http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gifWhile the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php) BEFORE playing!


Settings:

Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Noble
Starting Era: Ancient
Map Size: Standard
Map Type: Inland Sea
Speed: Quick
Required: OCC and Permanent Alliances Checked
Civ: Any
Opponents: Any
Version: 1.74.002, 2.13.002 or 3.13.001
Date: 26th March to 10th April 2008
Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

For a domination victory you need like 60% of the land area. How can you get that on a standard size map with only one city?

For a domination victory you need like 60% of the land area. How can you get that on a standard size map with only one city?

With a permanent alliance.

also with Vassalage?

also with Vassalage?

I don't believe that's possible. Only 50% of a vassals territory counts towards domination (I believe), so your OCC would have to contain a lot of tiles and your vassal would have to be huge!

Plus, would a vassal who was that big still be a vassal?

Hmm, sounds fun. Obviously we need to get a PA for this one. Could be a tricky one, since the PA target can't be #1 in power.

I'm definitely giving this one a go, OCC on quick speed should play really fast.
From my missing civs for V/W QM, Ramesses (Spi/Ind) seems to be the better choice. Alex (philo) would be a 2nd choice. If those don't work maybe I'll go for Gandhi (spi/ind), but I already have him checked.

Can someone explain Permanent Alliances? Is this available in Vanilla? When can you get one? How do you get one? How do you keep one?

Can someone explain Permanent Alliances? Is this available in Vanilla? When can you get one? How do you get one? How do you keep one?

WastinTime wrote an excellent strategy article titled "Permanent Alliance Guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3853417#post3853417)" regarding the topic and OCC games.

this sounds like an interesting challenge, not going to be easy though even at noble

That is a well written article.. thanks :goodjob:

Should the must be checked line include PA's since it seems impossible to get this without one?

Also, Vassals can break from their master, but not capitulates if i remember correctly from BOTM3 and other times. Seems an interesting stratagy may be to get an early capitulate, and gift him loads of settlers and troops and tech. Or as another alternative, capitulate the all opponents but one and gift settlers. It may be somewhat impossible to get them back to fighting status, or even to submit with only 1 city.

Should the must be checked line include PA's since it seems impossible to get this without one?

Very good point. I had that happen to me before. :blush:

Interesting idea. Inland sea is quite a (relatively) big map so this will be a challange.

You can't gift settlers in OCC (as you can't build them). If that is true about being unable to break capitulation, that might be one way to help winning, having vassals and PA.

While vassals are possible in OCC (I actually got one back in the culture OCC gauntlet), I am almost possitive that it will be easier to just go the PA route.

I am almost possitive that it will be easier to just go the PA route.

I'll be trying to get a vassal before a PA, use the vassalising war to get the shared military bonus needed for the PA.

Good call. In the last Major, I had mentioned that we (me and my ally) vassalized someone, but it didn't last. Certainly the OCC changes some dynamics.

I know very little about vassals or capitulation. Can someone give a quick overview of the difference and how you talk them into it? I can't see why you'd bother with a PA if you can get them to stick with you all game from the start with capitulation.

I know very little about vassals or capitulation. Can someone give a quick overview of the difference and how you talk them into it? I can't see why you'd bother with a PA if you can get them to stick with you all game from the start with capitulation.
Capitulation is just vassalizing someone in the course of war, where you hurt them so badly as you can demand capitulation. In this case they'll be your vassals until they get enough land to break free.

If a civ is weak, they can offer to become your vassals if they are friendly enough with you, but in this case they can break free anytime they want. Watch out if they are at war with someone (a typical reason to seek patronage), then if you agree to become their master, you'll automatically be at war as well.

In other words, if a civ is large enough, you'll get a real hard time to vassalize them. And since only 50% of their land counts toward dom. limit, I'm afraid it is not possible to get Dom with vassals only.

I was looking for a guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193747) myself to see if it is possible for capitulated states to break free. It appears that they can if they get 50% of your land and territory, so it is possibly a risky strategy. I have played a OCC conquest game where I had a vassal who never broke away.

Does breaking away have anything to do with how freindly you are with them? I suppose I'll read the guide.

Does breaking away have anything to do with how freindly you are with them?
I'm afraid it only has to do with how strong they are. Once they feel strong enough, they'll break free no matter how friendly they are with you.

I see, thanks. I read the guide. Well, most of it. Any chance that all applies to Warlords and there is a whole new system in BTS?

Any chance that all applies to Warlords and there is a whole new system in BTS?
I have not noticed any significant differences between BtS and Warlords so far.

One thing I love about Vassals is that you can demand all their resources, as refusal means they declare war. Back in the Time gauntlet (Major, 21?) I had vassalized Cyrus and I treated him like dirt. I didn't help him with famine, I interrogated spies caught in my cities, etc. He eventually had enough and refused, declaring war. This was a masterstroke, because I was approaching the Dom limit.

That's not going to be useful in a one city challenge.

I'll probably give this one a miss, seems a bit too dependent upon your ally being competent enough to get a domination win.

I'll probably try the major though, tha's going to be tough.

I'll give this one a try, new for me so I may learn something.
Just started a BTS game as Alexander, random opponents and I encountered Julius Caesar first. Not a bad ally, let's keep him in mind. Next Gandhi (you are so screwed lol) and Mansa Musa (good tech ally). But then: Gilgamesh - Protective/Creative, oh yeah there's my ally right there. :D
Quit right after because I don't have time right now, but looks like I'm picking Gilgamesh for my ally. I might stumble upon Monty/Shaka/Isabella/Catherine next though.
I'm continuing this one later.

I'm interested in which leaders people think are best for this. I always thought Philosophical the best trait for OCC but in the OCC conquest Many Leaders Game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252517) the top leaders were Elizabeth, Wang and Peter showing Financial can be really useful as well.

Personally, I'm going Ramesses as I need him for EQM ;)

I think the choice of the ally also matters. I've started a warlords game (Alex,philo), where I'm kinda dating a russian redhead. ;) I think she'll do wonders when we marry and I give her MT so she can unleash her cossacks on the other unsuspecting AI. :D

I have to say Gilgamesh isn't very cooperative yet. +5/-0 relations with him and he doesn't want war or cancel trade with anyone, whereas Mansa Musa (+1/-0) for example is willing to war with 3 other civs (don't know how much he wants for it though, but at least it's not redded out). Gilgamesh seems to need more diplomatic input to be a good ally.

Would it be illegal to play OCC with no city razing turned on?

Would it be illegal to play OCC with no city razing turned on?

'No City Razing' is optional for HOF games. It is your choice on whether you wish to use it. You can find the HOF rules on this page (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php).

Note, you also need to be using the HOF mod, which has different versions depending on what expansion you are playing. (Vanilla (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=mod#download), Warlords (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=mod#warlords_download), and BTS (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=mod#bts_download)).

Would it be illegal to play OCC with no city razing turned on?

I think it still destroys cities you take, but maybe I just assumed that.

EDIT: No, it doesn't destroy them. That really ruins the whole gauntlet.
I was almost sure they would be destroyed. Maybe this is new behavior in BTS?

@Moderator: we need a ruling on that. My game is going great! But I just captured a city. Illegal? If it is legal, then I won't bother playing this gauntlet. It's just a normal domination game. Sad I have to start over though.

With both OCC checked and No City Razing you take control of a city? Apparently the code for NCR takes precedence over OCC.

With both OCC checked and No City Razing you take control of a city? Apparently the code for NCR takes precedence over OCC.

Yea, funny no one figured that out in previous OCC gauntlets. That's what makes me think it's BTS only that does this. I did No Razing so my PA partner would keep everything. Didn't expect to get a 2nd city.

Yea, funny no one figured that out in previous OCC gauntlets. That's what makes me think it's BTS only that does this. I did No Razing so my PA partner would keep everything. Didn't expect to get a 2nd city.

Then we can't allow No City Razing, as that obsoletes OCC.

k, Just to be sure I double checked that I cannot build settlers and I did build the Oxford with only 1 city, so I'm definitely on OCC...And I now have 2 cities.

:mad: I didn't even use mapfinder on that game. I had Corn, cow, Stone, Silver, gold, gold, wine, wine, 12 forests and a big river in the BFC. :(

:mad: I didn't even use mapfinder on that game. I had Corn, cow, Stone, Silver, gold, gold, wine, wine, 12 forests and a big river in the BFC. :(

Wow...eight resources out of 20 tiles, assuming you didn't settle on one...that is sweet.:eek:

:mad: I didn't even use mapfinder on that game. I had Corn, cow, Stone, Silver, gold, gold, wine, wine, 12 forests and a big river in the BFC. :(

I need to see a screenshot of all that goodness!

Bad luck about no city razing :(

Not sure what has gone wrong with my game. I reached MT and started a DefPact with Cathy t97. Another with Mansa 3 turns later. Until T127 I was still getting "we haven't shared DP long enough" from both of them, and at friendly with both.

Then Cathy declares on Asoka, I follow suit, bring Mansa to the fun. At T151 still getting the same red message. How many turns on DP necessary for PA? I thought it was 20? :confused:

I thought it was 40 turns at quick speed but could be wrong. Not sure of the effect of having 2 PAs either.

I think it's 40 also (on any speed, a bug I think).

Remember your def pact is cancelled if your buddy delares war.

Not sure of the effect of having 2 PAs either.

Is that even possible?

My bad, now I re-read WastinTime' excellent thread on the subject and found out it is 40 turns. But doesn't the turns under DP and under shared wars add to each other?

My bad, now I re-read WastinTime' excellent thread on the subject and found out it is 40 turns. But doesn't the turns under DP and under shared wars add to each other?

I want to say yes, but I don't really know. I almost always go with the D.Pact. I'm finding that there are a lot of things I think I know which are not true in BTS. Almost like starting over. For example, did you know that if you demand something from the AI, they force you into a peace treaty for 10 turns. (10 turns on quick too...another bug that doesn't scale with game speed.) There are also random events that force peace, and so does the Ap. Palace. Very hard to keep a war going.

My entire strategy for this gauntlet was destroyed by this latest surprise:
I thought I could give a musketman to the french and they'd get a musketeer. No dice.

My entire strategy for this gauntlet was destroyed by this latest surprise:
I thought I could give a musketman to the french and they'd get a musketeer. No dice.

Funny :crazyeye:
Giving a musketeer would automatically transform it, but hte other way around... It probably is because he did not get enough cheese in your homeland while a young boy :lol:

Anyway nice try. I wish I would have thought of it, even if I feel better knowing it does not work. And by the way I wonder if BtS is the better option for this gauntlet... (I chose it anyway, need to play it more).

Well, I continued my game. After a while my target ally went back to peace. I resumed our DP and after a while the PA was available. What I learned (too late), shared wars and DP turns don't add, but 2+ DP periods do add.
However, I later noticed I also had set "no city razing". Even if I don't capture any city I suppose my game won't qualify. So I might start a new one.

Funny :crazyeye:
Giving a musketeer would automatically transform it, but hte other way around...

Not sure I understood you.

I actually tried to simplify what really happened. I actually was france and gifted a musketeer to Zara. I thought it would turn in to his UU, the Oromo Warrior, but it was still a musketeer.

Not sure I understood you.

I actually tried to simplify what really happened. I actually was france and gifted a musketeer to Zara. I thought it would turn in to his UU, the Oromo Warrior, but it was still a musketeer.

That's even weirder than I thought then... I would have sweared that when gifting a UU, it would be transformed into the non-UU version. Hmmm, this opens potential funny tactics then :)

it does indeed. Imagine gifting Prets or Berserkers to your ally. They would probably be obsoleted by then, but still. What about gifting Panzers, Cossacks or Janissaries?

Then we can't allow No City Razing, as that obsoletes OCC. Well, I'm playing Warlords with PA/OCC and no-city-razing checked and found out this is a BTS bug. I got my PA and have been capturing and razing cities left and right.

172702

However, I got the following warning in the HoF screen. :confused: Should I ignore it?

172701

yes you always get it once you have signed your PA, I have never had a problem with this happening and my game being accepted

Well, I continued my game. After a while my target ally went back to peace. I resumed our DP and after a while the PA was available. What I learned (too late), shared wars and DP turns don't add, but 2+ DP periods do add.
However, I later noticed I also had set "no city razing". Even if I don't capture any city I suppose my game won't qualify. So I might start a new one.

I'm pretty sure DP-turns and Shared War stack. In my current game I got my PA with Genghis Kahn 5-6 turns after we signed a DP. I don't know how many turns of war we shared before that but it seems to have cut down the time to PA quite a bit. Note: I'm on :bts:.

Will the AI's sign a DP and PA if there is an active war or do you need to be at peace with everyone?

Not quite sure if this was answered earlier in the thread, but I want to clarify...

Let's say that after signing the PA with your ally, you start a war to help pursue your domination victory. If you capture a city, do you have the option of gifting it to your ally (since you're on the same team) or is it automatically razed (a la OCC)?

And does checking "no city razing" change anything if you are to capture a city after signing the PA?

Even after signing the PA, if you capture a city it is razed.

Checking "no city razing" in BtS apparently will let you capture cities (which is surely a bug) regardless of the PA state of play.

Just submitted a 1978AD win in this with plenty of mistakes, good for 2nd (or last) place. Who has the #1 date as I'll probably give this another go.

Had a PA with Vicky, capitulated Mehmed and Joao. Quick speed and actually getting Vicky to do anything in the war efforts were the main issue and not building the AP, which kept stopping my wars mid effort.

Even after signing the PA, if you capture a city it is razed.

Checking "no city razing" in BtS apparently will let you capture cities (which is surely a bug) regardless of the PA state of play.

Just submitted a 1978AD win in this with plenty of mistakes, good for 2nd (or last) place. Who has the #1 date as I'll probably give this another go.

Had a PA with Vicky, capitulated Mehmed and Joao. Quick speed and actually getting Vicky to do anything in the war efforts were the main issue and not building the AP, which kept stopping my wars mid effort.

Get a good warmonger partner. I teamed up with Genghis Khan, and he was an amazing PA partner. He was really easy to bribe into wars earlier in the game, and later on he went apsolutely crazy and he (we) eliminated 4/5 civs in the modern era. We had the 'Mids so he was in Police State (his fav. civic btw) spamming units non-stop and just constantly taking cities. He basically marched 2 armies, one in each direction around the inland sea going from city to city taking it, and moving on.

I found it was better to gift him troops (early in the PA) to get him to go capture stuff. The bigger his stack got the more faster he would move from city to city. Even with the PA I think he only counted his own troops as garrissoning his cities, so if he had tons to leave behind he'd start moving on the next city ASAP as opposed to waiting a few turns while he built what he considered a good garrisson to leave in the city before marching on.

Just to be clear, No City Razing: Unchecked for BTS, but...

Are you going to allow "No city razing" for vanilla/Warlords assuming it auto-razes w/OCC?

I don't really care if you want to allow that, but I want to point out that it's a huge advantage to check this. My PA partner was razing almost everything. So it would be more fair if you didn't allow it.

Uhmm, I finally finished my game 2 minutes ago. It took me 14h RL. Probably I'll get last spot as date was 2012AD. In early 1900's when I was 1 turn from victory one of my vassals broke free. :mad:
@WastinTime: I appreciated immensely your suggestion (in the gauntlet ideas thread, wasn't it?) for this gauntlet setup, but I'd be very frustrated if my game gets disq'd for no city razing. After all, there has been several gauntlets where one version of the game (V,W,BTS) leads to better results than others. Why this one should be different?
Also, you could always select an ally less inclined to raze cities.
All in all, one of the games I've enjoyed most so far.:goodjob:

@Conquistador: Thanks, I used to play something similar in Alpha Centauri just for fun to handicap myself. Although I restricted myself even more and could not attack at all. Only thru the partner.

I'm ok either way if they allow No Razing. I just want to know if it's allowed, cus I'll try again if it is. Should be able to cut off a couple hundred years.

Are there certain leaders less inclined to raze? If so, where do you get that info?

iRazeCityProb: Determines the probability that a conquered city is razed - is only included in last check, other values e.g. holy city, active world wonder or number of nearby cities can override this. From Ori's useful leader info spreadsheets (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3359), this can be between 75 (Genghis) and 0. For bad guys like Monty, Shaka, Ragnar, etc. it is 50.

I'm going to allow using 'No City Razing' on the condition that the human player controls his/her OCC only. The human player may never hold another city. If they do, the submission is automatically removed from the gauntlet.

I believe this is fair, though dangerous for BTS players.

So Catherine's iRazeCityProb is 0. Wouldn't that mean never razes? Well, she was my partner and smoked a lot of cities. I'm lost.

Cathy did keep all of the last dozen or so cities. So something triggered her to keep them, where earlier she didn't keep any. I wonder if it's something like State Property civic that does that?

it must be ignoring cost of keeping it, so if keeping the city will crash their economy they won't but after SP when they can afford to they won't raze it

My first two trys finished in exactly the same number of turns...one with BTS one on Vanilla.

I played my last run with "No Razing" on vanilla. I finished more than 200 years earlier. Of course part of that is my strategy improves with each run.

Finally got a completed game. I kept having trouble either getting the PA or the tech pace among the AI's was keeping pace and the game became a modern age slugfest. But each experience taught me something new as I have not played either an OCC or a PA game before.

I played [Warlords with the no city raze option off] as Liz and reached MT on turn 94, getting my DP with Cathy. 40 turns later got the PA and we are off to dominate the world. We have the tech lead and only Asoka is even close to us in techs and he is friendly to us and not on good terms with the others.

After wiping out Mehmed and nearly all of Shaka & Izzy cities, Izzy became a vassal to Asoka. Asoka had never been to war with Izzy, did not have a good relationship and was pleased with us (both Cathy and Liz). At the time Izzy was actually in a seperate war with Monty. It was strange that Asoka would accept them as a vassal. That put was us in a tank vrs tank battle with Asoka, while we hadn't seen anything stronger than a rifle from Shaka, Monty, Mehmed or Lizzy. This easily added 15 to 20 turn to the game.

I finished in 1980AD, turn 260 or in other terms 126 turns after getting the PA. I wish we could control the units once the PA is signed. This game should have been won in about 60 turns after the PA but the AI sat on so many units in cities nowhere close to the front.

It was strange that Asoka would accept them as a vassal.

Don't they say you're in trouble when you start answering yourself. But I found a good article on the Vassal System (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193747) in the War Academy. Apparently this type of action was very common prior to the 2.08 path.

*Prior to the v2.08 patch there was a tendency by the AI that when losing a war with the player, the AI would align itself with a Player-“friendly” Civ by becoming a Vassal and then drag a Civ, which the player may have been closely “allied” with, into war against the player. The v2.08 patch did not create some magic rule saying this can no longer happen just that the decision would be more thoughtfully evaluated by the AI. A good quick, rule of thumb is that one of the factors the AI is going to judge this decision by is: is your military power equal to, less than or significantly greater then, his and his new Vassal's military power. If your "Ally" thinks he could otherwise take you on and come out the better he is going to do it (and let's be blunt, so would you). Your "Ally" basically weights the decision like this: "Yeah, I'm friendly with the player, but is this too good an opportunity to pass up?"

That is exactly what happened in my game. I could have taken them as a vassal myself but wanted the full land value, not the half tile count of a vassal. Even with the PA signed the comparison for military power must have been made against me as a single civ not as the combined team.

I had another go at it, this time with no city razing unchecked. This slowed me a bit, but I had a very nice ally (Roos), tanks in 1700AD. In 1916AD I was at war with last non-vassal and 6 tiles away from Dom. However I did not pay close attention and 3 cities were conquered in the last turn, giving me a domination and a conquest win in the same turn - but conquest took precedence! :mad: :blush: :eek:

Oh well, a 1918 finish would be nice enough for me, but I'm moving on to other games, I had enough fun with this gauntlet anyway.

Can someone give me a rundown on tech paths, wonder builds and what not? There are a dozen things to beeline for or to build a.s.a.p. and that it's a little overwhelming. No idea which order to do everything.
I'm always much later than you guys (getting the PA around turn 190) and 1 game in which I actually managed the PA, the AI wasn't far enough behind in tech to be easily run over (and letting the AI do ALL the fighting for me is perhaps not a good idea).
So far my general strategy was settling all specialists (1 academy though) and beelining CS, MT, Facism/Communism and Biology as the most important techs. This time I'm thinking of bulbing some techs first and using war instead of a defensive pact to start a PA (Has to be 40 turns straight right? Hope I can manage that). And then there's also that cursed AP that someone always builds and prevents me from waging a war long enough because they're voting for peace.
So any tips for me?
My choice of Civ is Russia (Peter).

Edit: And to make it worse, I just missed the Oracle-CS slingshot by 1 turn (680 BC). :(

Your path looks good in general. On OCC you should always beeline Edu for Oxford (writ-alpha-CS-edu). I would advise against researching off the beeline except for what you must have, like mon for HR or music if you need a DP. From there, you should either go to Nat and use Lib for MT if you will need a DP for the PA or go straight to Comm and use Lib for Sci Meth or Comm, depending on which great persons (if any) you have ready to bulb.

Popping a GS asap for an academy is essential. If you have a 2nd GS early enough you can use him on education, otherwise save for sci meth. Settle all prophets for the hammers.

Oracle should be for CS or maybe edu (if it lasts that long). I don't think you need any other wonders - IMO the hammers are better used elsewhere anyway.

You need 40 total turns of mutual war for the PA. They don't need to be consecutive though. And yes, that's better than a DP - it's faster than teching to MT and waiting 40 turns and you've already started on your conquest.

Ok, thanks FiveAces. Yes Education is also important. I'll probably start a new game and try out the W-A-CS-E path. And depending on the map any other techs I need.
As far as wonders are concerned, I was building Ox, Nat.Epic, Nat.Park and GT as national wonders and when possible Oracle and Pyramids as world wonders. Not much else, lots of science buildings though.
I'll have another go at it soon.

Sorry, I was referring to mainly to WW, not NW. The NW's are useful when you can squeeze them in. I don't think Pyramids is worth the hammers on OCC though - you won't have many specialists early, esp w/out GL - by the time you get to NP you should also be able to run Rep the old fashioned way? Skip them both and build military would be my recommendation.

OK. I'm a warmonger at heart, but was intrigued at the idea of OCC with the AI doing the warring. So I set up a game with several peacenicks plus napoleon and ragnar. I figure with two high unit builders 1 will not be 1st in power and I can get a DP/PA with the one that is not. I set religions to "choose religions", so i will get christianity with COL and then spread it to napolean (his favorite religion). I also decide to go for pyramids to get representation early (napolean's favorite civic), in an effort to get the "you have chosed your civics wisely" from him, while no one else would be able to (not having representation).

Apparently I have a lot to lean about dipomacy. First of all, I never got a single +1 or anything for "you have chosen your civics wisely" even after researching constitution and gifting it, and getting him to switch to it, still nothing. So here's my question, What does it take to get a "you have chosen your civics wisely" bonus?

Second diplo question. on setup, I did check the PA checkbox, and confirmed in the settings that PA was checked. before i get military tradition, ragnar asks me to go to war against gandhi. Great, war turns reduce DP waiting turns, so I agree. Then I get mil tradition, and look for the DP (defensive pact) option with him......nothing, not even listed on the screen at all. I look at it with napolean, nothing, not even listed. I look at all civs, and it is not even listed on the screen where you discuss deals with them. can trade techs, yes, can convert yes, can adopt civis yes, can exchange resources yes, but no DP option. Is there some hidden requirement I am missing? Are you not allowed to be at war with anybody at all, in order to have the DP option or is there something else that makes it so that DPs are not an option.

I gave up at that point, because although i had both napoleon and ragnar at friendly, it was impossible to get a DP, (since the option was not even listed on the screen), let alone try for a PA.

What am I missing on these two aspects ("you have chosen your civics wisely" & getting DP as a option to trade with)???

Don't know about the Civics issue, but yes you need to be at peace with everyone if you want to get the DP option. An active DP is also cancelled when you enter war (regardless of who starts it).

You can't enter a DP while at war. About civics, are you sure both of you are running his favorite civic? If yes, maybe a few turns might be necessary for the bonus to show up. Otherwise it could be a bug.

Well, I confirmed that we both had representation, and sure enough - lesson learned after a few turns, there it was +1. This essentially makes my choice of Napoleon + pyramids completely ineffective since it makes zero difference until you research and give him constitution so he can adopt.

As for the DP issue, i made peace with everyone. Then DP was listed but only with some civs. I looked back at the diplomacy screen, and sure enough it was listed only with the civs that are at peace with everyone. Lesson learned: both civs must be at peace with everyone in order to make a DP.

At first though, this DP finding is slightly daunting since you probably want a agressive warmonger to be the PA who you feed tech and who then conquers the world, yet it is highly likely that right when you want him, he will be at war, and need coaxing to peace. Worse yet, if he is not at war and makes the DP, it is highly likely that he will break the DP before you get 40 turns.

Remedy #1. But with deeper reflection these initial downsides are likely easily remedied. If you are in DP and he goes to war, go to war too. This leads to a new diplomacy question:

QUESTION#1: Do you only get war buddy points if you are "asked" to go to war? Or do you still get them if you both just happen to be at war with the same civ coincidentally? If coincidental counts, then this contributes further to examining Remedy #2.

Remedy #2. If he is at when you get MT war, simply declare war on the same civ and get the war buddy bonus, which counts towards your PA turns. This leads to a new question

QUESTION #2: how do war buddy turns get counted? It seems like everyone says you need 40-50 turns. But then the question is how exactly is "turn" defined. For example if ragnar and I are both at war with gandhi and with asoka, then do I gain "war buddy turns" twice as fast as if we were at war with just gandhi? Or is it the same speed? If twice as fast, then you might get to PA much faster by skipping DP and simply getting him and you to declare war as much as you two can handle. Then make peace with some enemies and hone the attack on a few. Anyone have insight on this?

Sorry for more questions...but my curiousity is growing.

You get 1 turn of "war buddy" points for each turn you are in a shared war with another AI, doesn't matter if it is against 2 or more opponents or you were asked to join or not, still just counts as 1 turn (of 40).

Improved my time to 1950AD (good enough for 3rd) by using Genghis as my attack dog. Would have been able to get a much faster time but he had enough on his hands for nearly the entire early portion of the game until declaring on Hatty (I had to wait 30 turns I reckon). With only 3-4 turns remaining until we could PA up, he then vassalised her and it took me a few turns to realise and get him to attack someone else with me.

I also find it frustrating that they don't split their attacking forces up more. At one stage he had a stack of 45 cavalry, 20 infantry and 15 cannons attacking cities defended by 2-3 longbows one at a time. I ended up attacking cities myself down to one defender so his pillaging cavalry (that he would send out one by one) would take the cities.

Must admit it is a pretty fun gauntlet.

Need a judgement on this issue. This is a BTS game.

Ok I have not checked the no raze button so normally everything i take is razed and that was working fine had razed three cities in a war. Then something odd happened.

There is a civ between my PA partner and my civ and in the course of the war with that civ the PA partner lost a city to the intervening civ. In the course of breaking a path through to my partner i attacked this city and surprise when i beat down the last unit it did not raze but stayed as my city presumably since the dominant culture is still that of my PA partner. I was immediately able to gift the city to my PA partner and I did that.

So...
since I was momentarily in possession of the second city is the game invalid? Not sure if this is a bug or an intended ablity to allow you to assist your partner without destroying his cities. I saved the before and after gift for the record if you need to look at them.

And secondly if its not valid BEWARE if you are on BTS and recapture one of your partners cities as you will get possession of it without a raze option.

Thanks for the notification and we are looking into it. I'm at work, so can't access the HOF site (work blocks it, but not the forums). Have you already submitted this game? Also, as stated in the PM can you email us both the before and after save to hof.civfanatics@gmail.com?

I sent the copies of the files and no i havent submitted it. I stopped at the point where the issue occurred to report it first. I have played this set up numerous times but its the first time the situation cropped up. Usually because I make a point of allying the civ next door, but I tried a little different approach this time. :)

Not a big deal if its invalid - but it could happen in the other games so folks should be aware and i suppose if you went out of your way you could attempt to exploit it in some way.

Hmm. That's interesting. Since you left NCR unchecked, I'm guessing vanilla/WL is subject to the same problem - in vanilla once you make a PA you cannot be culture pressed by your partner beyond their BFC's - if they have say a third ring tile in your BFC with more culture than you, once you make the PA, ownership of it switches over to you automatically. It would be logical that whatever code governs this switch would also govern the "no culture to raise" requirement. That's just a guess though - I can't read the code.

You get 1 turn of "war buddy" points for each turn you are in a shared war with another AI, doesn't matter if it is against 2 or more opponents or you were asked to join or not, still just counts as 1 turn (of 40).

Improved my time to 1950AD (good enough for 3rd) by using Genghis as my attack dog. Would have been able to get a much faster time but he had enough on his hands for nearly the entire early portion of the game until declaring on Hatty (I had to wait 30 turns I reckon). With only 3-4 turns remaining until we could PA up, he then vassalised her and it took me a few turns to realise and get him to attack someone else with me.

I also find it frustrating that they don't split their attacking forces up more. At one stage he had a stack of 45 cavalry, 20 infantry and 15 cannons attacking cities defended by 2-3 longbows one at a time. I ended up attacking cities myself down to one defender so his pillaging cavalry (that he would send out one by one) would take the cities.

Must admit it is a pretty fun gauntlet.

thats one turn faster than my game, i guess i need to do it again if i want my third place back :D

I'm gonna quit this gauntlet, I've tried 6 times already and no succes. My current game is in the 1880's and I don't really have time to finish it. I can't keep my/our tech lead big enough and I should have selected my civs (and probably with max. opponents and an early war). My last game contained 3 protective civs, all nearest to me and my ally.
Looking forward to the next one.

Things I found helpful in BTS for this game. Probably lots of room for improvement but you should be able to win do reasonably well.


Max civs for the map size.
High sea level with tropical.
Ideal location will allow you to block the map in your section.
Avoid spiritual/protective opposition/and Mansa Musa types and you do not want an overload of aggressives that spam units and make your wars longer.
Pick your PA partner asap and never do anything that would annoy them.
Build only protective units early.
Build library asap then 2 sci folks til you pop a GP for academy.
Oracle slingshot to CS. Save any additional GP scientists for education.
Monarchy.
Then beeline to MT unless you get involved in a helpful war or need to tuck in feudalism in the mix for longbows to defer a greedy neighbour.
Gift anything you do not need to the target PA.
Post MT beeline to Comm consider Gunpowder if you need it for defense.
Pick a civ close by for your partner - this may cost you some squares initially but the warring is easier subsquently as you have internal lines.
When you get religions share with your target and always stay on their religion.
If they go to war - you go to war - always lock step with the target.
Be careful about giving them tech you do not want them too powerful and you dont want them giving it away before you PA.
Always direct their research and their targets.
You do not even need a tech lead to win. The key is to leverage your units so that yours are high xp builds.
Never lose a unit if you can avoid it since your output it is limited.
Your job is to soften the target and let the ai do the dirty work - at least until you have big raiders.

Forget about the GT until you have your PA since prior to that you do not want to go wandering about with your army anyways.
Important wonders Oracle, GT, National E, Oxford U, West Point (use 1st or 2nd general to leverage one unit to level 6) Pentagon, and the National Park if you find time for Biology or Ironworks if you need the hammers badly.
Save all your forests.

Direct your pet to destroy one soft neighbour civ. Use your troops for the hammer knowing the ai will drag along behind. Beat the city down and let them scoop it up. Once you have that one civ flattened and absorbed its territory vassalize all the rest (your land mass should be large enough to prevent vassals escaping). Tech up your capitulated vassals and roll on.

Thanks for the notification and we are looking into it. I'm at work, so can't access the HOF site (work blocks it, but not the forums). Have you already submitted this game? Also, as stated in the PM can you email us both the before and after save to hof.civfanatics@gmail.com?

Also I can now confirm this is not an isolated occurrence. I recaptured the city of Tver which you can see on the original maps i submitted and it also did not raze and was assigned to the OCC civ. You are able to gift it back immediately. So essentially the code does not permit you to raze the culturally defined cities of your PA partner.:high5:

@ Rain: thanks for posting that, I may try that when I have time after the gauntlet. My initial tech pace is good enough I suppose, at least up until CS (700BC or thereabouts). Liberalism 500AD I can also do now but I always have to wait to get MT for free (approx. 1000AD). Then it slows, not sure why exactly. No way I can manage tanks in 1700AD, more their historical date (early 20th century).
The PA I got around turn 145 in my last game which is decent enough I suppose. But somehow I can't keep my military up and tech fast at the same time. I might never really learn until I can view a good game turn by turn. :p
Oh yeah, my start locations are probably below average. Some starts I see from others, perhaps with the downloaded map generator (like that 2 gold, 2 gems 2 clams start earlier maybe), I use the HOF one. If I look at my latest city site, it only has cows and stone, but I settled mainly for the floodplains. Coal came later, and rice, pigs, dye, iron and 2 more cattle outside the BFC. Only 3 hills (no problem with settled GE's and GP's) but plenty of forests of which I preserved 7 for specialists with Nat.Park. Mountain range and my borders cut off the land which is nice.

145 is fine for a PA. The fastest one i saw mentioned was 134. I don't think that is your issue if thats the case. Perhaps you are underestimating the force of the compunding vassals. If you tech them up (capped ones) and get them helping in the war effort the pace really picks up. Its getting those first couple of civs taken care that takes time. Also once you get basic science items built there is really nothing else you need other than units. Even the pentagon is not necessarliy worth it if you dont really need xps badly. Every turn it takes to build is one less unit and you should be doing one a turn with overflow.

Out of curiousity who are you using for a leader?

Peter mostly, or Alex.

145 is fine for a PA. The fastest one i saw mentioned was 134.

I got a PA on turn 104, but that's because I go to Communism before MT.

I find its difficult to maintain the war turns and i am certain that there are occasions it takes more than 40 turns of combined DP and war to get a PA. (BTS) That being said the pure pact is the better way if you can do it.

Was your game was on vanilla?

Re the leaders Alex is an interesting try though I havent used him. Peter was my partner in my best result.

Also I can now confirm this is not an isolated occurrence. I recaptured the city of Tver which you can see on the original maps i submitted and it also did not raze and was assigned to the OCC civ. You are able to gift it back immediately. So essentially the code does not permit you to raze the culturally defined cities of your PA partner.:high5:As long as the city is immediated gifted back to the PA Partner, the game should be okay for the guantlet.

I guess we are going to have to check the histograph data for number of cities during the game, so be sure to let us know if you acquired an extra in your gauntlet submission.

Another tip: your 40 turns of shared war do not have to be against the same AI. I did 18 turns against one AI and then when my partner (pre-PA) made peace I declared on some one else and brought the same partner into that war. 22 turns later I could sign a PA.

I had another go just to try out wastin's approach and I can see how its achievable. I got one on 121 but i diverted to a couple of techs that were not in the direct path so i could build the parth and get some long bows. I was a little light on coin as well but basically nothing special in the city squares just floods a cow and some marble so you dont have to have a pile of gold mines or gems to get there. I tossed my partner two techs for the war and that was it. You can probably faciltate the war by tossing your confucian missionary in one direction and your taoist in the other.

Research path went to astronomy - for an observatory then researched to SM to within 1 turn went back brought lib to 1 turn to save the monastery kick. The finish SM , finish lib grab comm and sign on the dotted line. I used GP's on Ed PP and SM as well if i recall and traded for a couple of techs the ai had like calendar.

Hello everyone - my first post ever!

First of all, thanks to everyone who has posted ideas on this thread and others - I learned so much and some of you are so good at this game! I haven't played computer games in 10+ years but man, Civ IV is great.

I'm currently #2 with a sub-1900 game (beyond the sword) using a pretty different strategy and believe I could do 10+ turns earlier with better gameplay. Here it goes:

I didn't try for a permanent alliance early, instead I worked on getting a tech lead and traded almost nothing. I noticed that once I got a permanent alliance the cost of techs seemed to go up. Did anyone else notice this?

I think Mansu Mansu is the best leader because you need financial for the tech lead and spiritual saves you turns when you accede to demands like change religion. Here was my path:

1) Monarchy (to grow big)
2) Civil Service (+50% prod/gold bonus) (I might reverse this next time)
3) Education (for univ and oxford)
4) Biology (national park for the specialists and elimination of unhealthiness)
5) Globe theater (forget the tech) to eliminate unhappiness for
6) Representation to get a big tech bonus. I was running 600+ beakers a turn
7) communism for the permanent alliance. I got this around turn 145 or so - you do not need to get this early.

Next I build rifleman and then infantry and conquered the world while my useless ally sat around. The key is that you do not need to have him conquer the cities - simply sack them and he'll build new ones himself, quickly occupying the land. Having an expansive, organized or creative leader seems to help since they are more likely to build settlers or have their culture increase. My ally conquered maybe six cities total. Near the end I vassalized everyone but the last guy.

A warlike leader can be good but you'll still wait forever for him act.

I liked to pick someone a few spots away from me. I march my army and crush the intervening civs and then he settles in the background. If he is right next to me that process takes longer since he is less likely to settle a border. If war is declared (I used aggressive AI) great, declare war on the guy far away so you don't have to get involved (don't fight early - only tech). I think I only had to bribe one guy to declare war. I didn't go for an early PA so this wasn't a problem. Once I wanted the PA I bribed him, switched to his favourite civic and changed my religion (I've done more to get dates).

I used high sea-level and max number of civs. I did no almost no tech trading since I want a tech lead and my new partner will fill in the more useless techs anyways.

For maps it almost doesn't matter, but I like ones with lots of forests (for later specialists and early health), flood plains (for big cities, health cost won't matter after biology) and food sources (for big cities and more specialists). A river for all non-forest tiles is critical for the +1 commerce. I didn't care at all about any health or happiness resources since I won't need them for the second half of the game (national park and globe theater) and I went to monarchy early (building warriors) meaning I could get a huge city. I don't care about production resources since I'm focusing on research and don't need to build many units until turn 130+, by which time I can build the national epic (+100% military production) and thus build any unit in one turn (forest give lots of production).

For wonders, I only built oxford, national park and globe theater. Anything else detracts from tech - just produce research.

Anyways, hope this is helpful

-- Manic

I mentioned earlier that I tried the strategy of clearing space to let your partner settle. It seemed like the right thing to do to avoid the City Razing problem. It did not work at all for me. Catherine didn't build settlers. Maybe it was Catherine. Maybe it was that I was on BTS. I think it was because she was at war. Do you go to war alone and leave your future partner at peace?

Regarding wonders. Globe and Nat.Park seem like a good idea for OCC, but I never considered building either in this gauntlet. The Park comes too late to matter, and you have to research Biology and then build it. I'd rather build military. Same with Globe. If this was an OCC space race, sure. But does your city really need to be that big? It just needs to be big enough to build a military unit in 1 turn. Happiness/health aren't really a problem. After Oxford, I build non-stop military units except for Heroic Epic. I stick that in when it becomes available.

i've also found that catherine isn't really settling in the spaces especially ones not close to her original empire, but she isn't messing about too much with her army either
if you reduce the cultural defence and cripple the defenders she will usually capture the city with her units.

the only advantage to a bigger city is more overflow gold lets you build a bigger army

I did this with several leaders as partners and they all built settlers rather quickly. Remember that I used a hybrid strategy - if I thought they would take the city and had units nearby I'd reduce it to one weak defender and just hope. Otherwise I'd raze and move on.

For me, I wanted to hit the advanced techs and roll over the opposition. This worked pretty well but it meant I didn't build units until very late. Are you the number 1 spot? It would help to know how many turns I need to make up :)

I might try a game where I just beeline to rifleman and then pump out troops. I suspect I'd have to turn my cottages in watermills though which would destroy my teching.

-- Manic

Are you the number 1 spot? It would help to know how many turns I need to make up :)


I am with a date in the 1600's

Tonight I started a new game (probably won't finish) and, well, maybe it's because of the gold I got in the BFC (just 1), but I slingshot my way to CS in at 1100BC this time, and education was, err...turn 67. Don't remember the date. But in this game I early-teched much faster than before, must be the gold. Starting location was pretty good too: (BFC) - 3 spices, 1 gold, sheep, cattle ; (Outside BFC) - horses, copper, iron, marble, corn, 2 dye, another spice and possibly another corn and a pig at the next border pop.
Opponents: 9 (3 at the top and bottom, 2 on each side). I'm positioned bottom left and playing Peter again. Going clockwise are De Gaulle, Roosevelt, Augustus, Suleiman, Yaqob, Cyrus, Cathy, Joao and Shaka. Cathy was my planned ally but a little inconveniently located IMO (I prefer to ally a neighbour, or maybe 1 further next door).
My neighbours De Gaulle and Shaka went to war so after a little while I decided to join De Gaulle against Shaka. Nearly got taken out by a 15 unit stack but fortunately he kept hitting my 8 unit stack in a forest so he lost his stack and I lost only 2 units or so. Currently building forces and beelining to Communism and it's 1080AD or turn 115. I got MT again at turn 105 but the war started earlier. In fact, Shaka and De Gaulle made peace but I could send De Gaulle over again right away for a few techs.

Sorry for the thread jacking but it kind of ties in here.. I just though I'd let you guy know that the SGOTM people are doing a similar game to this as a "Quick" SGOTM to fill the time until the next BTS patch comes out.. IIRC they are doing a OCC on a tiny map with ALL of the AI :) and I think it is at Deity...

I think it would be cool to see a HOF team put together for this and show em what our little group of CFC'ers can accomplish.. especially after all of you getting some good practice at this..

threadjacking sidenote: Ya think AlanH stole this idea from here? :p

and now back to your regularly scheduled programming....

i'd be interested in following a HOF team play the game but i don't think i'd be able to reliably commit the time to play

Wastin Time -

A win in the 1600's? Wow, not going to get close to that. I tried again and did much better just building military units as you suggested (but didn't have time to finish).

I have a specific question: What is your first build usually? I almost always build a worker, then wait for a bit of growth and then settler, worker, settler. Is there a better (faster) pattern?

-- Manic

This Gauntlet is finished.

Results
1st 1670AD WastinTime
2nd 1894AD manic
3rd 1950AD ozbenno

Congratulations!

:woohoo: Fourth time I've finished third in a gauntlet, must try and get a second place.

Insane time Wastin (as expected) :bowdown:

Thanks Ozbenno.

I almost always build a worker first, then grow as you said, but rarely build a settler right away. (Of course this was OCC, but normally.) I also don't find a need a 2nd worker that soon either.

My plan this game was worker, warrior, library (get Academy ASAP). Build a few chariots to harrass a couple AI until Oracle used on Education, then Chop University, and Oxford while researching Gunpowder -- On turn 62 -- Then non-stop musketeers (I played France). Turn 104 Communism/PA. Turn 115 -- Mil. Trad. and then non-stop Cavalry. Heroic Epic when available. I attacked each city down to 1 defender and let Catherine clean up.

Great finish WastinTime! :king:
Oracle for Education, PA turn 104, no walk in the park at least for me. :)

a 1600s win is amazing, thats scarily fast. well done!
well done to manic and ozbenno as well. I was two (apparently i couldn't count earlier) turns off 3rd and finished 5th on score, i feel like i was close. Well its my best gauntlet finish so far anyway, will have to see if I can get a top 3 finish next time we play OCC

Hats off to WastinTime, both for his gauntlet idea and outstanding performance. If I haven't been so dumb to get a conquest win the same turn of domination I'd get 3rd spot. This was one of my favorite gauntlets.