Okay everyone thanks for your imput so far.

I feel we are getting closer to an mutually agreeable time.

I now propose..

Saturday 3rd May GMT 11pm

This is BST 12pm
3pm (-8GMT)
7am (+8GMT) on sunday 4th of may
1am (+2GMT)

Is everyone ok with this? It will be a one off session so don't think you are agreeing to do this every week. I need 18 agreements before we can go ahead.

.....................

I can't make any commitments at this time for a Saturday session. Saturdays are family day for me.

Sunday??...... I guess that puts Classical Hero at midnight on the eve of a Monday morning.

Mali - Amask! A bit too early to miss whole turns :(

Okay everyone thanks for your imput so far.

I feel we are getting closer to an mutually agreeable time.

I now propose..

Saturday 3rd May GMT 11pm

This is BST 12pm
3pm (-8GMT)
7am (+8GMT) on sunday 4th of may
1am (+2GMT)

Is everyone ok with this? It will be a one off session so don't think you are agreeing to do this every week. I need 18 agreements before we can go ahead.

Close but if one person can't ake it that screws it all up ;)

GMT 11pm or later is good for me any day (including weekends) 4-5pm in the week also works (but not weekends). Bamf226 can't commit to a saturday (although that doesn't particularly mean it's out) so that would leave Sun but 11pm-12am might be a problem for Euros with work the next day so we'll have to see but you're right we're close.

if one person can't make it, they could consider letting a trusted friend subbing for them.

This would of course work better during some periods of the games better than others....

If we have it on a Saturday, the first option would likely be out. After having to get up weekdays at 5:30 AM local time, I need some sleep on Saturday mornings. The second time is more workable, but I'm not sure how long I could play being as it's around dinner time.

For May 3, I would not be able to play the second session because I am scheduled to be out of town that evening and possibly the afternoon. If anyone knows a reliable person that would fill in for me, I would be ok with creating a plan with that person. Most likely that person would do better than me anyway as I am not a pro by any means.

If we have it on a Saturday, the first option would likely be out. After having to get up weekdays at 5:30 AM local time, I need some sleep on Saturday mornings. The second time is more workable, but I'm not sure how long I could play being as it's around dinner time.

For May 3, I would not be able to play the second session because I am scheduled to be out of town that evening and possibly the afternoon. If anyone knows a reliable person that would fill in for me, I would be ok with creating a plan with that person. Most likely that person would do better than me anyway as I am not a pro by any means.

ok could you find a sub for may 3rd? michelangeloo has offered to sub earlier.

i see the game is full

i might sub if necessary

thanks for the offer. It may be you can help us soon.

hazaa everyone
I am currently without internet, for no reason at all (curse you Bell Canada), and I have no idea how long this will continue
I only have one friend who plays civ, but he's away at the moment, so I wanna ask if anyone can sub for me, for at most a week or two (I'll be moving pretty soon, and there's non-crappy internet service there), but probably just a couple more days

this happened once in winter, but they fixed w/e was wrong within a couple days, hopefully I'll be back soon

about the live session, I can't do April 30th through May12th, out of the country for that time
I don't know when my one and only civ-playing friend will be free during that time (or whether he'll even be willing to spend hours on a session for my little civ's sake), so I can't make any commitments just yet

for anything before that, first of all I doubt we'll be able to pull it off, there's only what, one weekend remaining (26,27 of April)
second, I am internetless, no idea for how long, if they don't fix it till then, I am quite sure I won't be able to participate (nor my friend, and I'm against letting a stranger run my civ during a live session)

if they do fix my internet, then I can play on sunday during gmt 2pm till gmt 6am (2am next day for me)
as for saturday, 2pm gmt till 8pm gmt

i'm really sorry for this, hopefully things will get fixed and we can get smth going next weekend
as someone said, this early in the game even an hour of live playing will save quite a bit of time

@ Amask

Oh sorry to hear you have connection problems. There was a guy who offered to sub on this thread 'michealangeloo'. Or I could I suppose.

Soryy guys i left to the mountains this weekend so i was on automoves.

i'll be away from Weds to Sat this coming week (but back in time for the session if it goes ahead on Sat asssuming it'll be 11pm GMT) Pex will be subbing me until Sat for the daily turns).

Portugal and Rome are now at WAR!!!

Portugal and Rome are now at WAR!!!

More details please - curious to see who attacked who :cry:

The sneaky Portugese stealthily approached the Glorious Roman Capital which was, at the time, empty of any garrison and I suppose they thought they were moving in for a quick kill and to destroy the Glorious Roman Empire in one swift move. But a garrison was in production and was created as the Portugese approached the gates of Rome.

Portugal now considers its options while encamped in the mountains outside of Rome.

Do we have confirmation from all 18 that a session will happen on May 3rd? If so I will begin looking for a replacement. I've not seen more than half the people respond that May 3rd is possible (maybe I miscounted).

Thanks for sharing that with us Ulfang, most interesting!

And I can make the session on the 3rd of May if we have one.

I can do it May 3.

There's a good chance I can make it.

Thumbs up :thumbsup: for May 3rd from me.

The sneaky Portugese stealthily approached the Glorius Roman Capital which was, at the time, empty of any garrison and I suppose they thought they were moving in for a quick kill and to destroy the Glorius Roman Empire in one swift move. But a garrison was in production and was created as the Portugese approached the gates of Rome.

Portugal now considers its options while encamped in the mountains outside of Rome.

Grand Vizier of Mehmed VI, Pexicus, is appalled by this sudden sneak attack and demands an immediate explanation from Portugal! :D

Will this be the beginning of whole Mediterranean sinking into turmoil and bloody struggle? Citizens of Istanbul are alarmed! :confused:

I can make May 3rd

I cannot either, May 10 or 11th for me

I can make 3rd May assuming it's still 11pm GMT

I can make 3rd May assuming it's still 11pm GMT


Ditto for me also

2300GMT, 3 May. Works for me.

I'm assuming thats actual GMT (not daylight savings shifted UK time or something)

2300GMT, 3 May. Works for me.

I'm assuming thats actual GMT (not daylight savings shifted UK time or something)

Good point that. I hate that daylight saving and can never remember when we are +1 etc. Think the UK is just standard GMT now but maybe we should post a link to a website we can all use to convert everyone's timezones just so we all know we all appear online at the same time rather than an hour later or earlier than everyone else. If one is missing it screws everything up.

Synchronise watches......

This is one I know of but someone might know of a better one....

http://www.timezoneconverter.com

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/ - seems nice and easy


also, I'm staying at my parents' for a while, till wednesday or thursday, when I go back to my place I'll know if they fixed the internet...
if they haven't I can't play may 3rd

Here's the one I use

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html

Good point that. I hate that daylight saving and can never remember when we are +1 etc. Think the UK is just standard GMT now but maybe we should post a link to a website we can all use to convert everyone's timezones just so we all know we all appear online at the same time rather than an hour later or earlier than everyone else. If one is missing it screws everything up.

Synchronise watches......

This is one I know of but someone might know of a better one....

http://www.timezoneconverter.com

The UK is now BST (British Summer Time) which is GMT +1.

Ok we have had a few nay sayers for may 3rd.

So how about Saturday May 10th GMT 11pm? (thats may 11th morning for australia)?

Ok we have had a few nay sayers for may 3rd.

So how about Saturday May 10th GMT 11pm? (thats may 11th morning for australia)?

That is OK with me

So how about Saturday May 10th GMT 11pm? (thats may 11th morning for australia)?

Thumbs up again from me.

So how about Saturday May 10th GMT 11pm? (thats may 11th morning for australia)?

Ok ........

Can do that

Thats OK with me too

sorry to be the party pooper but I can't do may 10th or 11th, I'm coming back to Canada on sunday 11th in the evening and (this is ridiculous) it's also my birthday so I'd rather not devote the night to civ

Ok we have had a few nay sayers for may 3rd.

So how about Saturday May 10th GMT 11pm? (thats may 11th morning for australia)?

This is too late for me. I'm GMT+2. (now GMT +3 summer)

ok well it looks like a session is not going to happen any time soon.

Zenspiderz, I think it's hopeless. One guy said he couldn't do weekends which sort of kills it anyway. These things have to be put in the start up thread and done then or not at all I suspect. You may get away with a group of 10 or less being able to organise something but 18 is pushing it. Even if everyone agreed the likelihood is that someone would not be able to make it due to an unforseen event and that kills it.

The game will appear to speed up once people start producing other units and get more towns. These first few turns are always slow.

I have just started another game which had an accelerated start - we all had about 600 points to spend so everyone has 3 or 4 tiny towns and a few workers and warriors. All I can say is it's horrible. Most of the free land is already taken and apart from most of us being backward it already feels like the 'early game' of expansion and exploration is over and we are in to the war and diplomacy era.

This way is much better and it will soon feel better too.

In hindsight it might have been better to have had shorter than 24 hour turns, say 12 hours, for the first 10 turns or so. You can set paths for your scout and so people could have stalled one turn in two without any real problems while their first 'build' was being produced. But its too late now. People will be starting to have extra units and that window is gone without harming peoples empires. But of course this means we will all have now (or soon) more to do in our turns.

I agree with hoplosternum here, we could easily have rolled 10 hour increments for the first 20 turns or so.

Also Ottoman Pexicus, you are moving ahead of us :)

Alot of people have no way able to cope with 12 hrs game and would not have signed up for the game if that was the case...

12 hour timer is impossible I agree

For the first 15-20 turns that is, when nothing is really happening, that was what I meant, so please don't arrest me.

It can be set for 16 hrs for next 10 turns for now on. But not less than this.

turn timer will stay at 20hrs

I agree with provolution though we could have gone with a 10hr timer for the first 15 to 20 turns. So maybe next time.

Good luck to you finding enough people that can play on a 10-12 hour cycle the first 20 turns. Some of us have to work you know. It would make more sense to have an accelerated start instead of a shorter timer.

The point was that you don't have to play all the turns in the early game although i think that is pretty silly as the early game is pretty important as well, so getting players with that sort of thing might be harder.

While it shocks me to agree with oyzar, there are plenty of times in the early game where you aren't just pressing <Enter>

Also Ottoman Pexicus, you are moving ahead of us :)

I can pretty much promise you I won't be among the top nations too long, with my mediocre strategy skills! :lol:

Good luck to you finding enough people that can play on a 10-12 hour cycle the first 20 turns. Some of us have to work you know. It would make more sense to have an accelerated start instead of a shorter timer.

That is what should have happened right at the start.

can't connect (and ping to zen times out), 5hrs remaining.

I got in fine.

I'll be gone this weekend. i have my moves set up

For the first 15-20 turns that is, when nothing is really happening, that was what I meant, so please don't arrest me.

Ok you aren't under arrest ... THIS time ;)

In a perfect world it would be great to be able to play a few turns a day but I agree with others that a 10-12 hr timer is impossible. With everyone being on different timescales a timer that short would only benefit certain people so obviously wouldn't be fair. The game can only be as quick as the slowest person and I don't mean slow as in purposely slow but slow as in when a person is able to get online in a 24 hr period.

This is where the session would be handy but as I mention previously I didn't think it would be very easy to set that up as everyone has to be onboard for it and the chances of everyone being able to be online at the same time with such different time zones can be very difficult. I'd still be up for a session but until everyone can agree on a time and a day it isn't going to happen. It would be great if we could manage to squeeze two turns a day in though. I think that could be done.

I'm pretty laid back so I can handle one turn a day. In my PBEM games it is usually one turn every 2-3 days so this Pitboss game is the fastest I'm playing ;)

There are other problems with sessions. It can be some incompatibilities with firewalls and other things. For example i could not connect while provolution was connected.

Also sometimes i get timeout while loading the game. And i need a second try to loggin.

Islam is already in, this early? :eek: Have I missed something here? :confused:

It is choose your own religion. I am assuming that someone got Meditation.

Yeah, congratulations Zen.

It is choose your own religion. I am assuming that someone got Meditation.

Dammit I got Med a few turns ago and didn't think about that. Although there's only Islam discovered so far. I don't really see the Holy Roman Islamic religion being an option ;)

Dammit I got Med a few turns ago and didn't think about that. Although there's only Islam discovered so far. I don't really see the Holy Roman Islamic religion being an option ;)

You researched meditation? That was brave since you are playing rome on a crowded map. If I were you I would have gone for a worker tech or military tech first. Actually how could you have gotten med without getting mysticism first? IIRC rome doesn't start with myst.

I always play with choose religions on and I thought it especially appropriate for this game. So players could choose religions vaguely associated with their civ. Naturally I chose Islam for Arabia although I don't have marble anywhere near me.

You researched meditation? That was brave since you are playing rome on a crowded map. If I were you I would have gone for a worker tech or military tech first. Actually how could you have gotten med without getting mysticism first? IIRC rome doesn't start with myst.

I always play with choose religions on and I thought it especially appropriate for this game. So players could choose religions vaguely associated with their civ. Naturally I chose Islam for Arabia although I don't have marble anywhere near me.

You can't expect everyone to play optimaly with a public game of this scale ;).

Ok you aren't under arrest ... THIS time ;)

In a perfect world it would be great to be able to play a few turns a day but I agree with others that a 10-12 hr timer is impossible. With everyone being on different timescales a timer that short would only benefit certain people so obviously wouldn't be fair. The game can only be as quick as the slowest person and I don't mean slow as in purposely slow but slow as in when a person is able to get online in a 24 hr period.



We all recognise that many of us cannot take two turns a day, or at least sign in every 12 hours. So if the timer was 12 hours people WOULD miss turns.

The point some of us were trying to make was that when you have only one unit you don't need to give it orders each turn. You can path it so that you only need to give it orders every other turn and still cover the same ground. Sure you miss diverting on to a hill now and then but the game would have gone at twice the pace for the first few turns. And there are no huts to pop and playing on earth everyone should know roughly where they are and the likely terrain.

But that time has long been passed now. People will have multiple units out so it's too late.

I have never felt the game was going too slowly and so never minded 24 hour turns. But many wanted a session (which I think is impossible to arrange now) to get the game moving suggesting not everyone was as happy with a slow start.

You researched meditation? That was brave since you are playing rome on a crowded map. If I were you I would have gone for a worker tech or military tech first. Actually how could you have gotten med without getting mysticism first? IIRC rome doesn't start with myst.

I always play with choose religions on and I thought it especially appropriate for this game. So players could choose religions vaguely associated with their civ. Naturally I chose Islam for Arabia although I don't have marble anywhere near me.

Oops I meant mysticism ;) And I don't play the game mathematically I just go with the flow. Enjoyment is the key for me ;) You'll find I make lots of illogical decisions :)



I have never felt the game was going too slowly and so never minded 24 hour turns. But many wanted a session (which I think is impossible to arrange now) to get the game moving suggesting not everyone was as happy with a slow start.

Interesting. That was exactly the point I was making. The game does feel slow but everyone understands that. I was more than happy to take part in a session I was merely pointing out it would be difficult to get everyone to agree. You can't keep all of the people happy all of the time. I understand both sides concerns. I'm on neither side!

And I don't play the game mathematically I just go with the flow. Enjoyment is the key for me ;) You'll find I make lots of illogical decisions :)

I'm with you there mate. I don't have excel tables, optimized research trees and probability calculations either! :goodjob:

I'm with you there mate. I don't have excel tables, optimized research trees and probability calculations either! :goodjob:

Hey I am not one of those kind of players either.

Glad to know there are others like me out there. The problem is, those that don't play like that usually lose to the players that do play like that. It really takes a lot of the fun out of the game when players do take the mathematical approach. For far too many people it's more about winning the game at all costs than having fun.

I find the game much more fun if played somewhere close to optimaly. I seldom use any sort of tools to play though. Once in a while i use the calculator or a basic spreadsheet for some starting position options but other than that i just do the calculations in my head(alot of things in civ is fairly simple stand alone after all). I find when people don't play to win to take alot of the fun out of the game personally ;).

No offense oyzar, but the number crunching mentality takes all the fun out of the game (at least for me). I'm pretty sure that everyone plays to win, else there would be no reason to play, but there has to be balance between fun and winning. If someone is winning because they have calculated every option in Civ 4 like a computer, then there is very little fun involved for those of us who prefer a more casual game. Those style players are better off playing against the computer or others that share that mentality because the rest of us won't provide much challenge. Maybe we should break games up into casual and hardcore so that people can play with an appropriate group mentality.

I don't have internet at my place right now (typing this from a library), so I won't be able to take my turn
it's just that some have expressed concern regarding my, well, slowness
I'll be back at my parents by tomorrow night, should be smooth from there

I will unvailable for 4 days from tomorow.

Zen.. can you delete all adrian users from the networks? I got my system reinstalled.

Sorry for the offtopic, but I wanted to ask if any of you is interested in the joining this PitBoss game: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176660&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

Currently there are 15/18 so 3 more empty spots available. I think it will be a great (GREAT) game. If someone enjoys heavy diplomacy, negotiations, much wars etc have a look. The game will be very different from what we are used to.

Thanks

btw .. for the sake of civstats who is gavmundo and asparux?

I'm pretty sure that everyone plays to win, else there would be no reason to play,


Actually I don't play to win! I play for the enjoyment. I prefer games with alliances generally where the alliance wins so I'm not really that bothered about actually winning as long as the game is fun :)

btw .. for the sake of civstats who is gavmundo?


That would be me :)

I did not leave this weekend so i'm available.
My playing mentality is to have fun.
All calculation if there is any i do in my head. I use strategic decisions and i like strong alliances that lasts.

@bamf226
You may allie against this palyers in order to win.

Asparux that would be me Zen. Sorry for the confusion :p

I use strategic decisions and i like strong alliances that lasts.



Agreed although alliances that don't last can be fun too. If anyone's played the excellent Charlemagne mod they'll know what I mean ;) Always fancied playing that as a multiplayer/PBEM game.

Actually one thing I've noticed from the Pitboss games that are playing there don't seem to be many MOD games in Pitboss? Is it difficult to run a mod as a Pitboss game? Such as Charlemagne, Rhye's and Fall etc...??

Couldn't log in. Kept getting a timeout error so will try again tomorrow morning ... well later in the morning as it's 3am already ;)

I think server is down. Zen is not logged on hamachi.

Please reload turn when you manage to get the game back up

I see the uploader is connected again, but I will not be able to take turn as I am at work. Zen please reload the turn.

Ok I have another question regarding diplomacy......

I thought the chat message option would work but I think that only works for people logged in at the same time. There is a message option on the diplomacy/trade screen but seems no message is received if there's nothing to trade so my question is if you can see another nation how is diplomacy to work? By PM via the forum? Is anyone bothered or are we making specific rules of when you can and can't contact someone.

I tested the chat message and trade message option today on the Ottomans but they didn't work. If you can see a nation on yoru map you should be able to enter diplomacy with them :)

You can use diplomacy option from civstat if you registered your civ...

OK sorry about the server being inaccessible. I assume an ISP problem. Unfortunatly when I checked on it I found that the turn was 3 hours from completion but had probably been inaccessible for 8 hours or more. Lots of you probably couldn't make your turn. Unfortunartly I haven't been savig the game regularly so the last save is the one I made when I noticed I was disconnected from the internet... oops sorry!

So if I reload the turn it will be at the same position as when I noticed it disconnected. So I am disinclined to reload the turn again as it won't help much. Everyone should have queued builds and research so I can't see that anyone has lost anything except a warrior move in not being able to connect. Am I wrong?

Rest assured I have learnt my lesson and from now on I will save the game every time I play my turn or am otherwise connected to internet. ok?

You can make manual saves if you like; but it's not all that helpful. If you find a problem where the game has shut down, just check civstats to see who the last player was to play the turn. When knowing that, you can find a recovery file with that player's name embedded in the file name. Just reload with that file and inform the player that he needs to repeat his turn.

Do we really need to reload?

Do we really need to reload?

Maybe you don't but I missed my turn and I am at war!

OK sorry about the server being inaccessible. I assume an ISP problem. Unfortunatly when I checked on it I found that the turn was 3 hours from completion but had probably been inaccessible for 8 hours or more. Lots of you probably couldn't make your turn. Unfortunartly I haven't been savig the game regularly so the last save is the one I made when I noticed I was disconnected from the internet... oops sorry!

So if I reload the turn it will be at the same position as when I noticed it disconnected. So I am disinclined to reload the turn again as it won't help much. Everyone should have queued builds and research so I can't see that anyone has lost anything except a warrior move in not being able to connect. Am I wrong?

Rest assured I have learnt my lesson and from now on I will save the game every time I play my turn or am otherwise connected to internet. ok?


Haven't you got autosave on??????????

You should find it in saves/pitboss/auto

ok Indiansmoke is at war. sorry I didn't realise. I will find the recovery file mentioned by whiplash and relaod that ok?

EDIT

Game reloaded beginning of 3425bc turn.

game is down.

I can't conect either.

OK sorry about the server being inaccessible. I assume an ISP problem. Unfortunatly when I checked on it I found that the turn was 3 hours from completion but had probably been inaccessible for 8 hours or more. Lots of you probably couldn't make your turn. Unfortunartly I haven't been savig the game regularly so the last save is the one I made when I noticed I was disconnected from the internet... oops sorry!

So if I reload the turn it will be at the same position as when I noticed it disconnected. So I am disinclined to reload the turn again as it won't help much. Everyone should have queued builds and research so I can't see that anyone has lost anything except a warrior move in not being able to connect. Am I wrong?

Rest assured I have learnt my lesson and from now on I will save the game every time I play my turn or am otherwise connected to internet. ok?

It's a learning process ;)

I can't connect at the moment either but will wait an hour or two and see if it's fixed. Can't be helped.

Yeah, make sure you fix that ISP problem asap, as it may ruin this game!

:(:(
Someone tell me exactly where they fail to connect.

As far as I can tell I now have connectivity. So I don't know why anyone can't connect.

Mine failt to connect. When I enter the password (game password not my password for the Romans) it tries continously to connect but can't until it times out just like it did when you were having the IPS problems. Maybe the rollback has created a problem? Assuming you've reverted to a previous save already? I tried to log in about 3 mins ago and was the same problem.

I think the problem might be with my hamachi networks. So I will delete the BTS-earth networks and make 2 new ones.

BTS-history (password - history)

AND

BTS-history1 (password - history)


Please join one of these two networks then log into directip using the same ip as before

EDIT - this hasn't fixed problem.

So game is temporarily frozen until connectivity issue is resolved

EDIT

Issue may now be fixed but I need someone to test by trying to connect.

Issue may now be fixed but I need someone to test by trying to connect.

Ottoman reporting; connecting via BTS-history works just fine for me.

Had to rejoin the Himatchi network but the original name BTS-earth didn't exist, used BTS-history as stated by Pexicus, but still connection timed out trying to log in the game. Is there perhaps a new network addy now?

Same as mikeyia. connection timed out. Also with BTS-history1

I could not connect...

Nor me....

pexicus can log in and yet it seems alot of the rest of you can't. :confused:

I must say I really do not know what to do... except perhaps ask if someone else could take over as host temporarily.

It took me several tries.

And from other games, browsing, etc, I get the idea the internet is kinda sick today. Random timeouts, lag, etc pretty much all day, no matter what I'm doing.

pexicus can log in and yet it seems alot of the rest of you can't. :confused:

I must say I really do not know what to do... except perhaps ask if someone else could take over as host temporarily.

Restarting the program or your computer often seems to help with pitboss..

NOGO!

Zen, maybe you should contact your ISP.

I managed to join BTS-history as a network and joined it (as BTS-earth didn't exist anymore) and tried to log in but get the same problem. Continiously tries to connect after entering the network password in direct connect menu so don't get as far as being able to select my Civ.

I'm also unable to connect.

Re saves - you should get an auto save every time somebody logs in from what I understand, maybe somebody who's run a game can point you to where they hide.

I'm the only one who managed to connect?

I'll try again today as soon as I get home, I'll test also the other hamachi network.

As far as I can tell problem must be with the ISP. I will call today to see what they can do. I live in a rural area and I have heard that someone has recently moved to our area who works from home and uses the internet VERY heavily to send very large files or something. It could be this fellow is hogging the limited bandwith we get out here. :(

Given my previous experience with ISPs I think the best solution would be for someone else to take over hosting. Please. It wouldn't be difficult to do. Game is on hold until then.

My experience is that getting hold of hosts is very difficult as anyone who would be willing to host games are already doing so and there are way too few games as it is so if you can't host odds are this game is as good as dead.

I'm the only one who managed to connect?

I'll try again today as soon as I get home, I'll test also the other hamachi network.

No banana. Now I'm getting timeout too, can't connect to game no matter which one hamachi net I use. :cry:

Ah well...

About the hosting part; I have plans to set up a permanent pitboss on my home linux box, but that'll be later during summer. No help to solve the current situation, I'm afraid.

My experience is that getting hold of hosts is very difficult as anyone who would be willing to host games are already doing so and there are way too few games as it is so if you can't host odds are this game is as good as dead.

Oyzar, don't be such a pessimist! :D;)

Zen are you sure is a ISP problem? Check firewall settings or anything that could be...

This is propably not isp problem, as already mentioned check firewall, router, open ports etc. Also reboot the hosting machine it could help.

It all happened on the back of the previous ISP problem. Could the save been screwing things up or doesn't it work like that (as I'm not exactly very technically minded when it comes to servers lol)

This is propably not isp problem, as already mentioned check firewall, router, open ports etc. Also reboot the hosting machine it could help.

Well I have done all these things and it hasn't helped. But I will keep fiddling with it until I get some results.

If you can't work your way out of it I can host it. When you feel that you are at a dead end e-mail the last save file to whiplashATwiDOTrrDOTcom.

Good initiative Whiplash, please keep us all posted.

If you can't work your way out of it I can host it. When you feel that you are at a dead end e-mail the last save file to whiplashATwiDOTrrDOTcom.

:) You are a life saver or at least a game saver.;)

I have done everything i can and with no result. so I have sent email to you with save file and game details. Thanks.

If fact everyone 3 cheers for whiplash!

Does this have anything to do with Hamachi? I just noticed that I am unable to join/find either network listed.

I'll load the game and have the server up this evening. I'm GMT-5.

I won't be using Hamachi. The IP will be posted once the server is up.

Yes a big thanks whiplash_CDC for doing this. :)

The game is up.:cool:

IP is 24.209.166.152

Note: If you kill the host you may kill the game.:lol:

Thanks Whiplash. I'll assume it's the same password to enter the game...

No rule: No declaring war on Whiplash for two turns ... sounds fair lol

Zen is now targettable ;)

Out of interest what was the benefit of Hamachi again? I know there was one but I've forgotten....??

Out of interest what was the benefit of Hamachi again? I know there was one but I've forgotten....??


If 2 players without their firewalls/routers configured correctly try to join the game at the same time, the game may hang at "connecting to peer".

Hamachi avoids that.

Ahhh so can we still use Hamachi or does it need to be configured via the host to work?

Note: If you kill the host you may kill the game.:lol:

Very subtle hint! :D

If 2 players without their firewalls/routers configured correctly try to join the game at the same time, the game may hang at "connecting to peer".

Happened to me just moments ago. Unable to connect peer Adrian. :confused:

yup, if whiplash would rejoin hamachi, it would give us an option. (he has to join for it to work).

Also, Civstats?

I don't think we need Hamachi as I don't run a router.

I needed to start a new instance of civstats:

http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=946

pw for registering leader is "earth" (what else would you expect?)

Civstats is great; but it's a little clunky when trying to restart something.

Happened to me just moments ago. Unable to connect peer Adrian. :confused:

I feel sorry. I have a router.
How i can map ports to civ4? I did not see any settings for connection where i can do it in civ4... if somebody know how i will set it...

Seems whiplash server is down... or he changed IP...

You just need to have open port 2056 so that the firewall allows connection via those ports. You need to do this for both your personal firewall and for the OS firewall also.

It looks like that i will need to re play my turn once the game is back up.

I don't think we need Hamachi as I don't run a router.

I needed to start a new instance of civstats:

http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=946

pw for registering leader is "earth" (what else would you expect?)

Civstats is great; but it's a little clunky when trying to restart something.

Maybe for you, but for others it might be simpler...

You just need to have open port 2056 so that the firewall allows connection via those ports. You need to do this for both your personal firewall and for the OS firewall also.

It looks like that i will need to re play my turn once the game is back up.

Thanks... i wil map 2056 port for my personal IP.
OS firewall is allowing Civ4 and BTS.
I do not have personal firewall.

Up now. Game was down 2 1/2 hours due to power cut.

Maybe for you, but for others it might be simpler...


heh, I figured out how to restart the old civstats. For now both are running.

Let only original civstat run only. Two are not needed and makes confusion.

I agree it is confusing having two differnt civstat addresses for the same game. I had removed myself from the first one and now I needed to remember the password again, but I thankfully remembered it.

Also thank to whiplash for hosting this game after Zen had problems.

BTW guys, if you want to open the ports on your own router, instructions (by router) are at

http://www.portforward.com/english/applications/port_forwarding/Civilization_IV/Civilization_IVindex.htm

Those instructions show every civ4 port, all you really need for pitboss is 2056, so you can skip the other ones. The other ports are for things like gamespy games.

Let only original civstat run only. Two are not needed and makes confusion.

okies!!!!!!

whiplash :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

Thanks for getting the game back on track!

Worked for me to, thanks.

The uploader is currently not connected, so stats might be out of date.

See http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=911

Erm Whiplash ... who are the Flazoom? It seems to be your nation ;)

Yes, I am the leader of the Flazoomerites.:)

Yes, I am the leader of the Flazoomerites.:)

Egyptian nation fell into anarchy? The citizens demanded a new government? ;)

:D

Adrian, any particular reason you didn't end turn? We just waited an extra 6 hours for time to expire after everyone had moved.

Annoucement!

India and Arabia have jointly declared war on persia! This is a pre-emptive defensive action aimed solely at preventing or at least delaying persia from developing immortals. This is not conquest. At such time as arabia has a defensive counter namely spearmen then arabia will withdraw from this war. The arabian people offer their sincerest apologies to the persian people for any inconvenience and hope that when this state of emergency is abated cordial relations will return. :cool:

This is not conquest.

Good, cause my capital is empty :eek:

oh, and I keep meaning to complain about having a starting spot with no trees, rivers, lakes or grass.

oh, and I keep meaning to complain about having a starting spot with no trees, rivers, lakes or grass.

Well you do have grass. and from what I can see quite a lot of decent resources. There are rivers and trees adjacent to your BFC. you can't have everything in your bfc. every start has advantages and disadvantages.

Good, cause my capital is empty :eek:

what happened to your warrior?

Every start in every random game has fresh water. Think thats my biggest complaint. Lack of water means no irrigation till I can bring it in from 5-6 tiles away with civil service.

My warrior is off covering my worker from Adrian. If you guys are gonna double-team me on turn 25, I might as well just quit.

Yes please Adrian try not to rush through you turn and not press enter.

Elkad you will be ok make a deal with them and enjoy the game. And this is not a random start its a earth map and you start where u are suppose to start mate.

except that zen modified the starts, some of them at least

how do you guys know adrian didn't lag out or smth?

and elkad, you gotta expect all sorts of diplomacy from humans, it's not like they're doubling you just for the hell of it, it's in-game reasons
there are ways out of situations like this

i hope you weren't serious about quitting

ahhh.... it is nice being an island nation ;) I am pretty likely guaranteed to survive until the modern era, at least.

@Elkad
Not pressing enter was simply a mistake. I done my moves in only one turn... sorry... I'm very busy with work in last period.
War was determined to investigate immortal danger... you are very close to me. You would offer me protective pact until now if you had peaceful interests.
It's India and Arabia interest in this war.
PM me if you have any objections at any time.

Well, not much point in sending PMs. I'm in an undefendable position (vs 2 players anyway), so either they keep their word about this "not being for conquest" or they don't.

Not like I have anything to offer for peace at this point.

NOTICE:

The server will be down for 1 hour Saturday AM for maintenance.

To Elkad

re: your start

Before I edited the map your start was much worse as I recall particurlary in terms of food. I added as much grassland as I thought I could without making the historically dry country look wrong. I added rice which incidently is historically accurate as Iranians do indeed grow rice in the north. It is modern irans staple food. I can't remember what else I gave you extra in terms of food but I can see you do at least have sheep and deer.

Not being able to build farms elsewhere is until civic service is NOT a game losing situation. I know because a year ago I played persia in SP on the UNEDITED version of the map which was EXREMELY food poor and I won.

Immediately adjacent to your BFC are all the things you are missing namely rivers and trees. This is not ooc you can build or conquor food richer cities elsewhere.

I don't remember if I start with horses in your BFC but I think you probably would as if the map didn't have it to start with I would have put it in becuase of your UU. And if you are playing persia with horses in your BFC you have nothing to complain about.

Re: Your current game situation

You could have anticipated the potential for you acquiring immortals before your neighbours had spears would provoke some preemptive pillaging and planned for that. There ARE things you could have done.

I have already thought of a way you could defeat our ability to prevent you getting horses to the capital.

Leaving your capital undefended is risky in the extreme on a crowded MP game. especially since your city is on a plains hill! 1 warrior fortified on a hill city with cultural defence will easily defeat 2 or more attacking warriors.

I made defense plans. I kept my warrior home (I've never been outside my own culture), and in a position to beat any solo invader back to my capital. I built a single worker and immediately switched to military, I just haven't finished a 2nd unit yet. If I'd left my worker uncovered, he'd be stolen now.

Regardless, its unfixable now. So either you keep your word about "not a war of conquest", or you don't.

Once war is declared i can do everything a war strategy means including capturing your capital.
I think this discussion should be done in private. So, please no more public post here.

Is civstats going to be going anytime soon for this game?

He reverted back to the original version

Thanks found it. Makes it a bit easier.

Announcement!

Erm persia is no more. My intention like India was merely to prevent immortals from destroying my civ and not to conqour but since persia has left his capital undefended and india is poised ready to take it I have no choice but to change my plans. I offer my regrets to the deposed persian king.

If you had only built a warrior before you built a worker, then not only would you be able to build immortals in complete security but you would also still be ruling you kingdom.

everyone rush teh arabian aggressorz while their valiant clubman armies are deployed elsewhere!

Quite an early exit I must say.

Well it is a wargame after all. It would be pretty boring if the game went full term without a war ;) I've been at war since turn one and can understand why. Purely a tactical decision from what I've seen .... with the enemy fortified on my Iron resource ;)

As for the civ stats reverting to the original ..... now that explains why I've not been receiving new turn reports as I unregsitered from that game lol

This is a pre-emptive defensive action aimed solely at preventing or at least delaying persia from developing immortals. This is not conquest.

Zen, that was just wrong to publicly state your actions and then go against that due to convenience. I hope you are ready to work alone as no one can trust you now.

if I understand the situation correctly, had elkad done the sane thing - defend the city instead of the worker, he wouldn't be dead
if his worker is defended, then zen and adrian can't really delay him from immortals, can they? - and that was the goal...

I wonder how many nations will make it to the modern age... I'm guessing 9 or so.

I do have quite a big handicap actually, I start on the rather dry deserty arabian pennisula, expansion west is blocked by egypt, expansion east by persia, north by ottomans, and south (east coast of africa) by water and the zulu. I will very likely be boxed in quite early. Also the one special resource I have in abundance (oil) is not available until very late in the game. In my situation knowledge of the map won't help me because the big advantage of knowing the map is knowing where the settlable islands are but my location is too far from any of them to help me. Also there are no goodie huts. Another thing it is a big map so after some time of playing I will have probably have forgotten where all the unrevealed resources are.

If you think that is not sufficient a handicap then how about I be the only civ that can't declare war for the first 40 turns (but anyone can declare war on me)?

QFT, 40 turns indeed, it became 25 turns :)

Understandably this dramatic turn of events has resulted in a storm of comment.

@ Bamf. Honestly I really didn't intend to conqour but when my warrior entered his territory his capital was undefended and on the turn that India was able to take his capital so was I. So if I didn't take his capital India would. We are allies but I would rather be the one to capture the worker parked there. Sorry if that seems dishonest to you. But I don't think ANY other player including elkad would have done any different in my shoes.

@ Provo. The no war for arabia for 40 turns was offered as a handicap but since no one seemed in favour and some said it was too big a handicap I didn't 'activate' it.

BTW - In a MP game once I was eliminated in turn 6!! :eek: Probably the fastest elimination ever.

if I understand the situation correctly, had elkad done the sane thing - defend the city instead of the worker, he wouldn't be dead
if his worker is defended, then zen and adrian can't really delay him from immortals, can they? - and that was the goal...

Go after the warrior and the worker. Goal accomplished.

In a game where there are no rules against very early waring this should be expected by everyone and as such planned for...

Understandably this dramatic turn of events has resulted in a storm of comment.

@ Bamf. Honestly I really didn't intend to conqour but when my warrior entered his territory his capital was undefended and on the turn that India was able to take his capital so was I. So if I didn't take his capital India would. We are allies but I would rather be the one to capture the worker parked there. Sorry if that seems dishonest to you. But I don't think ANY other player including elkad would have done any different in my shoes.


I don't fault you for taking it. I do fault you for making a grandiose post to EVERYONE claiming the intentions of you and India (or whoever it was). War is a part of the game as is conquest. But, to publicly state one thing and on the very next turn (or so it seemed) completely disregard such statements seems wrong to me. If anything needed to be said, I think it should have been done after the fact and not before.

oyzar, are you actually in this game? I've seen you post in the thread but don't remember seeing you in game.

Nope i am just chatting away... I am interested in how pitboss games in general work out though..

Not only did he break his word, he double-moved me to do it.

Had I gotten to make my move, my warrior would have made it back to my capital.

So the rest of you. Your game host double-moves in time of war.

Not sure what rules we have in this game. But a double move is normally grounds to restart that turn.

Purely a tactical decision from what I've seen .... with the enemy fortified on my Iron resource ;)


Minor correction, my friend, your resource is marble. ;) :D

I wasn't witnessing this dramatic early clash of three nations, but I consider double-moving against opponent during wartime - whether intentional or not - rather unsportsmanlike. :nono:

How is it a double move? I thought a double move was when you wait until last thing to play your turn and then on the new turn move immediately. On the turn I took your captial I moved at a later time than on the last turn.

So how is that a double move?

And I never gave my word that I was not going to take an undefended capital. And it is dishonest of you to imply that I did. I only stated my intention was to delay immortals and that did not intend conquest. But an undefended capital is quite another thing.

New turn
I move
You move (and declare war)
New turn
You move again (less than 2 hours after the new turn started), without giving me an opportunity to move.

You moved twice without giving me a chance to move inbetween, thus its a double-move.

it was a double move in that you only waited 2h after taking your first turn before taking the final game-ending-for-elkad turn
we didn't have any rules about this, but we should have
like giving a player 6-9 hours in the beginning of the next turn if he was the first to move during the last turn
a rule like that seems viable to me, as that leaves between 20-6=14 or 20-9=11 hours for you to still take your turn AFTER him
maybe not 11, but 14 hours should be doable for everyone, I don't think anyone here works 14 hour shifts or sleeps for 14 hours, so you'd be near a computer at least once within that time

anyway, I vote for a reload, since it WAS a double move (2h is usually not enough for a player to log on and see what changed since last time), and it DID have such a big impact on the game

give elkad a chance to move his warrior back to the capital if that's what he says he was going to do

also, I'll be away till monday evening, got moves queued up
if you do reload though, I think I'll have my warrior outside my capital (was chasing some evil animals)
chances are 1% that a barb will appear and kill me before monday when I get a chance to move him back
hopefully that doesn't happen

How is it a double move? I thought a double move was when you wait until last thing to play your turn and then on the new turn move immediately. On the turn I took your captial I moved at a later time than on the last turn.

So how is that a double move?



A double move is when you move twice without letting your opponent take a move. If you declared war and did not allow Elkad to move before your second move, you committed a double turn.

anyway, I vote for a reload, since it WAS a double move (2h is usually not enough for a player to log on and see what changed since last time), and it DID have such a big impact on the game

give elkad a chance to move his warrior back to the capital if that's what he says he was going to do

I vote for the reload as well. I don't know why Elkad WOULDN'T do what he said he was going to do. Just because zen said it wasn't a conquer move, I still wouldn't trust anyone in my territory with an unguarded capital.

Regardless of what Zen said, and if I trusted him, Adrian said Once war is declared i can do everything a war strategy means including capturing your capital. So if Adrian was inposition to take my capital as well (likely, and Zen said so), then I would have moved my warrior home for sure.

also, I'll be away till monday evening, got moves queued up
if you do reload though, I think I'll have my warrior outside my capital (was chasing some evil animals)
chances are 1% that a barb will appear and kill me before monday when I get a chance to move him back
hopefully that doesn't happen

Who are you in the game?
Also, what is the latest time you can play in the game before you leave?

I believe Amask=BS_Prophet of Mali. Moved after Zen this turn, so a reload would affect him (unless he's still here and can redo his moves)

Zen, that was just wrong to publicly state your actions and then go against that due to convenience. I hope you are ready to work alone as no one can trust you now.

I find the most sensible strategy when dealing with war/politics is simple ... trust no one ;)

I really think this so called "storm" is a bit over the top. This is a wargame. We are supposed to be playing the parts of nations who's only strategy should be to protect their own interests and develop their nation any way possible. It's great to be able to trust another nation but the reality is everyone wants to do the best for their nation and how you achieve that is upto you. If there's an opportunity to easily get rid of an opponent you take it. To not do so would be unwise in the long run.

In game terms there is wisdom in having a rule where no one can delcare war on each other for so many terms and if I remember rightly there is a way to setup the game where it's not possible to declare war for so many turns but that would have to be decided at the beginning of the game. One of the PBEM's I played didn't allow war for about 20 turns or something like that so assume there's the same option in a Pitboss game!?

Paranoia is often the best strategy.... trust no one, take your opportunities when they present themselves and don't take things personally. It is only a game ;)

re: double moves I didn't realise about this? I hadn't thought about it to be honest. I had assumed everyone's turns were silmultaneous not having really thought about it but guess that wouldn't make sense. Don't think there's anything that can be done about that though. When I log in I don't look who's taken their turn I just take mine if I can and if the game allows you to do a double move I don't see there's much anyone can do about it.

Minor correction, my friend, your resource is marble. ;) :D

Marble ... iron ... potato ... potatoe ;)

Misplaced trust didn't eliminate me. A double-move did.

Misplaced trust didn't eliminate me. A double-move did.

Well I didn't know anything about this double move thing till recently but surely having an undefended captial eliminated you? I understand your stance here but if there was any possibility of losing your capital whether by fair means or foul... if it was a possibility surely the best strategy is to err on the side of caution?

I would probably have supported the idea of so many turns before anyone could declare war in order to protect all players early on. Not realistic perhaps but as game mechanics go surely that would have been sensible but as it wasn't decided at the start there's not a lot that can be done.

I'm BS_Prophet of the glorious Mali
I think I'll still be around at 3pm

as for tracking double moves - civstats makes everything so much easier
it's evident that a lot of you don't use it, I can't comprehend why you wouldn't
just add the page to favourites, loads in no time
that way you also don't have to log in to check if a new turn is up, like so many people are doing (maybe not in this game, havne't been paying attention, but it happens a lot in general)

If the rules state "thou shalt make an effort to avoid double-moving during wartime", then double-moving someone is either
A) An accident. Reload to correct the error
B) Blatant Cheating. Reload to correct the issue

I dunno that we actually made an offical rule on double moves, but we had some discussion of it on the first couple pages and every other MP game I've been in has one.

Backstabbing, misinformation, deception are common strategies. There is no way these can be taken out of the game. Players just need to expect to be betrayed and prepare themselves.

The double move, on the other hand, is an exploit of the game mechanics. The turns are "simultaneous" as far as PitBoss is concerned; but in reality, they are sequential and the sequence depends upon the timing of players entering the game.

Most PitBoss games have a rule prohibiting a double move in wartime. We should have one.

I feel sorry for Elkad... but...
What i can say now after i was part of hostile actions is that Elkad prefers to defend his worker than retreat it. If the capital is empty you assume the risk.
I have two wariors for few turns... this mean eklad negleted military also... he took the risk of building first a worker.

I think more than 20 turns peace was enought for Persia. I could declare war from the beginning.

I do not agree double move rules.
Lets say is 5pm to me... if i have to wait 6 hrs i would have to play the turn at 11pm.
11pm is a very late hour for me and i ussually sleep at that time. The deepest sleep is between 11pm and 1 am ... staying awake after 11pm is not recommended by doctors.
In the morning i will wakeup and go to work/faculty. I do not mhave the time to play civ4.
I think letting 1-2 hours to play a turn for the other party is reasonable enough.
This is just a game!

I will still try to fit to majority.

You can see the unedited map by going to the download section and finding the Huge Earth map blank or something like that. That map is the basis of the the map we will be using but the terrian needs to be edited considerably to make it playable. I can't show the edited map until it is finished and it can't be finished until I all players have chosen their civs because the historical starting places require manual placement. But I don't see why you need to see the map to make a decision.

In addition to whiplash's comment on pitboss I would only add that on pitboss (usually) turns are played simultaneously not sequentially. This is much speedier than the PBEM style sequential turn but does open the up possiblity of players 'double moveing'. This is considered cheating especially in wartime.

This is post #48 on page three. The game host has clearly prohibited the use of a double move during wartime. The fact that host ends up being the violator of his own rule is rather amazing. Anyway, the way I read this is that a rule violation has ocurred and Eklad is entitled to a reload.

I was needing some time to do some system updates so I don't mind keeping this down until after the weekend. That would also allow Amask to get back in without missing turns.

We can use that time to sort this out.

The double move was not clearly defined.

My final decision is Ottomans. I will tell you the leader.
When i was playing civ3 online on gamespy in simulataneus turns double moving was NOT considered cheat. Good to know that this is considered cheat here... or is not an official rule?
What time delay to play turns is set in this game?... 24 h are kinda fast for me... i would prefer 48h.

You seem to have understood it when you posted this.

I suggest that this be resolved by consensus of the players not involved in the incident.

I suggest that this be resolved by consensus of the players not involved in the incident.

Fine by me

re: double moves I didn't realise about this? I hadn't thought about it to be honest. I had assumed everyone's turns were silmultaneous not having really thought about it but guess that wouldn't make sense. Don't think there's anything that can be done about that though. When I log in I don't look who's taken their turn I just take mine if I can and if the game allows you to do a double move I don't see there's much anyone can do about it.

Technically, there is no way to prevent it, but a written house rule would suffice. Most games specifically state that up front, but as a whole a double move is a known no-no.

Well I didn't know anything about this double move thing till recently but surely having an undefended captial eliminated you? I understand your stance here but if there was any possibility of losing your capital whether by fair means or foul... if it was a possibility surely the best strategy is to err on the side of caution?


The side of caution was never given. Elkad was under no immediate threat; once war was declared, zen got two moves before elkad could even react.

It's even worse with mounted units or ships. You can actually die before even seeing the enemy.

I do not agree double move rules.
Lets say is 5pm to me... if i have to wait 6 hrs i would have to play the turn at 11pm.
11pm is a very late hour for me and i ussually sleep at that time. The deepest sleep is between 11pm and 1 am ... staying awake after 11pm is not recommended by doctors.
In the morning i will wakeup and go to work/faculty. I do not mhave the time to play civ4.
I think letting 1-2 hours to play a turn for the other party is reasonable enough.


Your own example weakens your argument. What is 5pm for you is easily 1AM for another player. By your stance, if a person can't wake up to take his turn before your second, that is ok.

The timer is on 20 hours. You should be able to take your turn at the same time every day without a problem. Take your turn at 5 pm. Other person reacts. Calendar advances. Take your turn again at 5 pm.

If you hadn't noticed adyyc is involved in this. He is the India player who apparently is allied with Zen in a double team.

The side of caution was never given. Elkad was under no immediate threat; once war was declared, zen got two moves before elkad could even react.

Well but it was possible that someone could get there by a double move but the caution would be not to leave anything to chance. I've not had my captial undefended since my first warrior was built and wouldn't leave it undefended. As I said earlier this wouln't have been a problem if there was a set limit to when war could be declared but that should have been decided at the beginning. I don't think there should be any rules in war as there aren't any in real life.

This double move exploit is something specific to Pitboss (prior to this Game I've only played PBEM in the past which double moves can't happen of course) but if there is something exploitable it's pretty obvious someone will do it at some point.

I think if I was at war (which I am) I wouldn't be making sure someone had taken their turn prior to mine. It is a problem of course as it doesn't feel fair but it's not Zen's fault this exploit is possible but the Pitboss system. When Hitler invaded Belgium did he wait a bit to let the allies take their turn?? ;)

It's even worse with mounted units or ships. You can actually die before even seeing the enemy.

Don't get me wrong I do agree with you. It isn't fair and is a problem but it's a problem with the Pitboss system not a specific player. I'm not sure making "gentlemen's agreements" is going to work. If a player is in a desperate position or in any position when at war they are going to want to do everything to give them an advantage.

I agree that if someone has stated they will not do something and then do it then it's disappointing but then again this is war. It's not a system based on trust...

Furthermore if you receive an email saying that there's a new turn then it should be ok to play your turn rather than check if everyone has played there's. I thought that was the whole point of Pitboss being server based. So the turn can continue as quickly as possible.

You seem to have understood it when you posted this.

In MP civ3 double move was considered moving at end of turn 1 and at the beginning of turn 2 and was not considered cheat. It was a triky move for suprising and eliminating with mounted units.
I did understand by double move the above... I think Zen understood the same...

The side of caution was never given. Elkad was under no immediate threat; once war was declared, zen got two moves before elkad could even react.

I was the first who declared war on Persia a turn before Zen did... Persia did not protect his capital... also my warrior was just near empty capital (as zen warior was) before the eliminating turn... i could also take his capital like zen did....
Persia did risky moves, i do not doubt this...

OK, the game is down until we decide what to do.

I think if I was at war (which I am) I wouldn't be making sure someone had taken their turn prior to mine. It is a problem of course as it doesn't feel fair but it's not Zen's fault this exploit is possible but the Pitboss system. When Hitler invaded Belgium did he wait a bit to let the allies take their turn?? ;)

Just because there is a known exploit does not mean it should be used. Were this a tournament or the winner receiving some sort of prize, I don't know that I would be as vocal as I have been. But this is a game for fun. Anyone desperate to win should be playing in something a little more high stakes.

I agree I shouldn't have to wait for my opponent to take a turn. That's why most MP games refer to a 6-8 hour policy. This is not unfair as it takes into account all time zones. This seems to be completely lost in the discussion. We obviously can't all play at once. Expecting that a player can log into the game within two hours of the turn advancing is a bit much.

As best I can recall, Hitler (and any other leader starting a war) isn't playing a game. Ok, there's an exception to everything. *George W. Bush* ;)



Furthermore if you receive an email saying that there's a new turn then it should be ok to play your turn rather than check if everyone has played there's. I thought that was the whole point of Pitboss being server based. So the turn can continue as quickly as possible.

This is fine in periods without warfare. You are not effecting anyone else with your moves if you aren't at war. Once war starts, it should become a turn-based system between the opponents. Chess is a game of war. How many times do you get to move twice without the other person making a move in between?

I was the first who declared war on Persia a turn before Zen did... Persia did not protect his capital... also my warrior was just near empty capital (as zen warior was) before the eliminating turn... i could also take his capital like zen did....
Persia did risky moves, i do not doubt this...

Sounds like the two of you had it in for him regardless of what he had done. If he had a warrior in his capital, the two of you could have double teamed to take him out. Not only did Zen stab Elkad in the back, but he stabbed you as well.

a double turn rule is pretty much necessary in pitboss games, imo. Otherwise you have battles between people trying to get online right when the new turn starts, which is kind of silly.

It's one of the main reasons I play pitboss too, because in online games often you live or die by the double move... it becomes more FPSish(rushing to press keys) rather than turn-based strategy-ish.

So why are we wasting 3 days not playing? Just reload the game before P got killed and that is it. To wait on someone who is out of town makes no sence. Would you do that for me too?

Seriously lets go back to the game. W u are the host so make a decission and lets have fun.

Totally against holding up the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I agree Zen making a U turn on what he posted just couple of days ago here.

NO Double moves Please.

SO YES reload the game!

Since there seemed to of been no clear directive on double moves or even understanding of a double move by the original host I say we agree to disagree and adobt a no double move rule as of now, reload and get on with this game. Don't think Persia would last much longer anyways since being doubled up on.

I agree with bamf, this is meant to be a fun game and this is a well known exploit.

The double move issue is a well known issue with Pitboss. There are few good games that don't try and outlaw it as far as is possible. I've been in one where it was allowed and especially later on it is very unbalancing. Your whole game can be wrecked by a double move. Later on it gets worse, no one can permenantly garrisson everything well enough to fend off a double move from someone who knew what they were doing. And losing a city or two at the start of a war, especially if that has some vital war making commodity, is crippling. And don't think you can counter attack to recover from it. It will be razed....

There are two big exploits of the pitboss system that can happen in war time and both are usually considered illegal. And they are both due to the nature of Pitboss and so unique to it. Double moving (like in this case) and partial moving but not ending your turn. e.g. when you make moves (either offensive or defensive) before your opponent has a chance to respond to your last move but you don't end your turn. Then after his turn go back in and complete your turn. It's sort of like double moving but even stronger as you both double move your opponent and get to make some final adjustments after his move to attack or reposition again. The main advantage of Civstats is to track these abuses.

I appreciate, Zen, that you may not have been aware that what you were doing was considered an exploit by most Pitboss players. So lets just replay the turn. Misunderstandings will happen and are likely to again, but it can be easily sorted out in this case.

It doesn't leave you in a bad position. If you have an ally you should still be able to take him out without resorting to using tactics most people consider cheats. If you think his capital is too strong to take then you can at least stop him building Immortals and so neutralise him. So the war under it's original stated aim will probably succeed. Once you have a counter to Immortals you can either take him out or make peace.

And to Ulfang - yes this issue is due to the nature of Pitboss. While you could just "live with it" I think Pitboss would die off if no house rules of player conduct were followed. So most of us accept the need for a couple of house rules in return for the much faster game play that Pitboss gives over PBEM. It's not much of a restriction, you couldn't exploit PBEM or the AI like this so we are not taking away anyones favourite strategy.

And as Bamf says if you play at the same time every day it is unlikely that you ever need be inconvenienced by this as you won't be double moving anyone that way. And outside of war you can double move to your hearts content.

Voting for reload. Lets get on with it, folks. And everyone involved, shake hands, now. :D

There seems to be two definitions of double move here.

1. Waiting until the turn timer is nearly out, playing your turn then immediately after the new turn begins moving again.

2. Any out of sequence play.

Most of you seem to be using def 2.

I am more used to definition 1. But I am a MP noob and this is only the second game I have ever hosted, so what do I know?

BUT there is a HUGE problem with def 2 that most of you seem so keen on.

Player A plays his turn first then player B. Next turn. Player B logs on and finds Player A hasn't played his turn. Player B waits. Player B waits more. Player B waits a few hours more. His employer/wife/business partner/whatever calls asking why player B missed his appointement. Player doggedly waits on as his life dissapears down the tubes. 3 mins from the end of turn timer Player B succumbs to exhaustion and sleeps. Player A 1 min from turn timer end cheekily plays his turn....

Now that is just a big an exploit as anything.

If we reload because of this then we are stuck with a double move rule that allows the first mover to effectively prevent the later players from playing at all. And that STINKS.

PLEASE def 1 is only one that works. Elkad HAD plenty of opportunity to defend his capital and he passed it up. If nothing else he could have set auto moves then left his PC logged on to the game so when the turn timer flipped his warrior would reached base before anyone regardless of when he chose to play. More importantly he could left a permanent defence like the rest of us.

PLEASE def 1 is only one that works. Elkad HAD plenty of opportunity to defend his capital and he passed it up. If nothing else he could have set auto moves then left his PC logged on to the game

97 minutes is not "Plenty of opportunity" on a 24hr timer. Thats all the time you gave me to respond to your war move (the time when I couldn't move because my turn had already finished does not count).

Look at the rules on page one of basically every game here. All have double-move rules. None require you to wait 23hrs and 59 minutes, just to give the other player an opportunity. Generally half the timer (12hrs or so) would be considered just fine.

RE:leaving my game logged in.. :crazyeye:

I'm in 4 games currently. I'm in a war in 2, so which one do I choose to leave running? Any auto-move I would have made would have been based on being at war solely with Adrian anyway.

BUT there is a HUGE problem with def 2 that most of you seem so keen on.

Player A plays his turn first then player B. Next turn. Player B logs on and finds Player A hasn't played his turn. Player B waits. Player B waits more. Player B waits a few hours more. His employer/wife/business partner/whatever calls asking why player B missed his appointement. Player doggedly waits on as his life dissapears down the tubes. 3 mins from the end of turn timer Player B succumbs to exhaustion and sleeps. Player A 1 min from turn timer end cheekily plays his turn....

Now that is just a big an exploit as anything.

If we reload because of this then we are stuck with a double move rule that allows the first mover to effectively prevent the later players from playing at all. And that STINKS.



No I don't think this is correct.

When you are at war one of you is 'going first' and this should stay the same throughout the war. It is traditional on a 24 hour (or similar) timetable that the player going first gets usually the first 10 hours to take his turn. If he doesn't take his turn and the second player can't wait any longer then a double move is allowed. Most players can handle this, but if one or other cannot due to real life commitments then you talk to one another and try and work something out.

This has been done in many many games. The games which have problems are the ones which don't have such a rule not the ones that do.

It is easy to watch for via CivStats and so easy to enforce. There can of course be problems, especially if you wait until the last minute to declare war in a turn then your opponent does not login for 10 hours and you take advantage and take a double move. But most people don't try to cheat there way to victory like this and those that do get a reputation very quickly. And games which try and limit these exploits tend to be better than those that do not.

I think you are imagining problems will come if you set a no double move rule as a precident when in many many games that is not the case. Taking turns in order is a fundemental part of playing fair and with CivStats it's easy. No one is cheated. Of course people can still try and exploit the system. But it is fairly obvious when they are doing it and at least such house rules try to minimise it.

In MP civ3 double move was considered moving at end of turn 1 and at the beginning of turn 2 and was not considered cheat. It was a triky move for suprising and eliminating with mounted units.
I did understand by double move the above... I think Zen understood the same...

The DM in civ3 was as you describe, a well executed one was a thing of beauty but the big difference was that the defender in online play was always there & able to spot it & counter it if his preparation was sound. I remember many a time in the last seconds of a turn repeatedly scanning my borders looking for hostiles in the brutal environment of one city elimination. :old:

On the current situation it looks like a misunderstanding of the rule leading to a DM which needs to be corrected. Hoplosternum's explanation of how the 10 hour (half the clock) rule works sums it up nicely.

A reload should be in place for the double move. I suggest a full 24 h grace period for the attacked player to revise his strategy. Zen and Adrian both liked to handle double cheats in their previous posts, and I consider their posts binding.

I support a reload here.

I would like to see a reload also, but since he does have two attackers it is still possible for him to be defeated anyway but with him having having at least a chance of being able to defend himself. It is only fair that we do have a well defined DM rule, since we do have a rule of some sorts.

Also having a rule that states you cannot DM when declaring war for the whole turn is good since it gives your opponent time to prepare defence should their be a surprise declaration and the opponent is not able to defend in the given time since their guard is down and not expecting such an attack. This would be good so that the player is given time to play since he would still be going to play as if he is still in peace mode and is expecting to only to need within the timer and play at his normal time, rather than having to play earlier than normal.

Reload the GAME please - as we can see we have a majority.

Lets not waste anymore time please.

Ok I guess we better have a reload. I still don't think what I did qualifies as a double move for the reasons I stated earlier BUT i didn't clearly define what counts as a double move when I started this game. Sorry I am not more experience with MP; I didn't realise there were alternative definitions. So lets reload and adopt hoplosternum's definition of double move.

In war turns must be played sequentially, but if first mover does not play turn within 10hrs of the beginning of turn later movers may play anyway.

ok?

Well it doesn't really matter to me as I'm not involved in the war. I don't really think we need a reload as i still see this as the defending players fault but if the majority go for it then so be it. I'm still a little fuzzy on how the double moves happens despite reading all the posts on it. I need the very simple version. I didn't even know it was possible until yesterday. As I say I take my turn after I receive an emails saying a new turn has started. I'm not logged into the game for more than 5 mins so i'll continue as i have done taking my move when a tew turn is announced. I don't look who's taken their turn already and don't see that changing. I only log into the game once a day and that is trigerred when i get an email to tell me to do so :)

Ulfang, if you declare war on a person, you must give the opponent 10 hours to make a move (as posted by Zen). It is very easy to see who has moved either through CivStats or in-game. Look at the list of players. Those that have moved have an aserisk (*) next to their name. The way you are currently playing is fine as long as you are not in war.

I don't really know how to explain a double move any better than what has been posted. Maybe this will help:
Let's say you have already moved this turn and I declare war on you during my moves later in the turn. If the turn advances and I make my move against you before 10 hours has elapsed, I am committing a double move against you. I am taking two turns to your one. When you log in to take our turn, you could be very surprised that you are 1) at war and 2) missing a city because I took it before you even knew what was going on.

you move
I move, declare war
turn advances
I move again before you log in. wreak havoc on your territories (this is the double move)
you log in, say wtf happened?

It is a double move, unless the other player can move his side in between another players two sessions. If a player can play two sessions in a row, compared to the opposing player, it IS a double move, no argument there. This is a game, but even chess got rules.

It is a double move, unless the other player can move his side in between another players two sessions. If a player can play two sessions in a row, compared to the opposing player, it IS a double move, no argument there. This is a game, but even chess got rules.

Well elkad COULD have moved in between my moves. He just didn't. So which definitition of of a double move are you supporting please be clear.

2 hours is still too little, from my humble point of view. There should be a quarantine period between.

I suggest 18 hours between, due to time zone differentials.

Well i just know one thing the more the game is down the more we hurt this game!!!!!!!

Host please resume the game :mischief:

2 hours is still too little, from my humble point of view. There should be a quarantine period between.

I suggest 18 hours between, due to time zone differentials.

I support this point of view.

I'll put the game back up in about 12 hours.

Ulfang, if you declare war on a person, you must give the opponent 10 hours to make a move (as posted by Zen). It is very easy to see who has moved either through CivStats or in-game. Look at the list of players. Those that have moved have an aserisk (*) next to their name. The way you are currently playing is fine as long as you are not in war.

I don't really know how to explain a double move any better than what has been posted. Maybe this will help:
Let's say you have already moved this turn and I declare war on you during my moves later in the turn. If the turn advances and I make my move against you before 10 hours has elapsed, I am committing a double move against you. I am taking two turns to your one. When you log in to take our turn, you could be very surprised that you are 1) at war and 2) missing a city because I took it before you even knew what was going on.

you move
I move, declare war
turn advances
I move again before you log in. wreak havoc on your territories (this is the double move)
you log in, say wtf happened?

Yea I do understand the reasoning behind it. I didn't really make myself very clear. I understand that two moves were made before the player was able to respond what I mean't was I didn't realise Pitboss worked like that. I thought the point of Pitboss was because the game was live all the time it made the game much quicker to play than PBEM (assuming everyone plays their turns on time of course) I thought the timer was there to make sure people m