It seems to me that a lot of people consider the Great Library to be a must have wonder. Is it really worth it though?

Obviously it is a better investment if you have marble or are Industrious. It's also better if you have the Pyramids and are running Representation. If you're in a food poor/production city, then it might make sense as well because you can't support enough specialists without crippling city growth.

But if none of those situations apply to you, then consider this alternative. Don't bother even trying to build the Great Library. Pick a food rich city, whip a library under Hereditary Rule, and hire two scientists.

Pros:

-You don't have to build the Great Library, or even tech past writing. (monarchy isn't actually a requirement, but Hereditary Rule means that you can keep the scientists happy and working.)

-Instead you can use the hammers saved for extra units or buildings or even to build Research if you have Alphabet.

-You'll get your Great Scientist for an Academy much sooner if you start going for him after writing than if you wait for Literature. Beakers today are worth more than beakers next Tuesday.

-Never lose the wonder race.

-350 Hammers instead of the Great Library can build 8 Catapults, which can capture it from your neighbor.

Cons:

-You lose two extra GPPs and culture from the Great Library.

-You will be two closer to the unhealthiness cap because the specialists you hire aren't free from food and health maintenance.

-If you don't want to run Caste sytem, then the Great Library is one of the only ways to get more than two scientists in a city, prior to Astronomy.

Obviously, two free scientists would be nothing to sneeze at, if they were actually free. But are you better off just dedicating 4 food for two specialists for eternity than investing 350 hammers up front?

Great Library is not for the science as much as GPP . If you are going for a early liberalism you need

1 GS -academy
1 GS - Philosophy
1 GS - Education
1 GS - (Situationally) Liberalism this allows an early libearlism

Also Literature unlocks National Epic , Heroic Epic both crucial National Wonders . Aesthetics is a good trading technology as well .

NE+Glib+2 library scientists give you a GPP of 2*(1+2+4*3)=30 GPP

Of course it is not must have but quite nice to have and also as a deny wonder .

Alternative to Glib is go for early Code of Laws for caste system . You have to run 3 more scientists to equal GLib GPP rate .

Also, what makes you think people don't do both of your suggestions? More often than not, if capable, as soon as I learn Writing and build up a library in the target city, I begin running specialists. Then, later on if I'm able, I'll definitely build the Great Library.

So - Why do one or the other? Why would you assume people wait for literature in the first place? It's very easy to accomplish both (Starting specialists with Libraries, and building the GL).

So to this;

Obviously, two free scientists would be nothing to sneeze at, if they were actually free. But are you better off just dedicating 4 food for two specialists for eternity than investing 350 hammers up front?

Doing both sounds like the best option - Four scientists instead of two.

I don't see why you can't build GL and run two scientists when you hit writing. It makes for lots of :gp:... Plus consider this:

A one-time investment of 350 :hammers: before modifiers (280 with forge, 237 with forge and OR, 175 with forge, OR and Ind, 117 with forge, OR, Ind and Marble) can get you 8:gp: towards greatscientist and atleast 6 beakers per turn until scientific method.

I doubt you can find a better :hammers:/:science: rate than this, apart from building a settler.

I don't consider any of the Wonders must-haves but the GL is one of the more useful and remains so in most games where some of the other wonders are more useful on some map types or for certain types of victory.

I'm with druidravi on this - the real benefit of the Great Library is being able to get a huge pool of Great Scientist specialized great person points.

You get 2 GPP from the Great Library itself and 3 for each scientist.
That's 8 GPP from the Great Library and 6 more from two scientists you run on your own. That's 14 scientist GPP as opposed to six. It makes a huge difference when you're trying to get early Great People so you can bulb towards Liberalism.

That advantage gets multiplied even futher if/when you bulb Philosophy early and switch to Pacifism. That in turn gets you to Liberalism even sooner.

It's a case of "If doing X is good, getting there even sooner is better." We may tend to overvalue the benefit of getting to Liberalism extra early, but the Great Library is simply one of the best ways, if not the best, to get there as quickly as possible.

I am not sure where you got the "Must Have" part - it's a nice wonder to have, which i will choose before many others, if having the time to build a wonder. But nothing it the game is "Must have" or "Can't live without"But if none of those situations apply to you, then consider this alternative. Don't bother even trying to build the Great Library. Pick a food rich city, whip a library under Hereditary Rule, and hire two scientists.Sounds kind of 2 GL free Scientists OR two Library Scientists, while it is in fact a AND. 14 Clean Scientist GPP or 30 With slight Artist pollution from NE is quite something.You'll get your Great Scientist for an Academy much sooner if you start going for him after writing than if you wait for Literature. Beakers today are worth more than beakers next Tuesday.You should not wait for literature, to start running your Library Scientists to make Akademy early.
But you can still pop and put to a good use a few GS after that...

Generally the GL, NE, and a pair of scientists from a regular library is alot of GPs which can be used to bulb along to a tremendous tech edge. Situational and not be a make or break wonder, but very useful. Also very improtant for a Philosophical leader.

Not many other wonders can effect the game as much, but there are some.

The Great Lighthouse/Colossus combo. Especially forwater heavy boards and financial leaders.

The Great Wall combined with Imperilistic trait for war mongering on high land areas.

Pyramids with an early SE game.

Mausoleum and Taj for ALOT of turns of GA, especially if you pop alot of GPs to run several GAs in a row.

Obviously it is a better investment if you have marble or are Industrious. It's also better if you have the Pyramids and are running Representation. If you're in a food poor/production city, then it might make sense as well because you can't support enough specialists without crippling city growth.



Counter intuitive to your argument. A main contention for you is that it's a misuse of expensive hammers if you have the food and means to simply run 2 specialists. So, then, by that logic, it's an extreme misuse of expensive hammers if you lack the food or production.

I argue that the Great Library is only extremely useful when your first rule applies: running an SE, running representation, and or Industrious or access to stone.

Food poor cities should concentrate on armies and cottaging to secure a good economy and take over an enemy capital or food rich city to serve as their GP farm. In this case the GL makes no sense.

So basically... if you're playing a Philosophical civ, go for the Great Library, build a Library, get two scientist specialists, build the National Epic, bulb Philosophy as soon as possible, switch to Pacifism, and you'll be pumping out Great Scientists faster than you can find uses for them... have to try all that some day :goodjob:

Obviously it's not the case where you can either build the Great Library or hire scientists - oftentimes it makes sense to do both. Though I've only recently begun to focus on getting an Academy built asap after Writing, so in the past waiting for the GL was something of a default option.

So, then, by that logic, it's an extreme misuse of expensive hammers if you lack the food or production.

Looks like I wasn't clear. I meant it makes sense if you are hammer rich but food poor. If your city is both food poor and production poor, then you should probably spend more effort dotmapping!

One of the things that's unique about the GL is that it is City Dependent, most other wonders it doesn't matter which city it is in, wheras the GL is key to a GScientist Farm (+8 GS Points... and it needs a Library anyways)

That characteristic makes it similar to the Oracle in that it is better to build it than to capture (the oracle being the extreme case of nearly worthless to capture)

The real "Alternative" to the Great Library is Caste System

so here are the options

1. 4 Excess food, Library + GLib + Nat Epic = 4 Scientists

2. 8 Excess food, Library +Nat. Epic + Caste System = 4 Scientists

Is the proper comparison for a Great Scientist City

So
#1 requires a decent amount of Minerals
#2 requires Caste System and Extra food

Both Require Literature

If you are Running a SE then # 2 is probably better
If you are Running a Slave/CE then #1 is probably better (especially if your GP farm has some Hammer potential)

I forgot to add the benefit of combining GL and NE, which just increases the synergy in this path.

If you do want a lot of Great Scientists and you're food poor, it's definitely a very good way to go about it. But that raises the question that I think is at the root of all this - why are Great Scientists valuable?

That's what drives the value of the Great Library up, and it's not dependent on how much food or how many hammers your civ has. It's a way of breaking those rules, which is probably why powergamers are so drawn to it.

I think you are looking at GL as replacement for 2 scientist specialists from library. In fact the 2 GL's scientist are additional scientists you won't need to support (i.e. dont need :food: to create and maintain, hence free).


...
-350 Hammers instead of the Great Library can build 8 Catapults, which can capture it from your neighbor.


To maximize its used, placement of GL matters (you want it in food heavy city to maximize number of total specialists). Sure you can take it from AI, but more than likely you won't be able to maximize the benefit. Thus, this is the only wonder that I always build.



...
-You will be two closer to the unhealthiness cap because the specialists you hire aren't free from food and health maintenance.
...
Obviously, two free scientists would be nothing to sneeze at, if they were actually free. But are you better off just dedicating 4 food for two specialists for eternity than investing 350 hammers up front?

Give me 350:hammers: upfront anytime. Also, just as you point out, the 2 free specialist will NEVER need :food: and :culture: to maintain. Think of it like trading :hammers: for :food: & happyness needed to create and maintain the 2 specialists.

I was a big fan of this thing, but not really anymore. If you don't have marble or are ind it is very expensive, usually only my bureaucracy powered capital can build it in any decent amount of time. That means it gets mixed in with the priest points from the oracle or stone henge (not always, but sometimes). So if you built those two wonders, then it's probably not worth it to built, you'll end up with a great priest anyway. if you didn't build those 2, then it might be worth it anyway.

You need to switch to philosophy for it to be any good. This alone is a big drawback. At this point in the game I'm still working on building infrastructure or building troops. so I want OR or Theo.

Usually in my timing the scientists come too late to bulb my way to liberalism, especially if i got some priests from oracle/stone hence. By the time i get it built and running i usually already have philo and paper self researched by the time i get my first GS, at most i could bulb education, but by then i decide that building an academy is the better long time use for them.

I haven't built the GL in a long time. There's not just the shield cost, there is also the more time-sensitive lightbulb cost. I don't normally go for aesthetics or literature for a while, as instead I'm beelinging to monarchy/CoL/Beauracracy.

It's not the Great Library that is overrated, it's Liberalism

I've really tried to limit the wonders I build recently, I have to say the GL is one of the ones on my shopping list. it does really give your game a little kick in both reaearch and GPP, whether you choose to chase lib thru bulbling or settle scientists and build acadamies all these things help. I always save a few forrests to chop it out and build it in my GP farm with Nat Epic and Oxford. Then again I play at lower levels so I suppose its a little easier to get.

Is it game breaking? No.

Is it worth the hammers? I think so.

Should I try different stratagies and not rely on such shiny things? probably, yes.

It's not the Great Library that is overrated, it's Liberalism

Could be . But remember Liberalism works both ways giving you a free tech as well as denying AI that freebie . Also early game research being slow , lightbulbing is really powerful . Now which GP provides most by Lightbulbing , the great scientist . Scientists bulbing path leads to Liberalism , which gives you a bonus tech.

Easiest way to gain a tech lead in the Higher difficulties is shooting for Liberalism .

Liberalism is NOT overrated in my opinion for the following reasons.

1) Mid-game free tech. 95% of my games it's nationalism (first crack st teh Taj), Atronomy (sea dominance and intercontinental trade with first crack at certain resources), or Printing Press (extra commerce to cottages and close to rifling).

2) The tech tree of phil/paper/education is neglectedby alot of AIs and thus makes excellent tech trading fodder. Education is prized by teh AI and you get good return if traded before you tech off liberalism.

3) Those two techs are very valuable. Free Religion can ease alot of diplomacy problems and increase your research rate. Free Speech is an excellent tech for a CE and spreading culture borders. It's also indespensible for a culture win.

Have you lost the game if you lose the race, of course not. But you are in a VERY good position if you do!

GL IMHO is actually more important for a CE guy. Instead of going for Caste system and feed multiple scientists purely with extra food, you don't need Caste and still run 4 scientists in a cottage-based city without stopping the growth of the cottages, while generating a decent flow of GS.

Aesthetics and literature may be a diversion, but it's worth it. Aesthetics are something I don't mind trading away and it has very good trade value from the AI perspective. Literature is critical for the two most valuable national wonders in the game. And I always feel OK to trade these two non-military techs to the AIs at the right time without fear they will use them back against me.

I think The Great Library would be somewhat less valued if the AI properly beelined for it. As it is, I can get it at least 90%(probably more) of the time on Emperor if I beeline for it after work and resource techs even if I don't have marble or a industrious civ, should I choose to do so.
I don't always try to get it, it's certainly not as powerful as the pyramids, but it is there if you want it since it's undervalued by the AI, and a bit later in the game than the early wonders, so you can better evaluate your priorities to see if it makes strategic sense.

Being comparable to running two scientists somewhere isn't much. Being able to run it along with 2 scientists from a library, not much more science, but a huge GPP boost.

I think it's overrated on lower difficulties where beelining is less powerful and if you're running SE, beelining biology will net you more specialists than great library. Of course, it might help you bulb those faster.

I haven't build it in the last couple of games but I think that if you got marble and can place it in your science/scientist city, there's no excuse to skip this baby.

My problem is that I skip literature quite a lot lately :x

depends on the lvl you play... as anything. The wonder it's not overrated; the only situation where I find it overrated is when you're spiritual. With spiritual, you have the flexibility to switch into or/slavery when you need the next set of buildings whipped and switch back to paci/caste in 5 turns.

without spiritual, on marathon, you'll lose 6 turns each time you do the switch/switch back; and 6 turns is 1/3rd of a tech or so. Which leaves you with either running caste(you can hire only 2 gs up to astronomy) or run 2 mini gp farms with 2 scientists. Both are subpar; the 1st leaves you without the whip, which is a pain, the 2nd leaves you with 2 poor gp farms and with a the dilemma of... paci, or OR?

From this to actually getting the gl... now that's a different story. Wanting is one thing, actually getting is another :p

and if liberalism is overrated, I'm the pope :p

IMO it's the Pyramids that's overrated :)

While hardly essential, it's definitely nice to have and usually I find I don't have to jump through hoops to get it. If you have marble online, the tech path also unlucks other wonders with a discount that are useful to have (the Statue of Zeus can cause a few headaches in the wrong hands).

It's not the Great Library that is overrated, it's Liberalism

Absolutely right!

In one city challenges, it is a must have.

I think neither Lib nor GL is overrated. The GL is a great hammers > beakers/GPP converter. It offers that much that you could actually forget your more pressing matters however. Getting early access to NE (and HE) can be huge as well.

Lib is also huge as well. Especially if you play continents map and on your continent are two religions dominant and on the other of course there is one other religion, then free religion is the way to go if you don't want to be crushed by religion maniacs. The techs leading to lib are very important anyway, esp paper and education. In fact, lib is somewhat a better GP-bulb. You can chose your tech 100%, you get the whole tech and you have some nice trading material.

It is very benefical to go for TGL/Lib so I don't think they're overrated.

The GL gives you two FREE scientists = no population spent. Yes, it costs hammers, but the FREE 6 gpp/t is extremely valuable, especially when you're going up the liberalism tree. Regardless, if you can get the GL in your gpfarm it is an amazing addition.

It's 8 gpp/t actually (6 from the scientists and 2 from the wonder itself). All the good wonders get labeled as "must have" by some, but it's not true. Same thing with the Pyramids, everything is situational. If you've got better things to do around that time go ahead and do them.

Another not mentioned reason as to why it's so popular on immortal/deity is the strenght of the AI at that time. You usually can't engage a war that early with ancient troops and come out on top due to the AI bonuses and as a result you will often have some spare hammers for the wonder while on the defense.

The conversion rate for scientists is (ignoring happiness and healthiness)

2:food: --> 3:science: 3:gp:

The conversion rate for hills is (assuming half grassland, half plains)

2:food: --> 5:hammers:


Assuming you can rearrange your tiles suitably, the 'cost' of the great library is, without any bonuses,

350:hammers: = 140:food: = 210:science: 210:gp:


The great library provides a free 6:science: 8:gp:. The great library pays for its :gp: 'cost' after 27 turns. It pays for its :science: 'cost' after 35 turns.


(And, of course, there are all the other circumstantial things that make the great library good that have been mentioned in the thread)

And MyOtherName's example is without modifiers. Since atleast Polytheism is required for lit, OR is a possibility, and lets say you have a forge aswell (or plain Ind). In that case, not considering happiness and health, the tradeoff is 237 :hammers: which would catch up in :gp: after about 18 turns and :science: in 24 turns. I'd like to see you get from literature to scimeth in 24 turns...

Except teching to literature is not a sunk cost that can be ignored. Even if you want to assume writing (libs/open borders/culture) as a given Aesthetics and Literature, while great techs in their own right, are not a given priority and should be included when considering the cost of building the GL.

Just something to consider when deciding to pursue the GL and the cost/benefit trade-off calculations.

Well Literature is required for National Epic, key in setting up a GP farm.

I do not place as high an emphasis on the National Epic in the early game as some others may. Same goes for the Heroic Epic. Both national wonders generally become vital long after the race for the GL is over. Rushing to get them out earlier means I am forgoing some other technologies that provide a more meaningful immediate benefit.

I do not place as high an emphasis on the National Epic in the early game as some others may. Same goes for the Heroic Epic. Both national wonders generally become vital long after the race for the GL is over. Rushing to get them out earlier means I am forgoing some other technologies that provide a more meaningful immediate benefit.
As many mentioned, the biggest benefit of the GL is GPP. So you should build it in your GPfarm as you get the biggest benefit there. So NE is vital as well. NE-powered GS' usually bulb all the way down to lib (most players do this usually, anyway).

I've taken to pretty much always building the great library and national epic (and later Oxford) in my capital city. 4 scientists + lots of settled great scientists + bureaucracy is huge, early on.

Great Library gives you 4 free food per turn, raises your :) cap by 2 and raises your :health: cap by 2 in the city where it was built. In addition to this, it gives you 2 free population points in that city and allows you to assign 2 extra scientists beyond the 2 allowed by a library.

I'd say that's a pretty potent wonder. Look at the Hanging Gardens. It gives you +1 :health: in all of your cities and +1 population in all of your cities, but you're probably only going to have 6-9 cities when that is built, so I'd say Great Library still comes out well ahead.

If I'm running a specialist economy, the Great Library is a very-nice-to-have. If I'm running a CE, though, the Great Library is spectacular. All of my GP points are going to come from one city and if I want Great Scientist Points in particular, this is going to more than double my rate of Great Person acquisition. In fact, that's a REAL doubling that is multiplied with any GP point bonus and not added in typical CIV fashion.

I'd say that's pretty amazing. It's certainly not a must have. Nothing is a must have since I'm not going to restart my game over any one thing. It is a great advantage in a game where it is appropriate, though.

IMO, almost every wonder is over-rated. There aren't too many wonders that save civs without a military.

The GL is pretty strong though. Early GPP and research boosts are powerful. My problem is that my tech path usually skips the needed GL tech unless I'm isolated. I tend to much favor a strategic metal, then construction/CoL/Currency then monarchy whenever I get the chance. The GL isn't going to be unbuilt very long after that, although if some foolish civ made it near me...it may very well end up in my hands anyway...

I've never found the great library to be a very high priority for the AI. If i want it, i can always get it, even after researching calendar, col, hr, currency, etc. 800ad seems to be around when it gets built, even on emperor. Occasionally it'll go early, 400ad, which is still more than enough time to beat the AI to it.

One advantage of teching literature early is that you can always sell it to the AI. Selling aesthetics and literature i often manage to keep a 100% research rate while teching CS, paper, philo, and sometimes even education. 300 gold goes a long way early game.

I agree that great library is overrated, that said it is still the best wonder in the early/mid game... you need to get both aesthetics and literature, both of which are useless techs and it does cost a huge amount of hammers...

I agree that great library is overrated, that said it is still the best wonder in the early/mid game... you need to get both aesthetics and literature, both of which are useless techs and it does cost a huge amount of hammers...

The hammers issue has been discussed already. That said, Aesthetics is a nice tech for selling to the AIs, aswell as grabbing SoZ, another very nice wonder earlygame. Literature opens up HE and NE aswell as GL, not that useless at all...

Except teching to literature is not a sunk cost that can be ignored. Even if you want to assume writing (libs/open borders/culture) as a given Aesthetics and Literature, while great techs in their own right, are not a given priority and should be included when considering the cost of building the GL.

Just something to consider when deciding to pursue the GL and the cost/benefit trade-off calculations.

Aesthetics is a very nice tech for backfilling, you can trade it for IW straight off and Alpha with one or 2 turns invested. Literature is fairly cheap compared to the other techs in that tier. I try to get GL built even if I don't have nearby marble simply because it speeds up the Lib beeline. Having the majority of your GPPs in one city will speed up the pops compared to spreading them in more than one city.

Great Library is one of the "plums" that make the Aesthetics tech road gambit worthwhile.

Going after Aesthetics is generally an okay gambit, if you:

1) Get the Great Library
2) Get the Parthenon
3) Get the Sistine Chapel
4) Get the free artist from Music for a Golden Age to switch to Beauracracy, etc...
5) Get that Thai Shrine thing Shanwya so you switch into Pacifism to start the Golden Age, and switch to Free Religion on the way out.

You'll be maybe 20 turns behind in the Liberalism race but you have enough time to make up those turns by bulbing maybe 3-4 great people and basically starving your way on the final sprint to Lib. Also you CANNOT trade any Liberalism techs until you win the race.

You end up with the Sistine Chapel and the free golden age.

Marble's a rare find though, and you will be seriously deforested, and your empire will be small, all of which can be problems. The problem isn't that the hammers for Great Library could have been catapults, its that they could have been Settlers. However, having less cities to maintain will boost your research rate.

I think Aesthetics vs. straight Civil Service beeline are about even, and both are somewhat ahead of the Religious route. The advantage of Civil Service beeline is you get Longbowmen/ Crossbowmen/ Macemen earlier to defend your cities. If you go with Aesthetics you have to be much more cautious with diplomacy ratings.

Or another way to put it, the Aesthetics route is only worth it if it doesn't end up costing you Liberalism. And you need the Great Library so that it doesn't.

Also, Drama's damn good too. Theaters need to be built the earlier the better and is a crucial building, and Globe Theater is broken. Unfortunately Drama being more expensive than Literature is a huge liability when racing to Music, and then its off to race for Liberalism.

Hm. Maybe for a Spiritual Leader (Maybe Ramsses, Spiritual/ Industrious?) the correct strategy would be to pop the free artist for Drama instead of the Golden Age?

Cheers,

Dai

One of the biggest reasons I race to Music is to bulb the Artist for Drama.

I agree that all Wonders are overrated, and that you are likely better off with an equal amount of hammers invested directly in your military, but they are a big part of what makes the game fun, for me anyway.

I would like to see what the thread starter (or anyone) thinks are the top 5 wonders in the game? Qualify them as you will, for various economic strategies or leadership traits or map types, etc. That might actually make a decent "stand alone" thread.

Well its been done several times already, but here are my choices...

Great Wall: You need this on Deity or Barbs will likely kill you.

Apostalic Palace: Even without the cheesey religious/ diplomatic victory, being and to start/ end wars and guarantee city take overs make this wonder a dominant force

Great Lighthouse: Opens up its own strategy, coastal REX, that is impossible without this wonder

Sistine Chapel: Culture is all-important

Broadway/ Hollywood/ Rock and Roll: Trading these resources end up shoring all of your empire's weaknesses, gets you to 100% research and sets you up for a late win

Including National Wonders:

Globe Theater- cheesey/ abusive with Slavery/ Nationalism

Iron Works- huge for your capital

Oxford University- I've never won a game without building this

Well, I disagree that wonders are overrated. They offer key advantages while getting you more GP pointswhich get's you Great Poeple faster in more useful times. Unless of course you assume GPs are overrated.

Top 5 wonders?

Great Wall

Pyramids

Great Library

Great Lighthouse (situational)

Taj (BTS only for the buffed GAs)

Honorable mention to the oracle only because it is dirt cheap and that extra tech (MC or CoL) can be a big game turner and open alot of early trades.

And putting all those hammers into military only goes as far as the economy can pay for them.

Hmmm, if you get pyramids and are running representation, then building great library adds 18 beakers + 2 specialists that are contributing to your +GPP till scientific method. I think great library is the second most important wonder after pyramids for SE.

@Madscientist: Is Taj better than MoM? Compare:
:hammers:-wise: MoM is cheapest
:science:-wise: MoM is earliest
ressource-wise: Both is cheaper with marble.
Effectwise: MoM catches up at 2nd GA, after that it beats Taj.

Diamondeye, good point on the MoM and Taj. The only comment is I find the Taj easier to get after taking nationalism off liberalism while the AI usually get first crack at the MoM because they get calender first. I also seam to afford the hammers for the Taj more than the erlier MoM.

But I agree that at 3 GPs the MoM is the betetr value.

I agree that Taj seems easier to get, as Calendar is not a crucial tech unless in need of lots of :).... Anyone got the actual :hammers: cost of those 2 wonders? Am I dead wrong guessing MoM = 240 :hammers: and Taj 550 :hammers:? Is the difference smaller? Larger?

MoM's a little harder to use, because it tacks its extra GA after your normal triggers. Taj is an extra trigger you can take advantage of in a calculated manner - the effects are more evident and palpable.

I'd say that triggering the GA itself to spring the Civics change and the hammer boost on your own terms is better than a few turns extra on a GA you sprang off a GP.

I agree with Roxlimn. The ideal case definitely is to get both. But if I can only get one I'll pick Taj. One more GA is better than extended GA in general. Taj comes out at the time when civic changes are really required. I usually use the first GA to switch into merchantilism and in the 2nd one go to state-economy.

But it'll be different if that's a spiritual leader. MoM extended GA by half. So with two GA MoM will give you a bonus GA like a buy 2 get 1 free deal. Based on the hammer I'll say MoM is better. And with philosophical leader it's not difficult to get the 3rd GA. In that case MoM is far better.

I see your point, but you can't time Taj that well without losing the race for it, AIs tend to build it rather quick... Anyway, can we agree that the MoM, whilst maybe not entirely catching up at 2nd GA, is definately as good as / better at 3rd?

MoM and Taj are both great wonders but there are other very powerful wonders that would appear in my top 5 list, at least on some maps.

Parthenon: If the GL is overrated then this must be the most underated early wonder. It can easily produce far more GPPs during its lifetime (they both obsolete with Sci Method) than the GL as it gives its bonus to all cities. That gives a Philosophical leader a 50% boost to his trait (25% more GPPs) and an Industrious leader will get 50% more GPPs from his wonders.

Let's compare the two wonders. If the GL and Pathenon both have 100 turns to boost your GPP economy, the GL will give 800 GPPs but the Parthenon will give 300 GPPs itself and every other wonder will give 100 GPPs and every specialist run for 100 turns would give 150 GPPs. So with a modest 4 other wonders and running 6 specialists (on average) for 100 turns we'd get 300 (Parthenon) + 4 * 100 + 6 * 150 = 1600 GPPs which is twice what the GL gave. With a big empire and some planning it is easy to leverage the Parthenon to be the most powerful wonder.

Statue of Liberty: On a large continent this can be a middle to late game powerhouse producing huge amounts of beakers with Representaion and free GPPs (only valuable in a few cities). In my latest game Suleiman has 28 cities on his own continent and is running Representation. About 5 cities have a good chance of making another GP so their GPPs are relevant. At this stage of the game (Rifling has just been researched) it is by far the most powerful wonder I could get.

I run a CE and I still enjoy getting the Great Library. It can produce 3 great scientists on it's own power pretty easy, or it's a great addition to a gpfarm. I feel like whichever Civ gets it is gonna be in the drivers seat on the tech race for a long time to come. It's a worthwhile wonder, just hard to take the time off sometimes to research the right stuff early enough.