This is the poll to select the first Prime Faction.

Factions Eligible for Prime Faction

Alphabetically listed:

Timus the Protector and his Men Leader: Methos, traits Imperialistic and Protective (Timus, Dutchfire, and one more member to be named as future officials)

Triad Coalition Leader: Shattered, traits Aggressive and Philosophical (Names written in Coalition Platform, with Stider of Atlantis and NZL of Warlords)

Tribal Council Leader: Daveshack, traits: Financial and Indutrious (Some of the names written in Coalition Platform, kwarriorpoet & lord_joakim)

This poll is private and will be open for 3 days. Should no faction receive more than 1/2 the votes, a runoff will be conducted between the top two, or all 3 if there is a tie for 2nd.

I'm glad I thought to check the polls forum. I thought this opened tomorrow night at 8 pm EDT! :lol:

The Church and it's followers (AKA the Triad Coalition).

POWER TO THE TRIAD!! (My new catchphrase. I kinda like it :) )

If your Independent vote for the Triad.

Go triad, go

Who else, but Timus!

So far so good.

Voted anonimously ;)

The Triad Coalition.

All faction names start with a T. Coincidence?

Vote for Timus!

Vote Timus!!!

I would like to point out that the Faction of Timus the Protector has a lot of game playing quality. Methos and I are both Hall of Fame Quattromasters, and together we have roughly two dozen #1 games in the HOF. We also have experience in Succession games, multi-team demogames and of course the normal Demogame. Methos was our first term leader in civ4 Demogame 2 (if my memory serves me well), and I have been leader in both civ4 DG1 and DG2.

We have been on these forums for years, and Methos, our faction leader has even become a moderator of these forums. We can trust him as a moderator, so we can trust him as our leader too.

I don't want this to become another debate thread, lol. Wondering if we should be posting advertisements and personal sentiments here?

Hmmm...I whole heartedly agree...

That's right guys, the polls for Prime Faction are officially open!! I am here with the very first (as far as I know) Civ4 "Get Out the (Pro-Triad) Vote" Drive. For those of you who have been living under a rock for the last month, (or undecided) The Sacred Triad is the faction for you!!

Our fearless leader, Shattered, bringer of the rains, foreseer of the techs, along with NZL and Strider , is asking you to get out there and vote, vote, vote!! I'm not going to bog down this thread with platform lingo (that is found in the Triad Coalition platform thread!) and long debate. Just know that in the world as led by Shattered, prosperity will reign, crops will grow, cheese will fall from the skies!! Your voice will be heard, your disputes justly solved; you will have land, fellowship, and a prosperous empire that streches from sea to shining sea!!

If guilds are your cup of tea, know that we are aligned with virtually every guild on these forums, including the Church of Giruvegan and the evergrowing Monks of Magma, alongside the newly formed Brothers Material!!

So, what'll we vote? TRIAD!! (clap)

When will we vote it? NOW!! (clap)

What'll we vote? TRIAD!! (clap)

When will we vote it? NOW!! (clap)

POWER TO THE TRIAD!! WHOO!

This is from my Pro-Triad GOTV thread! :goodjob:

The Triad is a fair alliance of three like-minded people: I hope that the novel and good solutions brought by the Triad, proven by its broad support base, should be convincing enough. We also hope to bring some much needed new blood to this game, and not have the positions recycled among veterans forever. Part of playing this game is to allow for new people and new ideas to assume responsibility, aside from rewarding moderation privileges and experience from other game forums and demogames as a default qualifier (Two of the faction leaders are moderators, and it would be good for the game to get a new player in the leadership position).

Vote Triad for a real change.

Vote Triad for change! It brings the best of all worlds, the Philosophers, Warlords and Atlanteans! We are equipped for all situations and events. We are your choice.

Some comments (not related to the election in itself):

When I created the faction based system I was expected some additional work to get it to this point, but now I found myself pleasantly mistaken. At first I believed that we would find ourselves with only 2 powerful factions and we'd have to work on "splintering" more.

Obviously, we have 5 powerful factions (although three of those formed a coalition) and several powerful guilds that can also compete if they so chose. Even better? We haven't degraded to the point of insults, flames, or the like to push our factions position. Even better? People seem pretty excited about the rebellion so far! It's been awhile since we had people posting in other threads telling people to vote.

Success thus far tastes rather sweet!

I also think that private forums helped out a bit, as new ideas are not attacked on sight, so that they survive the infant stage to be developed to completion by those that want to elaborate on that idea as a group, and not let themselves be overrun and vetoed by those that discourage the idea and blemish the originators. Now these forces have less influence, which makes for a more civilized civilization game.

Hmmm...I whole heartedly agree...

That's right guys, the polls for Prime Faction are officially open!! I am here with the very first (as far as I know) Civ4 "Get Out the (Pro-Triad) Vote" Drive. For those of you who have been living under a rock for the last month, (or undecided) The Sacred Triad is the faction for you!!

Our fearless leader, Shattered, bringer of the rains, foreseer of the techs, along with NZL and Strider , is asking you to get out there and vote, vote, vote!! I'm not going to bog down this thread with platform lingo (that is found in the Triad Coalition platform thread!) and long debate. Just know that in the world as led by Shattered, prosperity will reign, crops will grow, cheese will fall from the skies!! Your voice will be heard, your disputes justly solved; you will have land, fellowship, and a prosperous empire that streches from sea to shining sea!!

If guilds are your cup of tea, know that we are aligned with virtually every guild on these forums, including the Church of Giruvegan and the evergrowing Monks of Magma, alongside the newly formed Brothers Material!!

So, what'll we vote? TRIAD!! (clap)

When will we vote it? NOW!! (clap)

What'll we vote? TRIAD!! (clap)

When will we vote it? NOW!! (clap)

POWER TO THE TRIAD!! WHOO![/QUOTE]

This is from my Pro-Triad GOTV thread! :goodjob:

Edit: Can someone tell me how to fix my quote? Please?

I believed your end-quote needs a back-slash.

Praise the gods, It is fixed!!! Gracias Rashiminos

Triad :king:

There are really just 3 factions now. And, I am greatful that a third came along. I am also greatful for the emense participation here, and the cooler heads that are prevailing now. I look forward to a future discussion on debate ground rules, etc...

May whatever higher power you chose to worship, hate, or ignore bless our future nation with prosperity :)

Yes, and may the Winning faction do what is needed for our nation to succeed

Yes, may the best coalition...err, faction win!

Timus looks upon these people, not in anger, but understanding. He knows that he is a stranger, an unknown. If only they knew of what he could do for them. He has been out in the wilderness and he knows the dangers that exist. He's seen another city, much like this one, capture his people and enslave them. These people here do not know the dangers they face and just how much he is willing to sacrifice to lead them.

Though this triad is strong in number, he knows it isn't numbers that lead.

The Follower of the Fish gives Timus a hug

Coalition! Yeah Coalition!

May the Triad be blessed with victory! :D

At least we have a healthy vote.

I think it would have been more interesting with 4 or 5 factions. The "we don't really care which of us is in charge as long as it's not you" tactic is a bit annoying.

*shrug*

There might be a few that feel that way, DS, but I doubt most do. The coalition was a good decision - it allowed a smaller Faction to create a large Faction, but still keep the core of their ruleset.

I quite biased, but I think the Tribal ruleset is significantly more flexible and open than the Triad tuleset. There's a large lead for Triad right now, but still time for the Tribal Council to bounce back!

-- Ravensfire

I think we should respect that there were three very distinct platform that had three different messages, and that we trust the players to compare the three platforms. I will not make a premature analysis of what were the causes of where the support went, but there are something platform specific that people preferred above the other, look aside from strong personalities and fiery exchanges.

Fundamentally, I think Triad presented a concept and a system enough people liked, and the strongest support of the factions support came there. Just see how Methos' inspiring roleplay suddenly drew 3 more supporters (as of posting time), with a platform conceived a few hours before the deadline.

Roleplay do matter in a forum based mass-experience like this, since people may get more inspired by that, than by numerous abbreviations, pseudo-scientific terms etc, and rather focus on the core narrative, what actually happens to this new nation, and how would it be if all of us actually lived in there (would be brutal, probably, I would probably not even survive a full turn given the activity level on the forum, but still, interesting thought :) )

There's a large lead for Triad right now, but still time for the Tribal Council to bounce back!

...or Timus the Protector.

My one worry is that, no matter what the faction is that wins, players are still going to play this as a democracy. My understanding of the ruleset is we play like the civics we are in, even if that means the ruler acts like a tyrant.

I'm also hoping that as the game progresses, we continue to play this under the RP concept. In other words, if we come to realize that we as players are more comfortable under a certain civic that we stick with that civic, even if it isn't the best civic for us game wise.

For example, if we as players realize that we all play together best under representation [read: less argueing], but find that another civic would work better for the game, we still stick with representation. We make choices RP based, rather than game based. At least, that is what my understanding of the rules is. If I'm misunderstanding, then ignore this. ;)

I 100 % agree with Methos here. Those that want a ruleset reflecting bureaucracy, caste system and free religion, please work towards that end and act it out. If you are not made to act like a dictator, ayatollah or monarch, go ahead in another capacity, and stay true to the civic you actually play.

I also think that Triad is not really a democracy either, and people are aware of that. Tribal is more of a patronage democracy, where Triad is more playing out the decentralized, despotic and barbaric state of an early civilization, with the faction city concept and other concepts that are well thought out and true to the basic civics.

Tribal has done nothing to encourage a game-integrated roleplay or to structure for it, merely promised not to get in the way of roleplay. Well, that promise is redundant, as people roleplay with or without that promise, but they roleplay much better when the nation is actually run by roleplaying principles (Like Timus fighting slavery, for example).

The name of the game is Democracy Game for a reason. In my opinion, there is no point in being here without a way to influence events. Tribal Council guarantees that every citizen will have that opportunity, and I have no trust in either of the other factions that ordinary citizens will have anything at all to say about how the game plays.

Daveshack, there will always be a way to influence the Prime Faction, no matter who it is. It's called the Prime Faction Election!! As long as the Prime Faction is decided by popular election, the citizens will always have a say. But everyone will come to realize this as soon as the election is over. Oh, and by the way... POWER TO THE TRIAD!!!!

That is the idea of Despotism, DS. One, or a small group of people, will control the government. If an "ordinary citizen" wants to have a say in the processes of running the government, then point them to a faction. The beauty of the Triad is that we consist of three factions, so to have a say in the government, you have three different choices of RP to be apart of. We of the Triad are going to roleplay our term should we win, and I don't see how democracy fits in, in this day and age. We are a decentrilized, barbaric, paganistic, despotism. So we shall run our nation as such, should we be elected. Once the ages fade away, and more civic options are available, there will be a plethora of different ways to run a government. Yet, as it stands now, despots will reign.

Thats what is different about this demo game. Its a faction game and the type of way we rule and roleplay is similar to the era and civics available. So the thing is this game is open for involvement and participaition. But at this stage not in the traditional sense of democracy and rights. As we evolve we will change. The key is getting involved. If some one isn't involved, they probably wouldn't be very involved or have much power in a traditional democracy game.

So if the problem with the triad is that we stick to the faction style of gameplay to much, that makes we question what a vote for Tribal would mean. And what type of demo game you prefer.

Well, we are not playing "Ralph Nader the Consumer Knight" or "Erin Brockowitz, the concerned environmental soothsayer" or "Michael Moore the Sage". This should be a game reflecting its historical habitat, long before the term "citizen" was coined. The idea is to be true to the historic setting, not use post 1776 concepts of enlightenment and so on.

One needs to liberate oneself from that thought. And yes, the democracy would not be gone, there will maybe be a couple of fewer openings, but enough to log in, discuss and vote all days. What is not going to be, is running detailed operations (where military units go, where workers go, how the slider goes) by committee decision, continuous repolls over minor issues stifling the game and long "legal" proceedings in the tradition of Kafka's "The Procedure", tormenting old and new players with a grievous kangaroo court where only 3 players decides like back in the old days, that was indeed elitist. This system involves more people than before, and would thus work out.

As it stands, elections like this have a bigger say, and have indeed some impact on how the game is run for a few weeks, where the so-called winner before only had a marginal say in their own regime, as it was the loudest voice that dictated. If people are not happy by how its run, we must trust the electorate to replace those in power with someone new. The old constitution system cemented these changes so badly, that people were stuck with a system they did not like for a long time, hurting recruitment.

If we cultivate what factions really do represent, and form distinct factions with era-based identities, interests and objectives as well as basic rules, we will see a more dynamic game, with more participation than ever before.

If one really wants democracy, one needs to wait for representation, bureaucracy, caste system and other civics reflecting that concept.

We want a historical roleplay simulation, not an NGO legal citizens right panel simulation, for that I recommend 2008 Political Machine, Democracy and other pc games out there.

Here's what I would have done had Timus won...

Timus would have considered him the final word for the tribe. All major decisions we're done by him and no one else. There would be no voting. That doesn't mean he wouldn't listen to his people. He would still take counsel from everyone, but the final decision would be his. If Timus noticed someone else had more knowledge of a certain subject than Timus would grant him as a sub-leader over that area, but Timus would still have the ability to override him if he chose.

Yes, people may not like this style, but considering the current government we're in, I felt it odd to play any other way. I would have tried to keep everyone interested, involved, and excited about the game, but Timus would have still been the ruler.

Yes this is a democracy game and therefore no matter what civics we are in, we should still do our best to keep everyone included. But if we're going to play this type of game we need to try to stick somewhat within our civics. If everything is played democratic then we're not really playing as the concept specified.

I wasn't around for creation, but I got the idea that the majority wanted to RP this version of the game.

Just my 2 :gold:

I would have tried to keep everyone interested, involved, and excited about the game

This comment is more for the Triad, but Metho's quote is a handy place to hang my comment...

As long as everyone includes people who can't or don't want to role play, and "interested" means having something to do that doesn't involve just waiting until representation, I'll be satisfied.

That is what I am pushing for. However even in previous demo games when I'd try to participate I felt left out, uninterested, and ineffective. The objectives of factions is to help bring the scale down for people. While an individual may feel they lack a voice at the national level they would have a greater one in the faction they join.

I hear very much what Croxis is saying. The old demogames had a sort of priest class everyone had to listen to at all times. Now people can carve out their own thing and put it up for election without being overruled by some elite.

While an individual may feel they lack a voice at the national level they would have a greater one in the faction they join.

I hear very much what Croxis is saying. The old demogames had a sort of priest class everyone had to listen to at all times.

This is untrue, unless you're referring to WOTP.

Now people can carve out their own thing

This is saying exactly what I don't want to hear.

Everyone must have some influence on the actual game. Telling us to just plot an overthrow in our faction thread and leave you all alone until the next election doesn't cut it. Tribal Council guarantees that we have no intention of saying that to Triad, but I see nothing concrete the other direction.

Everyone is not everyone as such. Influences differ much from person to person, and based on interest and available time. There should be consequences to winning an election, and losing an election, not just be appointed to some arbitrary secretary being at the mercy of the loudest posters that knows how to spin you. If that is democracy, please make that a platform and gain enough support for it, I assume that is quite doable, as there are some players preferring that way.

As Shattered told in another thread, there will be some influence on the game also for non-faction members, but not as much as for faction members. I can safely assume the same would apply if Tribal Council wins, some players would not get the same ear for proposals, simply because they think differently, got different objectives and different focus areas and even got some prehistory impacting the attention a player seeks.

I guess many have experienced that they get various responses from various leaders at various times, and you always see that some players treat other players more favorably on a regular basis. We see that all the time. Even the process of setting up the game settings proves that point. The only fair way to mitigate that is by faction elections. If some players feel the system too simplistic, too oppressive, too bland, too structured, too chaotic, too predictable, too unpredictable and too complex, they simple use their time in opposition to formulate another platform and muster enough support to replace the other platform. The side incapable of keeping up the interest in their own faction, is bound to get less votes the next time around.

In other words, we should promote the social experience in a competitive setting by building this around factions, not some arbitrary notion of what is "normal", as that vary wildly by age, nationality, profession, personality, temper and interests.

Making factions decide the structure is still the most fair way to do it.

Everyone is not everyone as such.

With your history of telling people to buzz off when you're an official, I would think that some other member of the triad might be a better carrier for your banner.

On this forum, everyone is everyone, or at least that's my opinion.

With your history of telling people to buzz off when you're an official, I would think that some other member of the triad might be a better carrier for your banner.

On this forum, everyone is everyone, or at least that's my opinion.

Well, you cannot censor me, so I feel free "to carry the banner", like any other Triad faction member. I am within forum rules with this one as well.

You got no right to declare me a personal quarantine over that particular event, and most of the time I did listen to players, as I have done in this game and in helping build up the Warlords Faction. I honesty think this indeed is a personal conflict, and has nothing to do with the three options presented here. I hope this conflict will end, as least it will from my side, so that we can focus on the game within the new faction rules. I know the outcome may feel a bit frustrating, but there will be other elections.

The thing you referred to was a singular occasion from summer 2007, a lesson I learnt from, I apologized and did not repeat that action since, and I thought that was now considered part of the past. I am not an official here, so please be so kind and leave past demogames out, I am quite certain that I am not the only one that did mistakes. I would rather like a focus now on the ruleset, coalition and general direction of the Triad.

For example, I am not bringing up the time where you restarted the demogame a couple of times back in 2005 due a technical mistake, or other times you did mistakes, when I even voted for you the term after, as that is irrelevant here. This election is about the ruleset and how to play term one, not about delivering awards and penalties for past games, and to hand out credit and discredit to individuals.

If your problem is with me as a player, please tell me (or us) that in another setting. Blaming me for past events in prior demogames signals that the case for Tribals is weak, as I got to serve as the scapegoat for all wrongs.

You have done a good number of mistakes as I have done, and other players made mistakes as well, no question about it. Now, let us focus on this game alone, and not make this a popularity contest based on past game actions.

Let us focus on the three options at hand please.

If 30 (or even 26) of the roughly 50 people here say they want to do something, the wise and noble Chief will do what they say. The message of the Triad is that no matter how many people want a thing, if the leader does not want it then it will not happen.

If this is incorrect, then please enlighten us.

The Chief will always respond respectfully to the input from any member of the tribe, not just the Council. The Triad message is that Triad members will be heard and others may plot their rebellion of they don't like it.

If this is incorrect, please enlighten us.

It is correct what you say Daveshack, but there is more to it you decided to leave out, faction cities, more positions with functions, more active factions internally, better internal organization, narratives, identity and the development of various integrated
subgames many of the players would cater to, sustaining same identities.

Each faction got their internal processes that makes it good to remain in those factions, these are more democratic than you think, just different from what you are used to.

This is what the vast majority would like, and they would like Shattered to be the one to follow as it stands. It also help to bring in some new players to take the lead as well.

You can single me out for personal attack all you want, but the Triad system is a much better system in many regards.

It is correct what you say Daveshack

Are you sure you mean this? That it is expected that Triad will be disrespectful to citizens? It is expected that Triad will turn a deaf ear even if an overwhelming majority wants something?


You can single me out for personal attack all you want, but the Triad system is a much better system in many regards.

No, I'm singling out the thought that it is ok to ignore citizen input, which the Triad seems to embrace. You happen to be a handy example of someone who has done exactly what I want to avoid. Cyc and donsig did it too, a long time before you arrived. There have been others too.

Edit: Let me add, that I don't disagree with a roleplay base and have no problem with leadership which leads. I have a specific problem with statements here and elsewhere which imply (to me at least) that once Triad is in power the rest of us might as well just take a vacation.

I will not speak on behalf of Shattered, or for that matter NZL and Strider. But we got a chain of command, not a syndicalist commune, and we will respect that. They are elected, so its their responsibility to make the right decisions, and if they fail, well, there will be a change in government by election time. So, I am not speaking for the new leadership that will take over, they will manage their own decisions.

However, as each faction got a contract with our faction leader, and each faction leader is part of the Triad, of course their prime support base is their respective factions.
Non-faction members will have to influence the in-game environment by making good research that is useful, by proposing alternate moves they themselves must research, not demand it in an intimidating tone we have seen before. The Leader would be in the full right to make an action/instruction on his own, and the burden of evidence to influence that decision would be from the critic, not the leader. Even the press today needs to investigate, research and well document a story before they ask a minister to resign, only in the last two demogames it has been a convention that very demanding citizens can crucify a leader over an intended move without lifting a finger in research.

I would also like to see Cyc and Donsig back again, as they were fun and intelligent posters and good with a strong narrative theme. I do not begrudge their past and think they would help enrich the game, now that the Judiciary is gone.

So, Triad would not ignore non-faction citizen input (Faction members are of course listened to through the election result). However, from now on a small group of citizens cannot raise hell and assume command over the government by making polls for the smallest decisions, like in some hippie collective of sorts. Such a weak government would ruin some of ours roleplaying experience, and not be true to the civics we represent.

So, in opposition, you can make better proposals than the official for handling specific situations, and persuade the official to adopt your wants. If you are in opposition, you may need to research these alternate more, not merely demand both the research and the action from the official and behave as the official and his/her mandate is your private property. The faction system ensures some stability of regime, until people want to replace them. So if you want to get more votes, work more on the platform, recruit people, give players interesting tasks and communities, narratives and so on. There is not much votes to get from harming old Provo, saying Triad is bad and referring to X amounts of demogames and past demogame players most new players have not heard about.

I am quite sure a good number here give a damn about past demogame lore, and would much prefer a good, narrative solution based on Civ4 BTS, and not the history of a handful demogamers.

Are you sure you mean this? That it is expected that Triad will be disrespectful to citizens? It is expected that Triad will turn a deaf ear even if an overwhelming majority wants something?

No, I'm singling out the thought that it is ok to ignore citizen input, which the Triad seems to embrace. You happen to be a handy example of someone who has done exactly what I want to avoid. Cyc and donsig did it too, a long time before you arrived. There have been others too.


The only one "expecting" the Triad to be absolute and disrespectful is you, DS. Do you honestly think that I, as their leader, would ignore the populace's pleas and ideas? Sure I would, if I didn't want to be in power anymore. If I wanted the populace to rebel, then I would turn a deaf ear to the "majority". As it stands though, unless a huge number of citizens call for something, the Triads word is law. I am not unsympathetic towards those not in my faction, and will even have my members open up threads, as some of them may need help or ideas from the citizens. What I do not see is constant voting for every aspect of the game. Should a citizen want to influence the game, have them contact a faction member with an idea. If its good enough, then it might be used, credit going to the citizen of course. We plan to host, or make, many non-governmental activities for the populace to slake its thirst for roleplay. So if its your #1 perogative to absolutely want to be in power without being in a faction, then I'm sorry to say that won't happen in this core system. At least not for a while. The Triad is three factions with three slices of power in our nation. That means that if we win, you will have three different factions to choose from, should you want say in the government.
Otherwise, there are still going to be a great many things for citizens to do once the map is generated. Basicly, all I'm saying is, you don't have to be in control to have fun.

There is talk in my faction about letting Followers appoint non-faction members as Apprentices should no one in our faction join. This is another avenue one could take should they want power.

I would also like to thank Provolution for standing up for the Triad's way. Anyone who does this is a banner carrier in my eyes.

If 30 (or even 26) of the roughly 50 people here say they want to do something, the wise and noble Chief will do what they say. The message of the Triad is that no matter how many people want a thing, if the leader does not want it then it will not happen.

If this is incorrect, then please enlighten us.

The Chief will always respond respectfully to the input from any member of the tribe, not just the Council. The Triad message is that Triad members will be heard and others may plot their rebellion of they don't like it.

If this is incorrect, please enlighten us.

It is correct what you say Daveshack


Do you honestly think that I, as their leader, would ignore the populace's pleas and ideas?

You haven't said either way -- that is the point. A simple "yes we will provide a way for all to be heard" a page ago would have been sufficent. Your followers seem to think my fears are well grounded. :rolleyes:

Between elections, citizens will be heard, with their biggest asset in their proposals, recommendations, criticisms and so on, not the option to overrule a sovereign regime by a citizen poll (unless you make that a platform for later, but that is in effect more or less a traditional faction as I see it). Some want the citizen overrule poll, some wont. There is still a plethora of ways to be heard, and none of the Triad would object to listening. However, listening does not mean the Triad would accept it all.
You wrote in your own platform you call the final shots, so do we (Shattered and the two others).


But not having the sudden overrule poll does not mean the citizens cannot be heard, simply that a handful of rabblerousers must wait till they get into government before they call the shots, not overrule an existing governments plan (based on platform) by impulse and by for example whipping up an atmosphere of hostility towards an official.

If a faction wins with such a ruleset, so be it. People want a change from established practice, that is very clear from where I stand.

That's a little closer to what I'm hoping to see. It still falls short of "if most of the people want it we'll do it" like Tribal Council is saying.

I think it is settled then, all here listens/reads forums, and take in new impulses and ideas across factions, no one is that anti-social I think. However, having a poll everything regime may just cause too much buzz and a polling fatigue. There is only so many polls people want every week, so we should not only appease to the poll enthusiasts. The main thing here, is to allow the leaders the liberty to take controversial actions, without worrying too much about metagame politics and delicate wording. Neither Shattered Strider or NZL are trained lawyers, or interested in pleading a case for powers they already got, however, they may ask for counsel and be open to good ideas. A good idea stands on its own merits, so no one will be excluded for who they are.

One thing is to win the war (this election), but we also want a life afterwards in peace, and that means that all players will be involved enough in a capacity, to at least make the majority more interested. This is primarily about entertainment, not rights per se.

I have a question for you Dave. Where do you live again? I am going to assume your sig is accurate and you live in the U.S, a representative democracy. Does your congressman hold a referendum everytime he votes on a bill? Does your governor hold a poll everytime he goes to work in the morning? NO! They have been elected to do a job, and they do it!

And do you know why they don't run a dictatorship regime? B/c they have re-election to worry about! Why can't that same concept work here? Why do our representatives have to hold a poll every time they make a decision, but the ones in the real government don't?

You trust politicians to do their jobs, to decide your taxes, to declare war, to run drafts, but you won't trust a non-politician to run a fake, totally irrelevant, pixelated government?!

So, how about we try the whole representative democracy thing? It seems to do fairly well in real life, and there are no prostitutes in Civ4. :D
And if you don't like how things are done, send a letter to your "congressman", or better yet, win the next time around!!!

*burns soapbox* :D

So, how about we try the whole representative democracy thing? It seems to do fairly well in real life, and there are no prostitutes in Civ4. :D
And if you don't like how things are done, send a letter to your "congressman", or better yet, win the next time around!!!


Hey buddy, what about that Beaver resource, that may count for something :)

I prefer sheep myself...

There are three (or more) layers to this game, the meta-game, the roleplay game, and the :bts: game.. In my concept of the meta-game layer, we are roleplaying being the representatives. The 50 or so of us will each represent thousands in the game. A legislative body does poll many things, that's how laws are passed.

If you think I want to see everything polled, you are mistaken. Issues where few people care certainly don't need a poll. Issues where most people agree with the plan don't need a poll either. You will see many things have been decided here by consent. But when a poll is needed, it's needed.

Dave, I am happy to here that, especially where you say that issues where most people agree with the plan do not require a poll. Because, by voting for the Triad, you are agree with our plan [of government]. And since most, by way of which I mean a majority, of people seem to agree with our plan, that is the plan to be enacted. The voters aren't stupid Dave. If they felt we would rule with an iron fist, destroying any and all semblance of democracy, then they wouldn'y vote for us, would they?

That is not to say that when a clarification, or outright change, of the plan is needed that we won't hold a poll. But for the most part, we will do what we have said we will without first holding a poll, not because we are dictators, but because the poll has already been held, right here.

Just some ideas in order to stay in character, build a bridge between metagame, roleplay, civ4 BTS game and the polling regime.

I think Universal Suffrage should include citizen polls at all levels if only one player wants it. Representation should have 3-4 players to sign a petition for a poll, to signify parliamentary procedure in raising a case (should not be on the military operational level but rules of engagement for representation, for example). I also think we need to expand the civic core for the factions, and as Timus/Methos suggested, put another civic than a govt civic in the core. Code of Laws/Caste System could be a good place to start in order to qualify for a sort of supreme court. I think we had elements of caste system in prior demogames, with a sort of tiered system.

So there is plenty of options here to make a civic happen, and to get in place metagame rules that fit the civic.

But agian DS, that is the old democracy game. Like the many of us said (which opens a irony, the fact that some one is argueing agianst the majority for a populist rule.) this is an experiment. A new type of game. The thing is its obvious that people want to try this new type of democracy game.

This arguement is getting really circular. I think you have made yourself clear. And if you got in power we know what you would do. And the same goes for us. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

This arguement is getting really circular. I think you have made yourself clear. And if you got in power we know what you would do. And the same goes for us. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

Which is, in the end, the benefit of the faction-based system. We can edit to allow any type of faction reasonable if there is enough support for it.

I've enjoyed this. We are not so much stumbling in the dark, but it feels nice (for once) to not know what is going to happen. We've had to look for ways to get things to work (like the first rebellion) instead of everything already being planned out.

I must say that I'm really starting to like the whole faction system. The main difference between this game and those prior is that we get the option to entirely change the government at least every two weeks. Even if one goverment takes charge that I don't like, it's no big deal, as there's the possibility of removing it.

It shouldn't get stale, as hopefully it'll continue to change and grow.

I must say that I'm really starting to like the whole faction system. The main difference between this game and those prior is that we get the option to entirely change the government at least every two weeks. Even if one goverment takes charge that I don't like, it's no big deal, as there's the possibility of removing it.

It shouldn't get stale, as hopefully it'll continue to change and grow.'

Indeed Methos, we may even stretch it that far, this is the very first democracy game, as far as I see the democracy concept. What we had before was sort of a system, but not democracy as I see it.

Having the opportunity to actually change a system on a running basis is essential, and much more worth than any perceived right we had in any previous demogame system.

Having the opportunity to actually change a system on a running basis is essential

There always was the ability to change anything we wanted to change. In fact, the previous game was started with a system that was expected to change. Some people have wanted to make change difficult in the past, but you will find that I always championed the ability to change whatever we want, whenever we want. :cool:

This (faction) mechanism is an improvement. You will find it got my stamp of approval almost from its inception. I tested it, to be sure, just as I'm testing the winner of this election. That will probably meet my approval too -- until the rebellion which is sure to come. ;)

I agree. But the tendency has been too much of conservative, destructive, oversimplifying and/or relativistic forces, not to mention ahistorical with regards to civics and technology levels, and an utter banishment of roleplay postings in describing in-game events.

This has been a hard change, done with a good portion of opposition, but is now changed.

The core now is to stay true to the era and civics, and involve players on different levels, not merely give them a poll here and there to overrule an official under siege.
Various roles, functions, sub-organization, human interaction based on a series of premises, are all essential if you are a player new to this. Relying on demogame history and convention met its end in the evolutionary epistomology of part change in demogame experience, part change in demogame population and part change in the game engine itself. Civics as a milestone for political change has come to stay.

Arg, Why am I only available to come in and vote *after* the poll finishes...?

I have a question for you Dave. Where do you live again? I am going to assume your sig is accurate and you live in the U.S, a representative democracy. Does your congressman hold a referendum everytime he votes on a bill? Does your governor hold a poll everytime he goes to work in the morning? NO! They have been elected to do a job, and they do it!

And do you know why they don't run a dictatorship regime? B/c they have re-election to worry about! Why can't that same concept work here? Why do our representatives have to hold a poll every time they make a decision, but the ones in the real government don't?

You trust politicians to do their jobs, to decide your taxes, to declare war, to run drafts, but you won't trust a non-politician to run a fake, totally irrelevant, pixelated government?!

So, how about we try the whole representative democracy thing? It seems to do fairly well in real life, and there are no prostitutes in Civ4. :D
And if you don't like how things are done, send a letter to your "congressman", or better yet, win the next time around!!!

*burns soapbox* :D

The civic is despotism...

I believe that the following numbers should speak well enough for themselves:

Total registered citizens from the citizen registry = 70
Total Triad Faction Members (includes known phylosopher's, warlords, and protectors of atlantis members) = 34 (I used the signup threads and the faction threads to compile these numbers)
Tribal Council Faction Members = 16 (I know this number)
Timus Faction = 3 (This number is from the Timus faction thread)

So...in this election, there was only the potential for 17 independent voters...I didn't see any non-affiliated people respond in writing to the poll, but that doesn't mean that they didn't vote, but I suspect that not many non-affiliated citizens voted.

Additionally, only 41 of the 70 known citizens in our budding tribe voted. Assuming a strong showing from the factions, I am extremely impressed with the strong showing for the Tribal Council.

On behalf of the Tribal Council, allow me to extend my hand first to the citizens who voted for the Tribal Council, then to all of you who participated, and then to the members of the Triad, may you govern well and may you pay heed to the wisdom of those, who have held similar positions in the past. We are in your hands.

I think if you review previous statistics on voter turnout from all the other demogames, back to the fabled demogame 1 with which the hardcore demogamers judge your forum pedigree, you will see the same pattern, most of the "independents" or people not up for a vote did not vote. You would be better to see the ratio of active voter population as such compared to number of registered citizens.

Also, most of the "independent voters" do not post at all, and the few that does post, are already household names, of which I guess majority of these voted tribal. Timus left Tribals with some voters, so you can deduct some turnout on that one.

That said, thanks to all five factions involved in this election and to the two 1 person factions that tried, we all made a grand improvement to the structuring of elections in demogames, with a major important ticket to concentrate on, not some assembly of persons. This allowed us to stay more on core platform differences, and not make this a vote over personal preference alone, as it was before.

Elections are over and the Triad won beyond any doubts.
My congratulations to them!
I think it's now time to say my position (it is not an important opinion,just mine).
I have little experience of DG here; just the last one, that actually was not ONE
game,as it collapsed before its end.
That last (and my only) game was IMHO a poor, uninteresting game.
While I never agreed with some of its rules, I always respected and followed
them. And I saw there some who always spoke about rules and seldom followed
them (it is written cannot be denied).
But now shall be a new game. With new rules. A new system (?) may be.
A good game? I don't know. I wish yes. Time shall tell.
I will be there.
My best regards,

Poll is closed with Triad having 24 of 41 votes, or 58,54%. The Triad Coalition will be the first prime faction then, having a majority of the votes on it's own.

Let it be a good and prosperous time for our civilization!

All I can see is mob rule...

then again, that should make the roleplayers happy since we're in despotism.

All I can see is mob rule...

then again, that should make the roleplayers happy since we're in despotism.

I am sorry we could not meet your highly selective standards, but those in the Triad see themselves as something different than a mob, in spite of not having a long prehistory on these forums, a long demogame prehistory, in spite of not having GOTM and HOF household-names in their ranks and no moderators in their ranks. Still we represent something new, without deserving to be labeled as a mob. On the contrary, we are some of the best organized entities in this game, which is quite evident when comparing platforms, common understanding of goals and a good internal mood.

I echo Provolution's sentiment.

Many of us in the triad may be new to the demo-game and may not be household names with over a thousand posts but we are very capable group of players who I will hope will earn your respect.

We did not win the election by mistake or through playing a Newbie vs the old timers campaign. Like many that joined our ranks, I came in to this part of the civ world with an open mind and when I read the faction descriptions and platform, the philosophers to me seemed like the right fit. It had nothing to do with who was in what group, and I think many of the rest of us would say the same.

We have worked hard to form a coalition and platform that fits the civic of the day though not in the way you may expect (much morre like city states than a central tribal leader) but that was present and commen in stone age societies. Often those who do not understand a system can only see it as a mob. I am sorry that is all that you see.

I am sorry we could not meet your highly selective standards, but those in the Triad see themselves as something different than a mob, in spite of not having a long prehistory on these forums, a long demogame prehistory, in spite of not having GOTM and HOF household-names in their ranks and no moderators in their ranks. Still we represent something new, without deserving to be labeled as a mob. On the contrary, we are some of the best organized entities in this game, which is quite evident when comparing platforms, common understanding of goals and a good internal mood.

You have me! :king:

I am the oldest DGer and the only one who can remember the very first Civ3 democracy game.

I echo Provolution's sentiment.

Many of us in the triad may be new to the demo-game and may not be household names with over a thousand posts but we are very capable group of players who I will hope will earn your respect.

We did not win the election by mistake or through playing a Newbie vs the old timers campaign. Like many that joined our ranks, I came in to this part of the civ world with an open mind and when I read the faction descriptions and platform, the philosophers to me seemed like the right fit. It had nothing to do with who was in what group, and I think many of the rest of us would say the same.

We have worked hard to form a coalition and platform that fits the civic of the day though not in the way you may expect (much morre like city states than a central tribal leader) but that was present and commen in stone age societies. Often those who do not understand a system can only see it as a mob. I am sorry that is all that you see.

I think most people in the DG do hold the Triad with respect - it was a masterful stroke to put together such a coalition and guarantee a victory in the first term. Contrary to Provo's view, I doubt anyone looks down on the Triad. Period. Full stop. No conditionals to that statement. His oft-repeated views about history just don't apply here.

I have my concerns about the ruleset, but hey - what else would you expect? The Tribal Council will be expressing our views about the paths we take as a nation, as will everyone else. We do wish for a solid start in both the Civ4 game and in the DG game.

So that said, when will the Triad Coalition be starting the DG. Your ruleset is done, your positions are set - let's get this going!

-- Ravensfire

My response was to Dutchfire's post (he was the one promoting the parameters he advocated he and his faction met, by mileage referral status), I think the relations of Tribal-Triad are now cordial and open, and I think the game will be more inclusive than many here feared, and less exclusive than several demogames that presented themselves as "democratic".

People should not be worried about that Triad will last forever, Term One (about a month ) will pass, and given availability of techs, civic choices and land resources, Triad will at the maximum last 100-125 turns (max 2 or so terms), when development catches up.

Soon we will see a reshuffle of players and factions alike, some because relations improve our worsen, and some for trying something new and some for seeing a new perspective in the in-game and sub-game development.

excatly, and the other thing is we are not a mob that wants non faction members to shut up and watch. We encourage dialogue and ideas as an elightened society. We just believe at this moment or era or nation needs strong leadership.

What's wrong with mob rule anyway? Isn't that why Despots come to power? To bring order to chaos? Mob rule occurs when a despot or whatever government is in power fails to act responsibly and ignores the people or fails to otherwise maintain order. Dutch is a member of the Protectors of Timus faction, by the way. I wouldn't want to get Timus angry! ;)

excatly, and the other thing is we are not a mob that wants non faction members to shut up and watch. We encourage dialogue and ideas as an elightened society. We just believe at this moment or era or nation needs strong leadership.

Strong, effective leadership, what more could anyone ask for!?! I'm just dieing to get this game officially kicked off in an /ooc kind of way.

Congratulations to the Triad Coalition. All are welcome for free drinks at the Congrats Party over at the Pub. :)