lizzie civs cav. units were riding horses.

1. i agree with this.

2. i disagree. Slyvann is right that i think it represents obsidian and other presious stones. plus if you look at their sword its inscribed in red letters (i assumed rubys for some reason) so it makes sense to me.

3. the draconian one without wings is already used for the Mazatle leader, just with recolouring and a new back ground (compare the 2).

4. the cavalry still require horses. i couldnt build them without horses. and they look fine and fit the theme fine. i like them.

i found bug. it somewhat critical. Meskiwaki (Chislev hero) aviable to build for all races. I see him aviable to build with Mazatl.

i was alao able to build him as cualli.

More about Cualli - i think all that terrain vitalising and changing to wetland is bit... too much, just very fast and free vitalising.... May be still plains should not convert to wetlands, and grassland > wetlands conversion should be bit slower?
With all that food i can just cut out my pop and build very very fast. With no weak points and insanely strong disciples.
May be disallow to their metal units to use bronze/iron/mithril and instead of it make Sacrificial/ Blood Gem Gems made weapons promo (+2 with gems for swordsman) (like priests use)

the teraforming and the slavery fit perfectly with cualli. the high food from swamps gives them losts of pop, and then the blood and sacrifices civic allows them to cull the pop. i never had a city over pop 7 in my game (except my capital) because i had to maintain happyness, and sacrificing pop was the only way i could. plus it helped with building production nicely.
i didnt find this overpowered as in my last game i was sitting on average points with both absaroke and keelyn way ahead of me in points, and fearyl not far behind.

1. they've got unique religious buildings, yet the leader is agnostic, which means you have to wait for an other player to found the religion and spread it to you. Starting with religion instead of nationhood all adds up to this. My suggestion: lose the agnostic

2. they get double movement through jungles, but not through deep jungles.

1. when the civilopedia entries are put in it will all make sense to you :). plus you dont need to found the religions for their 2 unique temples, you can build them both straight off the bat

2. i found that they actually get double movement over all jungle and wetlands terrain. i may be wrong though...


---------

Now my other observations:

1. Cualli and mazatle are never hit hard by blight. they are probably the safest civs from blight in the game, more so than Sheime (cant spell it). why? because the swamp benefits dont get removed like other food improvments. other civs lose their farms, but the swamps act exactly like farms anyway, thus no (or very minimal) food loss. im not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing, just thought id point it out :)

2. the Cualli world spell does not grant free civilian specialists to captured cities. i captured a couple of barb cities after i cast it and they didnt get the benefit, but my new settled cities did.

3. i was never able to give my priests more than 'empower 1' using the troop sacrificing mechanic. how do you get higher levels of empowerment?

4. over all the cualli are a very enjoyable civ to play, and i think they can be very deadly if given the chance and if they are played well.

How about roads disappear or turn into trail once jungle/marsh overgrow them? Can this be done in python?

one other thing i notcied is that the lizzies are really crippled by the spread of hell, a little more so than others. though i think this balances out their resitance to blight rather nicely.

How about roads disappear or turn into trail once jungle/marsh overgrow them? Can this be done in python?

that would be nice if it is possible :)

Played my first game as the Cualli, (the release version)
1. I think roads in captured cities should automatically become trails, the Cualli aren't going to be maintaining them as roads, so they'd get all overgrown and trail-like


Do able, I'd probably do it when jungle spreads to the tile.


2. Not sure I like the priests of (forget the name) relying on gems, too much overlap with RoK there and no flavour reason that I can think of.


Mostly the "sacrificial, ornamental weapon/armour" side of things as mentioned by the others - plus it needed a resource requirement for balance reasons I think, and Incense didn't seem to fit. Gold was another option.


3. Don't really like the LH, didn't look very good quality - I prefered the one of the draconian with its wings editted off (if it had a darker background)


The Mazatl got that one...


4. Dislike the cavalry units. I think the Cualli are pretty strong as it is without getting free (dont require horses) cav. units, and the units themselves looked quite poor quality (no offense whoever made them). Also, I can't really imagine all those dinosaurs roaming around erebus - I really, honestly think it would be better, more balanced, and more flavoursome if the lizzie civs cav. units were riding horses.


They do require horses - they're only an artstyle change (there's nothing "unique" about them other than the way they look). I quite like the look of the giant lizards - though I can see where you're coming from. Might be something that just "needs getting used to".


5. Whenever I met a new civ they all said something along the lines of ''greetings kolsehvan would you rather be my friend or foe'', which I assume is the Cualli's diplo speech.

Hmm - the way I changed things for the sake of later expansion is to allow a "Default" greeting if no others are found (rather than blank text). It seems to choose either the normal diplo-text or the default at random. I'll check into that one again though - it was one of the last things I did.

2. the Cualli world spell does not grant free civilian specialists to captured cities. i captured a couple of barb cities after i cast it and they didnt get the benefit, but my new settled cities did.

Hmm - shouldn't grant them to any city created/captured after it's initially cast. The timing is important for that reason. Are you sure they were added to newly settled cities?

Heroes for Wrong Races
I'll have a look at that one too - thanks.

Hmmm... Well even if they do require horses still, I just can't imagine those blantantly WH dinosaurs roaming erebus. Anyway, I started a new small pangaea map as the Archos with all the Fall Further civs in. So far I'm absolutely loving the Archos, which is strange because TBH I wasn't too impressed with the idea when i first read about it. I'm having ''the wrong diplo'' thing with them too. Whenever I talk to another civ they always have the same greeting for me.

Again, great work has gone into this ModMod. Where do you people find the time? It continuously amazes me that you folks can do so much so quickly.

A note about the Cualli: As they will probably keep their unique labor civic, and they are unlikely to be part of the Undercouncil until late in the game due to their Agnostic trait, they have no means of generating slaves, though this a large part of their culture. I would suggest having an ability similar to the Taskmaster on one or more of their units, to keep with the theme.

Another idea: Shouldn't the Clan (and Barb) Lizard man units be slightly revamped and given the Lizard Kin promotion in this ModMod? It would seem more appropriate to me than just leaving them as is.

One last thought: The Agnostic trait limits the access to Hero units of the tribes that have it (All religions offer atleast one, most two). The Grigori are supplimented for this by the Adventurers, but both of the Lizzies still have only one late game hero at their disposal. I would suggest considering giving each an early to mid-game Hero to help balance this out.

Yeah, also, why do the Cualli have a unique tech? They get labour civics free and there are better civics for them in that group. I think B+S could do with something extra, or possibly be moved into ''compasion''?

Another note on Archos AI behaviour - he is extremelly agressive and make annoying sudden attacks , even if you have +3 with him, he comes to you over all map with load of brutes, declare war when you were friends, and kills you. Just lost my immortal game as Cualli , dam Daracaat :P :( :sniff:

I agree that the lizzies need an early weaker Hero as well.

Another note on Archos AI behaviour - he is extremelly agressive and make annoying sudden attacks , even if you have +3 with him, he comes to you over all map with load of brutes, declare war when you were friends, and kills you. Just lost my immortal game as Cualli , dam Daracaat :P :( :sniff:

I love that. :evil:

Catch is if you add another Hero deciding which one needs to die for the Shrine of the Champion or can be Ressurected. Only 1 slot to enter someone in on both of those cases.

Decisions are good. Mine normally die anyhow. :)

Seems like an easy choice to me, as the current Heroes were the intended champions of the tribes, they would get the Shrine and Res slots.

Well, in the case of the Meswaki (whichever one had a sub-par hero because they really don't exalt the single individual), they probably shouldn't even be able to build the Shrine of the Champion.

I've played games now with both lizzie civs and the Archos, and I get periodic CTD's with both lizzie civs, but not with the Archos (yet). It seems to start up right about the time I get to have my first priest units, and then the game starts crashing either when I create them, or after I hit the change turn button.

Anyone else experiencing this? I have a savegame from my first Cualli game where this happens, I can load it up and hit the change turn button, and I get a CTD everytime, even though I have New Random Seed checked.:(

I've just had a CtD in my Archos game, no idea what caused it. It was ~turn 200.

Another stuff i found - Jungle spread on mountains, and then swamplands being created. This give to Mountains very veyr odd look, - mountain with jungle with flat swampland on peak of it.

I've also experienced CTD's on map-start. I selected the Luchuirp to play, and no sooner does the map load, but I CTD. I'm really thinking this might be a combination of one or more of the new Civs and the Random Seed generator.

It also seems like the new civs are weighted more heavily for AI selection. I haven't played a game yet without at least three popping up on a Large map.

Yeah, also, why do the Cualli have a unique tech? They get labour civics free and there are better civics for them in that group. I think B+S could do with something extra, or possibly be moved into ''compasion''?

Its main advantage is allowing Slavery from the very start - which gives them a very nice early boost (especially if they develop a good food-base from swamps etc). Switching to a "higher" civic later is pretty much assumed (and is why there is no upkeep for the Blood and Sacrifice - it's an early civic that helps encourage early building/expansion).

Another stuff i found - Jungle spread on mountains, and then swamplands being created. This give to Mountains very veyr odd look, - mountain with jungle with flat swampland on peak of it.

That one is a bit bizarre - though I have a vague idea of what may have caused it. Is the underlying terrain of the mountain "grassland", then later "wetland"? If so, I can solve that one fairly easily and will do so (it blocks wetland spread to hills, though it didn't occur to me that it could spread to peaks as well).

Hmmm... Well even if they do require horses still, I just can't imagine those blantantly WH dinosaurs roaming erebus.

The "horse" ones actually don't look much like "Cold Ones" at all (which is what the WH guys ride) though the Warsaurus is definitely Stegadon-like.

It also seems like the new civs are weighted more heavily for AI selection. I haven't played a game yet without at least three popping up on a Large map.

Nothing's been edited to make it so - though 3 out of 5 isn't too unusual in an 8 or 9 civ game. If there are 9 civs, ~1/5 of them are new (5 out of 26), so just under 2 of them on average should be from the new-guys. 3 would be just slightly above average.

==

Please keep the feedback coming - especially regarding the CtD issue. I'm fairly sure there's just one cause and I'd love to track it down, but thus far haven't been able to. The good (and bad for me) news is that it does not repeat upon loading an autosave. I'm not sure what sort of error is capable of causing that.

I've never seen the "crash on game start" though - I'll investigate that one further.

It will be Monday evening before I'm able to release the initial fixes - so any feedback you can offer by then will help to shape what makes it in.

I'm loving the new civs (I've played as Archos and Mozequ... the good lizards), but I've been getting infrequent CTDs. I've never gotten any with vanilla FfH, so I'm thinking it's caused by Fall Further. Normally, I just load up the autosave and keep playing... definitely worth the cost of the new civs.

However, in my current game I'm crashing every time I hit the end turn button. At first, it crashed when an enemy galley attacked mine. I figured I'd avoid the crash by moving my galley out of range, but that just seems to have made things worse.

I've attached the save file. Fall Further is the only mod mod I'm running. Hopefully you guys can figure it out, but in the meantime, anyone have a suggested workaround? I really don't want to load up the earlier autosave, as a lot has happened in those turns, and I'm afraid I'll just hit the CTD again anyway.

I just had an idea... maybe if I have it change up the random seed, it won't CTD. Anyone have any idea how to change that setting in a game in progress?

Oh, as for other info on the save, it's set to epic speed, huge map, 18 civs. Also, I'm playing as the Mazatle (though I experienced CTDs with the Archos as well).

Just to re-emphasize: with the attached save file, the game should crash whenever you hit the End Turn button. It's not random like the other crashes everyone seems to experience.

Last Edit: I finally figured out a way around the crash... I had that suspicious galley suicidally attack an enemy galley- no crash when I ended my turn. I might try disbanding it tomorrow and see if that does the trick as well, but it seems almost certain that my galley was, for some reason, causing the CTD. Hope this helps.

I've also started getting random CTDs with the Archos civ near turn 200.

2. the Cualli world spell does not grant free civilian specialists to captured cities. i captured a couple of barb cities after i cast it and they didnt get the benefit, but my new settled cities did.

Hmm - shouldn't grant them to any city created/captured after it's initially cast. The timing is important for that reason. Are you sure they were added to newly settled cities?

oh, i just checked and newly settled ones dont either :p my bad, sorry :blush:

One last thought: The Agnostic trait limits the access to Hero units of the tribes that have it (All religions offer atleast one, most two). The Grigori are supplimented for this by the Adventurers, but both of the Lizzies still have only one late game hero at their disposal. I would suggest considering giving each an early to mid-game Hero to help balance this out.

YEAH!! more heroes! im thinking a powerful seer for the mazatle and a slave lord for mazatle...

--------

Regarding the crashes, i played a full game as cualli (well the AC got to 70 theni gave up. hell terrain killed me) i only had 2 CTD the entire game, one at turn 200, andother 100 turns later or so.

I'm finishing my game with v. 011 despite the frequent CTDs because it is such an interesting game. I'll move to 020 when I finish.

One thing that more than surprised me was when I saw the message "Keelyn has built Karlson." Later, sure enough, I saw him defending a Balserph city.

Now, the Dural were in the game, but were wiped out some time ago coincidently by Keelyn. However, I never have seen a civ build another civ's National Hero. The civilopedia entry doesn't say anything about it being a unique Dural unit.

As I said, I am playing with v. 011, but didn't see anything in this thread about this before or any fixes in subsequent patches.

I like the two new lizard civs. Not so hot for the first three, but I think that's because they have no real precedent for inclusion into the FFH world whereas lizards do.

Anyway, I'm curious about whether the lack of extra attack/defense/movement in Deep Jungle for lizardkin is intended or an oversight. It was kind of irritating to me so I changed it in my copy's XML files, but if it was intended for balance I'm going to change it back x_x

edit: well, I *thought* I changed it :P the promotion says "double movement in deep jungle" but doesn't seem to work. I wonder why...

The deep jungle feature was looked over in the Lizardkin promotion, it seems. To change it manually, you have to alter the promotion a bit:

Change the \Fall Further\Assets\XML\Units\CIV4PromotionInfos.xml file as follows:
Find the Lizardkin promotion (<Type>PROMOTION_LIZARDMAN</Type>)
and add an addition line to the TerrainDoubleMoves entry for the Deep Jungles (FEATURE_LIZ_JUNGLE) like so...


<TerrainDoubleMoves>
<TerrainDoubleMove>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_WETLAND</TerrainType>
<bTerrainDoubleMove>1</bTerrainDoubleMove>
</TerrainDoubleMove>
</TerrainDoubleMoves>
<FeatureDoubleMoves>
<FeatureDoubleMove>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_JUNGLE</FeatureType>
<bFeatureDoubleMove>1</bFeatureDoubleMove>
</FeatureDoubleMove>
<FeatureDoubleMove>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_LIZ_JUNGLE</FeatureType>
<bFeatureDoubleMove>1</bFeatureDoubleMove>
</FeatureDoubleMove>
</FeatureDoubleMoves>


Tested and working. Hope it helps.
Note: In order to have Offensive and Defensive bonuses in Deep Jungle with this promotion, you have to alter those settings as well. Woodsman promotions appear to be working correctly for Deep Jungle, though.

Oh, I think I forgot to say: When I captured a hippus (human) worker as the Cualli they turned into lizardmen workers.

Also, any chance of a Philosopher unit for the Danmos(name?) I just imagine them as being Philosophers/artists, also it would help seperate them flavourwise from the sidar and amurites.

Also, would you consider letting some other civs build trails instead of roads, just for the flavour of it. I'd say, the elves, the Archos etc.

Just report of observations. Yesterday i played immortal OCC with Cualli AI near me, it was on Creation map by cephalo, and they were closing my acess to rest of world , when i was enclosed by chains of mountains inside of continent.
They were top 1 in ranks, and developed pretty well (they were teching very fast). They built ALOT ALOT of javelin throwers, and used Rangers as main force, and spammed Nature mana all over their empire. Only nature, x3 of it., some adepts and swordsmans, cats.
(went druids? :) )
Their AI seems be pretty ok, they explored my land with hasting mobility adepts.
But at end they were killed by my dragonkillers/mages pretty easy :P
(We need fire sphere being nerfed :P )
I would not stand a chance if i was using another tactics other than form of titan/adv guild/apprentship fire mages.

I had my first CTD, but it was more of a hang than CTD. I'll have to go back and restart, reload an autosave, and then get to that point before posting a save. Vista makes a big deal of these crashes and offers full dumps. They don't offer much info I don't think.

Really enjoying your modmod, great fun and the new civs fit quite well. I have had two issues
CTD as reported elsewhere starting again makes all of the difference, seems to occur when one of the "new" disc units is made available and/or built first time

Second is the lizard RoK replacement seems not to gain xp like other priests.

Great work, I really appreciate it

Here's my CTD. Hit enter and it crashes. I looked around the Wb and didn't see anything out of the ordinary...

Civ: Arashan
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9760/arashcy8.jpg
Leader : Ushas Sinshi,
A: Neutral,
T: Raiders, Charismatic.
Design:
Fierce Warring Feline Nation.
Combine Early China (Kung-Fu) fighter style with swords , Martial Arts with Feline Warloving culture.
Game –wise: strong Metal + Recon lines. There is a sentence “Cat have 9 lives” , and that mean that Cats are good to evade things, as well death. The special tint of Arashans is that All their melee(metal) + assasins have increased (race promo) (20% or more) retreat ratio (some units are bit weak though, like no mithril weapons for champions, swords). With using Flanking 2 promos you can achieve some great retreat ratios , and that change play style to some new, different way, unused be4. Their warriors are fierce, fast and extremelly agile.
So, speed 2 , hi withdraw rate (a-ka Arched Horses) cheap units in metal line.
Also, they are animal (Lions hey) friendly, and their UU champion unit have subdue animal promo.
They are great and Well-known martial arts users, that can be rivaled only by Elohim monks.
Ruled by Warchief, they are not barbaric, but containing some own culture tribe of riders, that all their epos are about heroic acts of their fathers. During age of Magic they were dwelling not far from Lizardmans, and were in constant war with them (they receive –5 diplo with both Lizzie civs)

-5 "You are green slime"
:P

Their symbol is sign , that their legendary hero and warchief from age of magic Ashasa drawed with his (feline) finger on sand, b4 won legendary battle with lizardmans (who were one nation in age of magic) who opressed , enslaved and henocided pra-arashans, while being totally outnumbered. That prevented destruction of pra-arashans, and was a start of glorious rise of arashan nation. The sign resemble freedom, power, selfrighteousness of arashan nation. freedom, power, selfrighteousness are things that almost worshipped by arashan society as undoubted concept of being.
Also, Ying-Yang, Balance stuff as inspiration fits well.
Sure they should have their own adept units for Empyrean, RoK, Leaves. and weight -100 with OO, AV and Order (they are too tyranic religions for them) and full unability to adopt those religions.


Their hero is Shinas, is chosen, and is reincarnation of legenday Ashasa, who will be back to lead Arashan again into a battle in hard hours of Armageddon.He should be hero aviable late in game, somewhere in end of metal path (immortal tech or its pre-req?), and be very strong melee unit with enormous withdraw rate (almost unkillable) (cats are cats ).

also i found this one in net , and i like it : http://www.3dtotal.com/team/interviews/caroline_delen/ether_images/lunba02.jpg

-5 "You are green slime"
:P

lol :p

I reloaded my Archos game from a save a while back and I got the CtD again at about turn 217. I have all the FF civs in the game so I don't know if its related to the archos or one of the others.

I will start a new game as archos without any other FF civs and see if you still get CtDs. Also, does anyone know if there's any particular strategy with the archosian spiders? I haven't been able to find a good use for them.

I'd really rather not see cat people in FfH. I don't think there's any precedent for them, they wouldn't fit into the mythology, it would seem too derivative of The Elder Scrolls, and they're just too... well, they make me think of furries.

I guess I don't like the idea of Fall Further turning into a collection of random, disjointed civs that don't really fit with the feel of the game.

The five civs already in place do fit quite nicely, though (except maybe for the dino-mounts of the lizzies).

Also, does anyone know if there's any particular strategy with the archosian spiders? I haven't been able to find a good use for them.

I used them to harass my neighbors' workers and settlers early game. Late game, I used them as cannon fodder to weaken city defenders. Don't be afraid to let them die, since their chance of spawning at the nest depends on how many you control. Fewer spiders alive = greater chance for them to spawn.

EDIT: Dammit, I just got another CTD! The very next turn after the CTD that I managed to work around, it crashes every time I end turn. Here's the file. It's named like it is because I was so happy I managed to get around that first crash... it's like it's toying with me...

One thing I did notice is that this time it takes longer to crash... instead of happening almost as soon as I hit End Turn, it seems to happen directly after one of my city's borders expand.

I have good strat for spiders, better than mentioned above :P
1. Try to keep them being strong.
2. Use sometimes with natinality declared when more force needed.
3. Sign alot of Open Borders. Fortify 1 in your capital, and later 1 per city, barb orcs and all open bordes guys will be attacking them.... and die.... At end you will get hi level spider, and rivals will lose their exploring units.
4. Besides a roaming and eating random open porder guy (which you will do 100% rate whn spider have hi lvl) you can alway make fast hit and run back runs by your strong , trained spiders. I used mobility 2 for them, after i have combat 3. At end i was getting combat 5 mob 3 strong spider units. Alwasy try to end turn on hight defended tiles , like citadels / cities. The become your patrol, which eat any "friendly" target pretty fast. DONT LET THEM DIE, level them
5. Major one. The ritual called Nature's Revolt have huge power when used in hands of Archos. HUGE. When you have improved Ranger substititution Recluse, and load of animal units..... well :) i hope you people know , what Nature Revolt do, are you ? :)
I built:
Pact of Nillhorn (3 Giants, considered as Animal unit)
Load of hight leveled Giant Spiders, all striong , not strong were cannonfoddered as mentioned in post above.
and then Nature revolt... roamed around with recluses and got:

All giant spiders got + 2 str
Giants +2 str
30+ animals , captured by me , all with +2 str (Bears - 7 st, Lions 5 str)
There is a screenshot above, you can see my spiders have 8 str, and load of promos.
Its a OCC immortal level. (i playing with 1 city limit against AIs on immortal lvl). Which is actually suceed.

I was able to build also Baron, and call Mommy for +2 str stuff, but did it later and they got not such promos - i was hurrying abit, got much of war declares , i will do that next time too :)


As about of Arashans : well , they not flurries/furries as you say for sure, and i alwasy dreamed about Chm/Rai leader, and actually i inspired from Mrrshan (MOO2) more than Elder Scrolls, (a hate for lizzies is Elders scrolls idea though, but i like it very much )

PS: Mother is incredible city defender :D Imagine army of Charadon that atack your capital with 25 axes, no cats :D , each time he attack , he feed mother (and she heals) + new small spider born. He lost all 25 axes in 1 turn .... to Mother, only to her. She is very powerfull, dammit, and i like it.

As about of Arashans : well , they not flurries/furries as you say for sure, and i alwasy dreamed about Chm/Rai leader, and actually i inspired from Mrrshan (MOO2) more than Elder Scrolls, (a hate for lizzies is Elders scrolls idea though, but i like it very much )

Yeah, I guess I'm just rather biased for some reason. Actually, that makes me wonder... is there an easy way to turn off individual civs in Fall Further? I'd like to maybe do this so I can still set AI civs to Random without (possibly) increasing my chances to CTD, but in the future maybe it would be nice in case of a player's strange aversion to certain civs. Something built into the GUI would be nice, but failing that, is there a file to edit that would say "Don't pick these guys as a random civ"?

I had it only once, and after it i was able to load game and continue playing.
Played OCC with Grigori, fought Cualli

Yeah, I guess I'm just rather biased for some reason. Actually, that makes me wonder... is there an easy way to turn off individual civs in Fall Further? I'd like to maybe do this so I can still set AI civs to Random without (possibly) increasing my chances to CTD, but in the future maybe it would be nice in case of a player's strange aversion to certain civs. Something built into the GUI would be nice, but failing that, is there a file to edit that would say "Don't pick these guys as a random civ"?

In the XML file CivilizationInfos.xml, in the Assets/XML/Civilizations folder, each civ has a "Playable" and "AIPlayable" line. Set Playable to 0 to make the civ unselectable by human players, set AIPlayable to 0 to make it unselectable by the AI.

Thanks for posting the save games. I'm back home now and will trawl the three games to see if I can find something in common. For the moment the stability issue is the main concern, though I am still reading the feedback regarding balance etc - so please keep that coming too.

If I manage to find the cause, I'll post a fix straight away as a patch. I'm fairly sure it's graphics related (this style of CtD tends to be), and if so the fix should be simple once the cause is determined.

I think you can safely look at just the lizzies unless you added stuff to the other three in this release. I only had problems when they were in game.

I've started experiencing crashes in a new game with the good lizzies (can't ever remember the name). Using MaxAstro's excellent instructions, I made sure none of the AI players were using Fall Further civs, so it's definitely not related to something the AI's screwing up.

Once again, the map is Huge, Epic, 18 civs. First crash came around turn 373... I only have an autosave, and I'm not sure it's got a reproducable crash, so I won't bother putting it up.

Good luck getting it figured out. I seem to have lost interest in vanilla FfH for some reason...

I think you can safely look at just the lizzies unless you added stuff to the other three in this release. I only had problems when they were in game.

I've actually experienced crashes with the Archos, before lizzies were introduced. I hadn't run into any unavoidable crashes, though, but I didn't play them for very long.

okay, question time!

I'm playing Mazatl and running their unique civic... among other things, it says "+50% food and +50% hammers from trade routes" ... what does that mean? I'm not noticing anything...

yes, i was thinking about the lost lands civic also, and because trade routes do not normally generate food or hammers at all, giving "+50% food and +50% hammers from trade routes" means you get 50% of 0 hammers which is an extra... 0 hammers! perhaps this civic would be better if you said trade routes give a flat +1 food and flat +1 hammer rather than the modifyer?

I'm playing a new archos game with no other FF civs in and its past turn 300 - still no crash. I think the crashes are to do with one of the lizzie civs.

CTD :sad:, good lizzies (Mazatl?), Prince, turn 406, Std terra map, all added civs (except duval who got knocked out) plus a few vanilla others (minus knocked out Balseraphs). CTD occurs when end turn :cry:. Ah well...

yes, i was thinking about the lost lands civic also, and because trade routes do not normally generate food or hammers at all, giving "+50% food and +50% hammers from trade routes" means you get 50% of 0 hammers which is an extra... 0 hammers! perhaps this civic would be better if you said trade routes give a flat +1 food and flat +1 hammer rather than the modifyer?

If a trade route is worth 1 commerce, it produces 0.5 food and 0.5 hammer with the civic. This is rounded down so you don't see it. If you can get the trade route to be worth at least 2 commerce (population, Inn's, Taverns, Harbours) then you will start to see a +1:food: and +1:hammers: appear in the trade route window. A lot of profitable trade routes means a lot of bonus food/production. The downside is that you aren't allowed to trade outside your own empire, so it's really about developing your *own* empire to maximize the benefit.

Took me a while to work out how it worked too - but it's quite a nice benefit if you play to develop it. The trade routes have a base value, and the default setting is to produce 100% of this as Commerce, 0% as food and 0% as production. +50% food/hammers just means the setting becomes 100% commerce, 50% food, 50% hammers.

I switched to Lost Lands before I should have once and had to go from 90% to 40% research to make up the cost. Oops.

i still make the switch to lost lands the moment i get the tech (which is pretty high on my priority list). tiles with 4 food, 1 production, 3 commerce and 1 happiness are simply to good to pass up. The only problem is the immense unhappiness problem, since there's no way you can ever use all that food efficiently untill late game.

If a trade route is worth 1 commerce, it produces 0.5 food and 0.5 hammer with the civic. This is rounded down so you don't see it. If you can get the trade route to be worth at least 2 commerce (population, Inn's, Taverns, Harbours) then you will start to see a +1 and +1 appear in the trade route window. A lot of profitable trade routes means a lot of bonus food/production. The downside is that you aren't allowed to trade outside your own empire, so it's really about developing your *own* empire to maximize the benefit.

Took me a while to work out how it worked too - but it's quite a nice benefit if you play to develop it. The trade routes have a base value, and the default setting is to produce 100% of this as Commerce, 0% as food and 0% as production. +50% food/hammers just means the setting becomes 100% commerce, 50% food, 50% hammers.

ah ok. that makes sense, i havent actually adopted lost lands yet (didnt know it excisted until just recently :p)

How goes the CTD hunt Vehem? No pressure, but I get home in 7 hours and want to play with lizzies. ;)

Oooh, the lizardfolk from my mod have migrated ;) Congrats on the modmod. I'll have to give it a try to check it out :goodjob:

Thanks to the save games provided, I've tracked down one issue that may have been causing the CtD's. It wasn't something I would really have expected or looked for without the saves, so thanks for that.

The problem would have affected Professors, Wyvern Guard, Coatlann and Misquiztli. This would also explain the "occasional" CtD's reported pre-020 (Professors) and the increased rate post-020 (Wyvern Guard).

I've made the fix to those units and tried an AI-only game at Quick Speed using all 5 new races - no CtD's for the first 400 turns (at which point I decided to stop the test as the time between turns was becoming significant).

I can't promise that this will resolve the issue for everyone, though if it was working the way I think it was, it would have been a fairly significant cause of CtD's, on a fairly intermittent basis.

The fix should not break save games and will (hopefully) apply retroactively to games already in progress. For those games that are saved right at the point of a CtD, you may need to roll back by 1 additional auto-save point to correct any units already created that would have caused the problem. It may still work for those units, but I'm not convinced it should.

I've also bundled a few other minor fixes that I can get away with and still keep save-games intact into this patch, based on the feedback so far. See the Patch Post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6524211&postcount=3) for the full list of changes.

==

Thanks again for the feedback. As for the bugs - you keep finding them, I'll keep trying to fix them :goodjob:

Any idea what it was with the Wyvern Guard? I had built one 3-4 turns prior to my CTD.

Thanks for the quick work Vehem. :thumbsup:

Oooh, the lizardfolk from my mod have migrated ;) Congrats on the modmod. I'll have to give it a try to check it out :goodjob:

Thanks - Woodelf pointed me in the direction of them and Winddelay did some additional changes for some of the units to help them fit into Erebus. I didn't realize at the time that you'd contributed to the units though and I didn't message you to check - so apologies for that. I've amended the Credits list as per your PM :)

Any idea what it was with the Wyvern Guard? I had built one 3-4 turns prior to my CTD.

Thanks for the quick work Vehem. :thumbsup:

Heh - don't thank me until you've checked that it works. Your save-game was actually the only one I couldn't make CtD on my machine... :mischief:

Basically I'd tried something that may have made additions a little simpler. When a Unitclass is defined, it has a default unit. If the unit is unique to a given civilization, you then have to go through every civilization's unit list and specifically block that new unit.

I'd tried it the other way around, defaulting the Unitclass to having no unit (blocked to everyone) and then allowing only specific civs to build a unit for that class. The result would have been that you only have to make changes to the civs you want to use the new unit, not every civ in the game (which would work out much simpler for anyone who wanted to add new units/civs), but it seems to be causing problems when checking available promotions and/or for the AI.

Oh Vehem, I meant to say. I don't know about Hian, but much as I appreciate the gesture I'd rather the leaders had proper fantasy names instead of being named after us. Could you possibly just put us in the credits for the original ideas and change their names?

Oh Vehem, I meant to say. I don't know about Hian, but much as I appreciate the gesture I'd rather the leaders had proper fantasy names instead of being named after us. Could you possibly just put us in the credits for the original ideas and change their names?

To be fair, I'd stopped reading them as anything other than a leader name - been a while since I added the names and I guess my brain must have gotten used to it. It's also actually the first time anyone has mentioned the origin of the names - so now I'm wondering who else actually noticed... :D

Doesn't seem too out of character given the appearance of the mod-team members in-game (not to mention The Muppets), but I'll have a think about possible alternatives in anycase.