I lost a favorite civ, with .31

Sure there was meteor, the ultimate display of total pwnership. No more great library in industrial -> charismatic.

But I also enjoyed the sublty of shadows. Sure, you had to beeline esus because failing to found was game over; however, it was a nice complex use of grigs.

Now, there is nothing. Twin cast fireballs?! Instead of just having 2 cheap mages (4-5 are sufficient anyway)? Assassins instead of shadows?

Name one thing to use an adventurer for that doesn't suck.

There is no point in using them for units that are a dime a dozen, just use two of those instead.

4 twincasting Aurealis summoning archmages with spammed sun nodes? Dunno haven't tried Grig.

I agree Grig should get shadows or some sort of equivalent, they're fun. Esus in general is pretty messed up though, too hard to spread, the secrecy schtick totally doesn't work etc.

I would think that .31(d) made them stronger, since adept adventurers can get free spell sphere promotions now when they upgrade.

Twincast still works on top tier summons too you know. I'd imagine that Twincasted Air Elementals would be best, since when they win they create Lightning Elementals, which may be weak but have blitz and heal 50% after winning.

You can still get Shadows, you just need for someone to spread Esus in one of your cities first.

+3 tier 3 summon?

Maybe if summoner trait (cass isn't).

Just get 2 fireballs to make up for each summon, they are better and cheaper and u can have a religion.

6 fireball mages = 3 grig archmages. Dime a dozen does not make a hero.

Grig effectively has no hero. They cant have one from religion and their civ hero is not useful/effective as a national unit.

No hero. No religion. Gee...

Sorry, but twincast for units you can make anyway does not = corlindale, yvain, etc. Not even 3 of them. And you get 2 religious heros and 1 civ hero with every other civ (that dont take the place of academies or GAs). Real ones. With unique powerstuff. Not +1 fodder. Sure, when that +1 fodder was 3 9s that did collateral, but not now.

+1 fodder ftl. Next?

may be some unique Grigori adventurers promos set should be implemented. Once born they randomly get one of those promos, what make them special.

You were saying they got nerfed due to meteor removal, it's not fair to then complain that an alternative offered is tier 3 :p

I'm not really seeing how 2 str 4 summons (nor why we're comparing 2 mages to one adventurer, why not an adventurer and a mage, or an adventurer and a monkey?) equals str 8 minimum, probably 12+. If it's the collateral you care about, just pound them with the OP Maelstrom first :p

Forgot the twincast effect too, duh! Really not seeing how fireballs are comparable?

Spell castable only by adventurer triggers event that gives choice of hero?

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@Yaotzin, I xpost edited with urs:

Sure, when that +1 fodder was 3 9s that did collateral, but not now.

Now it is 1 9, that doesnt do collateral and cannot bombard. That's not nerf. That's poof. Before they summoned 3 extra berzerkers (each) that could bombard and moved 4. Now they summon 1 extra champion that moves 3.

So... +1 champion summon? No thanks. I'll take 3 real heros and a religion everytime... for 1/4 the cost of strength of will (-lightbulbing).

Well I personally don't mind an extra 2 :strength: on my Archmages. Makes them survive a whole lot better. And you can always Twincast Maelstrom with one, followed by a Twincast Air Elemental with the other 2. Not much will have the strength remaining to survive the Lightning Elementals after your Air boys toss their best 2 remaining defenders.

And what part of that doesn't work with normal archmages and a handful of cheap fodder?

A whole civ, to summon 3 extra elementals? At the cost of religion and religious heros (and a real civ hero). Seriously?

Build like 4 champs with CR1 instead. And get a religion and a real civ hero.

Give me something cool to do with an adventurer. Like events for a real hero choice.


I already wrote, +1 fodder FTL. Just stop.

I don't need +1 maelstrom (mages are cheap - it only takes TWO tier 2 units to do 50%... you are going to use a hero for it?!) or +1 fireball (again, mages are cheap), or +1 champion (champions are cheap). The creation of fodder is not impressive (excepting it is 9 extra 9s that do collateral and can bombard - 3 extra 10s that don't do anything are hardly a worthwhile endeavor civ choice wise).

I'm gonna go Grig! I get 4 extra 10s!!!11!1 With freaking ONLY strength of will!

did you ever summon 8 fire elementals? try it, they pwn :D

Spell castable only by adventurer triggers event that gives choice of hero?

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@Yaotzin, I xpost edited with urs:



Now it is 1 9, that doesnt do collateral and cannot bombard. That's not nerf. That's poof. You used to summon 3 berzerkers that could bombard and moved 4. Now u summon 1 champion that moves 3.

Well, meteor was horribly OP IMO, so I don't think it's fair to compare to that. Even if it wasn't removed it needed a good whack with the nerf stick.

As for the Aurealis or whatever the heck it's called, I guess it's heavily dependent on map size/settings/how far into the game. It's a 8 with one node, but I can easily see 4+, putting it at 14 and growing as you expand. Sure, 3 9s with collateral/bombard is better, but that was dumb :p It's not +1 champion either though..

Whether that makes up for the other deficiencies I don't know, as said I haven't played them in .31.

Sorry, but twincast for units you can make anyway does not = corlindale, yvain, etc. Not even 3 of them. And you get 2 religious heros and 1 civ hero with every other civ (that dont take the place of academies or GAs). Real ones. With unique powerstuff. Not +1 fodder. Sure, when that +1 fodder was 3 9s that did collateral, but not now.

Not sure what you mean by this, they've always been units you can make anyway with hero (and thus twincast), and have never had anything else special, no?

And what part of that doesn't work with normal archmages and a handful of cheap fodder?

A whole civ, to summon 3 extra elementals? At the cost of religion and religious heros (and a real civ hero). Seriously?

Build like 4 champs with CR1 instead. And get a religion and a real civ hero.

Give me something cool to do with an adventurer. Like events for a real hero choice.


9 meteors per turn didn't work before? I'm just not seeing how they've changed, other than the OP spell they abused best being removed. Maybe that makes them too weak, but if so their balance was flawed anyway, being based upon one OP spell.

I'd rather dominate 20 10's with corlindale, before a single fail.

I had a druid dominate Hemah from a player.

Enjoy your +1 elementals. I can build them a dime a dozen anyway. You need to bombard for them to kill anything decent (I play deity) so you might as well have fireballs and save yourself the time and tech of strength of will.

+1 fodder FTL.

Weren't you the same guy who started the whinethread about Grigori archmages being completely unstoppable, due to twincast meteors?

Adventurers are still way nice, they give you a lot of flexibility early on, and you can still use them to good effect as archmages. It's just not retardedly easy to instantly dominate the entire map once you get them, which based on your last thread I thought would be considered a good thing.

Twincast fire elementals aren't anything to sniff at.

Another factor to consider is that, with Adventurers, the Grig essentially get guaranteed hero units. Granted, with the current state of the AI, there's no real reason why a player can't beat the computer-controlled civs to the religious heroes. But when the AI is up to speed, or against human opponents, it's entirely possible that other civilizations may snag the religious heroes before the player. With the Grig, that's never a concern.

Personally, I think a bigger concern is the Dragonslayer. What's the point of a UU that's a step down from it's vanilla equivalent?

Weren't you the same guy who started the whinethread about Grigori archmages being completely unstoppable, due to twincast meteors?

Your point is that I was right before so I must be right now?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256478

Um... instead of your old Meteors you could have just built 20 Catapults by your logic.

You are summoning "only" 3 extra elementals, who are themselves summoning "Only" 3 MORE extra elementals. This means you are getting 6 more disposable units per turn. Could you just bring 6 other units from your cities each turn? Sure... maybe... once or twice... if you planned perfectly... Kinda... well, no not really at all. So nevermind, this ISN"T just an extra fodder. Huh.

You want the Adventurers to be super-cool, way mondo Awesome? Go Kuriotates, then you only get 1 Adventurer, he has some really neato abilities, and even a unique model! You just have to wait a LONG time to get him, and you can't so much upgrade him at all. Oh, oops.

Or maybe if you just want a BEEFY HERO you could go Lanun and listen to Guybrush talk about the Monkey in his Pocket! Yipee!




Grigori are FAR from sucking. They are still quite solid. And no Adventurer should be capable of coming CLOSE to comparing to an actual Hero unit. You are expected to get probably 6 of them in the course of the game without your worldspell, thus at best they should be about 1/6th of the strength of a true Hero. Plus you are granted diversity and options, which always comes at the cost of strength, so that knocks them down to being maybe allowed to be 1/10th the strength of a Hero.


Now tell me... which Hero can stand up to 10 Adventurers upgraded to the same Tech Level as the Hero is awarded at? None? How about just 5 of the Adventurers then? Still none? huh. Guess they aren't underpowered.


Are Adventurers just a slightly stronger base unit? Ayup. Is that what the are MEANT TO BE? Ayup.

So, nothing is wrong here, move along folks.

My point was you had a (legitimate, imo!) problem with the Grigori before, being way too powerful due to twincast meteors. Now they don't get them anymore due to the removal of Meteor from the game, but I don't see how Grigori specifically are too underpowered now.

Twincast fire elmentals are still scary, and Grig can still get them far more easily than anyone else. Their adventurers can also fill in as hero types of your choice as the game progresses whenever you need them.

Um... instead of your old Meteors you could have just built 20 Catapults by your logic.

You are summoning "only" 3 extra elementals, who are themselves summoning "Only" 3 MORE extra elementals.

No.

My point is that it creates mundane fodder. If I wanted 1 or 10 or 50 more axemen I would build them. I don't want more. I want none. A hero must do better tha just +1 (or +9) fodder. Any tier 2 unit can do that.

The rest of your rant on fodder is irrelevant. I don't want any.

Guybrush captures naval. Situational, but special.

Maybe the conversation needs to be turned on it's ear a bit.

Ecofarm, what do you want Adventurers to be able to accomplish or do?

So far, I like this:

may be some unique Grigori adventurers promos set should be implemented. Once born they randomly get one of those promos, what make them special.

Or allow anyone who gets guilds have shadows. Just giving them back that so they have something cool to do.

Or have adventurers cast a spell to cause an event that gives you a choice of hero unit.

Other ideas?

+1 fodder is just not cutting it anymore than +3 super fodder did. Instead of totally pwning, grig arches are totally lame. A handfull of fireball mages easily makes up for the extra 3 elementals. In fact, it's better because it bombards.

Um..does anyone ever turn their adventurers into anything other than mages anymore?

Combat 5 or twincast doesn't really matter when you can have 5 more mages for cheap.

I make them assassins, to go with regular fireball mages; pretty lame...

Perhaps I can upgrade CR3 melee to paladins or eids? That (like vamps) is not bad.

I still think that Air Elementals are usually a batter choice, since you then get free lightning elementals too.

I do think that summons could be improved though. I'm thinking Treants and Earth Elementals should have siege abilities, Fire Elementals should explode in combat and maybe create flames features, Water Elementals should be able to carry DOMAIN_SEA units across land, Djinni should be arcane units that start with some mage spells of their own, Balors need fire and entropy affinity and maybe magic in those spheres, Einherjar should have Spirit Guide (they already stick around and can gather and use xp, but eventually lose it), etc.

Am I the only one who uses the chaos or law 3 summons that stay whenever they win? With twincast and them, along with a mage or two to maelstrom, you get a constantly growing army. Even if you lose one or two to particularly powerful opponenets, you will still have plenty more coming. Of course, it is still cannon fodder, but good cannon fodder.

I lost a favorite civ, with .31

Sure there was meteor, the ultimate display of total pwnership. No more great library in industrial -> charismatic.

But I also enjoyed the sublty of shadows. Sure, you had to beeline esus because failing to found was game over; however, it was a nice complex use of grigs.

Now, there is nothing. Twin cast fireballs?! Instead of just having 2 cheap mages (4-5 are sufficient anyway)? Assassins instead of shadows?

Name one thing to use an adventurer for that doesn't suck.

There is no point in using them for units that are a dime a dozen, just use two of those instead.

Effective translation: "Waaa! Waaa! They took away my ridiculously overpowered meteor spell! They took away the religious unit I wasn't supposed to have!"

Seriously, the grigori DO NOT suck. They still have the best mages in the game (twincast and hero promotion for lots of xp). The mage path still gives them Luonontar. And, in addition to having a those great end-game units, the grigori are still the best rushers in the game.

At the end of the day, theres still no civ who stands a chance against a Combat V, Heroic Strength II, Shock II warrior (with proper backup).

So yeah, let me see... strongest early game military, check. Most flexible gameplay (can choose traits, adventurers upgrade to any unit, versatile worldspell), check. Strongest and quickest archmages in the game, check.

And did I mention you can now get the (previously unavailable) heal spell? Oh, and not only do you get it, you get it early (at medicine) and on a unit with no cap?

Why are you complaining again?

The rest of your rant on fodder is irrelevant.




"Xienwolf I have absolutely no way to counter what you're saying because I'm prating like a jackass."

The rest of your rant on fodder is irrelevant. I don't want any.


I'm going to repeat this bit of Xien's post as it's exactly right. The Grigori don't get one special hero. They get ~6 (or more) *lesser* heros. They are lesser. They are not as good. There are many of them to make up for it. That is how it is supposed to work.

If I recall before your problem with them was that you played multiplayer with a very specific set of additional rules in place which meant that they had potential to dominate. It now sounds as if you've become used to using that fact and play Grigori yourself.

If you feel that they're "teh sux0r" now, don't play as them. I'm sure there's another race that can "pwn all". As the number of different people replying on the matter has highlighted, most of us still feel that they're a powerful civilization - not in an earthshattering, all conquering way, but a solid, dependable civ that can be played many different ways successfully. Personally I always liked an early combat5 shock2 axeman force, upgrading to Champions/Immortals later. The option was never as strong on paper as the Archmages, but it worked fine. It still works fine.

Oh - and nice one Calbrenar :D

What about waiting and seeing what the system will be like when initial testing is done and all spheres are at least implemented for a start before criticizing / comparing something that hasn't been fully done?

The complete overhaul has just been done a very short time ago.
To compare the new system at that stage with a fully and lengthily fleshed out and more or less tested system yields forseeable results. The new system can't stand up to the old one (yet ;)).
If thats not to your liking play the last version that works for you and your MP partners and wait a few weeks / months until the new system is at least a bit tested and fleshed out. And then judge on at least some kind of comparable basis.

But best whould be if you whould still playtest it in spite of not liking it and provide constructive feedback like you did more or less on Maelstrom. (which im sure you will. ;))



At the no honor / deception for Grigori im with the Op that i dont so any reason for blocking it for the Grigori whatsoever. Especially since the Council voting mechanism has been changed to negate the negative effects of the Grigori founding them.
But since it wasn't written explicitly in the changelog i don't see this one as an intentional change yet. Could have missed something though.

The current spreading mechanism for Esus is broken to root anyways and should be changed instead of other things tweaked around a completely broken concept. (remember all the religious techs beeing changed to giving a free desciple. That was done for a reason. And i think few will argue it was a bad change whatsoever. Basically everyone gets an "Esus desciple" / Nightwatch from Deception as well allready.
But im sure not just for windowdressing [pun intended :p] as it is now.)

And there also is no reason for Esus not opperating at Grigori soil flavorwise if one thinks it trough a bit. I doubt all the Esus units operate at the say / notice of its nations leader. So if anything they ought to be harder to contain not easier.
Grigori cant really get any substantial of the benefits of Esus religion anyways (the nice Esus spells won't work without having it as state or am i wrong and this has changed?) so whats the point of the block in the first place? (besides a mistake of course which i think is more likely the reason.)
That after all reduces the chance for the councils acting in the game which is not a good thing at all imo.

I yery much doubt barring the grigori from entering the councils and defensive pacts whould be intentional. After all thats a place for mortal (or not so much mortal :p) leaders of erebus to handle the worlds affairs not the gods. So all in line with Cassiels thinking i reckon.
That i whould consider the far worse handicap gameplaywise / funwise (i doubt anyone will argue that mages have been weakend, albeit for a reason + that priests have been improved quite considerably. Both of which hurts the relative strength of the Grigori allready. Although i whouldn't agree on Ecofams assessment of the overall power of the Grigori now.)

I enjoyed reading your explanation Blackmantle.

I was surprised and disappointed in my first game with the Grigori when I couldn't research Deception or Honor. I thought, no problem, there must be some other way I can build Shadows later on. Uh, no.

I looked in the changelog/patch description and didn't see anything.

I really liked the strategy of building Shadows in the later game and it is a shame I cannot do that now with the Grigori. I agree that maybe just researching Guilds should be enough.

Not being able to research Honor is not as much a problem because I don't think you lose much - not having Empyrean religion means nothing to the Grigori, and it does have a chance of spreading anyway (not like CofE). I think you can still initiate Defensive Pacts, but I am not sure.

One other thing that is missing from the Grigori now is the ability to build that very powerful hero, The Trojan Horse. Well, you can have some fun with that, but no Deception - no Trojan Horse.

I haven't played the Grigori enough yet, though, to say whether I prefer the Adventurer heroes over the National/Religious heroes. I am very glad the Grigori can still build the Baron though. Please don't take him away next. :cry:

Effective translation: "Waaa! Waaa! They took away my ridiculously overpowered meteor spell! They took away the religious unit I wasn't supposed to have!"


"Xienwolf I have absolutely no way to counter what you're saying because I'm prating like a jackass."


Originally Posted by Ecofarm
The rest of your rant on fodder is irrelevant. I don't want any.

I'm going to repeat this bit of Xien's post as it's exactly right. The Grigori don't get one special hero. They get ~6 (or more) *lesser* heros. They are lesser. They are not as good. There are many of them to make up for it. That is how it is supposed to work.

If I recall before your problem with them was that you played multiplayer with a very specific set of additional rules in place which meant that they had potential to dominate. It now sounds as if you've become used to using that fact and play Grigori yourself.

If you feel that they're "teh sux0r" now, don't play as them. I'm sure there's another race that can "pwn all". As the number of different people replying on the matter has highlighted, most of us still feel that they're a powerful civilization - not in an earthshattering, all conquering way, but a solid, dependable civ that can be played many different ways successfully. Personally I always liked an early combat5 shock2 axeman force, upgrading to Champions/Immortals later. The option was never as strong on paper as the Archmages, but it worked fine. It still works fine.

Oh - and nice one Calbrenar

:lol: i agree entirely with the above

I was surprised and disappointed in my first game with the Grigori when I couldn't research Deception or Honor. I thought, no problem, there must be some other way I can build Shadows later on. Uh, no.

I looked in the changelog/patch description and didn't see anything.

I really liked the strategy of building Shadows in the later game and it is a shame I cannot do that now with the Grigori. I agree that maybe just researching Guilds should be enough.

I ran a test on this back in 0.30k, I put Council of Esus religion in a Grigori city and gave them Guilds in the worldbuilder. Shadows were available to train. So you can have Shadows as Grigori, you just have to get an Esus player to spread it to your city ;)

Strangely enough, it always seems like Esus spreads fast in Grigori and Illian cities whenever I found it as another civilization.

People defending the Grigori in this topic don't seem to get how much more powerful FfH religions are than normal Civ4 ones, and what a big drawback it is to not be able to have any of them, not to mention the usefulness of regular great people and regular heroes. To make up for missing ALL THREE of those things, the Grigori needed uber adventurers to be balanced. They still somewhat have them early on in the form of melee adventurers, but while it's a good earlygame advantage it's not the greatest, and later on they just fall apart.

Every time i've played grigori I've typically killed off one possibly two civs nearby both preventing the need for an extra 1 or 2 settlers and giving me access to the better cap starting resources.

Even as Jonas I've had problems pulling this off and if they start on a mountain its basically impossible. As Grigori you easily get access to 2 or 3 Shock Combat (sometimes Raider depending on how you research) heroes that can use metal weapons and can demolish any other civ's starting forces. If you go recon and animal husbandry you can get armies of animals.

I fail to see how considering the game is near exponential as far as researching and building goes the enormous advantage the grigori get early game does not translate to an enormous advantage later on.

Unless you found a holy city not all of the religions are that fantastic and even with the holy city in many cases an aggressively played early grigori civ can end up grabbing other nice cash generating caps faster then most religions holy shrines spread any kind of serious cash and you don't need to drop a gp for it.

I personally think that Uber units aren't the area where the lack of religion hurts the Grigori so much as happiness and culture. Thats why I added a "Local Ledgend" Great Specialist that adventurers can join a city as. It grants +1 xp to all units built in the city, +2 Adventurer GPP, and +3 culture. (I was planning to make it give +1 :) too, but there isn't a tag for that.)

I'm thinking I may change the way they are added to work through a spell instead (borrowing from the Golden Hammer code), so any Grigori Hero can join a city instead of just unupgraded adventurers.

Or, I might just give Grigori heroes a spell that turns them back to adventurers (similar to wane). That would mean your adventurers could switch to a different unitcombat and get different promotions if you want. Hmm..that might be overpowered, as you could get an archmage adventurer with lots of spells spheres to switch to a physically stronger unit that retains all its abilities but doesn't take up a national unit slot. War Chariots with Blitz, Mobility 1+2, Heroic Strength/Defense 1+2, Mithril Weapons, Subdue Animal, Subdue Beasts, Twincast, and the ability to cast all archmage spells could be almost unstoppable. If you don't care about losing a little movement, you can make it an Archmage/Beastmaster/Immortal instead.

That is probably very unbalanced, but I think I like it. ;) I think it makes sense for adventurers to return home to a peaceful life, and then decide to embark on a completely different adventure as a different type of unit, while retaining the skill developed earlier. This is much more interesting than the simple "summon 6 meteors every turn (or 12 every other turn)" so called strategy.

You say the Grigori aren't powerful because they don't have meteors. I just won a Tower of Mastery victory because of my four immortal adventurers, and no mages/archmages. And, meteors weren't even a grigori spell. You could have used anyone to get them. The only difference was that you got a second set. However, IMHO, this really decreases your ability to react later on in game anyway. I would rather have archmages that can do several things, than waste six more promotions to get them to cast six meteors instead of three.

How do you get Immortals as Grigori? Eyes and Ears Network? Lots and lots of tech trading?

Well, I was playing with just the Tower of Mastery victory on, and I did a lot of tech trading. I was lucky enough to have a nice start. Turn 20, I got an Adventurer, then I wiped out the Malakim, and took their captial, with lots of commerce-generating resources, such as Dye and Silk. I was playing a very long game.

Every time i've played grigori I've typically killed off one possibly two civs nearby both preventing the need for an extra 1 or 2 settlers and giving me access to the better cap starting resources.

Even as Jonas I've had problems pulling this off and if they start on a mountain its basically impossible. As Grigori you easily get access to 2 or 3 Shock Combat (sometimes Raider depending on how you research) heroes that can use metal weapons and can demolish any other civ's starting forces. If you go recon and animal husbandry you can get armies of animals.

I fail to see how considering the game is near exponential as far as researching and building goes the enormous advantage the grigori get early game does not translate to an enormous advantage later on.

Unless you found a holy city not all of the religions are that fantastic and even with the holy city in many cases an aggressively played early grigori civ can end up grabbing other nice cash generating caps faster then most religions holy shrines spread any kind of serious cash and you don't need to drop a gp for it.

Excellent post, Calbrenar!

I follow the same strategy to use my first two Adventurer heroes as a Warrior/Axeman and a Hunter. Supported by a lesser Warrior, the early hero is unstoppable. Most AI cities are defended by one Warrior with no promotions. If you play with the Barbarian World option, it is fairly easy to get your second city without building a Settler...or just declare war on your neighbor. I also have been lucky to have Orthus spawn near me on several occasions and he is dead meat for the Adventurer hero.

I was able to use the Hunter hero to get all the animals and build the elusive Grand Menagerie.

So, you are right in that the Grigori can be an early-game juggernaut.

However, later game, I do miss being able to build the Shadows. As the ai pacts up, it is difficult to declare war sometimes, so I like to use the Shadows to go in and at least make the game interesting.

Yes, the happy cap is a problem for the Grigori with no religions. I have to admit cheating a bit on my starting position by making sure there are at least 2 resources that will bring happiness (or grains and the city is on a river). Then, as I said, I try to get as many animals as I can, and, hopefully that Menagerie.

In my last game I was very lucky and got Iron Working very early from a Graveyard robbing. I was able to build Dragon Slayers by turn 50 in an Epic speed game. Of course, upgrading my Adventurer heroes to Dragon Slayers was too expensive, and there wasn't an Axeman option as the unit was obsoleted. However, I was able to more than hold my own against the raging barbs when they came and had a pretty powerful army augmented by the Stooges.

Girg is not my fav civ. It was (and I should stress was) one of the civs I enjoyed playing in my hundreds of games. There are a few I like more. Those of you who think I am crying because I need meteors lack perspective. I was a leading complainer in how overpowered grig archmages were. I have no delusions regarding the game breaking balance problem that was.

Anyway, there is no "waaaaah". Don't anyone call a waaambulance.

Grig sucks.

If you want to warrior rush, go play bts inca.

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To the guy who would rather have something else than another 3 meteors:

:nono: don't be such a noob

Eighteen collateral nines

18, 9str, collateral

18

Honestly, this old "strategy" was overpowered and easily got boring. I'm glad they did away with it. Others have been a bit too critical of your comments, but you have sounded awfully whiny. If you think they suck so much, why not try to think of new ways to make them better instead of pointing out what they lost? There may not have been a better option than 18 meteors, but that does not mean that there can't or won't be better choices in the future.


Honestly, arcane might does not fit the Grigori theme. There is nothing in their lore that implies that the civ should be particularly magic oriented, or that Archmage adventurers are the norm.

I'm not sure I like Twincast being a hero only promotion. I may change the prerequisites, make it be granted only by Planar Gates or the Summoning trait, or remove it completely and give the twincasting ability to the Dimensional II or III promotion instead.




I'm thinking that the Grigori may just become my favorite civ when I implement what I have planned for them, although I'm also boosting religions significantly. Letting any adventurer hero go back to being an adventurer unit again, so it can go on a new adventure as a completely different type of unit while holding on to all its old promotions (and thus spells) is just too cool to pass up. I think it fits the theme much better too. Adventurers aren't the most responsible soldiers, as thematically they are given to following their whimsy instead if staying with the rest of the military. It seems logical for them to get board with their job and go to seek another. Their past experiences would still give them a nice advantage over the others in their new field. (How many other Beastmasters have the advantage of also being a skilled archmage?)

Ecofarm should get a blog, since he wants to whine like a four year old instead of discuss.

The ''meteor strategy'' was not a strategy it was an exploit. Besides, does anyone seriously find that fun? Surely the point in playing FFH is to have fun, yes? I mean sure, its entertaining at first, but seriously? The meteor thing also detracted from the uniqueness of the sheaim and amurites, who were supposed to be the best spell casters, but were outshone by the grigori twin-cast meteor casters. IMHO, the removal of the meteor spell was one of the best changes the team made in this version.

What the Hells the point in winning due to 18 meteors? There is none. You want a cheap win, play Settler difficulty, go into WB, and delete every one of your opponents cities. If you rely on such an exploit, all the time, and cry when it is removed because it is unfair on the AI, and the like, then you need to experience more of the game. FfH has masses of oppertunity, and if you rely on meteors, you might as well not play.

in after "BAAAAWWWWWWWW PEOPLE LIKED A STRATEGY I DIDN'T"

Ooooh, we even have one of them calling it an "exploit" despite that being a load of crap. Meteors and heroes were both working as designed. Combining the two is synergy, not exploitation. Goddamn scrub... I don't use that term lightly, but seriously, chewing someone out for using a strong strategy he finds fun and baselessly calling it an exploit? You fail.

in after "BAAAAWWWWWWWW PEOPLE LIKED A STRATEGY I DIDN'T"

Ooooh, we even have one of them calling it an "exploit" despite that being a load of crap. Meteors and heroes were both working as designed. Combining the two is synergy, not exploitation. Goddamn scrub... I don't use that term lightly, but seriously, chewing someone out for using a strong strategy he finds fun and baselessly calling it an exploit? You fail.

I agree that exploit is a strong word but you're being a little over the top yourself. It wasn't a strong strategy it was a boring easy thing to do. It was the FFH equivelent of getting Calvary or Tanks in Civ and it was BORING. One of my friends I played with has no idea of the nuances and abilities of how to play different FFH civs and the flavor they had. However playing as AMurites he was able to win easily and consistently (not vs me but against the game itself) because all he had to do was get meteors and it was game over.

It requires no skill or planning just surviving until you get the tech and finding reagents and its an I win button.

So while that isn't quite an exploit, referring to it as a strategy, strong or otherwise, is an outright joke and I for am glad they were removed from the game because they were downright stupid. Ooh look I can create 3 throwaway catapults every turn per caster! 6 per Hero, and they are stronger then normal catapults and FREE!

WHAT A BRILLIANT STRATEGY. ONLY CAESAR HIMSELF COULD HAVE WORKED THAT OUT. ANYONE WHO MANAGED TO DUPLICATE THAT MUST BE A STUDENT OF SUN TZU!

Time to move along to another thread guys.