here we go

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posting in an epic thread :king:

Images are also mirrored here: http://cfc.croxis.net/gallery/v/genesis/

Edit: Check the next post before this one, #5 contains more info...

The red line indicates places where the capital would contain the fish if settled...

The signs are some city options based on settling the fish...

I believe that since we have expert fishermen, these places would be best.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=172991&stc=1&d=1207092686

As per the warlord's Master of the Hunts orders, I moved the warrior one tile NE.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=172993&stc=1&d=1207093997

I regret having missed the Genesis due to a family issue. Thanks to Shattered and the rest of you for catching us all up on the grandious event.

I think site one is the best cause A) its closest
b) we are still close to the river and can farm

Check post #5

Site 2 would give us the quick growth of fish, sea power, +1 useable resource (loss silks, pick up fish and dies), and a "wall for our backs"... Downsides are land useage, defence of hill and river are lost, Heath from river lost, no hydro plants in the future if we make it that far... So site 2 for quick gain, site one for long term... I'm leaning tward site 2

I leave the city location to Legion, its your home after all.

I would still recommend SEE, as it got 3 health bonii from food resources, 3 hills, makes better land usage as we do not know if we are island or continent yet (Fractal).

2 work boats can be built without delaying city growth right away, the city is scaleable, and it makes room for specialization in the other cities without restricting the potential of the capital. Remember that ocean and sea tiles generate plenty of business, foods etc.

i didn't think about that... We would waste a turn though :(

I perfer site 1 (SE) for the Pigs & Fish.

But also I note that site 2 precludes the possibility of a future infill city at the tribal village due south. We haven't explored the coast south of there and we would feel rather foolish if we built a city that resulted in the permenat non-workage of some sea resource we can't see at the moment.

There is a new site E of Site 1. Please check it out.

The blue circled site 1 looks pretty good. Grassland pigs are 6 food IIRC as well as another 6 food from the fish. You lose the silk but you gain the dye. A few more hills would've been nice but 3 ain't bad. Losing the river bonus hurts, though, but worth it in this situation.

And as provo points out, going east one more tile (where the Warrior is standing) will pickup the clams. Nothing wrong with more food. I don't like losing the dyes, though. And that 3rd hill won't be mineable until after IW. But still, not a bad spot at all.

I'd probably stick with site 1, though. There looks to be more land to the east of the clams. With all of that grassland in the capital, I'm thinking the clams might be better utilized on a city over in that direction. That and site 1 has more land tiles and less water than going east one more tile.

I don't like sites 2 and 3 at all.

One and a half hour between the creation and the first move sure allows for enough time for discussion and democracy.

My personal Analysis:

I agree with Site 1 being the best spot of what is known at the moment.

Resources: Fish, Pig, Dye.
Fish is the best shown resource atm cause when worked boosts worker/settler production pretty hard and adds 2 :commerce: to our science.
Pig gives same worker/settler production boost but only 1 :commerce: and requires AH tech.
Dye: Gives 1 :) and 1 extra :) with Theatre [tech req = Drama, leads to philosophy and the Liberalism beeline.]

Terrain:A lot of food, not much production.
Since we are Philosophical and not Financial i think we are somewhat 'pushed' towards a Specialist Economy and i see great potential for a Great Person Farm here. The 3 hills are a must to be worked to speed up just about everything, so i reckon Mining is a critical tech to research.
Two forests can be chopped after first culture pop, changing the base yield of that terrain from 2 :food: 1 :hammers: to 2 :food: 1 :commerce:

Techs and Building queue:
I've put these together since they are dependent on each other. As i see it, Mining is pretty critical for reasons stated above, however, if a Work Boat is the first production order in the city, followed by worker and/or settler, mining can wait
If a Worker is the first production order, Mining would definitely be my first choice, but i'm assuming a Workboat as first unit would be more efficient due to lack of Forest and not blocking city growth. So basically, tech choices are what the Prime Faction prioritizes:
-Early religion [Mysticism, Masonry, Polytheism, Monotheism (with Priesthood somewhere to start generating a Great Prophet from the Oracle and Priest specialists from Temples if we missed or chose not to build Stonehenge]
-Economy [Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Pottery]
-Science [Pottery, Writing]
-Military [Mining, Bronze Working, Hunting, Archery]
Let's not forget there's still a chance that we catch some tech in a goody hut..

[u]Second City:
Since we're Japan, AluminumKnight and his Protectors of Faith have final say on where it's settled.

NZL, I also posted some on the internal forum, on techs etc.

Good analysis,NZL.
But assuming site 1 and workboat build, perhaps mining still better
(followed or not by bronze working) because it belongs to the
military And economic paths, so more flexible). After mining, Agri
or BW, both will be open. And in while a worker has things to do.
Best regards,

Clearly, we need to let the city grow as we research things we can use right away after research. I much rather see an early settler than lots of miners as it stands.

Working Boat, Warrior, Scout, Settler (where original warrior becomes garrison in new city, and scout takes over further scouting with double speed movement).

Tech plan matching this would be : Hunting, Agriculture, Husbandry (for connecting pigs and for finding horses, possibly also for next city decisions). Agriculture is also prerequisite for pottery, I guess we need as we got plenty of food, but needs gold.

Settle in place for the forests and the +2 :health: from the river, the ability to build a levee later, and more riverside tiles.
A later city (on the forest/goodie hut) can take the fish & dyes.

dutchfire, we already have a :hammers: shortage, so i'd advice against settling on a hill where otherwise could've been a mine.

I like the settle in place strategy for a better long term situation. Settling on the coast potentially ruins two great city sites, and it takes our capital away from allot of excellent tiles for chopping, not to mention the health and defense benefits of the hill. Here is a ms paint outline of initial moves attached for your consideration. It's your call, but I like the hill by the river with all of those nice trees...We can chop those trees to pump settlers or whatever else we need quickly. I would tech for Bronze Working ASAP, chop some settlers and maybe even consider chopping Stonehenge and/or the Great Wall.

Future economic output of the settle in place strategy is just as good if not better than moving to the coast, especially if you consider the potential long term impacts of losing two good city spots.

The only access to the fish would become the far south ithmis... That isn't exactly an amazing city spot

We could even move to the grassland river to the west, then the potential city 3 could go on the hill jungle to one square west of my picture, but that's pushing it. Again, though, look at the screenshots. That finger of land to the south sits on a potentially excellent harbor, with obvious indications of workable land to the west of it. It could also be the site of our Statue National Wonder that gives every water tile one hammer.

I am a maverick though, and one can see many strategies to pursue from our start position. I personally think that it comes down to short term versus long term considerations. In the short term, the choice is obvious, go to the blue circle on one of the original screenshots. Get Pig, Fish, and a Dye and three hills.

BTW, I'm surprised that no one commented on the synergy between Japan and Alexander? Aggressive Samurai anyone? Unfortunately, the UB for Japan doesn't help us until much later in the game though.

dutchfire, we already have a :hammers: shortage, so i'd advice against settling on a hill where otherwise could've been a mine.

And moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers?

And moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers?

Good point :)

1 Southeast to get fish, pigs and coastal access. Warrior send off to take the hut. Might be some Hammer issues though

About settling in place: NOT a good idea IMO. We have fishing, which means settling on the coast allows us to build a workboat first, which is an awesome first build. It doesn't stop your growth, yet creates an improvement that provides a ton of food. Maybe settling in place would be a slightly better long, long term location, but I think the quicker production of workers and settlers with the fish and crabs provided by SE-E is a much larger advantage.

That finger of land to the south sits on a potentially excellent harbor, with obvious indications of workable land to the west of it. It could also be the site of our Statue National Wonder that gives every water tile one hammer.

I do not agree with your City 2 placement. To many sea tiles.

It is the ruling faction's decision. We are a tribe of many citizens with many different civ strategies. I hold no umbrage if the Triad follow a different path.

I do not agree with your City 2 placement. To many sea tiles.

That is as may be.

NZL, I also posted some on the internal forum, on techs etc.
I think the internal forums should be used for faction politics, not anything related to the game itself.

Surprised nobody has pointed out that we're mixing gameplay and roleplay when the plan was to have a separate forum for gameplay.

Moved

I would personally settle in place, the city is obviously not going to be a production city even if it was moved so settling on the hill is not going to really lose us that much whilst it gains us the river bonus and the forest for early chopping. Sure we lose the early growth bonus of the fish but the bonus of all the river around means that it will be a more than adequate cottage city in the future.

I dont think city2 should be city2 but it should definatly be a city placement in the future, probably upon researching calender.

Daveshack is right. I suggest we can still have the discussion about city placement, but in an RP way.

EDIT: Sorry just noticed that the topic already has been moved.

and i see great potential for a Great Person Farm here.If you want to make the capital a GP farm, then I would go with provo's suggestion of 1E of site 1 to grab all 3 food resources. You would probably also need to make caste system an early priority to truly make use of the resources.

Also Dutchfire and BCLG both make excellent arguments for settling in place. But I still think I prefer site 1.

But assuming site 1 and workboat build, perhaps mining still better:goodjob: I agree with fed here. Start a Workboat and begin researching Mining.

The biggest reason why I am not in favor of settling in place is that it is not coastal. We are on fractal so we may really need a coastal capital. By the time it comes into play, the fresh water bonus should be offset by the +2 health from a harbour. In the long run we will generate extra trade and can produce ocean units. This is enough to steer me away from settling in place.

We do not have as many trees in the fat cross, but I often find myself using chops in city two to make later settler or an early wonder rather than city 1.
City placement 1 has two chops, enough to get first settler off.

I am thinking workboat (warrior/worker), warrior, settler myself


I am intrigued by SE E though, it would make city 1 a GP farm. It gains 1 resource but loses some cottage or farmable tiles. I would like to hear more from people favoring this placement; convince me.


In terms of losing city spots. It is impossible to tell at this point but i do not see that SE is any worse than the other options. I worry about in place isolating the fish. SE E could be good to open up the forest to city 2 though..

I do not agree with your City 2 placement. To many sea tiles.

Sea tiles aren't that bad with a lighthouse (+Maoi statues + Colossus?)

Now that I come to think of it, it could be a nice place. I'm still with my mind in the pre-BTS period where we did not have Moai Statues and Dikes.

| still stand be south east, the fish and pigs and then farms and sea tiles with harbor with generate a lot of food, and with the dyes and sea tiles we will get alot commerce to. Also we need to build the M statues, espiacly since the warlords want a harbor military city.

There is a post somewhere deeeeeep in the archives of the war academy talking about timing workers for Bronze Working, then using your first worker to chop another one, and then you have a chopping party and bam, you have two cities good to go, plus with Slavery, you can get your workboat on that coastal city going ASAP, etc...

I see this as more of a personal choice really. Only time will tell what would have been the better choice.

If you look at it like this, settle in place when the city is fully developed gains us at least 5 more river tiles. Now if as were philosophical we aim for a slightly more SE than CE we need to cottage the capital intensly.
Thus them extra 5 river tiles when fully developed will give us what 5 base commerce compared to the 2 we get from the sea throughout the game, so already we're making less than what we'd want. 25 to 10
Then add in the modifiers +1 for printing press +2 for free speech so thats then 40 to 10.
Thats all without being in bearo, even if you add colossus its still nothing in comparison. And not including the extra hammers you gain from universal suffrage.

Whilst 'city 2' with a worked would be able to perform the early function of a GP farm and possibly crank out a couple of GS's- say one for philo one for paper or similar.

On the subject of producing units, by the time we are producing units en-masse in the later ages we'd have what, 3 hills on the coast- going to be fairly heavy going if we're planning on just using that. Whilst we might lose slighlty on having a harbour it wont be much if we can establish reasonable land routes.

And we need the commerce for upkeeping the Warlords army.

And we need the commerce for upkeeping your army.

The commerce from the river tiles, yes. A whisper on the wind

I actually meant the commerce from the coastal tiles.

Im confused- did my post not explicitly highlight how there was more commerce to be had in the original place?

The only real argument for moving is that we can get fish and therefore quicker growth initially which is sacrificing quite a bit in the long run.

Im confused- did my post not explicitly highlight how there was more commerce to be had in the original place?

The only real argument for moving is that we can get fish and therefore quicker growth initially which is sacrificing quite a bit in the long run.

I am totally with you. I thought that w00t was considering the coastal tiles and not the river tiles, which is why I said what I did.

There's more commerce to be had... eventually. There's so much more of an early advantage to be had with the coast spots (SE and SEE), that I think it's a no-brainer. With the huge amount of food, we can pump out an earlier settler to settle that river. We can cottage that city. If you REALLY love beaurocracy in that river city, switch the capital later on.

The advantage being 3+ food? even with eventually a cottage straight off the bat is going to be having 2 food 2 commerce, the equivalent to the coastal tiles. So the only bonus to moving is to gain the 3 food? as that is the only benefit to moving whilst we lose more workable tiles.

Another point is that we don't even know how much extra whatever we might gain from settling in place as we can only see without a border exp whereas we know the other settling point is not going to result in a very good city.

a minor point to make but a usefull early advantage to going 1 SE to start is that you can immediately use the river side hill tile it is 2f 1H 1 C, which is good. It obvously can not be used if you settle in place, with SE, E it can be used after first border pop (when the piggies can be used as well 3F 1C). This one Commerce is not a game breaker but is usefull.

My argument about 1 SE is not about final commerce power of the city but the flexibility that coastal provides, at to me very little cost. I feel sacrificing long term commerece power for flexability is good in a game with a highly variable starting conditions.

Settle where we are. It gives us river access, and the gold that comes with that, and it allows two decent cities to be made later on.

Like everyone else is saying joe, settling on hill, while may have defensive bonuss wastes a very valuable mine. We are going to need all the hammers we can get.

it can always be a filler city later. You wouldn't want your second city that close anyway, unless theres more hills, iron ex

@ballezic

Hardly anyone else is saying that...

i have heard a lot more sentiments that we shouldn't build on the hill versus building on the hill.

Someone needs to set up a prepoll

Like everyone else is saying joe, settling on hill, while may have defensive bonuss wastes a very valuable mine. We are going to need all the hammers we can get.

5 river tiles is hard not to want, pigs and silk, plus a awesome burearcry capital with cottages

if we move SE we could pump out those settlers even quicker to make your cottage bureaucracy capital (build palace in new city).

Whats the point in wasting all them hammers building another palace- we can just build more settlers with that.

Settling in place isn't a good move because it loses the fish permanently, at least for a worked tile. We have to either move toward the fish or away.

Settling in place isn't a good move because it loses the fish permanently, at least for a worked tile.Not necessarily. If you settle in place, a 2nd city on the goody hut should still grab the fish.

But that is not a good place for the 2nd city. Only for a filler city later in the game.

Defense arguement: I almost never build my cap on a hill for defense bonus' sake. My cap is defended enough to survive without the 25% of hills.

The forest arguement: If our capital will be a worker/settler pump early game, let's give our capital the fish [and pig later], and settle the second city in the forest and do a post-math chop for a wonder over there.

The river arguement: I'll use an arguement of the "pro settle in place camp" that say: Grab the fish later. Well, grab the river later..

And moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers?
Once you've chopped the forest you still have wasted the hammers from settling on the hill where u could otherwise build a mine. Moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers. It might even gain hammers because then we'll probably postpone tree chopping 'till after mathematics has been researched. Moving 1 SE gives access to pig AND fish, enough food to let city grow AND work the mines on the hills. Also: settling in place would be very unfortunate if a resource would pop up on that hill like bronze, iron, horses, ...

I agree with NZL, but as far as I know, resources don't pop up at your starting location.

Defense arguement: I almost never build my cap on a hill for defense bonus' sake. My cap is defended enough to survive without the 25% of hills.

Thats just a bonus and can help, you never know.

Once you've chopped the forest you still have wasted the hammers from settling on the hill where u could otherwise build a mine. Moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers. It might even gain hammers because then we'll probably postpone tree chopping 'till after mathematics has been researched. Moving 1 SE gives access to pig AND fish, enough food to let city grow AND work the mines on the hills. Also: settling in place would be very unfortunate if a resource would pop up on that hill like bronze, iron, horses, ...

But until the forest gets cut down there will be sufficent production o work with then once we strt chopping, we should have a dedicated production city. The cap should, in my opinion, always be a commercial city with cottages and five river side cottages plus pigs and silk, later on make a fine city that will grow well, and the chopping can be used to get vital buildings. Then once we get calender we can settle near the dyes, the position conroe said, which get fish and dyes and make yet another decent mid game commerical city.

I must say it again: I do think NZL is right. One more point:
Whatever cities' specialization made, for a long time capital is our only tool to make
anything.
With 1SE place, we get high food,3 hills for hammers,and commerce from palace,
seafood,river and dyes. That will be more than enough to drive our develop.
Best regards,

When does the Triad expect to make the decision? I think we've heard many opinions, and both sides have been very well argumented.

Looking at these cities 200-300 turns down the road is all fine and good, but we need to consider what the city is going to do for us in the next 20-50 turns as well. Settling the river MIGHT be a better spot for a capital long term, but we need that food right away (and it's easily obtainable since we have Fishing already). Again, like has been said a few times, we can settle the forest river later.

That hill where you could be building a mine gets you 3 base hammers, what the hell is the point? matured cottages in universal suffrage are going to get you more. By moving the capital we get 4 more tiles we can do nothing too and for the rest of the game all we will get is 2 food and 2 commerce.

edit- why do we need that food right away? we have pig within a border pop and who knows what else? where is this dramatic need for fish going to come from?

edit- why do we need that food right away? we have pig within a border pop and who knows what else? where is this dramatic need for fish going to come from?

Settler/worker pumping ;)

Fish gives 5 :food: [6 with Lighthouse] + 2 :commerce: for science <- pretty dramatically good tile

You CAN chop forests for that too, but then you don't have that many left for a wonder later on

That hill where you could be building a mine gets you 3 base hammers, what the hell is the point? matured cottages in universal suffrage are going to get you more. By moving the capital we get 4 more tiles we can do nothing too and for the rest of the game all we will get is 2 food and 2 commerce.

Matured cottages in universal suffrage are how many turns away? 3 base hammers (4 with rail, which will probably come BEFORE universal suffrage) for almost the entire game are what we get from that mine versus an advantage that we won't get until the game is all but over.

If we could run universal suffrage and get matured cottages within the first 30 turns then yes, you have a good point.

The capital won't need to worry about those 4 water tiles until a long time from now, and if it's that big of a deal, we can move the capital. Later in the game a palace build doesn't take very long.

As I've said 2 times already, looking far into the future is good, but the benefits immediately and in the near future need to be considered as well.

I plan to play the save tonight and end turn one. 2100 GMT. Hope to see you there :D

Quite and the benefits for the near future are the forests that can be chopped for workers and settlers and the hills we can mine for production of the settlers and workers. The main argument seems to be that the fish gets us 2 commerce and 5 food which we can use to build settlers and workers. But the hill tile still has the same ability to build the settlers and workers with the hills nearby but also in the future a much better city.

Palace build might not take that long in the future but it is still a waste of hammers when we don't need to it.

The benefits of right now are having more forest to chop to pump out workers/settlers plus the possibilities of other things which we can't see yet whilst the possibilities with the other tile is fish with a slightly earlier growth but in the long run wont make that much difference.

You keep going on about me looking into the future but civ is all about planning- we should really have an idea on how we want to win the game already.

Matured cottages in universal suffrage are how many turns away? 3 base hammers (4 with rail, which will probably come BEFORE universal suffrage) for almost the entire game are what we get from that mine versus an advantage that we won't get until the game is all but over.

If we could run universal suffrage and get matured cottages within the first 30 turns then yes, you have a good point.

The capital won't need to worry about those 4 water tiles until a long time from now, and if it's that big of a deal, we can move the capital. Later in the game a palace build doesn't take very long.

As I've said 2 times already, looking far into the future is good, but the benefits immediately and in the near future need to be considered as well.

Yes but a food ecconmy trends to max out very quickly, beyond civil service, you don't get any extra bonus until biology. Cottages will be slow off the ground but with bureacry then it will become a decent commerce city. Plus long term wise is the most important, what we do here, now will have a huge impact on the game, i just want to ensure that we have plenty of gold. the cap can only grow to size 5 before having to stop due to happy and health problems (would be eased a bit by calender), then what? Specialists, but then you can't build farms too easily around the city until civil service. The only tactic that works with a high growth city is slavery, but then why not use the huge chopping potential of the city on the hill. If you build cottages around the SE capital then you lose one gold per cottage as they are not on river tiles. It just doesn't add up. Why do we need two food resources when one (and pigs are the best farm animals) will do?

Settling in place is so obviously better than going towards the fish that I don't even want to bother explaining it anymore.

I agree with NZL, but as far as I know, resources don't pop up at your starting location.
Yes, resources can pop at the starting location, if they're the type of resource which is already there. The blue circles even seem to predict where something will pop up, when there are too few visible resources to justify the circle, though that's generally dismissed as an "AI cheats" wishful thinking type thing. I think it may be true that you'll never "discover a new source of" on a start location.

If you look at it like this, settle in place when the city is fully developed gains us at least 5 more river tiles. Now if as were philosophical we aim for a slightly more SE than CE we need to cottage the capital intensly.
Thus them extra 5 river tiles when fully developed will give us what 5 base commerce compared to the 2 we get from the sea throughout the game, so already we're making less than what we'd want. 25 to 10
Then add in the modifiers +1 for printing press +2 for free speech so thats then 40 to 10.
Thats all without being in bearo, even if you add colossus its still nothing in comparison. And not including the extra hammers you gain from universal suffrage.

Whilst 'city 2' with a worked would be able to perform the early function of a GP farm and possibly crank out a couple of GS's- say one for philo one for paper or similar.

On the subject of producing units, by the time we are producing units en-masse in the later ages we'd have what, 3 hills on the coast- going to be fairly heavy going if we're planning on just using that. Whilst we might lose slighlty on having a harbour it wont be much if we can establish reasonable land routes.

Free Speech and Bureaucracy are mutually exclusive. You assume we will be in those civics instead of Vassalage/Nationalism. Free Speech tends towards cultural victory, Bureaucracy only benefits one city. I'm sure our more warlike citizens would appreciate the extra support and exp of Vassalage, or the gunpowder army-raising capability of a draft in Nationalism (complete with happiness bonus from barracks and the espionage boost).

Moving 1 SE takes 1 grassland/forest, 1 silk/grassland/forest, 1 riverside grassland/forest, and 1 river corner plains/forest, and 3 unknown tiles out of the first city's radius. It gains 4 coast, 1 grassland, 1 dye/grassland, and 1 fish/coast...

We lose fresh water access, we gain an extra health from the fish, so health -1. Instead of adding one food to the river/hill, we add a hammer and a coin to the grassland the city is founded on... 1:food: + 1:health: vs 1:hammers: + 1:commerce: Moving 1 SE gains coastal access (ships, harbors, custom houses), effectively +1 extra :commerce: per trade route.

The fish can be connected faster than the pigs, and it won't stop growth in the process. The fish capital would benefit from a larger size earlier and therefore longer.

The silk and dye cancel each other out, and the forest on the silk will still be choppable for the cap. The same is true for the grassland exchange.

We have 3 unknowns, riverside forest/grassland, and river corner plains/forest vs 1 fish and 4 coast...

fish with workboats and lighthouse is 6 :food: 2 :commerce:
The riverside forest/grassland can be cottaged (2 :food: 6 :commerce:), farmed (4 :food: w/biology 1 :commerce:), lumbermilled (2 :food: 3 :hammers: 1 :commerce:), watermilled (2 :food: 2:hammers: 3:commerce:), or workshopped (1 :food: 3 :hammers:)

The fish can provide food for two specialists, so fish beats farm, fish beats lumbermill, fish beats watermill, fish beats workshop, and fish beats town without respect to civics.

3 unknowns 1 river corner plains/forest vs 4 coast....

Edit: Nevermind ><

As Arete has been founded in the 1SE spot, this discussion is a bit moot.

Wow, just looking back at Turn Uno. Wierd. :mischief: