I'm playing a game, and Sury and I teamed up and went to war with Monty. Sury declared peace after taking one city, and I took another two, leaving him with two cities, on the opposite sides of a continent, with probably 15 tiles between the two of them. I went to ask for peace, also asking for vassalization, and he said "We're doing fine on our own". How could they be doing fine? What DOES it take to Vassalize a civ?

You probably don't have power rating high enough for him to capitulate. If you aim to capitulate a civ, you should try to kill as many units as possible.

If an AI vassalizes, it does to get the protection of its Master because he himself is weak. So if you're weak as well, he won't likely capitulate. Check the Shaka ALC.

ahh ok. I'll work on the killing then :D

I seem to have serious trouble getting these scrubs to cap before it's almost more cost effective to just finish them off. The exceptions I've encountered were bad WW on my part, or a stupid AI with a stupid set of stupid island cities somewhere. Those types of things I'll grab a capitulation...but generally speaking they AI won't cap to me until it's down to about 4 cities. Usually the culture is oppressive too, making some of the cities I took from them useless unless I wipe that civ off the continent...then of course their culture doesn't apply too much pressure!

Just an FYI, you can always conquer a civ to the point where he'll capitulate and then return portions, if not all, of the land you conquered to get him to that point.

As long as doing so doesn't exceed 50% or your land/pop, you're fine.

So if you're goal is to vassalize a nation as it stands but they're being stubborn, conquer more, then liberate. It also helps to ease the diplomatic burdens between your two civs as well. Since you get + for liberating cities.

Just an FYI, you can always conquer a civ to the point where he'll capitulate and then return portions, if not all, of the land you conquered to get him to that point.

As long as doing so doesn't exceed 50% or your land/pop, you're fine.

So if you're goal is to vassalize a nation as it stands but they're being stubborn, conquer more, then liberate. It also helps to ease the diplomatic burdens between your two civs as well. Since you get + for liberating cities.

A little bump here I know, but this is a really great tip!

On the other hand, after testing this out in the newest version (3.17), it looks like I need them to be "Friendly" in order to accept becoming a vassal state... :/ Seems like others have to beat the crap out of the AI before you can get him as a vassal. No wonder it happens so rarely then. Not often I get to "save" an AI at least...

And the enemy doesn't capitulate until he's got only 1 or 2 units and 1 city left :/ This is on Emperor difficulty.

I'm playing a game, and Sury and I teamed up and went to war with Monty. Sury declared peace after taking one city, and I took another two, leaving him with two cities, on the opposite sides of a continent, with probably 15 tiles between the two of them. I went to ask for peace, also asking for vassalization, and he said "We're doing fine on our own". How could they be doing fine? What DOES it take to Vassalize a civ?

I think the threshold varies between civs. I know I have had Monty refuse to Capitulate to me until I had an SoD on the doorstep of his last city. He then sang a different tune...then he didn't sing at all.

I think the threshold varies between civs. I know I have had Monty refuse to Capitulate to me until I had an SoD on the doorstep of his last city. He then sang a different tune...then he didn't sing at all.

Kill/death plays the largest role in my experience (then power rating). I've forced montezuma to capitulate with 7 or 8 cities or so. Now, this took me wiping out 50 units and losing less than 10 or something, but he did. He was very useful later (in fact his input factored into whether I won a later war IMO). It was an old noble's club game where I was playing on monarch - the freddy game. I think that was NC IV.

Kill/death plays the largest role in my experience (then power rating). I've forced montezuma to capitulate with 7 or 8 cities or so. Now, this took me wiping out 50 units and losing less than 10 or something, but he did. He was very useful later (in fact his input factored into whether I won a later war IMO). It was an old noble's club game where I was playing on monarch - the freddy game. I think that was NC IV.

Probably has something to do with war weariness then (maybe).

Probably has something to do with war weariness then (maybe).

I don't think so, I just think it's hard-coded for the AI to look at power rating and k/d. The AI gets such stupidly reduced WW. They have like 30% of our WW at higher levels, and that's BEFORE buildings that reduce it. If you were ever wondering how shaka could slam 20 knights and 10 maces and etc etc into another AI in their territory and keep going without crippling WW, that's why. AI's start with almost the same level of WW reduction that we get when we run police state and have a jail...

apparently 3.17 changes capitulation mechanics making AIs more likely to capitulate in situations like this IIRC

War Weariness for AIs are 100% of normal on Settler and then decreases by 10% per level;

Chieftan: 90
Warlord: 80
Noble: 70
Prince: 60
Monarch: 50
Emperor: 40
Immortal: 30
Deity: 20

And I believe TMIT is correct, the K/D ratio means alot to most of the AIs. I don't know what factors account for this, but I suspect that leaders with a high AttackCourage would also need to lose more units before capitulating, to prevent exploiting.

On the topic of attack courage, I have found that the AI ignores this if it is attacking a city with walls/castles and all of it's siege weapons are killed before the bombardment is done. If you're in a castle with ~100% left on a hill, this can lead to ridiculous losses for the AI, since you will need only few defenders (although many are ofcourse preferred) and some flankers (HAs with F-II are good for this) to eradicate the enemy stack.

I seem to have serious trouble getting these scrubs to cap before it's almost more cost effective to just finish them off. The exceptions I've encountered were bad WW on my part, or a stupid AI with a stupid set of stupid island cities somewhere. Those types of things I'll grab a capitulation...but generally speaking they AI won't cap to me until it's down to about 4 cities.

You're probably not approaching them at the right time, you don't just wait for them to make the offer. Everytime you capture a city, check with them to see if they're ready to give in or not. You'll probably find that they'll capitulate much earlier than what you've been experiencing. And if you wait until they make the offer, there's always the chance that they'll look to some other civ for protection.

Depends on how strong you are. SOmetimes you can make a civ cap after one or two city captures. All you have to be is super strong and also wait a couple of turns so he can see its hopeless. He won't cap after one or two turns. IT ussually takes about 5 or so.

On the topic of attack courage, I have found that the AI ignores this if it is attacking a city with walls/castles and all of it's siege weapons are killed before the bombardment is done. If you're in a castle with ~100% left on a hill, this can lead to ridiculous losses for the AI, since you will need only few defenders (although many are ofcourse preferred) and some flankers (HAs with F-II are good for this) to eradicate the enemy stack.

I think they fixed this. THe only thing I see the AI suicide anymore is artillary but the AI usually has enormous amounts of this. And usually if your stuck in a situation like this then AI ends up taking the city. I think its programmed to produce lots of artillary during war time. I've always seen it have a steady stream if its ready for war

I think they fixed this. THe only thing I see the AI suicide anymore is artillary but the AI usually has enormous amounts of this. And usually if your stuck in a situation like this then AI ends up taking the city. I think its programmed to produce lots of artillary during war time. I've always seen it have a steady stream if its ready for war

If you break a siege by killing all catapults or whatever, the AI still indeed suicides its stack into the castle. This is as of 3.17, which is a pretty new patch. It was also true in Bhruic's 3.13, so I don't think they've "fixed" it just yet.

AI does mix its stacks up a bit so flanking might be hard when you're talking 4+ cats with a couple spears in the stack. How many HA's do you want to use? Depending on the situation it might be easier just to spank their stack down with your OWN siege, then kill it. Walls/castles are still helpful early on though, because the AI will dutifully sit there bombarding it for an eternity.

It is definately different for the various AI players. Whenever I see India on the map, I just refer to them as my future vassal, generally no war necessary. Mansa Musa and Hatty of Egypt are also quick to become vassals if you build enough troops. Tokugawa will almost never vassalize without puting up a futile (or feudal hehehe) attempt of a fight.

If you break a siege by killing all catapults or whatever, the AI still indeed suicides its stack into the castle. This is as of 3.17, which is a pretty new patch. It was also true in Bhruic's 3.13, so I don't think they've "fixed" it just yet.

AI does mix its stacks up a bit so flanking might be hard when you're talking 4+ cats with a couple spears in the stack. How many HA's do you want to use? Depending on the situation it might be easier just to spank their stack down with your OWN siege, then kill it. Walls/castles are still helpful early on though, because the AI will dutifully sit there bombarding it for an eternity.

A cattie needs four hits in the flank to go lullabye, as per 3.13. I think the flanking changed in 3.17 (reflecting strength of defender, not cattie), but I have not had the time to check how much this changes the results.

With 4 hits needed and a survival rate of >50% (with FL-II, they have 50% withdrawal, so however low odds of victory, they will be above 50% survival). This means you need 8 HAs, theoretically, to kill off the catties in one turn. 10 would probably be better. But you can do with as few as 4, if lucky (2 hits first round, 1 hit next round, 1 hit third round), barring enemy medics.

A cattie needs four hits in the flank to go lullabye, as per 3.13. I think the flanking changed in 3.17 (reflecting strength of defender, not cattie), but I have not had the time to check how much this changes the results.

With 4 hits needed and a survival rate of >50% (with FL-II, they have 50% withdrawal, so however low odds of victory, they will be above 50% survival). This means you need 8 HAs, theoretically, to kill off the catties in one turn. 10 would probably be better. But you can do with as few as 4, if lucky (2 hits first round, 1 hit next round, 1 hit third round), barring enemy medics.

That's a lot of ifs. And 10 HA's are a lot of hammers. HA = Catapult in terms of hammers. 4-5 catapults attacking on flatland with say another 4-5 axemen atatcking the AI stack will pretty much crush anything in the classical age.

Don't get me wrong though, I LOVE HA's, and I love flanking AI siege. It's just not always the most cost-effective approach. 2 move troops and quick-strike naval invasions are underestimated though. Hitting before a city gets reinforced means the potential for a lot of hammers saved, especially if you can stock it with CG troops before a counter-attack. Using enemy roads to garrison a city with CG archers following a HA strike is very fun and pretty hammer-efficient :). Using amphibious attacks (assuming high odds or the promotion) to take a city and slap CG II defenders in there is VERY efficient. Obsolete calls that kind of setup a "pillbox". From my experience, that's EXACTLY how it tends to function. The AI might take it back, maybe. It will often lose 10+ units doing so :), and meanwhile you can just loop around for more coastal cities. I LOVE water maps, even continents, as what used to seem very hard (intercontinental invasions) now actually seems easier than traditional land wars, and faster. Just watch your seafood resources :rolleyes:.

I tried this in a LAN game I just played. I am Ragnar with my buddy on my team playing Gilgamesh, and I have the team Augustus + Alexander. I just managed to pump out 10 HAs with 2 promos (I held them until I could see whether Flank or Combat would prove most useful).

First of all; In case HA attacks stack protected by HA guarding Catapult, the flanking damage is now 1.0, not 1.5 as usually. I believe it was the same case with spears although I am not sure.

Second; I monstly got to use Combat since alex and caesar werent that bright aand were behind in techs. 10 HAs are more than enough to pick down a stack of catties in that case (50% win rate, 10% retreat rate).

Once as tokugawa i took Brennus capital and only his capitol, he immediactly wanted to vassalize he was 30% my size afterwards which was pretty cool, to have an actually usefull vassal :). So i suspect that when the ai loses its capitol it doesnt take much more to for them to capitulate unless your military is weak in comparison.

Once as tokugawa i took Brennus capital and only his capitol, he immediactly wanted to vassalize he was 30% my size afterwards which was pretty cool, to have an actually usefull vassal :). So i suspect that when the ai loses its capitol it doesnt take much more to for them to capitulate unless your military is weak in comparison.

This is probably because the capital is the most improved city of most civs and better improvements lead to better production leading to more troops garrisoned.

And capitals typically have high pop and culture so taking that away hurts. For the AI, I mean.

In my experience the power rating is the key to vassalizing other civs. In one of my games I was able to vassalize the whole world simply because my power rating was off the charts. All it took was the sight of my massive SoD. Most of them were begging to capitulate after only one or two of their cities fell. Many times I would not even have to go to war. Small civs would often offer to be my vassal state to protect themselves from warmongers.

In my last game I bribed Alex to attack Justinian. Alex got his butt kicked… :lol: badly. So the crybaby came to me and offered to be my vassel rather than be destroyed by Justin.
I wonder if you could base a strategy off this? Either send your ally against another more powerful foe or bribe someone to attack your ally. It seems to work reasonably well in my games.

Has someone else noted a tendency of the AI not wanting to capitulate anymore if you've really pissed them off? Usually, if I go for conquest (razing cities rather than keeping them) or nuke someone to the stone age they do not want to capitulate that easily anymore.

If you're winning by that much, you can probably end the game with your own army. Getting voluntary vassals just speeds things up a bit - it isn't really a "strategy" at that point.