Former Yugoslav Republics Mod (request) [Archive]

Shqype

Mar 01, 2008, 02:07 PM

To be honest I know nothing about modding CiV. So I have a little request.Could someone make me

Slovenian Empire (no idea for leaders,UU,UB)
Croatian Empire (King Tomislav as leader, no idea for UU,maybe Ustashi?, UB: Sabor (lower costs of mainstance)
Serbian Empire (Stefan Dusac, King Peter I, Slobodan Milosevic / Prince Lazar as leaders, UU: Chetnics/Partisans, UB: no idea)
Montenegrin Empire (King Nikola I as leader, no idea for UU and UB)
Macedonian Empire (I'm pro Greek in this case, but "FYROMian Empire" would suck xP) (no ideas.)

I'd love to collect your ideas about leaders,UUs, and UBs. And then, some good man to make me this Civs. I'd be very thankful :)

The best way would be to make it yourself. There are some really good tutorials for beginners that will teach you everything you need to know to get started. Just check in the Tutorials sub-forum.

Or, you could wait for me to get to my Yugoslav Wars mod, which would detail the breakup of Yugoslavia (which has just completed as a result of Kosova's declaration of independence).

The Serb UB could be "Ultranationalist Propaganda Center." The Montenegrin UU could be "Zhandarmarija" (Gendarme).

dedokole

Mar 13, 2008, 09:53 AM

Shqype

Mar 13, 2008, 10:34 AM

To Schype:
As a Macedonian, I can say I'm quite offended by the way that you represent my people as Bulgarians and my history as greek!!! Maybe you should think a little deeper before you write this kind of propaganda, especially considering how my country - Republika Makedonija provides most generous rights to the albanian minority and treats them with justice and respect. I think your mod is cool, but I don't like your attitude.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said that ... I never claimed the Slavic Macedonians have a Greek history. I said that the ancient Macedonians were a people that, although most likely having Illyrian origins, accepted Greek cultural characteristics and Hellenized themselves.

Regarding the Bulgarian influence, I'd say it's ignorant to deny any portion of a Bulgarian identity in Slavic Macedonia's history. Sure, today the Macedonians have a new identity different from that of the Bulgarians, but did this exist 600 years ago? It's similar to the Serbs and the Montenegrins... they're "brothers," but have grown apart, and the Montenegrins have their own identity.

Regarding the Albanians: They make up 1/3 of the country, I'd say the government has little choice but to give them rights, unlike in other areas of the Balkans (ahem, Montenegro) where they're treated like second-class citizens in their own land. You still have those in Macedonia that discriminate, including the authorities (I know of a 16 year old Albanian boy shot and killed by Macedonian police a year or so ago), but for the large part Albanians in Macedonia are treated fairly. I'm not sure what that's got to do with the Macedonian relation to Bulgarians, though.

To Voss:
I don't know anything about modding myself Voss, but I can give an idea for Macedonian leader:
Nobody belives in Slavic Alexander - he was Ancient Macedonian (not greek not ilirian), but a Macedonian hero who was undoubtedly Slavic and christian was Car Samoil who lived in the 10th and 11th century and made great conquests.

If you look up biographies and histories of Alexander the Great, you'll learn that he had Illyrian blood from both of his parents. Plus, the ancient Macedonians most likely had Illyrian origins. If you're really interested I can post sources, but a quick google search might yield some results for you.

In any case, I'm pretty sure Voss wants a Macedonian leader from the time of Yugoslavia. Do you have any information on that?

dedokole

Mar 13, 2008, 01:08 PM

OK, from the bootom-up:

1) Thanks for offering google links, but I learn about my nation's identity through books and lectures, not the internet where every moron can post just about anything

2) The albanians compose 21% of the population here according to official census. Yes it's a lot and I'm not underestimating that, but if you know any math that's 1/5 not 1/3.

3) Mentioning a kiled boy in this kind of dicussion is beyond any relevance (or reason).

4) I am a Macedonian. Stop talking about my Bulgarian identity!!! It's untrue, and as ignorant and insulting, as me talking about Albanians expansion through Kalashnikovs, multiplication, and crying on knees at the powerfull nations representatives. So stop it.

5) Ancient Macedonians - a separate people, made great conquests, got Hellenized - OK we agree on that one :)

You seem a reasonable man, a little missguided by propaganda, so I don't blame you, but PLEASE stop spreading lies about my country on the internet. We are nice to you, don't repay us this way. Our peoples used to be brothers as well, until the Turks came and Albanians here adopted Islam, and you know how sadly that effects dipomacy in Civ IV :)

P.S. Whether Kosovars deserve their own republic or not is a different topic, but I can't say I feel calm and relaxed that Macedonia is 100% safe from something similar to Serbias recent diasaster in the future :(

Shqype

Mar 13, 2008, 01:28 PM

OK, from the bootom-up:

1) Thanks for offering google links, but I learn about my nation's identity through books and lectures, not the internet where every moron can post just about anything
Same here, but the links I offer you are books and documents which have been posted online, not editable content like WIkipedia.

2) The albanians compose 21% of the population here according to official census. Yes it's a lot and I'm not underestimating that, but if you know any math that's 1/5 not 1/3.
Those numbers are understated by the government. They claim roughly 1/4 of the population, the Albanians claim as much as 40%. In reality the numbers are probably around 1/3.

3) Mentioning a kiled boy in this kind of dicussion is beyond any relevance (or reason).
It's just an illustration of the discrimination of the Macedonian authorities against the Albanians. You claim that the government treats them "with justice and respect." I'm saying that's not entirely true. The Macedonian government has also tried recently to build over Mother Teresa's birthplace, and to destroy Illyrian ruins for other construction. That's all in an effort to undermine the Albanian position and claim on that territory, and ALL Albanians feel strongly about those treasures we hold close to our hearts.

4) I am a Macedonian. Stop talking about my Bulgarian identity!!! It's untrue, and as ignorant and insulting, as me talking about Albanians expansion through Kalashnikovs, multiplication, and crying on knees at the powerfull nations representatives. So stop it.
One would argue that there's no such thing as a "Macedonian." The people I know that speak Macedonian claim it's just a dialect of Bulgarian. The present "Macedonia" was a key component of the Bulgarian Empires. From what I've read and heard, the Macedonians branched off from the Bulgarians to create their own identity, but they still had Bulgarian roots. One of the people I've spoken to about this is Bulgarian, so one might argue that she's biased, but one would also argue that you are also biased. I challenge you to convince me otherwise: I'd be interested in learning more information about the Macedonian Slavs, although everything I've encountered thus far points to their Bulgarian origins.

And, it's fine that Macedonians have Bulgarian origins; they just created their own identity through mingling with the Serbs.

PLEASE stop spreading lies about my country on the internet.
I'm not spreading any lies about your country, just saying what I learned through reading and speaking with people more knowledgable than I on the subject. If you have information that proves otherwise, I'm willing to hear it.

Our peoples used to be brothers as well, until the Turks came and Albanians here adopted Islam, and you know how sadly that effects dipomacy in Civ IV :)
What is the basis for saying that Albanians and Slavs living in Macedonia used to be brothers? That was never the case.

As far as Albanian adopting Islam, sure, it's regrettable that roughly 2/3 of the population was coerced into accepting that religion (to escape economic discrimination and other harsh things imposed by the Turks), but it's unfair to use that as a basis for your argument. Mother Teresa's father was poisoned by Macedonian Slavs last century for being an Albanian patriot. How do you factor the Islamic argument into that one? They were a patriotic Albanian Catholic family.

P.S. Whether Kosovars deserve their own republic or not is a different topic, but I can't say I feel calm and relaxed that Macedonia is 100% safe from something similar to Serbias recent diasaster in the future :(
To claim that what "happened to Serbia" was a disaster is effectively stating your opinion that Kosova should not be independent. Macedonians tend to support their Serb brothers regarding Kosova, but they can't provide a logical and coherent argument as to why Kosova should remain subjected to brutal Serb rule.

The Albanians supported the disintegration of Yugoslavia. If you're so determined to keep Yugoslavia together by forcing Kosova to remain, then why were the Macedonian Slavs so eager to leave the country? Why didn't Macedonia remain with Serbia?

dedokole

Mar 13, 2008, 03:23 PM

And, it's fine that Macedonians have Bulgarian origins; they just created their own identity through mingling with the Serbs.

You know, if you said this to my face, I'd probably just punch you, and put an end to this pointless discussion.

I asked you to stop spreading lies - you continue to spread them.
I say our peoples used to and still live in good relations - you try to convince me otherwise.

I guess I was wrong saying you are a reasonable person, so I'm no longer interested in anything you have to say and I sure have no intentions of teaching you history.

I'll play some Civ4, instead.

esnaz

Mar 13, 2008, 03:33 PM

For the Serbian civilization I made, I used the Hambar as the UB as a replacement for the granary. And this is the wrong forum for this type of thing. :nono:

Shqype

Mar 13, 2008, 05:21 PM

You know, if you said this to my face, I'd probably just punch you, and put an end to this pointless discussion.

I asked you to stop spreading lies - you continue to spread them.
I say our peoples used to and still live in good relations - you try to convince me otherwise.

I guess I was wrong saying you are a reasonable person, so I'm no longer interested in anything you have to say and I sure have no intentions of teaching you history.

I'll play some Civ4, instead.

You would choose to resort to barbarism because you have nothing better to say, or any way to back up your claims?

That's the sign of an ultranationalist that is going on constructed myth as opposed to historical accuracy.

The Albanian-inhabited part of Macedonia was something contested by the Bulgarians in the second half of the 19th century. I can understand that somehow a separate Macedonian identity arose from those Bulgarian roots, and that's fine. But to deny any relation because of relatively recently created nationalism is silly. It's almost like Croats and Serbs changing a few words to claim they speak different languages, which they did for nationalistic purposes after the breakup of Yugoslavia, although they both speak the same language: Serbo-Croatian.

I said I was willing to hear what you had to say about the origins of a Macedonian identity, because although everything I've seen up to this point indicates Bulgarian origins, I realize there are usually two sides to every story. But you refuse, and instead make threats: no proof to back up your claims?

dedokole

Mar 13, 2008, 05:29 PM

Yes I'm a barbarian, thanks for opening my eyes Shqype. A barbarian with smarter things to do...

http://www.ecureme.com/especial/obgyn/Health_benefits_of_sex.asp

Vucjak

Mar 14, 2008, 02:33 AM

Ok,I understand that the history hurts, especially when the history of your nation is full of betrayal, cowardliness and barbarism. So, I totally understand why would someone who descend from such a nation, would try to deny the greatness of others. It's jealousy, and people have the right to be jealous. Especially you, Shiptar, I understand it's painful for you, to find the greatness in your artificial nation, and country. Stop claiming the Illyrian heritage. If you know anything, than you would know, Illyria covered the territory of the Roman province Dalmatia. So, the northern part of todays Albania is just a minor part of that territory. I know many of the Balkan's nations have much to say about their Illyrian heritage. Especially Croats. The scientific fact is that Illyrian roots are found in 75% of the people in the whole region of Former Yugoslavia.

But, I wouldn't teach you about your nation. I don't have the right for that, cause even though I know many facts about your country and nation, I don't know all of them. But, you, Shiptar, don't have the right to say a thing about my country and nation, since you obviously don't know anything about it.

I'm a men of science, and even though this things tend to hurt, and I find most of your words very insulting, to me personally, and to my country and nation, I need just a single fact to prove the Macedonian identity. The genetic researches are proving that none of the Balkan's nations have the same genetic architecture with the Macedonians. So, you may say whatever you want, but that fact proves, the Macedonians haven't "branched" from anyone. Unlike any of the Balkan's nations, the Macedonians are autochthonous nation on the Balkans. The Bulgarians have Asian roots. The Greeks have African roots, The Serbs have Slavic roots. How could someone with genuine genetic code, branched from someone who came to this territory sometime in the past???

There is an old saying, in front of the facts, even the Gods keep silent.

We have nothing in common with the Bulgarians. The fact they claim, that the Macedonian language is a dialect of the Bulgarian, is just a propaganda. It is true, there is over a million people in the eastern part of Bulgaria who are declaring themselves as Macedonians, and are speaking the same language as I am, but that's just because it is a region which is part of the ethnic territory of Macedonia. That region was stolen from us in the Bucharest agreement. Just as the northern part of Greece was stolen from us with that same agreement. There are people in Greece, hundreds of thousands, even though millions were expatriated and chased away, who live in Greece, and even today are speaking the same language as I'm speaking. What are they, Greeks??? Or, maybe I'm Greek?

And, Shiptar, since you mentioned some Albanian boy killed by the Macedonian police, I would like to say few words about that, too. The Macedonian police and army, are chasing and sometimes killing the Albanian terrorists, killers, drug smugglers. So, if that boy was really killed by the Macedonian police, than I have no sorrow for him. I, personally have seen 10-12 years old Albanian kids with Kalashnikovs. Is that normal, dude???

But, also, I cannot forget the picture, of the Macedonian workers, civilians, who were captured during the 2001 war by the Albanian terrorists, and were raped by "the fighters for human rights" who after that have tattooed their names with knives on the backs of the workers. Or the two innocent people, also workers, who were blown out in the hotel they were working in.

I'm proud to have the same genes as the Great Aleksandar had, as the Great Czar Samuil had, as Goce Delcev and all of the Macedonian fighters against the Ottoman slavery had, as all of the Macedonian anti-Nazi fighters had. And you, oh yes, you always were on the wrong side of history. I can't even imagine how much that hurts you.

Shqype

Mar 14, 2008, 09:19 PM

ROFL!

You're really delusional. Seems like you've been getting all your information from "Macedonian" ultranationalists ;)

Keep believing that you, as a Slav, have the same roots as the pre-Slavic Alexander the Great, since it makes you feel better. :lol:

Shqype

Mar 14, 2008, 09:47 PM

Just some basic info anyone can find online about FYR Macedonia:
In the late 6th century AD, Byzantine control over the area disintegrated, and the region was invaded by a succession of Slavic tribes from the north, pushing out some existing populations, while many others were assimilated. These included Greek, Latin, Illyrian and Thracian-speaking inhabitants in the regions of today's Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria. The Slavic invaders of Byzantine Macedonia organised themselves in autonomous rural societies called by the Greeks "Σκλαβινίαι" (Sklaviniai). They laid various sieges to Byzantine lands, conquering virtually all of Greece except for some major cities such as Thessaloniki and Athens. They continued to occupy the entire Balkans, including all of Macedonia, Thrace, Moesia, and even most of Greece proper.[10] The Byzantine emperors would aim to Hellenise and incorporate the Sklaviniai into the socio-economic rule of Byzantium. While Byzantine achieved this with the Slavs of the Thracian theme, the emperors had to resort to military expeditions to pacify the Sklaviniai of Macedonia, often repeatedly. These expeditions reached their peak with Justinian II, who is said to have removed as many as 200,000 from Macedonia to central Anatolia, forcing them to pay tribute and serve in the imperial army.[10] Whilst many of the Slavs in Macedonia had to acknowledge Byzantine authority, the majority remained ethnically independent, and continued to form the demographic majority in the region as a whole. With the growth of the First Bulgarian Empire, all these regions and their people were incorporated into the empire, cementing the Slavic character of the entire region.

The Slavic tribes in today's region of Republic of Macedonia (then part of the medieval state of Bulgaria) accepted Christianity as their own religion around the 9th century, during the reign of prince Boris I of Bulgaria. The creators of the Glagolitic alphabet, the Byzantine Greek monks Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius, under the guidance of the Patriarchate at Constantinople, were promoters of Christianity and initiated Slavic literacy among the Slavic people. They were based in Thessaloniki, where Slavic was spoken universally as a second language after Greek. Their work was accepted in early medieval Bulgaria and continued by St. Clement of Ohrid, creator of Cyrillic alphabet and St. Naum of Ohrid as founders of the Ohrid Literary School. Emperor Basil II defeated the armies of Tsar Samuil of Bulgaria and by 1018 the region had been mostly subjugated by the Byzantines.

The Byzantines resumed full control of the Balkans by the early 11th century, but by the late 12th century Byzantine decline brought about the birth of the Second Bulgarian Empire. The empire soon met with political difficulties, and in 13th century the wider geographical Macedonia region fell once again under Byzantine control. In the 14th century, it became part of the Serbian Empire, who saw themselves as liberators of Slavic kin from the despotism of Byzantine, and culture and Christianity flourished once again. Skopje became the capital of Czar Stefan Dusan's empire.

Shqype

Mar 14, 2008, 10:02 PM

Regarding hostility between Macedonians and Bulgarians:

The Republic of Macedonia maintains uneven relations with the Republic of Bulgaria. Bulgaria was the first country to recognise Macedonian independence and the republic under its constitutional name. Many Macedonian students matriculate in Bulgarian universities. Bulgaria supports the Macedonian bid to enter the EU and NATO. It also donated a large amount of tanks, artillery and other materials to the Macedonian army.

According to Bulgarian media and international minority rights NGOs, there have been repeated cases of anti-Bulgarian violence towards citizens with a Bulgarian national background and desecrations [22]. A number of independent international organisations maintain that Macedonia is actively conducting propaganda against Bulgaria (the police being indifferent in this respect), and that Skopje maintains a harsh attitude towards its citizens with a Bulgarian background.[23]

Issues have also been raised over appropriation and falsification of Bulgarian history by authors with Macedonian nationalistic agenda, and the treatment in the Republic of Macedonia of people espousing a Bulgarian national identity. The organization of the Bulgarian minority in the Republic of Macedonia Radko for example (which was later banned by the Macedonian Constitutional Court in violation of International Treaties in this respect) had been publicly harassed after they claimed that there is no Macedonian ethnicity today, and the perpetrators were acclaimed as heroes by the media. [24] In the Republic of Macedonia, there is a persistent intimidation and beating of people with a Bulgarian ethnic identity, as it is reported by minority rights NGOs [25]

Bulgaria is also concerned at repeated territorial claims against it, backed by the Skopje authorities; for instance, according to the new Macedonian encyclopaedia (funded by the Ministry of Culture), some parts of Bulgaria are represented in Macedonia. [26]

Another point of contention in the relationship between the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria is the latter's refusal to recognise the existence of a separate Macedonian ethnicity, instead considering Macedonians to be Bulgarians and their language as a regional "norm" based on local Bulgarian dialects [27]. The so-called "language dispute", which started in 1993 and was effectively impeding diplomatic relations, was resolved in 1999 when the two governments adopted the formula "the official language in the Republic of Macedonia, and the official language in Bulgaria" in their bilateral agreements where they use the Macedonian and Bulgarian languages.[citation needed]

Similarly, the Bulgarian Constitutional Court has banned the political party of the ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria UMO Ilinden-Pirin as separatist; this measure was found not to be "proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued" on October 20, 2005 by the European Court of Human Rights.

dedokole

Mar 15, 2008, 05:10 PM

You troubled troubled man....

You actually think you know more about Macedonia's history by citing Wikipedia articles than me who lives here. I'm especialy glad for that last one - so obviously written by a sick Bulgarian nationalist - it realy made my day :)))) Your naivity and stubborn stupidity put me in high spirits.

But since you poor boring man have no smarter business to do, I'll take pity on you, and give you something to ponder on. Imagine this situation:

My ancestors were Bulgarians, lived together with their eastern compatriots, had stong family and religious and economic ties with their Bulgarian brothers all across Bulgaria, fought war, and died for the Bulgarian Empire, endured HALF MILLENNIUM of tukish violence and greek propaganda, and then one sunny day here come the Serbian ocupators and say "you aren't Bulgarians" - and within a decade my poor gullible ancestors forget all their history and suddenly start beliving they aren't Bulgarians!!!!!

DO YOU GET THE ABSURDITY ?????

If you don't then it's a very sad state of affairs Shqype.......

Shqype

Mar 15, 2008, 06:02 PM

Wikipedia is by no means a scholarly credible source; but it's usually a good place to get a general idea about something.

The only reason I stated it is because it validated what I was talking about: it shows that there is dialogue about the things that I said, and the Slavic history about Macedonia is again verified there (which you'll find to be true in all scholarly works you read).

You use fairly eloquent language to make it look like you know what you're talking about, but you don't give any facts or evidence otherwise to support your claim. You call me naive, stubborn, and stupid without any legitimate reason to do so. If I'm wrong, prove me wrong. Give me legitimate information that indicates otherwise.

Right now it looks as if your concept of identity today is shaping your beliefs about the past of Slavic Macedonia. Instead of looking at it from a fair, historical perspective, you look at it from the eyes of a Slav living in Macedonia, having to contend with Bulgarians telling you that you're really Bulgarian and there's no such thing as a Macedonian.

I can understand why that would irritate you, but Macedonians and Bulgarians are both Slavic people, just like the Serbs. Your analysis of history up until you stated that you guys "fought and died for the Bulgarian Empire" is correct; from there on it's skewed and made to be ridiculous so as to remove credibility from the first half that is really accurate. On that same token I didn't claim the Slavic Macedonians considered themselves as separate from the Bulgarians just because of the Serbs, but I don't think you can deny that throughout history the Serbs and Slavs living in Macedonia mixed and shared a common cultural heritage.

I just find it really silly that a group of people try to claim to be related to an ancient group of people that they really had no relation with just to underscore their new identity from their "parent nation" who belong to the same ethnic and linguistic group.

dedokole

Mar 16, 2008, 01:56 PM

Bla-bla-bla

You tire me man.

Shqype

Mar 16, 2008, 02:58 PM

That's one way to admit defeat ...

dedokole

Mar 16, 2008, 03:54 PM

No it's a way of saying I've seen tens of discussions on forums, where one side quotes some sources, and the other group says those are incorrect, and quotes others... and on and on and on that goes.....
Like a stubborn mule you push on thinking I'll start quoting history books, and sending you links. By doing that, I'll just provoke you to go and find more anti-macedonian propaganda.

Do you think that I believe I can change anything in your indoctrinated head?
Actualy, I thought I could - by reaching out to your reason and logic, but I guess you are already beyond that place. :(

No Shype, saying "You tire me" that's one way of saying you bore me to tears- that's all. Get a life man.

Shqype

Mar 16, 2008, 04:06 PM

Sources that prove that Slavic Macedonians of today are NOT Ancient Macedonians of a time before the Slavs even came into the Balkans constitutes "anti-Macedonian propaganda?" Get real man.

The thing is though that you're the only one that is indoctrinated. I never had anyone tell me anything about Macedonians until I started reading about them and asking questions for myself: different than you, as a Slav living in Macedonia, taught myths by your state. That to me is indoctrination, and being taught something despite the facts dictating otherwise.

I am a reasonable and logical man, but the things that some Slavic Macedonians claim are far from reasonable and logical.

Plus, dedokole, my username is Shqype. Don't "pull a Serb" and start omitting the "q" as a derogatory term. Get a life man.

dedokole

Mar 16, 2008, 04:30 PM

Yeah, "Shype" was a typing error. Sorry.
Anyway, in your last two posts I realize you've become more rational:

... but Macedonians and Bulgarians are both Slavic people, just like the Serbs....

Macedonians, Bulgarians and Serbs - very nice; three SEPARATE nations.

...I don't think you can deny that throughout history the Serbs and Slavs living in Macedonia mixed and shared a common cultural heritage...

Also true. I've never denied my slavic heritage.

Get a life man.

And you've even started using my expressions :) Maybe there's still hope for you?

Huayna Capac357

Mar 16, 2008, 04:49 PM

This is a request for a Yugoslavia mod, not a Macedonia argument. Give this poor poster some directions, etc. and not boring, long, unreadable, pointless, wasteful arguments.

Shqype

Mar 16, 2008, 05:22 PM

Macedonians, Bulgarians and Serbs - very nice; three SEPARATE nations.
They all have their distinct identities, which I never denied. But the Serbs and Bulgarians are more different than the Macedonians and Bulgarians. And I was telling you that everything I've come across has indicated a common ancestry, aside from all 3 both belonging to the same Slavic ethnic group.

Also true. I've never denied my slavic heritage.
Not you, but plenty of Macedonians have. Even the one that posted earlier, Vucjak, did so. That's clearly untrue.

And you've even started using my expressions :) Maybe there's still hope for you?

I purposely used your own words against you. "Get a life" can be pretty childish to use ... just giving you a taste of your own medicine. ;)

Huayna Capac357

Mar 16, 2008, 07:01 PM

They all have their distinct identities, which I never denied. But the Serbs and Bulgarians are more different than the Macedonians and Bulgarians. And I was telling you that everything I've come across has indicated a common ancestry, aside from all 3 both belonging to the same Slavic ethnic group.

Not you, but plenty of Macedonians have. Even the one that posted earlier, Vucjak, did so. That's clearly untrue.

I purposely used your own words against you. "Get a life" can be pretty childish to use ... just giving you a taste of your own medicine. ;)

OK. Seriously. STOP!!!!!!!!!!

Shqype

Mar 16, 2008, 07:06 PM

As you can see Yugoslavia was one dysfunctional "family." :lol:

Vucjak

Mar 16, 2008, 10:18 PM

It's not important what I, you or anyone will say, but it's important what the facts are saying.

As I said before, and it's based on scientific facts, not somebody's understanding of the history, the genetic code of the Macedonians is unique, unlike the other Balkan nations, especially Bulgarians. That's why it's impossible to talk about common ancestor. The ancestors of the Bulgarians are Tatars from Asia. The modern Macedonians don't have such genes. Unless Tatars have mastered teleportation and gene modification, it's impossible to relate them with the Macedonians.

The HLA typisation of the DNA is showing undoubted relation between the modern and the antique Macedonians. So, when we are talking about origin, in genetic sense, it's absolutely clear. The antique Macedonians weren't victims of nuclear explosion, or alien abduction, as far as I know. The people continued to live on the same territory, even after the fall of the Macedonian Empire. Since, the modern Greeks carry sub-Saharan genes, the Bulgarians carry Asian genes, and the modern Macedonians carry the same genes as the antique Macedonians, can you do the math??? But, after reading your previous posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you relate us with the Incas or Zulu.

dedokole

Mar 17, 2008, 05:06 AM

I purposely used your own words against you. "Get a life" can be pretty childish to use ... just giving you a taste of your own medicine. ;)

OK. Seriously. STOP!!!!!!!!!!

I'm laughing my pants off here... Poor Huayana.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gwil

Mar 18, 2008, 12:16 PM

As you can see Yugoslavia was one dysfunctional "family." :lol:

That's not necessarily true. Go look at how many people happily described themselves "Yugoslav" (and still do) even when the country was thrown into civil war. I'm not denying there was animosity in the 80s and even in Tito's times, but the Yugoslav "identity" is/was stronger than you may think.

As it happens, regarding the requested civilizations, I noted you omitted BiH. I understand it's a 3 way split between Serbs/Croats/Bosnjaks, but surely one of these leaders/nations has to represent the Muslims who were resident in Yugoslavia? It might be a troubling point for some camps, but they lived there, and to ignore them would be to deny the history of Ottoman rule.

JEELEN

Mar 18, 2008, 02:39 PM

First I saw this mod proposition I knew it spelled trouble. I suggest discussing topic, not politics.

Any progress on the mod?:confused:

dedokole

Mar 19, 2008, 07:39 AM

Shqype

Mar 19, 2008, 09:43 AM

But JEELEN, you seem unfamiliar with Shqype's life work. :lol:

Take a look at any thread remotely connected to the Balkans. He just can't help turning it into a boring unproductive political dispute (spiced-up with a healty dose of pity for the Albanians).

Honest. Just look.

It is what it is. I understand that you've been indoctrinated your whole life by the Macedonian government, beginning from when it was unified with the Serbs, but there still may be hope for you yet.

dedokole

Mar 19, 2008, 09:54 AM

.... but there still may be hope for you yet.

Stop using my words. Think of your own original vocabulary. :cool:

Huayna Capac357

Mar 19, 2008, 08:02 PM

JEELEN

Mar 19, 2008, 10:49 PM

The only reason why I disapprove of, say, the CSA is because they had slavery, which is against Christianity (Though Paul said it wasn't, but who listens to Paul anyway).

Actually, quite a lot of people do - for instance, those of protestant denomination.;)

Shqype

Mar 20, 2008, 12:13 AM

Why can't you Kosovars and Serbs just get along? If the Serbs say they're Christians, doesn't that mean you should just love each other, be humble, and make peace? I, an American, would not care if a part of the US seceded. In fact, it would kinda be cool or interesting. The only reason why I disapprove of, say, the CSA is because they had slavery, which is against Christianity (Though Paul said it wasn't, but who listens to Paul anyway).

The Holy Serbian Orthodox Church is far from Christianity. As a Christian, I am gravely offended by it: priests blessing Serbian paramilitaries and telling them "go cleanse." The Patriarch of the Serbian Church in Kosove issued a statement that Serbs must fight for Kosova, and buy weapons from Russia in order to do so. As Edith Durham, a British nurse and Balkan traveler during the early 1900s wrote in her book "Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle", "As for the Balkan Slav and his vaunted Christianity, it seems to me all civilization should rise up and restrain him from further brutality."

SusFerox

Mar 20, 2008, 05:47 AM

(...)Croatian Empire (King Tomislav as leader, no idea for UU,maybe Ustashi?, UB: Sabor (lower costs of mainstance)
(...)

Back on-topic:

As leaders, apart from King Tomislav, one could consider Josip Broz Tito (yes, I am aware that we share the guy with other former Yugoslavs), King Petar Krešimir IV (Kresimir the Fourth), Kraljica (Queen) Jelena and President Franjo Tuđman (Tudjman). Not that I am especially fond of the last mentioned guy, but one can not overlook that he played a significant part in recent Croatian history...

UU: please, please, pretty please with cherry on top - DO NOT make Ustaše (Ustashas) unique unit. They were close allies to the Third Reich during World War II, committed attrocities, passed and enforced racial laws - even in its Constitution, the Republic of Croatia is avoiding to be connected with Ustahsas...

As UU, I propose Domagojeve strijelce (Duke Domagoj's Archers), Neretljanske gusare (Pirates/Buccaneers from Neretva) - instead of gallley(?), Trenkove pandure (Baron Trenk's Pandurs) - instead of Musketeers(?) and Gardijske brigade instead of Mechanized Infantry.

As UB, instead of Sabor (The Parliament in Croatia) (which should be a national wonder - not to put one Sabor per town/city), I propose ... that someone else figures it out. ;)

SF

dedokole

Mar 20, 2008, 08:38 AM

Yes, of course not Ustashs.

BTW I expect to have a lot more free time after april, so if nobody starts doing this mod by then I'd get into it.

I haven't done any mods, but I have programmed a few games in c++, so how hard could it be.

SusFerox

Mar 20, 2008, 08:54 AM

Good news!

Ever since AnimaCroatorum stopped developing his Croatian mod, I've been waiting for someone to show initiative... (yes, I am lazy)

I am eagerly awaiting this mod...

SF

Voss Parck

Mar 24, 2008, 06:04 AM

To be honest, I don't "need" a Macedonian leader from Yugoslav times. I have little knowledge about history of this country, so I don't have any idea even for UB and UU. So please, give futher ideas ;).
I have pretty hard times with Slovenia as well. This country was never independent..
About Bosnia- I was thinking about Bosnian Infrantry from A-H times (they've had own uniforms and "status"). Really NO IDEA for leader and UB.
Montenegro- maybe king Nikola I?

SusFerox

Mar 25, 2008, 06:36 AM

To be honest, I don't "need" a Macedonian leader from Yugoslav times. I have little knowledge about history of this country, so I don't have any idea even for UB and UU. So please, give futher ideas ;).

As dedokole pointed out, a Macedonian leader could be Samuilo.

I have pretty hard times with Slovenia as well. This country was never independent..

One could consider Milan Kučan as the leader, as well as Janez Drnovšek, or even Primož Trubar or France Prešern. (Please, do not get mad if you're a Slovenian - my knowledge on great people in Slovenian history is rather ... slim, so please, place your suggestions!)
As for the UU and UB, someone from Slovenia would be much better than me...

About Bosnia- I was thinking about Bosnian Infrantry from A-H times (they've had own uniforms and "status"). Really NO IDEA for leader and UB.

UB - burekdžinica (well, this is a joke fully understandable only to folks originating from former Yugoslavia :p )...
Ok, for real this time:
UU - Armija BiH (B&H Army) - Bosnian (or Bosniac) infantry from recent war (1992 - 1995)
Leader - King Tvrtko I, King Stjepan Tomašević, Queen Katarina Kosača-Kotromanić, President Alija Izetbegović

Montenegro- maybe king Nikola I?

Leader - Vladika Petar II. Petrović Njegoš (Vladika means something like a bishop, but also with head-of-state powers - if someone knows a better translation, please provide!), King Nikola I. Petrović Njegoš, Queen Milena Vukotić (yes, I know it's a looooong shot...), Prime Minister Milo Đukanović... (again, folks from Montenegro are much, much better than me in this - please, contribute!)

SF