I love this mod so much I am going to blatantly rip it off for my next D&D campaign (prob. a 4th ed one) and I love the unique and mysterious Balseraph most of all the races. I plan on creating my own history and backstory for them, but I was hoping to enlist y'all with some help in determining a few things. Bear in mind this is for my own amusement, so don't worry if it is "canon" or not.

Perpentach: Is he truly "insane?" Is he just as likely to kill you as he is to hug you depending entriely on his mood, or does he always have some ulterior motive for the seemingly random things he does? Is he really evil, or does he simply have a moral code totally alien to what we percieve?

Keelyn: Do her "puppets" have genuine affection for her, or is she just a tool they cultivated for their own use? I lean towards Giggles at least loving her in his own twisted and evil fashion.

Loki: What is his origin, and what is his relationship to Perpentach and Keelyn?

Would an aristocratic society or a guild based society make more sense? My original idea is that Balseraph society is caste based. With each tradiotional circus act having it's own place in a rigid social heirarchy. However, I see marriage and attachment being entirely irrelevant to the Balseraphs, so familial ties to a specific job or caste would be difficult to implement. Would you simply be the same caste as your mother since determing who a Balseraph's father is would be nigh impossible?

Finally, how "evil" should the average Balseraph be? Are they twisted deviants who will stoop to just about anything for their own gain, much like the Drow in D&D? Or are they simply artists and performers trying to get by as best they can in their clown king's madhouse? I think Perpentach's inner circle at least should be disgustingly debauched anyway.

I see Balseraph society as the kind you find morally repugnant until you find yourself there. Then you try the wine. . . then you taste the food. . . then you enjoy a show. . .then you hear the music. . .then you dance and revel until delerium. . . then you dance with someone else. . . then they lead you someplace dark that smells of incense and opium. Sooner or later, you become addicted to your own pleasure until you cannot get enough. Even the most pious priest of Junil has their breaking point.

Perpentach's insanity is due primarily to the fact that his mind contains copies of the minds of at least hundreds, possibly even tens of thousands of his victims. He was a powerful magical savant, and the strongest student of Kyorlin, whose specialty was mind magic. He has used this since his early childhood to control the minds of others, but cannot help but create a copy of each mind he enters. These minds constantly detract and argue with him and with each other. Kyorlin managed to use Perpentachs power to bind these minds in a corner of his mind when he took him on as a student, allowing him to concentrate and hone his skills. When Kyorlin turned good, Perp did not, and they fought and epic magical battle. Perpentach even successfully controlled the mind of Kyorlin, but Kyorlin (possibly the copy of him in Perp's mind. The later of the at least two copies of him, that is.) broke down the barrier he had created, and threw Perp into disarray. He could not defeat him, but he bound him in the Tower of Eyes, far from any minds to control, guarded by Golems. Eventually a traveling carnival wandered near, and he took them over and used them fight off the golems. All these carnies died, but he escaped, and he still holds them in his mind. By this time, centuries alone with his thoughts had driven him insane, and he had learned to embrace them. He doesn't suffer from insanity, he has come to enjoy it.

He has many motive and moral codes, which often conflict. He is however known to be extremely honest, usually prefering to keep his word literally but not do in the way that people expect him to.



I don't know about Keelyn, probably a bit of both.


I don't know about Loki either, but it has been suggested that he may actually be an Angel of Mammon (God of the Mind) or possibly Camulos (God of Chaos)


Yeah, an odd sort of aristocracy is probably right. The Nobles are probably more susceptible to the whims of Perpentach, so the "upper" classes are probably not really any better off. I suspect that there is a great deal of social mobility, with no logical basis whatsoever for most promotions or demotions.


Most Balseraphs have just gone insane like their leader. They probably don't have much of a concept of good or evil, and have become quite amoral.

The Balseraph nobility are saner than Perpentach himself, which explains why the empire hasn't instantly collapsed. They can't directly counter his insane schemes, but they are able to subvert his orders to keep things running smoothly, and they often notice when he does things particularly outrageous.

Read the following 'pedia entries. These are crucial to understanding the Balseraphs:

Perpentach (leader)
Keelyn (leader)
Beeri Bawl (leader)
Revelry (spell)

The Balseraph nobility are saner than Perpentach himself, which explains why the empire hasn't instantly collapsed. In my mind, the Balseraph nobility are mad in at least one sense--they think that they can take advantage of Perpentach's madness. Each probably has his own scheme he tries to advance behind the back of the mad king--but Perpentach is also master of mind magic, and these schemes invariably fail.

I think the common people are a mixed lot; some enjoying the hedonism and splendor, some trying to avoid being noticed and eek out a life and provide for themselves despite the mad and ever changing laws and plots. Similarly, some enjoy the cultural aspects, delighting in art for it's own sake, and others enjoy the cruel pleasures of others misery, the freakish slaves and simple fools.

I have read all the 'pedia entries pertaining to the Balseraphs. I'm just looking to delve into them further.

How many of y'all have ever been to a Mardi Gras celebration? When I imagine the city of Jubilee, I imagine the City of New Orleans, only a darker, twisted mirror image. One where the Mardi Gras never ends. The bouncer will always open the velvet rope for you, but you don't know whether it was a good idea to go inside until it is too late. One room may bring you to boundless pleasures of the flesh, but the next you may be forced to be mutilated for the pleasure of a noble.

I see daily life for the "Nobles" being one where every noble is trying to out-do the others by creating the next craze. They are a nation obsessed with aestic values. The more powerful and influential someone becomes, the more they steer the masses into believing what is and is not in fashion. I also see a "Sado-Masochistic" society. The sadism comes in that they will force nigh unholy hardship and disgustingly perverse situations upon their slaves and peasants, but they are also Masochistic in that they push their own boundries of pain and pleasure. I guess an example would be piercing yourself until there is no skin left to pierce, or ritualisticly scarring your body in an effort to improve your "beauty." Or that month's concept of beauty anyway.

PS- It is my hope that this will become an ongoing discussion on the daily lives of the Balseraph people, and that it will encourage those who have a particular love for the other civs to start their own topics on them.

A good example of promotions/demotions in the Balseraph empire:

Fire the complaining advisors! She is the only one doing it right! (painting cows and planting corn on rooftops)

I don't think they are that insane, because after all, their empire somehow holds together, and even thrives. You could have slaves, cruelty and debauchery, but at the end of the day they still manage to hold larger cities than others. What I'm thinking is a heavy, burdensome tax with the nobility taking more of it by corrupting the already-oppressive fees and levies, but then some of it is used for large circuses, fireworks, LSD's and slave-prostitutes that double-up as punchbags. This way the entire empire becomes evil, but also very productive.

It's kinda like everything that was wrong about the Roman Empire. Sure you have roads and aquaducts, but your Emperor sometimes invites you over for a dinner of glass fruit. Or demands you give your wives and daughters to his Legions for an evening.

I think that on the beginning of the Age of Rebirth they are kinda like typical medieval kingdom with insane king. Most of peasants would be too busy with survival and work to care about insane king, they would have low consciousness about the world and most of Perpentach decisions wouldn't have too big effect as the is definite lack of communication/transport/efficiency at that time.

As the time goes and Balseraph have more spare wealth they start investing in entertainment etc. Obviously not everyone is insane, as peasants still need to supply the food and resources. Population in remote villages could be safe, even unaware of decadency. Still most of them would gladly visit large cities and join in the fun only Balseraphs can enjoy. Cities itself would be full of nobles, artists, often crazy scholars, priests and visitors and would have feasts as seen above.

I thought that the Balseraph nobility (or at least a select group) were level headed and pretty much on the ball. They would have to be to keep the country together and functioning. Perpentach is a man who is king of a country, and knows that he is insane. So he probably selected a few level headed people in his court to keep everything in order so he doesn't have to. Those other people who paints cows and stuff, would stay a week or two in the court before being replaced by someone who paints elephants.

Well, if he is insane then he really wouldn't know he is insane.

I think I have settled on the ruling class being a group of promotors. A select few people in the Balseraph lands constantly buy new slaves, train new and unique acts, and generally compete with each other over talent and exposure. All in an attempt to impress their fickle leader who is obsessed with pleasure and entertainment. If Perpentach mentions he has a desire to see a contortionist, these nobles will literally do everything in their power to train, buy, or murder every contortionist they can.
Getting Perentach's ear allows them to drive forth their own personal agendas. Maybe one has a vinyard, so he manages to get Perp to declare that all citizens must spend a days wage on wine every week. That sort of thing.

I really dig the idea of the mimic unit. It adds a cool unique touch to the martial class of the Balseraph. The best Balseraph warriors are the Gladiators who adapt to any situation and learn by studying their opponants in the arena. This helps them maintain the adoration of the crowd. I have often wished there was a way to reward units who survive several attempts at the arena with unique promotions, but it would just encourage re-loading.

I've done that, had a particular Freak that won about four matches in a row, so I named him the Arena champion. Something that annoyed me about freaks is how quickly they became outdated. They have really awesome and unique graphics, it makes me sad that I'm almost forced to upgrade them to swordsmen so soon. The extremely cheap upgrade cost (5) doesn't make keeping them any more excusable, either. I just wish the graphic could stay around longer

Personally, I've always favored the freak being the swordsman. An Acrobat is someone who is in peak physical condition who is both beautiful and lithe. I never really liked being able to takes freaks to the recon line.

As mentioned in the Calabim thread, I'm studying the XML, and while Perpentach is (unsurprisingly) heavily weighted towards the Octopus Overlords, I was surprised to see that Keelyn has no such affiliation, and indeed has a +10 weight towards the Ashen Veil. It seems future generations of the Balseraphs will be going in a very dark direction...

Well she is a demon summoner...

I would, however, prefer her to be a CoE leader. There are too few of them, and she is thematic. She takes over the kingdom in his abscence (sneaky backstabbing). Her mother was a spy.

She doesn't look much like one for subtlety. She takes over the kingdom in her father's absence, true, but a CoE leader would do this by manipulating everyone else behind the scenes, not by storming into the palace with a Balor. Plus she's more inclined to summon demons since many of them are her childhood friends. And she's probably one of the best humans on Erebus to talk to if you want a demon's perspective on things (maybe even better than Tebryn).

One thing that I find really funny is that she's about the closest FFH has come to a "fairy-tale princess" :lol:

Quick side note- I think a large reason for my love of the Balseraph are that they were the first civ I ever played as, and I chose them based solely on the fact that Keelyn had the coolest leader portrait of all the leaders.

Keelyn is Ashen Veil because her puppets have convinced her it's the only way to party. Luckily Perpentach is never absent for such a long period of time as to allow her to truly usurp his rule, but I am certain she has her own cadre of sycophants who do things to please her. One of those things would be adopting her religion.

I assume Perpentach is essentially immortal, so I don't think we need to worry about Keelyn taking control long term.

He isn't immortal, he just takes over the mind of some young person every time he gets old. he wears too much makeup for anyone to notice anyway.

"Oops sorry daddy, was that a knife?"

"Oops sorry daddy, was that a banishing spell?"

"Looks like I'm in charge now huh? Yaay!"

You don't just stab the most powerful telepath in the world. You convince him that life is boring, and maybe he should let Mister Giggles take him back to his house for a different kind of fun.

Convince Perpentach of the Balseraphs that his life is... boring?

Convince Perpentach of the Balseraphs that his life is... boring?

He is insane.....

"Daddy, life is so dull at the paace. If only you would do something drastic. Maybe you could kil yourself?"

"Child, Pretty Child,
I love your eloquent words,
Methinks life is boring
Mabye I should do something new,
I wonder how that last dwarf I killed felt,
Let's find out"

Hey, crazy doesn't mean stupid you know...or heck even gullible. This is a smart persons, just nuts

Rest assured, Perpentach already knows who is planning to kill him, when, where, what they will be wearing at the time, and if he remembered to feed his goldfish.

No one will ever "get the drop" on Perpentach. Also, and this is my own personal opinion, I don't think Keelyn wants to kill her father. I think she really wants him to love her and tries to make herself interesting and useful to him to be sure she gets his attention. I also think Perp loves her in his own way, but more in the way an owner loves his pet, or a really nice sports car. He would be sad for a little while if she disapeared, but get over it pretty quickly.

For all we know, Perp knew he was going to get the spy pregnant in the first place. I'm sure he has his own crazy plans for his daughter.

Rex- I think his response would be more like

Child of mine what an interesting query,
But some lessons I've already learned.
Remember my dear that I'm always so weary
of those I've left broken and spurned.

This gamble you've taken, it's weight you must carry.
Let us hope that you havn't been burned.
Some day on my ashes you may dance and be merry,
But that must be carefully earned.

I am going to switch gears a bit and start talking about some of the unique Balseraph units. We should start with the Freak.


Are freaks made or born? Are "freaks" an actual ethnicity who have genetic maladies they pass on to their offspring? Random unwanted genetic mistakes abonded by their mothers for their lack of beauty. Byproducts of selective and twisted genetic experiments on slaves?

I can't imagine the life of a freak is a pleasant one. You get to spend your entire life in chains performing for the fickle delight of others, unless you seem unusually strong or usefull in which case you get to go forth and die for the greater glory of the Balseraph people.

Well, a Freak has more opportunities than most any other unit in the game though. It has 2 choices for upgrading, and in each path it can upgrade about 3 times to UNIQUE units for the Civ. Pretty nifty actually that all the UUs tie together so well. But for the purposes of this thread, it definitely shows motivation to become a freak for the recognition and upward Mobility. It is like making a good first impression for the Balseraph almost.

I think 'freak' babies would be killed or wouldn't survive long anywhere on Erebus, but in Blaseraphs they are used as attractions and for combat. It's not that they exist ONLY in Balseraphs. Also they'd probably buy freak babies from other civs (illegal trade) and freak pedia entry explains that freaks can be made too :p

Maybe thats why Perpentach has a weird civilization. To give all the baby "Freaks" in the world a chance to be something, because he himself is a freak. A freak of nature with the ability to read minds and switch bodys and stuff.

He isn't crazy, just misunderstood. . .

While I think it is rather cool, what exactly is it that leads an acrobat to give up his job to roam around the countryside scouting and hunting? Acrobats and Harlequins seem more at home in the city, I guess I just don't really understand how they came to be recon units.

I go with the theory that they are just Bards with a different name. Traveling from town to town to learn new tales and secrets. On a totally different tangent, WOTC will not get any money from me as far as D&D 4.0 goes until they re-institute the Bard. My favorite class.

Anyway, anyone else have any ideas about the Balseraph recon line?

Yes -- I think they were only given that name to sound flavourful and civ-appropriate. Though I'm sure one could come up with some sort of in-game coherent explanation :)

I've always pictured the Acrobats swinging through the trees and doing dramatic Parkour across the landscape. Which still doesn't explain why they can run through the desert, but meh.

Yeah, the Balseraphs have a lot of strengths but subtlety sure aint one of 'em. Thus why they have no Assasins or Shadows. Although, a Courtesan uses a certain type of subtlety for sure.

I can picture a Balseraph Assassin trailing his intended victim now.

Excellent! My quarry is moving through that crowded alley. I can tell by the way this corner weaves around combined with the glare from the mid-day sun that all I have to do is move my way through the crowd and prick him with my poisoned needle. No one will ever be the wise. . . HEY COOL A PUPPET SHOW! DO SOME PUNCH AND JUDY! DO SOME PUNCH AND JUDY!

Curious to get an opinion here. What do y'all percieve the overall personality of Keelyn to be? Some go with spoiled brat, some with cold and calculating. All we know from her 'pedia entry is that she is somewhat clingy to her puppets, but with her childhood I think that would be understandable. Also, is she to blame for her wickedness, or simply a victim of her environment? Sort of the nature vs. nurture debate.

This goes back to previous discussion, but I have decided in my own little version of FFH that Giggles has an actual and genuine affection for Keelyn and serves her not just to fulfil his own agenda, but out of a sense of loyalty and even friendship. Yes, even someone who is evil can understand love and friendship.

Oddly, the longest running and most successful D&D campaign I have ever been a part of is one where I play a Chaotic Evil Bard and my companions are a Nuetral Evil Cleric of Orcus and a Nuetral Evil Necromancer. The three have a genuine affection for each other and have even risked their lives for each other. Go figure.

ps- evil bards are crazy. I have actually turned my own stomach with some of the things my bard has done. Great character though, one of the reasons I took an immediate liking to the Balseraphs.

My 2 pences on Balseraph recon units:

Perpentach is perhaps making a parody of everyone else's concept of exploration, sending out oddly-dressed, very very noticeable buffoons to do the job. Imagine a world leader switching his army uniforms from camo to Harlequin's garb.

Of course Perpy then gets the last laugh because those buffoons are actually quite good at their jobs. I like it.

Curious to get an opinion here. What do y'all percieve the overall personality of Keelyn to be? Some go with spoiled brat, some with cold and calculating...
I've always imagined her as a bit of both: a brat who wants everything she can get her hands on, but also a genius capable of immense brilliance when it comes to acquiring that which she seeks. She might want a Lanun city just so she can play pirate on a real, live pirate ship, but rest assured that her methods of obtaining that city will be meticulously planned and terrifyingly sane. And it will concern balors. Lots and lots of balors.
I can see Keelyn being genuine friends with her summons. She's likely a powerful sorceress in mind magic as well as summoning magic, and would probably taint those she summoned with her own childish insanity, slowly converting once-fierce balors into quaint teddy bears willing to play tea party... until, that is, something needed to be killed.

She might want a Lanun city just so she can play pirate on a real, live pirate ship, but rest assured that her methods of obtaining that city will be meticulously planned and terrifyingly sane.

Reading that line actually made me grin ear to ear. LOL! What a great way to describe her!

Either way, she's the closest thing to a fairytale princess FFH has. I always liked that. :evil:

So the Mimic unit. Are we to assume they have this ability because being trained to fight in the arena, Balseraph swordsmen grow to be able to adapt to whatever their opponant throw at them? Or is it simply because the carnies are that good at copying the movement and manerisms of others, like a great actor?

Curious to get an opinion here. What do y'all percieve the overall personality of Keelyn to be? Some go with spoiled brat, some with cold and calculating. All we know from her 'pedia entry is that she is somewhat clingy to her puppets, but with her childhood I think that would be understandable. Also, is she to blame for her wickedness, or simply a victim of her environment? Sort of the nature vs. nurture debate.

She is antisocial and misanthropic because she sees people as lesser beings than her puppets. She isn't childish just because she's a child. She's lucid enough to know the image she projects, and she plays to that. She's clever and greedy and she spoils herself. She just takes after her dad. That's how I see her.

Another question. Who's really the more dangerous of the duo, Keelyn or Perpentach? I thought about it, and I honestly think that of the two, I'd rather trust Perpentach with my life. Perpentach is unpredictable, certainly, but he keeps his word, technically at any rate, and has been known to let worthy opponents go unscathed (as in Lurchiup leader's pedia). Keelyn, I suspect, would happily break her word outright without so much as a twinge of regret and kill for a quick laugh. Also, if Perpentach grows bored of you, he might release you in the unlikey event he's feeling benevolent. Keelyn would certainly kill you, or worse. Basically, Perpentach is insane but sometimes merciful, while Keelyn is consistently evil. At least, that's how I see it.

Curious to get an opinion here. What do y'all percieve the overall personality of Keelyn to be? Some go with spoiled brat, some with cold and calculating...
Keelyn is definitely spoiled(from her diplo quotes, she always seems to expect you to bring her gifts), but, IMO, ultimately rather innocent and naive. Maybe even friendly, in a way. For example, were AV to be adopted, she would probably be entirely oblivious to the world turning into a hell: indeed, she might even like it because her friends can stay longer! There's nothing odd about the mad world of Perpentach to her, it's her existence. It's completely and totally normal. So, in a way, she's also insane.

Not having a true childhood and being raised in a madhouse means to me that she probably dines with demons, murders people for fun, and yet still sleeps with a night light on and giggles when thinking of cute boys.

Another question. Who's really the more dangerous of the duo, Keelyn or Perpentach? I thought about it, and I honestly think that of the two, I'd rather trust Perpentach with my life. Perpentach is unpredictable, certainly, but he keeps his word, technically at any rate, and has been known to let worthy opponents go unscathed (as in Lurchiup leader's pedia). Keelyn, I suspect, would happily break her word outright without so much as a twinge of regret and kill for a quick laugh. Also, if Perpentach grows bored of you, he might release you in the unlikey event he's feeling benevolent. Keelyn would certainly kill you, or worse. Basically, Perpentach is insane but sometimes merciful, while Keelyn is consistently evil. At least, that's how I see it.

Yes, but Perpentach might decide to take over your mind, sentence you to personality death, and then transfer his conciousness into your physical frame. Remember, he's an extremely powerful telepath. At least Keelyn won't violate that sanctity. She'll just have "Puppy" devour your soul or something. Actually, on second thought, could you just smuggle me a razor?

Not having a true childhood and being raised in a madhouse means to me that she probably dines with demons, murders people for fun, and yet still sleeps with a night light on and giggles when thinking of cute boys.

That's even creepier. I imagine that a boy she decides she likes could visit his girlfriend's house to find a scene reminiscent of Einon's 'pedia entry, except Keelyn is sitting there, too, puppetting the possessed body's mouth like a bad ventriloquist and saying stuff like, "Dur, I don't want to be your girlfriend anymore, 'cuz I'm all stupid and icky. Hee, hee!"

Not having a true childhood and being raised in a madhouse means to me that she probably dines with demons, murders people for fun, and yet still sleeps with a night light on and giggles when thinking of cute boys.
That's even creepier. I imagine that a boy she decides she likes could visit his girlfriend's house to find a scene reminiscent of Einon's 'pedia entry, except Keelyn is sitting there, too, puppetting the possessed body's mouth like a bad ventriloquist and saying stuff like, "Dur, I don't want to be your girlfriend anymore, 'cuz I'm all stupid and icky. Hee, hee!"
*Shudders.* I stand by my case (Keelyn is scarier than Perpentach, although both are horrifying) with above quotes as evidence. Although the razor idea is looking like the best one in either situation.

Amazing that someone that was evidently created for no other reason than to give Balseraph players a chance to play without the insane trait could become such an amazing and interesting character in their own right. I think Keelyn and Ethne are the two most interesting leaders in the game.

My heart actually breaks a little when I think about what Keelyn's childhood must have been like. Total and complete abondonment. Your only friends are demonic slaves. Think of the things those demons must have done to her to slowly condition her. Like that imp in her 'pedia entry who manipulates her into summoning him herself. Evil little [expletive]. It is one of the reasons I choose to believe Giggles has genuine affection for her and follows her of his own free will. I want there to be SOMETHING decent in her life, even if it is the twisted love of a balor.

She eats birds too.

Two bits. First, the topic du jour, Keelyn.
...Think of the things those demons must have done to her to slowly condition her. Like that imp in her 'pedia entry who manipulates her into summoning him herself...
I've mentioned this before, but I've always seen Keelyn as the brains of the operations. She's the daughter of a powerful telepath, and while she isn't formally trained, she's proven a powerful sorceress. She probably influences her demonic henchmen as much as, if not more than, they influence her. I love the image of the fierce servants of Hell being unwittingly transformed into the playthings of a girl who doesn't fully grasp her own power.

So the Mimic unit. Are we to assume they have this ability because being trained to fight in the arena, Balseraph swordsmen grow to be able to adapt to whatever their opponant throw at them? Or is it simply because the carnies are that good at copying the movement and manerisms of others, like a great actor?
I see it the carny way. They see their opponents fighting better than they do and, mostly for their own amusement, copy that new "trick" exactly. But they remember what they've learned as well and use it on their other enemies. Although perhaps, since we're talking about the Balseraphs, a weak form of mind reading is involved as well; they might literally steal the skill from their foes' minds.
I can see the Mimics being a slightly irritating foe either way.

Imagine you're a Bannor soldier, and you suddenly see a perfectly ordered legion. Except their colors are bright and flamboyant, and the soldiers are grinning like it's some sort of hilarious joke... then you see one raise the Balseraph banner in parody of the ceremonies used to raise the Bannor one. Your own legion attacks, expecting them to break ranks like the clowns they are... but they just smile even more and prepare, in Bannor fashion, to meet the charge. And suddenly, you're the ones breaking ranks, panicking at the thought of facing an enemy so perfectly trained in Bannor tactics. And the Balseraphs prove better Bannor then the Bannor themselves by, in perfectly regimented fashion, splitting off to encircle and annihilate you, not giving up the mimicry for even the briefest second.
I think I might have written a rough draft of the Mimic Pedia entry... unless the team has plans already.

I also see them holding the parody of whatever they've faced in every moment, even when nobody is watching. Mimics impersonating the Doviello would be just as fierce and wild as them, swinging the bodies of their fallen foes with ruthless brutality in battle and feasting as the Doviello do after the battle. Of course, everything would be a parody. If a Bannor ceremony required the lighting of a flame, the Balseraph version would do so with a fart. The Balseraph version of a Doviello feast would take almost as much influence from a hedonistic masquerade as it did a pagan feast; its centerpiece wouldn't be a roasted boar, but some stitched-together amalgamation of pig, cow, dog, and human parts. Ones who learned their tricks from Elohim monks would make ridiculous pilgrimages to various brothels as a real monk might to holy temples and give ridiculous but worthless trinkets to the poor of the Balseraph people where a real monk would give money.

Amazing that someone that was evidently created for no other reason than to give Balseraph players a chance to play without the insane trait could become such an amazing and interesting character in their own right.Actually, she was created before the Insane trait was. But after all the other leaders.

Actually, she was created before the Insane trait was. But after all the other leaders.

But wasn't the Insane trait planned at the time? I seem to recall Kael mentioning that she was added so that the Balseraphs wouldn't necessarily have to worry about the Insane trait.

Well, why she was created and why she was added could very well have been two different things. I'm not quite sure when Kael had decided on implementing insane, though it and Keelyn were suggested at about the same time, iirc.

Yes, but Perpentach might decide to take over your mind, sentence you to personality death, and then transfer his conciousness into your physical frame. Remember, he's an extremely powerful telepath. At least Keelyn won't violate that sanctity. She'll just have "Puppy" devour your soul or something. Actually, on second thought, could you just smuggle me a razor?



That's even creepier. I imagine that a boy she decides she likes could visit his girlfriend's house to find a scene reminiscent of Einon's 'pedia entry, except Keelyn is sitting there, too, puppetting the possessed body's mouth like a bad ventriloquist and saying stuff like, "Dur, I don't want to be your girlfriend anymore, 'cuz I'm all stupid and icky. Hee, hee!"
Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me she has no conception of what death actually is. If you notice, in her defeat quote, she's whining about how she's going to be unsummoned, which leads me to believe her childhood with demons have led her to believe that killing isn't bad because they just go back to some place else perfectly fine.

(Much info on Mimics snipped...)

I'm reserving judgement on the Mimics until there's unique art for them, but I like what you've come up with there.

This isn't really a question on history or culture, but seeing as this thread isn't super active I think we can take a short change in direction.

In a response to the game balance thread I put forth my argument that the game is more fun when you role play your civ. I used the specific example that while incredibly powerful, I never have Balseraph Druids because I don't think it is "in character" for the Balseraph civ to not be evil. Am I alone in this play style?

I'd like to hear your opinions on the subject, specificaly in regards to how you play as the Balseraph.

I agree overall, Balseraphs or not. Roleplaying is firmly a factor in how I play: the Seriously Evil Guys (Sheaim, Calabim) won't. Have. Order. Won't. Use. Public Healers. Likewise, I see no sense in the good guys going around backstabbing anyone: AV civs excluded, of course.
Or I'm playing a dwarven civ and meet the other: the way I see it, there should be a big hug somewhere down the line. Or I play Falamar: indulging female leaders seems the natural thing to do. The list could go on...

Re: roleplaying -- I really don't see the Balseraphs as that evil. Perpentach is mad and uncaring, but has a perverse sense of honor. And if Keelyn ever grew up and realized what she was doing, I think she'd be capable of reforming the Balseraphs as well.

In a response to the game balance thread I put forth my argument that the game is more fun when you role play your civ. I used the specific example that while incredibly powerful, I never have Balseraph Druids because I don't think it is "in character" for the Balseraph civ to not be evil. Am I alone in this play style?

I like justifying odd choices, like Overlords Elohim or Order Calabim. Still, I generally stick to roleplaying: I mostly attack people of a different religion, treat my allies with respect, etc.

That being said, I don't see how an alignment shift is out of character for anyone. I mean, the game's got built-in rules to handle alignment shifts, so there's no sense in claiming that they're illogical. Granted, Order Balseraphs do seem kind of odd, but aside from that, anything would make sense if you just said that they thought the religion looked fun.

I agree overall, Balseraphs or not. Roleplaying is firmly a factor in how I play: the Seriously Evil Guys (Sheaim, Calabim) won't. Have. Order. Won't. Use. Public Healers.

I've posted a thousand times before that Order Calabim are seriously awesome flavorwise (there's already precedent with the psychotically mad Basium getting bonuses for killing Good civs that don't join his war), so there's no sense in reiterating it now. Public Healers also makes some sense: You don't want your food do get spoiled, do you? Now, Order Sheaim takes a lot of work to justify (it can be done, but then again, so can Veil Elohim, if you really stretch), but thankfully that's a pretty counterintuitive combination anyway: You get bonuses for increasing the Armageddon Counter, not to mention synergy with the Veil Disciples, so trying to run that weird combination is an exercise is pain anyway.

And if Keelyn ever grew up and realized what she was doing, I think she'd be capable of reforming the Balseraphs as well.

If Keelyn ever grew up and realized what she was doing, I'd put good money on her falling all the way into truly sadistic evil rather than unknowing childish evil. People, as a rule, generally don't like to believe that their entire lives have been lies and that they're actions have been wrong this whole time. They're far more likely to justify their actions than they are to repent. That goes double when you've been raised by demons with very little interaction with actual human beings. I'm not saying it's impossible, though. I just like playing Devil's Advocate.

Mewtarthio: Far from me to deny the possibilities of Order Calabim both pratically and storytelling-wise; only I'd call that more varying the theme than roleplaying it.
Calabim leaders are coded as favoring OO (Flauros) or the AV (Alexis), which means in my eyes those are their most thematical choices. Likewise, Flauros has as favorite civic Fend for themselves. Now even if he didn't, Public Healers makes sense, but surely less than Sacrifice the weak. PH is also a compassionate civic, explicitly disapproved of by the Dynamic Duo, so in their... robes, I just would find it out of character(s). That the possibility is there is just replayability bonanza, but such changes IMO don't make nearly as much sense as, say, the FoL+Svartalfar combo (even though Faeryl is set to prefer CoE), which works great and looks by all means OK lore-wise.

You are kidding yourselves if you fall into the trap of not believing Perpentach is evil. That is exactly what he wants you to believe. Yes he has a twisted sense of honor, but he still uses clever wordplay and riddles to weasel his way out of promises.

People point to the Beeri Bawl 'pedia entry as proof Perp aint all bad. Well, I counter by saying he just kidnapped an an innocent man. Placed him in a cage and forced him to face the very real threat of agonizing death for NO OTHER REASON than because watching someone else's humiliation as though it was a game show amuses him. The fact that he let him go is irrelevant.


I don't know if any of you have read the Sword of Truth novels by Terry Goodkind,
*[mild spoiler ahead]* but I can draw a comparison for Keelyn in them. At a certain point in one of the novels the protagonist is kidnapped by a villian who has lived her whole life in a terrible environment and was raised to think she was worthless. As a byproduct of her environment during childhood she is a zealout of the bad guy's evil religion. She is their dark champion. She reminds me a lot of Keelyn. She is so sure that she is right, but the hero is able to slowly show her the fallacies of her beliefs. Slowly he breaks down her dark facade, instead of her breaking his will to resist the bad guy as was her plan. After being her prisoner for months the hero of course is able over time to make her see that she is better than what she has let herself become and eventually, she becomes one of the greatest heroes in the epic. She is also my favorite character in the story, but I think that has more to do with the fact that villians who become heroes are my favorite plot device in all of story telling.

Anyway, it is not outside the realm of possibility that Keelyn could be redeemed, but like that character I think it would take her being strangely protective of a particular puppet for reasons she can't explain until eventually she discovers she feels genuine love. The redemption of Keelyn would make an excellent story if that was something Kael ever had any kind of interest in pursuing. Unfortunately, happy endings don't occur very often in this world.

The ending of this story arc (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=65) has a sequence which seems very Balseraphic in nature: the fun and the humorous trappings hide the terror which lurks beneath. (The link takes you to the first of the three relevant comics.)

I don't know if any of you have read the Sword of Truth novels by Terry Goodkind,
*[mild spoiler ahead]* but I can draw a comparison for Keelyn in them. At a certain point in one of the novels the protagonist is kidnapped by a villian who has lived her whole life in a terrible environment and was raised to think she was worthless. As a byproduct of her environment during childhood she is a zealout of the bad guy's evil religion. She is their dark champion. She reminds me a lot of Keelyn. She is so sure that she is right, but the hero is able to slowly show her the fallacies of her beliefs. Slowly he breaks down her dark facade, instead of her breaking his will to resist the bad guy as was her plan. After being her prisoner for months the hero of course is able over time to make her see that she is better than what she has let herself become and eventually, she becomes one of the greatest heroes in the epic. She is also my favorite character in the story, but I think that has more to do with the fact that villians who become heroes are my favorite plot device in all of story telling.

Aye - there aren't many stories that can successfully turn an arch-villain (I think she deserves the story - she is "Death's Mistress" after all) into a hero without seeming cliché, but that one managed it.

EDIT: And *when* did Confessor get released and how did I not notice? Time for a trip to the bookshop tomorrow...
EDIT2: TV series of "Wizard's First Rule"..? Sam Raimi? Hmm...
EDIT3: (and yes, I did consider doing a Sword of Truth mod before I started on Fall Further)

Aye - there aren't many stories that can successfully turn an arch-villain (I think she deserves the story - she is "Death's Mistress" after all) into a hero without seeming cliché, but that one managed it.

EDIT: And *when* did Confessor get released and how did I not notice? Time for a trip to the bookshop tomorrow...
EDIT2: TV series of "Wizard's First Rule"..? Sam Raimi? Hmm...
EDIT3: (and yes, I did consider doing a Sword of Truth mod before I started on Fall Further)

You will love confessor! It was a great ending. Our favorite "Death's Mistress" figures prominantly. I think I actually put the Sword of Truth above both Jordan's Wheel of Time and Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire.

The ending of this story arc (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=65) has a sequence which seems very Balseraphic in nature: the fun and the humorous trappings hide the terror which lurks beneath. (The link takes you to the first of the three relevant comics.)

Creepy. I'm always happy to put my two years of high school espanol to use.

I sometimes think aside from loving bards so much I took an instant liking to the Balseraph because nothing terrifies me more than a clown and I do love to be scared. Roleplaying that which frightens you most can be quite cathartic. The same reason my favorite Clan from Vampire: The Masquerade was always the Malkavian and why I love to hate the Joker.

I see the Belseraphs as this:

There are the peasants, who try to keep their head down and not be noticed.
There are those who truly enjoy the Belseraph's reign of carnivals.
There are those who work for the carnivals
There are the saner ones; The normal people in the court, who try to keep Perp happy.
There are the insane ones; Perpentach, and a few of his higher court spring to mind.

And then there are the truly mad ones: People who think they can take advantage of their 'mad' king, and fail miserably, often driving themselves over the cliff of insanity in the end.
And the carnivals themselves: Endless carnivals. A city of lights and music. The Belseraphs may be insane, but you would never worry about it. You'd be trapped in the endless euphoria of the carnival.

Endless euphoria? Or endless terror?

Wow, I forgot about Gunnerkrigg. I haven't read it in like two years. This is a good day.

Endless euphoria? Or endless terror?

Depends entirely on your point of view. My motto is:

When you find yourself falling into madness. . . dive.

When you find yourself falling into madness. . . dive.


A quote I often end up taking that literally these days...:crazyeye:

Is Perpentach truly evil or simply insane? There is a difference. Evil implies that he is willingly evil, that he has full understanding of what he's doing and he's making conscious decisions to do so. If the mind making those decisions is unhealthy, it's not his fault. The case of him freeing Beeri Bawl perhaps shows that, while inclined to acts of evil, he does not quite recognise that they are evil and is still capable of spontaneously doing good. Most of the time his chaotic, selfish decisions will result in more bad than good, though; and he's never consistent. One day a man might get away with stealing a loaf of bread, the next he might be made a duke, the next he might be painted blue and launched off a cliff from a catapult.

HE, himself, is truly evil... the other multitudes of minds copied within his own are not necessarily evil.

He is a poor helpless child suffering from mental disabilities (probably close to autism) made worse by his uncontrolled magical ability. It isn't really his fault that the only one capable of raising such a child (Kyorlin) found him so late, and was still a very evil mage.


This isn't to say that he isn't evil, just that he has good reason to be.

He is a poor helpless child suffering from mental disabilities (probably close to autism) made worse by his uncontrolled magical ability. It isn't really his fault that the only one capable of raising such a child (Kyorlin) found him so late, and was still a very evil mage.

Yes. An Jonas is just a tribal cheftain doing what his god told him to do, and Tebryn is just a cowardly old man doing his best to avoid torment, and Hyborem is just an entity with the misfortune to be created out of pure evil incapable of understanding morality. The fact is, everybody has a reason for their actions. The fact that Perpentach is insane does not make him any less evil in the world of FfH.

Yes. An Jonas is just a tribal cheftain doing what his god told him to do, and Tebryn is just a cowardly old man doing his best to avoid torment, and Hyborem is just an entity with the misfortune to be created out of pure evil incapable of understanding morality. The fact is, everybody has a reason for their actions. The fact that Perpentach is insane does not make him any less evil in the world of FfH.

Hahaha. Well said. Poor little Hyborem, he was just born with a heart two sizes too small.

MC- you have access to a lot more of the back story than I do, so it may be that you just have more info on Perpy than I do. Looking at his 'pedia entry though it doesn't really explain just how crazy he was to begin with, only that he was using his mind magic to coerce the entire staff into giving him their undivided attention at the expense of the other inmates. He could very well have known exactly what he was doing.

I go by the hypothesis that he is not truly insane, he just has access to so much information and is listening to so many voices that everyone else perceives his actions as being random, when in fact he has an actual agenda. Or, if you prefer, he be mad, yet there be method in it.

His mind kept a residual bit of personality from everyone whom he used his mind magic on. With some, this would fade, but with those he had prolonged or deeper contact, like his parents, this became a permanent thing, and as a child it left him quite bonkerss, unable to discern his own ideas from those of the minds he'd copied.

He's a bit more in control later in life, after he's had time to grow more as a person in relative peace. But then, the voices are also more numerous, so it's probably not much better.

Are you sure it sometimes faded? I thought he had a complete copy of everyone on whom he had ever used mind magic, and that as a child he didn't know enough about his powers to refrain from using them on everyone he met.

i thought so too, from the word of Kael himself... he has complete copies of everyone he's met, and two of Kylorin.

Well... everyone he met sure seems outrageous to me, living in a city of a thriving empire, that would be some thousands before he even meets Kylorin. So I'd posit either something like I said before (which might contradict his entry, I don't remember how it is worded) or else people that he meets that aren't meaningful are there but in a background sort of way, whereas people he expects to have some contact with his mind brings regularly to the forefront of his consciousness.

[ ( Power of the Individual ) * ( Contact Time ) ] ^ ( Emotional Link between the two )


There, that means that certain people are VERY prominent, because they were strong, and there were bonds of hatred, even though only around them briefly (a battle). Others are quite prominent because he spent a great deal of time with them (Parents, coupled with at least a 1 way bond of love/fear). While most people are quite a fleeting encounter, with almost no personal power, and about whom Perp couldn't care less. Thus while he might retain them, he retains it about as well as you retain the knowledge of which shirt you wore on the second Monday of last month.

[ ( Power of the Individual ) * ( Contact Time ) ] ^ ( Emotional Link between the two )


There, that means that certain people are VERY prominent, because they were strong, and there were bonds of hatred, even though only around them briefly (a battle). Others are quite prominent because he spent a great deal of time with them (Parents, coupled with at least a 1 way bond of love/fear). While most people are quite a fleeting encounter, with almost no personal power, and about whom Perp couldn't care less. Thus while he might retain them, he retains it about as well as you retain the knowledge of which shirt you wore on the second Monday of last month.

So the din of Perpentach's mind mostly consists of a handful of powerful voices giving advice, set to a background of constant chatter by untold legions of people. Like constantly being in a crowd, even when you're alone... but worse, because you're the center of attention
I doubt Perentach gets much sleep.

Man that would be awful. So do the other voices ever "take control" or do they just offer advice? Or, does he feel a compulsion to do what the voices tell him or does he have the coherence to know what is is own thoughts and those of his echoes?

I don't think they can take control but they can really confuse him, sometimes tricking him into doing things. He used to try to suppress them (which he was never good at without Kyorlin's help) but he has pretty much given up on that.

And never forget that quite a few (probably most) of the voices do NOT like Perpentach. So it isn't like being in a party and having some friends try to advise you. It is like being in a Moshpit, strapped to the floor.

And of course, many of the voices don't like EACH OTHER, so when they get bored with pestering Perp, they pick on one another instead.

So the din of Perpentach's mind mostly consists of a handful of powerful voices giving advice, set to a background of constant chatter by untold legions of people. Like constantly being in a crowd, even when you're alone... but worse, because you're the center of attention
I doubt Perentach gets much sleep.

I imagine that's the reason he chose the carnival theme. He'd grown up mostly isolated, either as a lonely child or studying with Kylorin, so he'd have had little to distract him from the constant chatter save for Kylorin's training. When he acquired the Momo's mind, however, he'd have learned about the circus: A constant cacophony of endless distractions, a loud noise that could even drown out the sound of his own mind. That may well have been the most distracting thing he could think of at the time (save for an all-out war, at least), and once he got his theme going, every other mind he touched merely reinforced his beliefs. That's also probably the real reason behind his apparently random actions: He wants to keep things fresh and new, because if the circus ever bores him, he'll be forced to confront the voices in his mind.

I'm not sure how he goes about sleeping. I imagine he's already used his mind magic to limit the amount of sleep he actually needs (sleep is, after all, primarily a psychological drive to conserve energy when you shouldn't be active anyway). Perhaps he just keeps himself awake for days on end, then eventually goes to a party and passes out, resting while the crowd continues to rave above him.

I thought is was generally agreed that sleep has more to do with the brain organizing the information acquired during the waking hours (reinforcing some synapses and weakening other, so as to facilitate learning) than simply saving bodily energy. It sounds like something he would need a lot of, although I'm not sure how much it could help in such an extreme case.

Maybe he simply keeps his host body awake and active until it eventually gives out on him and he switches to a new host?

He wants to keep things fresh and new, because if the circus ever bores him, he'll be forced to confront the voices in his mind.

Well put! That's a great way to describe him.

Maybe he simply keeps his host body awake and active until it eventually gives out on him and he switches to a new host?

Hence the jester getup. All jesters have been the same person throughout time, so to speak, so he paints the new body and there's no difference from the last.

I thought is was generally agreed that sleep has more to do with the brain organizing the information acquired during the waking hours (reinforcing some synapses and weakening other, so as to facilitate learning) than simply saving bodily energy. It sounds like something he would need a lot of, although I'm not sure how much it could help in such an extreme case.

It's a little of both, actually. Creatures that are awake for much longer than they need to be tend to wander off and get eaten, plus there's no need to be more active if you're already perfectly capable of surviving long enough to mate, so there's an evolutionary benefit to staying in bed even when you don't physically need more sleep. Hence why you can stay up late studying while drinking coffee without suffering as much as if you'd decided to skip dinner.

It's a little of both, actually. Creatures that are awake for much longer than they need to be tend to wander off and get eaten, plus there's no need to be more active if you're already perfectly capable of surviving long enough to mate, so there's an evolutionary benefit to staying in bed even when you don't physically need more sleep. Hence why you can stay up late studying while drinking coffee without suffering as much as if you'd decided to skip dinner.

Well, I said "more," not only.

I disagree about the last part. The effects of deprivation may be more less obvious (at first), but sleep is often more important than eating. Humans can go 40 days with no food without lasting adverse effects (once when I was quite young my dad fasted for 40 days eating nothing and drinking nothing but water, and even went jogging frequently during this period, and he is fine. He did it again about 4 years ago, but that time used had meal replacement drinks.), but the record for staying awake is 11 days. Sleep deprivation has serious health risks (both mental and physical), while near-starvation has been shown to increase longevity.

It's a little of both, actually. Creatures that are awake for much longer than they need to be tend to wander off and get eaten, plus there's no need to be more active if you're already perfectly capable of surviving long enough to mate, so there's an evolutionary benefit to staying in bed even when you don't physically need more sleep. Hence why you can stay up late studying while drinking coffee without suffering as much as if you'd decided to skip dinner.

I think the 'sleep as preservation' theory has too many holes in it. Top predators likes bears and large cats sleep the most, but they don't have anything higher than them on the food chain. In theory, they would sleep less than other organism. Also, a sleeping animal is unaware of its surroundings and can more easily be surprised and eaten (not so much for animals that dwell in caves or other things, but many animals just sleep in the open or in the ocean).

I remember from when I visisted the navy's dolphin training program that their dolphins had an extra 10 or so year lifespan over wild dolphins. They had determined that the dolphins were able to sleep better in captivity (dolphins have extremely abnormal sleep patterns - they sleep only half their brain at a time) and this was the primary cause of their increased lifespans, since sleep is so important to the brain and other bodily functions. Dolphins aren't humans but the affects of sleep should be similar. It has been shown with humans too that getting a certain amount of good sleep is vital for the brain and that human lifespans are also affected by sleep patterns. Of course, one could argue that this grew out of originally merely the need for preservation.

Meh, on second thought, it seems I've got no clue what I'm talking about. Sorry for the derailment.

Meh, on second thought, it seems I've got no clue what I'm talking about. Sorry for the derailment.

Ah, I didn't mean it like that. I'm sorry if I came off sounding harsh or adversarial. The preservation theory is a legit theory, you do know what you are talking about. I just disagree with it.

Ah, I didn't mean it like that. I'm sorry if I came off sounding harsh or adversarial. The preservation theory is a legit theory, you do know what you are talking about. I just disagree with it.

Well, it's still a derailment. I mean, here we are, arguing about whether or not an insane telepathic clown who learned magic from the First Mage needs as much sleep as normal people. :rolleyes:

If I wanted to play Devil's advocate and offer a contrary hypothesis I would say it could be that he loves sleep because that is the only time his brain belongs completely to himself.

I actually have a rather interesting image of Perpentach's nights that I think I'll write down in story format.

It was always those nights Minister Koun dreaded the most. During the daylight hours, Perpentach was horrifying enough. But come these nights, and the mad king would suddenly become much more serious.
It was rare Perpentach needed sleep; a horrfiying mixture of herbs, mind magic, and possibly worse kept Perpentach awake for weeks on end. But even he needed to sleep sometimes.
Perpentach laid on his bed, looking more like a tragic clown then a mad jester. No words were spoken, no rhymes were exchanged. Perpentach nodded. Koun chained his king to his bed; one chain around each limb, and one around the waist. Then Perpentach closed his eyes. For a brief moment, he looked peaceful... then he screamed.
He began gibbering. Fragments of his words were understandable... "mommy, where are you?" "I'll kill you myself, ya Agares-damned clown!" "Please, just let me die!" Most of it was nonsense, countless voices trying to have their say. And Perpentach's body thrashed about this whole time, straining the chains with the strength of one who does not feel pain. "One of his better nights," Koun thought.
But then Perpentach's body lay still. Then the king spoke softly. "Dear Koun, my sleep is done. Let me free, let's have some fun!" But Koun did not move. He kept a careful eye on the king. "My dear Koun, do as I say. If you do not, you shall pay." Again, Koun ignored Perpentach. "Let me loose this instant," Perpentach screamed, "or you will suffer beyond all comprehension!" Koun smiled slightly. "You need to work on your poetry," Koun said to whatever mind had tried to take over Perpentach's body while he slept. And then he sighed. This was going to be a long night...

A really, really nice fragment KC.

Perpentach and his ability remind me of Alia Atreides sooo much...

:yup:

For those who don't know about Dune, here's the info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_%28Dune%29).

That was really cool KC!

That was really cool KC!

A really, really nice fragment KC.

Thank you. I feel like the little guy in this smiley: :pat:

But, anyways. What do you make of Perpentach's inner court? I imagine many of his court members would be quick-thinking but stable hedonists, seeking not power (such aspirations would be lethal with a telepathic, murderous jester) but merely hoping to enjoy the pleasures of this world by serving their king well enough to be rewarded. But they might be truly loyal to him in a perverse way. After all, Perpentach knows their darkest desires, and he can deliver them. Who wouldn't be loyal to a man who, despite his instability, has the power to make your wildest dreams come true, if you make it worth his time? I've always seen the Balseraphs as a nation of hedonism as much as of madness.

Oh I have no doubt hedonism is the national pastime for the Balseraph. Even slaves born and raised in [Balseria?] must have their own festivals to celebrate the pleasures of the flesh before their short lives are wasted.

I need some ideas for Balseraph holidays or festivals for my own D&D game I plan to run when 4th Ed finally comes out.

Perpentach's birthday (clebrated haphazardly, sometimes twice a month)

The Forum (An annual festival where the major playwrites present their latest tales for the stage, Perpy chooses a winner who then may choose a single actor from each of the other production companies to join their company. Entertainment being the major driving force in this society having more of the most popular actors under your control is a huge deal.)

Fool's Day- (the first day of spring, much like our own April Fools Day except much more mean spirited and the pranks tend to go way too far.)

There's a bit from Opeth's new album that, when I heard it, sounded so Balseraphy.

It's 10 a.m., everyone's still passed out from last night's festival. Outside the sun shines hot, and one musician with smeared and ruined facepaint sits in the dirt in front of a small tent. He picks up the guitar next to him and begins playing:

http://www.thrashsquatch.com/opeth_burden.mp3

It has been shown with humans too that getting a certain amount of good sleep is vital for the brain and that human lifespans are also affected by sleep patterns.

So the question is, do you want to be awake for 20% longer now, when you are young. Or do you want to spend more years as a senile old lump of meat?

That was a cool entry KillerClowns, if I had a place for it Id definitly put it in (with a name changed, Koun is actually a Grigori minister). If you feel inspired to do any more FfH inspired writing you should definitly post it.

KillerClowns, that entry was awesome! there are a lot of blank pedia entries that im sure you could bring to life also. i think it could be used for the domination spell. perhaps as giving some of the negative effects if used too often?

I really dig the idea of the mimic unit. It adds a cool unique touch to the martial class of the Balseraph. The best Balseraph warriors are the Gladiators who adapt to any situation and learn by studying their opponants in the arena. This helps them maintain the adoration of the crowd. I have often wished there was a way to reward units who survive several attempts at the arena with unique promotions, but it would just encourage re-loading.

In Art of War: Rome (exact title I forget) those who survive the arena have extra hit points and the ability to hide in plain sight. Might be better for D&D than civ but still interesting.

. . . also note that those gypsy wagons are basically smuggling / prostitution networks. The revelers do quite well as organized crime.

Haha! Thanks evenb, THATS who Perpentach reminded me of! Ahah!

Wondering about Keelyn's entry: it mentions that some Balseraph councilors had met together to see which of Perpentach's decrees they had to carry out and which they could subvert. Does this perhaps indicate a bunch of rational and compassionate men near the top rank of Balseraph society, trying to keep down the madness as much as they can? Or are their subversions self-serving, each trying to gain power and wealth for themselves at each opportunity?

Wondering about Keelyn's entry: it mentions that some Balseraph councilors had met together to see which of Perpentach's decrees they had to carry out and which they could subvert. Does this perhaps indicate a bunch of rational and compassionate men near the top rank of Balseraph society, trying to keep down the madness as much as they can? Or are their subversions self-serving, each trying to gain power and wealth for themselves at each opportunity?
Given the setting, the latter explanation is probably closer to the truth, I'm guessing. Not a whole lot of selflessness in Erebus...

I would be shocked if the Balseraph "nobility" were not totally self serving in their thoughts and deeds. Their culture just does not encourage altruism.

Wondering about Keelyn's entry: it mentions that some Balseraph councilors had met together to see which of Perpentach's decrees they had to carry out and which they could subvert. Does this perhaps indicate a bunch of rational and compassionate men near the top rank of Balseraph society, trying to keep down the madness as much as they can? Or are their subversions self-serving, each trying to gain power and wealth for themselves at each opportunity?

As I read it, they're just trying to avert anything particularly disasterous. For instance, if Perpentach one day decides that the advancing Bannor army should have a party thrown in their honor, and the gates of all border cities opened to let them in, they might poison the wine. If he demands an entire castle carved out of ice, they might comission a scale model of a castle and hope that the workmanship alone is enough to sate him.

Yes, that's the picture I at least want to get. Balseraphia might be depraved, but Perpentach, as far as I can tell, is the only one actually insane. So were there need I could see a few upper-level courtiers trying as best they can behind the scenes to rig the country out for their, and hence everybody else's, survival and even comfort. Keelyn of course throws a wrench in all this, so I doubt it happens as often as they would like, but even then, the society has to have some way to keep running. Witness also the comments of the advisors when Perpentach releases B. Bawl.

While Perpy's advisers may not be insane by Balseraph standards, that isn't to say that if removed from that circumstance and placed within the social clime of our society they wouldn't be mad as a hatter. Almost everything in life is determined by perspective.

Given the setting, the latter explanation is probably closer to the truth, I'm guessing. Not a whole lot of selflessness in Erebus...

Exactly. Rational, more or less; compassionate? Very very rarely. (But every civ has it's exceptions.)

Exactly. Rational, more or less; compassionate? Very very rarely. (But every civ has it's exceptions.)

Well, I'm sure there are a lot of compassionate Elohim. Ethne strikes me as the kind of girl who wouldn't ever sacrifice a life even if it served the greater good.

Also, I would assume some days Perpy might just pardon everyone in his dungeon just for a laugh. Or maybe punish someone by taking their life one day, but someone else commits the same crime tommorrow and he may just get a slap on the wrist.

Or he might randomly change punishments for crime, say, for instance, five people steal loves of bread on the same day. The first gets his hand cut off, the second is painted blue and green and made to plant corn on roofs and let go, the third is made a governor of a new colony, the fourth is pardoned, and the fifth is mauled by wild lepers.

Wilde Lepers?

Jyst a thought that Perpentach might have.

Well, I'm sure there are a lot of compassionate Elohim. Ethne strikes me as the kind of girl who wouldn't ever sacrifice a life even if it served the greater good. I'm sorry, I thought we were specifically talking about Balseraph advisors.

I'm note really sure where the Ethne/Elohim reference ca0em from either.



I'd expect that punishments for stealing bread might also include being baked into bread, being forced to eat bread until your stomach burst, having your home replaced by a giant gingerbread house, and being given a cake which you later are told you're children had been baked into (which may or may not be true. If false, you might be told before you ate it.)

@ Magister Cultuum: Even Better!

My mistake! I just misread your post to imply Erebus as a whole.

A lot of this conversation begs the question of just how much influence Perp has on such mundane matters as a bread thief? Does he really have his hand in every decision made or does he leave things like that up to his advisers?

No prob.
What matters Perp deigns to take a personal hand in probably depends on the age & size of his empire. Later he couldn't have a hand in every suchmatter, but unlike others who would probably be consistent with what was delegated and to who, you can never be sure with him.

Well, I see him as beging a bit of a micro-manager, atleast, when it suits him.

Okay, I just got an event which had companits filed against my minister of agriculture, saying she was painting cows and planting corn on roof tops, with the Baleraph option beging to fire the conmaliants and say the minister was the onlyone doing it right.

I imagine that just how closely Perp micros his empire relates to just which voices have his mental ear at the moment. Since (I believe, from his bio) he has the potential to be in multiple places at once, he could easily inhabit the minds of all of his governors and lords and oversee his empire. Wether he wants to or not depends on how he feels.

As for how he structures the voices, It seems that it would be abit like the mentalscapes from psychonauts, with a new person being added to the sea of people in his mental kingdom each time he intrudes into a mind. I reason this because in his bio, it says he sent Old Akyrlon (cant remember/spell the name) to the farthest edges of his mind and created a kingdom of the psyches.

As for if/when he sleeps, I think KC's story fragment illustrates it best.

KC's story thread brought up some interesting thoughts on religion. What do you guys see as the everyday role of religion in Balseraph lands? I'd especially love to hear MC expand on his statement of Balseraph Mammon worship.

What would a balseraph ambassador look like and act like? Would he be dressed as a clown or would he appear normal? Considering theirs is the nation that's the most culturally seductive how would such ambassadors show this?

Probably very elaborate versions of their host country's fine dress, in bright, unusual colors. They would have polite but exaggerated mannerisms and strange character quirks that grew over time. Always including a rhyming couplet at the end of their speeches at first, until ultimately they are only speaking verses from famous plays in sing-song voices. Then they will be recalled, a new ambassador sent with apologies for his predecessor's behavior, and the cycle will begin again with a new bizzare quirk.

Just a thought.

What would a balseraph ambassador look like and act like? Would he be dressed as a clown or would he appear normal? Considering theirs is the nation that's the most culturally seductive how would such ambassadors show this?It would vary widely I think. If the Balseraphs don't think they have much chance of success of getting concessions from the host country, they would probably send a clownish ambassador. Just serious enough so as not to be thrown out immediately, but lots of subtle mockery in terms of attire and manners. For example, if the Bannor wear dark colored clothing in a conservative cut (like the Puritans did in the early American Colonial period), the Balseraph ambassador would wear a similar cut of clothing, but the inner linings of coat, cloak, and the vest would be brightly colored fabric. Initially, the attire and behavior should be similar enough to what the hosts consider proper that they might think the ambassador is making a sincere attempt at diplomacy, but doesn't quite "get" the culture he is visiting. As time passes, the deliberate parody of the host nation would become more and more obvious, until only the most naive nation (*Koff* Elohim *Koff*) would continue to give the ambassador the benefit of the doubt.

Now if the Balseraphs have some hope of winning the host country over, then they'd take a politer approach, but one that shows that Balseraph culture is superior and it is to the host's advantage to trade or ally with them. The ambassador would probably wear whatever is currently in fashion in Jubilee, but modify his/her manners to whatever the hosts find polite. The ambassador would slowly introduce bits of Balseraph culture to the host country, through conversation or parties that the ambassador throws at the embassy, always placing emphasis on the novel and exotic. The ambassador would have to always keep his audience "hungry": give them enough taste of Balseraph entertainments to keep them wanting more, but not enough to sate them or scare them off (in the case of the more ... unusual ... Balseraph vices).

Incidentally, Your Grace, how goes your pursuit of the English throne? ;)

Would not Perp just split his mind amongst all his ambassadors and play with foreign leaders himself?

If not then he sends what will cause the most chaos. Stuffy Bannor? He sends his most beautiful courtesan. Faithless Grigori? A snakeoil salesman evangelist. Proud Calabim? A freed slave.

Or he just sends skilled bureaucrats who are good at their jobs, then laughs as he watches his suspicious enemies try to determine if they are really what they seem.

It would vary widely I think. If the Balseraphs don't think they have much chance of success of getting concessions from the host country, they would probably send a clownish ambassador.

If the Balseraphs have some hope of winning the host country over, then they'd take a politer approach, but one that shows that Balseraph culture is superior and it is to the host's advantage to trade or ally with them.

I'd agree with that- I was thinking about how they'd show the rest of Erebus what was best about their culture. It's only because Its one way I feel the cultural shifts are done- I know it's also about who has the most temples, carnivals and theatres, yet human cages attract others too if you think about it! Many of the Balseraph cultural buildings aren't exactly the sort of thing you can imagine the Bannor would go for (why is it we always pick on them by the way?) Also has anyone given thought to what it is gypsy wagons do that reduces culture? Try not to just slate gypises when you reply mind.

Incidentally, Your Grace, how goes your pursuit of the English throne? ;)

You have to be the first person to know who he is, I take my hat off to you sir. He's my all time fave person from history and just goes to show what a lot of good a bad element can cause. :bowdown: :king:

Well if I recall correctly Gypsy Wagons don't simply reduce culture, they reduce the city owner's culture while increasing the Balseraph culture in the same city. So it isn't so much that they reduce culture so much as change it or perhaps subvert it.

Perhaps it's because people watch the freak shows and start to like it. Just a little taste of what in store when the real circus comes to town.
The wagon reduces the culture by one, gives you +1:gold: and also -1:gp: I was just wondering what it is they are doing to cause off of this. The money- do we think they are stealing or charging admission fees? I buy the subverting the culture idea, I'm curious about the great person reduction too.

The great person reduction is simple enough. The Balseraph are like TV. And how many people who lounge around watching TV wind up becoming the next Da'Vinci?

Or they are called thewyrm lurking around the lore part of these forums and are trying explaining to / decive us on how the other balseraph ambasadors whould be like. :p ;)

Fun thing that Perkin Warbeck asked the question what an Balseraph ambassador whould look like with the one posting right before him asking said question just beeing such one addmitedly and on free will. Just look at his title. ;)

:lol:
Hahaha- so that answers my question perfectly then! Just read what thewyrm says and watch how he changes the thread direction at a whim to fully understand. Perfect answer! :lol:

I'd agree with that- I was thinking about how they'd show the rest of Erebus what was best about their culture. It's only because Its one way I feel the cultural shifts are done- I know it's also about who has the most temples, carnivals and theatres, yet human cages attract others too if you think about it! Many of the Balseraph cultural buildings aren't exactly the sort of thing you can imagine the Bannor would go for (why is it we always pick on them by the way?) Why the Bannor? Because they are an easy target, being grim and humorless. They have just cause to be that way, but it still makes them the butt of the joke.

As for the human cages ... look at the side shows in 19th century U.S. circuses. It's the same idea, it was just those unfortunates had no other job options and so stayed willingly.

You have to be the first person to know who he is, I take my hat off to you sir. He's my all time fave person from history and just goes to show what a lot of good a bad element can cause. :bowdown: :king:Thank you. Can't take full credit though. I'd seen the name before in a work of fiction, as the title of a play and with an attributed quote. I'd assumed the author had made up the name and quotation. When I saw your user name, it made me wonder if the person was historical, so I looked him up. And lo! A historical personage, and a pretender to the throne of England!

Actually the free flowing and transitory nature is my favorite aspect of this thread, and it meshes with the Balseraph theme of chaos very well.

Looks like version 0.33 is going to have a lot of changes for the Balseraph. Anyone care to share their thoughts?

Woo, Loki's going to be more useful past the early game! Shame on the loss of Mutate though, I always relied on that in the early game to get boosted warriors. Nothing like a Cannibal Blitz 5/4 warrior on turn 1 :D

Also, Balseraph mages are going to be absolutely amazing now if the Puppet works as I think it does. If it's a permanent summon, then you basically get disposable mages to send with your stacks or raiders while keeping your actual mages safe, as well as 2 casts per mage per turn. Even if it's just temporary you still get extended effective range for your mages.

Freak shows... depends on whether Human/Orc/Elf/Dwarf cages are still around. if so, sweet, if not, oh well, the other changes seem to make up for it. Balseraph druids are getting nerfed due to the Domination changes, but that was necessary and we all knew it was coming anyway.

Just like in the game i've just been playing, doesn't it really spoil the whole thins when the Balseraphs convert to the Order and and become a 'good' civ, as if they've all decided to put all the theatrics and the decadence behind then and start petting bunny rabits and preaching law and order, it would be like if Marilyn Manson converted to christianity and turned into a Christian rock band. A crying shame

The Balseraphs following Order is like Disneyland as an actual kingdom.

Welcome to the Magic Kingdom! Step right this way for a safe, family friendly ride. If you don't proceed in an orderly fashion and enjoy yourself, we'll kill you.

Every night our leader has a Magic light parade. Stand outside and watch it. Or we'll kill you.

Enjoy pirates of the Lanun isles. Point and laugh as magically animated mock ups try desperately to catch that rascal Falamar. Or we'll kill you.

The Calabim inspired Haunted Manor will leave you terrified. Watch your necks as our scary vampires fly through the air. Or we'll kill you.

Welcome to our sister theme park, Erebus Adventure. In our signature ride "Soaring Over Erebus" we simulate the feeling of gliding over such landmarks as the Hastur Cliffs and the Grigi Plains. We even pipe in the luxurious smells of fruit as we sour through the Umbralwood and fly past Yggdrasil. Please wear your seat belt and keep your belongings in the compartment below you. Or we'll kill you.

Very scary, very Balseraph, but it would make a great place for Perp to find some new victims.

Im curious, since the way Balseraph puppets work is changing (extened range/immunities becomes multiple copies of the caster) how exactly WOULD it work in terms of fluff? What bars and eater of dreams or a Amurite Archmage from copying themselves and playing pupetteer? Is it just extremely esoteric Balserian knowledge? Perpentach's mind magic given to the strongest of his mages? Keelyn's knowledge of summoning and control? A bizzare mix of the two former?

I think it most likely that the puppet itself is not "summoned" exactly. They have puppets that they carry with them and use their knowledge of mind magic to "infuse" their puppets with mental ability. Possibly even breaking the minds of their slaves and them transplanting them into the puppet's wooden body.

Or they have the ability to summon (by summon, I mean call from, say, the spellcaster workshop/home/pocket dimmension) their puppets with, say a magic pendant or something (in the lore only), then mentaly bond with the puppet.

I think it most likely that the puppet itself is not "summoned" exactly. They have puppets that they carry with them and use their knowledge of mind magic to "infuse" their puppets with mental ability. Possibly even breaking the minds of their slaves and them transplanting them into the puppet's wooden body.

Doubtless these puppets are made by a very special method, one that the Balseraphs would sooner die then divulge. And perhaps it is something about the Balseraph mind that allows them, and them alone, to infuse their creations with life. A certain, let us say, mystical resonance from Balseraph spellcasters that other civilizations cannot reproduce.

The Balseraphs following Order is like Disneyland as an actual kingdom.

Welcome to the Magic Kingdom! Step right this way for a safe, family friendly ride. If you don't proceed in an orderly fashion and enjoy yourself, we'll kill you.

Every night our leader has a Magic light parade. Stand outside and watch it. Or we'll kill you.

Enjoy pirates of the Lanun isles. Point and laugh as magically animated mock ups try desperately to catch that rascal Falamar. Or we'll kill you.

The Calabim inspired Haunted Manor will leave you terrified. Watch your necks as our scary vampires fly through the air. Or we'll kill you.

Welcome to our sister theme park, Erebus Adventure. In our signature ride "Soaring Over Erebus" we simulate the feeling of gliding over such landmarks as the Hastur Cliffs and the Grigi Plains. We even pipe in the luxurious smells of fruit as we sour through the Umbralwood and fly past Yggdrasil. Please wear your seat belt and keep your belongings in the compartment below you. Or we'll kill you.

Dangit, thewyrm, now I'm just going to feel empty inside next time I visit disneyland, as it so pales next to Erebus land.

So Somnium is pretty cool, and After reading the Gambling House 'Pedia entry I got to thinking about what the "House Rules" in Balseraph lands would be.

My immediate thought is that the Wheel of Fortune card has to be inserted into the Balseraph deck. My initial view of what it would do is re-shuffle each player's highest and lowest card and then re-distribute them randomly amongst each player.

So Somnium is pretty cool, and After reading the Gambling House 'Pedia entry I got to thinking about what the "House Rules" in Balseraph lands would be.

My immediate thought is that the Wheel of Fortune card has to be inserted into the Balseraph deck. My initial view of what it would do is re-shuffle each player's highest and lowest card and then re-distribute them randomly amongst each player.

Out of the blue, I say if Somnium is ever released seperately, it should have 'house rule' variants.
But I imagine reproducing the Balseraph variant for computer would be... difficult, since the game would be a bit more direct. Cups could be obtained from your foe... if you could stomach drinking that many shots of Balseraph whiskey. (Which is illegal in most of Erebus due to the its special "herbal mix," and occasionally used by the Svartalfar as a poison.) You could challenge one of your swords against one of theirs, resulting in a physical fight with the owner of the higher card being granted an advantage; challenging a seven with a three, if accepted by both parties, might mean the three would literally fight with a hand tied behind his back. Wands or pentacles could be challenged for in a game of wits. Wands would be riddles, delivered by a third party, and pentacles would be games of logic like (but not as long as) chess. Again, high card would hold the advantage. The high wand would get a hint as to the riddle's answer, the high pentacle would get a better starting position for the game. I can't think of any other "house rules" that the Balseraphs would have, but I'm sure they would be just as... interesting.
Dying during a game of Somnium, coincidentally, would be an automatic win, to make sure the swords challenges don't get out of hand... and those desperate to win could do so by suicide. Unfortunately, Gregory Deathclaw's 'victory' in the Somnium Championships of Year 74 of Rebirth remains one of the most controversial in Balseraph sporting history. Some insist that, since technically, he became a lich afterwards, he didn't really die during the game.

I have to say, I miss the gypsy caravans. Not because they were useful, but because they were such a great flavor unit. I love the idea of roving carnivals going from city to city, leaving every city they pass through a changed placed.

I imagine after the carnival leaves town, the other civs realize just how drab and lifeless their town really is. The men who's hearts were stolen by a dancer, children who were mesmerized by the animal handlers, old maids treated like young beauties for the first time in their lives, and I swear no one has seen [insert town person's name] since they left.

I wish I were a better writer, because I think a wandering Balseraph Carnival has the makings for an excellent series of stories.

One thing that I find really funny is that she's about the closest FFH has come to a "fairy-tale princess" :lol:

You mean, Demon-Tale princess

Actually, she might end up leading a civillization of misfit demons who were too weak to fight for themselves in the Infernal society. That'd be quite a crazy civ, made up of misfits from everywhere.

I always think of Keelyn, rather than being the one corrupted by the demons, is instead the one doing the corrupting. Or rather, just be being in her presence demons find their moralities shifting. Maybe its hereditary and due to her heritage, maybe she is charasmatic. But I see her as the one subplanting more human emotions (both positive and negative) into her summoned servants.

I always think of Keelyn, rather than being the one corrupted by the demons, is instead the one doing the corrupting. Or rather, just be being in her presence demons find their moralities shifting. Maybe its hereditary and due to her heritage, maybe she is charasmatic. But I see her as the one subplanting more human emotions (both positive and negative) into her summoned servants.

This is pretty much how I see her too. I have wrote up some fiction with her, she makes a great periphery character. Her affinity for demon control should never be explained. The mystery surrounding it is a large reason for her coolness.

I do have one concrete belief that I will maintain unless Kael himself says otherwise. Giggles obeys her and protects her of his own free will. He genuinely "loves" her.

This is pretty much how I see her too. I have wrote up some fiction with her, she makes a great periphery character. Her affinity for demon control should never be explained. The mystery surrounding it is a large reason for her coolness.

I do have one concrete belief that I will maintain unless Kael himself says otherwise. Giggles obeys her and protects her of his own free will. He genuinely "loves" her.

Hmm... Well... Her father was a great mind mage, and he was constantly getting copies of other people's minds in his head. What if his daughter was the extact opposite, but only with outsiders. That rather than getting a copy of their conscience, she imparts partial copies of her own conscience unto them, mentally opening the metaphorical door to a wider range of emotions and change?

Basically this is a shameless bump because I love this thread too much to let it slip to page 2.

Whenever I play as the Balseraph I play as Perpy because Insanity is just so much fun. It kinda sucks that I miss out on Keelyn's puppets of doom. I always finding myself wishing that Keelyn was the Balseraph hero rather than a leader.

Perhaps if I get on my hands and knees and beg Kael will make her a controllable character in one of the scenarios?

I suspect that both her and Perp will be quite active in the first few scenarios.

Totally random, but my brain was wandering when it ocurred to me... Ethne the White and Keelyn have something in common. Both are princesses who were originally sheltered from the outside world. The details differed; Ethne's father was overprotective, Keelyn's had forgotten she existed. But Ethne was relatively unaffected by her being sheltered for so long, and indeed became a just and merciful ruler. Keelyn... not so much.
There's also the difference in how they ended up in the real world and on the world stage. Ethne was following a wounded animal out of the kindness of her heart, and were it not for that bird, would have probably lived in her dream world indefinitely. A girl who knew nothing of evil would have made a poor ruler. I'm thinking her old man wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer... Keelyn, meanwhile, blasted her way onto the world stage with a Balor. Say what you will about Keelyn, she is clearly not someone you should trifle with.
Of FfH's two princesses, I think I like Keelyn more than Ethne...

They are my two favorite characters in all of FFH'dom. Ethne could be a very interesting character if treated well. Perhaps I'll work on something starring her, if only to contrast the dark places writing about Keelyn seems to take me.

If I get really brave perhaps I should envision the two of them meeting? . . .

It's because one of them had demons whispering into her ear during her entire childhood and the other didn't.

It's because one of them had demons whispering into her ear during her entire childhood and the other didn't.

Many thanks, Captain Obvious. :rolleyes: :p
Although, for having had demons whispering in her ear, Keelyn has done pretty well. Take your average small child, and let loose a pack of demons upon their mind, and what comes out usually can't even string together a coherent sentence, save for the occasional obscure demonic prophecy. Keelyn, meanwhile, manages to run a country, perform magics that are usually associated with wizened archmages, and control massive demons with a level of skill that would make even the Amurites stare slack-jawed.
EDIT: And then, of course, there's the thewyrm theorem... [looks down]
If she's as smart in the lore as she is in-game, I wouldn't discount it...

Who says it wasn't her whispering to demons?

I would think that, in terms of the flavor of the society, the biggest difference between Perpentach and Keelyn would be stability. Perpentach doesn't have an inner circle to speak of: he has a chaotically changing series of advisors, a near random juggling of strategies and proclomations.

Monday: "Have you ever really looked at a cow? There's no udder animal I like more. You! You didn't laugh! Quick, skewer him over the fire, we shill have meat tonight, boys! Mmmm ... boys. Maybe we should have them instead?"

Wednesday: "Here are the plans for the Bovine Palace. Anyone found mistreating a cow should be sacrificed for its production. They really are remarkable. Did you know they have seven stomachs each? Think about that ... we are all, you know, moving through the world, from stomach to stomach, our parts being separated, being moved to where we can do the most. And watch them eat. It's bliss, just pure, undiluted bliss. Cows. They're really where it's at."

Thursday: "No, no, no, you whoreson! From the diaphragm. Feel it! You need to own this scene, this is the climax of the whole thing. You must capture it all ... do it with me ... Mooooooooooooooooooooo."

Friday: "It's Bar-B-Que Time! Hamburgers for all! Better than that chicken like crap we served on Monday."

Sunday: "Wow ... nobody loves me like my doggie."

It can't be like this all the time, but I think that _nobody_ in Jubilee is safe: rich, poor, noble, common, nobody. This may mean that the true landed gentry of the Balseraph own wineries in Hexam or in one of the other later cities--far enough from the gyrations of Perpentach's madness to retain some continuity. And absolute terror at visits from the man himself.

Keelyn, though ... ah, Keelyn knows what she wants, and will find a slightly twisted, slightly horrifying path to it that she will pursue relentlessly until victory. And if it requires finger painting with the viscera of those who oppose her, all the better.

This is actually a necro worth necroing!

I agree totally with the stability side, and also with the rich Balseraphs living as far away from Jubilee as they can.

I've always imagined Perpentach as actually being a bit more in control then people give him credit for. Insane. Whimsical. Sadistic. Unpredictable. But not by any means stupid. If he was stupid, he'd have ended up an ice cube in the Age of Ice. (The timeline is unclear a timey-wimey ball that would take a Time Lord to figure out, but IIRC he left the tower in the Age of Magic, and presumably led the Balseraphs as a small tribe when Mulcarn took over.) He may be wild and unpredictable because his mind is perpetually changing as he debates the various individuals he shares it with, but he's not likely to take a genuinely idiotic course of action because he very much intends to survive to see more suffering and mayhem. And many of his seemingly random and bizarre actions probably have root in some grand, wild, comic-book supervillain type scheme.
Agree with smart nobles moving away from Jubilee, though. You'd have to be insane by even Balseraph standards to do otherwise. And about Keelyn.
EDIT: Man, I miss thewyrm. Anyone seen him around lately?
EDIT 2: And Lord of the Balors has officially given credence to the Thewyrm Theoerm. Or would that be Thewyrm Theorem? *Scratches head.* The latter sounds better, but the former is more technically correct...

I don't think it's an either/or. Clearly, Perpentach has the mental acuity needed to lead, and to lead well: at best, though, his focus would be on keeping the big plans moving along, keeping the most important wheels turning. That means that things on the edges--minor squabbles, those petty laws that govern everyday interaction, the arbitrary choices as to what a culture values or despises--are less firmly anchored.

Hence, in the centuries (???) of his rule, incest has been at different times a sin against natural order and an attractive way to nail your cute cousin. And don't even get started on the different statues he's had placed at the center of the royal gardens!

I think we're actually mostly in agreement, though: I would certainly agree that the difficulty in writing/playing Perpentach is to not lose sight of his brilliance, and to not become overly enamored of the cheap joke (like the cow riff above).

I'm still here! I have just been doing a lot of traveling lately that has kept me from posting.

Thanks for necroing this thread, I had missed it (and that is a shame, cause I really love the Balseraph!)... I need to write some Balseraph stories once I am done with my Sheaim Elegy and get some time off school.

Oh, and Thewyrm, did you ever get around to any of those cool stories you mentioned? I clutched to one about an adept passing a riddle to enter the ranks of the mages or summat, is that written?

And Balseraph Somnium house rules! Brilliant! I simply must try that :lol:

I never did write that out in story form, but in my head that is still how a Balseraph Adept passes to mage status.

I never did write that out in story form, but in my head that is still how a Balseraph Adept passes to mage status.

I could have sworn i'de read this story.

From the even when very wrong, the AI is right department:

Keelyn has a city very near me that is isolated from me by mountains. Because the AI is stupid, this city (size 3) now has over 300 troops stationed in it. As of the last turn, the city contained:

22 Taskmasters
4 Canon
113 Mimics
84 Chariots
1 Crossbowman (?)
196 Diseased Corpses
27 Horse Archers
1 Hunter
8 Harlequins

and, I sh*t you not,

1 very tired, very sore Courtesan. Ahem.

Frill was nerveously tripping through the corridors of the palace. The fancy colours and beautiful flourishes on his best outfit did not please him like it usually did, and his puppets were slowly lacking behind him, carrying his spellbook and magic lexica. He stopped outside of the door to the great throne room for a moment, wiping the sweat off his forehead and smoothening back his hair before refitting the hat. It's bells ringed, somehow too loud for his serious situation. His puppet finally caught up with him, and he picked the books up off it before turning to the guard.

The guard was a huge man, draped in long yellow and red robes. In his hand he held a crude tool that Frill was quite sure would horribly rend anything trying to enter unasked for. The guard took a single look at him. "No Books. The Momus has decreed that no-one can bring magical effects into the throne chamber."

Frill seriously considered arguing with the man for a second, but eventually turned around and returned the books to the puppet, who walked off towards his chamber. He took a deep breath as the guard opened the door.

The throne room was amazing. It arched up to the very height of the palace, with spangled banners hanging from it. The throne of the jester king was of ivory, and placed on a small elevation, three stairsteps high. On it sat Perpentach, smiling to himself. A small table was situated in front of the king, and the tablecloth was in emerald green, with golden snakes brothered onto it.

The room was unnervingly empty. In fact, only one person besides the king and Frill was present; a tall, Balmesque man who Frill recognized as the Mimic captain. He stood perfectly still, not even blinking, hands clenched into fists and his muscular arms down his sides. Perpentach seemed not to notice the man and turned to Frill as he neared the throne.

"I come regarding the magic school, King. The council told me that I was ready but that you wanted to talk to me first?", he asked with more confidence than he felt. Perpentachs face was that of a man who is suddenly reminded of the forgotten coin in his backpocket. A small smile showed.

"Aye, that is true,
you see what I do,
is ask you a riddle now,
and then take your vow,
providing you solve it of course,
if not you will spend your life feeding my horse."

Frill nodded, despite the knowledge that the king had not owned a mount for years. The job sounded boring, but getting access to the mage guild would be worth the risk. He nodded. "I understand, my king."

"Very well then, here we go,
keep your ears peeled though,
I will not repeat and I will not reply,
and you have one and only one try:"

Frill felt a drop of sweat fall run down across his left temple as the king spoke out the riddle:

"Draped in the gown of sorrow I ride,
From my eyes no mortal man can hide,
I have seen the tallest peak and the deepest pit,
And though I do not care one bit for it,
I am often preceded by my dreadful fame,
I ask you now, what is my name?"

Frill concentrated on remembering the riddle, but the presence of the paralyzed mimic and the gaze of the king distracted him. He felt Perpentach easily sink into his mind and reading it as his thoughts formed...

The name of a rider that has crossed the entire world and who cared not for his fame... His dreadful fame, infact. He had to be an evil person... Frill thought of the legend of Rosier the Fallen, but realized that he did not fit the description perfectly well... He remembered Perpentach having used the word "mortal"... perhaps the rider himself was immortal?

Frill thought about the riddle for almost half an hour. In between, he was distracted again as the mimic captain loosened his positure and left Perpentach a short comment before exiting the room: "That concludes my demonstration of the luchuirp battle golems. I hope it can be of some use."

Finally, Frill raised his head to look at the jester. The king was already smiling, surely having read the answer Frill had concluded from his mind. The thought unnerved Frill alot, but he did not let his emotions shake his decision. Sweating heavily now, he looked up at the king and replied: "My name, king of jesters, is Ars."

The king's smile widened. It seemed to Frill like an eternity passed, before the king finally nodded.
"Your answer is right, adept.
know my word will be kept:
Sink to your knees and give me your oath,
and the title of mage is yours to hold."

Frill felt ecstacy overwhelm his mind as he fell to his knees and absent-mindedly gave the king his oath. He was thinking of his future. More than all, he was thinking of how to celebrate the occassion. He would go to the Theatre of Wonders, and then, perhaps later, he would see if he could find Pozzia and pay her for some of her Sundown Weeds, or perhaps just her company for the night....

He felt embarrassed as he realized that he had finished the oath already, and that Perpentach was still reading his mind. But the king seemed to be in a good mood today, because he merely smiled and dismissed Frill with the following words:

"Go and enjoy the lights of Jubilee tonight,
but remember your word in times of fight,
Get some Sundown and laugh or cry,
and if you see Poz, tell her I said hi."

Dazzled, but smiling, Frill left the throne room

Great story! But now we need one showing us what happens when the poor guy answers incorrectly.

Haha! If I feel like it, I could write that one... Later, though :p

He doesn't suffer from insanity, he has come to enjoy it.







heh heh, just like me :D