There's 1 god per sphere, right? But it's been mentioned that Arawn originally had Life and Death. So, did the One make 20, or did one get bumped off before the Age of Magic?

There originally were 20.

Then Sucellus God of Nature got himself killed.

Then he got reborn and took Life with him.

Cernunnos got Nature instead, thus creating a 21th seperate sphere.

<canon changes going on>

Was Arawn then the most powerful of the original 20 angels that the One Created, seeing as he has power over 2 "spheres"?

Back then it probably wasn't seen as two seperate spheres. ;)

He did have 2 separate Archangels under him though, Basium for Life and Gyra for Death.

I believe it has been state that the Gods/Angels' powers were not equal though, but I think it was Agares who was the strongest, not Arawn. Basium certainly thought that Succellus was a weakling, and Bhall is stated as being much stronger than her rival Mulcarn.

He did have 2 separate Archangels under him though, Basium for Life and Gyra for Death.

Hmm, that's weird.

The whole question of relative power is confusing to me. I guess I just never thought of it like that. Its a perfectly valid question, but I never imagined the gods as people with power x, y and z. They are the manifestation of their dominions, as much a prisioner to the aspect they personify as they are its controller.

The gods that oppose each other don't do so out of rivalry's and the typical biases of polytheistic mythology's. They oppose each other because their aspects are opposed. Bhall is the goddess of fire, but her real aspect is sudden dynamic change. Because of that she opposed Mulcarn the god of winter whose dominion represented stasis. Bhall opposed Sucellus because the nature gods aspect is growth, slow change. Where Bhall wanted to raze and rebuild, Sucellus wanted to nurture and strengthen. Mulcarn also opposed Suceulls (though not to the degree of Bhall) because even the slow change of Sucellus was in opposition to his permanence.

And so on and so on. I guess I saw the god as primoral forces, they definitly have a mentality that guides them. But asking which is more powerful is like asking which is more powerful, the slow growth of a great forest or the forest fire that sweeps through it. In truth any aspect taken to its extreme (which every god would do) isn't healthy, which is why we have so many iterations of the story of fanatism on any front leading to ruin (or even ending up twisting around to opposite end of the spectrum).

So I dont know about which is the most powerful. I always kind of thought it would be Agares. He is brillant and terrible. In his own mind the whole experiment of creation is flawed and he wants to wipe it out. He doesn't want to kill the other angels (not that he is powerful enough to simply do so) he really wants to convert them to his service. Then rebuild the bridge to heaven and attack the One directly. He views the One as the keeper of power and their jailkeeper in the prison of creation, and Agares is ready to break free rather than fight for the crumbs. So he spends his centuries alernativly mopping in his deepest hell or trying to slowly whittle away at those that stand against him, trying to get them to Fall as Bhall has.

But yes, Arawn would have been powerful to. He didn't get involved in the gods war (Danalin and Sucellus didn't either) and has forever guarded the borders to the source of life and the underworld. He may be powerful, but he is the least likely to influence anything happening on creation.

He did have 2 separate Archangels under him though, Basium for Life and Gyra for Death.

I believe it has been state that the Gods/Angels' powers were not equal though, but I think it was Agares who was the strongest, not Arawn. Basium certainly thought that Succellus was a weakling, and Bhall is stated as being much stronger than her rival Mulcarn.

Basium and Gyra are twins (though not identical, Gyra is a girl).

They aren't identical twins but do they look at all similar?

If the gods are simply powerful embodiments of their aspects, how do they fall? If the original Esus was simply an embodiment of Trust, or some sort of deeper ideal, how did he(I think Esus is a he) become corrupted? Same for the others....

By deciding to go against The One and creation, they wind up basically acting to remove their aspect instead of instill it as I understand. Thus Trust becomes Betrayal and the like.

But by this definition, Mulcarn never fell. Because he still was working to bring Stasis to all of creation.

Was he? Mulcarn demonstrated his power quite clearly at that battle between the Luchiurp and Illianers when he came through, simply freezing everything solid. Is there a reason he allowed everyone else to continue existing, and not just snapping the world into an iceball forever? (Maybe he couldn't, but then you have to ask why he could at the battle and not elsewhere. It would have been neat to have some sort of "frozen solid" effect spread out of the Letum Frigis.)

Bear in mind, breaking the Compact and Falling though, are two seperate actions. I don't believe Bhall broke the Compact, even though she fell.

If the gods are simply powerful embodiments of their aspects, how do they fall? If the original Esus was simply an embodiment of Trust, or some sort of deeper ideal, how did he(I think Esus is a he) become corrupted? Same for the others....

Nah, they aren't simply embodiments. The essence of their instincts and powers are reflective of their sphere, but they do have free will and capacity for reason. Bhall did fall, did change her mind about the role of gods in creation, and her aspects changed to reflect this.

Mulcarn fell long ago, at the dawn of the world. In the age of Ice he didn't fall, he simply broke the compact because he saw an oppurtunity with the fall of Bhall. There was again some choice about it, though what he desired to do and how he was able to do it were aspects of winter/stasis.

But if Mulcarn fell, than his original aspect probably wasn't Stasis or the like, right? What would it have been then? (Rapid change seems out, since Bhall already has that covered)

I think it might have been Constancy or something.

His aspect was winter that brings peace, rest and relief, winter that allows to regain your powers. Not witner that kills all weaks and brings neverending stagnation.

Yes, his aspect was stasis in the sense of rest or sleep. Actually, I think he still embodies that aspect too, as was pointing out how important he is to all those mortals who choose to worship his enemies or allies instead of him. Overall, I think he is pretty much the least evil of the evil gods. I like him much more than Junil.

The thing with Junil and the Order is that most of the flavor text is about a corrupted Bannor version. The order is pretty fascist though. Rosiers pedia entry, talk about wierd. It seems like his fall was a consequence of someone divining his fall, or maybe thinking too much. Look at his paragraph of psychology about why people break oaths vs the other dude just saying weakness. It's recursive, selfcausing damnation!

What does Nantosuelta and Ceridwen represent? And why do they seem to be very opposed? Is Ceridwen the next-most evil of the evils?
And what is Oghmas role in the FFH history?

<--- Very confused mage

Yes, his aspect was stasis in the sense of rest or sleep. Actually, I think he still embodies that aspect too, as was pointing out how important he is to all those mortals who choose to worship his enemies or allies instead of him. Overall, I think he is pretty much the least evil of the evil gods. I like him much more than Junil.

Yeah, the big history doc thats in the mod makes a point of specifiying that the labels of good/neutral/evil are applied by men. In general the gods to fall into some camps (Nantosuelta and Sucellus are very close) and there is definitly a set of gods that agree with Agares that creation is a prison and they should retake (by force if nessesary) heaven to pursue their agenda. Now what that agenda would be differs from god to god.

Mulcarn was said to have the highest hell, meaning he is the least evil of the evil gods and his hell the most hospitalable (assuming you packed your thermal underwear) and his purpose is largely unchanged from what it was. He gets hates humanity because they are such a powerful agent of change and chaos. So in mens eyes he is evil, and he does side with Agares. But he would be as likely to fight Bhall and Camulos as he would be to fight some of the non-evil gods.

But the labeling of the gods of neutrality and good is a completly man made function. All of those gods would think that they are pursueing their divine purpose and wouldn't see any difference in the labels. the only real difference is some deal more directly with benifiting mankind and the others tasks really don't have much to do with humanity (Arawn being the best example). So from a divine perspective its better to say that their are only 2 groups of gods, those that have fallen and those that haven't.

Basium and Gyra are twins (though not identical, Gyra is a girl).

Do angels have parents? :hmm:

Do angels have parents? :hmm:

True angels are created by someone, but not by sexual reproduction.

Clay and spit, for example:D

True angels are created by someone, but not by sexual reproduction.

That's what I figured. Which makes the concept of a 'twin' strange.

Yeah, I'm probably applying too much logic here. :p

Created at the same time, by the same person ;]

Or from the same material.

on the subject of angels, why are basium and casiel portrayed without wings whereas all the others have wings (including hyborem and sabathiel)?

on the subject of angels, why are basium and casiel portrayed without wings whereas all the others have wings (including hyborem and sabathiel)?

Their features are just dependant on their creators whim. (Incidently Hyborem shouldn't really have wings, don't tell Ploep).

on the subject of angels, why are basium and casiel portrayed without wings whereas all the others have wings (including hyborem and sabathiel)?

No offense, but I REALLY couldn't imagine Cassiel with wings.

Anyway, I'd still like a bit mroe detail on Nantosuelta, Ceridwen, and Oghma. I'm a bit confused about what they represent, what their roles in history has been (Well, no Ceridwens, that's for sure), and who they oppose.

Yeah, until yesterday I didn't realise each god had their own aspect as well as sphere. If Mulcarn's is stasis and Bhaals is rapid change, what are the other god's aspects?

Yeah, until yesterday I didn't realise each god had their own aspect as well as sphere. If Mulcarn's is stasis and Bhaals is rapid change, what are the other god's aspects?

Sphere and aspect are the same thing. Its just more complex than being about the fixed noun that we use for the sphere name. So Aeron's "body" sphere is more than just the physical flesh but symbolizes passion, lust, physical sensation, etc. Winter means hibernation, sleep, rest, stasis. And so on.

Hopefully it makes some kind of sense, though it is sometimes difficult to draw out the characteristics of all the spheres.

So Aeron's "body" sphere is more than just the physical flesh but symbolizes passion, lust, physical sensation, etc

And sidar are supposed to lose those, but they have body mana?