Hi,

I was inspired to start a follow-along Civ game thread of my own. To make it vaguely interesting, I was thinking I'd play as a very uncommon civ - one with none of the existing leader traits! :)

That would make for a very general game - with no Financial or Philosophical etc I wouldn't be compelled to play one kind of economy or the other just because my leader had those traits.

But there isn't any civilization without traits? Except there is. The barbarians. Now, playing as the actual Barbarian civilization provided by (but not enabled by default) the Civ game would probably have caused a lot of unforeseen problems (looking at its xml entry, I see several buildings and units are prohibited).

So instead, I tweaked the Minor Nations Civ (also shipped but disabled) to remove all its starting techs, just like true barbarians. Minor Nations also start without any leader traits, so that made them perfect to adopt for this game. And being a "real" playable Civ, I hope there aren't any snags or limitations to bite me later.

Now, to make this game truly unique, I then decided to give my poor civ one break. The ability to adopt the UU and UB of any civ that we conquer (by destruction or capitulation). :D

I'll call this the Adaptive trait :)

No, this trait doesn't exist. But it's not that hard to implement. At the point where a Civ is destroyed by me or capitulates to me, I'll simply copy in its UU and UB into the xml code for my nation, thus enabling its use to me from that point onwards. If it happens.

So here is the game. Feel free to chip in with any advice and suggestions, though please keep any spoilers within SPOILER tags. Thank you.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/BarbMinorFanatic.jpg

Here I am, self-titled "Fanatic" of the Barbarians (of Minor Nations). :mischief:

Starting Technologies: none
Unique Unit: none
Unique Building: none
Leader Trait: Adaptive (=I can adopt the UU/UB of any conquered enemy)

I'm using Civ IV BtS 3.13 Bhruic 1.11 (phew!), The difficulty level is Prince, the map is Fractal, and the speed is Marathon. The map size is small (low sea) and it houses five[b] civs, including me.

Thus, finally, the starting position:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/StartPos.jpg

Not overwhelmingly great, but more interesting than usual. Do I settle along the coast or move south to get the Wheat for my capital?

Coast: I can move 1NE and not lose a turn or the Cows, but avoid destroying the forest? Or move 1E and try to avoid any Ocean tiles.
Inland: Wheat would help a lot with growth, but is that peaks I see down south?

What would you do? And would it help the decision if I moved my Warrior, and if so, where?

Then for the intentionally interesting discussion of research: [B]I have nothing. What techs should I start with? At Prince difficulty I believe I can get away with a few techs before having to saving my ass with Archery, but beelining to Horses or Copper is a two-tech risk that delays essentials like Agriculture and The Wheel.

To start off the discussion, do you think I should go for Animal Husbandry to work the Cows and hope for Horses?

And what about production? Without Hunting, should I build a Warrior to help scouting or go straight for a Worker (which might not have that much to do with no worker techs).

Questions, questions... :king:

Regards,
Kazapp

Oooh, a fresh new idea in walkthroughs! Tagged.

I'd research AH personally to get those cows hooked up. As for settling, well there is 1W which will take up your settlers movement points but should reveal quite a few tiles as it's a hill, or 1NE which leaves you the option of still settling on the first turn. I'd move the warrior 1S or 1SE to get on those hills and reveal some more tiles, although that is more to check out the land around the wheat for a second city site.

Cool game idea Kazapp -

Unirrigated plains wheat is not as good as grassland cow (except that you can work it sooner).

I would settle on the plains riverside for frshwater bonus and cows. Looks like there is nothign but forest to the west of the settler and one forestless tile 1E 1SE of the settlers cutrrent position. I'd be inclined to go for Animal Husbandry first. Agriculture won't do you much good until you have BW. Hunting gives scouts and is needed for archery, if you want to talk yourself into that tech.

Actually, it might be better to go mining -> bW -> Agr -> AH. Build a warrior or two, worker, mine hill, chop out another worker then farm grasslands and pasturize the cow.

Maybe things change if there is a resource on the open tile 1E 1SE of the settler's current position

Excellent idea Kazapp! I'll be following this one closely.

I'd first move the warrior 1E of it's current position to see if there are resources on those unforested squares. If nothing reveals, I'd settle in place. If there's something special, then I'd consider moving the settler 1E.

Hi! Thanks for your support!

I got some good advice in various directions, but it seemed you could agree the unforested square needed attention. My Warrior found - nothing.

Thus I moved my settler 1NE (both to not lose the Cows and because it only took half my movement).

Still nothing. As this square has fresh water, I didn't see any real reason to move on top of any forest, so I settled there and then.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/settled.jpg

And as a nice surprise, another Wheat, in my BFC! :)

So, to the business of what to research and build then. With no techs, I can't just select at random, I need to focus straight away, but without the customary free techs to help me decide a path.

But of course your help looking at the map we've been given should help a lot! :)

As I see it, there's 1) Hunting>AH, there's 2) Agriculture, and there's 3) Mining>BW. (Are we agreed neither Mysticism, Wheel nor Fishing is a must-have?)

In the two first cases, I can start a Worker on a tile straight away, but might have nothing to do afterwards. Building a Worker straight away makes sense especially if I choose Agriculture (which gets done in 24 turns, before I can complete the Worker).

On the other hand, selecting Hunting increases my chances at getting any huts at all.

In the last case, I can probably squeeze a Warrior in first (in 8 to 15 turns depending on city growth) and perhaps should build the two Warriors I get until my city pops size 2 before I start on the Worker? (Mining is 20 turns and BW perhaps an additional 35-40).

Decisions, decisions... :)

Agriculture first ,most certainly... then Mining->BW

P.S The minor civ flag is the Irish part of the Union Jack ? ;)

An interesting idea for a game. Including the adaptive trait add's a new element to choosing your first victims, probably taking a civ before their UU kicks in so you can use it again. It will be interesting to see what civs are about and what UU's and UB's you end up with.

I assume your planning to go for a more warlike victory, can't see the barbs going for diplo or cultural. ;)

I will pop in from time to time to see how the barbs are getting on!

I'd go Agriculture->AH->Mining->BW. If no horses/copper in sight (which I would call extremely unlucky in this case), then Hunting->Archery for defensive troops.

I think that AH is a subpar choice now or even after agriculture due to the fact that:

You have lots of forests, hence you need chopping ( BW )
You have a lot of hills, hence you need mining
There is a suspicious gap in forest... I strongly suspect of a metal there

Nice idea. I'll definitely follow this one.

Definitely go Mining > BW
As r_rolo said, there surely is a ressource, either a metal or horses. But Agri and AH are very low priority: Only 1 farmable tile pre-CS (which is covered in forest) plus Wheat. Cows are far away and you'll lose precious worker turns moving there.

I think that AH is a subpar choice now or even after agriculture due to the fact that:

You have lots of forests, hence you need chopping ( BW )
You have a lot of hills, hence you need mining
There is a suspicious gap in forest... I strongly suspect of a metal there


But without AH the only food resource would be a non-irrigated plains wheat. That, and the fact there's only 1 fresh water grassland square you can build farm on, makes AH very attractive tech IMHO. Yeah, grassland cows doesn't provide so much food either, but it's still better than the other tiles in the BFC.

Nice idea. I'll definitely follow this one.

Definitely go Mining > BW
As r_rolo said, there surely is a ressource, either a metal or horses. But Agri and AH are very low priority: Only 1 farmable tile pre-CS (which is covered in forest) plus Wheat. Cows are far away and you'll lose precious worker turns moving there.

How does the capital grow without agriculture or AH? Where does the food come from?

^^I said agri first in a earlier post.....

And you will not grow too fast any way... worker + settler will give it more than enough time to get AH

Well, the cap won't grow fast anyway. Agri before Mining and BW seems better but AH is too expensive for its use atm. You can also build two workers probabely as there is SO much forest to chop. Might as well use those for REXing.

^^I said agri first in a earlier post.....

Yes, I know that. What about it?

IMHO food is the most important thing in the game, and especially in the early capital. Working 4F2H tile instead of 3F1C tile is worth of the "expensive" AH tech IMO, especially since it's very likely that there's a resource somewhere in the capital's BFC.

But working a 3F1C tile some turns earlier than a 4F2H ( Agri is cheaper than AH ) may pay up... amd there are some nice forested hills nearby for production

Cool idea. I say Agg > Min > BW.

But working a 3F1C tile some turns earlier than a 4F2H ( Agri is cheaper than AH ) may pay up... amd there are some nice forested hills nearby for production

As far as I know, you NEED agriculture (or hunting, but that's not likely..) to research AH... To work 3F1C tile, you need to chop that forest, so you can't work it earlier than the cows.

Thanks for all comments and suggestions!

I normally like to do a Worker-first build, as it rarely is punished by any attacks this early. But in this case, what would the Settler do after farming the Wheat and before BW or AH got online?

So in the end, I opted to grow the city to size 2 and build my Worker then. That should give me enough time to tech some useful Worker skills: Mining>Agriculture>BW. I guess being slow out of the box can't be helped...


This would also give me a few Warriors to scout with - I really wish to meet my neighbours in this game, as they possess the only UUs/UBs I'll ever see in this game! :)

Besides, I usually run out of luck and have Warrior-popped huts spawn Barbs. Shame they aren't cooperating...

That would actually be a nice - and powerful! - new Leader trait: any non-animal barbarian unit have a chance of spontaneously offering their allegiance to you (=becoming one of your units). :lol: Even if only one in five units switch sides, and even if Civs still get the anti-barb bonus against them, such a trait would still be way cool and very useful too...

As for victory, I feel that's still a wee bit early. But yes, domination wins are probably the easiest ones. Let us be guided in the potential UU/UB's to be had, shall we? :)

Okay, so get a move on... I decided to explore further in the general direction we're already travelling...

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/hut1.jpg

My first hut. Money. Not too bad...

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/tokugawa.jpg

Meeting my first neighbour: Tokugawa, the flippant old jester... Not.

I don't have any high hopes for him... except it sure would be nice to learn the ancient art of Samurai. Or whatever - just as long as he doesn't get to use those buggers against me! :)

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/hut2.jpg

Another day, another hut. Maps. Meh, though it saves me the trip to that northern shore...

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/sury.jpg

Yikes! How that face creeps me out everytime I see it. I swear, I'd pay good money for a certified Suryawhateverman-free edition of Civ!! Don't you all feel how he's only saved from instant war by the fact his head wouldn't even look good on a pole? I mean, I can war, but I cannot lie... :D

In other news, my second Warrior was ready. And in the nick of time - apparently I had missed a hut just outside my borders and Toku's warrior could have taken it, had he seen it.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/hut3.jpg

Gold is always nice, and gold not in Japanese or Khmer hands is even better.

At this time, I had reached behind Toku's capital to the east - and it truly is the end of the world. I'm not feeling comfortable having Tokugawa snuggle up on me like that.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/behindtoku.jpg

Meanwhile, my western warrior met a third rival.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/joao.jpg

Don't know too much about the second Joao. Better social skills than the Jap and better looks than the Khmer though. Does that mean he's a backstabber? :king:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/behindjoao.jpg

And this is as far as I can go. (Actually, that's not true. A bit later on I found out Joao's lands leave a coastal strip for me to slip through.)

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/hut4.jpg

Another map! Bleh. (Note how the maps reveal absolutely nothing new. Note to own troops: blank paper is not a map. Ask them again for gold or tech, stupid fools!)

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/qin.jpg

Checking out what's going down behind Portugal, I find my fourth rival. Qin is obviously located to the east or south of Joao...

Okay, that's enough random wandering. Let's check the 3235 o'clock news:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/powerful.jpg

Dead last. And Toku's at the top. Nice. But hopefully that only means he's an Archer or two up on me at this early stage.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/1stworker.jpg

Back home, my Worker was done. As this year was extraordinarily eventful, I felt it was a good place to stop at. Besides, I've reached the picture limit!

(cont'd) So, let's review the first fifty turns or so:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/knownworldeast.jpg

Me and Tokugawa. And nowhere to go.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/knownworldwest.jpg

Me and the Portuguese. I sure won't allow him into my lands, and I have a feeling he won't allow me into his... Anyway, it will be hard to look westward with the inhospitable Japs to my back.

An early rush would certainly come in handy here, one direction or the other!

Okay, onto the subject of city sites, which will become urgent soon enough. Resources turned on for your convenience.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/citysiteseast.jpg

Thanks to yet another Wheat, a Silver City along the northern coast looks feasible. But the city site directly south of it (to the NW of Tokugawa) seems to be a very high priority. Both because of the Marble, but perhaps even more to deny land to the Japanese.

As you can see, my Warrior is heading to bust the remaining unknown lands. Perhaps he will reveal a good city spot, but I'm doubtful.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/citysitessouth.jpg

The only direction in which I don't foresee any immediate competition. That plains square on the southern coast between Gems and Cows looks both nice and strategic.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/citysiteswest.jpg

Okay, not much to my west, except it could be valuable to block off the narrow stretch of land from Joao.

Any dotmaps appreciated.

But of course, discussing cities might not be the highest priority if I am to rush somebody. But one more city will probably be needed in any case, if only to claim Copper.

So, in summary: farm the Wheat, finish Bronze Working, start chopping a Warrior or Settler, start researching Animal Husbandry. Right?

Also, feel free to state your city work tile preferences. In other words, what manual arrangements do you feel is appropriate?



But there's one more thing I'd like to bring to the table. Being aggressive. :yumyum:

It might be worthwhile to DoW either neighbour simply to stall their development. I sure am behind on all counts. I don't have the luxury of a Woodsman II unit (but my Warriors are well mapped out! *Sigh*), so the question is, will I be able to handle a Tokugawa, say, gone rabid? (I might be wrong, but early harrassment seems to work much better against timid techer civs.) But I feel I can't let both Joao and Tokugawa get away with friendly REXing on this map...

Decisions, decisions... :)

Regards,
Kazapp

finish teching BW then axe rush toku, theres got to be copper around there somewhere

or try a worker steal, thats always good for slowing the AI down and speeding yourself up

as you are stealing UUs what will you do if you get two UU/ UBs that replace the same building?
though it looks unlikely witht he AIs lineup

Great idea! TIme to stand up for the Minor People of the World! I look forward to your city list!

As it stands for the UB(s) and UU(s) (The (s) depending on your military skills to annihilate a civ)

Japan - Samurai (Replaces Maceman- REQUIRES IRON!)
- Shale Plant (Replaces Coal Plants)
Portugal - Carrack (Replaces Caravel)
- Feitoria (Customs House)
Khmer - Ballista Elephant (Replaces WE - Requires Ivory (duh))
- Baray (Replaces Aqueduct)
China - Cho-ko-nu (Or whatever obsolete western spelling Firaxis uses - Requires IRON)
- Pavillion (Theatre)

The possibilities of having the same uu and ub are few, like Japan and Vikings, which share macemen, Mongolia and Carthage,Ottoman-France and the Rome-Celtia-Aztec Triumvirate, which shouldn't happen.

If it does happen, however, I think you should be given a choice, like between Zerks and Samurais. See the Multiple Personality Disorder SG game going on in Succession Games for an example, thought that one's quite extreme.

Subscribed. Great idea. Wait for bronze working and axe rush either Jaoa or Toku. I am tending towards Jaoa because he has a nice capital and won't be rexing towards you that fast (only marble and fur without food inbetween you and him).

I also have the supsicious feeling that copper or iron will pop up beneath your city because that was another suspicious empty spot. If that is the case it saves you a couple of turns to get the mine online.

Marble/cow/silk city looks good, but you could also go for marble/cow/wheat. The first one blocks of Toku better and leaves space for wheatsilver city.

Interesting idea, I'll be following this thread surely. As for who to rush, my bid would be on Toku just because you get a decent UU out of it. I really can't see the need for the Carrack at this point in the game. Though you'd need to find some Iron but there'll surely to be some around, hopefully not to far away. but blocking of Jaoa would be a wise idea in any circumstance, maybe worth placing a second city in that direction.

Toku is pro.... wit will be a hard nut to crack. In fact I'm not exactly a fan of attacking Pro civs before gunpowder ( and here you have 2 ). But Toku is near... So why not? ;)

@ConanKND

If you think that RBtS 5 is a little extremist, search for "Last stand of the Humans" SG..... Warlords deity AW, humans have all the UU and UB.....

I think it's best to attack an opponent now, since you have 2 of them too close to comfort. Tokukaga is 9 tiles away, and Joaõ 10 tiles away. So no big difference here. Toku is protective, what makes a war against him more costly. Toku is a slow techer with poor land, so you should get a tech advantage on him later rather easily. Joaõ has better land (did I see gold +floodplains there? :drool:), and I don't like him too much.. (maybe it's the slimy appearance of him, idk..)

If you do an Axerush, rush Joao. Since he's Imp/Exp, he spends lots of the early game producing Workers and Settlers and looks like an early target. I don't think he'll attack until he runs out of spots to settle.

Interestingly you're making a case both for Tokugawa and Joao. I do think I lean towards Tokugawa if at all possible: not only does he have the cooler UU, he's the one bound to feel cornered faster - there sure seems to be some land west of Joao he can busy himself with. I don't know Joao's backstabbing tendencies, but I do know my chances to become buddies with Tokugawa is very low on this map.

Regarding UU's (and UB's): I will simply copy the appropriate xml lines to my civ if and when I take someone out. I don't anticipate any problems regarding this: if I killed both the Romans and the Aztec, say, then I should have both Jaguars and Pretorians available in cities with Iron; Jags only in unconnected cities. Civ doesn't seem to have any problems with multiple UUs, despite not showcasing it anywhere.

Okay then, let's get to it.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/bear.jpg

A bear! Come on, let's wrestle! Hopefully I'll kill you and learn something... :mischief:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/poorland.jpg

Elsewhere my Warrior confirmed my suspicions: poor land indeed to my NE. I then sent him to clear up the black squares north of Tokugawa.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/moreanimals.jpg

A few wrestling matches later (I believe five in total), my Warrior apparently is ready to run through those bushes without trepidation... or whatever explanation for the increased movement rate you fancy! :goodjob:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/tokusworker.jpg

And here's the opportunity. Toku, your Warrior is too slow! ;) I really never contemplated passing up on this free Worker, though it would sure be nice if you are correct, and I have Copper right beneath my capital. By the way, it paid off to escort the Worker home despite the short distance. Just a few turns later my Warrior had to fend off one of those lightning wolves that come out of nowhere. :mad:

Back to my Woodsman II Warrior-Scout:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/wheresthatchinese.jpg

What the... Nobody's been around? :eek: But where's the Chinese (and the mystery Civ)? Qin must be around here somewhere or I wouldn't have made contact with him this early.

What this really means is that Joao sure got some land to expand into... much more than me, at least if I stay peaceful. (Good thing I've already started my first war then! :cool: )

(cont'd)

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/findthecopper.jpg

Good news - Bronze Working is finished!

Bad news - it's nowhere near... :(

In fact, I could find a total of two (2) Copper resources in all of the territory I can see! One directly south of Tokugawa, one within the borders of Uglyevilalienguy (aka that Khmer Guy).

Oh well, let's station a Warrior to try to get advance notice if Toku's settling the Copper. (I really can't prevent him from getting it, as he'll get it at 300 :culture: in his capital).

Okay, so let's research Animal Husbandry and hope for better luck, shall we? I did consider chickening out and do Archery, but fate favors the bold, right? (At least on Prince level, I hope! :p)

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/advanced.jpg

Thanks for telling me I'm dead last! :rolleyes: At least Tokugawa isn't concentrating on techs... but wait, I know what occupies his mind...

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/closenocigar.jpg

Close but no cigar, Tokugawa!! :nono: I believe I can swallow my pride and talk peace now, don't you think...? (Yeah, I do)

As an astute observer, you've probably noticed I'm researching Hunting in the above picture. So what about those horsies...?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/findthehorse.jpg

Well, the good news is that... wait, there's no good news. There's no bleedin' horses either! :mad: (There's one patch north of Toku)

I guess I should be grateful Tokugawa doesn't seem to have any horses or copper in his BFC. And I guess I am... :blush:

Well, at this time it would be folly indeed to go for The Wheel (and catch the Horses in my 3rd city). I simply must get me some Archers.

To put this post's ending on a happier note, let us take a look at the greener grass over to the west.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/fanatic/westernresources.jpg

Nice huh? For Joao and Uglyevilalienguy that is. :sad: (I apologize for the unexplored patches - I didn't really have time to clear them up - Joao's position means a detour, and besides, he's sure to block me off at any moment, and I really wanted to bring my Woodsman II home safe and sound). Besides, I'm not really in a position to mapdot those western lands, am I? (Hint: Tokugawa).

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Toku who's got Iron in his BFC, not me... :gripe: So, what do I do now?

Should I anticipate a millenium of warring with Tokugawa to deny him Copper until I finally get Catapults and Longbows online and can take him out? Then a nice, long chat with a very large and powerful Joao... :ack:

Or iron... beautiful Iron... which I can't get to easily - I really need to REX a bit.

Do you feel I should go for IW straight after Archery, or should I try to hold off the Japs anyway. It's not as if Granaries and Libraries wouldn't come in handy...

Comments welcome /kazapp

Worst luck it seems for an early rush tactic. beelinging IW is an option but will it make you fall way behind in tech? I would say abandon any idea on early rushing. Block of Toku so he can't grow. Rex a bit to get up to strenght. IW should still be a tech to research farily soon though, you need some stronger units fairly soon in any case.