I want to open a formal thread for discussion of peoples opinions on what we should research, so people may post there opinions and ideas here.

Research path is partialy dependent on city placement, so it may be more general now and become more focused as a site is chosen.


I am thinking to start with mining to start regardless. It will allow us to build mines and is needed for BW (which as we all now opens up a bunch of options). After this my choice depends on city placement.

Mining is definitely the way to go gameplay-wise. We'll need those mines.

No man hunting is the way to go. We need a scout so we can use the warrior for defence and the scout will get better hut results. Also mining and agri can't be used yet. i don't think the worker is the first thing we will go for, its better to grow before you do that as it sucks food and halts growth.

Also hunting opens the door for husbandry which is key for development of our pigs

Agreed, beeline to AD to work those pigs.
This will also reveal if the are any horses nearby.

Yes, go for hunting, agriculture and husbandry, which also reveals horses.

EDIT: LOL, crossposted same idea.

I do not see the purpose of getting hunting, I would rather go to AH through through agriculture, as we can make farms, we have nothing to camp. I do not like building settlers early, I see it as a waste of resources. I just take my luck with warriors. I would say our first three techs are Mining, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry (I am not to concerned about order) and probably BW next.

good point, except with hunting we can have scouts

Advantages of Hunting:

1. Scouts (value of which is map specific: The larger the map, and the larger the starting land mass in particurlar, the more valuable they are). I could be wrong but this has the "feel" to me like we're in the middle of a landmass of substanial size.

2. Hunting is a pre-req for Archery.

3. Hunting is required for Camps. (So far at least N/A)

I think we should go for hunting first. We need scouts so we can bring our warrior back to the capital. Not to mention building a scout is faster than a warrior.

If you're building a workboat*, you'll probably discover mining AND hunting before it's finished because of the lack of hammers in city radius. But to make sure you can build a scout immediately after the workboat, you should start with hunting. And if you're building a scout after the workboat you might discover AH even before your worker is finished as 3rd production order.

* If city is built on 1 SE of settler spawn place ofcourse..

What do you mean we can't use mines right away?? We sure can. However, good points about Hunting. I like getting AH early as well, since BW isn't much use for awhile (unless we want to whip).

I think I'll leave this up to the Philosophers...

What do you mean we can't use mines right away?? We sure can. However, good points about Hunting. I like getting AH early as well, since BW isn't much use for awhile (unless we want to whip).

I think I'll leave this up to the Philosophers...

I'm saying:
The turns it requires to complete a workboat when settling 1 tile SE will be more than the turns to research hunting AND mining [since lack of :hammers:]. No need to discover mining first if we don't have a worker yet..
Then if u build a scout after the workboat, and only then a worker, we'll have hunting, mining AND animal husbandry discovered before our first worker is finished to actually use those techs...

EDIT: It might differ a couple of turns, i didn't actually check out how many turns it'll take for the workboat and the tech researching, but my experience tells me this..

I agree with NZL, plus, we are better off finding horses and bronze on the map before we plan several new cities.Working Boat, Scout, Worker, Warrior and then Settler will handle this issue nicely, as we have uncovered some resources by then.

Agree with Provolution.

Best regards,

What about mining first, and workboat followed by worker? The sooner the hammer situation is fixed, the better, and when hammer poor, they should all go to the most needed items only.

Hunting for a scout, AH for the piggies, and Mining for Mines would all be good bets

In the recent gameplay session we got both Agriculture and Animal Husbandry from goody huts!

We have horses 1 West of our capitol.

Ya so we are currently researching mines. We have hunting-agri-ah

I suggest we research bw after

We are very close to BW, please also toss in Writing, since we need "smart" border expansion.

I would say we need Pottery before writing, granaries are generally higher up the build queue than libraries. Whilst also allowing us to build cottages.

I'd even say we don't need BW for awhile as we've got the horses we don't need any defence as the AI isn't going to be attacking for a few thousand years at least so the only worry we have is barbs (are they on). The only bonus we would therefore get is being able to chop two forests and see where bronze is. Whilst alternatively we could get an early cottage on the go which would speed up the research for anything else after it.

Warlords decided on BW, regardless. Also have in mind we play out a quasi historical political simulation , so do not play this as an ordinary civ-game.

I would say we need Pottery before writing, granaries are generally higher up the build queue than libraries. Whilst also allowing us to build cottages.

I'd even say we don't need BW for awhile as we've got the horses we don't need any defence as the AI isn't going to be attacking for a few thousand years at least so the only worry we have is barbs (are they on). The only bonus we would therefore get is being able to chop two forests and see where bronze is. Whilst alternatively we could get an early cottage on the go which would speed up the research for anything else after it.

We have 8 forests that can be chopped (6 in which an escort might be handy)...

We intend to place a city by the river to benefit from all these forests and rivertiles, no worries. Protectors got quite a dilemma. Dyes south or river farther west.

We have 8 forests that can be chopped (6 in which an escort might be handy)...

I have noticed them but the culture wont be overtaking the rest of them for awhile and we may as well found a city there to get the full bonus from chopping them. Whilst in all likelyhood it will take awhile longer to get a settler out, whats the point in researching a tech we don't need atm when we can research a tech which will be useful in the nearer future.

edit- there is no real dilema at all, the dyes do nothing for us for the time being whislt a river has the forest and can be cottaged better.

interesting paths
Code of Laws (writing=14, mysticism=7, meditation=11, priesthood=9, CoL=48) total=89 turns
Alphabet (writing=14, alphabet=41) total=55 turns
Mathematics (writing=14, math=34) total=48 turns


Keep in mind that even though these research times are relative the totals do not reflect economic growth. i personally like the alphabet path, we have met 2 civs so far and neither are annoyed with us. Soon Hatshepsut will found a religion (which we can addopt and spread) and writing will open our borders with both leaders so relations should improve within the 3 Civs. We can then tech trade until the time comes to eradicate the Spanish and claim the Holy City for ourselves.

I think we need iron working ahead, so we are guaranteed Samurai later. We also need iron working for cutting jungles around us and we need it now as iron is a limited good. Iron Working is also with Sailing combo a future compass, something Arete will benefit from with a harbor.

Two posts moved from the tech information thread to a tech discussion thread.

Remember that we must reach Philosophy (which I believe was Shattered's plan) or CoL first to found our religion (which, I will remind you, was one of our goals from the beginning).

Well, let us head for CoL, the prereqs are Priesthood and Writing/Currency and Writing, so it is quite doable.

Yes, CoL provides our best opportunity to found a religion at this point.

Agreed with Code of Laws. I'm also thinking if we have a decent chance at getting Philo shortly thereafter (ideally founding in the same city), we should go for it.

I'm not so sure about following CoL with Philo. They do make nice trade material, but we will most likely have more pressing needs.

We certainly need to "unmap" both bronze and iron, to see what real military and resource options we have. We also need to get Calendar for all of the dyes we got (plantations).

I'm not so sure about following CoL with Philo. They do make nice trade material, but we will most likely have more pressing needs.

I think philosophy will only be researched if we don't found Confusianism

I agree with NZL here. Philosophy is only a runner up for religion on the priority list. Civil Service come before along with other techs.

philosophy

This is quite a good tech to trade, unless we go for the liberalism slingshot.

I agree with AluminiumKnight that we need to head down the religious line soon if we are to get a religion. I have also posted a reply on this issue in the RP discussion of techs, here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=270020).

Also, CoL seems a good tech to get both roleplay-wise (laws!) and gamplay-wise (courthouses!)

I would first make sure we got Iron Working (prerequisite for Samurai, among other things), then head directly for Code of Laws, possibly also via Writing and Currency, not the religious techs.

This is quite a good tech to trade, unless we go for the liberalism slingshot.

can also be researched by an easy to produce GS and seeing as general plan seems to be for an SE presumably philosophy will be one of the most vital techs going.

Yup, adopting a neighbour's religion and then capture Holy City seems more fun RP-wise [Crusade already mentioned somewhere]

The Protectors of Faith faction is more than willing to :ar15: Hatty to get our religion. After all, we are PROTECTORS, and we part of protecting is gaining something to protect :D

Well, we could decide to rip-off Hatty for a religious tech, but then again, I would much prefer to have some metal handy. Bronze and Iron is top priority under all circumstances, as these also represent a substantial amount of hammers, which play a part in city location.

We're on monarch right? We can take out our neighbours fairly easily seeing as we have horses and can always beeline towards cats if we don't have a metal.

Well, we do want metal anyways.

Samurai need Iron, and I feel like we'd be wasting a great UU if we didn't attempt to get it.

Samurai need Iron, and I feel like we'd be wasting a great UU if we didn't attempt to get it.

Yeah but theres no rush we dont have to get to IW first possibly to the detriment of the rest of our empire.

We got different opinions on the matter, and happily, the Prime Faction opinion will prevail. Writing, then iron.

We got different opinions on the matter, and happily, the Prime Faction opinion will prevail. Writing, then iron.

Quite but as this is the gameplay forum and not the role playing forum this is the place where things like that can be argued.

I still dont think, IMO, that IW would be the best to go for right now. The main objective on the Philosopher's is to get out 2 settlers for our allied factions. I know Provo wants IW so he can settle by a metal, but the Warlords will not have their city for some time, as the Protectors get the first one. Therefor, I think it is within our best interest to not immediately shoot for IW. We have time on our hands, and there are more important things.

Well, we got writing coming up too :) And in that instance, Math would be very helpful if we take the currency/writing route to code of law.
Otherwise, we need to research meditation and priesthood, which we could get from Spain anyways later.

Oh, I wasn't saying we need IW now, I was just saying that we should make IW high on our priority list so we avoid the dreaded no-iron scenario when we could be dominating with samurai.

I think someone here purposefully misunderstood our intentions, to make our initial plan look stupid, just to replace it with their "zerg-like" plan we had to embrace. But our point remains, we want Iron Working just prior to the conclusion of the third settler, so we can choose where we can settle, get the hammer bonus as well as gear towards mass production of military units.

I think someone here purposefully misunderstood our intentions, to make our initial plan look stupid, just to replace it with their "zerg-like" plan we had to embrace. But our point remains, we want Iron Working just prior to the conclusion of the third settler, so we can choose where we can settle, get the hammer bonus as well as gear towards mass production of military units.

:lol: understanding your intentions would be quite difficult, in one post you've managed to propose 4 or 5 different techs, though im curious as to what this zerg like plan is?

As long as my coalition partners and my faction members, and a couple of independents understand my intentions, I am quite fine with it.
We have been toying with some ideas back and forth, but the iron before 3rd settler is a constant, so better count with it.

As long as my coalition partners and my faction members, and a couple of independents understand my intentions, I am quite fine with it.
We have been toying with some ideas back and forth, but the iron before 3rd settler is a constant, so better count with it.

Quite but again, 'as this is the gameplay forum' this is where others can express their opinion, there is no need for you to think of it as a personal attack. As i've seen posts made by people in instances such as this before then i wont be put off it but if i had have been a new person to the demogame then congratulations the scared of the new person medal could be awarded.

We got different opinions on the matter, and happily, the Prime Faction opinion will prevail. Writing, then iron.

For being absolutely direct:

...And happily, the Prime Faction is a coalition, so that several opinions play in, one of them urging that we atleast try for an early religion. We can warmonger it from Hatshepshut if founding one ourselves fails. Since we already have BW to locate Copper aswell as we have horses in BFC, I think strategic resources play less of a part in techpath, and we can pursue an "early" religion without any significant losses.

I think gameplay should be understood as part of the bigger metagame and roleplay-experience, in order to provide advise. When someone settle, and where, is all a matter of preference and platform. A Warlord Faction, like ours, would of course prioritize iron for our city, as Faith would like religious buildings and a city wall for example, it is this area of politics I want you to see, in place of giving us tons of advise as if this was GOTM, HOF or a singleplayer game.

Well, we got writing coming up too And in that instance, Math would be very helpful if we take the currency/writing route to code of law.
Otherwise, we need to research meditation and priesthood, which we could get from Spain anyways later.

For not being direct

I think gameplay should be understood as part of the bigger metagame and roleplay-experience, in order to provide advise. When someone settle, and where, is all a matter of preference and platform. A Warlord Faction, like ours, would of course prioritize iron for our city, as Faith would like religious buildings and a city wall for example, it is this area of politics I want you to see, in place of giving us tons of advise as if this was GOTM, HOF or a singleplayer game.

I do appreciate that, which is why i havent ventured into the citizens forum as i don't particularly want to get bogged down in it and i do get that you being in a warlord faction= loves iron. Whilst i also understand that the dynamic in this demogame is to have rivaling factions and no-one to have control other than those in charge there has to be somewhere where views can be expressed relating to the game as awhole, otherwise in the future those who aren't in a leading faction/ independant/those not interested so much in the faction concept would begin to lose interest in the game.

Bah, you guys are confusing me with having the same avatar and all; I thought DiamondEye had double posted!

Remember people, this is the GAMEPLAY discussion of research. This is where we talk about ideal tech paths and such. If you want to make an argument on the basis of RP, there is a place for that. This also means that you can't attack people for recommending different techs.

Yes, my point was that the best way to go about it, is to find iron before we settle in place, since that is the only proper way to handle city placement of third city, as both copper and iron represents substantial production, much required for a future military city.

I would first make sure we got Iron Working (prerequisite for Samurai, among other things), then head directly for Code of Laws, possibly also via Writing and Currency, not the religious techs.

It's not critical to be the 1st to discover IW, where it is critical to be first to CoL. If there is iron within the range we would normally settle, then we'll settle it, and if it's not there we'll need to acquire it probably by force. And it will be some time before we can build Samurai. Since we have horses we can take the risk of not going to IW first even if we don't have copper. If we didn't have horses, and ended up with no copper, then we'd be forced to put IW first or face a tough climb.

I think gameplay should be understood as part of the bigger metagame and roleplay-experience, in order to provide advise. When someone settle, and where, is all a matter of preference and platform. A Warlord Faction, like ours, would of course prioritize iron for our city, as Faith would like religious buildings and a city wall for example, it is this area of politics I want you to see, in place of giving us tons of advise as if this was GOTM, HOF or a singleplayer game.

Ofcourse, but as it is understood that the second city will be Protectors', I would find it a good idea to get a religion founded in that city (read: before third city is settled). Afterwards, you can have your war toys :lol:

Bah, you guys are confusing me with having the same avatar and all; I thought DiamondEye had double posted!

That confuses me aswell - think of it like this; Provo has link in his Sig.

Remember people, this is the GAMEPLAY discussion of research. This is where we talk about ideal tech paths and such. If you want to make an argument on the basis of RP, there is a place for that. This also means that you can't attack people for recommending different techs.

I have linked to that discussion but it is, unfortunately, dead.

It's not critical to be the 1st to discover IW, where it is critical to be first to CoL. If there is iron within the range we would normally settle, then we'll settle it, and if it's not there we'll need to acquire it probably by force. And it will be some time before we can build Samurai. Since we have horses we can take the risk of not going to IW first even if we don't have copper. If we didn't have horses, and ended up with no copper, then we'd be forced to put IW first or face a tough climb.
:agree:

As Leader of the Warlord Faction, my only desire is Iron Working discovered before 2nd Settler is finished.
As a member of the Coalition, i fully understand AluminumKnight's desire to make our Civ's 2nd city a Holy one, even if we capture a holy city from Hatty or what not.
Therefor, i would advice a CoL beeline, followed by IW.

I am leaning to support Aluminum Knights idea to grab religion from Hatshepsut. Since she is likely to get one, and I do not like to coexist with her for too long, this could well be her farewell gift to us, a religion on our own.

Even with a CoL beeline, we may not get it, since we started out with a different set of techs and traits than what is really needed. I return the argument about iron. If we can get iron by conquest, why cant we get religion by conquest instead?

As Leader of the Warlord Faction, my only desire is Iron Working discovered before 2nd Settler is finished.
As a member of the Coalition, i fully understand AluminumKnight's desire to make our Civ's 2nd city a Holy one, even if we capture a holy city from Hatty or what not.
Therefor, i would advice a CoL beeline, followed by IW.

:agree:

I am leaning to support Aluminum Knights idea to grab religion from Hatshepsut. Since she is likely to get one, and I do not like to coexist with her for too long, this could well be her farewell gift to us, a religion on our own.

Even with a CoL beeline, we may not get it, since we started out with a different set of techs and traits than what is really needed. I return the argument about iron. If we can get iron by conquest, why cant we get religion by conquest instead?

Well, because we would prefer the religion to be founded in the Protectors' city, as well as it might be easier to roleplay if we found a religion than if we overtake it. That is not a problem for iron - your enemys is just as good as your own once you control it.

Also, IW does not guarantee us iron, whilst CoL guarantees us a religion, that is if manage to tech it first (which requires that we tech it sooner rather than later...!).

I agree that Hatty should be wiped, but I prefer that it will be pre-religion as religion will boost a city's defenses through :culture: (5/turn in holy city allows for an easy first and (second) border pop), second, if she manages to spread it we will either get :mad: in our own cities with the religion or bad relations with the other leaders of that faith.

I think focusing on COL should be our priority #1. It gets us a relgion and a very important building for expansion. It requires writting which is also good and sets us up for civil service which is good for our UU.

COL seems like the best option here.

CoL first, then look at IW.

-- Ravensfire

Now that we have to research Archery, I fear CoL is going to be out of reach. We don't even have Mysticism...

I think we can spare a few turns to research Mysticism while we are getting our cities set up, THEN research Archery to begin building Horse Archers.

Although I usually like rushing to COL it doesn’t make sense to me in this game. Given the nature of our land, our aggressive trait, and the proximity of Spain it seems to me that earlyish war is our destiny. Spain has a religion and a holy city, so defeating Spain gives us one of the major benefits of COL (a religion). I suggest beeline construction so we can get catapults and war elephants (the latter assumes we settle the northern copper city, which should be our priority). Cats and war elephants make a nice invasion force. (Throw in the odd spearman & axeman, too.)

We got library for cultural border AND science, so please spare me mysticism.

How do we pay for the cities after we take them? If we haven't researched CoL to build courthouses before maintenance kicks in, then we'll have no way to pay for researching it after.

1-2 cities is not a big number. Also, city distance is also a big no no for maintenance costs.

With all of your opinions on our city, Provolution, I am glad we decide where to put it. :)

Of course, you decide, Diamondeye and Faith brothers, I am merely stating my opinion, as you would have done if Warlords suggested bad city locations :)

Of course, you decide, Diamondeye and Faith brothers, I am merely stating my opinion, as you would have done if Warlords suggested (snip) city locations you did not like :)

And we're glad someone's doing so, that's the point of a demogame, not ? :crazyeye:

....

The extra couple tiles away isn't going to cause huge maintenence that bankrupts our empire. Surely the extra pop room on the happy cap and working the gold will make up for that.

Well, now I really want to research Iron Working earlier than later, as we may need swordsmen in the war as well.

Well, now I really want to research Iron Working earlier than later, as we may need swordsmen in the war as well.

After CoL, IW is fine with me.

I think the Confucian race is already lost.

We won't know if we don't try. ;) The mistake made by demogame 1 was flitting around instead of deciding on a specific goal and going for it. I really don't want us to make that mistake again.

My thoughts on this:

While going for COL and IW later certaintely doesn't guartinee us Confucisim, researching IW first does guartinee we won't get Confucism.

And the role play ones, one faction the religious one is supposed to run a religious city. If we don't get a religion ourselves, that faction would have to wait for the warlord faction to conquer a religious city for them, which may take quite awhile.

Ya, the philosophers is not racing for CoL right now, we want archery, probably IW after

We should be doing what is best overall.

Paganism is indeed a religion, which is what the Greeks and Romans had in the early stages of civilization until 400 AD or so. We can certainly roleplay with paganism as well, no worries there. Have faith my friends.

We should be doing what is best overall.

I believe CoL is a fine tech even without reliigon, and one ot get sooner rather than later. IW is less of priority when we have copper and no need for clearing jungles.

Have faith my friends.

:gripe::gripe::gripe:

With an imminent war coming up, we have to know where to find iron, who has it or not. It will define military balance, objectives and what we need to build. And, we do not "have" copper, its way inland, so we need to consider access to more immediate ores we can use right away. This will define how close we are to a war.

Where's the love for War Elephants???

Those require Construction etc etc, and is a long way ahead. We have a much more practical approach, and want to pinpoint where iron is to be located before we gamble everything on a long term objective. Then again, I am not from a nation of subprime loans, so how should I know?

Those require Construction etc etc, and is a long way ahead. We have a much more practical approach, and want to pinpoint where iron is to be located before we gamble everything on a long term objective. Then again, I am not from a nation of subprime loans, so how should I know?

Hahahaha! Tuce! (Tuche???)

I hear what you're saying. We'd have to get Math, then Construction. But we do already (or will soon enough anyway) have access to Elephants, via the future settlement of the Protector's city. We also have Horseback riding already. Ironworking is a crutch in the early game, my friend, especially when you have copper already and potentially also have access to Elephants with a CS of 2, lol, and you will want construction for Catapults too. Some CS 1 CR 1 Axemen could probably be enough to rush Hatty also if you're worried about timing. Granted, Swordsmen have more strength against cities, but what if we have no Iron??? We already have enough resources for an early era war.

There is also the question of getting Mysticism to help with the culture war front. It would be a quick stop to pick it up now, no? Either that or gamble for the CoL religion first? (Did I miss something or did Confucianism get founded already IAFAL?)

To be honest, I think Elephants and Samurai would be the best match in a war against Babylonia, whereas Horseman Archers and Swordsmen would be good against Spain.

I am not writing off the elephants, but for the interim, the military production will be SE, not NW. This is a faith city, and its going to produce some culture and science for a while, as well as defense, not be a specialized military city.

First out, we need a long road going there, possibly a city in between.

That would be funny to see a real life shot of Samurai riding next to War Elephants, lol!

I do concurr about the city in between, but that's for another thread ;)

Let's not forget that we know we have ivory and can easily learn the technology to build war elephants (and cats, which are practically a necessity for any war beyond an early rush). We don't know if we'll have access to iron; or if so, where it will be located. (Since our UU requires iron I think it's unlikely that it won't be somewhere close; but you never know.)

If we're going to war we should really plan to use what resources we know we have, not those we hope to have.

Iron Working will tell, shortly, then we plan around the resource picture we have until we get to coal in the far flung future.

Also, the elephants are too far away for a connect, if the elephants were close, it would be a different story. We know we got horses, and soon we will know about iron too.

You're not the one making the decision. Poll IW vs CoL, or it's rebellion time.

Um if your talking to provo, then yes your right, he is not making the decision.

But if you are talking to philosophers faction, then yes we are making the decision.

I suggest that it's an important enough issue that without a poll the "losing" side may call for rebellion no matter which course it taken, just to ensure it is polled by proxy. A poll would eliminate that possibility, since it would probably indicate the likely outcome of a rebellion as well.

Just advice of course, the philosophers are certainly free to choose to ignore it.

I also realized that "Meditation" and "Aesthetics" would allow us to build Statue of Zeus (Ivory, double speed) and Shdwehon Paya (Gold, double speed). The Paya allows us to choose religious civic at will without anarchy, something that would improve this game tremendously. For a wonder strategy in the Faith city, I would recommend this tech combo.

Actually, Provo, that's a good idea. But how would the Shwdehon Paya allow us to switch to a religious civic withoust rebellion? Doesn't it usually just allow all the religious civics? P.S. I usually play as a spiritual leader so anarchy is kind of a new thing for me. Daveshack, when is the poll going to be open?

Not my poll to open, the Philosophers need to decide whether they want the citizens input or not. ;)

I would appreciate a statement with what our research path will be (preferably public), especially considering I will be playing the save on Monday and will need to know what to do.

Um the Philosophers have always been all ears about big issues. The reason why I hesitate to set up an opinion poll is that ultimately it looks like something its not, a refrendum. The truth is that as a coalition we are the victors and so we told people how it was going to be run. The voter was aware that the philosopher faction would have private meetings and hold their decision making discussions as far as research. We value the opinions everyone, but do the nature of the games current style of government, we are not obligated to be populists.

Coming from the leader of the opposition this seems a little credulous. It looks more like an exscuse for mutiny and even if we did research Code of Laws ASAP are we honestly going to get confususciam when we haven't really done any of the religious research. Or are we such a big nation that we need court houses right now. I think its more the fact that when new civic options open up (such that with code of laws) the government will splitter and lead a possibilty of the opposition to take over. Now the independent may see the possibilty of the Government delaying that because we don't want to splinter. But the truth is we have concrete gameplay reasons to research other techs

Iron Working
We are planniing and preparing for an invasion of the spanish. While we are building cities and developing land is in the works we have a longterm goal to take them out. They will become an increasing cultural threat, and having them taken out would allow us to focus on other security threats more intensly. Not to mention we would adopt a religion and its holy city. Discovering iron well allow us to build cities near deposits and therefore also construct swordsmen.

Archery
It is getting increasingly risky to have our city(s) guarded by men with clubs, while the protectors are going after the bronze deposit, it will take along time for that to be usable and archers are better defenders anyways.

Mysticism
Not all of our cities have the time to build a library yet. Having the option to culture expand at one third of the cost is very critical as we are competing for resources and land and need the culture to back it up. It also opens the doors for later religious techs.

These are few techs that philosophers want to get soon, and see more benefit then a tech plan that soley allows one minority group to get a chance to be in power agian.

I will not be opening a poll, but their will be a discussion thread that i will open up and encourage all the philosophers to read.

Ballazic.
As a fellow philospher I agree with your general outline of our research goals.:)

I do not know if you were putting them in order of research, but i think Archery should be our next priority


I am interested instarting the discussion of where to go next. there are some usefull techs like pottery which we have not grabbed.

Assuming we start with
Archery- IW - Mediation

where would you go from here? Would you want to pick up pottery and mayube some of the religious techs? Goi straight to COL, or move along the Mathmatics Calender path?
I am undecided on this and though it may seem early to look at this. It sounds like the next two turnsets will come quickly so It would be good to start the coversation.

Quit the game, since we won't be able to win it? :rolleyes:

Quit the game, since we won't be able to win it? :rolleyes:

??????????????????????

I feel that if we don't research CoL now, we will lose.

Can you explain why?
specificaly is it not getting a religion
or
is it falling behind due to maintance cost
or
something else?

Both of the above, and researching deep gives an advantage when trading techs. We can't possibly research them all ourselves, can we? By researching the same things the AI's will be, we would come out of the first term (if it ever ends) with no advantage and possibly behind.

I think no can disagree that ultimatly we want to research deep, we want to get to civil service asap. But the thing is there is a balance. I could see us losing if we did it your way and not even research archery. But I think you have a really good point that we need to research deep, for the purposes of trading, math, currency meditation, priesthood, etc are all tech that are high priority. But I think as standing in Prime Faction leader (shattered is away) I just don't want to tie us down to a rigid plan. Archery is just one example where immidiete needs overide the needs of a longterm plan as we need to do well in the moment and survive it to make it to our Code of Laws

Why archery, why not IW, i value swordmens plus access to iron far more than archers (and horsearchers, the only time i have had a use for them is in multiplayer games)

We use the horsearchers is for several things

Pilaging- they can move and pillage and there high strength makes them tough to take out. If Hatty does not have copper (if she takes the near copper we pillage it first) she cannot make spears, her archers or chariots will lose to our Horse Archers. Swords and axes take the cities, Horse archers take everything else.

They also can serve as mop up attack units after they complete there pillaging roll.

Stack defense verses axemen if she has any.

Worker steal at onset of war. Horse archer can steal worker two tiles into enemy territory. Plant him on a hill at the boarder and move him in

Defense against barb or enemy Pilaging. We should keep a hoirse archer in our own lands to take out barbs or enemy units that come into our land before they can pillage our resources. They can take out warriors and archers in any terrian and axes and swords in most.

They also can serve as mop up attck units after they complete there pillaging roll.


Also archery is not a high price to pay for this unit. We got lucky that we poped the expensive tech. Horseback riding.

To not take advantage of horse archers would be just plain stupid. Archery is a must. As to deep research it is something I often do, but which I'm not sure I recommend. Going for the cheap technologies always keep your research ticking over, and all the AIs have different research preferences, so it is unlikely we will end up researching all the same things as the AI instead.

In summary, one expensive tech won't be worth a trade for five cheap techs we should have researched

Yeah, safest way right now would be Archery and Mysticism, as the majority suggested. Then consider what route to take next, when we are better informed.

Yeah, safest way right now would be Archery and Mysticism, as the majority suggested. Then consider what route to take next, when we are better informed.

As the majority of those who spoke suggested.

We don't know what the other 75% of the people who registered for the game think. There is no way for us to know because the normal method of finding out what casual players want isn't being used this game. :thumbsdown:

We don't know what the other 75% of the people who registered for the game think. There is no way for us to know because the normal method of finding out what casual players want isn't being used this game. :thumbsdown:

Last time a poll was posted about a Triad decision, it wasn't recieved too well IIRC...

EDIT: We knew this was going to be run as a Despotism when we elected the Triad, by the way. The whole point of doing the demogame this way was so that we aren't doing the whole 1900's-style democratic bearucracy starting in 4000 BC.

I think his opposition gambit is playing the wrong tune. Uncle Toms Hut Style rhetoric is a little bit premature in a dark era of Classical Age Despotism. To play the political correctness card may work after Representation Civic is enacted, but not necessarily before.

Until then, other mechanisms would be in the forefront.

Regardless, this game should be about everyone having the opportunity to have fun. A little despotism -- doesn't bother me. Clique mentality bothers me, a lot.

Anyone make an opion poll on research. If you want the opinion of the silent majority make the poll yourself and we will look at it, vote in it, and consider it.

The philospohers legfon is a bunch of geezers sitting on our buts talking to eachother. The wise one listens to the arguments and makes a decision. A thread discussion format actualy fits our faction very well, better so than a poll where many opine with no reasons behind it.

Yeah, he is perfectly free to come with all the proposals he want, poll what he want and even make rebellion if he wants to take over the Prime Faction.

Agreeing with DaveShack 100%.

CoL is a nice tech, because all we need is Mysticism, Writing, and CoL, if I'm not mistaken.

The Warlord way gets on my nerves sometimes because the whole game is not about war. There is a possible way to WIN with religion; AP Diplomatic Victory! We don't have to conquer Hatty right this second. Code of Laws seems like common sense.

Also, if we capture Hatty's Holy City, and make her religion ours, then the Faith city won't be a Holy one, which, to me, makes no sense.

Agreeing with DaveShack 100%.

CoL is a nice tech, because all we need is Mysticism, Writing, and CoL, if I'm not mistaken.


CoL hardcoded prereqs:
Either Currency or Priesthood, must be researched, as well as Writing

Correct, beat me to the answer... :)

Either earlier in this thread or the other one, I posted how long it will take going the quick way, and assuming no growth in research. Obviously it will be faster than that estimate. Something like 30 turns, perhaps less.

Hmm, perhaps we can take Archery AND get to CoL first? The founding of our second city should speed up research, shouldn't it?

Yeah, he is perfectly free to come with all the proposals he want, poll what he want and even make rebellion if he wants to take over the Prime Faction.

Let me make myself perfectly clear on something.

I'm not here to run the game, or try to take it over. I work 60 hour weeks in a technical leadership position, play with my two children, volunteer as a coach and board member for soccer, volunteer at the schools to help with field trips, and play civ in my extremely limited free time.

I'm here to give advice to the people who are running the game.

I'm not arguing CoL to get my way, I'm arguing it to advocate an informed decision which agrees with how the most people want the game to go. Big picture items like this are essential to get right, not just from the game play aspect and the role play aspect, but from the interpersonal aspect. Sooner or later, when one of us active players needs a month off due to RL, someone has to fill our shoes. A key problem in previous games has been that we get lots of excitement and 50-100 people show up, but by the 2nd month we're down to 20 actives. Maybe 10 or less will be left by the 8th month.

Do we poll every decision? Of course not -- that led to a lack of people wanting leadership roles. Only the biggest, most critical issues should get polled, even when we adopt universal suffrage! And the leaders should not be so hung up on our civic and their positions that they are afraid to ask the people what they want, and go along with it.

Myself, for COL Confucism I was thinking more along the lines of the Currency branch than the Priesthood branch since that's my normal path to it. (Granted I normally don't actually succeed in geting it first but usually have succeded in getting one or two earlier religions)

But then again I wasn't thinking about an early war being likely. If we're planning a war, we need at a minimum Archers + any combo of (Chariots / Axes / Swords) sufficent to take the cities we want. Since our UU is an improved Axe, that unit would make the most sense.
In which case, we want Archery ASAP. As for IW, it's primarily purpose would be merely to reveal where it is, so we just need it by the time offensive operations start.

IW also gets a production boost, but we can wait with IW for a bit. But we may still need it for city-breaking units, since I want to minimize casualties to get more promoted units for the long term.

I also think we should only poll for how many turns forwards, not on a gambit level. For example, we could poll Archery-Mysticism vs. Mysticism-Meditation, since that is where I see the divide goes.

I agree that major decisions need to be polled, where there are discontent, yet, Legion got the say.

IW also gets a production boost

:confused:
What version of civ are you playing?

For the mined Iron mine, I mean, as well as removing jungle.

... Since our UU is an improved Axe...

We are Japan, with Samurai replacing Macemen

I also think we should only poll for how many turns forwards, not on a gambit level. For example, we could poll Archery-Mysticism vs. Mysticism-Meditation, since that is where I see the divide goes.


I disagree. It is critically important to decide on a longer term strategy, and not switch paths every 1-3 techs.

However, this does reveal where some of the fervor against CoL comes from. If we did follow the CoL path, the urgency is for getting Confucianism. Obviously if it were discovered by someone else then it is no longer urgent, and we should abandon that path immediately and switch strategies if there is something else which does have urgency.

Its curious how you argue for polling a long term strategy that locks our nation, when it fits you, whereas you are perfectly fine with continuously repolling other peoples strategies. We both know we should only poll what is to be played in one session, you argued for it before, but now you are not, since it does not fit your agenda. You change your argumentation as it suits you.

Its curious how you argue for polling a long term strategy that locks our nation, when it fits you, whereas you are perfectly fine with continuously repolling other peoples strategies. We both know we should only poll what is to be played in one session, you argued for it before, but now you are not, since it does not fit your agenda. You change your argumentation as it suits you.

You poll a strategy, but you've got to be willing to repoll if the situation changes. We both know that's the best way to run the game.

Polling for everything each session makes for poor planning and gameplay.

-- Ravensfire

It depends on how the strategy is defined. Contrast the following:

1. The strategy of the Arethan people is to become the religious power in the world and achieve total victory by being elected religious leader. All actions the nation takes will support this strategy.

2. The Arethan people desire to found a religion. The tech path will follow the shortest path to techs which found religions, until one is founded or all religions are taken by other civilizations.

3. The Arethan people desire to found a religion as one of many national goals. Since a religion is available and may be likely to be founded if we follow the Code of Laws path, we will follow that path until Confucianism is founded (by ourselves or another), at which time the goal shall either be achieved or abandoned.

4. The Arethan people desire to found a religion as one of many national goals. Since a religion is available and may be likely to be founded if we follow the Code of Laws path, we will start along that path. Since no strategy is complete without accounting for unforseen events, we may abandon this path at any time as circumstances merit.

5. Strategy is for game players, and this is a role playing game. Let's decide tech by tech, with no regard to any cohesive goal, or choose a set of techs for a short term goal without regard to the long term consequences.

I support #4, and have not said otherwise. Others seem to be supporting #5, which in my opinion is the worst possible way to do it. There have been instances in the past where people have advocated strategies like #1 or #2, which I have consistently opposed, every time.

I am planning long term, do not underestimate me. I want IW for a good reason, and that is to have a clear idea of the odds for a military conflict and to know what it takes, as well as being able to cut down jungle etc. Knowing you would set up a poll like that, portraying me as an idiot and you as the only logical choice, I am happy you are not setting up that poll.

Is IW the long term part? What is the strategy? Is it something there is a benefit from for being first?

I'm happy to go strategy vs strategy, any time. That is the choice I want the people to make, between some kind of cohesive religion goal and some kind of cohesive military goal, and perhaps other goals. The 1st tech seems to change all the time -- one time it's IW, then mysticism, then archery, then writing. What's the whole plan, and what's the overall benefit?

We are seeing several directions of thought right now, and to be honest, I think its the Triads privilege to make that decision with the understanding of the entire population when we got our cities up. Right now, the three factions are arguing the direction based on distinct faction interests. This is an ongoing process, and now is not the ultimatum time.

I am planning long term, do not underestimate me. I want IW for a good reason, and that is to have a clear idea of the odds for a military conflict and to know what it takes, as well as being able to cut down jungle etc. Knowing you would set up a poll like that, portraying me as an idiot and you as the only logical choice, I am happy you are not setting up that poll.

etc being?

Chopping down jungle is nice i suppose but not really a huge bonus whilst actually getting iron right now is not a massive thing as everyone seems fairly set on getting cities out rather than attacking anyone- hence the desire for archery when we have horses. I don't really see the need for IW or CoL tbh, except for obvious role play issues, for gameplay the obvious choice is alphabet because contrary to what someone says alphabet is not something the AI prioritise at all and on monarch you can often still get it before they have writing.

the desire for archery when we have horses was largely in order to be able to create Horse archers, which require it

the desire for archery when we have horses was largely in order to be able to create Horse archers, which require it

Quite, so we have HA and therefore the only benefit from IW is finding iron and thus having it for when we want to build samurai. However, we already have copper within our borders, therefore any future cities should not be wholly dependant on securing iron within our borders as we're not going to use it initially but instead hold onto it for a bit. We can't build samurai right now and neither can anyone else build anything on par so we can use axes to quite easily take it.

In fact, atm turnsession 5 research discussion is considering sailing -> math -> alphabet, which postpones IW..

We would be wise to research Alphabet, then sailing and math, so we can trade techs with the other nations. Be careful of giving horseback riding to Lincoln though, they got horses.

I am leary of trading techs unless I get a serious advantage out of it. Also, everything you give the AI is usually one less tech they need on the way to a military unit that will hurt your military strategy.

Yeah , but we trade the techs and kill them before they can build.

I am leary of trading techs unless I get a serious advantage out of it. Also, everything you give the AI is usually one less tech they need on the way to a military unit that will hurt your military strategy.

Possibly in the case of machinery/CS/etc but in the case of HBR it provides a unit that is so easily countered by us that i think we should assume it will be a very usefull trading chip.

Possibly in the case of machinery/CS/etc but in the case of HBR it provides a unit that is so easily countered by us that i think we should assume it will be a very usefull trading chip.

Every hammer the AIs spend on a horse archer is a hammer not spent on a serious unit.

Possibly in the case of machinery/CS/etc but in the case of HBR it provides a unit that is so easily countered by us that i think we should assume it will be a very usefull trading chip.

I agree with this

Yeah, we should trade what we can after Alphabet.

Possibly in the case of machinery/CS/etc but in the case of HBR it provides a unit that is so easily countered by us that i think we should assume it will be a very usefull trading chip.

This is a very good point.