I've seen some people saying that it's better to switch over to a CE, utilizing the increased growth rate of Free Speach, and others saying it is possible to stay in a FE (using Rep/Nat/CS most likely). So, I've decided to give it a try, and see how it goes =)

Since I'm still not very experienced with the FE, I'm gonna stack the deck in my favour by playing as Justinian. His starting techs are not that impressive, but Spi means we can swap back and forth between CS/slavery and OR/Theo, and Imp helps both in warmongering and REXing.

The UU is very powerful, although Guilds is a tech I usually skip when playing other leaders, but lets not forget it also gives +1H from workshops. The lack of immunity to first strikes is usually not a big issue, since I tend to have several Flanking II HAs that serve as siege killers. The UB is what I'm counting on to combat Emancipation unhappiness, coupled with a colloseum it gives 3 happy per 10% culture on the slider.

In the spirit of Sisutil and Madscientist, who have taught me most of what I needed to know in climbing up from Noble, let's start with some pre-game discussion!

The leader is pretty much set in stone, it would take some pretty heavy arguments to get me to play this as a different leader.

About map type, I'd like some advice. I like having separate landmasses, but when playing Continents I often find the generator giving me a small island with 2 civs on it, and a big continent with the other 5. Acceptable if we start on the continent, but if we find ourselves on the island teching will be very slow, especially since most AIs won't trade techs if you are the only civ they have met. Also, I find it helpful to focus on worker techs in the beginning and take over a holy city later on instead of getting my own :mischief:

As for wonders, there are three ancient wonders on my wishlist: Oracle to get CoL fast (get specialists running under CS and bring in courthouses if needed, when taking it via Oracle I will also often get to found a religion), Pyramids to get Rep early (this will give me complete freedom on the slider, since ever merchants will contribute some research) and the Great Library to pop those GSes we need for Lib sooner. The Oracle is pretty easy to get with a few chops on Monarch, Pyramids can be captured or even skipped if needed although that will hurt if we don't get MM on our continent, and GL is usually not prioritized by the AIs.

Optional settings: I usually go with Agg AI, Choose religion and Perm Alliance, although Choose religion is not that much of a handicap. First two religions founded are Poly/Med, third is Mono, fourth is CoL, fifth Theo, sixth Philo and seventh DR.

That's it I think, give me suggestions for map type and I'll post the starting position. Then we can start talking about how to move the warr, where to settle, build order and tech path =)

It is possible to run Caste System after Emancipation rolls around, if heading for a cultural win or if very fond of the civic. If you increase the :culture:slider, happiness increases with theatres/colluseums. This is viable because sliders matter less in SE.

If you avoid cottages, you need to make sure everyone else avoids cottages too (by killing them).

I say ce > fe post emancipation. However, with justinian, shouldn't be a problem to keep up the pace tech wise

OK, does anyone have suggestions on map type, or should I just go ahead and post a start? =)

He's 2nd only to mansa in my book... play whatever as long as it's not somethin' with much water :p

Good call on the hippodromes.

Since you'll be pumping the culture slider anyway, why not go for a cultural victory. I'm told that a specialist powered cultural victory is quite interesting.

If you avoid cottages, you need to make sure everyone else avoids cottages too (by killing them).

:devil: That can be arranged

Good call on the hippodromes.

Since you'll be pumping the culture slider anyway, why not go for a cultural victory. I'm told that a specialist powered cultural victory is quite interesting.

Yeah Hippodromes enhance the effect of the :culture:slider, but if you go at 40%+ you should be fine without.

I don't think I'll aim for cultural vic, never really done one of those before :blush: and the slider part of the economy will be minimal, I will most likely run EPs with it until I need the happy faces from culture rate.

OK, here we go:

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Just4000BC0000.jpg

Looks promising, the river goes off to the west and it seems to branch off south as well, this will give us lots of early farms for our first cities. Jumbos give early health and allows us to build powerful mounted units. I see a coastline off to the east.

Tech path will most likely be hunting->agri->mining->BW. Once it finishes I will post an overview of our neighbourhood.

So, do we settle in place or move? Let the debate start!:mischief:

Settle in place for a good fast-growing, highly productive capital w/o the ability to build a Levee later.

Settle 1S for a fast-growing, highly productive capital w/ the ability to build a Levee later.

Settle 1W for a good production city that can work the Gold early for a great early research boost.


I prefer strong production cities (especially when Imperialistic or Expansive), because they're typically pretty hard to find. I'd settle 1S -- despite the fact it might screw any chance of building a good coastal city to the east (depending upon what's under the fog).

EDIT: A strong productive capital + starting with Mysticism = Stonehenge, IMO. This city would make a superb Wonder-spam SSE/WE Capital.

EDIT2: Depending upon what's under the fog around the Gold, it's very likely you'll be able to settle a second city near the Gold dedicated as a :commerce: city. (Gold is better for a dedicated Commerce City than it is for a dedicated Production City.) Being Imperialistic with a strong :hammers: capital means you won't have any problem settling anywhere you want before the other guy(s).


-- my 2 :commerce:

A gold mine at the beginning of the game is absolutly huge, it will drive your research for 1000's of years; therefore, I say settle 1 west. That way you get both food resources, early gold, and from what I can see 5 minable hills. Copper or Iron anyone?

Gold mine is good yes, especially since we get 50% hammer bonus on building settlers. It will also make more room or a coastacity to the east. The fog looks safe, I see a grass forest by the river, plain forest north of it. Probably a grass or grass hill north of that, but not sure about that.

I usually skip SH though, I find it more beneficial to spam warriors to fog bust/explore, and there is also not a lot for new cities to build early on so building a monument is not a big loss. By the time I build my first wonder, I usually pick Oracle to get CoL.

The slider seems to overcome the emancipation penalty unless there are tons of civs all in emancipation. I think later in the game the towns just get to the point where they have a significant cost-effectiveness advantage on specialists...but does that mean it's worth the cost of switching to them so late? It's still not clear to me either...i'd say it's probably game dependent. I have a much easier time with cottages as a warmonger, since the AI runs CE (pretty much) anyway. I've seen screenies posted of very effective late game SE research going on here though, so it's certainly possible to run SE throughout.

That is, of course, unless you are too small and the UN votes in emancipation only. That would kind of suck. If that happens, it's probably time to go take some AI cottages...

If see no reason why a food-based economy shouldn't do well, and there is certainnly no categorical imperative to cottage over your empire. While cottage-based economies gain their specific boosts earlier, food economies gain a lot shortly after Scientific Method. While this can seem like a long time, it needs to be taken into account that transforming your economy is problematic as well.

Watermills are as efficient as fully developed towns assuming full bonuses for both. An outright 2 commerce and 2 hammers, and the additional food supports half a Representation-boosted specialist, so we have an effective gain of 2H5C (for science/gold) or 2H6C (for espionage) compared to town's 1H7C.
If we have a better use for the food than to support specialists, watermills flat-out beat towns.

Biology-boosted farms support a full specialist, equivalent to 6C (gold/science) 8C (espionage) 2H4C (Priest boosted by Angkor Wat) or a whopping 10C (Artist boosted by the Sistine Chapel... I didn't consider the bonus for others because chances are you either want to go all-out on culture or it is irrelevant at this point in the game). I would rate the non-culture versions below the output of towns, but not hugely so.

***

This neglects several important factors though, most because it only addresses what the land can support. Differences arise from the simple fact that cities working mostly farms can become much, much larger for a comparable number of tiles worked and economic output.

If we operate on land with a food deficit of one (plains or grasslands past the health cap), the comparison favours cottages. For an equal number of tiles worked and equal food deficits, 3 towns are equivalent to 3 farms + 2 specialists or 3 watermills + 1 specialist. Using science or gold and using up 1 surplus food per worked square, the town is at an unchanged output of 1H7C while the watermill is downgraded to 2H4C and the farm to an unappealing 4C.
Considering that a player running a food economy will build larger cities and that the output per citizen is smaller, health becomes a vastly more important restriction than it is in a Cottage Economy.

Happiness is more difficult to compare. The Food Economy player might have to adjust the culture slider even during peacetime (population, Emancipation penalty) while the Cottage Economy player can rake in gold and science . However, in times of severe external unhappiness (War Weariness, defying resolutions etc) where burning commerce on culture is inevitable, the CE crashes while the FE functions reasonably. Considering that the FE can easily sacrifice 'commerce equivalents' for production (without the inefficiency of rush-buying) this makes it robust, flexible and generally strong for warfare.

Population in itself is a mixed blessing. It gives more clout in elections and increases the value of trade routes, but saps maintenance, so this can go either way.



Miscellaneous points:

I did not account for Great People, assuming that they will be a minor point by the time a modern-age Food Economy becomes strong.
Not only are Artists more efficient for cultural victory than cottages, using them also means that you can still generate money and research on the way, making this approach very suited for a late cultural victory rather than one where you cease all research in the Renaissance.


***


While I've used the approach intuitively before and can vouch that keeping a food-based economy is viable to the end, I haven't really thought about how to maximise the use I get out of the concept. Either I leveraged something else (like per-city bonuses) or I concentrated on winning rather than refining my economy by this point (either culture or devoting everything to production and winning by conquest/domination).

Now that I think of it, this looks tailormade for Peter: He is Philosophical, which is good for specialists anyway. He's expansive, getting him over the health problems that plague a food economy in the late game and gets a considerable reward for beelining for the late-game health techs in a powerful UB.

I will definetly be watching this game. I'll try to play a shadow game with a CE just for comparisons sake.\

EDIT: Actually, after thinking about it, I'll play FE then switch to CE later just to see how they compare.

Settle 1W. 2 Food ressources + Ivory + Gold. You've got 5 hills in BFC so you'll get your settlers out fairly quickly.
I believe Byzantine starts with The Wheel/Mysthicism.
Tech Agriculture >Hunting > Archery > Mining.
Start with a worker who improves corn > corn > ivory (of yourse mine the gold asap). After the worker, build some archers while growing to happy cap (which will be quite high with 2 ressources in the BFC). After you reach happy cap, build another worker and start your settlers. Hopefully your scouting and fogbusting archers have gotten their three promotions to make a safe escort for your settlers.

Agree with OTAKUjbski. When playing Imp, early :hammers: = many cities. Why not do some REXing, actually? A gold mine to keep the economy running in city 2 isnt bad.

OK, settling 1W as suggested, we pop a map from the hut and it reveals

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Moregold0000.jpg

I start teching Agri while building a worker, and the warrior walks off to the east to pop the hut there. 24g. I follow the coast south a bit, and run into our first neighbour

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/firstAI0000.jpg

We meet the next AI

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/ScondAI0000.jpg

Hunting is in, I go for mining next so we can work the gold mine at pop 2.

Third AI comes along

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/ThirdAI0000.jpg

We also see one of Pacal's archers steal the hut to the north of our capital, so he might be north of the other two AIs.

Our wandering warrior finds the Viking lands, and possibly a bay on the west coast as well

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Vikings0000.jpg

Mining comes in, archery now to get a perimeter defence up against the barbs. Our warrior goes north to explore the jungle up there, while one scout keeps mapping the flatlands to the west and the second one goes south to complete the map of the arctic regions. And we find the Mayan homelands

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Maya0000.jpg

He's to our north, and is the founder of hinduism. Shrines are always nice to capture, but he is not very aggressive, so Ragnar or Cyrus might be a better first target.

And the persians are spotted

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Persia0000.jpg

Looks like our first cities should be aimed along the FP river to our west, trying to box in Cyrus a bit. Although that will be dangerous if we don't have copper nearby.

We get lucky with a hut

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Huttech0000.jpg

I'm itching to start spamming settlers now, even though we only have 4 pop. Cyrus' lands are REALLY bad, so he will be expanding towards our FP river, and he is also Imp for the settler production bonus.

Here's where I'd put the first city, to block Cyrus a bit

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Citysite0000.jpg

And the overview of our world

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Southlands0000.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Northlands0000.jpg

Time to listen for some advice again I think, so ... let me know what you think =) We're a bit unlucky with copper, don't know where horses are yet. If it turns out Cyrus has horses, I'm tempted to go for fishing->sailing and plop down a city far south to grab the copper there, otherwise we can probably hold out until IW.

Running an FE inside all those Flood Plains should be interesting ... that's gonna be a hellalotta :yuck:. You've got a good smattering of :health: resources though, so it should be fine.

I see a lot of :whipped: in the immediate future.

I hate to settle on Flood Plains, but with so many, losing 1 or 2 isn't going to hurt.

1N of the gold (Cow/Gold/Stone) looks good.

Not sure what to do about the rest of the Flood Plains though .. it's hard to go right or wrong!

2 NW of Rice (on the riverside Desert Hill) looks prime -- though I do hate to give up the Rice. ... Only 1 wasted Desert tile, 9 Flood Plains, Gold, and no overlap with the Stoned Golden Cow city.

1 SW of Cow (Banana/Cow/Rice) is aggressive, but it should force Ragnar away from you. It has decent food and enough production to keep itself occupied defending the nation until IW & Calendar come around.

1W of Fish looks good (Cow/Fish/Rice). I typically wouldn't prioritize a city so close to the Jungle, since Jungle has a way of blocking the AI's Settlers, but that city would account for +2 more :health: to your Flood Plain cities! (If you settle the aggressive Ragnar block city, then it's only +1 :health: and probably not worth it immediately.)

As far as your Southeast territory, I'm more-or-less undecided. If Copper is that far out and Horses aren't nearby, then there's a 92.76% chance Iron is right under your nose.

I think you should "play it safe" with lots of Archers until IW.


I think that covers my immediate thoughts ... thanks for posting the update.


-- my 2 :commerce:

Id be willing to bet you have iron in the BFC.

Next round:

I'll admit it; I cheated a bit - we have 3 sources of iron available, one for each city, although the iron at the southern river city was just outside the BFC.
Cyrus plopped down a city to claim it, DoW'd on me, and I had neglected to build enough Spearmen to keep control of it. He had also founded Buddhism and managed to convert Ragnar. So, I reloaded yesterday's save and built up an army instead of trying to get the Pyramids. The war is going better this time around - he managed to build one axeman before I pillaged the iron, but I have two of my own roaming the southern border, along with two spears and 3 swordsmen camped outside his iron city. He's been suiciding his Immortals on my spears, and I just got my first GG who will join a scout to make a Medic III. Next 2 GG's will attatch to swordsmen, with the medic in the same tile, to snag Woodsman III as well. After that, I will start settling them to get CRII units straight out of the barracks.

We hit Construction, but none of the other civ's have discovered Alphabet yet, so war elephants are a bit off yet. I start research on Pottery so we can get some granaries up and start whipping the flood plain cities good.

Ragnar converts to Hinduism (same as Pacal and Cyrus), so I switch to No Religion until we can flip him back. I start teching Alphabet myself, both to open up bribing and to let our first GS bulb Philo. Constantinople will start the mids, Thessalonica is set up to take over troop spamming now.

My army is camped outside another of Cyrus's cities, but my CRIII swordsman only has 30% chance to win against his Shock axe, so I decide to wait for the cats to come.

Lucky! His axe attacks and dies on my swordman, leaving the city open for conquest.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Taken0000.jpg

I will leave his eastern city for now, and grab the horse city bordering Ragnar. We will need HAs soon to counter cats.

I get the "mercy" event, offering peace with Cyrus, but since he is now pleased to Ragnar I want to cripple him for good before asking for peace.

We get our prophet

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/Prophet0000.jpg

and the priest I was running in Constantinople can go back to the mine to help finish the mids. Once they come in I will switch to CS and run loads of scientists to get back on track for the Lib bulbing.

We get the Pyramids! I think GL will be tough though, I'm almost out of forests in my capital and we don't have marble.

I take peace with Cyrus in exchange for Sailing. We didn't get the horse city, but Ragnar is about to DoW on someone, and I suspect it will be me. I need to prepare for that, and keep some forces along my border with Cyrus to guard against a backstab. The only upside so far is that me and Pacal are the only ones with metals - if I can just get my army in shape, the medieval times will be smooth sailing.

Overview of the southern part of the continent

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/MapSouth0000.jpg

And the northlands, I zoomed in a bit since I don't see any Mayan cities, just their borders

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg145/Kerran_CivIV/MapNorth0000.jpg

I've made a complete mess of this war - time to build up 25-30 swords/cats and sweep away Cyrus. Focusing EPs on Ragnar to steal HBR should probaby be done too.

You have a production heavy capital... lots of gold tiles around you... a huge bonus to settler production... plenty of space... and you only have 3 cities in 235 AD? :cry:

At the very least, you should have settled by now the cow & rice spot Northeast of the capital, and the gold & rice & ivory spot to the South of that.


I'm also very disturbed that your other two cities are so small, and that the flood plains look entirely unimproved.

You have a production heavy capital... lots of gold tiles around you... a huge bonus to settler production... plenty of space... and you only have 3 cities in 235 AD? :cry:

At the very least, you should have settled by now the cow & rice spot Northeast of the capital, and the gold & rice & ivory spot to the South of that.


I'm also very disturbed that your other two cities are so small, and that the flood plains look entirely unimproved.

Ditto. Build more cities and Farm your Flood Plains.

You should have at least 6 cities by now. It also pains me to see Persian cities in your land. At least Tarsus was placed well enough to keep.

Construction before Pottery !? :confused: Pottery is the bread and butter of any early FE -- especially one with so many Flood Plains.

What's the tech situation like? Can you show us the <F4> TECHS screen?

Couldn't resist playing out next war against Cyrus. He still lives, but I've cleared him out from "my" part of the empire, and got Feudalism for the peace. Ragnar kept asking me to trade him iron for a food resource, I turned him down, and now he no longer "has enough on my hands". Seems I've elliminated the threat from that direction. And he's friendly with me now, so hopefully he will plan next war against the mayans.

Yes, the "middle" expansion is where my games usually fail =) Either I focus too much on the military, letting the AI beat me to city spots and getting bogged down in a lengthy war, or I fall behind in power and get dogpiled. In retrospect, I might have been able to avoid war completely up to now and grab a leam by spamming settlers, but as the game stands now I have kept most of Cyrus' cities, switched back to slavery and OR to get courthouses and hippodromes in them, and keeping up with the AIs. Bulbed the first part of Education just before the save, so I will finish that once my current tech comes in.

I'll post some advisor screens later tonight =)