I think i would have to go with lugus. lugus seems to actually care about his followers, like me.

second choice would probably be dagda, god of balance or force. being the god of balance connotes that he would be fair and reasonable with his followers, not being tyrannical or fanatical such as junil.

Agares.

He is more often than the others reffered to as the most powerful of the gods, and by looking at the Ashen Veil description it seems he would provide power for a small sacrifice...

Sirona because she is the wisest of the gods, and she too cares for her worshippers.

i think following agares would be a big gamble seeing as how you go to the heaven of whatever u worshipped while you were alive. i dont know if i would want to spend eternity in hell even if i was in hell's version of middle management.

Sirona, although Lugus wouldn't be bad either. I've always imagined they get along very well (Truth and Wisdom are closely related) and that the priests of one probably have some reverence for the other as well.

i think following agares would be a big gamble seeing as how you go to the heaven of whatever u worshipped while you were alive. i dont know if i would want to spend eternity in hell even if i was in hell's version of middle management.

True, but if Agares ends up winning then everyones going to be going to hell, and those who helped Agares would be better off than those who didn't....

I don't think Agares can win. If worst comes to worst, The One will just destroy creation and start over. Fittingly enough, the God of Despair is fighting a losing battle, and he knows it. His actions are more along the lines of an elaborate protest than an actual uprising. He knows he's going to be damned, and he wants to bring down everyone else with him, so that when he stands before The One at the end of all things, he can gesture at his followers and declare, "See? It's not my fault! Your creation was inherently flawed from the very beginning!"

From what I've heard of the lore, the Veil has three types of followers: Fools who have made short-sighted bargains for power, cowards who are willing to damn countless others if it will put off their own suffering, and nihilists who honestly want the world to end. Agares is the metaphysical embodiment of despair: He does not reward people in the long run.

Do you really think that Agares could defeat THE ONE? From what the Luonnatar say, eventually a day of judgment is coming, and what "heaven" or "hell" you are in at the time wouldn't matter. Assuming (not saying the assumption is correct) that you would be treated better in his hell if you helped him, it would still probably be horrible suffering, and when The One returns and othersare saved and brought to the true Heaven, I suspect you would be left out.

Agares doesn't really have any hope of victory in the long run. He is just trying to take everyone down with him, so he can claim that The One's design was flawed and that his shortcomings are not his fault. He is the Angel of Despair now after all. Misery loves company.

and say you DO follow agares and he wins, there is not garauntee that you will have ANY power. there is always somebody who prayed and sacrificed more or did more to bring about the end of the world so in the end you may end up as just another mane. i would assume it is a very elite, very small number of mortals that actually do end up in any position of authority in agares hierarchical structure.

i think following The One would be boring. because really, if you follow the one then when he comes he will take you to his heaven but the same is true of everybody who followed the good gods so you may as well worship nantosuelta or amathaon since your eventual fate will more or else be the same and you would have a deity that could benefit you now, unlike the luonnator. (except for occasional protection from the one)

Yes, I think Agares has a chance of defeating the One. Was Mulcarn not destroyed by a being that he had the power to create? Couldn't it be the same for the One.

Wouldn't it be better to worship a real god, rather than puppets to the evil One. Which is more evil? Giving 20 children a toy for an hour and then taking it away, or keeping that toy and sharing it with the other 19?

And besides Agares were to lose then by worshipping Agares you would have more power on Erebus (like the Veil Ritualists..), and if you were to die and go to his hell the suffering would only be temporary as creation would be destroyed anyway.

And even if he won and you were put in a meagre position, wouldn't the satisfaction of glorius battle against many opponents and being on the side to beat the one be enough....

Oh, and atleast if Agares won you would still exist. The One is probably as likely to destroy EVERYTHING and start over completely as taking everything back to the "real" heaven...

Sucellus because... well, I just love the whole FoL/nature gods thing.

See, the problem with worshiping Agares is that, you have to sacrifice people. Kinda selfish, a little bit mean. To use the above analogy, I'd rather follow the parent then spend my time so worried about temporary toys. I'd worship the One first and foremost, because it's correct. The One is the one ACTUAL God, all the rest are just angels who have been up to their own business to long. If I were to chose one of the angels, I think I'd go with Sirona, if I can't have THE truth I might as well worship the abstract concept of it.

Yes, I think Agares has a chance of defeating the One. Was Mulcarn not destroyed by a being that he had the power to create? Couldn't it be the same for the One.

You're making an important mistake here. Kylorin didn't kill Mulcarn. The Godslayer killed Mulcarn. Kylorin was merely the instrument that delivered the Godslayer to Mulcarn. And the Godslayer is merely the physical manifestation of an accord between all twenty-one gods, including Mulcarn. You could say that, in a sense, Mulcarn killed himself, as his twenty comrades rained killing blows upon him.

----

I'd have to say that I personally wouldn't worship The One. Sure, he's the one true god, but he doesn't seem to mind people worshipping the angels. I'd revere him if I knew about him, but I wouldn't be like the Luonnatar. The trouble is that The One is mostly irrelevant to the average Erebusian. He's the overdeity and the father of creation, true, but he's basically a god of deism: He created the multiverse, then stepped back and watched things go on their own course. Yes, he'll eventually return, but for now he's mostly an interesting historical note (unless you're the Luonnatar--I'd love to be one of those guys, but I'm assuming we're not important religious figures). The other gods could actually affect me and my life.

I'd have to go with Sirona. Spirit's a pretty good sphere to concern yourself with. Besides, she's pretty nice to her followers, and I know we're not supposed to factor civs into this, but if her most devout disciples are the Elohim, that's a pretty big plus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not saying I would worship Oghma, but I think my general regard to life, in that almost everything is at some level a puzzle to be understood and then "solved" fits in with his philosophies rather well.

Arawn. Technically, worshipping him wouldn't do me any good. But I'd probably show him respect and end up in his realm.

You could also disrespect him and end up in his realm. He doesn't really control how things will be for you there anyway, you do. Or rather, your subconscious mind does, since "your dreams come true" in the netherworld.

You could also disrespect him and end up in his realm. He doesn't really control how things will be for you there anyway, you do. Or rather, your subconscious mind does, since "your dreams come true" in the netherworld.

I never said the two were connected.
I'd show him respect because I'm fond of the idea of a god that doesn't meddle about and screw things up, but keeps things working in a neat and orderly fashion from behind the scenes.
I'd end up in his realm because I wouldn't be serving another god. Although in the world of the living, I might dedicate some time towards mastering my subconscious as well...

For some reason, I've always had a soft spot for Mulcarn. Even though his disciples have to stay overnight in freezing water, I think that his style is very fitting. Besides, it's not like anyone else worships him and I'm sure he appreciates what little worship he does get. His entry in the AoI pedia is depressing because it's obvious he was never thanked for what work he did do.

All of this is Age of Ice or before (maybe post-resurrection as well :P).

Yeah, Mulcarn's not too bad (probbaly the best choice among the "evil" gods anyway). And (post resurrection) he is the only god who really knows what it is like to be human...

Extremly weird poll. I would base my decision on the quality of the heaven they offered, like a divine retirement plan. I would probably pick Amathaon, I like the line abotu him in Buboes pedia entry and it makes me imagien that his heaven is a cheerful interesting place that I could spend centuries discovering. Sirona, Nantosuelta and Sucellus's heavens would probably be nice too.

Oghma's heaven would be nice, it was a world covered with artifacts and vast twisting library's, where people spent their time studying, talking about ideas or in quiet comtemplation. But it was invaded by demons during the Age of Ice and was a battleground during the Age of Rebirth. So I'd be lookign for a less volitle heaven.

This is all assuming I had complete knowledge of the gods/worlds and heavens. Few, if any, people in erebus actually know this stuff so they aren't able to make these kinds of decisions.

Just to be a smart-ass, but if you went along with the sort of belief that "Hey, I'm going to worship the God that gives me the most benefit" you might be in line more with Mammon than anyone else, having used your intellect to harness an "illicit" gain, and get sucked into his Vault in the afterlife. I would love to see that in a short story somewhere, preferably with a priest of some religion, who say, charged excessive fees to use the temple services

I don't think you can choose your god basing your choice on selfish 'retirement plans'. Heh, do you pretend to fool a god ? Or to sell your faith ?
Me, at the opposite of you, follow Bhall because I'm a true believer.
(Mmmh, maybe too because I'm really cold at my office, some heretic to burn would be welcome, or some sort of eternal pyre...)

Just to be a smart-ass, but if you went along with the sort of belief that "Hey, I'm going to worship the God that gives me the most benefit" you might be in line more with Mammon than anyone else, having used your intellect to harness an "illicit" gain, and get sucked into his Vault in the afterlife. I would love to see that in a short story somewhere, preferably with a priest of some religion, who say, charged excessive fees to use the temple services

That is a pretty interesting point. I need to write a story about mammons hell in general one of these days. Its a vast walled city in the center of a wasteland. There is usually a long line of souls waiting to enter.

When a person enters the city he is given a coin and at the center of the city there are enourmous gates which lead out of this horrible place. It costs 21 coins to use the gates.

So the entire city is a place where individulas are attempting to gather 21 coins through any means nessesary. Mammon's demons patrol the city and make sure that it doesnt break just into simple fights for the coins (though people are commonly jumped in shadowy places).

Groups try to handle the problem through "fair" means setting up pyramid schemes or lottery's (either croocked or the eventual victim of an overthrow). Some have given up trying to escape and instead run businesses in the city where they offer incrediaby luxurious services to those willing to give up a coin. Some of the most effective at taking coins through various means dont want to leave but stay in the city getting an occasional coin and turning it in for a month or so of luxary. Groups exist to try to steal coins, or to try to gain the coins by other means (including sham temples to about every god except Mammon).

As for not losing your coin, the games are endless. Many pretend like they have already lost it but people are watched closely from the time their coin is given to them and its difficult to fool the groups that are looking to take them, especially if you keep the coin on you.

There is a slow trickle of people that get enough coins to leave the city. An occasional powerful group leader, or someone that betrayed a powerful group leader at the last minute. But often some simple nobdy who was living in squallor will approach the gates and show his surprising cache of 21 coins he has been gatehring for a few centuries.

Any way it happens no one gets out of mammons hell without sacrificing any personal integrity they may have. They become completly subjected to their desires any willing to cause suffering in anyone else in order to fulfill them.

And where do you go once you turn in the coins? Does Mammon "promote" you into a lesser demon, or do you get resurrected?

And where do you go once you turn in the coins? Does Mammon "promote" you into a lesser demon, or do you get resurrected?

A deeper hell. I dont remember which one it was. I think it was Camulos's battlefields where you were forced to wage horrible violent war for centuries until you begin to delight in the pain and suffering of others (the next stage after willing causing pain and suffering in Mammons hell).

All of the evil gods vaults where interconnected and were created to process human souls into demons. Humans started at different levels depending on how twisted they already were in life. A few were do evil that they bypasssed the entire process and were transformed directly into demons.

edit: I know that Mulcarns hell was the 1st hell in the chain. It was generally sloping down away from a great mountain and it got colder the higher you got. Its real purpose was to drive people down into the next layer through their own pain and suffering, and to serve as a block for those that were trying to escape hell by going through it backwards. It was possible to escape any fo the hells by showing the virtues opposite that which your current hell emphasized to the degree of a saint. Great compassion in Camulos's, self sacrifice in Mammons, etc. That process would end with the long trek across Mulcarns frozen hell, climbing up and up, as it got colder and the terrain got rougher until you reached the top of the mountain and could, in theroy, leave the hells and go out into the ether.

But when processed into demon he would still be lesser demon, right? That was once alive? So not Balor or stronger?

But when processed into demon he would still be lesser demon, right? That was once alive? So not Balor or stronger?

Right, definitly a lesser demon. Greater demons were never mortal.

And on to another, and another, and another... until you are FINALLY ready to become a demon!

How exactly did the Bannor get out of Hell, and where exactly were they in the scheme of things? I got the impression that they were in some sort of Bhall influenced area of Agares's domain, but I could be (very) wrong on that score......

How exactly did the Bannor get out of Hell, and where exactly were they in the scheme of things? I got the impression that they were in some sort of Bhall influenced area of Agares's domain, but I could be (very) wrong on that score......

The important thing to remember about the Bannor is that they weren't souls (petitioners), they were living people dumped in hell. They weren't petitioners, they didnt earn their position in hell so they werent going through this process. They fell directly into Agares vault, though it was partially transformed from the dark ruins of Nyx into a burning wasteland by the arrival of Bhalls slumbering form.

I dont have their activities mapped out. But I always assumed everything they did took place just in that single vault. They were probably attacked in the ruins of Braduk in hell and taken deep into Agares domain and held in oubliettes. Then Sabathiel came through, rleased them from their imprisonment and lead them back through hell to the ruins of Braduk where the fractures Bhall created between creation and hell still existed and they used them to get out.

Why did each of the 7 evil gods fall? Was it all just Agares' manipulation or did each god have different motives, and were the gods different before their fall in any major way?

I'm having a tough choice between Oghma and The One.

Can't speak to their motives, but most of the evil gods were quite different before they joined Agares. Some of them are now the exact opposite of what they were created to be, but others were corrupted in other ways.

Agares: Hope->Despair,
Camulos: Peace->Chaos
Aeron: Physical Strength-> physical rage/baser instincts,
Mammon: Foresight -> Greed/selfish shortsighted schemings,
Ceridwen: Dimensional in the sense of holding planes together turned -> tearing them apart
Bhall: fire/rapid change to protect good and destroy evil -> to destroy evil

Mulcarn: didn't really change, as is appropriate for the god of Stasis. He just disliked men because they were agents of change. He was the least evil of the bunch, and still fulfilled his original purpose although he sided with Agares against The One.

How exactly did Sheaim leader Tebryn (Ran) got his soul captured? Shouldn't his soul upon his death move to appropriate vault?
Also, who moves to Arawns vault? He has not many real followers, and yet most dead come there?

(BTW I love threads like this one)

And I've allway thought that Ceridwen is the only one of fallen gods that didn't change her domain. She (I assume that she is she) wants still hold planes together, in fact she wishes to merge them into one place.

And how does her hell look like? How deep it is? And what Emyrs do? qustions, questions...

How exactly did Sheaim leader Tebryn (Ran) got his soul captured? Shouldn't his soul upon his death move to appropriate vault?

His soul was tormented in Aegar's valut, but it seems that Ceridwen negotiated with Aegar and then made Tebryn offer he couldn't refused....

All the dead were supposed to come to Arawn. But the gods are grabbing them (one of the things the compact allowed).

Tebryn negotiated his soul to be saved from death (an assassin was about to kill him). When he died years later the contract was collected and he was sent to hell where he remained until Cerdiwen negotiated for his release. He will do anything to stay out of hell, including becoming nothing if the world is destroyed.

Im not sure what Ceridwen's vault looks like. I've never really thought about it like I have some of the others.

What happens to say, the soul of an infant that dies at three days old? (which is probably tragically common in a world like Erebus) does Arawn get them? And the petitioner, does it appear with the knowledge and experience that it had in life, or does it start fresh? Do petitioners have physical forms? If they do, can they be harmed? You mentioned Camulous's vault was a battleground, what happened to people who got "hurt" in there?

What happens to say, the soul of an infant that dies at three days old? (which is probably tragically common in a world like Erebus) does Arawn get them? And the petitioner, does it appear with the knowledge and experience that it had in life, or does it start fresh? Do petitioners have physical forms? If they do, can they be harmed? You mentioned Camulous's vault was a battleground, what happened to people who got "hurt" in there?

There are many varities across the vaults (and even different types within a vault). I imagine that in Cernnulos's vault some of the petitioners are physical people, but I think that is rare, most would be animals or even sentient plants living in the world.

Petitioners could be harmed in all the planes I set games in. Death wasnt permanent, and had different repercussions in the different vaults.

In most circumstances the infant would go to Arawns vault. There are exceptions if the child was sacred to a particular god or what have you.

Memories and emotions were whatever the god wanted. Some have complete memories, some have none. Most remember their life as if it was a dream, vague and insubstantial compared to their new life.

So, In Erebus, do newborns have a newly created soul? if so, who is creating them?

edit: I know that Mulcarns hell was the 1st hell in the chain. It was generally sloping down away from a great mountain and it got colder the higher you got. Its real purpose was to drive people down into the next layer through their own pain and suffering, and to serve as a block for those that were trying to escape hell by going through it backwards. It was possible to escape any fo the hells by showing the virtues opposite that which your current hell emphasized to the degree of a saint. Great compassion in Camulos's, self sacrifice in Mammons, etc. That process would end with the long trek across Mulcarns frozen hell, climbing up and up, as it got colder and the terrain got rougher until you reached the top of the mountain and could, in theroy, leave the hells and go out into the ether.

Nice system. So, first you go to the God of Stasis to learn resignation, then you go to the God of Greed to learn selfishness, then the God of War to learn sadism...

What happens now that Mulcarn's dead? Does he still have a vault that accepts petitioners, or to the Evil Dead just fall into the Second Hell? And what would happen to Auric Ulvin if he died (assuming he really is Mulcarn reincarnated)?

I would think it would be more appropriate for Ceridwen to not have an actual vault; her vault would consist of the infinite empty space seperating every other vault, and/or of passageways connecting them. (The Nexus?)

But what do I know.

So, In Erebus, do newborns have a newly created soul? if so, who is creating them?

Good question, the divine spark, the true gift to humanity. That they are decended from the gods is what seperates them from the animals. That allows them to channel the divine, that makes their soul immortal even if that gift has been removed from their form.

I'll have patch "d" up tonight. Check out the History of Fall from Heaven in the concepts section for more details about Nemed, the creation of man, and many other new updates.

I'll have patch "d" up tonight. Check out the History of Fall from Heaven in the concepts section for more details about Nemed, the creation of man, and many other new updates.

Excellent! :D

I'll have patch "d" up tonight. Check out the History of Fall from Heaven in the concepts section for more details about Nemed, the creation of man, and many other new updates.

PLease excuse my naive question. Do you mean the concepts section in the civelopedia, or in some thread somewhere? (and if it's the thread, please tell me where I can find it)

He means in the Civilopedia

But........ But....... I won't be able to look at it then until Thursday. So unfair :(

So, where is Nemed now? Did he give up his immortality too (perhaps needing to sacrifice it to be able to create a new mate), or is he still living? Or perhaps did The One not kick him out of heaven like the others?


So, how can the dwarves use magic? Do they have immortal souls, or are they basically just really good golems? The Elves, Aifons, and Orcs are all descended from humans, thus from Nemed, but the Dwarves were given life by a single Goddess (perhaps similar to how Mulcarn gave Barnaxus sapience, but not a soul). Or did the divine spark from Keldon Ki pass on to his creations just like they would to his physical children?


I'm not sure I like knowing which 10 civs Patria split into, especially seeing that they are all current FfH civs. Having the Kuriotates around for that long kinda bothers me. I always assumed it was a very new but quickly expanding empire. Being new in the Age of Rebirth would seem more fitting for a creation/new birth sphere civ, imho. I also assumed that Perpentach spent all the Age of Ice in the tower of eyes, and so could not have founded the Balseraphs until the Age of Rebirth (although a shorter imprisonment could explain how he survived, since he would be unable to transfer his mind to new bodies while isolated). I'd rather only a few current empires (Elohim, Bannor, etc) be the same as from back then, and even they should have changed significantly. I would rather the 10 factions of Patria be mostly extinct civs, maybe including the Thraxians. (And who are they exactly?)

I'm also not sure I like it saying that every god created his/her own vault. It is really hard for me to imagine a vault of "pure balance" ;)

Did Nemed create a vault prior to sacrificing his precept? If so, what happened to it? Was it controlled by Arawn for a time, then given to Sucellus?

I still don't like the claim that the gods are physically unable to enter Erebus without Mojosi's ritual. How did Nemed here there, and how did the gods wage war directly otherwise. I'd rather say the ritual is only a way around a barrier created by the Compact.

Kheldon isn't a god nor goddess. Kilmorph gave the Dwarves Life. Kheldon was just a man, though a talented sculptor (Read Bambur's Pedia).

Yes, I know. I don't doubt that Kilmorph could give them life and intelligence, but that does not equal an immortal soul. Animals were created and given life by the angels, as were numerous other creatures that serve them, but these do not have souls and cannot channel magic. The history implies that souls can come only from direct descent from the original creations of The One. It does seem that dwarves have souls though, since otherwise I don't see why angels would seek their worship, and they would be unable to use magic.

I have difficulty accepting that anyone but The One could create a new soul. The story of Keldon Ki and Kilmorph is obviously based on Tolkien's story of Aule and and Illuvatar, but I'm not sure our version goes far enough since it is another step removed. Divine Spark, Flame Imperishable, Holy Spirit, whatever you want to call it the source would have to be The One (although in this world I suppose he may have lent it to the angels for a while).


The dwarves are Keldon's creations though, even if their life was not.


I was basing the idea that the soul somehow came from Keldon on the Divine Essence quote ("Every object retains a part of its creator's influence. Are we to expect that there is no part of the gods in us?--Cellion Jarl, spoken just before leaping off the Tower of Prisms"), but I don't really that it justifies it.


Also, what about angels? They are immortal too, and not just the ones made by The One, right? I guess we'll have to allow for more forms of "descent" than normal birth, while still separating it from other forms of creation. Maybe say that animals are made by the angels' power/will from raw elements, while other souls can only be made created out of the very soul of god?

Unless otherwise stated, I'll assume that there is a difference between "whispering new life" into an object (like Mulcarn did to Barnaxus) and "breathing life" into one (like Kilmorph did for the dwarves). The former may just be some magical incantation, but the latter sounds like it may involve imbuing them with a piece of your soul. In that case, it could be assumed that Dwarves do have souls, but their are descended from Kilmorph and not Nemed. That they were not given a gift from all the gods hough does seem to imply that their souls may be inferior to the other races though, which kinda bothers me.

I guess that Ars Moriendi was just lying about ours souls having always existed/ us having been dead before, right?

Question: what is this Bair of Lacuna that Os-Gabella retreated to and what is its relationship to the Amurite world spell Arcane Lacuna? Also, how did Os-Gabella become a student of Kylorin's?

Well, if souls pass into the vaults of the Gods after they die, should the god swipe them up before Arawn gets them, mayhaps Kilmorph just used a couple of "second-hand souls" so give them life.

i didnt expect this many people to say they would follow The One. from a purely selfish standpoint, he doesnt really have anything to offer for your life in Erebu. Also, i am assuming, after you die you would still go to Arawn's vault since his is the "default" afterlife realm.

Well, it offers the best (supposedly) in the completely final sense, and Arawn's vault isn't that bad when compared to Agares's.

But, in which god's vault is the rain which forms some souls to tar demons?

Tar Demons pedia entry:

Unclaimed by heaven and unwanted in hell, such is the fate of souls who held no conviction in life. They lay beneath the dark freezing rain of the first layer of hell, which is abandoned even by its lord and sustain themselves by consuming their own excrement. Over the ages their individual features are lost as hell transforms them into a black amorphous blob, becoming in form what their soul had been in life, obscure and indefinite.

And Kael just said Mulcarn had the first level of evil hell so this must be Arawn's hell?

Also, you would only go to agare's if you worshipped him. if you worshipped a good god you would go to that god's heaven.

Tar Demons pedia entry:

Unclaimed by heaven and unwanted in hell, such is the fate of souls who held no conviction in life. They lay beneath the dark freezing rain of the first layer of hell, which is abandoned even by its lord and sustain themselves by consuming their own excrement. Over the ages their individual features are lost as hell transforms them into a black amorphous blob, becoming in form what their soul had been in life, obscure and indefinite.

And Kael just said Mulcarn had the first level of evil hell so this must be Arawn's hell?

Also, you would only go to agare's if you worshipped him. if you worshipped a good god you would go to that god's heaven.
I don't think that's Arawn's, he's a neutral god.

Of course a worshipper of a good god would end up in a good heaven but I don't think it would be worth taking that risk.

Hrm, it does say that the wind up IN the first layer, and that it is a dark FREEZING rain. And Mulcarn HAS abandoned his Hell (as he is recovering/plotting from within Auric Ulvin or something). So I guess it is indeed Mulcarn's Vault.

but arawn has also abandoned most of his duties as well, such as caring for the souls that enter his hell. I guess we will have to wait until Kael clears this up for up

Arawn does not have a "hell." That term is only used for the Vaults of Evil Gods, which are all linked together anyway. I think that good angel's vaults are known as "heavens," while the neutral ones' are just called vaults. The Netherworld would just be a vault.

He has abandoned creation, to focus exclusively on the Netherworld.



Following The One can offer you immunity to magic both arcane and divine. That would be quite helpful in Erebus. I would probably have chosen him too had I realized it was allowed. I assumed only the angels were options.

Yes, but do you simply have to place your faith in The One, or do you actually have to be one of the Luonnatar? What does it take to become a Luonnatar, anyway? If I'd thought you could become magic immune by revering The One with the same effort as it'd take to revere an angel, I'd have picked him, too, but I figured it took something more than that.

The Luonnotars immunity comes from a single event. You have to understand that the people of Erebus do not have the direct access to the religion page and history that you guys do. Neither did the players in the campaigns. The gods were kept intentionally vague, and there were tons of fake gods, and gods called different names in different areas.

Inside that whole mix was a group who denied that they were gods at all. this was in a world where that abounded with the active stories of gods, magic and angels. It was beyond blashemy, it was idiodic.

But the blashemy was enough for the Order, and they rounded up those they could find (the Luonnotar kept their membership secret). They were chained in the city plaza and told to repent for their blashemy, to repent of their claims that the gods werent real gods. The Luonnotar refused so the Order high priest called down a pillar of fire to destroy them. The pillar scorched the stone of the plaza, burnt off the chains but left the Luonnotar unhurt.

The reason they werent hurt wasnt because the One exerted any influence (he hadn't), but because Junil was unwilling to harm those that were actually correct. The gods in general are confused about the Luonnotar, and worry that their knowledge might be evidence that the One has returned to tell them the truth (since the gods didnt tell them this). So it isnt that they are immune, just that the gods have, thus far, refused to act against the Luonnotar.

How do they know about the One then?

Hrm, it does say that the wind up IN the first layer, and that it is a dark FREEZING rain. And Mulcarn HAS abandoned his Hell (as he is recovering/plotting from within Auric Ulvin or something). So I guess it is indeed Mulcarn's Vault.
So they are too lazy to move on. Makes sense.

So do other kinds of people who are stuck in a certain hell become similar demons too, or do they just stay there until they venture deeper, so the tar demons would be just an exception?

The One.
Why worship servants?

From what Kael posted about Mammon's Hell it sounds like they are stuck in the Hell until they have been sufficiently warped by the owner, then they are moved on to the next Hell to have another aspect of their soul warped and twisted, until they have visited each Hell and are ready to be a Demon.

I got that impression too but where do the weird demons come from, those who are weaker than balors so they can't be real demons?

There are two types of demons: Lesser demons and greater demons. Lesser demons are the corrupted souls of mortals, and greater demons fell with the angel they serve.

There are two types of demons: Lesser demons and greater demons. Lesser demons are the corrupted souls of mortals, and greater demons fell with the angel they serve.

But balors are the weakest greater demons so anyone weaker than them is a lesser demon, supposedly, but the weird demons don't actually fit there.

What are the weird demons that you're talking about?

The Luonnotars immunity comes from a single event. You have to understand that the people of Erebus do not have the direct access to the religion page and history that you guys do. Neither did the players in the campaigns. The gods were kept intentionally vague, and there were tons of fake gods, and gods called different names in different areas.

Inside that whole mix was a group who denied that they were gods at all. this was in a world where that abounded with the active stories of gods, magic and angels. It was beyond blashemy, it was idiodic.

But the blashemy was enough for the Order, and they rounded up those they could find (the Luonnotar kept their membership secret). They were chained in the city plaza and told to repent for their blashemy, to repent of their claims that the gods werent real gods. The Luonnotar refused so the Order high priest called down a pillar of fire to destroy them. The pillar scorched the stone of the plaza, burnt off the chains but left the Luonnotar unhurt.

The reason they werent hurt wasnt because the One exerted any influence (he hadn't), but because Junil was unwilling to harm those that were actually correct. The gods in general are confused about the Luonnotar, and worry that their knowledge might be evidence that the One has returned to tell them the truth (since the gods didnt tell them this). So it isnt that they are immune, just that the gods have, thus far, refused to act against the Luonnotar.
But wouldn't they still be vulnerable to fire magic in that case, as Bhall has lost absolute control of her sphere?

I don't think so. She's only partly lost control of her sphere because some of her angels have defected to other gods, mostly to Lugus. Other Angels control the fire sphere, and presumeably these ones would still be against harming the luonnators.

I don't think so. She's only partly lost control of her sphere because some of her angels have defected to other gods, mostly to Lugus. Other Angels control the fire sphere, and presumeably these ones would still be against harming the luonnators.

There's also Death magic, which is entirely stolen from Arawn. Not to mention just about all arcane magic. Then again, that was just one event in Kael's campaign, and it would be too much trouble to make the Luonnatar only immune to divine magic (not to mention kind of odd and situational).

yeah i am assuming then that a mage could still summon a pit beast to eat the luonnator. just they wouldnt be targeted by any of the gods.

I doubt they would be safe from Agares...it seems evil gods might really target them specifically.

I doubt agares would refrain from harming those who are fro the one... the wole bringing the world to hell is to prove a point. he'll do anything to prove said point... especially helping people do evil to other people.

Okay, so technically they should only be immune to spells cast by divine casters who follow the Order, Fellowship, Runes, or Empyrean (I doubt the Overlords are sane enough to care). But that's too much trouble to code, it's way too situational, and it inexplicably makes Cassiel most powerful when he's trying to kill the greatest servants of the Good gods. I say leave them completely Magic Immune for now.

The paradox is that The One doesn't really want to be worshipped at all. Neither did he abondon the angels - he tried to work with any of them that remained loyal. I feel that The One wants the mortals to believe that the good and neutral angels as actual gods, do good in their names or for their own sake, and just don't acknowledge that there's a creator behind all this.

I would worship Junil. Law and Order, security and justice would be so utterly important in this kind of world.

The Luonnotar story is interesting. They're saved from the angel's power and they don't even know what's going on. I'm pretty sure at least one angel likes them though...

As for Agares and collecting souls for rebelling against The One eventually: It may even be possible for The One to remove his own omnipotence, so that Agares actually have a chance of conquering The One, without the help of the good and neutral angels, and the mortals. Gives them a meaning for existance too. And meaining to all this... creation... is important.

As for Agares and collecting souls for rebelling against The One eventually: It may even be possible for The One to remove his own omnipotence, so that Agares actually have a chance of conquering The One, without the help of the good and neutral angels, and the mortals. Gives them a meaning for existance too. And meaining to all this... creation... is important.

The thing about omnipotence is that you can't so much "remove" it as voluntarily limit yourself. It would be like intentionally holding back in a fight. Thus, if The One limited himself to the point where Agares could defeat him, he would essentially be letting Agares win because he didn't think the forces of Good did a good enough job.

I see the Luonnotar as one of many groups of people who has some theory on life and the universe that they arrive at based on whatever logic they use - only unlike most, they happen to be right. Every mortal on Erebus shoots in the dark. The Luonnatar actually hit something.

It just never occurred to Junil that the Luonnotar simply arrived at the conclusion they reached through their own thought processes. He's not perfect, he's not some psychic. He, like a mortal, is vulnerable to paranoia about something that's not actually happening (in this case, he's worried that The One has picked chosen ones and is telling them "pssst.... this is what's really up" when he's actually just sitting on his duffer).

Is that about the size of it?

So who's vault would the Luonnotar go to, just Arawns?

And what about Cassiel couldn't he tell them about what is really going on?

And what about Cassiel couldn't he tell them about what is really going on?

Cassiel doesn't want humans and Gods to be involved at all. If they have found out about The One, then that's their decision to worship/revere him. Cassiel himself doesn't want Gods to have any part in humanity, and if he teaches others about The One, then they would worship him. Cassiel also believes in human empowerment, and will not intervene with his nation in any way that a normal human could.

Why is Oghma so popular?

I guess the whole pursuit of knowledge thing, I personally went with Nantosuelta for similar reasons and the fact that it's probably a place where you spend all of time creating new things and etc.

Why is Oghma so popular?

Maybe because of Oghma's link to magic, i'm sure a lot of people (given the chance) would like to be fire ball flinging mages...

Or knowledge. I'd like to know everything even if I wasn't a mage.

Personally, Its 'cause I love the Amurites, and, as rusty217 said, being a fireball-flinging mage would be great. I would have gone for the One, though, if I knew. I mainly see myself as a Luonnotar...

i would choose Oghma because ultimate knowledge would end suffering (RL) besides... peace, serenity, and the pursuit of knowledge are wonderful things aka bliss :)

i personally dont find Oghma that appealing though. what good is ultimate knowledge going to do if somebody is casting a pillar of fire at you? or are you going to reason with a newly summoned earth elemental?

Plus, her Vault was overrun by Mamman. Her heaven is practically a hell now. If you go there in the afterlife, you would probably be overcome by the mist and forget all that knowledge you sought.

Is that a relevant point? I still think that someone who (assuming such information is even available for a guy on Erebus) looks at each Angel's vault and decides "I will worshi X so that I will go to his/her/its Vault is actually acting in accord to Mammon's philosophy and will wind up in the evil city vault, looking for coins.

No, I think that's rational thought, Mammon's original purpose. Now he has become the god of greed, so seeking short-term rewards would be more likely a reason to go to his hell.

i dont think that planning for your eternity would mean that you are seeking short-term goals. That seems as about as long term as you can get. and what worshipper of Sirona isnt going to like her because she is kind? if you worship her because she is kind and want her to treat you well by following her devoutly, i fail to see any hypocracy. the gods need worship, you give them worship. you need a vault to go to for the rest of time, they provide that. its a give-take win win for everybody involved.

What I'm trying to say is (and maybe I was doing it badly) is that worshipping an Angel for the express purpose of going to a specific Vault after death, irrespective of what that Angel stands for or wishes, seems a little suspect, and possibly a real identification with Mammon. OTOH, if you really believe that that Angel's aspect is important, and you make your decisions according to a process similar to his/hers, then I don't have a problem with you going to that vault after death.

I don't think it would as Mammon is all about having you cheat others out of what they have and thinking of only how to benefit yourself. In order to go to a gods heaven you would have to be a devout worshiper, so if you choose a god based on their heaven but were still loyal and devout to them you'll go to their heaven regardless of your original reason for worshiping them.

Yes, but remember that Mammon's worshipers are rarely aware of their devotion to him and his aspect. Thats the way he likes it.

I voted Sucellus just because I think his heaven would be really beautiful. All fertile and green and foresty, with his worshipers sleeping in piles of leaves and moss; and pale light filtering through the leaves, bright enough to see comfortably by but dark enough that it's unobtrusive.

I don't think it would as Mammon is all about having you cheat others out of what they have and thinking of only how to benefit yourself. In order to go to a gods heaven you would have to be a devout worshiper, so if you choose a god based on their heaven but were still loyal and devout to them you'll go to their heaven regardless of your original reason for worshiping them.

Yes, but in that case, you wouldn't be devout and loyal to the god. You would be devout and loyal to the reward you expect to get for your services. If Agares himself appeared and told you that he'd create a special portion of his vault where everything is meant to please you (and you had reason to believe him), then who's to say you wouldn't immediately get to work bringing on Armageddon?

On another topic entirely, what gets you in Mulcarn's hell? He's the god of stasis, so would it be laziness (ie an unwillingness to change)? Stubbornness?

Probably, Laziness I guess.

Also, the Tar Demons are said to come from those trapped in his hell for having no convictions in life. I guess those in his hell would mostly be those who had not cared enough to try to change anything, just passively accepting the status quo.

Probably, Laziness I guess.

Also, the Tar Demons are said to come from those trapped in his hell for having no convictions in life. I guess those in his hell would mostly be those who had not cared enough to try to change anything, just passively accepting the status quo.
I'm pretty sure it's sloth. The first hell, icy rain, the lazy ones going there... everything fits.

Mulcarn - Sloth
Mammon - Greed
Camulos - Wrath
Agares - Pride

Not sure about the other three gods though (Aeron, Ceridwen, Esus), maybe:
Esus - Envy
Aeron - Lust
Ceridwen - Gluttony

I don't think you can tie them to the Seven Deadly Sins. Agares, for instance, is Despair, which (strangely enough) isn't considered a Deadly Sin. Also, he's got the last Hell, so ideally you'd be stripped of all Pride by the time you face him. Aeron has the Body sphere, which has enough connections to the Calabim that you could consider him to be Gluttony, except he's also pretty clearly associated with Rage/Wrath. I've no idea what Ceridwen would be. Kylorin's entry in AoI mentions that she's associated with Pain, and her main temptation is "I can get you to be with your wife" (Lust? Pride? A perversion of Love?).

As far as I can tell we have:

Mulcarn: Lack of convictions
Mammon: Greed
Camulos: Chaotic rage (as opposed to righteous anger)
Agares: Despair
Esus: Treachery
Aeron: Wrath, gluttony, or else just giving into "bodily urges" (which would cover Lust as well)
Ceridwen: I haven't the slightest clue
Bhall: Shares a Hell with Agares now

Of course, Mulcarn's Hell is the "highest Hell," so we can assume that most people end up there. I'm not sure if that means "If you're evil, you need to really focus on a particular Evil God to get to their Hell" or simply "most people tend to lack convictions."

Errr, you don't go to a particular hell. You go through each hell starting at Mulcarns (the highest hell) and ending up in Agares'. Its how people are transformed into manes, gradually becoming more evil as they progress. Of course, some of the really evil people get to skip the first few hells ;).

Trying to stick to the seven deadly sins?

I really don't see what gluttony has to do with Ceridwen.

Aeron's "Lust" would probably include pretty much all physical desires/base emotions, including wrath and gluttony.


Edit: Actually, you do go a particular hell, but don't stay there. You start at the level that most exemplifies your chief vice, and go down from there. It is also possible to work your way back up by demonstrating virtue, but that is much harder. Most people skip Mulcarn's hell. Mammon's hell has far more new arrivals from Creation than any of the others.

Errr, you don't go to a particular hell. You go through each hell starting at Mulcarns (the highest hell) and ending up in Agares'. Its how people are transformed into manes, gradually becoming more evil as they progress. Of course, some of the really evil people get to skip the first few hells ;).

I'm just wondering how common it is to "skip" the first few Hells. For instance, I imagine a shopkeeper who embezzles money and cheats his clients wouldn't go straight to Mammon: He's ultimately just too lacking in conviction to care who he hurts. The Evil Corporate CEO who crushes countless lives to retire wealthy, only to discover that money does not give him happiness, and so in a rage he locks the doors of his palace, traps himself, his trophy wife, and his servants inside, and burns everything to the ground, on the other hand...

Well with what is in the Tar demon entry, would those in Mulcarn's hell actually go further down to become a mane, since they would already be a demon....

Or is that just a temporary thing because Mulcarn is absent from he hell?

Or is that only those that were not evil enough to deserve a proper place in any of the hells and not good enough to deserve a place in any neutral or good vaults, thus lacking conviction to any particular vault?

I figure that Tar Demons are considered to be even more pathetic than Manes. They probably just aren't that efficient: A single Tar Demon could be made from the boiled souls of thousands of mortals. They'd prefer it if you went on to the next Hell and eventually became a Mane. It's just that, occasionally, when they scrape all the sticky black goop out of Mulcarn's run-down Hell, some of it falls through a Planar Gate...

I think I would worship Kilmorph, based on the tablets of Bambur discussion. A religion that focused on your near and dear ones, making money through hard work, and avoiding wastefulness, would suit me nicely.

Trying to stick to the seven deadly sins?

I really don't see what gluttony has to do with Ceridwen.

Aeron's "Lust" would probably include pretty much all physical desires/base emotions, including wrath and gluttony.


Edit: Actually, you do go a particular hell, but don't stay there. You start at the level that most exemplifies your chief vice, and go down from there. It is also possible to work your way back up by demonstrating virtue, but that is much harder. Most people skip Mulcarn's hell. Mammon's hell has far more new arrivals from Creation than any of the others.
And after they become demons in Agares's hell do they become those which are the type of the hell they started in?
(except that it doesn't work.. or does it? Ruhin would be likely to go to Esus's hell in the beginning but where would the others start in? And is their power related to the starting hell, but then Esus should be lower than others... I got confused now. Could someone wiser tell me what it's about?)

i would worship agares to burn all those good doers with my infernal powers , get killed and come back as a demon and kill even more good doers :evil: .altough if mulcarn wasnt dead ( or more appropriately if i didnt think he was dead) i would have worshipped him he always seemed pretty cool, not to evil when compare to the other evil gods.

I would definitely worship the One

I would worship Oghma... to me heaven is a infinite library that i can do all sorts of research and experiments in...

I don't get why so many people would worship the one. There is simply no reason to.

1. Most people don't even know about the One
2. Even most of the people who do know about him probably doubt his actual existance, whereas the existance of angels and other Gods is pretty much common knowledge.
3. There are no rewards during your life for worshipping him, other then the unreliable fact that other gods may be wary to use magic to harm you.
4. There is no heaven for his worshippers so you'd just be stuck in arawn's realm.

I don't get why so many people would worship the one. There is simply no reason to.

Because we as players, metagame like crazy? ;)

Seriously though, putting the One in this poll was probably a poor choice that has distorted the results. As Kol.7 says above, how likely are you, as an average peasant or craftsman in Erebus, to have even heard of the One? Even discussing his existence is heretical in most civilisations, and even Cassiel views the outright worship of the One as distasteful.

I think it is hard to divorce oneself from our world view. According to us, the One is the equivalent of God, while all the other gods are, in fact, false gods. So I'd say most people have trouble resigning themselves to the idea of worshipping a "false god".

Actually, while I previously voted Arawn, the more I think about it, the more I realize I'd actually be likely to worship Esus.
I'm a secretive fellow, and hell, I admit, a bit paranoid. I encrypt anything that might be of even minor use to a would-be identity thief or blackmailer. I'm the sort who frequently checks his own internet footprint to make sure it's plenty small, and that connecting the dots is a difficult task. So I'd do well among the shadowy followers and disciples of Esus.

I think it is hard to divorce oneself from our world view. According to us, the One is the equivalent of God, while all the other gods are, in fact, false gods. So I'd say most people have trouble resigning themselves to the idea of worshipping a "false god".

That's a good point. I think people also tend to empathize with Cassiel because he's "right."

Does it seem to anyone else that the only neutral gods are Dagda, Arawn, and maybe Oghma?

Does it seem to anyone else that the only neutral gods are Dagda, Arawn, and maybe Oghma?

They're definetly the most actively neutral. But I recall that Tali, Kilmorph, Danalin, and Cernunnos are also neutral. I've heard little of Tali, save that she (I think it was she, anyways, although I'm unsure) is something of a trickster. Danalin is neutral, but he's fast asleep and his dreams are being corrupted by the archangel of the evil Mammon. (His "religion," the Octopus Overlords, is neutral or evil only... I would imagine neutral civs would embrace Danalin's aspect more, while evil civs would embrace Mammon's.) Likewise, while basically benevolent, Kilmorph is still a neutral goddess; she doesn't demand goodness and righteousness from her followers, although her codes forbid outright cruelty and malevolence. Whereas Junil is considered truly good because he demands that his followers fight evil wherever they find it, a follower of Kilmorph would have no religious qualms about selling a war machine to the Infernals. Cernunnos, if I understand it properly, is mostly in the maintenance business. He's not even a proper god, but a promoted archangel. He just makes sure nature runs as it should. The Fellowship of Leaves doesn't worship him so much as his handiwork, and they can interpret the message of nature in many different ways without a god stepping in and correcting them.

They're definetly the most actively neutral. But I recall that Tali, Kilmorph, Danalin, and Cernunnos are also neutral. I've heard little of Tali, save that she (I think it was she, anyways, although I'm unsure) is something of a trickster. Danalin is neutral, but he's fast asleep and his dreams are being corrupted by the archangel of the evil Mammon. (His "religion," the Octopus Overlords, is neutral or evil only... I would imagine neutral civs would embrace Danalin's aspect more, while evil civs would embrace Mammon's.) Likewise, while basically benevolent, Kilmorph is still a neutral goddess; she doesn't demand goodness and righteousness from her followers, although her codes forbid outright cruelty and malevolence. Whereas Junil is considered truly good because he demands that his followers fight evil wherever they find it, a follower of Kilmorph would have no religious qualms about selling a war machine to the Infernals. Cernunnos, if I understand it properly, is mostly in the maintenance business. He's not even a proper god, but a promoted archangel. He just makes sure nature runs as it should. The Fellowship of Leaves doesn't worship him so much as his handiwork, and they can interpret the message of nature in many different ways without a god stepping in and correcting them.

I think Milosrdenstvi meant "neutral" as not interfering with anything. In which case Danalin should be added to that short list, since he was so passive when awake. Kilmorph and Cernunnos, however, are very opinionated about the affairs of angels and mankind.

Yes, what I meant was that even though Tali, Kilmorph, Danalin, and Cernunnos are technically neutral, they don't really act that way: Tali is at least slightly evil; Danalin is not purposefully evil but for all intents and purposes he is; Kilmorph always seemed to support the virtue side of things to me; and Cernunnos also seems to be more about preserving life on Erebus than anything else. So I suppose I mean they-all seem more neutral than the 'good' and 'evil' but less purely neutral than Dagda, Arawn, and Oghma.

Danalin is not purposefully evil but for all intents and purposes he is;

Ummm...I'm not sure that makes any sense. Wouldn't being evil for all intents and purposes mean, by definition, that he is purposefully evil?


Overall I agree with what you are saying though. Kilmorph certainly acts like a good god(dess), at least to the dwarves. If dwarves instead of men made the alignment she would definitely be good. Evil gods are the ones that follow Agares, but while good ones are the ones that fight aginats them, to protect humanity, as seen by humanity. The difference between good an neutral are minor though. Also, Cernunnos was the first angel to confront/attack Agares directly. It may be that he is still to shaken by the dark vision of himself (which came to life and become Hyborem) to again fight evil directly.

Wouldn't being evil for all intents and purposes mean, by definition, that he is purposefully evil?

Sorry, bad use of idiom...

The One is way too abstract for my tastes here. Arawn is right up my street, though.

I admit, a bit paranoid.

Aren't we all? :crazyeye:

Yes, what I meant was that even though Tali, Kilmorph, Danalin, and Cernunnos are technically neutral, they don't really act that way: Tali is at least slightly evil; Danalin is not purposefully evil but for all intents and purposes he is; Kilmorph always seemed to support the virtue side of things to me; and Cernunnos also seems to be more about preserving life on Erebus than anything else. So I suppose I mean they-all seem more neutral than the 'good' and 'evil' but less purely neutral than Dagda, Arawn, and Oghma.

Ah, I misunderstood ye. You meant neutral parties in the various wars of Erebus, I was thinking alignmentwise. Should've realized that... although I still stand by Danalin since Mammon is more involved in the creation of the Overlords than Danalin; the latter is the unwitting and unwilling vessel.

I believe it was stated that Danalin was the least involved in the godswar.

i think in the history of ffh page, it says secullus and danalin stayed out of the war and tended to their peoples, the elves and aifons, respectively.

Kilmorph. I've always thought of her as a bit like a sheepdog, passive agressive, until her flock is threatened, then resposing with all the power of the Earth to inflict tremendous damage. If her followers were human(not dwarf) then she would probably be good. But, then i may be completly wrong.

I'm conflicted.

Whenever I read in the news about disasters or whatever, I think like: "Well they can all go to hell for all I care". Note that I will not actively pursue a goal of damning every mortal's soul. They can do it themselves.

Before Bhall's fall I might have worshipped her. But then again, the very human nature is against change. Even though I say things like: "Without change things will never get better". I guess the stasis makes us feel safe. Yet Mulcarn's new view on the matter is not my thing either.

Stewards of Inequity and unwittingly serving Mammon? Well I generally do not concern myself with such moral questions as: "If I were to do this that either benefits me or pleasures me, would somebody else be harmed?". On the other hand, it mostly applies to the people I do not know. So I probably would not cheat my mother out of her money but if my selfish consumption leads to a child starwing half a world away, fine. Perhaps I lean towards Kilmorph. Tradition is another of the aspects she represents. Interesting.

Junil? Don't even suggest worshipping this control freak.

Lugus? Well I am very much nocturnal and my eyes pretty light sensitive. (aka daylight is too bright for me, 10 years devoted to video games does that to anybody I assume.) But perhaps Lugus does not care for exaggerated displays of devotion.

Esus? I don't betray ALL of my friends. I do lie a lot though. Helps me keep out of trouble. But I would not say I am for Tali either, as I don't relish in causing random mischief.

The One? Give me a break. Too similar to the christian god.

I guess I'll take Sirona for the lack of a better option.

Probably The One really, as he's presumably the perfect union of all the good parts of the other gods. The balance of Dagda is nice, but oddly enough it can be taken to extremes; sometimes it is right to come down hard on one side of an argument.

Amathaon:

1) He is good

2) As a god of Inspiration, he would be a patron of art, thought, and innovation.

3) Butterflies are cool:p

They are all horrible choices, so I will disect the most chosen gods.

The One: If hes so powerful, why would he care for tiny insects like us. The entirety of sentient life would be as this fly I just killed, inconsequential.

Oghma: The god of study, knowledge, etc. This one surprised me, but here we go. The god of knowledge would be at heart, pacifist. Not that they believe in kindness or anything, they have no time for kindness, there are more things to study, more to catalogue. When the world is over, the last follower of Oghma will celebrate. He can read anything, everything! Study for a life time! Than his glasses fall off. "WHHY!! ITS NOT FAIR, ITS NOT FAIR!!!"

Sirona: The goddess of peace, harmony, inaction. Unlike Oghma, shes the merciful pacifist. Peace is the worst idea in a world like Erebus where, depending where you go: you could get eaten, raped and than killed for sport, dragged to a huge altar of fire and burnt for some mad fire goddess, killed for questioning the order, killed for stepping in some random ruins with big black crystals in them. Peace in all of these circumstances, are bad. In the end, peace is a sign of the weak, and the weak die. The strong live off the weak in a horrifying jungle of suffering, that is life.

Sirona isn't really a goddess of inaction. She is a goddess of selfless action. Inaction is really more part of the sphere of her good friend Danalin, whose sphere is corrupted since he is deep in sleep and being tormented by Hastur. Peace was the sphere of Camulos, but he willfully fell and became the god of strife. However, the way I see it, she in her mercy has been trying to fulfill the original roles of Danalin (serenity), Camulos (peace), Agares (hope), Esus (trust), Ceridwen (the emotional bonds that tie us together), and Mammon (making decisions that make everyone's future better) and is overwhelmed. Mercy and Meekness is not weakness, but she simply cannot hope to carry the load of 7 gods. She is understandably worn out.



It sounds to me like you are probably a follower of either Aeron or Camulos.

It sounds to me like you are probably a follower of either Aeron or Camulos.

Word, voted for Camulos.
I said inaction to be biting in a way, I suppose the goddess of peace has to work for peace, yes?
Mercy and Meekness however are weaknesses, unless they benefit you. Which it often does. Altruism has a genetic basis, since it helps you exploit and benefit off others. This is entirely unconscious, however it happens since it aids the survival of your genes in the end.

But back to my eariler point, that I forgot to make. All the gods are bad choices because since this a more realistic world they arn't really good or evil yes? Good is basically what is good for the person. After all, Junil is technically a god of good, but is he a good god to the people the order kill in his name? You might say that the Order is being manipulated by outside forces, but think about it. Junil is the god of Unquestioning Order. What happens when one questions?

Just because Sirona is the goddess of peace isn't good. What if peace isn't the answer? For example the Doviello attack the Elohim and is fought back, with the Doviello weakened it would be smart for the Elohim to attack and destroy the Doviello to create less competition and create a safer environment. The Elohim however basically serve Sirona, not in any organized religion that I know of, but they follow the generally same things as peace and harmony and such. So they won't attack, they might be naive enough to believe that the Doviello might have "Learned Their Lesson".

Basically I believe the FFH gods are all based off human traits that have been put into extremes. God of Peace, would also be God of Naive-ity. God of Order, God of Intolerance.

And that, Atnanor, is why this is dark fantasy :D Making the good so good they become weak (Siriona) or evil (Junil, yes I realize that it's more intolerant, but it makes him seem evil sometimes).

And that, Atnanor, is why this is dark fantasy :D Making the good so good they become weak (Siriona) or evil (Junil, yes I realize that it's more intolerant, but it makes him seem evil sometimes).

He isn't evil, and in a way, he isn't especially intolerant; an orc wishing to follow Junil would be accepted without hesitation, if his intents were pure. A truly repentant former follower of the Ashen Veil might also be allowed into Junil's service, although not without first paying off his debts to society. Junil is fighting for what's right in the long term, for the human race as a whole. I know of a rather idealistic, and altogether agreeable, self-proclaimed fascist who would get along with Junil quite well. Problem is, Junil has absolutely no compunctions about killing individuals for the greater good and whatnot.
I've always imagined him as seeing himself somewhat like a doctor, looking at the human race as his patient and human beings as cells. If cells get infected, you remove them. From our perspective, of course, this is very unpleasant. But a follower of Junil would argue that we are to Junil what cells are to a doctor; that Junil, knowing what is best for us, has every right to do things that seem evil because they are for a purpose beyond our possible understanding. (Personally, I wouldn't agree with this metaphor; humans can understand Junil, partially, but cells cannot even begin to understand doctors.)
Junil isn't particularly popular, so I feel like arguing for him as the Devil's (Angel's?) Advocate.

And that, Atnanor, is why this is dark fantasy Making the good so good they become weak (Siriona) or evil (Junil, yes I realize that it's more intolerant, but it makes him seem evil sometimes).

I love it like that, makes the gods seem believable.

And to KillerClowns, Junil doesn't seem to really care for keeping humanity "Healthy" in the long run but more about keeping the Rules and Law foremost, and removing everything in the way.

I would imagine Junil would want all races to be exactly the same, and do the exact same things, in the exact same ways. But of course gods are given free will so they do not have to conform EXACTLY to their spheres.

Lastly I never said the Order was intolerant against other races, I was talking about other religions. Oh Empreyans and RoK are tolerated, but not really accepted. However, Leafs (since they enjoy tearing paladins apart with treants), Esus's boyz, those particularly strange fellows with the squid faces, and lastly Hyborem and his homies THE ASHEN VEIL!!!

Of course intolerance can be towards anything for any reason. Its a xenophobic reaction, it can be against anything that's different, from skin color to nose size.

Maybe intolerant wasn't the right word. I'm thinking more along the lines of Junil doesn't like people who don't do what he wants. He's, as has been said, kind of like a dictator, albiet one who is fighting for the greater good and to destroy all evil.

Esus. Definitely Esus. I'm all for this shadow business :)

And to KillerClowns, Junil doesn't seem to really care for keeping humanity "Healthy" in the long run but more about keeping the Rules and Law foremost, and removing everything in the way...

From Junil's perspective, those are one in the same. His philosophies are based on the assumption that failure to obey laws are the root of evil. (My own philosophies are miles away from this, of course, but I am not Junil. A pity; I'd love a private army of angels and horde of fanatics.) His ideal world, probably an unachievable one, is one where everybody knows their place, but nobody goes hungry and nobody goes unhappy. He intends to achieve this by assuring no laws are broken. I imagine he'll nick a page out of 1984 to do this, of course, by making it impossible to even think of breaking laws. But unlike the government in 1984, he doesn't actually desire power for power's sake. He desires power to make the world, in his eyes, a better place.
This is a completely wild guess, but Junil actually strikes me as being something of a communist in a way. (No offense to actual communists. Bear with me here.) In the famous Political Compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/), I'd wager he'd be in the Authoritarian Left; think Mao or Lenin. Then again, my perspective is a bit tainted; I'm only playing the devil's advocate, but I'd also like to think of Junil as being the opposite of me.

Mammon is perfect for me.

I'd wager he'd be in the Authoritarian Left; think Mao or Lenin. Then again, my perspective is a bit tainted; I'm only playing the devil's advocate, but I'd also like to think of Junil as being the opposite of me.

Your right-wing?
*shifts uncomfortably*

Agares seems to be the only one who thinks Creation was a bad idea anyway, so I think I'd go for Agares. Furthermore, I like science and magical powers, so Ashen Veil would provide me with that, as long as I had to live.

He doesn't think Creation is bad thing, he's just mad that the one took away his power to create. So he's seeking to destroy Creation to prove that Creation is flawed.

well, it is flawed, so he's got a point there, raight?

It wasn't flawed before he came along... ;)

It wasn't flawed before he came along... ;)

But he came along before it, so it has always been flawed...

If you want to get technical it became flawed the moment the One took away the power to create because at that exact moment is when Agares fell and went against the One.

I'm going with bhall because...
Need I say more?

If you want to get technical it became flawed the moment the One took away the power to create because at that exact moment is when Agares fell and went against the One.

And before his fall everything wasn't so completely tainted with evil that the One even stepping into Creation would destroy everything

so, what happens if agares succeeds in proving that creation is flawed (by destroying it, maybe?)

Agares is a Product of Creation from the One. The One gave Creation to Agares and later he took it away from him and the other Gods. So The One - who supposingly is omniscient - does not foresee that one or more Gods won't be very happy to have supreme power and then lose it. Maybe. Or he saw that Agares would turn against him (just like Jesus and Judas) but wanted Agares to turn away from him. This caused the Flaw in creation, which seems to be the Agares-"theme". So Agares tries to prove his "meaning of existence" by proving that creation is flawed (which is because of Agares). And possibly that's exactly the thing the One wants from him, but why?

So The One is just giving a test to Agares and Erebus is the final part of this test?

this really is an interesting interpretation.

If this is a test for Agares, then Creation doesn't have a Flaw at all. Agares is part of the creation not apart of it. He was created by the One. And if the One creates something, it can't be flawed. So if Agares abandones the One, this must have been planned somehow. Agares would be wrong, because he THINKS he is a flaw, he thinks he is apart of Creation, apart of the one, he seeks to destroy it, to prove, that he is the prove that it has a flaw. But it does not - because he is just exactly doing, what the One planned when he created him, gave him the power to create, and then took away this power again.
of course this is only an idea :)

But that would make The One really, really mean!:p

that's why I would worship Agares, I have a heart for poor gods that are completely a playball of The One. Poor Agares *sob*

Maybe the One isn't ominipotent after all. If I lived in Erebus, I probably would have to worship Kael.

Maybe the One isn't ominipotent after all. If I lived in Erebus, I probably would have to worship Kael.

Kael is commonly refered to as The One.

Maybe the One isn't ominipotent after all. If I lived in Erebus, I probably would have to worship Kael.

I agree that the isn't omniscient in the way of not seeing the future (I doubt he planned on Agares falling) but I think he's omnipotent in the way of being the "pure truth" which is why if he came back to creation it he would destroy all corruption or the removal of the false which unfortunately because of Agares would be everything.

Whatever, this is the typical omnipotent paradoxical stuff.
I tend to shy away from stuff like that. Empirical methods are my style and I leave philosophy to more capable individuals.

As for who I'd worship, Oghma.

well... if The One is not Omniscient ("knows everything") but he is Omnipotent ("can do everything") even then, we should assume, that The One, the Source of Everything, can do think logical. If you give some individuals supreme power (to create worlds) and then you take this power away from them... was there not the slightest doubt, that they will be cheerful, no doubt, that the would happily give up their power? I think there was. Either The One is mean (s.a.) or he is not very smart. Or is this the flaw in creation, that he created gods, that don't do what he foresees? Then Agares had, again, a point by proving that it is flawed.

well either way, I suppose the discussion reached it's point of being all new and fluffy :)

Kael is commonly refered to as The One.


So there shouldn`t be the Altar of Luonatar but a PC with Civ4 and FFH. If you want to win altar victory, you must complete the PC from parts, install system, install Civ4, install BtS, and finaly install FFH, and then you can push play button... and you will be a new god of creation ;)

Oghma, knowledge is power, ftw.

So there shouldn`t be the Altar of Luonatar but a PC with Civ4 and FFH. If you want to win altar victory, you must complete the PC from parts, install system, install Civ4, install BtS, and finaly install FFH, and then you can push play button... and you will be a new god of creation ;)

Don't forget patching BtS to 0.17 ;)

I remembered something that didn't catch my eye at first but now seems kind of funny when I think about it in rereading this thread. Mulcarn had a group of souls frozen in his hell that seemed to be large enough to form an army but not overwhelmingly so. Are these the souls of the people who actually worshipped Mulcarn instead of the many souls who ended up there just as a stop to lower hells. It seems like Mulcarn was never a popular god and perhaps the total number of people that actively worshipped him could actually fit around his throne. That also highlights the fact that he really gets the short end of the stick when it comes to followers and that he might have felt especially "grandfatherly" towards the few people that did follow him and kept them from becoming true demons in the lower hells.

I'd worship none of the gods, even The One. The need to worship is part of the taint introduced when the angels fell. By worshipping any god (even The One) I am infact perpetuating the taint which is preventing The One from entering creation safely.

Acknowledging the original purpose of the Angels without worshipping them seems the more sensible path to me. Before the fall, each Angel was the embodiment of an ideal and (theoretically at least) these balance each other out to create a perfect world/life.

You'd think I would be a grigori player wouldn't you, but I hate their mechanic =p

I'd worship none of the gods, even The One. The need to worship is part of the taint introduced when the angels fell. By worshipping any god (even The One) I am infact perpetuating the taint which is preventing The One from entering creation safely.

Acknowledging the original purpose of the Angels without worshipping them seems the more sensible path to me. Before the fall, each Angel was the embodiment of an ideal and (theoretically at least) these balance each other out to create a perfect world/life.

You'd think I would be a grigori player wouldn't you, but I hate their mechanic =p

This is totally wrong, all the Angels worshipped the One before the fall. Cassiel doesn't seem to realize this however, I guess that he missed something along the way.

Each Angel was made to serve the One and to serve the creations that would come after. For the first time other voices were heard as they began to sing and praise the One.

This is totally wrong, all the Angels worshipped the One before the fall. Cassiel doesn't seem to realize this however, I guess that he missed something along the way.

That's a fair enough find, but I don't think 'praise' means 'worship' in this case. The One deserved to be praised, as he had created the world and the angels, but he never wants to be worshipped.

Regardless, angels worshipping the one isn't the same as mortal need for worship, which is what I am referring to. The fallen angels at least worship noone now.

I say that Worship isn't caused by Agares taint, but that it is part of Agares' sphere. To say that Worship is inherently a bad thing is like saying that Hope (Agares's purpose), Peace (Camulos's purpose), Strength (Aeron's purpose), Foresight (Mammon's purpose), Rest (Mulcarn's purpose), Emotional Attachments (Ceridwen's purpose), Passion (Bhall's purpose), or Trust (Esus's purpose) are inherently evil.

Like all the evil angels' aspects it has been greatly corrupted by the fall and we must treat them very carefully, but abusus non tollit usum.


Note that Cassiel was not around until after the fall, and that his knowledge of The One is entirely second hand.

Firstly, like zup, I could never follow "The One".
The One? Give me a break. Too similar to the christian god.
One grand "divine plan", omnipotence, omniscience, etc. they're all concepts I detest. Whilst I don't recall the exact quote (nor can find it scouring the internet), a line from Dogma sums up my feelings on God's 'mysterious ways' and 'grand plan':

"What was wrong with my plans?"

I consider myself to be a believer (or unbeliever) in dumb luck, coincidence, chance and so forth. In a way, "The One" is a bit like how I do see a possible God. One who created, and then shut off all links to the world he created and let it get on with itself (much like a child's science experiment, which after grading by a teacher, is placed aside and forgotten). In that way, if "The One" does lack a grand plan, doesn't intend to re-enter creation (as Cassiel otherwise implies) and intends to let what happens 'happen', then in his own way he is both the God I would believe in yet simultaneously not believe in. Almost like believing in his existence but not placing any faith in him, since he's there and not there at the same time.

Going over the Fall From Heaven Wiki (which sadly does have some empty areas with little-to-no information on some of the Gods), I find myself siding with Tali (http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/Tali) more than any other 'God'.
He is whimsical, carefree, adventurous, fun-loving, seemingly chaotic trickster God.
People often think of his as chaotic, but that is not the case. You can always count on him to be irresponsible.
Despite the first quote almost sounding like the description you'd find in a dating advert, I think Tali most embodies my view on existence (and certainly how I would see existence within Erebus). It is chaotic, with seemingly no path or destination. When chance opens up a path or destination, it is as quick to close it off; whether you have only just seen it, been walking it for years or have nearly reached it.

None of his followers have the patience to create an organized religion or devote temples to him
This to me is the ideal religion. With one's own life being so short in the grand scheme of things (and undoubtedly shorter in Erebus), why devote it to the praise and worship of a god? For a place in their heaven, hell or vault? I'm not one to believe in such assurances of an everlasting eternity. My focus would be on the present. Whether I'd truly "believe" in Tali is questionable, I'd be more likely to refer to him as "luck" and curse and praise his name (or luck) depending on whether it swings in my favour or not.

Of course, my narrow view on life being a short-term thing may well lead me to fall into Mammon's hell, whether intentionally or unintentionally (and from the sounds of things, he would be happy for me to be an unintentional follower). Whilst the tale of his hell makes for a good story, I heavily doubt I would wish to spend my eternity in there (good thing I don't believe in eternity, right? :lol:).

I'd say all of the above stems from my own philosophy and if I were to role-play the idea that I do not know for sure that the God's have their own eternal heavens/hells/vaults for their followers. If I were to be told beforehand with an assured guarantee that following X God would lead to Y eternity, I'm sure my faith would be much easier to swing. After all, I would see a purpose in devoting my time on Erebus to the praise of a God if the end reward was a place in their lovely heaven (raising the question of whether I would end up with Mammon, as noted by others here - following the God for the reward, rather than true belief).

From an RP perspective, I most certainly see myself following Tali more than any other God, and if I were to be slung into Erebus, I think he is the God that would earn my favour (and disfavour).

From a bit of a metagaming perspective:
- I find myself sympathetic to Mulcarn, one who is necessary yet unappreciated for his necessities and seen as cruel (like the needle to a cure - the needle hurts yet the pain from it is necessary in order to receive the good, and so the needle shouldn't be hated). Whilst I don't think I could truly follow him, in his own way he is a sympathetic villain and I could see myself swayed to his side.
- Danalin seems the most caring of all the Gods. One with such great care for his people that their fall caused him great sorrow, leading to a lengthy/eternal sleep. A God that shows that much emotional attachment and care for his followers would be more than capable of earning my favour. Almost like a loving Grandfather figure.
- In a similar way, I think I could be swayed by Sirona too, who innate well-meaning and kindness would draw my favour. The wiki quip: "Most of the gods see Sirona as a sweet little sister, whose opinion doesn't really matter" does seem to also fit how I would see her as well however. She exercises mercy, forgiveness and redemption to such a great extent that it's both a virtue and a weakness.
- Kilmorph too seems a caring and compassionate God, though her religion is far from flawless. Nonetheless, she seems like a God who has a heart, and whilst is reluctant to intervene, is willing to when she sees those who she cherishes in deep suffering (evident by the Mithril Golem for example).

Over-all, I definitely see myself as a follower of Talin, if one could even follow a God of his nature (as noted, his believers simply lack the patience to create a true religion about him - which is probably for the best), but being a person who admires compassion and caring, I do feel I could grow an attachment to Danalin, Sirona and Kilmorph were I to feel that they cared for me, and would likewise return their caring for me with faith/devotion.

I find it quite odd that you would consider both Tali and Kilmorph, considering how they hate each other. Fundamentally Kilmorph is the goddess of responsibility, and Tali is the god of responsibility. They both be neutral, but the enmity between them is as large as that between many good and evil gods.

Tali does have a bit of a religion, but it is a very individualistic one and the shrines are all found in very hard to reach places like the edges of the worlds tallest cliffs. His followers do have the patience and determination to do stuff that doesn't matter at all except that it is cool, but never actual work.



Sirona, not Danalin, is by far the most caring of the gods. She is the embodiment of caring, kindness, wisdom, and altruism. She is definitely more caring that Danalin, but Danalin does come in number two. Danalin's essence is serenity, tranquility, wisdom gained though a long lifetime of experience and contemplation (no epiphanies), and the love between very old friends. (I think the god who most exemplifies emotional attachments is Ceridwen, but she is mostly about the unhealthy attachments and dysfunctional relationships.) Danalin would be very caring towards those who have followed them for a long time, but you'd probably have to be devoted to him for a very long time before he warms up to you, whereas Sirona would be caring towards even her sworn enemies. Sirona and Danalin were very close friends and allies. Oddly enough, he was also a close friend of Tali, even though their spheres have very little in common. Of course, right now Danalin is asleep and his serinity has been traded for madness.




People don't go to Mammon's hell for just being short sighted and not thinking of consequences, but for being greedy and seeking to profit at the expense of others. Mammon's follwers think very much of consequence, but only of the consequences they they themselves would face in this life. Ignoring consequences altogether and just living in the moment is more of a Tali thing.

Kael says that Bhall is passionate chaos represented when a mob sets fire to a suspected witch's house, Camulos is the pointless chaos represented when arsonists pick random targets just to watch the innocents' house burn, and Tali is the chaos without malice represented when a bunch of guys decide one night to paint a random house red, but get distracted and before they are halfway done they start instead painting each other, the nearby farm animals, and a flock of geese, and then once they realize that the geese can't fly since they are drenched in paint they regret it and stay up all night taking care of the birds, until they get hungry and decide to kill, cook, and eat one of them, and then start playing with the feathers, and then wander back around sunrise laughing at each other and completely covered in paint and feathers. Tali has been described as the god of drunks and frat boys. I also tend to think that he is the patron god of Family Guy and Monty Python, and that the hymns his followers sing to him are a lot like "Bird's the Word"




I probably would follow The One if I knew of him but also revere a few other gods, whom I might worship if I didn't know of the one. The top choices for me are definitely Lugus, Sirona, and Danalin, but I'm not quite sure in what order. These three all get a long very well with each other, so I don't think I'd really have to choose just one. I too would be very sympathetic to Mulcarn, and see a fair amount of myself in him (although that part of me may really be closer to Danalin). In fact, I'd probably even be sympathetic to Agares--not in a way to make me follow him, but so that (like Sirona) I'd believe we should try to redeem instead of destroy him. I tend to think that The One actually intended for all the gods to have the freedom of purpose that Agares sought, but knew that it could not exist while their souls were dominated by one precept, and sought to take away the power of creation so they would give up their spheres and gain true free will. As such I tend to have respect for Nemed and to consider all the gods to be rather hypocritical.

Tali does have a bit of a religion, but it is a very individualistic one and the shrines are all found in very hard to reach places like the edges of the worlds tallest cliffs. His followers to have the patience and determination to do stuff that doesn't matter at all except that it is cool.

...I can't help now but picture someone carrying an ironing board up a mountain and getting their chum to take a pic (...perhaps a Discworld-esque Imp-with paintbrush-in-a-box camera) whilst he has his fingers in a 'rock' motif, and calling out "Extreme!!!!"


Seriously, wouldn't Tali have a major following amongst sailors (and Kuriotate Airship pilots)?

An ironing board? That seems pretty random. Of course, since we're talking about followers of Tali that means it makes perfect sense. I can see carrying ironing boards to the top of mountains being a time honored tradition among Tali-worshipers. Of course, to them time honored probably means it started within the last two weeks and will be considered much too boring, mundane, and legalistic to continue for more than a few more days. The tradition might be able to last a little longer if they use the board to surf down the slope.

I tend to think that the traditional benediction in Tali's religion is "Duuude...that's AWESOME!!!"

Extreme Ironing: - "the latest danger sport that combines the thrills of an extreme outdoor activity with the satisfaction of a well-pressed shirt."

wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ironing)

Very interesting.


I still think Tali's followers could get board of it eventually and move on to playing the Cello while hang gliding.




Yes, Tali does have a following among sailors, and other adventurers.

I find it quite odd that you would consider both Tali and Kilmorph, considering how they hate each other. Fundamentally Kilmorph is the goddess of responsibility, and Tali is the god of responsibility. They both be neutral, but the enmity between them is as large as that between many good and evil gods.
Yeah, but my following of Kilmorph would be based less on her being responsible and more on her emotion and caring for her followers. I guess I kind of want a God who'll say "You see that cliff? You see that other cliff? I bet you can't backflip from one to the other" and then after landing very painfully, have a caring God who'll say "You shouldn't be so silly. Here, let me patch you up". Of course, if I had to choose, Tali would definitely come first, but a caring God would be nice too. I suppose it's fittingly irresponsible that a follower of an irresponsible God would want a responsible God to pick up the pieces afterwards...but I do get the feeling Kilmorph wouldn't be too partial to picking up the pieces though :lol: But (an awake) Danalin might be willing to, being friends with Tali 'n all... and Sirona seems the type to care for all, even the irresponsible fool who gets himself into trouble.

Sirona, not Danalin, is by far the most caring of the gods. She is the embodiment of caring, kindness, wisdom, and altruism. She is definitely more caring that Danalin, but Danalin does come in number two. Danalin's essence is serenity, tranquility, wisdom gained though a long lifetime of experience and contemplation (no epiphanies), and the love between very old friends. Danalin would be very caring towards those who have followed them for a long time, but you'd probably have to be devoted to him for a very long time before he warms up to you, whereas Sirona would be caring towards even her sworn enemies. Sirona and Danalin were very close friends and allies.
Although Sirona may be the most caring (and the embodiment of caring), I feel more closeness to Danalin simply for how deep his caring went (to cause such great depression that he'd fall into dreams of madness). You're right, you probably would have to be a devotee from the beginning rather than him caring for you from the beginning for him to build such an attachment, but I'd like to think maybe if you were born in his lands he'd have an innate caring from you before you even reach an age where you can even become devoted to a God. As I said, he strikes me as a bit of a Grandfather figure. He may think every other kid out there is a little brat, but one of his descendants, he'd see as perfect and adorable in every way.

Tali does have a bit of a religion, but it is a very individualistic one and the shrines are all found in very hard to reach places like the edges of the worlds tallest cliffs. His followers do have the patience and determination to do stuff that doesn't matter at all except that it is cool, but never actual work.
Tali is the chaos without malice represented when a bunch of guys decide one night to paint a random house red, but get distracted and before they are halfway done they start instead painting each other, the nearby farm animals, and a flock of geese, and then once they realize that the geese can't fly since they are drenched in paint they regret it and stay up all night taking care of the birds, until they get hungry and decide to kill, cook, and eat one of them, and then start playing with the feathers, and then wander back around sunrise laughing at each other and completely covered in paint and feathers. Tali has been described as the god of drunks and frat boys. I also tend to think that he is the patron god of Family Guy and Monty Python, and that the hymns his followers sing to him are a lot like "Bird's the Word".
...I can't help now but picture someone carrying an ironing board up a mountain and getting their chum to take a pic (...perhaps a Discworld-esque Imp-with paintbrush-in-a-box camera) whilst he has his fingers in a 'rock' motif, and calling out "Extreme!!!!"
An ironing board? That seems pretty random. Of course, since we're talking about followers of Tali that means it makes perfect sense. I can see carrying ironing boards to the top of mountains being a time honored tradition among Tali-worshipers. Of course, to them time honored probably means it started within the last two weeks and will be considered much too boring, mundane, and legalistic to continue for more than a few more days. The tradition might be able to last a little longer if they use the board to surf down the slope.

I tend to think that the traditional benediction in Tali's religion is "Duuude...that's AWESOME!!!"
Yeah, that's pretty much why I'd follow Tali... Over in one of the other threads I saw myself as a Harlequin... If I was in Erebus, I could easily see myself with a pointy-bell-hat and purple and yellow checkered trousers running up a cliff with an ironing board yelling "surfs up dudes!". In fact, a God who sees that as worship is ideal by me :)

Also, since I've got my mind on Tali, I'd love to see a small in-game sect devoted to him. He's apparently the patron of the Hippus, and the Balseraphs and Lanun would be partial to him. I could see a minor religion of crazies forming, although they'd have much in common with the OO... only they wouldn't be clinically mad, they'd just be a bit drunk or in the mood for a laugh.

Could be an in-game event near the coasts - "You come across a couple of idiots/Tali devotees trying to backflip from one cliff to another: Stop them! They could hurt themselves! Let them do it then heal their wounds. Watch and laugh" and a "Join in!" option for the Balseraphs, Hippus and Lanun .... Now I'm actually tempted to post that in the "Ideas needed: Common Events (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=262009)" thread now too :lol:

Now im stuck between Bhall and Tali....

I think i'll be a Tali follower who really likes fire for some reason =D

Oghma definitely... knowledge is like drugs to me

I would follow Agares. If only a small sacrifice gains great rewards, I could do it. I probably couldn't kill, but if he needed my blood, I got plenty. Might feel a little light-headed afterwards, though. :p

If not Agares, then Oghma. If following Oghma gave me knowledge of magic, I'd eat up every arcane tome I could get my hands on. I'm an information whore.