With all the new units that have been released recently, and my flavourization of the civ for my mod, I've seen I'm not completly happy with the tech tree as it is. So I'll probably rework it a bit, and introduce more civ specific techs.

There are several levels of flavoured techs I'm thinking about.

- A tech can be specific to one civ, like "Kung-fu" that would allow building the Shaolin Temple, with autoproduction of unit. This tech should not be tradable. I can use a non-era tech "chinese" as prerequesite, so only China can built it.

- A tech can be specific to a group of civs, like "Christianism" that would allow the creation of Church and Cathedral (to make it different from a Mosquee if I want). Should this tech be tradable? If yes, a muslim country could become christian...

So my idea is to use "general techs", and "applied tech". General techs will be relatively expensive, and can be traded. "Applied tech" are inexpensive but not tradable, and require a general tech, and a non-era tech.

This way, "Christianism" could require the "Monotheism" general tech, and the "Christian non-era" tech.

As the number of building is limited, I should give "general techs" for building requirement (I cannot have a French church, English church, etc).

However, for units prerequesite, I could have as many techs as needed.


So, questions 1:
There are only 4 slots for the free techs (non-era).
So I could give each civ
- Civ specific tech "Chinese"
- Religious specific tech "Christian"
- Region specific tech "European"

What could be the 4th? I'm thinking I could use "Old world" and "new world tech".

This mean that the standard initial free techs would go.

I would also use a similar system for some modern units.

For instance, to decide if a civ can have nuclear subs or not, I will have a "nuclear power" and a "submarine" general techs (tradable, relatively expensive), and civ specific techs, like "Ohio class", requiring "nuclear power" and "submarine" and "American", or a "Kilo class", requiring "submarine" and "Russian", but not "nuclear power".

It can greatly increase the number of techs, but it can allow more customization between the civs I think.

I could even go further but I think it's not the place in an epic mod. I could make the "Kilo class" tradable, so only Russia could invent it, but then India could buy it to get its submarine (as it couldn't invent it alone).

So, questions 2: Do you think this idea of forcing a civ to trade is a good one? What happens if Russia is not available or refuse to trade? No sub for India :( ?

Last for now, I'm thinking about some cases, like the Aztec having no horse, or no iron weapons.

For iron, there are deposit in America, they just did not develop it. So Iron should not appear in Aztec land early.

First solution :
- Make two kinds of Iron, "old world" and "new world". The first one requires "Early Iron working", that requires the "old world" techs, and the second "late iron working" is available later (another era), and requires the "new world" tech. It works for Aztec
But it means if Europeans settle earlier in Aztec land, they will be able to spot their own iron, and use it to build it, but the "new world iron" will be visible only later. And will be useless.
So it doesn't seems right, at least for strategic resources. It could perhaps be useful for luxury resources, or bonus resources. Like only China can "discover" silk in the first era, the other civ can discover it in the second era.

Second solution:
- There is only one kind of Iron. However, "iron working" can be discovered only with "old world". But it is tradable. So the Aztec will be able to get iron working only from trade with a European civ.

Question 3: In that case, if I make iron working required for next era (for the European civ), will it be also required for Aztec (who cannot discover it, as it requires the "old world" non-era tech that they don't have? Or can they still move to the next era if they did not trade for the tech?

Also, if the Aztec civ is not able to trade the tech, there is the risk they arrive in the modern time with no iron, and are not able to build tanks.

Question 4:
Is the risk that this happen small enough to be used in game?

And now, feel free to debate the ideas. My goal being to have a tech tree that makes more sense for each civ.

Seems as though you have most of this considered and concluded for the most part.

Questions 1: Old World would be a good way to separate what you want some CIVs to have.

Questions 2: Ask yourself if the CIV would be able to build a unit if they could not trade for the Resource. Is the resource available in their area? IF the only way a CIV could gain a needed resource is to trade for it, then trading for it is the way to go even if it means "no sub for India". This is a reality... just because history shows that a CIV gained a resource from trade and was able to build something in particular doesn't mean that they Must be able to build it in a game unless you are trying to duplicate events in history. IF the Reality is that they had to trade to gain the Resource, then setting it as having to be gained from trade is the way to go because if the CIV had not traded for the Resource, they would not have been able to build the Unit.

Question 3: Set Iron Working as Not required for Era advancement.

Question 4: Is it that you want the Aztecs to have Iron or is it that you want to insure that they are able to Build Tanks in Modern Times? The Aztec tanks could require a different resource such as "Advanced Iron" or Titanium that appears with a future tech for them for example.

Do you want your Game to play out as it happened in history or do you want the factors that were a reality to be in your game that could have gone a different way if trade was not used?

Ask yourself if the CIV would be able to build a unit if they could not trade for the Resource. Is the resource available in their area? IF the only way a CIV could gain a needed resource is to trade for it, then trading for it is the way to go even if it means "no sub for India". This is a reality... just because history shows that a CIV gained a resource from trade and was able to build something in particular doesn't mean that they Must be able to build it in a game unless you are trying to duplicate events in history. IF the Reality is that they had to trade to gain the Resource, then setting it as having to be gained from trade is the way to go because if the CIV had not traded for the Resource, they would not have been able to build the Unit.

This work for a "European specific" tech for instance, were India could by "rifle" to any European civ, but if the tech is civ specific, like "Russian kilo class submarine", and India has to trade for it to get subs as they can't discover it on their own...
Suppose Russia was not there. Then India would have bought French or whatever country subs...



Question 3: Set Iron Working as Not required for Era advancement.

No, I want Iron Working to be required for Era advancement for civ that are allowed to discover it, but not required for Aztec, though they could still get it from trade, to unlock new units.


Question 4: Is it that you want the Aztecs to have Iron or is it that you want to insure that they are able to Build Tanks in Modern Times? The Aztec tanks could require a different resource such as "Advanced Iron" or Titanium that appears with a future tech for them for example.

I'd like the Aztec to eventually be able to have access to iron, but through trade.


Do you want your Game to play out as it happened in history or do you want the factors that were a reality to be in your game that could have gone a different way if trade was not used?
I'd like the game to be relatively close to history, while giving some options to the players to change it a bit.

A word of warning before you start developing the idea: you can't trade a tech between someone who can research a tech (have the preqs) and someone who can't. This means that, if Christianity were able to be traded as above, only those civs with the "Christianity" non-era tech would be able to research it, and only civs with "Christianity" non-era tech would be able to trade for it from a civilization who has already researched it.

A word of warning before you start developing the idea: you can't trade a tech between someone who can research a tech (have the preqs) and someone who can't. This means that, if Christianity were able to be traded as above, only those civs with the "Christianity" non-era tech would be able to research it, and only civs with "Christianity" non-era tech would be able to trade for it from a civilization who has already researched it.
Ah! That's this kind of info I was after.

IF the Aztecs could gain Iron Working from Trade, they will certainly gain it almost as soon as other CIVs that can research it do.
Not sure of the era you plan to start but if possible, you could provide Iron Working and the Resource to the CIVs you want to have it early and also set it to be researched by the Aztecs when you want. Set Iron Working Tech as none tradable and also as needed for Era Advancement. The CIVs you provide the Iron Working Tech from the start would be able to advance and the Aztecs would still have to research it, which would come later according to how you set it up for them.
Keep the Iron Resource on the Map with other CIVs but not directly with the Aztecs then the Aztecs will need to Trade for the Iron when they gain Iron Working.

IF you want the Aztecs to be able to Trade for Iron from other CIVs, they will be able to do so if the Resource can be traded.

Why not have it so that, like in real life, the Aztecs don't utilise Iron, but Obsidian? Historically they never used Iron, so it's valid if they don't get it, surely? :)

Yes for the first era, but how can they build tank when they reach the modern age? When they are no longer Aztec, but Mexican?

Aha, that is a valid point. Hmm... Perhaps then have them know of iron, just not use it?

Some random thoughts -

1. In my mod there is the ERA=NONE tech "Christianity"; later this acts as a precursor tech for building the Small Wonder "National Church".

2. Insofar as trading/changing religions goes, the best way I've found is to take the "Replaces All Improvements ..." away from industry and give it to principal religious improvements - which requires considerable re-examination of the power plants in an Epic game.

3. Re: Iron: why not give the Aztecs obsidian weapons units and not have them need to use iron to build anything until later on?

Best,

Oz

Some random thoughts -

1. In my mod there is the ERA=NONE tech "Christianity"; later this acts as a precursor tech for building the Small Wonder "National Church".

2. Insofar as trading/changing religions goes, the best way I've found is to take the "Replaces All Improvements ..." away from industry and give it to principal religious improvements - which requires considerable re-examination of the power plants in an Epic game.

I was thinking about something along this line, using the "replaces all.." for religious building, so you could have only one "main religion" in a city.


3. Re: Iron: why not give the Aztecs obsidian weapons units and not have them need to use iron to build anything until later on?

That's what I'm currently doing, but Aztec ends discovering many techs which are useless (iron working, horse back riding) to produce anything, until much later in the game, and it feels a bit strange.

So I was wondering if there was a solution to make them discover iron later.

For Iron, you can try the "duplicate resource gambit" (like Mustangs appearing after horses in the Canada mod) and, if need be, use identical, duplicate units each dependent upon a different "Iron".

Insofar as the techs themselves, having 2 different "Irons" (hm, obviously I suppose the same with Mustangs/Horses) means that the Aztecs can discover these after the other Civs have discovered the equivalent techs.

Besides, you've already added so many units to your mod that I can't imagine a few duplicates for the Aztecs will cause much pain. ;)

Best,

Oz

2. Insofar as trading/changing religions goes, the best way I've found is to take the "Replaces All Improvements ..." away from industry and give it to principal religious improvements - which requires considerable re-examination of the power plants in an Epic game.

Sorry to threadjack, but could you elaborate on this? My plan was to model state religions with a set of SWs with this flag, placing markers in all cities that allowed relgion-specific improvements. Unfortunately SWs can't place improvements, so I abandoned the idea.

For Iron, you can try the "duplicate resource gambit" (like Mustangs appearing after horses in the Canada mod) and, if need be, use identical, duplicate units each dependent upon a different "Iron".

Hmm... Perhaps...

Insofar as the techs themselves, having 2 different "Irons" (hm, obviously I suppose the same with Mustangs/Horses) means that the Aztecs can discover these after the other Civs have discovered the equivalent techs.

Yes, that may be the only way to really do it. I'll have to experiment a few things first.


Besides, you've already added so many units to your mod that I can't imagine a few duplicates for the Aztecs will cause much pain. ;)

I only have a few thousands!
But it takes a lot of time. On average, I need one month to flavourize one civ.


Sorry to threadjack, but could you elaborate on this? My plan was to model state religions with a set of SWs with this flag, placing markers in all cities that allowed relgion-specific improvements. Unfortunately SWs can't place improvements, so I abandoned the idea.

The way I would it, I'd create "church" improvment, with the "replace" flag, and a "mosquee" improvment.
Then you can decide if you want your religion to be christian or mosquee, but you can't have both at the same time.
Then you could make a "state religion" techs, that would allow the holly place, a small wonder, that would require enough "church" or "mosquee".
Let say 10 for instance.
So if you want to hav the "Christian Arch Cathedral", then you need to build 10 "churches", and it "forces" you to have an important christian religion.

Then you could make a "state religion" techs, that would allow the holly place, a small wonder, that would require enough "church" or "mosquee".
Let say 10 for instance.
So if you want to hav the "Christian Arch Cathedral", then you need to build 10 "churches", and it "forces" you to have an important christian religion.

I like that idea.

-O.