On behalf of the Triad Coallition I want to point out how excited we are the game has started, and thank all those who have voted for us.

So Now we have the Start, and the warrior has been moved. This poll will show the public's postion on the start, not decide it. It may ,however, influence it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=172993&stc=1&d=1207093997

I have made some logical suggestions, if you have other ideas, please share them.

Glory to our nation!

This is an opinion poll, and not a decision poll. Just thought i would say that.

It's also pretty premature, normally we allow a good time for discussion before posting even an opinion poll.

The Genesis turn thread is discussing it, and you can discuss it here too.

I think it is fair enough they post an opinion poll, they are merely gauging what people think before discussions.

Sheesh - how about some discussion on this first?

Other - don't poll so fast.

-- Ravensfire

Haha, the final decision rests in the hands of the Philosophers. We just want to know what everyone's wants are now. If you want to discuss it, do it here then RF, instead of flaming the thread.

Need an option for "I'm not really sure". None of them really stick out.

Sheesh - how about some discussion on this first?

Other - don't poll so fast.

-- Ravensfire

No, discussion is just a conspiracy by the veteran conservative elite that tries to control the entire demogame :rolleyes:

Well there has been a discussion in the chat, the genenis turn topic and the Philosophers topic. Including this one would be suffice I'd say.

I would say 1SE, by sure (both Conroe and NZL made a good explanation about).
Excellent food (fish,pigs,lots of grass,irrigation) - and we are Philo - enough production
(3 hills) excellent commerce. Coastal,loses fresh water,but 2 health resources. And happy,
too.
Both peace and war ways are open.
Best regards,

I'm in favor of 1S 2E. Calendar resources aren't gonna do anything until, well, Calendar, so losing the Dyes is a non-issue. We get tons of food, which is perfect for a specialist city. It also leaves us with tons of options for other cities. We could settle on the coast south of the dyes for a nice seaside commerce city, or farther north to include the silk. If we go 1SE, we may be screwing ourselves out of a decent spot for a city west of the capital

I say 1 SE, for pigs, clams, fish, dyes and 3 hills. Plus we don't waste move, else, 1S2E sounds good aswell. Good point about us being Philo!

Haha, the final decision rests in the hands of the Philosophers. We just want to know what everyone's wants are now. If you want to discuss it, do it here then RF, instead of flaming the thread.

I beg your pardon? The post I've quoted is the only one flaming anyone here. My comment stands - a poll such as this without discussion is useless at best, misleading at worst. With this, people vote, THEN there's discussion and views change. The result is another poll, or massive vote switching. Either way, you will have chaos and complaints.

I await your apology.

-- Ravensfire

No, discussion is just a conspiracy by the veteran conservative elite that tries to control the entire demogame :rolleyes:
:lol:

My bad - I forgot that we're secretly in control of everything!

-- Ravensfire

I beg your pardon? The post I've quoted is the only one flaming anyone here. My comment stands - a poll such as this without discussion is useless at best, misleading at worst. With this, people vote, THEN there's discussion and views change. The result is another poll, or massive vote switching. Either way, you will have chaos and complaints.

I await your apology.

-- Ravensfire

Like I said, there are already 2 other discussions about this subject.

Settle in place. I discussed my reasoning already. Then again, not everyone likes chopping for production...

Like I said, there are already 2 other discussions about this subject.
Here's the thing - why wouldn't a discussion on something like this be in it's own thread? While not an absolutely critical decision, it's the first big decision we're going to make as a nation. Putting everying into a single thread with an obvious table makes it VERY easy for people that don't read every thread to find the information.

Personally, I glanced at the Creation thread, saw the screen shots and didn't go back. Likewise, the Philosophers thread is a completely non-obvious place for a discussion. So now we've got THREE places where discussion on this is happening - this thread, the creation thread and the Phil. thread. That's rather difficult to keep track of, you know?

If it's a big decision, EVERYONE is helped by creating a single thread for the discussion on that issue, let it go for a day or two, then think about a poll. The way it was done here makes it very difficult for more relaxed citizens to follow what's going on. And that has been one of the biggest complaints from previous DG's - that the information is minimal and scattered. This isn't a good way to make that better.

-- Ravensfire

Well it IS obvious that the discussion takes place in the Philosophers thread, because we are the Prime Faction! Other threads are there so the people know whats going on. I agree that the threads could be more organized.

Well it IS obvious that the discussion takes place in the Philosophers thread, because we are the Prime Faction! Other threads are there so the people know whats going on. I agree that the threads could be more organized.

I thought something called the triad won the elections, but I might be becoming delusional

I agree with raven on the clear discussion thread point. The main non role play discussion has been in a thread called Genesis, it should be renamed at this point. I did post a Role Play discussion thread on city placement. Pretty clear there, but it has been ignored by most. I will try to help make sure that proper threads are posted, but i am not around all the time, so I may miss some.

In terms of poll's being to early, as it is an opinion poll and note a vote, and anybody can make a poll. Anybody i feel can ask for opinions at any time. So I can see why people do not like it, but i do not think it should be a big deal. I do not see any subversive or underlying agenda behind the release time of this poll, simply enthusiasm to get the game going.

So lets work together and make this a good game

@ravensfire

There will be no repoll. I believe the plan of the Philosophers (who, although the Triad won the election, are completely in charge of their city, as my faction is in charge of where our city will go) is to get a general opinion of the community through this poll, get the opinion of their own faction by another poll, and then Shattered will make the decision. Simple enough to me. All of our discussion and votes could be ignored by him. There may be some chaos, but really, it's chaos that won't officially do anything.

See no evil...hear no evil...speak no evil...It's all opinion dynamics.

I am sorry, but why is that a poll and a disscussion at the same time? :confused: I haven't been on for a day and a hour, come back from Preston (don't ask) and suddenly there is a poll up and running. There have been some worrying comments by triad members about no repolls and that it's going to be their deicison not ours, which is in the rules but it's already starting to smell like elitism already.

This is all an opinion poll. We make the final decision, and we have to do it within the week, so we wanted the citizen's opinion. There is much discussion going on in other threads. This did come up quick, but I don't think it has a closing date. I would much rather see ideas and opinions than dissent, but I guess I can sympathize.

I am sorry, but why is that a poll and a disscussion at the same time? :confused: I haven't been on for a day and a hour, come back from Preston (don't ask) and suddenly there is a poll up and running. There have been some worrying comments by triad members about no repolls and that it's going to be their deicison not ours, which is in the rules but it's already starting to smell like elitism already.

Thats why there was an election. To see who would rule.

Thats why there was an election. To see who would rule.

Yes i know, i am not stupid and i thought that although the final word would always be the factions, they would at least take the concerns of their fellow citizens, i don't really see that yet., but this is what i was worried about, that there would be no rules concerning polls, i have yet to see who will next play the save and crucially we have no independent body that holds laws, not like now, where the prime faction controls everything, and will potentially use that in their favour. This is why we have rules, a judiciary, because without it absolute chaos ensures, not just the average amount we get.

Yes i know, i am not stupid and i thought that although the final word would always be the factions, they would at least take the concerns of their fellow citizens, i don't really see that yet., but this is what i was worried about, that there would be no rules concerning polls, i have yet to see who will next play the save and crucially we have no independent body that holds laws, not like now, where the prime faction controls everything, and will potentially use that in their favour. This is why we have rules, a judiciary, because without it absolute chaos ensures, not just the average amount we get.

We plan to set up a court-like system in the game, it's just hard to do that with no capital city. Defeats the whole purpose if we don't have a place to live. :D This isn't the last demogame, where we had a full 1900 era court system before we even existed. The rules will come as the game progresses.

Well, we all knew what we all voted for, and I assume that these voted against Faction ruleset, against Triad Faction and so on knew what they voted for. All ruling factions decide on the location of their own city, which was written in the platform. Less ideal for casual players that like to meddle with the game with no real interest for the integration of game, subgames and narrative roleplay based on civic, yes, but more ideal for those that sought a more vivid and interesting way to structure their game around landownership, historic development and several other reasons.

This is 4000 BC, remember, and most of us like the idea we play out that notion.

I say 1 SE, for pigs, clams, fish, dyes and 3 hills. Plus we don't waste move, else, 1S2E sounds good aswell. Good point about us being Philo!

Only 1S2E gets the clams, AND 3 hills as well. Much better solution for getting plenty of food for a great people city.

Yes i know, i am not stupid and i thought that although the final word would always be the factions, they would at least take the concerns of their fellow citizens, i don't really see that yet., but this is what i was worried about, that there would be no rules concerning polls, i have yet to see who will next play the save and crucially we have no independent body that holds laws, not like now, where the prime faction controls everything, and will potentially use that in their favour. This is why we have rules, a judiciary, because without it absolute chaos ensures, not just the average amount we get.

There is no absolute chaos, but we are working on absolute order, however, we are 4000 BC, so we got to earn our civil rights via technology development.

Fellow citizens will be listened to- a lot, but gone are the days with disruptive polls and repolls, biased judiciaries pretending to be unbiased and an unannounced group of players trading favors and votes. All conflicts, differences etc are all now in the open, so people know what is going on.

What do we want our capital to be? Production pump? Science center? Great people farm? I'd address that question first, then decide where to settle.

With that said, however, I'd settle in place. Usually the computer places the settler on a decent city location. A couple of the other spots mentioned are intriguing (particularly the one to the SE) but I'd rather have the trees & the fresh water bonus.

I think the plan is to use our capital as a GP farm once we get a few cities up.

Addressing the feeling that this poll came out to early, as they have been voiced by several people. Yes the poll did come out soon after the opening screen, but we also want the game to move along. The poll does not have an end date so you have no obligation to vote the first time you see it. I will repeat again the poll was put out there to see what the populace as a whole was feeling and both it, and the well thought out arguments that several have made in threads will be considered and cary weight. But the final decision does lie within the philosophers and ultimately with Shattered.

Civ is a good game because there is different paths to win and it belies the quality of the game that we have options. We may not make the decision that you prefer the most, but we will pick one that makes sense and one that is made in what is in our opinion for the good of our civ as a whole.


Some days I can get on the site maybe once, So I like for the poll to be available so I can look at what has been said so far and let my opinion be heard. I feel that the other participants in this game our responsable enough to wait on making a decision and listen to discussion to the length they feel like.

I think the plan is to use our capital as a GP farm once we get a few cities up.


if this is the case then for pure GP farm use SE E may be the best (SE second best).

I think SE has better early flexibility and more land, making it my proffered spot.


Honestly I am OK with in place to. Though I think it does not make roll play sense (why would we not go for thefish if we know fishing to start?).

Yes i know, i am not stupid and i thought that although the final word would always be the factions, they would at least take the concerns of their fellow citizens, i don't really see that yet., but this is what i was worried about, that there would be no rules concerning polls, i have yet to see who will next play the save and crucially we have no independent body that holds laws, not like now, where the prime faction controls everything, and will potentially use that in their favour. This is why we have rules, a judiciary, because without it absolute chaos ensures, not just the average amount we get.

Yup - that's what a few people wanted, and worked the system to get.

The people get what they voted for, however, and what they've gotten so far is minimal organization, chaos and lack of communication.

-- Ravensfire

Try to participate if you think the game is unorganized and chaotic. Yet, from what I've seen from you, your only having fun if your dissenting.

Try to participate if you think the game is unorganized and chaotic. Yet, from what I've seen from you, your only having fun if your dissenting.

:lol: Sure, Shattered. Sure.

Nope - Prime Faction's job is to run the game, and thus far, they've stumbled badly on the start. I'm in the role of the opposition, so dissention IS what I should be doing.

And no, thus far I'm not having much fun. And why? See the reasons I've posted. Provo's comment quite scared me, that he's wanting this DG only for the highly involved people. Sorry - that's not a DG I can enjoy.

Fear not, Shattered, your oh so kind words will not chase me off. Nor will the continual back-handed insults.

-- Ravensfire

KNOCK IT OFF PEOPLE!

Or I'll start my bloody own democracy game x.x

:lol: Sure, Shattered. Sure.

Nope - Prime Faction's job is to run the game, and thus far, they've stumbled badly on the start. I'm in the role of the opposition, so dissention IS what I should be doing.

And no, thus far I'm not having much fun. And why? See the reasons I've posted. Provo's comment quite scared me, that he's wanting this DG only for the highly involved people. Sorry - that's not a DG I can enjoy.

Fear not, Shattered, your oh so kind words will not chase me off. Nor will the continual back-handed insults.

-- Ravensfire

I do believe they are accomplishing the opening at a faster rate than the method you have proposed. I don't think they stumbled. You're just trying to rouse the rabble. It's not a requirement for the triad to discuss the first city placement with us, yet there are threads and this opinion poll to that affect. Best of all, with the recent activity they are near the top of the appropriate forums so that everyone may see them, and throw in their comments as they see fit.

(Besides, revolting from Despotism makes more sense when it doesn't work perfectly:))

Fear not, Shattered, your oh so kind words will not chase me off. Nor will the continual back-handed insults.

-- Ravensfire

I wasn't trying to scare you off. I was just dissenting against your dissention. :D

KNOCK IT OFF PEOPLE!

Or I'll start my bloody own democracy game x.x

I see your point Croxis. I shall try to avoid trading provocations with RF from now on.

I do believe they are accomplishing the opening at a faster rate than the method you have proposed. I don't think they stumbled. You're just trying to rouse the rabble. It's not a requirement for the triad to discuss the first city placement with us, yet there are threads and this opinion poll to that affect. Best of all, with the recent activity they are near the top of the appropriate forums so that everyone may see them, and throw in their comments as they see fit.

(Besides, revolting from Despotism makes more sense when it doesn't work perfectly:))

If we didn't involve the populace, it wouldn't be a demogame, just an election. We the Triad are just trying to do our part as the Prime Faction. This system we are playing is brand new and untried, so this will be a fun experience for us all.

My faction lost and I did not support the Triad in anyway, yet if Shattered and any of the other Triad leaders were to act in anything different than as despots, I'd be a bit upset. My understanding of this game is that we are supposed to abide by the civic we are in, so if the Triad started making this a democracy then I'd say they weren't playing within the spirit of the game.

The poll was a bad idea IMO, especially since it has no bearing. This should have just been a discussion, but I suspect some of it has to do with the fact it's finally starting. I also suspected this is how the first city would be decided from reading the Triad's platform. It said certain factions would get a specific city and to my understanding that means they have full say over everything regarding it.

Not everyone is a role-player and that's fine, but what I would really like to see is those individuals who disagree with our leaders instead be standing on the street corners, hidden in back alleys, and calling secret meetings discussing/plotting the downfall of the current [in general] tyrant.

As to the arguing, well this is a DG. Without the bickering it wouldn't be a DG. I disagree with a court system though, as it doesn't fit in with our current knowledge. Instead in my opinion the decision would be based on the current tyrant leader.

I agree with Methos here, 100 %. I also do think they are plotting for a shift in power, but they need more to go on, a real trend. So far, the bickering is more of a metagame nature, more about how the rules are played and what rights citizens do have. If the opposition roleplayed their content instead of flaming individual posters, they could have managed to gain some sympathy as well. The only real attacks on Triad I found funny and entertaining in any way, is Berties Blog on the early game as well as Timus inspired roleplay.

Of course it is despotism, its our civic. How do you manage to sell despotism as an ideology (among with 4 other starting civics), is challenging, but doable, without playing out a traditional 20th century fair democrat system. Faction Cities made such a concept real, and in a sense each city gets way more attention than a single governor can do it, as it involves more people than the normal household names that vote for each other.

Do not try to discredit the settle in place argument as a "metagame" issue. I do not agree with trading insults or flaming, etc...but just post based on the facts presented. There are really only two plausible scenarios. Settle in place or 1SE. As to these two arguments, people should only be posting opinions and not trying to squelch a position based on anything personal. Honestly, I don't take it personal when someone disagrees with me. If I'm wrong, I'll admit to it, but nor do I think anyone should be forced to agree with anyone out of principle or loyalty, etc...If you have a strong opinion, based on factual analysis, then so state it and defend it, but don't get all emotional about it.

The choice comes down to a personal preference, period. Both positions have healthy pros and an equal share of cons. Our game wont be ruined either way.

However, I would also like to state that the Triad should have more than enough information now to make the decision and let's get on with the game.

I appreciate the opportunity that the Triad has given me and others to be heard, but let's close this poll and make the move, etc...

KWP, I was not hinting at the location discussion, but the attempts of other players to make this poll the issue, not the location to choose. Personally I would like 1S2E, not SE or place, but people got different playing styles and preferences.

The key here was to air views on various location options, not to argue the political process. And you are right, Legion is to make the decision, an informed one, thanks to this discussion. Consider the poll more of a focus of attention for these discussions.

[QUOTE=Provolution;6677063]KWP, I was not hinting at the location discussion, but the attempts of other players to make this poll the issue...QUOTE]

Ah, well, then in that case I am with you.

My faction lost and I did not support the Triad in anyway, yet if Shattered and any of the other Triad leaders were to act in anything different than as despots, I'd be a bit upset. My understanding of this game is that we are supposed to abide by the civic we are in, so if the Triad started making this a democracy then I'd say they weren't playing within the spirit of the game.


How is it a democracy if the citizens do not get the final say. We, the Triad, are listening to what people have to say about the opening position, but the voice of the people is not the deciding factor. We will choose where to build the first city and it might not be backed by popular choice.

As I see it, the vote has no importance, but the reasons posted do have.
Leaders "must" look at these reasons, agree or disagree with, and thus
be helped to perform a better play.
And it seems that's what happened.
Best regards,

Yup - that's what a few people wanted, and worked the system to get.

The people get what they voted for, however, and what they've gotten so far is minimal organization, chaos and lack of communication.

I don't really see how that's a bad thing. The past DG's we had everything beaten down to an art which got rather boring after awhile. It reminds me a lot of the first Civ3 demogame. We are stumbling in a darkened room. Which is by no means a kindness to our feet, but damn is it exciting.

I don't really see the purpose of this poll. It's far to soon for any sane person to create a solid opinion.

Just an off-topic post about democracy in general (there's apperently no more reason to make on-topic posts, because what I say about the start won't be considered by our glorious leadership anyway)

The <name>s and <name2>s speak about "pure democracy" and "democracy" in general for the purpose of deceiving the people and concealing from them the bourgeois character of present-day democracy. Let the bourgeoisie continue to keep the entire apparatus of state power in their hands, let a handful of exploiters continue to use the former, bourgeois, state machine! Elections held in such circumstances are lauded by the bourgeoisie, for very good reasons, as being "free", "equal", "democratic" and "universal". These words are designed to conceal the truth, to conceal the fact that the means of production and political power remain in the hands of the exploiters, and that therefore real freedom and real equality for the exploited, that is, for the vast majority of the population, are out of the question. It is profitable and indispensable for the bourgeoisie to conceal from the people the bourgeois character of modern democracy, to picture it as democracy in general or "pure democracy", and the <name1>s and <name2>s, repeating this, in practice abandon the standpoint of the proletariat and side with the bourgeoisie

Who would agree with the statements expressed here?
(10 awesome points to anyone who knows who wrote this quote without using google, pm if you know :))
I deleted the two names in there by the way, to avoid easier guessing (though I doubt it would have helped anyone).

I guessed based on the presence of one word in the passage, and was on the right track.

Well it was Lenin... If you ever see Bourgeois and means of production in the same paragraph its one of three: marx, trotsky or Lenin. In that case it was Lenin.

It was him cracking on about 'Democracy' and Dictatorship.

edit- Perhaps that would have been harder for someone who wasn't a student of history thinking about it...

edit2- it may have been called Dictatorship and 'Democracy'

edit3- im going to go for my original guess.

Well then, I look forward to the research of Communism with awe.

I agree with Provo and say 1S 2E. Both are great sites, but Philosophers is a philosopher faction, and therefore should focus on philosophy not production. But, thats just my opinion.

Well it was Lenin... If you ever see Bourgeois and means of production in the same paragraph its one of three: marx, trotsky or Lenin. In that case it was Lenin.

It was him cracking on about 'Democracy' and Dictatorship.

edit- Perhaps that would have been harder for someone who wasn't a student of history thinking about it...

edit2- it may have been called Dictatorship and 'Democracy'

edit3- im going to go for my original guess.

I should have removed the word bourgeois too in a few places, but you're entirely correct :goodjob: