I'm currently making an expansion and it needs one more trait to avoid duplication. I'm learning python and can edit basic xml so it should cover a lot of things. There will be six new civilizations coming, 8 leaders for existing civs, 3 new wonders (TBD) and major changes to diplomacy and espionage with diplomatic units.

My new trait ideas are
Resourceful:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers
double production of power plants (coal, nuclear, hydro, SOLAR (new))

Strategic:
-20% espionage cost
promotions to Mounted, Armored units
double production of Airports, Drydocks

Diplomatic:
+2 bonus to all relations with all civs
Scouts/Explorers can explore rival territory

Please weigh in with adjustments or your own suggestions on some new traits.

Feedback;
Resourceful: Not really decent, but a fine idea. Don't include ideas for new buildings like that (SOLAR(new)) though.

Strategic: 20% looks a bit random, but sounds ok. Also, I think flanking promos makes a lot of sense, aswell as cheap buildings. Maybe a bit underpowered still.

Diplomatic:
No, no, no. A trait that manipulates the AI relations is not good. Neither does it work in Multiplayer. And scouts/explorers are rarely used after initial scoutings, unless terra maptype, afaik. If you need to see someone you dont have OB with, you use spies.

Diplomatic should impact something even in multi-player. So, here's an example. According to the biblical account of Assyria's assault on Jerusalem, Assyrian "diplomats" would converse with their Jewish counterparts in hebrew so that the "diplomatic negotiations" could also be used to demoralize a population. The Jewish diplomats begged the Assyrians to speak in a different language because they could see the effect it was having.

EDIT: the negotiations described took place at the city walls for all the residents to overhear

+10% increase in opponent war weariness
+10% bonus to all EP

Or, maybe +1 foreign trade route in the top 6 cities? OR how about + extra foreign trade route for each rival with open borders in the capital?

Or, my personal favorite, halve the "rebellion" time for newly conquered cities.

-- SJN

Feedback;
Resourceful: Not really decent, but a fine idea. Don't include ideas for new buildings like that (SOLAR(new)) though.

Interesting Diamondeye. You thought it wasn't very decent, and here I am thinking that it would be too overpowered. :lol:

Production can be multiplied by a lot of things. 1 extra hammer per square (and you can get up to 3 hammers on all non-water non-desert squares) would result in 21 extra hammers, multiplied my the modifiers = :eek:

seasnake,

I have to agree with Diamondeye on the diplomatic trait. +2 relations isn't that awesome. Though +2 relations does sound like it would be a good addition on top of Creative, as I believe that is a very weak trait.

Regardless, good luck with your project! And if you need a beta tester, don't hesitate to ask. I'd be more than willing to help you out where I could.

diplomatic could increase +25% war weariness on enemies.

Thanks for the initial feedback. With the SOLAR (new) I was merely pointing out that this would be a new building, it would look like the others in the book when in the game.

I like the resourceful feedback I heard, one thinks it's too powerful and one thinks it sucks. Sounds perfect. That's usually the sign of a good trait, because it only depends on the playing style of the person. For instance, I love creative civs. Fast-expanding borders and cheap buildings are incredible. A lot of people think it's weak, but I say play a game with Louis or Zara and enjoy the nice synergy those traits work together (especially if Zara builds Stonehenge, free stele).

I think the half rebellion is great, and the foreign trade routes might really make it good. Regardless, I'll play with some of the ideas and see if it's too easy. I think resourceful is the clear winner though so far.

Strategic:
-20% espionage cost
promotions to Mounted, Armored units
double production of Airports, Drydocks


That's funny - I actually added a leader trait called "strategic" in a mod that I made some months ago. I made so many changes to it through play-testing (and to all of the traits, for that matter) that I'm having trouble remembering exactly what I ended with... I'll have to look it up at some point.

But I believe I gave it something like +50% espionage, +100% bonus to building intel agency, new units start with Drill I.

EDIT:

Diplomatic:
+2 bonus to all relations with all civs
Scouts/Explorers can explore rival territory


I'm not sure how you would mod a +2 bonus to all relations with all civs... I'd be worried about game balance with that trait, too. An AI civ with this trait might consistantly have a lot of influence over other civs... granted, I think that's the idea, but from a balance perspective, that might be a little too powerful.

I don't think the civ can support more than one additional trait. You already would have to introduce 11 new leaders to have all combinations covered. Currently 55 possible combinations exist. I'm not sure if all of them are used.

I don't think the civ can support more than one additional trait. You already would have to introduce 11 new leaders to have all combinations covered. Currently 55 possible combinations exist. I'm not sure if all of them are used.

Mik1984,

I'm still looking for the Philosophical/Industrious leader for my Specialist Economy games. :devil:

I'm introducing 6 civs and eight leaders for other civs, and have added the trait Resourceful with 1 free hammer on tiles with four hammers and double production of power plants (res). The other leaders include:

Hiawatha of the Native Americans (ind/phi)
Carlos V of Spain (exp/res)
Hirohito of Japan (ind/res)
Abu Bakr of the Arabs (cre/res)
Harald III of the Vikings (cha/res)
Pachacuti Yupanqui of the Inca (res/org)

New Civs:
Israel:
Ben Gurion (pro/org)
Solomon (spi/res)
Gran Colombia:
Simon Bolivar (imp/res)
Poland:
Jan Sobieski (fin/res)
Pacific Islanders:
Kamehameha (phi/res)
Salote (cha/cre)
Kongo:
Nzinga Mbemba (pro/res)
Hittites:
Mursili (agg/ind)

Changed leader:
Stalin (agg/res)

I've played with the resourceful trait and it is on par with financial, fin/res and ind/phi are power combos. But I don't worry about that, Rome's a power civ in general, I think it will still be a lot of fun to play with "forbidden" combos. I've successfully added Gran Colombia, Israel, Hirohito and Carlos V. More to do still.

I don't think that a snowballing trait that adds :hammers: to productive tiles chances much in the game. I'd rather have this trait help cities build in inhospitable environments, like deserts, tundras, glaciers, ice packs and more than 12 water tiles in city BFC.

Feedback;
Resourceful: Not really decent, but a fine idea. Don't include ideas for new buildings like that (SOLAR(new)) though.

Strategic: 20% looks a bit random, but sounds ok. Also, I think flanking promos makes a lot of sense, aswell as cheap buildings. Maybe a bit underpowered still.

Diplomatic:
No, no, no. A trait that manipulates the AI relations is not good. Neither does it work in Multiplayer. And scouts/explorers are rarely used after initial scoutings, unless terra maptype, afaik. If you need to see someone you dont have OB with, you use spies.

Strategic in that form would be WEAK? Are you kidding me????

EP can already be used to be more efficient than beakers (albeit you can't get a tech lead solely through EP). Flanking promos would make this a ridiculous warmonger trait. You have to think about the implications. You'd see utter garbage, like flank II chariots with AH and a barracks. 40% withdrawal chance that early? Seriously? You could probably kill 3 civs like that, with GENERIC chariots!

I agree that resourceful is a good idea, and it could be balanced by tweaking the total amount of hammers it brings. Giving a bonus to all tiles with hammers, for example, would be too strong, while giving it at only +3 might not match other traits. Hmm. Cheap markets could make such a trait a little more bearable though, and no other trait uses them!

Diplo as he has it would suck utterly in MP, but be kind of overwhelming in SP in the other direction. Basically everybody would like you for way too long. Guys like toku would open borders easily, and you'd be a random even or an OB away from pleased. Friendly would be much easier, to the point of being overpowered. Note that while you can use spies in rival territory, they can be caught. Using scouts/explorers is actually pretty funny and potentially powerful, as scouts are quite cheap. It'd be like a substitute for what would otherwise be a fairly powerful amount of passive EP. Too hard to balance such a trait IMO.

Thanks for everyone's help. I've killed diplomatic and now have narrowed it down to a final 3 traits:

Resourceful: +1 :hammers: on plots with 4 :hammers:
Double production of power plants

Inventive: +2 :science: per city
Double production of laboratory, industrial park

Strategic: +2 :espionage: per city
Free Drill 1 promotion to Mounted, Armor Units
Double production of Stables, Airport

Resourceful may be too weak now, because it takes a while for the bonuses to show up. You need a bunch of improvements, select tiles to make it happen. But if it's +1 :hammers: on plots with 3 it gets out of hand early.

Inventive doesn't break the game, but is nothing to write home about

Strategic may be the best balance of useful and not OP that I have tried. The Drill one is nice but not game breaking, the flanking was making invincible units rather than mounted units with an edge. Armor units are few and far between. Double Stables and Airports is helpful, and the extra espionage allows for more tech stealing and improvement mashing.

Ideally, I'd like to fix resourceful, but I can't seem to make it happen. Oh well.

IMO resourceful should be opposite what you have. Instead of making good land better, what if it made worthless land useful? Say a bonus for deserts, tundra, and ice? and possibly other terrain?
Unfortunately that would be very situational (though good for sticking a few more cities in after all the good sites are taken).

Two points: +2:science: per city makes it far too easy to grab an early religion.
and Mounted units should recieve flanking, not drill.

[Something] per city might not be a good idea in general - that does cut deeply into game balnce - i.e. early on. And the early religion is really the last thing i would worry about here: It's 1 - 2 turns saved on every early tech. Meaning you can improve your land faster. It might add up badly.
Espionage might be less troublesome, because there is not a lot you can do with espionage early on. Still its a 50% increase over the normal 4 :espionage: you get before CoL.
It is also a move towards making initial city spam more viable again, which is not necessarily good.

Two points: +2 per city makes it far too easy to grab an early religion.
and Mounted units should recieve flanking, not drill.

Thanks for weighing in, I think that drill is better because flanking leads to units that have a high withdrawal too quickly. There is of course disagreement.

Espionage might be less troublesome, because there is not a lot you can do with espionage early on. Still its a 50% increase over the normal 4 you get before CoL.

Yes, it all does add up, but not so much. Still, maybe the best way is to make a percentage modifier with 20 percent additional points. That might be possible.

Okay, here's the fixed version of Strategic. I think I might resurrect Resourceful now with a percentage of extra hammers.

Iirc, mounted units are not normally offered the drill promotion. mounted units are frequently immune to first strikes without any promotions, and the first strikes drill units receive don't become significant until drill 3. Would the mounted units therefore be able to continue up the drill line? It seems odd to me

To relax the fanatics who thinks I'm crazy; I was not implementing that Res wasn underpowered, merely that I did not like the idea.

And if you add Drill I to mounted units, have you changed the xml so that they can get the rest of the drill line aswell? Drill I alone is not worth anything real imho.

diplomatic could increase +25% war weariness on enemies.

I like this idea a lot. (I know seasnake has moved on, but I just wanted to add my $0.02.)

Flanking I on armored units seems overpowered to me.

I'm actually trying to make a trait called efficient:

20% percent more espionage points
+1 hammer on plots with 4 hammers
Double production of Power plants

I'd be interested in seeing a trait that makes deserts have food...something like Arid or Nomad.

I want traits that can

* reduce cost of upgrading units (Technological?)
* reduce inflation (Economical?)

-- SJN

Interesting Diamondeye. Though +2 relations does sound like it would be a good addition on top of Creative, as I believe that is a very weak trait.


haha creative is a weak now? i loled

haha creative is a weak now? i loled

Priah,

I think Creative is very weak. You can get culture in so many places. Also as I get to higher and higher difficulties, I find myself delaying that first city more and more (to make sure my economy is sound.) Further increasing the chance of being able to acquire culture elsewhere.

Also, as someone who primarily runs a specialist economy, I'm scrambling for Great Prophet points anywhere I can get them. So even on the lower difficulties, I'll aim for Stonehenge even if I'm not industrious.

I guess it's just a different play style. :)

Change it to this.



My new trait ideas are
Resourceful:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers
double production speed of mines.
Increases the chance you will find resources in a mine.
double production of power plants, For every resource that you own two or more of you gain an extra copy of that resource. (2 Iron = 3)

Strategic:
-20% espionage cost
promotions to Mounted, Armored units
double production of Airports, Drydocks
Free flanking promotion.
Great generals earn 2x Experience.

Diplomatic:
+2 bonus to all relations with all civs
Scouts/Explorers can explore rival territory
Other civilizations are more likely to trade you technology (-5% NPC assumed value of technology.)

Priah,

I think Creative is very weak. You can get culture in so many places. Also as I get to higher and higher difficulties, I find myself delaying that first city more and more (to make sure my economy is sound.) Further increasing the chance of being able to acquire culture elsewhere.

Also, as someone who primarily runs a specialist economy, I'm scrambling for Great Prophet points anywhere I can get them. So even on the lower difficulties, I'll aim for Stonehenge even if I'm not industrious.

I guess it's just a different play style. :)

I have to agree with Priah, Creative is among top 3-4 traits, sometimes even beating Fin. I find it to be one of the traits that is never out of place, as well as helping alot. Perhaps this is because I tend ot avoid religions (and therefore, Mysticism). But just remember that those 30 :hammers: for a monument is the same as the cost of an early military unit (archer/chariot/axeman?). One extra military unit per city really helps you out ealrygame.

By the way, the harder the difficulty, the earlier you should begin to landgrab. You need that land even more to be able to compete.

To begin with, I didn't think Financial was worth anything, that extra Commerce sounded like next to nothing.

Now I always want it! I like being Financial and run a somewhat-Cottage Economy, placing Cottages at riversides, top quickly get the bonus Commerce. Whenever I don't have it, I'm still thinking along those strategies in the back of my mind.

I've often wondered about Traits giving this bonus for Production and Food respectively. But they might give balance problems. Perhaps only give the +1 Hammer/Food bonus if the plot already yields 3+ instead of 2+.
After reading ofter people's opinions, I actually like the versions where you get the Food/Hammer bonus for plots with low yields!

So perhaps the Trait "Agricultural" where plots with 0-1 Food get +1, or perhaps quicker building of Farms, or better yields from Rice/Wheat/Corn (perhaps even the animal resources), and the faster building of Granaries and what other?

Or "Productive/Resourceful/Crafty" where plots with 0-1 Hammers get +1, perhaps quicker building of Mines, Quarries, Wind-/Watermills, Sawmills, perhaps +1 Hammer from Windmill, or better yields for Iron/Bronze/Stone/Marble and the faster building of Forge and what other?

Whatever you do, I don't think any Leader should have more than one of these Financial, Agricultural or Resourceful in their Trait combo.

After I've come to understand it better, and get betetr use of, Espionage - a Trait for this could also be cool. What I'm missing most, is an early building giving some bonus for Espionage points, or penalties for foreign spies in your country. Perhaps letting Spies be built faster, and keeping them free of Upkeep. That way, you could easily put a spy in all your cities, to hamper the foreign agents.

Diplomatic is difficult to apply, since the human player can't be moved by any game mechanic. The only solution I see is higher/faster War Weariness for any enemies. Giving more beneficial Colony relations might not do the trick, since not everyone use/like this concept. But what buildings to build faster???

How about Merchantile for a Trait? Giving bonus or better Trade Routes, quick building of some buildings related to this, trade or income in general (Market, Grocer, Costums House, perhaps Harbour, Bank).

Organised reduce Maint. from Civics, right? How a bout a Trait that reduced the cost for distance from palace? I can't think of a good name right now...

Production on tiles with low production would completely imbalance the game. Think of all those grasslands/plains that are suddenly powerhouses (and think of the bonus for cottage economies that are normally hammer-poor tiles, with a golden age and resourceful that'd be 2 :hammers: extra on each plot. With US that's 3 per tile, or 60 base hammers for pure grass cottages. That is nearly as much as SP/CS Workshops, and I havent even mentioned the commerce difference.

My mistake, that could easily escalate. Not to mention coast/sea tiles! A single hammer would be nice, but what with Moai and Levee...

Perhaps limiting "Resourceful" to only give +1 Hammer on river-less Tundra, Snow and Desert tiles. That'd hardly imbalance anything. I'm excluding river tiles, since they can otherwise be fitted with a nice Watermill.

And "Agricultural" limited to only give +1 Food om the tiles mentioned above.

So in essence they would only give a bonus to otherwise uselss tiles.

My mistake, that could easily escalate. Not to mention coast/sea tiles! A single hammer would be nice, but what with Moai and Levee...

Perhaps limiting "Resourceful" to only give +1 Hammer on river-less Tundra, Snow and Desert tiles. That'd hardly imbalance anything. I'm excluding river tiles, since they can otherwise be fitted with a nice Watermill.

And "Agricultural" limited to only give +1 Food om the tiles mentioned above.

So in essence they would only give a bonus to otherwise uselss tiles.

That'd be underpowered. :crazyeye:

I think Creative is very weak. You can get culture in so many places. Also as I get to higher and higher difficulties, I find myself delaying that first city more and more (to make sure my economy is sound.) Further increasing the chance of being able to acquire culture elsewhere.
Cultural buildings are fairly inexpensive...For a city that is already somewhat developed. For a size 1 city, even a monument takes 30 turns. I'm not completely sure how many turns after the monument is built it takes for the culture pop, but it always seems to take forever when you're waiting to get your first horse/copper hooked up.

Also, as someone who primarily runs a specialist economy, I'm scrambling for Great Prophet points anywhere I can get them. So even on the lower difficulties, I'll aim for Stonehenge even if I'm not industrious.

it seems to me that priests are a dime a dozen. Don't you think that hammers spent on SH could be utilized for more important uses? Workers? Settlers? Recon/Military?
I'm not trying to turn this thread into anti SH, but I personally build it only in two circumstances: 1. I have a charismatic leader, or 2. My UB is a monument.

My mistake, that could easily escalate. Not to mention coast/sea tiles! A single hammer would be nice, but what with Moai and Levee...

Perhaps limiting "Resourceful" to only give +1 Hammer on river-less Tundra, Snow and Desert tiles. That'd hardly imbalance anything. I'm excluding river tiles, since they can otherwise be fitted with a nice Watermill.

And "Agricultural" limited to only give +1 Food om the tiles mentioned above.

So in essence they would only give a bonus to otherwise uselss tiles.
I would actually think more of 1/1/1 on ice, desert and maybe tundra tiles. That way, you can't base a city on them, but you could get some use out of them in your BFC. The problem is, they would still be normally trumped by specialists (once there is some infrastructure).
Or make it so that you can build improvements on these terrains.
That would be my idea of resourceful, able to make use or land that others can't.

I'm currently making an expansion and it needs one more trait to avoid duplication. I'm learning python and can edit basic xml so it should cover a lot of things. There will be six new civilizations coming, 8 leaders for existing civs, 3 new wonders (TBD) and major changes to diplomacy and espionage with diplomatic units.

My new trait ideas are
Resourceful:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers
double production of power plants (coal, nuclear, hydro, SOLAR (new))

Strategic:
-20% espionage cost
promotions to Mounted, Armored units
double production of Airports, Drydocks

Diplomatic:
+2 bonus to all relations with all civs
Scouts/Explorers can explore rival territory

Please weigh in with adjustments or your own suggestions on some new traits.

I'd combine the diplomatic and strategic ideas: I would give just +1 diplo free, with possible ways to earn more. The minus on espionage costs sounds fine. Instead of allowing scouts to violate borders, reduce the costs for passive espionage as well as the active.