Every religion could be made to work with every civilization, although sometimes a bit of mental gymnastics is necessary to do so. So I was wondering how people imagine certain unlikely religion/civilization combinations working out.
Take, for instance, the Order/Balseraph hybrid I enjoy playing. I've always imagined it as a demented parody of Disneyland, a land of constant celebration and merriment, but one that is always clean and friendly. One that's free from pickpockets and soul-stealing prophets, where you can let your cares go away and bring the kids without worrying about what might happen to them. Of course, it stays that way because criminals who might make the Happiest Place on Erebus a bit less happy are made into unwilling amusements. "Step right up, ladies and gentlemen! Stone the criminal! One coin for a pebble, two for a rock! Killing blow gets half the pot! Step right up!"

Order/Sheaim
Council of Esus/Malakim
Empyrean/Calabim or Svaralfar
Octopus Overlords/Kuriorates or Elohim
Ashen Veil/ Bannor or Elohim

Order/Sheaim...

It's funny you should mention that one. I tried a game as that mixture once. Failed epically, BTW. But I imagined they'd be like Armageddonist Christians, honestly believing that Armageddon would be a good thing, and that their righteous souls would ascend and be rewarded while the rest of the world was punished for their heresies. It's a really a rather obvious mixture, especially since being Order would spare them from the wrath of Hell. They'd also consider the beasties obtained in via planar gate to be gifts to help them cleanse the world of sinners.
:crazyeye:

But I imagined they'd ...honestly believing that Armageddon would be a good thing, and that their righteous souls would ascend and be rewarded while the rest of the world was punished for their heresies.

Sounds familiar...

I'll take that challenge, Rex!

Order/Sheaim

Tebryn Arbandi decides that he no longer wants to be the pawn of Hell. He betrays Ceridwen, then turns towards Junil for redemption, hoping to complete the Altar of the Luonnatar and save himself from Hell by calling in the One.

Council of Esus/Malakim

The people of the desert notice something odd. The sun no longer seems to shine on them as brightly as before. Their prophets no longer perform miracles, claiming they need to reserve their power for when it is most needed. An unusual darkness has enveloped the land. There are whispers among the people that the Malakim leaders have turned their back on Lugus, worshipping a dark god in secret in exchange for more power, but those who spread these rumors never seem to live very long....

Empyrean/Calabim

There's always the comedy gold (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031105) inherent in the idea. I imagine vampires attempting to attend church only to recoil at the holy symbols inside, praying to a god that smites them for their blasphemy.

On a more serious note, the Calabim decide that their enmity with Lugus has gone on long enough, and begin constructing Empyrean temples in hopes of acheiving reconciliation. The god accepts them back probationally: He will not remove their curse (so Sun spells still harm them), but he will allow them to use his powers. Redemption may be a long time in coming, but perhaps the vampires will pull through...

or Svaralfar

Blah blah redemption blah. :rolleyes: Next!

Octopus Overlords/Kuriorates

Of all the creatures on Erebus, Eurabatres the Gold Dragon may be the only one who has discovered the truth of the Overlords. Danalin lies comatose, tormented in nightmares, but he is still a god. His abandomnent of creation has, by the terms of the Compact, left him with a great amount of power, and Hemah's existence proves that this power can still be exploited. The lands of the Kuriotates are filled with countless different peoples. Perhaps this diversity could be harnessed: If the Overlords themselves were created from the imagination of a single boy, imagine what the imagination of a dragon, backed up by all the diversity of the Kuriotates, could do...

or Elohim

The end was at hand. Corruption was spreading almost imperceptibly throughout Erebus. Try as they might, the Elohim could not possibly stave off the inevitable. Perhaps nobody noticed right now, but in a few generations... It was no use. They would fail. All they could do would be to keep Erebus struggling in its death throes as long as possible. Einion Logos tried to keep such thoughts out of his mind, to distract himself from his doom, but every night they would return to torment him in his sleep. Until that one night, when his nightmares took an entirely different turn. His bodyguards were disturbed by the sounds of manic laughter from his bedchamber. He had recieved a vision, and he now understood what had to be done. Oh, yes, there would be a few changes in how the Elohim did things from now on...

Ashen Veil/ Bannor

The Bannor experienced firsthand the horrors of Hell. For the first few generations, those horrors were fresh in their minds, as people could still be found who recalled the escape of the Bannor, and would tell these stories to inspire obedience and discipline. After most of those who'd been in Hell died out, however, a secret cult began forming among the Bannor. They read the stories of the trials of Hell, of demons stealing away children in the night, of enormous monsters that routed entire armies singlehandedly, but they took a different kind of inspiration from them. When they read these stories, they found tales of power, and they were envious...

or Elohim

"Are you implying that I joined the Elohim simply to learn their secrets? That I used my charisma to corrupt others to my side? That I gained influence to purge the 'true' Elohim and replace them with like-minded individuals? Ha! Ethne, you insult me! The facts are clear: The One has abandoned creation. We know better than anyone what has become of our beloved Erebus in His abscence. He could return and purge the world of all Evil, and yet He continues to delay His Final Judgement! No more, I say! We will force His hand! We will set the world ablaze, dragging it deeper into corruption, until the One has no choice but to intervene! Then, and only then, we will have truly vanquished Evil!"

Someone told that most crazy combination is Malakim/CoE. But I don't feel it is inacceptable. Being completely open and completely hidden means the same level of menthal discipline.

Also I like Doviello/Empyrean. Honor is natural value for strong people as well as sun for cold lands. And I imagine how local chieftains prefer to die rather then to submit to single leader. So wisdom and councils are really neaded to join the nation.

What I really dislike is Khazad/FoL.

I have a different take on Ashen Veil/Bannor.

The Bannor elders are unhappy. They see the new generation is less accepting of the hard discipline of the Bannor. They think long and hard and realize the thing that kept the Bannor truly strong was the memory of Hellfire. Now they seek to return the Bannor to Hell, to return them to strength.

I have a different take on Ashen Veil/Bannor.

The Bannor elders are unhappy. They see the new generation is less accepting of the hard discipline of the Bannor. They think long and hard and realize the thing that kept the Bannor truly strong was the memory of Hellfire. Now they seek to return the Bannor to Hell, to return them to strength.That's kinda cool. :evil:

What I really dislike is Khazad/FoL.

In fact, you can pay the greedy dwarf to do that. :lol:

What I really dislike is Khazad/FoL.

would be even worse for the Ljos with RoK... the people most dedicated to preserving the lands, only to exploit it with full resolve.

Not really, they could be doing it in an eco-friendly manner after all. All their mines are hidden in the forests, and don't disrupt nature :)

Calabim/Order is one of my favourite to role-play. Betrayal was never so delicious.

I always thought Sheaim/FoL was a bit odd.......... since when is it natural to bring hordes of Angels and Demons around to fight over ideology?

I always thought Sheaim/FoL was a bit odd.......... since when is it natural to bring hordes of Angels and Demons around to fight over ideology?

"Have you ever watched a fire rage through a forest? At first, it seems like nothing but destruction, but does it not weed out the weak? Is it not as important as the rain? You ask us why we, worshipers of nature, would call forth Armageddon? Why we would bring such destruction to the world we have sworn to care for? It is simple. This world has grown thick with the weak and useless, and must be cleansed of them."

I still don't like it. A forest fire is a natural process, brought about by factors internal to the "cycle". Bringing in a whole swarm of Demons and Angels to fight over ideology is a bit different........

"Have you ever watched a fire rage through a forest? At first, it seems like nothing but destruction, but does it not weed out the weak? Is it not as important as the rain? You ask us why we, worshipers of nature, would call forth Armageddon? Why we would bring such destruction to the world we have sworn to care for? It is simple. This world has grown thick with the weak and useless, and must be cleansed of them."

That works when you're just killing lots of people and/or sending the world into chaos, but the analogy starts to break down if you're trying to simply end it all. It would be like intentionally starting a forest fire on your own, then chopping down any trees that survive, then burning everything again, and lastly grinding salt and plutonium into the earth to ensure that nothing would ever grow there again.

On the plus side, the Fellowship is an early religion, so the Sheaim could conceivably convert to it while still planning to switch over to the Veil once it's available. In that case, the justsification would simply be, "Yes, let the people worship their trees and live in the woods for now, but do not let them forget that this is merely a temporary diversion. Once the time is right, I will show you how to truly worship..."

On the plus side, the Fellowship is an early religion, so the Sheaim could conceivably convert to it while still planning to switch over to the Veil once it's available. In that case, the justsification would simply be, "Yes, let the people worship their trees and live in the woods for now, but do not let them forget that this is merely a temporary diversion. Once the time is right, I will show you how to truly worship..."

Also, the diplomacy benefits with other FoL civs can keep the Sheaim alive until they are strong enough to reveal their true nature...

/Is now imagining a meeting between various FoL civs with everyone cheering and clapping and singing praises to various parts of nature while the Sheaim delegate nervously mutters "err...yeah...yay trees..."

Calabim/Order

"We stand on the verge of a New World. No longer is there need for animosity between humans and vampires. For we have found the thing that will bind us.

LAW! ORDER!

These two ideals will lead our people, human and vampire into a new dawn... or dusk. There shall be no crime, there shall be no dissent. For those found guilty of these crimes will be found wanting of their precious life's blood. And it's every citizen's duty... NAY! Privilege to bring to fore those who would disrupt the divine Order as has been put forth by the Great Junil.

THE RIVERS SHALL FLOW WITH THE BLOOD OF THE UNBELIEVERS! FOR LAW! FOR ORDER!"

Order fits Flauros personality and traits, and since vampires are neither undead or demonic there isn't really any conflicts in that area.

Especially since the Order has the "ideal" or at least considers it ok to sacrifice the many peasants to further the rightesouness of the few. The Vampires could work that angle.


Not really a religion-civ combo, but in a game as the Amurites, I have a lich running around, doing nothing but casting vitalize....... Odd, dontcha think?

Especially since the Order has the "ideal" or at least considers it ok to sacrifice the many peasants to further the rightesouness of the few. The Vampires could work that angle.


Not really a religion-civ combo, but in a game as the Amurites, I have a lich running around, doing nothing but casting vitalize....... Odd, dontcha think?

For Calabim- yes, they could convert to Order to stop demons. I can imagine keeping what Vampires really do (drink souls, not just blood) a secret, while using their immense power to keep Infernals at bay. And they don't need to feed so often, they could simply take few dissents.

But Order Calabim (or whenever they turn good) should lose the ability to Feast.

Lich- It isn't common, but especially as the Amuriters, I could see liches simply as men seeking immortality. They don't need to be evil at all. Necromancy practice would usually corrupt them but not necessarily. And Arawn is neutral god. Your lich is just an archmage pledging as an eternal protector of the Amurite nation. His nature magic lets him preserve part of himself he let behind.

Sheaim FoL - Well, yes, definitely a ruse. Plus, Sheaim can be RP anyway you want as most of their population is unaware what are they in for. They just seek power. In my game I vassalised them and turned them RoK. Their leadership, including Os-Gabella was overthrown and executed, and general population never knew what really happened. They remained a nation pursuing knowledge, even in death magic, but nothing they knew about the Armageddon.

Ljosafarl or Khazad with anything - That is really OK. These two nations are strongly defined by their 'ethnicity'. They can follow any religion they want with no problems. Missionaries from the other nations came and converted most of the populace. Those clinging to the old ways simply remained a minority.

Anyway I like this thread :goodjob:

I don't think that a Lich could be Good. Neutral is fine though.


The Ljosalfar and Khazad are pretty closely tied to FoL and RoK. I don't think they are bound to these religions, but not everything makes sense for them. The Order actually fits the Dwarves' theme pretty well (at least their hero, Maros, joined the Order), but AV and OO don't really. For some reason I think that the Empyrean fits the Ljosalfar pretty well, although I'm not sure why. Esus is wrong for them though; if they adopt that, then haven't they really just surrendered to the Svartalfar?

For some reason I think that the Empyrean fits the Ljosalfar pretty well, although I'm not sure why.

The Ljosalfar represnt the Summer Court. Summer is usually sunny (at least in Texas). Also, Arendel seems like a leader who is obsessed about honor and truth, but that might just be me. And of course, they are fighting Esus.

For Calabim- yes, they could convert to Order to stop demons. I can imagine keeping what Vampires really do (drink souls, not just blood) a secret, while using their immense power to keep Infernals at bay. And they don't need to feed so often, they could simply take few dissents.

But Order Calabim (or whenever they turn good) should lose the ability to Feast.

Why's that? They only need to enforce draconic laws, with the punishment being death by vampiric feasting. I'm certain they could get a lot of people to eat that way, and if anyone complains, they can just say, "Look, we're fighting to save the world here. Sometimes you've gotta make sacrifices!"

Esus is wrong for them though; if they adopt that, then haven't they really just surrendered to the Svartalfar?

Yes. Yes they have. Mwahahahahaha!

On a more serious note, the average Ljos citizen wouldn't know about the corruption of the nation. They'd think they were still fighting the evil Svarts.

I think of good liches as Baelnorns. Men who swore to sacrifice themselves in order to protect and serve their nation beyond death.

Calabim and feasting are good with Order. Order is always can find volunteers to sacrifice their lives for the benefit of the righteous cause. Body for army, soul for Mercurians: perfect carreer.

Interesting, very interesting. The problem is just that the Order is deontological, not utilitarian.

Calabim and feasting are good with Order. Order is always can find volunteers to sacrifice their lives for the benefit of the righteous cause. Body for army, soul for Mercurians: perfect carreer.

Especially with Unyielding Order. I picture long queues in which people march down, in uniform step, to the waiting jaws of the vampires, each being killed and consumed in perfect, efficient rhythm...

I think the strangest combo would be Lunan and Runes.

1. Rune's god is representative of earth while the Lunan spend most of their time at sea and. . .

2. Rune's god is the aspect of the harvest, which rewards hard work and repitition. The Lunan are pirates thus theives and bandits who steal from other people.

Its odd alright, but not the strangest. That distinction really belongs to the options that are impossible (Order Infernals, AV Mercurians, Order or AV Grigori)

ehh? how does that last one happen, Grig are with Cassiel and he's agnostic (or do you play unrestricted leaders?)

Well I said it was impossible :p Although you could do it in unrestricted leaders if you want to.

The inability to adopt a religion is actually from the religion weighting of -100 rather than the trait. This also stop Basium from adopting AV, or Hyborem from adopting anything but AV. (Before this change Basium could convert AV, though not easily. You would need to found an AV temple with a (captured?) ritualist and convert immediately, before the religion is removed from the city at the start of the next turn.

I'll give this a shot, I kind of like the Balseraphs, so I'll try that:

AV/Balseraphs: I'm not exactly sure how this would fit because I don't see the Baleraphs as truly evil, they are not out to destroy creation.

Octopus Overlords/Balseraphs: There are repeated references to mind control in the pedia entries related to this. This would actually be the easiest to imagine (for me anyway). Since Perpen is a mind mana sorcerer to the highest extreme of bieng the most powerful in the world (or even in all of creation), he could actually BE the Overlords and controlling his people in this way. At the same time, the genetic manipulation practices of the Balseraphs fits perfectly into the drown and the stygian guard, heck, even the kraken could be a hideously mutated freak or some immoral project involving successive generations of freaks or whatever to produce the kraken. I'm not exactly sure how Keelyn would fit into this.

FoL/Balseraphs: They would probably use nature for thier own benefit, even to the point of experimenting with natural poisons and drugs. They would also try to mutate nature to suit them, or if they can't easily, mutate themselves to fit it.

RoK/Balseraphs: I'm not really sure how this would be made to fit.

CoE/Balseraphs: no idea, honestly

Empyrean/Order: I kind of like KillerClowns's idea back on the first page for these two as they are similar.

...FoL/Balseraphs: They would probably use nature for thier own benefit, even to the point of experimenting with natural poisons and drugs. They would also try to mutate nature to suit them, or if they can't easily, mutate themselves to fit it...


Love it. "Those Balseraphs... they've been loyal followers of the Ways of the Forest, but... why do they pick those brown mushrooms? Everyone knows they make you hallucinate..."

But CoE/Balseraph is too flamingly obvious to ignore. I mean, the Balseraphs are already known slave-traders and a society built on lies. If anything, the more I think about it, the more flavorful CoE seems for the Balseraphs. Crooked carnival games vastly outnumber the fair ones, and those fair ones are merely a lure to get people to gamble higher stakes. Promises of enjoying the most depraved of lusts could be true, but more often prove to be lures for enslavement... or worse. If you know the right people, the right signs, a thousand pleasures await in secret brothels and hidden clubs. If you don't, every day is a gamble... and a rigged one at that. I'm seeing a cross between the seediest parts of Las Vegas and Caligula's Rome.

AV/Balseraph: I can easily see the Balseraphs, pushed to the limit of madness, embracing a form of destructive, perhaps even masochistic insanity and depravity. Eventually, their only pleasure would be in destroying everything, including themselves, until there is nothing left to destroy and they all lie in hell, still smiling with glee as the demons of hell inflict unspeakable tortures.

EDIT: And while I'm here:

RoK/Lanun: "You ask why an old sea-dog like me would worship a god of dirt and stone? Lemme tell ya. Couple of years back, a runty Stonewarden comes preaching. I says to him, 'you can talk fancy, and Hells, you can do magic... but can you sail?' He says to me, 'not yet.' I laugh, but he just sits there and says, 'show me.' So I take him on board for a journey. No piracy, just going back to Innsmouth to pick up some supplies. I figured the runt would snap faster then that thin-skinned Elohim we hired a while before and we'd be dumping him in the ocean. We gives him the worst jobs, but he does them with this real quiet dignity. Never complains. While we're getting drunk, he's keeping everything in top shape. We laugh, and he doesn't even seem bothered. We try and give him work he's too short for, and he finds a way around it. And he learns real fast. If he wasn't working, he was learning. Stuff that takes most new guys a year to learn he picks up in a week. I turn my back and suddenly he can tie knots as well as any old sailor. Pays attention, you see. He didn't love the sea... I tell ya, we learned plenty of Dwarf curse words during that one storm. But he loved the good, honest work. So we finally made it to shore, and I says to him, 'I wish all my new crewmates were like you.' And he says 'they could be.' About then, I decided I'd found me a god to worship. Or. more importantly, for my crew to worship."

The real Balseraph religion is the Stewards of Inequity. This Mammon-related religion is, however, very similar to and likely closely aligned with/linked to the Council of Esus, although they care a little more about then ends of money and injustice than the means. Also, most Mammon followers don't know that they are worshiping him, and thats how he likes it.

(Hmm...I guess Perpentach's compulsion to be perfectly honest --in a literal sense, although rarely sticking to what others think he meant to promise--might be at odds with
CoE though. Eh, thats ok, after all his form of honestly is pretty deceptive.)



Of all the religions in FfH, Esus clearly fits them best. Still, AV is pretty good under Keelyn. (I tend to assume that Giggles is pretty much in charge when she converts.)

AV/Balseraphs: I'm not exactly sure how this would fit because I don't see the Baleraphs as truly evil, they are not out to destroy creation.

"Look, Mister Giggles! If you look close enough at the Burning Sands, you can sort of see faces in the flames! They look kind of like screaming people..."
"Your 'Mister Giggles' is dead. I, Buboes, destroyed him myself, as I shall destroy all of creation!"
"Oooh! Can I ride your pony, Mister Bubbles?"

RoK/Balseraphs: I'm not really sure how this would be made to fit.

The Runes of Kilmorph reward hard work and tradition. The Balseraphs are perfectly fine with that. They just have really screwy traditions and somewhat messed up definitions of "work."

OO/Balseraphs- I seriously doubt that someone would even notice them. This religion blends so nicely into Blaspheraphs empire. "Insane cult of monstrous sea gods, tainting the bodies as well as dreams of their followers? So what? Souds kinda boring... "

OO/Balseraphs- I seriously doubt that someone would even notice them. This religion blends so nicely into Blaspheraphs empire. "Insane cult of monstrous sea gods, tainting the bodies as well as dreams of their followers? So what? Souds kinda boring... "

It would be quite believable if Perpentach's insanity was explained by him having been a prophet of the Overlords, or maybe is an Overlord, but lost mental stability in becoming human, or maybe he is possessed by different Overlords at different times (is there more than one?), explaining his constant mood swings, pardoning a hardened murderer one moment, sentencing a child who wandered onto his lawn chasing after a toy to death (Or some trial that ends in death. "Just jump over the spike pit for Uncle Perpy, and then you can go home.") the next.

Order/Balseraphs: A society of selfish, undisciplined hedonists converting to follow a religion which calls for self-sacrifice and unquestioning obedience to a higher ideal for the greater good. Can't see them doing it sincerely. Now if the Balseraphs were simply engaging in the multiverse's largest guerrilla theater performance ... now that seems like a definite possibility! :crazyeye:

As for Calabrim or the Svartalfar following the Order or the Empyrean, it's a bit of a stretch, but they are more interested in the here and now. Having the Infernals show up and turn Erebus into a low-rent version of Hell would hurt them too much. So adopting a religion that makes it easier to kick the Infernals back into the Pit is just protecting their best interests. (And for the Calabrim, being obstensibly good with the Order is just protective camouflage.)

Rok/Ljosalfar: In my current game as Arendel, I did just that. I needed the money and production bonuses, and since I'm playing on a Great Plains map there wasn't a single forest nearby and the Incense was in the back of the beyond. So RoK, then once I'd expanded to where the Incense was, then FoL. Now about half the map is covered in trees. Besides, there's just something amusing about having Soldiers of Kilmorph protecting your forests!

Liches casting Vitalize: Yes, that's another funny image, and something I was thinking of doing as Svartalfar, but I won by Conquest before I got any Archmages with Vitalize and Death III.

It would be quite believable if Perpentach's insanity was explained by him having been a prophet of the Overlords, or maybe is an Overlord, but lost mental stability in becoming human, or maybe he is possessed by different Overlords at different times (is there more than one?), explaining his constant mood swings, pardoning a hardened murderer one moment, sentencing a child who wandered onto his lawn chasing after a toy to death (Or some trial that ends in death. "Just jump over the spike pit for Uncle Perpy, and then you can go home.") the next.

Perpentach is insane as a reult of him being the most powerful mind mage ever. in his mind, he has a copy of the peronality of everyone he has ever met. (more than one, of some)

Here's one that nobody has mentioned, FoL/Infernals.

I've never actually used FoL as them, but I did get it spread to my city once (through a tech trade, which gave me a disciple). Which is what made me think of this combination.

Honestly though, FoL is the complete opposite of what the Infernals are. I was thinking that they could worship it, in a very twisted inhuman (yes I mean inhuman, not inumane) way. Since the Infernals are all about death and hell, I find it hard to imagine just what the infernals would be doing with FoL.

The closest I could probably think would be out of some sci-fi/horror thing.

The Mercurians would fit with FoL better because they want life to exist, even though Basium's ideology is more of a 'get in my way and die' ideology.

Order/Balseraphs: A society of selfish, undisciplined hedonists converting to follow a religion which calls for self-sacrifice and unquestioning obedience to a higher ideal for the greater good. Can't see them doing it sincerely. Now if the Balseraphs were simply engaging in the multiverse's largest guerrilla theater performance ... now that seems like a definite possibility! :crazyeye:

"At 2:00, the Inquisitor will deliver his report. At 2:30, the execution will begin. At 3:00, we'll begin a recess at pass out the wine. At 3:15, we'll have an orgy. At 4:00, the meeting will be called back to order, and we'll recite our homilies..."

I've also got an image of every man, woman, and child in the city spending all their time training, ensuring that every person knows their role, that every step is memorized perfectly, that every voice is the proper pitch and tone, so that they can launch the biggest, most well-choreographed musical number EVER!

I find a Hippus/FoL combination to be a tad odd, considering the Hippus are nomads on the open range, and FoL focuses on forests. Not as oddball as Calabim/Empyrean (masochist much?), but still...

Here's one that nobody has mentioned, FoL/Infernals.

Impossible combination. Infernals may only choose Ashen Veil or no state religion.

oh yea, forgot that, sorry.

Still, I did manage to get it spread to one city, so, which is why I thought about that.

It would still be impossible in other ways though.

One that hasn't been mentioned:
FoL/Lanun. Sure, trees are great to have around. You don't just build ships out of nothing. But tree worship? That's not very piratey. It would be like Hippus becoming oat worshippers (because oats power their horsies.)

One that has been mentioned, but still hasn't been explained to me satisfactorily:
AV/Elohim. Isn't the point of the Elohim (the order at least, if not the society) that they're doing what they can to minimize suffering, especially that caused by godwars? I can't see any mechanism by which it then becomes okay to unleash Hyborem.

One that hasn't been mentioned:
FoL/Lanun. Sure, trees are great to have around. You don't just build ships out of nothing. But tree worship? That's not very piratey. It would be like Hippus becoming oat worshippers (because oats power their horsies.)

One that has been mentioned, but still hasn't been explained to me satisfactorily:
AV/Elohim. Isn't the point of the Elohim (the order at least, if not the society) that they're doing what they can to minimize suffering, especially that caused by godwars? I can't see any mechanism by which it then becomes okay to unleash Hyborem.

Trees are a symbol of the FoL (because of their slow growth and seasonal changing aspects), but they don't worship trees. Though I agree it would be weird for any FoL civ to cut down a centuries old tree for use in a common warboat that ends up at the bottom of the ocean in a few months, I could see them making a very special warboat out of them. In that case the boat would be seen as the next form of that tree and may even be magically kept alive and growing in its new form.

I could picture an AV elohim based on the protection of unholy sites, or corrupted by the evil artifacts/sites they guard into a darker aspect. The Elohim protect evil as well as holy places, though of course they tend to cotnain/keep people away from the evil places rather than respect them.

AV/Elohim. Isn't the point of the Elohim (the order at least, if not the society) that they're doing what they can to minimize suffering, especially that caused by godwars? I can't see any mechanism by which it then becomes okay to unleash Hyborem
Another possible explanation:
The elohim realise that all the suffering in the world is only because creation is flawed.
Now they help Agares to prove that its flawed so that a new world without suffering can be created. So while they want to bring armagedon so that the one has to act they still try to create it with as less suffering as possible.

I find a Hippus/FoL combination to be a tad odd, considering the Hippus are nomads on the open range, and FoL focuses on forests.

But they are also masters of guerilla warfare, and the cover of trees could provide them with a great advantage in war. The Fellowship of Leaves also values agility and dexterity, traits that are very desirable to a race on horseback. Also, they can keep their plains where no forests grow, and benefit from the bounty of the forest where it does grow, meaning they don't need to use up their open plains for agricultural land. They can keep it as empty space for raising their herds of horses.

What about an AV/Elohim that was purposefully trying to summon Hyborem into this world to kill him once and for all, thereby bringing peace?

Actually, can one kill him? In game, certainly. But in actuality? Mulcarn obviously didn't truly bite the dust when Kylorin slew him, since he's still around (albiet in a mortal's body).

Well when you beat the infernals he says that he'll await you in hell...

Well, the defeat blurb for Hyborem is that he will be waiting for you in hell. So I assume that his physical manifestation can be defeated, but not his spiritual manifestation.

As far as Hippus/FoL goes, they are mercenaries and can probably adapt or learn to adapt to various situations. I know they are best on horses, but I'm sure they are good footsoldiers too and can fight without thier horses if neccesary.

edit: ninjaposted by fenboy, lol. Look at the post time, the exact same minute.

Ah, yeah. I should have remembered that little blurb.

:bump:
From a recent game: The Elohim as Council of Esus. For some reason, I see them as a cross between Buddhist monks and ninjas. Yes, ninjas. FfH needs more ninjas, no? :lol:
Really, though, I couldn't imagine CoE Elohim as anything else. I also imagine they'd become, while still noble, far more pragmatic after adopting the ways of Esus. They'd give you shelter, but would watch you more carefully then the Elohim of old. Less trusting, more secretive, and more willing to use force to defend the sacred.

:bump:
From a recent game: The Elohim as Council of Esus. For some reason, I see them as a cross between Buddhist monks and ninjas. Yes, ninjas. FfH needs more ninjas, no? :lol:
Really, though, I couldn't imagine CoE Elohim as anything else. I also imagine they'd become, while still noble, far more pragmatic after adopting the ways of Esus. They'd give you shelter, but would watch you more carefully then the Elohim of old. Less trusting, more secretive, and more willing to use force to defend the sacred.

Ninjas, holy assassins who attempt to kill leaders to prevent wars/the rise of evil, secret sanctuaries, somehow CoE actually seems to fit them very well, especially if you have one of the other religions very prevalent in your lands, loke if the Order is prevalent, then they tend to target Ashen Veil civs with their assassins, if FoL then they turn forests into huge sanctuaries and kill all who enter without permission, etc.

Several times people have said that the AV Elohim would try to bring Armageddon so the One will return, but the Elohim don't know of the one. Only the Luonnotar know him and thats through blind luck/guesswork.
What would happen if Basium killed Hyborem personally? Would Hyborems soul become trapped in Basium's arm like all other demons that he kills, or would he just return to hell?

RoK/Ljosafarl "See that tree? That tree is over 300 years old. How do I know? Because I have sang the Song of Growth In front of it for every day, every year for 300 years. Now you remember the words right? Trust me you will after 300 years, because that tree is still going to be there, because your going to help me dig the irrigation canals to support it.....

Oddly I can see that quite easily. As semi-immortals (or long lived enough for us mere humans to think so) I can see a religion that focuses so much on tradition and respect for your elders (not a direct aspect of RoK I think, but certainly I envisage respect for elders being a very important thing, respecting the hard work they have done in their life) The connections to Earth and ores representing the respect for the earth that supports the trees which they obviously need so badly.

FoL/Khazad "Some marvels of the Underhome are obvious to see. The Pools of Solitude, The Gap of Brundal or the Crystal Stalagmite. But people often ignore the tenaciousness of the plants that live because of these cold uncaring, unchanging stones. The algae that clings to the pool of solitude live enitrely without light, the creepers that adorn both sides of the Gap are strong enough to support twenty men! And of the Myconids well, if you ever need evidence that nature will always survive, adapt and thrive then look no further than the acres of fungi that have grown for longer than Dwarves have delled the earth. Indeed if the Khazad are to survive this cruel new age, we must embody the aspects of nature. We must grow, adapt and thrive!
(give me a little artistic license here xD)

FoL / Lanun.

"Algae, Kelp, Bladderack... These are the great forests of the ocean, their purity sullied by the corrupting touch of those cephalopod interlopers. We shall fight them in the waves and drive them back to their depths where no sunlight warms the waters."

Pelgadee, Lanun Captain

In game, certainly. But in actuality? Mulcarn obviously didn't truly bite the dust when Kylorin slew him, since he's still around (albiet in a mortal's body).

Auric is a mortal who "inherited" the ice sphere, so to speak. Mulcarn's soul cannot be found in creation or any gods vault. Either he's gone, or with the one.

Malakim/OO

We of the Desert worship the masters of the sea... at the same time as scorching the water from our lands.

At least the OO song would be finally fitting,

I'm having trouble justifying a Doviello/Order combo.

What, you're having trouble seeing the very embodyments of chaos as a Lawful religeon?;)

Chaos is the only order in the universe.

Chaos is the natural "Order" of the Universe.

Interesting enough, I actually have a game where the Elohim have converted to the Ashen Veil. Huge, Marathon, Terra map. I'm playing the Amurites, who worship Esus. "For what better way to learn the secrets and knowledge of Erebus, then to embrace the dark and unseen? To move and not be noticed. To be the one that listens to the secrets spread under veil of night?" Anyway, I'd gotten OO, conquered the Clan (who'd founded RoK), then wiped out the Chislev after I refused to pay them tribute (foolish tribals, demanding tribute of a nation that had just crushed their southern, larger neighbor kingdom). Founded OO during this time, then founded Esus and converted. Spread it to the Calabim to my north (we'd been chummy this whole time), then when I founded AV, I ran one of the Great Sages I'd been churning out to build it's holy site. The very turn after, the Elohim (another friend, since I'd been helping them almost constantly against the expanding Hippus and Bannor. Never hurts to have friends in "high places") took up the Vail. Must have been inspired by my nation's sterling example, and since they were on the other side of the world from me, facing the threat of subjugation by their two neighbors, I figure desperation set in. Junil apparently wasn't doing a thing for them, so the enticing whispers from the dark grew too tempting to ignore.

A few turns after this, the Infernals popped up in the new world and proceeded to turn the whole of it into a burning wreck. Since I was the only one with astronomy, I'd been expanding into the place for a bit. Once I saw that hell terrain creeping up on me, I just couldn't help but think "there goes the neighborhood". It's just me and them in the "New World" and considering just how powerful they've grown in so short a time, I'm not going to be the one to tick them off.

Oh, on a side note, the Elohim turned into a protectorate of the Ljosalfar, who turned around and started handing a lesson in how true conquest should be wagged to the Banor and Hippus. Kinda helps that they summoned the Mercurians in and have sent holy retribution down on their heads.

I'm sitting pretty in my shadow shrouded cities, patiently bidding my time when the whole world goes to hell and those damned forests become the firewood they were born to be.

Interesting enough, I actually have a game where the Elohim have converted to the Ashen Veil.

With default small religion weights, that's rather common.

I'm having trouble justifying a Doviello/Order combo.

I always imagined something along the lines of the religion of the creatures from The Island of Dr. Moreau. Not a perfect match 'cause the Doviello aren't actual beastmen, but close enough.

Myself with the Doviello religions its focusing on different parts of a wolf pack society definetly with Chardon, but maybe with Mahalla its more like the traditional vision of the religion.

CoE- The stealthy and night time aspects of the wolf, emphasizing stealth and speed over raw strength.
Order- Hey wolf law might not be very nice but its always fair, when you get old you get killed for the good of the pack. For the greater good....
Octopuss Overlords- Freedom with the wind and snow blowing in your hair. When your sitting completly alone on a windswept plain you can almost hear voices in the wind.....
FoL- This is more so their celebration of their connection with nature in general, what an important part they play in it, the food chain and mainting the cycle and what-not.
RoK- If you don't pull your weight then your not going to get any food. Alright so the repsecting tradition and your elders is thrown out the door but still the hard work is there.
Ashen Veil- Oddly enough i'm having trouble thinking of this one. The Doviello don't seem to be particularly chummy with the whole destroy the world ideal.

playing an orbis game where i'm the scions of patria and founded the council of esus. that parts no stretch because they're essentially an undead ancient rome, so all the intrigue of esus goes right with them and their dark council. for giving away a cheap tech i converted the elohim as well, which was weird. then i got the hippus to do the same. can't really imagine how the whole horse riding and esus worship go together. maybe instead of honorable mercenaries now they'll just take your money and stab you in the back?

Well Esus is alot about the money and Hippus is mercenaries. Not sure how honorable they are however? At least in my mind, the Tasunke loyal part of Hippus is basically bandits.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Sidar-AV? AV seems to be about demon summoning and undead and the Sidar hate the undead...

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Sidar-AV? AV seems to be about demon summoning and undead and the Sidar hate the undead...
Demons, yes. Undead, no.

Empyrean Calabim always represent Twilight to me. I always imagine Empyrean Vampires as sparkling in the sunlight...

And I didn't even read Twilight, nor I intend to.

All of my knowledge of Twilight vampires comes from the FfH TvTropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FallFromHeaven). (Don't click without loads of time to kill. Also a thanks to Killer Clowns for apparently making this page all alone)

I clicked on "our vamps are different" and it appears that their vamps are closer to golems than vamps. I propose the all vampires with sun magic have an autocast spell that removes vampire and adds golem and weak if a vampire should learn sun magic.

I clicked on "our vamps are different" and it appears that their vamps are closer to golems than vamps.

Dunno, Twilight vampires seem to be as sentient and sapient as humans.

Don't forget gay! Vampires dont ruddy sparkle.... Lol I hate it when ppl link to TvTropes. Its like a rickroll except your trapped all day....

One of the strangest things I've seen is the Kuriotates with the Ashen Veil holy city. This is a pretty common occurrence because other people have complained about it.

The Sheaim under the Empyrean was weird, too.

Don't forget gay! Vampires dont ruddy sparkle.... Lol I hate it when ppl link to TvTropes. Its like a rickroll except your trapped all day....

http://xkcd.com/609

Empyrean Ljosalfar: as already said, doesn't work that bad flavourwise, considering that they are summer elves, and summer is associated with the sun (and their bad history with Esus worshippers). I see Empyrean Ljosalfar as being a step closer to the High Elf archetype.

AV Luchuirp or Amurite: I can see them both adopting it For Science!, with the Luchuirp being more practical about it, while the Amurite would delve into the Veil practices for more of a lust of pure knowledge.

Empyrean Clan of Embers: the most flavourful of redemption options for the Clan, considering the general redemptive nature of that religion and the fact that it seems to be somewhat connected with fire, too (Pillar of Flames).

FoL Bannor - a somewhat hard to justify option, but let's try. "The nature may seem disorganized and random at a first sight. But if you delve deeper, you'll find that all the laws of nature make strict sense and nature works in deeply orderly ways". An Order-FoL hybrid of a kind, maybe with a crusading approach to the forces of evil who seek to defile the natural order of nature with their infernal fires.

RoK Bannor - the values of RoK (tradition, diligence and hardworking) look like they would fit with the Bannor mentality quite well.

OO Elohim - only the Overlords may save the world from much greater evil of Armageddon. I can imagine them being more humane in their practices, as per speculation about softer OO cults in the Broader Alignments thread of the FF subforum.

AV, OO, CoE Bannor - I don't see them as being much softer then their evil-from-the-beginning brothers in the respective faiths. Just the same stuff with a "For the Greater Good" flavour about it. An Amurite AV empire would certainly be a more pleasant place to live in then an AV Bannor.

AV, OO Svartalfar - Dark Elves of less glamorous and more chaotic and facesmashy type, like in Warhammer. Especially OO.

Just saw AV-founding and worshipping Hippi under Tasunke... just cant picture it RP-wise.

Just your regular demonic corruption, with Tasunke and Hippus ruling classes becoming drunk on power and making a deal with Hyborem to increase their power. Tasunke is no paragon of virtue, so that scenario isn't improbable.

Or the Hippus could simply be hired by the demons, with a requirement of the deal being the worship of the demons. With that explanation, the Hippus could worship any religion (Well, except the Empyrean as I doubt they would ever employ mercenaries or force their religion on someone).

I could see the Empyrean hiring mercenaries, but probably only for defensive wars. Forcing their religion does not seem right though.

I could see the Empyrean hiring mercenaries, but probably only for defensive wars. Forcing their religion does not seem right though.

Ironically, that might make the Hippus more likely to follow the Empyrean, though at first only out of a mixture of curiosity and wanting to spite the other, more actively proselytizing, religions.

Empyrean Svartalfar: "There is no shadows without light and light can't be properly appreciated without dark. Shadow and Sun are not antagonists, but two sides of the same coin".

Plus blah blah blah redemption blah blah, or course. :)

:bump:
From a recent game: The Elohim as Council of Esus. For some reason, I see them as a cross between Buddhist monks and ninjas. Yes, ninjas. FfH needs more ninjas, no? :lol:
Really, though, I couldn't imagine CoE Elohim as anything else. I also imagine they'd become, while still noble, far more pragmatic after adopting the ways of Esus. They'd give you shelter, but would watch you more carefully then the Elohim of old. Less trusting, more secretive, and more willing to use force to defend the sacred.

whats the point of ninjas ? they would just get thier asses handed to them by the lanun every game.........

I never had an issue with Empy/Calabim - after all, through a lot of modern history people ascribe god-like portfoilos to things that can hurt or kill - Zeus and his thunderbolts, for instance. While for a lot of people, the sun means light and life, for the Calabim it represents a terror that wounds them each day, forces them inside, weakens them. I can understand, then, how worship of it might start, first underground then spreading.

But typically the god who does evil things (or on whose behalf evil things are done) has benevolent qualities, too.

I don't think that a Lich could be Good. Neutral is fine though.


The Ljosalfar and Khazad are pretty closely tied to FoL and RoK. I don't think they are bound to these religions, but not everything makes sense for them. The Order actually fits the Dwarves' theme pretty well (at least their hero, Maros, joined the Order), but AV and OO don't really. For some reason I think that the Empyrean fits the Ljosalfar pretty well, although I'm not sure why. Esus is wrong for them though; if they adopt that, then haven't they really just surrendered to the Svartalfar?

Way for me to quote a post from a long, long time ago, but...

I once played a game a long time ago as the Ljosalfar where I predictably accepted FoL and spread it and there was all tree hugging goodness, until I founded the Empyrean and decided I wanted to do that instead. So I converted, converted all of my cities, conquered an evil country, and then converted most of the world, even the Evil civilizations, who redeemed themselves in the Light of Lugus.

Not technically a religion/civ combo, per say, but I've recently wondered what a Grigori religious victory with Ashen Veil would look like. Capture the city, build the Stigmata with a Great Person, and let the rest of the world follow...

But what would it look like? Story wise?

'The Grigori are the ones to figure out how to tame the excesses of the Veil, let us follow them?'

Grigori cant win Religous Victories- you have to own the holy city and have the religion as a State Religion, which the Grigori obviously cant.

Really, Grigori AV is simply the corruption amongst men and the idea that every man can be an adventurer, according to their own ideas as an adventurer, whether that be to pillage and plunder or to rape and maim, is unique to the individuals interpretation of Cassiel's philosophy.

I thought religious victory only required the religious shrine.

The oddest one I have seen is Basy worshiping OO.

One of my favs is the xenophobic AV Luchuirp who believe that their golems are superior to people. They want to replace people with golems, not because they believe people deserve to die or anything, but because they see people as imperfect, flawed in design, and think they can do better. They'd eventually bring armageddon as a way to clean up and remove the unnecessary people, leaving their perfect world of immaculate beings. To top it off they create flesh golems--ironically using body magic, which would otherwise be useless to them--to assimilate the survivors, as if to say "we can even do a better job with living tissue." They see the flesh golems as transcendance to perfection through design.

One of my favs is the xenophobic AV Luchuirp who believe that their golems are superior to people. They want to replace people with golems, not because they believe people deserve to die or anything, but because they see people as imperfect, flawed in design, and think they can do better. They'd eventually bring armageddon as a way to clean up and remove the unnecessary people, leaving their perfect world of immaculate beings. To top it off they create flesh golems--ironically using body magic, which would otherwise be useless to them--to assimilate the survivors, as if to say "we can even do a better job with living tissue." They see the flesh golems as transcendance to perfection through design.

all this has happened before, and all this will happen again?

BSG, eh?

One of my favs is the xenophobic AV Luchuirp who believe that their golems are superior to people. They want to replace people with golems, not because they believe people deserve to die or anything, but because they see people as imperfect, flawed in design, and think they can do better. They'd eventually bring armageddon as a way to clean up and remove the unnecessary people, leaving their perfect world of immaculate beings. To top it off they create flesh golems--ironically using body magic, which would otherwise be useless to them--to assimilate the survivors, as if to say "we can even do a better job with living tissue." They see the flesh golems as transcendance to perfection through design.

:borg::borg::assimilate: much? Also sounds a bit like the FF+ Mechanos. Although your AV Luchiurp does make sense, but the only issue is that not even Barnaxus can withstand a volcano.

It does raise the question- can Nonliving units get religions? If so, A horde of AV Golems would be a sight to see.

The machine spirits which power the Mechanos machinery are born from the guilty that Barnaxus felt when Mulcarn had him create Ice Golems during the Age of Ice. They are fiercely agnostic because from their perspective the Gods stood by and failed to intervene during that age. They don't have a religion so much as faith in Science over the Gods.

It is strongly speculated, if not actually proven, that their tech-priests caste have "upgraded" their bodies to machine rather than biological form. They certainly use machinery when healing (think pace-maker), and some of this machinery may contain resident machine spirits.

It does raise the question- can Nonliving units get religions? If so, A horde of AV Golems would be a sight to see.

Only living units are automatically given religions based on what religions are present in the city that builds them, but it is certainly possible to give non-living units religions either through their xml defines (in which case all units of that type would start with the religion) or using python.

Non-living units would not return as angels or manes based on religion though.

Bannor/OO would certainly be off the charts, as well... I can't really imagine that one.

Bannor/OO would certainly be off the charts, as well... I can't really imagine that one.

I may be cynical, but I don't see any difference between Order and OO as far as their control goes. The difference between Unyielding Order and Tower of Complacency is mostly semantic, the difference being that Order demands subservience, while OO imposes it. I can imagine OO taking advantage of the Bannor's hierarchy and lack of individualism. That goes for the Bannor people at least. I can't imagine Sabathiel allowing it.

Yeah, the Bannor are definitely the most morally shady Good civ (despite their in-game leaders being pretty decent).

With the merge of Wild Mana AI, the days of RoK-FoL-world would seem to be over, but that doesn't mean we can't try some justification, so let's try to justify:

Calabim - RoK
Sheaim - RoK
Balseraphs - RoK

beyond generic "blah blah blah redemption blah blah blah".

Yeah, the Bannor are definitely the most morally shady Good civ (despite their in-game leaders being pretty decent).

With the merge of Wild Mana AI, the days of RoK-FoL-world would seem to be over, but that doesn't mean we can't try some justification, so let's try to justify:

Calabim - RoK
Sheaim - RoK
Balseraphs - RoK

beyond generic "blah blah blah redemption blah blah blah".Feasting on fodder/destroying the world/throwing the best musical EVER simply requires a lot of hard work and dedication...

Feasting on fodder doesn't. I guess the Calabim-RoK would be more of a religion whose purpose is to make the non-vampires obedient (work hard, and your vampiric overlords will reward you, while the vampires themselves diligently working at managing the state affairs) with some liberalizations of the policy towards the human cattle.

RoK at its worst also seems to incorporate a bit of a social-darwinist attitude,
(From Cassiel's pedia entry:

a boy who had starved because his family couldn't afford food and the teachings of Kilmorph don't emphasis charity)

that would go well with the Calabim.

I may be cynical, but I don't see any difference between Order and OO as far as their control goes. The difference between Unyielding Order and Tower of Complacency is mostly semantic, the difference being that Order demands subservience, while OO imposes it. I can imagine OO taking advantage of the Bannor's hierarchy and lack of individualism. That goes for the Bannor people at least. I can't imagine Sabathiel allowing it.

No, OO and Order are very different, and frankly more diametrically opposed than the Order and the Ashen Veil. The main Bannor crusades were directed against the worshipers of the overlords, and the chief adviser to the Bannor Emperor is the champion who killed the Burnt Priest.

The Order is pure lawful, and only incidentally good. The Overlords are pure Chaotic, and only incidentally (and very unevenly) evil. The Empyrean is pure good, with little regard for law or chaos. The Ashen Veil is pure evil, with a similar disregard for law or chaos.

Just as Cassiel argues that Good and Evil when taken to an extreme loop back around into the type of fanaticism embodied by both Basium and Hyborem, I argue that the same can be said for law and Chaos. When Chaos descends into pure anarchy, every individual becomes a tyrant and there is no protection if one such tyrant manages to dominate the others. OO and the Order may have similar effects, but they are still quite different. The Order teaches of a single, universal, unchanging, absolute morality to which all must submit. Its worshipers are to have no will of their own and not impose their personal opinions on others, but wholly submit to justice and lead others to do the same. The Overlords are many, limited to certain followers, extremely fickle, and very subjective. Each Overlord seeks to manipulate mankind for very different purposes, and their followers likewise seek to manipulate their gods. Cultists (or at least Speakers) pick and choose which Overlord's messages to follow in different instances, based on what each might give them or how each threatens their goals. OO clergy have no belief in absolute justice, so they see nothing wrong with forcing their own views on others and likewise don't have any strong arguments for protecting their own minds from the intrusions of others.


Before sleeping, Danalin would have been very passive and his worshipers would not have imposed their will on anyone or had a strict hierarchy. Mammon's influence would make then serve themselves instead. This results in something close to Camulos's sphere. Camulos always opposed Junil, even before his fall. He was always an anarchist, but used to be of a different type. He originally represented Pacifistic Anarchism, the lack of a need for any external authority in order to make individuals get along. In this no one considers himself worthy of imposing his will on anyone, and all do what is best for the community without compulsion. After his fall, this became the more familiar violent anarchism, where everyone is a petty despot who hates to be controlled by others but sees no problem forcing others to do his will.

For Calabim/ROK:

Understanding that Kilmorph granted life to Kheldon's inanimate creations, the Calabim worship her in hopes that she will create living beings (food) for them.

Sheaim - OO: Reminds me of Warhammer Forces of Chaos, even though I have very little experience of Warhammer.

Ljosalfar - OO: Worshipping the Overlords who embrace the chaotic side of nature, I guess?

Ljosalfar - Veil: Entropy is a completely natural process. The laws of Nature herself say that the world is bound to destruction, so let's have some benefits from worshipping the god of entropy and destruction among the way - it's only natural. Also can work for Sheaim - FoL.

Sidar - CoE: They're a shadowy and sneaky people, it's definitely the most "in-character" religion for them.

Sidar - RoK: The Sidar also seem quite dedicated and masterful in their field of experience (specialists), so RoK values fit them also.

Sidar - FoL: Emphasising the "unification of life and death" theme. Also, "ancient forest" may sound like something shadowy and misty.

Sidar - Order: A more active Sidar stance against undead and other dark stuff like that.

Sidar - Empyrean: See Svartalfar - Empyrean. Also, not needing the primitive pleasures of the body leads to spiritual enlightenment quite well.

Sidar - Veil: Again, For Science!

Any ideas on Sidar - OO? I can't think of an elegant justification right now.

Sidar - Veil: Again, For Science!

:lol: Maybe this sounds really weird, but are you by any chance a Monkey Island fan?

Maybe this sounds really weird, but are you by any chance a Monkey Island fan?

No. Never even played any of the games.

On-topic, how about unthematic use of religion in-game? I justify militaristic use of the Empyrean (gameplay-wise, Empyrean is very militaristic) as a more militant interpretation of the enlightenment concept, a la Japanese Buddhism versus the original one. But they still would focus more on the enlightenment then on obedience.

I guess Sidar - OO would be a sort of "Waters of Eternal Life" type of thing.

So, looking back, it looks like you DON'T need to adopt a religion to get a Religious Victory: you just need to control the shrine. Which leads to some interesting questions for the agnostic leaders, who can win via religious influence despite not following the religion.

For shits and giggles...

Auric Ascended winning via Order.

Auric Ascended winning via Order.

Eternal winter and stasis is the best way to preserve the unchanging Law.

I rather enjoyed this combination. It offset the barbarian trait nicely. I'm looking forward to getting some druids :)

I randomly rolled Sheelba, and decided I really hate the barb trait, so I decided I'd try Empyrean rather than Ashen Veil.

And then what happens? I found Varn Gosam south of me, trapped on a peninsula. And the Ring of Carcer. And Letum Frigus. And later Decius (Bannor, Neutral) and Auric Ulvin. And I decided... that makes a really fun story.

So sometime after the whole Decius storyline, Sheelba is making anew her Clan of Embers. But she's becoming more disenchanted with Bhall as a god as she goes along. First she encounters Letum Frigus, and is reminded of how Bhall did essentially nothing to thwart the God of Winter, while the orcs struggled in the cold of Everlasting Winter. Meanwhile, with Frostlings returning during Samhain, Sheelba starts realizing that the God of Winter is coming back via Auric Ulvin, and that she must protect her clan from another Age of Ice. Meanwhile, she finds Brigit trapped in a prison of ice, and at first accuses her of treachery to Bhall. But after talking to her for a little while, and realizing that with Mulcarn on the rise, she might find herself trapped in a prison of ice, forsaken by her god.

Sheelba encounters Varn Gosam, who is an elf, and a Goody-Two shoes to boot. So naturally, Varn despises her from the get-go (-4 to relations? Ouch), saying that she's a filthy, evil orc, uneducated, barbaric, and orcs never change. Meanwhile, Varn is taking all of her land! Of course, Sheelba resents this, and resolves to squash the daylights out of Varn.

Decius protests. Decius still considers Varn a friend, even after the whole Talia Gosam debaucle. After all, Varn took him in when his own kingdom would not! But Decius is still rather disenchanted with religion and has finally settled on Neutral. However, Decius and Sheelba become friends too, as Sheelba feels a sort-of kinship to the Bannor, and has finally decided that the past is past. Decius has that sort of philosophy too... especially since they have a common enemy now: Auric.

Finally, as Sheelba's armies are at the gates of Golden Leane, Varn and Sheelba get to talking from over the walls. He accuses her of having no Honor, of being nothing but a savage and dishonest orc. "You may believe you are brave, and that your men die with Honor. But what honor is there in warring with me? Ransacking my libraries, taking all my technologies, and then using them against me? I had no quarrel with you, and you declared war on me! Repeatedly! I only want peace!" Sheelba captured the city, but Varn escaped. But his words got her to thinking... She was going through his former palace in Golden Leane, and stumbled upon his notes about Lugus and Honor. The more she read, the more she felt inclined to agree. Maybe... she ought to embrace the warm and loving light of Lugus, rather than the destructive and harsh light of Bhall? Perhaps the Sun was a better route to counter Auric than Fire? So she founded the Deis Dei and built Temples of the Empyrean throughout the land. She founded the Overcouncil, with the intent of uniting Varn, Decius, and herself to counter the common threat: Mulcarn.

So that's the story so far. The latest development in the drama was that I found Alexis on another continent. She is, of course, not pleased with me. But she's FoL, of all things. Why is the AI for Calabim always FoL? (Seems that way in my experience.)

But she's FoL, of all things. Why is the AI for Calabim always FoL? (Seems that way in my experience.)

FoL is one of earliest founded religions. I've seen them having other religions, however.

Calabim-FoL is an okay fit, actually. The vampire hunter and the human prey. The survival of the fittest. And the vampires are the fittest of all.

Not just Bals -- but PERPENTECH Order -- was odd. My crusaders and paladins were supported by courtesans and taskmasters ... then the Khazad built the Mercurian Gate and I had to take them and Basium down.

Nothing is "odd" for Perpy in the sense that everything is usually odd already.

I have played an MP game with Perpy where I founded Order and then switched to Empyrean after that, because the Malakim player who had founded Empy ended up vassalizing me.

Just got Order Svartalfar in my current game. The rigid discipline of the Order mated to the anarchist leanings of the Svartalfar ... Yeah, this will work real well.

(Actually, Faeryl founded Ashen Veil, whereupon as Order Sidar I stomped her. She adopted Order to curry favor, as the AI usually does when it is losing. Meanwhile the Bannor went FoL.)

the anarchist leanings of the Svartalfar ...

Never viewed the Svartalfar as being that anarchist, more like masters at using "well organized chaos" against their enemies.

Never viewed the Svartalfar as being that anarchist, more like masters at using "well organized chaos" against their enemies.You're right, I've put that badly. At least how I see the Svartalfar, they have a traditional aristocratic caste system whose legal code and social mores they follow in public. However, only the foolish and the inept actually follow the system mindlessly: the truly effective Svartalfar citizen is constantly "gaming the system", using the laws and traditions when they give advantage, and then flouting them when they hinder your interests. But they do not break any law or tradition unless they can ignore or control the consequences. Besides, it's part of the game to get what you want without breaking the letter of the law while warping the intent.

As for warfare, I agree. Both the Summer and Winter Courts practice guerrilla warfare, but the inherent maliciousness of the Svartalfar lends itself better to conflict.

:mwaha:Ashen Veil Bannor:evil:

:devil:"The Bannor had to fight the demons in Hell. Now they want to show them how it is to be token to another and hostile world!":satan:

Yes, I know the thread has been abandoned for more then a year...

Yes, I know the thread has been abandoned for more then a year...

I've said this elsewhere, but there's a strange logic to an AV/Luichirp. First of all, they're scientists, and are unlikely to see any knowledge as forbidden. Secondly, when they meet people, they might see them as poorly formed or mistakes. Finally, they might want to remake creation. "The lady was made too big and not broad enough. Problem solved."

I may be cynical, but I don't see any difference between Order and OO as far as their control goes. The difference between Unyielding Order and Tower of Complacency is mostly semantic, the difference being that Order demands subservience, while OO imposes it. I can imagine OO taking advantage of the Bannor's hierarchy and lack of individualism. That goes for the Bannor people at least. I can't imagine Sabathiel allowing it.

He thinks sabathiel exists:laughingsheaim:

My favorite game to date I was playing as Calabim/Ashen Veil until the Sheaim released Hyboream into the world. About the same time I founded the Order. It was an interesting 180 that my civ took as I became the only good guys powerful enough to stop the legions of hell.

My favorite game to date I was playing as Calabim/Ashen Veil until the Sheaim released Hyboream into the world. About the same time I founded the Order. It was an interesting 180 that my civ took as I became the only good guys powerful enough to stop the legions of hell.

I have an experience similar to yours. I was playing Sheaim under Empyrean when the Hippus summoned Hyborem. He then conquered everyone around me leaving me to fight him.

That reminds me of the time the AI created a massive world war between Ashen Veil and Octopus Overlords while I looked on in awe as the neutral Illians. This world was so messed up that the Octopus Overlords were the good guys.

That reminds me of the time the AI created a massive world war between Ashen Veil and Octopus Overlords while I looked on in awe as the neutral Illians. This world was so messed up that the Octopus Overlords were the good guys.

And the Illians are the innocent bystanders. Did you win?

On the flipside of this, I felt so rotten I had to quit the game when I played Falamar's Lanun in a world that consisted of, besides me, Rhoanna, Sabathiel, Garrim Gyr, and one of the Elohim leaders, I forget which. I just couldn't take the thought that I was the Big Bad by default, since the world was made of candy and sugardrops.

And the Illians are the innocent bystanders. Did you win?
I didn't finish it, but probably would have won. IIRC, it went like this: the Ashen Veil consisted of wickedly powerful Tebryn and Flauros, while the OO was Falamar, Faeryl, Rhoanna, and Einion (they followed The Order but were vassals to Falamar. The Order had been founded earlier by the Bannor before Falamar destroyed them and capitulated Einion). Though there were more OO civs, Sheaim and Calabim were very strong and were rapidly conquering Hippie and Svart lands. They really racked up the armageddon counter, and hell terrain spread like mad though I never saw Hyborem (I think he must have spawned near Falamar and got killed immediately or something). Hell terrain quickly got so big that my snowy empire was the only unhellified place on Erebus (except Einions tiny empire). Eventually the Apocalypse happened before I even finished The Draw. Fortunately my priests of winter all survived the Apocalypse. Apparently the Apocalypse hit Flauros and Tebryn pretty badly, as I started getting messages of their cities getting conquered about twenty turns later. Soon I finished The Draw and got my high priests, but I never really got attacked (the others were probably too busy with their war). In the end, Ascension cut the war short (though I'm pretty sure the OO would've won it had I not intervened) as I launched snowy invasions of their lands. By then, the game was crashing pretty much every three turns, so I stopped there.

I didn't finish it, but probably would have won. IIRC, it went like this: the Ashen Veil consisted of wickedly powerful Tebryn and Flauros, while the OO was Falamar, Faeryl, Rhoanna, and Einion (they followed The Order but were vassals to Falamar. The Order had been founded earlier by the Bannor before Falamar destroyed them and capitulated Einion). Though there were more OO civs, Sheaim and Calabim were very strong and were rapidly conquering Hippie and Svart lands. They really racked up the armageddon counter, and hell terrain spread like mad though I never saw Hyborem (I think he must have spawned near Falamar and got killed immediately or something). Hell terrain quickly got so big that my snowy empire was the only unhellified place on Erebus (except Einions tiny empire). Eventually the Apocalypse happened before I even finished The Draw. Fortunately my priests of winter all survived the Apocalypse. Apparently the Apocalypse hit Flauros and Tebryn pretty badly, as I started getting messages of their cities getting conquered about twenty turns later. Soon I finished The Draw and got my high priests, but I never really got attacked (the others were probably too busy with their war). In the end, Ascension cut the war short (though I'm pretty sure the OO would've won it had I not intervened) as I launched snowy invasions of their lands. By then, the game was crashing pretty much every three turns, so I stopped there.

fairly grim world you wound up with.

fairly grim world you wound up with.Nah, that's just a Tuesday in Erebus.

Nah, that's just a Tuesday in Erebus.

Tuesday normally involves the Order, the Empyrean, or at least RoK.

yeap it sounded more like monday ;)

Now you wonder what happens on....
FRIDAY!!!!


and also this
Balseraphs-CoE
this looks kinda normal unless you consider the high culture the balseraphs are farting...
You'll never know if the next travelling circus is an army of spies
with the craziness in the balseraphs.im pretty sure the things they hide will be in plain site
and no one will notice

and on saturday...


actually I think Svalt and Empyrian would be good. When you cast veil of night you will have hidden nationality vicars which will destroy anyone else trying to create a secret army by robbing their hidden nationality and have Chalid cast pillar of fire before Alakazan comes in and kills some more enemies. When they have their army arrayed against you you can cast blinding light with a Ratha and you're out of there. Not to mention the Demons you could secretly kill with Crown of Brilliance. Seems like a nation with the best intelligence network in the world: Having their own secret spies and the Ability to rat out the enemy spies

Octopus Overlords elves worship deep sea fauna.

I run Empyrean Clan of Embers. It works pretty well, especially if I can get the mirror. Radiant guard spam has never been easier, and Chalid is such a bamf that he compensates for the Clan's lack of both lategame artillery and lategame-effective heroes!

Actually, is it even possible to not do well with empyrean? three or four radiant guards in a city means you pretty much need to be magic immune to take it. That or be the hippus, but pooh to them.

Actually, is it even possible to not do well with empyrean? three or four radiant guards in a city means you pretty much need to be magic immune to take it. That or be the hippus, but pooh to them.

Hordes of Stygian guards coming in from multiple directions. With simultaneous turns on.