When do you use Free Religion ?

I'll tend do it really fast unless I really need those ''We trust or brothers in Faith'' diplo bonus.

Just some opinion plz

If I'm not benefiting for a state religion, and I'm not the founder of a religious bloc, then I go for it soon as I can. I usually get Paya, so that's pretty early.

Personally, I never use it. I get on Organized Religion and ride it the rest of the way. I'm a builder so I love the production.

Depends on the game. My current game I have the most widespread religion's shrine, its in all my cities, and I have several religious wonders so I won't be rushing to it. I may change after Scientific Method or wait until Computers. Each of those advances obseletes some of the benefits I get from religious buildings/wonders.

I'll use it unless I am after a particular benefit from another religious civic, or need to keep a religious diplo bonus going. If on a military victory path it is unlikely to be used.

Diplomatically, Free Religion is usually a wash, so although I don't ignore the diplomatic effects I usually make the decision economically. The +10% to research is a nice little plus, but you're giving up something to get it. I usually get Liberalism when I'm either involved in or gearing up for my big Medieval war, so I want to stay in Theocracy for a while to crank out better units. I'll generally make the switch after that war is over, and stay with FR for the rest of the game. It can also be a happiness boost, since under FR you get +1 for every religion in a city, frequently +3 happy, while with anything else you only get +1 for your state religion. With bigger cities that can be important.

My current game as Wang Kon I planned pretty early to remain religiously neutral . I am playing a Terra map so I figured that I should end up getting 2-3 religions (I got three through natural spread) and I've focused on building temples and monasteries in many of my cities. I've also built 3 "Cathedrals" so far and can build a couple more but haven't been able to yet. With the additional science boost of his UB on top of the monasteries I did the Liberalism beeline and with education picked up and rushed out Seowons and am currently building Oxford. My cities are quite happy since +3 happy and the ability to +3 happy from temples. I also have LOTS of culture and have pushed back Cyrus's borders considerably (the additional culture of free religion get multiplied by the cathedral, not to mention all the buildings). I even skipped drama a lot longer than usual since, while it gives the best culture bang for the buck religious buildings are excellent alternatives.

Usually I like to stay in Theocracy for the extra XP, but I have switched to Free Religion on occasions where I had multiple religions in all my cities and the extra happiness would come in handy.

Free Religion? Almost never. Once I get Theocracy I stay with it. Better soldiers always on hand to help with either a defense or planning an attack.

I always run Pacifism.

My current game as Wang Kon I planned pretty early to remain religiously neutral . I am playing a Terra map so I figured that I should end up getting 2-3 religions (I got three through natural spread) and I've focused on building temples and monasteries in many of my cities. I've also built 3 "Cathedrals" so far and can build a couple more but haven't been able to yet. With the additional science boost of his UB on top of the monasteries I did the Liberalism beeline and with education picked up and rushed out Seowons and am currently building Oxford. My cities are quite happy since +3 happy and the ability to +3 happy from temples. I also have LOTS of culture and have pushed back Cyrus's borders considerably (the additional culture of free religion get multiplied by the cathedral, not to mention all the buildings). I even skipped drama a lot longer than usual since, while it gives the best culture bang for the buck religious buildings are excellent alternatives.

*scratches nose... you might be interested to know that cathedrals no longer give the +2 happiness when you no longer possess a state religion... *cough free religion cough

*scratches nose... you might be interested to know that cathedrals no longer give the +2 happiness when you no longer possess a state religion... *cough free religion cough

Yeah, that much is kind of a raw deal. But the extra happiness from non-state religions compensates for losing the happiness from state religion cathedrals, and you can only have cathedrals in at most a third of your cities anyways.

Free Religion? Almost never. Once I get Theocracy I stay with it. Better soldiers always on hand to help with either a defense or planning an attack.

I always run Pacifism.

Looks like we have a pair, Always War and Always Peace. ;)

Theocracy is good when you're building a big army preparing for war. Pacifism is good when you're not, and GP are cheap enough it will probably get you one or two extras. Free Religion is good when you want to boost your research, have multiple religions in your empire, and aren't concerned about keeping your co-religionists in love with you. All three have their place IMO. So does Organized Religion. I don't think there's such a thing as an "always" civic, given the rhythms of the game.

Looks like we have a pair, Always War and Always Peace. ;)

Theocracy is good when you're building a big army preparing for war. Pacifism is good when you're not, and GP are cheap enough it will probably get you one or two extras. Free Religion is good when you want to boost your research, have multiple religions in your empire, and aren't concerned about keeping your co-religionists in love with you. All three have their place IMO. So does Organized Religion. I don't think there's such a thing as an "always" civic, given the rhythms of the game.

:lol:

Actually, in my eyes, Pacifism has proven to be a warmonger civic. No Upkeep is very, very good when having a empire wiht 20+ cities, usually making up with the military maintienance. The extra GP you get is just the icing of the cake.

:lol:

Actually, in my eyes, Pacifism has proven to be a warmonger civic. No Upkeep is very, very good when having a empire wiht 20+ cities, usually making up with the military maintienance. The extra GP you get is just the icing of the cake.
I've made my first topic about this one,... Pacifist warmonger :).

I like Free Religion a lot. I almost always switch to it even when warmongering after I get the pentagon. Often I'll switch to it after astronomy so I can trade with the opposite continent.

Free religion is useful when I have like 3 religions, staying on an island with little resources and requiring a bit more happiness boost.

It also comes handy when you are trapped between a few big military guys with different religons.

But in general, it's quite underpowered and pretty useless. 10% scientific boost? That's nothing. Is it worth it to take out all your state religion wonder effect, or eliminate the options of switching between OR/pacifism/theocratic? If that 10% bonus is multiplicative, not additive, then maybe I'll regard it higher.

I agree that pacifism can be a warmonger civic. Yesterday I played Ramses and use war chariot rush to attack 3 AIs on my continent, After I finished off two of the three opponents and took two capitals and a couple of really well developed and located cities my empire was so big and economy was on verge of breaking. I just had a GS so I bulbed philosophy, switch to pacifism and deleted some warriors and unpromoted units. It kept my heart beating so I could take time to queue-built more units to finish off the last guy. At the end I had two more GS to lightbulb education and won the liberalism race. That's not bad a bonus. :goodjob:

eh dunno guys... no upkeep is nice and all but I think the benefits are surely eliminated and then some if you have a significant army... I hoped to use it in my current game but I saw no point in paying my army twice o.O

If you want to pay no upkeep go for Nationalism. No upkeep plus considerable benefits.

eh dunno guys... no upkeep is nice and all but I think the benefits are surely eliminated and then some if you have a significant army... I hoped to use it in my current game but I saw no point in paying my army twice o.O

If you want to pay no upkeep go for Nationalism. No upkeep plus considerable benefits.

I tend to run both Nationalism and Pacifism. Makes for a huge empire :p

Yea just so long as you get rid of Pacifism XD

I don't really understand how you can be competitive militarily while still benefiting from Pacifism...? Not to mention the fact that the GP benefit quickly becomes marginal.

Yea just so long as you get rid of Pacifism XD

I don't really understand how you can be competitive militarily while still benefiting from Pacifism...? Not to mention the fact that the GP benefit quickly becomes marginal.

The GP benefit allows for massive GP spawns, allowing you to run a powerful economy with only the specialists. I can end up getting a specialist every eighth turn or such, improving my economy terribly. Settling those specialists balances out the heavy military cost :)

I believe Pacifism only costs extra for units outside your borders. So, if you do most of your fighting inside your empire, it's a good idea.

Wodan

That's friqqin awesome! :eek:

(defensive combat ftw)

Those who are using Paficism as a warmongering civic (:eek: ) seem to value only its low administrative cost. My feeling is, if your admin costs are that bad, you'd be better off choosing Paganism rather than Pacifism; same low costs, but you don't have the increased unit support costs. True, you lose your boost to GP production, but when I'm at war over an extended period before getting to Fascism I tend to suffer so much war weariness that I can't maintain a lot of specialists anyway, so the benefit is mostly lost.

Every single civic in Civ4, I'm convinced, has its very important place. For Free Religion, that place is when you have very large cities. (Same with Environmentalism, which is another one people sneer at -- without really trying it, I often think.) With, practically speaking, three religions in every city (very doable), you get +2 happy faces (+3, - the one you'd have anyway from your state religion) in every city. Not chopped liver.

As for the 10% science boost, I disagree very strongly that it's "nothing." Think of it like a free click upward on the research slider without reducing your gold, plus one free scientist specialist per 10 you're running. I'd say it's at least as good as what you usually get from Representation (except in the early game from the Pyramids, where 3 research points counts for a lot more).

*scratches nose... you might be interested to know that cathedrals no longer give the +2 happiness when you no longer possess a state religion... *cough free religion cough

Was using it for the +50% culture bonus and the +1 happy incense still applies and I had 1 source of incense within my borders. I was in a tight culture border war with Cyrus and the extra boost helped get my 2 more gems and a rice resource that had been controlled by Cyrus.

Yeah, that much is kind of a raw deal. But the extra happiness from non-state religions compensates for losing the happiness from state religion cathedrals, and you can only have cathedrals in at most a third of your cities anyways.

Actually, since each city has 3 religions unless you try to double-up each could have 1 cathedral. However, as mentioned above, the culture was the overriding reason for their construction and thus my central cities don't really need them anyway.

Those who are using Paficism as a warmongering civic (:eek: ) seem to value only its low administrative cost. My feeling is, if your admin costs are that bad, you'd be better off choosing Paganism rather than Pacifism; same low costs, but you don't have the increased unit support costs. True, you lose your boost to GP production, but when I'm at war over an extended period before getting to Fascism I tend to suffer so much war weariness that I can't maintain a lot of specialists anyway, so the benefit is mostly lost.

Every single civic in Civ4, I'm convinced, has its very important place. For Free Religion, that place is when you have very large cities. (Same with Environmentalism, which is another one people sneer at -- without really trying it, I often think.) With, practically speaking, three religions in every city (very doable), you get +2 happy faces (+3, - the one you'd have anyway from your state religion) in every city. Not chopped liver.

As for the 10% science boost, I disagree very strongly that it's "nothing." Think of it like a free click upward on the research slider without reducing your gold, plus one free scientist specialist per 10 you're running. I'd say it's at least as good as what you usually get from Representation (except in the early game from the Pyramids, where 3 research points counts for a lot more).

Hmm... you may be somewhat right about environmentalism though imo it sux so bad eco-wise for a mostly marginal benefit (unless you have some reeeally huge cities). I see some benefit from it for getting factories and other sickness causing buildings up asap. Once you get some combination of ecology, medicine, and refrigeration you shouldn't need it any more I think. I would have a real hard time choosing it over my favs: either Free Trade or State Property.

Aside from unique diplomatic situations I don't see much value in Free Religion. While I agree that the science boost could be significant, the happiness bonus is not. Why not just build cathedrals in your few big unhappy cities and run a more potent civic like Theocracy or Organized Religion?

Paganism is way badder than Pacifism ; The difference from Low to No upkeep is about 30+ gold when your empire gets big enough, and that's simply 30 (Or 15, not quite sure) units. So technically, you get more units than in Paganism when having Pacifism, AND you'll get a 100% GP bonus.

Probably 3 out of 5 games I never adopt a state religion due to diplomacy reasons - so I will jump into FR in a heartbeat. In the other 2 of 5, I usually wait an awfully long time before I switch out of OR.

Aside from unique diplomatic situations I don't see much value in Free Religion. While I agree that the science boost could be significant, the happiness bonus is not. Why not just build cathedrals in your few big unhappy cities and run a more potent civic like Theocracy or Organized Religion?

1) Civic expenses.

2) Desire for a commerce/science boost from a religious civic (as opposed to a hammer/promotion bonus).

Paganism is way badder than Pacifism ; The difference from Low to No upkeep is about 30+ gold when your empire gets big enough, and that's simply 30 (Or 15, not quite sure) units. So technically, you get more units than in Paganism when having Pacifism, AND you'll get a 100% GP bonus.

If you consider just upkeep vs. unit costs then it is possible to make the numbers work to your favor either way (at the risk of other, military, concerns).

Consider, however, that it really isn't a fair comparison since nearly the same time (possibly just 1 tech later) you get access to Pacifism you can access Free Religion (Paganism with benefits).

I already agreed with your second point. Your first point holds some weight but OR is expensive for a reason - it owns. Sure a beaker boost is great but I see buildings as a sort of "everything boost". +25% anything is sick sweet.

Hmm... you may be somewhat right about environmentalism though imo it sux so bad eco-wise for a mostly marginal benefit (unless you have some reeeally huge cities).


I find it's necessary as soon as I have cities of size 25+. Below that, I can manage without it. I also find that, when I do get cities that size and make the switch, it IMPROVES my economy. I have wondered about this for some time, and I think I figured it out; with the health pressure removed, my cities switch a few people from food to commerce for a net economic gain despite the lost trade routes.

It's not a marginal benefit. Every person added to your city's pop is a specialist at that size.


Aside from unique diplomatic situations I don't see much value in Free Religion. While I agree that the science boost could be significant, the happiness bonus is not. Why not just build cathedrals in your few big unhappy cities and run a more potent civic like Theocracy or Organized Religion?

I generally switch to FR after my big Medieval war is over. At that point, I have usually generated several Great Generals and settled them in my main military production cities, so the experience boost from Theocracy is no longer needed. I also have my production infrastructure up and running, Forges in all my production towns, and plenty of hammer tiles being worked, so city building isn't an issue either, and any city that might want to make a missionary has a monastery. So there's limited value in either of those two civics. As for Pacifism, by that time the GP flow has seriously slowed, so there's less benefit from that, too.

All in all, unless there is some major diplomatic reason to keep a state religion for a while, FR becomes the best choice about that time. If I do need the religious diplomacy boost for a time, I switch back to Pacifism instead, but only temporarily.

I already agreed with your second point. Your first point holds some weight but OR is expensive for a reason - it owns. Sure a beaker boost is great but I see buildings as a sort of "everything boost". +25% anything is sick sweet.

OR is an excellent civic that costs a lot. If you already have lots of hammers available to your cities but not as much commerce then spending commerce to get hammers doesn't make as much sense, especially since those hammers can only be spent on buildings.

Strange thing is that in my last and current games my civic choice leveraged my trait as opposed to compensated for it (like I describe above). I was Bismark and ran OR pretty much the whole game whereas in my current Wang Kong game I am running Free Religion/Free Speech. I probably would have spent some time in OR in order to build and spread the religious buildings for the 3 religions in all my cities but as I REXed early I was running around 30/70 science/gold and the added expense of OR would have made that even worse.

(In response to Hammurbabble)

Beh, well to each his own. My largest cities are around 21 at their largest (with the exception of my GP farm) so dunno mojo.

I believe I sort of understand what you are saying about theocracy so I will let that go... but how can you say that you have "enough hammers"...? There's no such thing!!! There is always a new building around each research corner and the faster you can take advantage of these opportunities the greater the benefit there is to you.

Perhaps you are underestimating the spiritual trait...?

Those who are using Paficism as a warmongering civic (:eek: ) seem to value only its low administrative cost. My feeling is, if your admin costs are that bad, you'd be better off choosing Paganism rather than Pacifism; same low costs, but you don't have the increased unit support costs. True, you lose your boost to GP production, but when I'm at war over an extended period before getting to Fascism I tend to suffer so much war weariness that I can't maintain a lot of specialists anyway, so the benefit is mostly lost.

Every single civic in Civ4, I'm convinced, has its very important place. For Free Religion, that place is when you have very large cities. (Same with Environmentalism, which is another one people sneer at -- without really trying it, I often think.) With, practically speaking, three religions in every city (very doable), you get +2 happy faces (+3, - the one you'd have anyway from your state religion) in every city. Not chopped liver.

As for the 10% science boost, I disagree very strongly that it's "nothing." Think of it like a free click upward on the research slider without reducing your gold, plus one free scientist specialist per 10 you're running. I'd say it's at least as good as what you usually get from Representation (except in the early game from the Pyramids, where 3 research points counts for a lot more).

As far as I understand the 10% scientific bonus from FR is an additive bonus. It's just like having a free monastery in your city. It's not the same as increasing your scientific slider by 10%.

And I believe pacifism only increases upkeep cost , ie. units out of cultural border. So it's possible to use it by first cutting down some unpromoted, obsolete units, then use the queue-building micromanagement to delay the completion of some units for a while, and suddenly switch out of pacifism and crank out your army when you're ready. This works best if you play a spiritual leader (like Ramses in the case I cited)

(In response to Hammurbabble)
I believe I sort of understand what you are saying about theocracy so I will let that go... but how can you say that you have "enough hammers"...? There's no such thing!!! There is always a new building around each research corner and the faster you can take advantage of these opportunities the greater the benefit there is to you.

And there are two ways to take advantage, by researching the enabling technology more quickly or by constructing the building more quickly. For technologies that enable units and not technologies (situationally more important) getting there quicker is more important and thus a 10% bonus is more beneficial in that case.

Now, I will concede that building libraries, monasteries and similar buildings can thus increase your science rate sooner. This, and lots of other time-value trade-offs can be used to justify one or the other but conceptually more hammers for buildings doesn't help if you can't get to those buildings in a timely manner because your overall research stagnated due to the high cost of OR.

Even OR vs. Paganism can exhibit this if, for instance, you don't have CoL and Currency yet, but you can build the courthouse and markets really quick once you get there. If you are stuck in the red at 0% science OR is hurting you. This extreme case aptly exhibits the trade-offs involved with OR.

I agree with the above poster that ALL the civics seem to have their uses and have been balanced fairly well in that I don't feel an overwhelming need to always use the same ones game after game.

I correct my previous post. There are +1 unit cost per unit even you keep your army within your own border (i.e. there's no free unit). So as I said, if you have a big enough empire, and you want to take out a weaker foe, you need to delete some obsolete units and queue build the more advanced units if you want to use pacifism as a cost-saving measure. There's a bit of micromanaging involved but it's worth it because in combination with Caste system (which most people will use playing an expansionist), you can still keep your research going by the additional GP.

And I've just checked it, yes, the bonus of FR on science is just like an additional monastery. It's not like moving your science slider up by 10%.

Assume your city has 40 commerce, has a library, university and observatory (75% bonus all together, pretty normal for a city when you can run free religion), you use 50% slider


Original: 40 commerce x 50% x 175% = 35 beakers
use 60% slider: 40 commerce x 60% x 175% = 42 beakers (7 more beakers)
use FR: 40 commerce x 50% x 185% = 37 beakers (2 beakers increase)


Let say you have U Sankore and has a temple, and has a state religion (so 2 free beaker after slider multiplication)

40 commerce x 50% = 25 => 20 + 2 (from U Sankore) = 22 x 175% = 38.5 beakers

I don't even include specialist to complicate the situation, but basically if you have those state-religion based wonders, FR is quite likely counter-productive on your research.

Once again, FR is quite underwhelming IMHO.

FR is more important for happiness than the beaker benefit. Somebody suggested why not simply make cathedrals? Three reasons: it costs hammers, and we're talking about high pop commerce cities, so you have to decide Okay am I making that Observatory or a 3 or more temples plus a Cathedral? The happiness from FR comes FREE at zero hammer cost.

Second, you may not have incense.

Third, you might need the happy ON TOP of the cathedrals. You only get so many cathedrals. If you have 9 cities and 3 religions, you have to have built 27 temples and you only get 9 cathedrals. Say you have 3 production cities that don't need them. That leaves 6 cities to spread those 9 cathedrals out... 6 cities with just one each, and 3 cities that get two.

Wodan

Now I'm all confused.

I don't really care whether I have incense or not :o
It's more a bonus imo.

You can't have the happy "ON TOP" of the cathedrals, aside from the incense benefit it's an either or. You certainly don't need a cathedral in all your cities... and forbid the thought you build two unless you reaaaally need a culture boost.

I could see a possible strat of switching to FR while cathedrals are building... or in some sort of bizarre case where your cities are full of religions early on when you are struggling to get happiness - perhaps the ideal sweaty papaya scenario?

Even a free monastery in every city is still not a small boost, and it's one which (assuming it's the right time, which it almost automatically will be unless you've got the Praya) comes at effectively little to no cost.

Cathedrals are expensive to build. I generally only build them when I need a culture boost, which means on a border city or when I'm going for a culture victory. There are better things to spend the hammers on. If you've worked previously to make sure all your larger cities have three religions in them, that happy boost is free.

In the early game, for a period of time when you're trying to get your basic infrastructure up in your core cities, that 25% boost to buildings from OR is really great, but it's not so much of a much later on. Sure, there are still buildings to build, but I find I can usually build them in decent time as long as my city isn't hopeless in terms of production.

As for city size, this may be a function of how I play. By the game's end, I try to have FOUR GP farms, one for scientists, one for merchants, one for spies, and one for engineers. The engineer city is also a production city of course and has the Ironworks in it. I can't always manage enough food to do that one, though. But the other three usually I can. Each of these cities should have a population of, ideally, 27, which works every tile and supports 7 specialists. Sometimes it's a bit lower, if not every tile can be worked for instance. It's at this part of the game that Environmentalism becomes necessary. I don't have any trouble choosing between it and Free Market; the real tears might come when I'm pursuing a Domination win, suffering economic doldrums and want to be in State Property. But I haven't been to that point while using this economic strategy yet.

I don't think it's fair of you to say that a 25% building production boost is great early on but somehow isn't that important later, yet conversely the measly 10% science boost is so nice all through the game...? That's illogical.

If you are running OR you could even take a few tiles off of hammer production and put them on towns etc and come out quite nice.

I may reevaluate my use of cathedrals however as I hear a lot of "they are quite costly" which I do agree with. Consider though that you might also have the necessary resource to cut the build time in half, in which case it might be an easier choice.

I don't think it's fair of you to say that a 25% building production boost is great early on but somehow isn't that important later, yet conversely the measly 10% science boost is so nice all through the game...? That's illogical.

Not when you consider the relative importance of building construction versus research at different times in the game. Let's take the example of a medium city, not heavy production. It has 2 grassland hills with mines and railroads (8), two grassland forests with lumber mills and railroads (6) and 2 watermills with Replaceable Parts (4), base total 19 (including the city square), and it also has a Forge, a Factory, and power, bringing total production to 33. You're getting health problems from all those production buildings and you need to build a Public Transport, which costs 150. Under FR, that would take 5 turns to build. Under OR, with the cost reduced to 113, it would take 4 turns. I don't see the sense in sacrificing some research just to get that PT 1 turn earlier, especially when I'm paying more in admin costs for OR as well. OR doesn't affect building wonders or units.

Now OTOH in the early game, let's say you have the same city but without the railroads, without Replaceable Parts, and without the factory or the power (but with the Forge), wanting to build a University. Also it's a bit smaller, so it's not working the watermills (or you've got farms or cottages there as a better use of the tile in the early game, which it is). The base production drops to 9, and with a Forge that goes up to 11. A University costs 200, or 150 with OR. Without OR it would take 18 turns to build, with OR 14, and that's a fairly major savings in time. Or consider even earlier, maybe the city is smaller, is only working one of the mines and neither of the forests in order to keep growing, and is trying to build a Courthouse. With that whopping 4 hammers, the 120-hammer Courthouse will take 30 turns, while the 90-hammer Courthouse under OR will take only 23 turns.

This is what I mean by the benefit of OR declining later in the game to the point it isn't worth the upkeep cost. Saving 7 turns is one thing, saving 1 turn something else again.

But any research boost you can get is a good idea, if you're not paying for it too much elsewhere.

Er are you sure OR doesn't affect wonders...? I thought it did.

Unless you really have a big civ the upkeep difference even between high and low seems somewhat insignificant to me but perhaps not.

The only other point I would make for your consideration is the benefit of switching back and forth between OR and FR using the spiritual trait. Use FR to quickly get the tech you want and then flip to OR to help all your cities build the building it unlocks. Switch back after and repeat. Very useful.

Organized Religion DOES affect wonders.

If you consider just upkeep vs. unit costs then it is possible to make the numbers work to your favor either way (at the risk of other, military, concerns).

Consider, however, that it really isn't a fair comparison since nearly the same time (possibly just 1 tech later) you get access to Pacifism you can access Free Religion (Paganism with benefits).

With Free Religion, you lose a lot of wonder bonuses which I use, and normally I also tend to lose all of my good friends switching religions.

And the +100% GP beats +10% science imho.

On the religious wonders, i don't see how you can really manage to build them unless you're industrious and/or playing on lower difficulties and/or have stone for them. I need all my excess hammers to build units, i don't have the time to spare building them. Plus the AI will get to them first unless i beeline them. The University of Sankore is along the lib tech path, but the Spiral Minaret requires you to tech divine right, which is the absolute biggest waste of beakers in the game.

I never build Spiral Minaret. And you forgot the Ankor Wat, requiring Philosophy :p (I know it's not a direct religious wonder, but it works excellently with the other two... Please note all three of them requires Stone for 2x speed;) ) Also, Free Religion is better with a CE, while Pacifism is better with a SE, of which I use the last one.

With Free Religion, you lose a lot of wonder bonuses which I use


There are a total of 4 world wonders that have ANY benefits dependent on having a state religion, and I'm not sure about one of those. The three I'm sure about are the Sistine Chapel (which is a culture boost, not that important unless you're going for a culture victory IMO), the Spiral Minaret (+2 gold per SR building) and the University of Sankore (+2 science per SR building).

It's true that in a town with all three SR buildings, you'll get a bigger science boost from the U of Sankore than from FR. The gold benefit from the Minaret is nice, too, probably coming close to a religious shrine depending on circumstances. So if you have those particular wonders, that's an argument against going FR until you get Computers and the effect disappears anyway. Or, to put it another way, the value of those wonders increases considerably and they become a must if you are trying to avoid going FR.

This might be a good strategy if you're pursuing a diplomatic victory: get those two wonders, because you're going to be staying with a state religion all the way through for the diplo benefits.

As I never build those two wonders (I have much better things to spend the hammers on frankly), it's not a concern for me. And if you fail to get them, then it won't be an issue for you.


I also tend to lose all of my good friends switching religions.


Yes, and all your worst enemies, too. Again, this is important only if you're going for a diplomatic victory. If you're not, you don't need the diplomatic boost from religion.


And the +100% GP beats +10% science imho.

Like the boost to building construction from OR, this is of much greater value early on than later, although the reason why is the exact opposite. Take a look at this article from the Civ4 War Academy by Pfeffersack:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/civics_guide.php


Although the doubled amount of GPP does not transform into 100% more great people (the increase is probably rather 20-30 %), the civic pays out if used properly. The real benefit isn’t the pure extra number, but the fact that you will get your GPs earlier - and one of the basic rules of Civilisation is that earlier advantages weight more.
So they question is when to use Pacifism?

If you are running a game heavily leaned towards GP, of course. You might run Pacifism then until the end, but you should still keep in mind that the effect fades the more GPs you have already gotten. Taken to the extreme: At some point, even the 100% increase will not yield to another GP because of the geometrical cost increase.


By the time you can get FR (without Schwedagon Paya, and IMO you should just about never take it from that), the benefit of Pacifism will be pretty much nil.

Edit: Angkor Wat does not lose its ability without a SR. If you don't build the Spiral Minaret, you have only half as good a reason to avoid SR as if you did that plus U of Sankore. And FR works just as well with a SE as with a CE, since it affects bulbs from specialists as well as from commerce. It's the other way around, Pacifism is of little value with a CE.

Eh Divine right can be rather useless but it could be of value if you managed to get it first and then traded it for basically anything you could want. Spiral Minaret sux rather badly imo as does the University of Sankore. They might look good in theory but city specialization is the name of the game and with all that nice extra gold and beakers strewn about in all different cities it is of very little value (unfortunately... as I would love them to be more useful).

Also, you are not thinking clearly if you dismiss the benefits of a SR by saying "oh you will lose enemies as well as friends". What if the friends I have lost are my two most powerful neighbors and the friend I made is Stalin who has 3 cities and longbows in 1980? Then I'm screwed no matter how jazzed my people are about their new found freedoms.

U Sankore actually comes quite handy if you have stone (and I'd say 60% chance by that time my empire will expand enough to have stone). For 200+ hammers (with double production) you get 2 to 4 beakers per city before adding those library/university bonuses for a decent stretch of time, and this is not affected by the research scale. This is like a free GS per city.

And people also forget the culture powerhouse Sistine Chapel. Even you don't need a cultural victory this is great for land grabbing. I don't think the bonus on monastery expire in terms of culture.

FR does have its niche especially at the end game. But considering the flexibility you can have with a state religion (can go production oriented, GP oriented, military oriented ...+ state religion wonders), the rewards of FR are sort of underwhelming. I strongly recommend an upgrade to a 20% research bonus, and +1 dip bonus with those civs whose state religions have spread into your land (we are open to your religon, even we don't officially hardsell it, shouldn't you feel good?)

PS. Theocratic should receive a diplomatic penalty vs civs that hold different state religons. Firaxis is just being too politically correct.

I like the diplo affects, but as for defending a state religion choice with a wonder, of course if you build those wonders you will want a state religion. If you intend to adopt FR building those wonders is a waste of hammers. You approach the decision like:"I just go Liberalism, should I go FR now?". However, the proper general approach is, "since I plan to go FR I should go get Liberalism and avoid state religion specific wonders".

As much as specialization is good some degree of generalization is unavoidable, and even beneficial. Throughout the game your needs change and while specific cities can drive the bulk of an aspect of the economy those other cities can be tweaked to focus on the most pressing needs (military, research, etc).

Also, you are not thinking clearly if you dismiss the benefits of a SR by saying "oh you will lose enemies as well as friends". What if the friends I have lost are my two most powerful neighbors and the friend I made is Stalin who has 3 cities and longbows in 1980? Then I'm screwed no matter how jazzed my people are about their new found freedoms.

No you're not. Just because your neighbors don't adore you any longer doesn't mean they'll become enemies. It could be argued that FR ought to give you an actual penalty w/r/t someone like Isabella, since you've become "godless," but it doesn't, it just removes any bonus or penalty you were getting from religion before. You'll still be able to conduct quite effective diplomacy for most purposes, i.e. you can still trade, and get people to declare war on each other, and so on.

Works the other way, too; if Stalin hated you before because you were of the wrong religion (wow, how ironic :rolleyes: -- I mean, seriously, Stalin the religious fanatic?) he isn't going to become your best buddy now that you've become irreligious, he'll just hate you a bit less.

It IS true, though, that this, like most decisions in Civ, has to be made in the context of the whole game, and there might be diplomatic reasons particular to the game you're playing at the time you're playing it that make it wise to wait to switch. I think I did say that earlier. ;)


I strongly recommend an upgrade to a 20% research bonus, and +1 dip bonus with those civs whose state religions have spread into your land (we are open to your religon, even we don't officially hardsell it, shouldn't you feel good?)

PS. Theocratic should receive a diplomatic penalty vs civs that hold different state religons. Firaxis is just being too politically correct.


LOL I like both those ideas. But in terms of game balance I'm not sure they make sense. Maybe if you also increased the cost of FR, and lowered the cost of Theocracy. As I've pointed out several times, the benefits of Organized Religion, Pacifism, and Theocracy all get diluted over time and play. OR saves you less building time, Pacifism generates fewer GP slower, and Theocracy is made almost superfluous by the number of GGs you should have gotten (unless you're playing a totally peaceful game, and then what's the point of Theocracy anyway?).

I certainly agree that FR is best left to fairly late in the game. It isn't nearly as good as the others in the early game, but as the game progresses, in almost all circumstances I believe it becomes the best religious civic, as the benefits of the others decline over time.

LOL I like both those ideas. But in terms of game balance I'm not sure they make sense. Maybe if you also increased the cost of FR, and lowered the cost of Theocracy. As I've pointed out several times, the benefits of Organized Religion, Pacifism, and Theocracy all get diluted over time and play. OR saves you less building time, Pacifism generates fewer GP slower, and Theocracy is made almost superfluous by the number of GGs you should have gotten (unless you're playing a totally peaceful game, and then what's the point of Theocracy anyway?).

I certainly agree that FR is best left to fairly late in the game. It isn't nearly as good as the others in the early game, but as the game progresses, in almost all circumstances I believe it becomes the best religious civic, as the benefits of the others decline over time.

Another version that is not as extreme is: With FR, take out the automatic 10% research bonus, instead every regular academic building (library, university, observatory, laboratory, not including academy, Oxford and monasteries) is given an additional 5% bonus.

So a city with no research buildings gain nothing from FR, but a full research oriented city with all 4 buildings will have 20% bonus.

This is more realistic compared to that freebie 10% bonus IMO. With fewer restrictions, dogmas and interferences, it will be easier to conduct research (especially in Civ, the term "research" is not limited to natural science, it also includes artistic and political areas.... and even natural science is limited by religion to some extent, just look at the stem cell research).

From the game mechanics, you have to work to get the bonus, and you won't get them right away if you conquer a city because all those buildings would have be destroyed. And only at the very end you get laboratory to get the last 5% so most of the time you have a 10-15% bonus. I don't think it will be too overpowered.

I only switch to free religion once I tech computers and it makes my religious wonders obsolete. The pentagon can make up for the switch from theocracy and the research bonus is nice but the happiness bonus isn't really necessary for be by then.

I go OR until I get Emancipation, then I switch to FR if there's a shot at a culture victory or I need to get a move on for Spacerace.

Or I forget altogethe and wonder why my science rate is so cr@p late game!

The Apostolic Palace, if leveraged properly, makes adapting a state religion, and keeping it until Mass Media, better than Free religion because of the diplomatic benefits. Remember, the AP religion can affect civs that doesn't have the SR of the AP, as long as one city have the religion.

Managed properly, you can even win one early victory before Free Religion becomes available.

And the 2 hammers per religious building is just icing on the cake.

If you also build the U. of Sankore, the S. Minaret, and Sistine Chapel, then it would enhance the effect of your temples etc in your cities.

Besides, 10% science once you have a tech lead is nothing compared to the production benefits and missionaries without monasteries with OR, experience with theocracy, or GP with pacifism. If I have Oxford, universities, observatories, libraries, in my primary science cities, which I usually have, 10% is small fry compared to the hammers I would have saved building those buildings.

Diplomatically, a state religion, if managed properly, can give you very close friends, and really worst enemies. Is it worth it, for example, by switching to Free Religion, to have your friends go from friendly to cautious so that your enemies can go from annoyed to cautions? That your friends will become mere acquaintances so that your worst enemies will hate you less? I'd rather have enemies that hate my guts and friends that will stand by me than having fair weathered friends and cautions former enemies whom I can't totally rely. At least I know how the AIs will act.

To qualify, however, Free Religion has its uses, and in fact, is very good, if players manage it correctly, and the situation calls for it. However, it is incorrect to say that

FR > Having a state religion

in the late game.

Rather,

Free Religion = Having a state religion

in the late game.

Until computers and mass Media at least.

The Apostolic Palace, if leveraged properly, makes adapting a state religion, and keeping it until Mass Media, better than Free religion because of the diplomatic benefits.


The AP is irrelevant to the question unless you do not own it and want to be elected leader and control the propositions. I've been leader of the AP while running FR, which puzzled me but I figured out it was because I had conquered the city that built it. If you have it, you're automatically posed for election, even if you're running FR. If not, you won't be.

The main benefit to being leader in the AP, for me, is being able NOT to pose resolutions, which avoids the diplo penalty for defying them when necessary. ;)


Managed properly, you can even win one early victory before Free Religion becomes available.


Possibly, IF you're playing on a pangaea, which I never do. On a map with oceans, there is no way to pull this off; you are sure to have Liberalism before you can spread the AP's religion to all civs on the other continent.


And the 2 hammers per religious building is just icing on the cake.


But you get that no matter what religion you're running.


If you also build the U. of Sankore, the S. Minaret, and Sistine Chapel, then it would enhance the effect of your temples etc in your cities.


This has been discussed already. Yes, IF you have the first two of those Wonders (the third is important only if you're going for a culture victory), then you're better off running a SR -- but that means you have to build those wonders instead of building other things which, together with FR, I find more valuable, plus you have to research Divine Right, which except for the SM and Versailles is pretty much worthless. Who needs to found another religion that late in the game?


Besides, 10% science once you have a tech lead is nothing compared to the production benefits and missionaries without monasteries with OR, experience with theocracy, or GP with pacifism.


This has also been discussed. Late in the game, all those other benefits decline drastically. The production benefit from OR saves you very few turns once your productivity is well established, compared to the massive savings in the early game. Missionaries without monasteries? You'll have enough monasteries built by then. Experience? Either you're fighting wars, in which case you'll have generated enough GGs to settle that you've got plenty of experience in your main unit-producing cities, or you won't be, in which case you won't need the experienced troops anyway. GP? The escalation in points needed to produce GP mean that the value of pacifism declines over time. Early on, sure, it means much earlier GP and it's very good to run it, unless you're pursuing a pure warmonger strategy. But later, it's overvalued by other things -- like what you get from FR.


Diplomatically, a state religion, if managed properly, can give you very close friends, and really worst enemies. Is it worth it, for example, by switching to Free Religion, to have your friends go from friendly to cautious so that your enemies can go from annoyed to cautions?


That depends. If you want to pursue a diplomatic victory, no. If you want to pursue any other kind, and have the flexibility to choose your military targets, yes. (Although for another reason you shouldn't go FR if pursuing a culture victory, either. But for Space Race, Domination, or Conquest, it's the best choice from the mid-game on.)

That depends. If you want to pursue a diplomatic victory, no. If you want to pursue any other kind, and have the flexibility to choose your military targets, yes. (Although for another reason you shouldn't go FR if pursuing a culture victory, either. But for Space Race, Domination, or Conquest, it's the best choice from the mid-game on.)


Well, I can agree with that but State Religion is better with Cultural, Diplomatic, possibly Time (although it can be argued).

Hmm. Maybe that's the reason I always go with State Religion. Almost all my wins are Diplomatic and Cultural because I don't warmonger a lot.

Possibly, IF you're playing on a pangaea, which I never do. On a map with oceans, there is no way to pull this off; you are sure to have Liberalism before you can spread the AP's religion to all civs on the other continent.


You only need optics to spread religions over oceans, not astronomy. Metal Casting > Machinery + Compass > Optics. If you beeline it you can get it ridiculously early, especially if you bulb. Then you just gift them the caravel and the missionary if you don't feel like opening borders or they're running theocracy.