I've been reading The Man in The High Castle by Philip K Dick, about a alternate world where the Axis won WW2. It's rather fanciful, but intresting non the less.

What do you think the world would look like if Italy, Germany and Japan had emerged victorious in WW2?

Very bad. Very very bad. For one thing, we won't be posting here; the Internet probably will not exist in anything like its present chaotic form.

In terms of human suffering, probably a new Dark Age will descend across Eurasia.

That's what happens in the book. Suggestions of Sterilising the entire Russian population, The complete eradication of The African population. As far as I can tell, this completely destroys the Reich's economy due to it's insane ideologcial 'targeting' of various groups. At least, this is the suspicion of The Japanese government in the book.

How victorious? Conquer the entire world victorious, or Force the US to peace, occupy the UK, and conquer Russia victorious? Or even UK forced to peace, US never enters, Russia destroyed.

Give me some parameters.

I can see that eventually the Germans and Japanese will turn on each other. Going by the Nazi racial supremacy logic, it just doesn't seem logical to share the world with a people who're not even Caucasian.

Well actually the Germans really treated the Japanese as their "aryan brothers", and believed that the Japanese were part of the aryan race ;) Of course I believe they would turn on eachother, as the Germans obviously wanted to rule the world, and Japan did too.

Japan was simply out of control. The civilian govt and senior-most military officers had long been terrorized by military extremists thru assassinations and the like, resulting in loss of control over the military.

All of its military moves were forced/initiated by the ultranationalists in the army and navy. Tactically brilliant but hardly any overall strategy or plan to end the war. The military just fought on and on.

Hitler believed The Japanese were 'The Aryans of the Pacific/Asia', so I doubt there would have been immediate conflict between the Germans and Russians.

btw, In the Book, Russia, The UK, and The USA no longer really exist in their present forms, with Russia collapsing in the early 40's, and Britain being invaded soon after.

FDR is assasinated before he can tackle the depression, and subsequently America makes a total hotch-potch of dealing with it, leaving the economy slightly buggered, and they subsequently totally screw the war up, leading to America capitaulating in '47, under the face of German invasion in The east, and Japanese invasion in the west. (As far as I can tell, the book hasn't been terribly specific, so far.) Puppet states are created on The Eastern and Western seaboards, being under the control of the Germans and Japanese respectively. A buffer zone in the rockies seperates the two.

So lets go from something near that. Allies totally out of the picture.

I should read that book, sounds funny :lol:

Anyway, I think Italy would sooner or later have been absorbed by Germany, WW2 (the real one) showed the incapabilities of Mussolini and others.
The big question is what would have happened after Hitlers death. The Nazi system was so much centered on him that his death could well have triggered power struggles maybe even up to civil war (like SS vs. Army), depending on when it would have happened and how stabilized the Reich would have been then.

In that situation, I think that Germany and Japan would have eventually locked horns and settled the whole thing. I think Germany would win any such contest. The resources of all of Europe, A good portion of Russia, The east coast of the US and Canada (I presume), influence on S. America, Most likely the Middle East a colony...Africa too for that matter. Stack that up against Japan with the west coast, Australia, China, and India and it looks clear to me. Germany could also be presumed to have the technological edge as well.

Also, given the situation, I would suspect that Germany would get more cooperation from its part of the US than Japan would. A lot of course depends on the occupation strategies of both nations. Neither was renowned for converting conquered people to their cause.

I would think on land Germany would be unbeatable, and at sea, they would have the industrial potential to compete with the japanese. They may also be able to get support from US and UK naval experts, if they were willing to listen.

I read the book. I think it finished with Germany nuking Japan.

P K Dick was very bright. Turtledove has built upon his ideas.

P K Dick died before the Internet and virtual reality but
he expressed his view that the world was a fake.

In that sense he very much anticipated the Matrix.

Let's just say this, I seriously doubt Germany would have let anyone that wasn't a very tight definition of "Germanic-Aryan" descent live in this world. That means if you are mixed ancestry chances are you would have been put to death or forced under some racial/social hierarchy of slavery. Even racially mixed "caucasian" type people would have a lot to fear from Hitler's regime. There is no doubt in my mind that the Germans and Japanese would have ended up having another massive world war. Nazi Germany was not interested in long term treaties but the ultimate racist/fascist ideology of total conquest of the world under the hands of germans alone. The world would NOT be a better place..I am of the opinion that evil eventually turns in on itself. Such an oppressive regime would collapse under its own mentality. Judging by Hitler's increased paranoia and his campaigns to burn books etc. that it would have indeed lead to another dark age of humanity. Instead of archaic religious beliefs in the pre 800 AD period we would have a new archaic system of eugenics and race supremacy as the pseudo-scientific "religion" in the world. S. Americans (except argentinians), Africans, Asians, slavs a lot of "other" caucasians would have been murdered in cold blood to further his goals.

How many of us would be sitting here typing on the computer if that happened? Chances are there would have been no internet, no real personal freedom, a tightly controlled authoritarian society, and a militaristic infrastructure.

Well - what dou you suppose that after Hitler in Germany would arise to power a completely insane one ??

In U.S.S.R. Beria was assasinated after Stalin death by a group of former generals ( Jukov, Hrusciov and so on ) and, honestly - Hrusciov was far more moderate and more "normal" ( in the general limitation for politicians ;) ) that Stalin !!

So I propose an other scenario : Hitler suspectely died in 1948 - after the victory in Russia and U.K. and, in something like "Valkyrya plan" in 1944, Manstein and Guderian kill Himmler and some other idiotical leaders and, in 1950, in a big TV Show exprim regrets for victims of Holocaust ( Jews and Slavs ) and so on ... [/b]

What did you say about this one ?? ;)

Regards

By 1945 Hitler was worn out with the stress of it all - if he had won i doubt he would have lasted much longer, but until he dies of natural causes and the Germans were successful in their aims I think most interest groups would have continued to back him

After he goes I imagine some sort of coup by military old guard types to bring a bit more sanity/stability to the situation. The same crew who back Von Staufenberg. Then it would be a series of deals with remaining countries to exploit the victories' commercial potential. Remember - the big enemies that kept the truly fanatical elements going - Jews and Communists - would be gone and the Germans would finally have the Empire they always wanted and missed out on at the expense of the Brits/French etc. I imagine some sort of attempt to copy the much-admired British Empire but with perhaps some sort of Apartheit system in place favouring Germans/Aryans.

I dont believe they would have kept on fighting - what for? who against? The steam would have gone out of it all after a while. Also, the Nazis were quite keen on public opinion/approval and would not have pushed for a total world conquest if the folks at home were saying - "how about an end to rationing instead of conquering Bolivia?"

Retrenchment/consolidation and eventual stagnation is much more likely

I don't believe that a long-termed fascist government on such a large territory as the german-occupied areas would have worked.
While the Germans themselves were incapable of setting up any major resistance, other people, with less to lose, might have sooner or later. If a large group of people all of the sudden stops cooperating, the "government", or authority, would have been incapable of doing anything against it. A massive juggernaught army would most propably have bloodily surpressed any kind of revolt, but for the price of a martyrium.

Apart from that, I don't believe that the nazis could have carried through their idea of an "aryan race" which would have been suprerior to all others. The germans were (and are...) stupid enough to believe this, but outside of Germany, this would have met only little general sympathy.

Maybe that is just my subjective point of view, but the Germans are a nation of an exceptional number of boneheads, and incapable of "ruling" anything.

Or maybe, in the end the world would have looked like Mallorca.

Similar to 'Fatherland', and another book, which sets out that Britain was occupied, and commandos from the exiled British government in the US are sent in the 1980s to assassinate the Reichsprotektor, (thus juxtaposing the killing of Heydrich and the reprisals at Lidice).

They contain some good, evocative imagery, such as Churchill being hanged in the Tower, but the rope tearing off his head, which is cured and placed on public display. :satan: :D

There is yet another which sets out the Gulf War in such a situation...with Germany and the US onto Iraq and Japan...

Also, Stephen Fry's "Making History" is a terrific novel which sets out what happens if Hitler is prevented from being born. Out-bloody-standing. :goodjob:

Interesting thoughts, and a thought-provoking scenario. Such a situation would have been very good for one such as I, rising rapidly through the ranks of the party...:king: :mwaha:

Originally posted by Ohwell
Well actually the Germans really treated the Japanese as their "aryan brothers", and believed that the Japanese were part of the aryan race ;) Of course I believe they would turn on eachother, as the Germans obviously wanted to rule the world, and Japan did too.

The Japanese in the late 19th Century claimed either:
-They were the missing 13th tribe of Israel.
-They were a tribe of lost northern people-mainly British.

The funny(sick) thing is that their is Japanese Buddhist sect so convinced that they are of Jewish decent that:
-the Emperor of Japan is really a prophet/Jesus.
-the other Jews failed in the conquest of the world (the Book of Zion-Bulls**t) that it is there job to do it for the rest of the Jews

Is that insane or what?

Apparently, the sect have connections with the sect that bombed that underground railway station with sarin gas and are dealing in "black magick".

Yes, this does sound like bulls**t, but they believe in it!

P.S. I do not believe in such rubbish, as I am of Jewish decent. And proud of it.
p.s.s The world conquest hasn't started yet! My brothers!

Well, if the respective nations managed to hold together, they would certainly have gone after each other. I believe Hitler had some respect for Mussolini, so he was safe (for a while, anyway). Japan was different. Japan made an attempt at India during the war, and would certainly have tried again later. Hitler planned to take Russia and North Africa, use a pincer attack on the Middle East from the Caucasus and Sinai, then drive into India. This resulted in an obvious conflict.

Originally posted by redtom


The Japanese in the late 19th Century claimed either:
-They were the missing 13th tribe of Israel.
-They were a tribe of lost northern people-mainly British.

The funny(sick) thing is that their is Japanese Buddhist sect so convinced that they are of Jewish decent that:
-the Emperor of Japan is really a prophet/Jesus.
-the other Jews failed in the conquest of the world (the Book of Zion-Bulls**t) that it is there job to do it for the rest of the Jews

Is that insane or what?

Apparently, the sect have connections with the sect that bombed that underground railway station with sarin gas and are dealing in "black magick".

Yes, this does sound like bulls**t, but they believe in it!

P.S. I do not believe in such rubbish, as I am of Jewish decent. And proud of it.
p.s.s The world conquest hasn't started yet! My brothers!


Um..I shouldn't have to tell you this but most non insane japanese don't believe in these things. Most japanese will tell you that they are most likely descendants from the Korean Choson dynasty or ancient Chinese. Also, why do you seem to get off on pointing out the worst in Japanese culture? I can name quite a few common stereotypes and rumors about Jewish people you wouldn't be pleased to hear about either.