Commanding Officers and Broader Alignment

THIS MOD IS NOT RELEASED YET!
I posted this preview because I want your input and help!
Please post. Here comes some information.

Commanding OfficersCommanding Officers is a new layer of Leaders who command your armies.
Basically, think of them as leaders that don't deal with other leaders, give your Main leader (mostly military) Traits, and that can be switched from time to time. (Atm I am thinking 1 turn anarchy and 50 turn period between changes)
For the FfH version of this mod (which I'm making first), the commanders will have a Unit that represents them (and an option to disable commander units) in the battlefield. This unit will be the only unit that can cast the World Spell (unless you turn off the commander units) and if killed you will lose his traits.

Eventually I am hoping to add a system where Commanders can get better, perhaps multiple steps of traits e.g. Aggressive I, II, III, etc. And possibly make the commanders gain great magics and other skills (think General abilities in C&C Generals, only Fantasy).

I am going to be able to make some leaders religion specific, alignment specific, etc. For example, Bambur could be a Commander as well as a Hero unit. I want to make some commanders unlocked by researching techs. Some heroes are first come first served (like the free specialists), etc.

An idea I had was to bring back the Great General mechanism and reward the player with a Commander at every step. Or maybe increase the current commander's potential.

Some Leaders from FfH2 are now only Commanders, and some are both Commanders and Leaders. For example, Amelanchier and Thessa are now only commanders, while Charadon is both a Commander and Leader.

I've also made a new Civilopedia page which you can see in one of the screenshots

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173296&stc=1&d=1207346081
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173295&stc=1&d=1207346081
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173299&stc=1&d=1207346121
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173297&stc=1&d=1207346081

Broader Alignment (Only name I could think of during development, please help me come up with a new one if you think needed)Broader Alignment is a value from -511 to +511, where -511 to -171 is Evil, -170 to +170 is Neutral, 171 to 511 is Good, this makes 341 steps per alignment.

What affects Broader Alignment?, you ask. Well let me tell you;
- Leaders
- Commanders
- Religions
- Civics
- and Events

The Leader alignment modifier is your Base alignment. Your Commander might then modify your alignment a bit, for example Amelanchier will make your alignment as Arendel go from 197 to 150. Thessa won't make you go Neutral currently, cause I wanted Arendel to have the option to stay good and I didn't want to add Arendel as a commander.

Civics and Events will be the main specialization factor. Religions will act almost like they did before, depending on the leader, for example, Falamar won't go evil with OO, but Hannah will (depending on other factors of course).

__________________________________________________ __________________

Fall from Heaven 2: Commanding Officers
with Broader Alignments (might need a better name)

Changelog
by Grey Fox
__________________________________________________ ________
Version 0.12 - Started 04/04/2008

Notes: Started conversion from my makeshift 0.31 to real 0.31

__________________________________________________ ________
Version 0.11 - Started 04/03/2008

Notes: Started adding Broader Alignments, Broader Alignment is a value from
-511 to +511, where -511 to -171 is Evil, -170 to +170 is Neutral,
171 to 511 is Good, this make 341 steps per alignment

Additions:
- Adding the iAlignmentModifier to Civ4LeaderHeadInfos.xml, CIV4ReligionInfos.xml,
CIV4CivicInfos.xml, and to CIV4CommanderInfos.xml
The following attributes need to be modified based on input from Kael, the developement team
and the rest of the FfH2 community. I based them on how the religions change alignments in the current implementation.
- RELIGION_LEAVES iAlignmentModifier set to 0 (meaning it won't change your alignment)
- RELIGION_THE_ORDER iAlignmentModifier set to 256
- RELIGION_OCTOPUS_OVERLORDS iAlignmentModifier set to -128
- RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORPH iAlignmentModifier set to 128
- RELIGION_THE_ASHEN_VEIL iAlignmentModifier set to -256
- RELIGION_THE_EMPYREAN iAlignmentModifier set to 192
- RELIGION_COUNCIL_OF_ESUS iAlignmentModifier set to -192
Basically, Leaves won't change your religion, Order and Veil will bring you quite a bit towards
their alignments, RoK and OO will bring you half as far, and Empyrean and CoE in between.


With the leaders I set Barbarian at halfway from neutral to max evil,
Sabathiel at halfway from neutral to max good, every good leader after
Sabathiel I reduced with 24, which is 1/7th of 170. And 170 is half of
341, and each alignment has 341 steps (check Notes above).
These will also need input, but I based these values on what order the
civs are placed in the selection list, which obviously is from Good to
Evil.
- LEADER_BARBARIAN iAlignmentModifier set to -245 (Same as Sheelba)
- LEADER_SABATHIEL iAlignmentModifier set to 341
- LEADER_VARN iAlignmentModifier set to 317
- LEADER_ETHNE iAlignmentModifier set to 293
- LEADER_BASIUM iAlignmentModifier set to 269
- LEADER_GARRIM iAlignmentModifier set to 245
- LEADER_BEERI iAlignmentModifier set to 245
- LEADER_CARDITH iAlignmentModifier set to 221
- LEADER_ARENDEL iAlignmentModifier set to 197
- LEADER_ARTURUS iAlignmentModifier set to 72 (Should Arturus be closer to good than Kandros?)
- LEADER_KANDROS iAlignmentModifier set to 72
- LEADER_SANDALPHON iAlignmentModifier set to 48
- LEADER_FALAMAR iAlignmentModifier set to 0 (And the COMMANDER_FALAMAR is set to +24)
- LEADER_CASSIEL iAlignmentModifier set to 0
- LEADER_RHOANNA iAlignmentModifier set to -24
- LEADER_VALLEDIA iAlignmentModifier set to -48
- LEADER_HANNAH iAlignmentModifier set to -72 (Should Hannah and Falamar have the exact same alignment, it feels right to have Hannah more towards evil?)
- LEADER_CHARADON iAlignmentModifier set to -197
- LEADER_MAHALA iAlignmentModifier set to -197
- LEADER_KEELYN iAlignmentModifier set to -221
- LEADER_PERPENTACH iAlignmentModifier set to -221
- LEADER_SHEELBA iAlignmentModifier set to -245
- LEADER_FAERYL iAlignmentModifier set to -269
- LEADER_ALEXIS iAlignmentModifier set to -293 (Should Alexis be more evil than Flauros?)
- LEADER_FLAUROS iAlignmentModifier set to -293
- LEADER_OS-GABELLA iAlignmentModifier set to -317
- LEADER_HYBOREM iAlignmentModifier set to -341 (Should Hyborem or Auric be the evilest?)
- LEADER_AURIC iAlignmentModifier set to -341 (Should Auric be eviler than Skeletor?)

All leaders above follow the pattern I described above.
There is also a small gap between Neutral and the other two. But that is as it should
I think. The odd one in this group is Hannah, which differ quite alot in alignment from
her leader partner. But I feel I got her alignment down quite right. With Octopus Overlords, she'll
go Evil, but Falamar won't. Everyone at 24 to -24 won't change from neutral with just
RoK or OO.

- COMMANDER_AMELANCHIER iAlignmentModifier set to -47 (so that using Amelanchier will make the Ljosalfar Neutral at the start)
- COMMANDER_THESSA iAlignmentModifier set to 0 (so that Ljosalfar can still be Good)
- COMMANDER_FALAMAR iAlignmentModifier set to +24

For Civics I did the following: (As with the others these need input and testing)
- CIVIC_CONSUMPTION iAlignmentModifier set to -4
- CIVIC_LIBERTY iAlignmentModifier set to +4
- CIVIC_SLAVERY iAlignmentModifier set to -16
- CIVIC_MILITARY_STATE iAlignmentModifier set to -4
- CIVIC_CONQUEST iAlignmentModifier set to -4
- CIVIC_SACRIFICE_THE_WEAK iAlignmentModifier set to -24
- CIVIC_FEND_FOR_THEMSELVES iAlignmentModifier set to -12
- CIVIC_PROTECT_THE_MEEK iAlignmentModifier set to +12
- CIVIC_PUBLIC_HEALERS iAlignmentModifier set to +24
- CIVIC_OVERCOUNCIL iAlignmentModifier set to +16
- CIVIC_UNDERCOUNCIL iAlignmentModifier set to -16

- Added the iPrereqBroadAlignment attribute to Civ4EventTriggerInfos.xml.
- Added the iAlignmentModifier attribute to Civ4EventInfos.xml.
- Added the iAlignmentModTowardsNeutral attribute to Civ4EventInfos.xml. I think it's self explanatory.

__________________________________________________ _________________
Version 0.1 - Started 04/01/2008

Notes:
- Since I forgot to download 031 SDK, I manually updated 03 to 031
based on what was changed in the XMLs and the few cpp files from
the Alignment Option mod made by Sto

Balance Changes:
- LEADER_ALEXIS is now Philosophical/Expansive
- LEADER_FAERYL now has no traits
- LEADER_OS-GABELLA is now Spiritual
- LEADER_HYBOREM is now Barbarian/Fallow
- LEADER_AURIC is now Agnostic/Spiritual
- LEADER_VARN is now Creative/Financial
- LEADER_CARDITH is now Expansive/Philosophical/Sprawling
- LEADER_CASSIEL is now Agnostic/Industrious/Philosophical
- LEADER_FALAMAR is now Expansive
- LEADER_HANNAH is now Financial

Cosmetic:
- Made a leaderhead image for Orthus.
- Added a Commander section to the Civilopedia.
- Redesigned the Civilization page in the Civilopedia.
- Changed the name of the Raiders trait to Raider, to fit more in with the other
traits, which descripe a leader personality trait not a people trait.

Changes:
- Commented out all calls to CyGame().getWBMapScript(), since I am not
sure how that function is constructed. The game won't need these calls
anyways, since they are just preparations for the Ice scenarios And I
will remake this mod with 031 or the most recent version as soon as I can.
- Removed Amelanchier as playable leader
- Removed Capria as playable leader
- Removed Dain as playable leader
- Removed Einion as playable leader
- Removed Jonas as playable leader
- Removed Tasunke as playable leader
- Removed Tebryn as playable leader
- Removed Thessa as playable leader

Additions:
- Added the Alignment Option mod, made by Sto
- Added new Trait; Horde - adds March promotion to all Melee units
- Added the file CIV4CommanderInfos.xml
- Added the file CIV4GameText_Commanders.xml
- Added the file CIV4ArtDefines_Commander.xml
- Added the Alexis Commander as Aggressive
- Added the Amelanchier Commander as Defender/Raiders
- Added the Auric Commander as Charismatic
- Added the Basium Commander as Aggressive/Raiders
- Added the Capria Commander as Combat Engineer/Industrious
- Added the Cardith Commander as Adaptive
- Added the Cassiel Commander as Adaptive
- Added the Charadon Commander as Aggressive
- Added the Dain Commander as Arcane/Philosphical
- Added the Einon Commander as Defender/Philosophical
- Added the Faeryl Commander as Arcane/Raiders
- Added the Hyborem Commander as Summoner
- Added the Jonas Commander as Expansive/Spiritual/Horde
- Added the Mahala Commander as Raiders
- Added the Orthus Commander as Aggressive/Horde
- Added the Tasunke Commander as Aggressive/Raiders
- Added the Tebryn Commander as Arcane/Summoner
- Added the Thessa Commander as Arcane/Expansive
- Added the Varn Commander as Adaptive
- Added the file CIV4ArtDefines_Commander.xml
- Added the Luchuirp Commander (placeholder)
- Added the Khazad Commander (placeholder)
- Added the Sidar Commander (placeholder)
- Added the Falamar Commander as Charismatic
- Added the Hannah Commander as Raiders
- Added the Balseraphs Commander (placeholder)
- Started adding a Commander screen, not yet functional

Way nifty. The Commander Selection screen almost looks like customizing your deck for a CCG ;) Actually this would be pretty awesome if you also tied it into the Trophy System (when it finally exists) to force you to beat a commander in the field in order to use him in future games. And of course new custom commanders can be made to only appear in the field after you get certain trophies.

(ie - Acheron never appears until after you have defeated Orthus at least once and are then able to use him as a Commander. Barbatos never appears until you have beaten Buboes at least once...)

Very nice.

I'll probably steal your Broader Alignment changes for my modmod. I'm still ambivalent about the commanding officers. At first I didn't really like it, but I think it is actually growing on me.

I don't really like getting rid of so many real leaders though, and I think if it is included there definitely need to be many more commanders available. I'm not a fan of having the same person be leader and commander, except maybe in regicide games.

I don't really like getting rid of so many real leaders though, and I think if it is included there definitely need to be many more commanders available. I'm not a fan of having the same person be leader and commander, except maybe in regicide games.

Yeah, there will definitely be more commanders. I could need help with the Lore for what commander would fit for the civs.

I'm thinking a Centaur General as one of Kuriotates starting generals. And at least one other. And leave Cardith as a leader only.

Cassiel definitely needs some commanders. I don't see him as a person leading the armies. But then again, he is Adaptive (which is his Commander trait atm).

I would like at least 2-3 starting commanders for most civs.

And btw, please tell me which should still be leaders. I might have cut too deep here, but I kinda like it. For example Tebryn is only a commander now, good bad?

Should Mahala be only a commander? Charadon seems like a despot here and not a person who would share leadership.

I am going to include a Regicide option as well, in this your leader will be represented by a unit, and if he/she dies, well you lose. (and maybe an option for a different kind of regicide, where you just lose your traits).

And I kinda like it when a leader can be commander as well. For example; Use Hannah as leader and you have a Financial Lanun, use Falamar as Commander and you are Charismatic. (I might split Charismatic into a Leader trait (+happy and something) and a military trait (Less xp needed), good or bad?)


What religious figures from the Lore could become commanders? I'm talking Heroes and people not appearing in the mod (except maybe in the pedia entries).

Hmm...I was just thinking, maybe all the current national heroes should become commanders.

I was thinking it could be cool if Govannon gave a trait that let all your units get adept promotions, instead of using his train spell. You could make all the spell sphere promotions available to all unitcombats so long as the unit has channeling 1, and make the trait give channeling 1 to essentially every unit.


It might also be good for Religious Heroes to be commanders too. You would still lose them and their trait for converting from their religion. Preferably, this would give another leader of the proper religion a chance to gain the commander, traits and all. For example, Yvain might have a trait that gives all units subdue animal and/or nature 1. Rosier's could give all your units scourge. Valin's could give everyone courage or valor, and Sphenor couls grant a new "anti-HN" promotion. Hemah would have a Dreamer trait that triggers all kinds of random events.


This would require some bonus for Agnostic civs though. What if Cassiel lost his adaptive trait, but each Adventurer let you choose an additional trait? ( I don't think that being adaptive actually fits Cassiels personality, since: "The symbol of Cassiel and his grey king, both as stubborn as the beasts they represent. Such devotion will not serve you here. Wisdom and patience are more suitable traits for a dangerous age.") It could be hard to keep track of what to remove when an adventurer dies though.



A Centaur General would be good for a Kuriotates Commander. I was thinking of adding one as a second leader in my modmod. In my version I claimed that the Centaur had adopted Cardith when he was very young, perhaps even before Eurabatres found him. He is an old, wise, mostly good leader now, but that was not always the case; he took care of Cardith out of guilt over having murdered him parents when he lead a group of centaurs to raid him defenseless home in his wilder past. That fits with well the normal theme of centaurs as liminal beings I think


I'm thinking that the second Hero I added for the Council of Esus would be a better Svartalfar commander. I said that Tsvarlain the Druid bane was the illegitimate son of Kyorlin and Arendel (born shortly before the age of ice began) and the apprentice of Yvain, but he fell desperately in love with Faeryl and converted to Esus to try to win her over. He remembers the teachings of Yvain, but has abandoned them to become the premier assassin and illusionist (he especially excels as casting glamors over himself, which he first learned because he was ashamed of the numerous AoI-type magical birthmarks that cover his body, and the fact that his human lineage makes him less fair than his kindred). He is especially good at posing as Yvain, and had not Cernunnos intervened to free the real Yvain from the trap he left him in, he would probably have succeeded at killing his mother and preventing the body of Sucellus from being reassembled.


Of course, those are just things I made up, and they don't really fit with what lore has been revealed since I wrote them.


Vaghan of Lugus might be a good commander. He is found in the Abashi civilopeida entry, and currently appears in the game as a great prophet. (My modmod had made him a second Empyrean Hero)

This is probably a thought beyond the scope of the mod but you know what occurs to me, with this system? You could create one Alfar race, and the svart or ljos part would be defined by which of the two leaders you chose - Summer or Winter. Dealing with the unique elements could be tied to commander or trait or something. But honestly, that's probably too wild an idea. It just strikes me as thematically neat. The elves are the elves, but there are two courts. And courts interact interestingly.

At any rate, I'll start thinking on leader/commander setups.

Oh, as a note, I think a key element is thinking about what flavors each civ should have. That's really what the commander dynamic is for, right? How can player choices deeply modify a civ in play. Hsm. Fascinating!

Here are some thoughts on civ flavors that might be appropriate or interesting. And then commanders could be plugged to those spots.

Amurites: Siege Magic, Arcane Philosophy/Enlightenment
Balseraphs: Army of the Bizarre, Insane Genius
Bannor: Holy War, Corruption of the Church
Calabim: Court of Immortal Hedonism, Plague of Blood, Ancient Wisdom
Clan of Embers: Savage Conquest, Maturing towards Civilization, Spartan Ideals
Doviello: Connection to the Land, Tundra Hordes
Elohim: Peaceful Spirituality, High Theological Court, Corrupted by Vision
Grigori: Secular Humanism, Adventuring Spirit, Self-Sufficiency, Innovation/Adaptation
Hippus: Mongol Horde, Cunning Mercenaries, Free-Spirited Nomads
Khazad: Xenophobic Cave-Dwellers, Greedy Miners, Practical Craftsmen
Kuriotates: Court of Beauty, Pawns of the Dragons, Melting Pot
Lanun: Merchants, Pirates, Explorers, Farmers of the Sea, Adventuring Spirit
Ljosalfar: Summer Court, Connection to the Land, Guerilla Warriors.
Luchiurup: Peerless Craftsmen, Obssessive, Ingenuity without Caution
Malakim: Desert Nomads, Surprisingly Inventive, Religious Zealots
Sheaim: Summoners, Forbidden Knowledge, Pervy Demon Lovers, Sacrifice
Sidar: Ascetic Discipline, Secrets of the Mists, Individual Brilliance, Surgical Warfare
Svartalfar: Winter Court, Connection to the Land, Misdirection and Illusion

My thought here is that various Commanders could create traits/abilities/whatnot that would highlight specific themes of a given civilization. These Commanders would also slide their respective civs up and down the alignment scale. A Svartalfar Commander who represented their proper connection to the Winter Court, for instance, might slide them closer to the good side of things. While the one who focused on subtlety and illusion would keep them on the evil side of the meter.

I like the above ideas. Have you considered a Lamia mage for the Kuriorates? I really like your commanders, they really add a new depth to the game. Great Job!

Sure I can see that. More ideas please!

(and if you got nice pictures to go with your ideas, please post them or links to them)

Well craps, I had a bunch of links to specific art pieces I thought worked well including an idea for which Civ and what kind of unit it would be, then I closed the wrong browser and lost the write-up :( So here are some of the galleries I was able to find again.

Saimain (http://saimain.deviantart.com/gallery/)
Mikhalid (http://mikhaild.deviantart.com/gallery/)
soys (http://soys.deviantart.com/gallery/#_browse)
feliciano (http://feliciacano.deviantart.com/gallery/)
jarling (http://jarling-art.deviantart.com/gallery/)
ironhenry (http://ironhenry.deviantart.com/gallery/)
njoo (http://njoo.deviantart.com/gallery/)
genzoman (http://genzoman.deviantart.com/gallery/)
Guro (http://guro.deviantart.com/gallery/)
namesjames (http://namesjames.deviantart.com/gallery/)
JasonEngle (duH!) (http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/gallery/)
kerembeyit (http://kerembeyit.deviantart.com/gallery/)


And unfortunately I never found the big green troll in a tutu that I used for the Insane Trait in my manual. Really wanted to recommend him for the Balseraphs :( But follow the links from each artists friends/favorites and you'll find FAR more art than you know what to do with :)

Wow, great idea. May I suggest a bit of tweak if its not too late:

1) Leave all current civ leaders as-is.
2) Come up with at least 3-4 commanders per civ, these can be generic ones until Kael suggests ones that can fit the lore better. For example, Centaur and Lamia for the Kuriotates, random elf for Ljosalfar, whatever commander for Bannor...
3) Commanders shouldn't have the same traits as the leaders. So I suggest you make 10 or so new traits, call em doctrines if you want (Frontal charge, massive wave, ambush and surprise, defensive doctrine, supply...) Raider trait could be removed from the leaders and given to commanders only.
Then fit the new traits to the commanders. Centaur commander would have a trait that gives combat 1 to all cavalry, while Lamia would give arcane to all adepts and small chance to give magic resistant or fire resistant or cold resistant to newly built units.
Massive wave would let you build units faster, supply would cut maintenance cost of troops and also let them heal faster, some trait would give flanking and/or mobility to your troops while other strength bonus, allowing different playstyles.
4) To make things even more interesting, let the foreign commanders join random civ's court if their civilization is destroyed. So you play the Malakim, orcs destroy the Hippus and you maybe get their cool commander that can teach your troops to move faster.

Good ideas. I have been considering keeping all the leaders as is. But some leaders just feel better as commanders (Amelanchier and Tasunke for example, but what do you guys think?)

I guess you wouldn't want some leaders to be commanders as well right? (Basium for example)


I was actually going to add the ability for Hippus to rent out their commanders to other civs (together with a few units) for X turns.

Impressed. Well, I remember the thread where leader units have been discussed.

And I still feel that division into commanders and leaders is an unnecessary complification. I believe it is better to make all of leaders commanders. One is preselected and gained at first turn, others are gained with techs, religion etc. as you plan. (Actually you even can join it with hero mechanism: "Duin Halfmorn of Elohim") Traits can be divided into civ specific and leader specific. The leader hero can be attached to the capital, immobile and, maybe, empowered in some way: e.g. can be attacked only if nobody else is in capital. It is important because I think AI will not be able to handle these new units and will easily lose them so new mechanism will weaken AI strongly which is already a great problem.

Good ideas. I have been considering keeping all the leaders as is. But some leaders just feel better as commanders (Amelanchier and Tasunke for example, but what do you guys think?)

I guess you wouldn't want some leaders to be commanders as well right? (Basium for example)


I was actually going to add the ability for Hippus to rent out their commanders to other civs (together with a few units) for X turns.

My personal preference would be that the Leaders are left basically untouched (except potentially for one of their traits to get moved to a Commander). This makes the mod very portable, after all. You get the very cool Commander dynamic without as massive an impact to the world you believed you knew!

For instance, with the Amurites, I'd keep Dain and Valledia. But I would add Dain's old field commander (Dain was a siege mage, if I recall) as an Aggressive or Raider Commander. And I might make Govanon's most promising student the 'golden age of magic' type commander.

It might be interesting if the additional trait the Commander gave you came at some kind of price. Like if Amairgen (making up a name for Dain's commander dude) gives you Raider, but makes your arcane units cost more or something like that. Or if, instead of Raider, he gives wizards the ability to bombard but raises the cost or weakens their summons. Maybe Govanon's student provides Industrious or makes city-building-spells (hope, inspiration, etc) last 3 turns instead of 1 if there isn't a mage in the city. Or creates summonable workers. But he drastically increases war weariness or the cost of non-magical troops.

Lots of suggestions for the Commander Traits are saying to have them apply promotions, but remember that the promotions will stick around when the commander is dead and gone (of course no new units would get them). Not overly vital, but good to keep in mind for balance IMO.

I do think you ought to keep all of the current leaders that you can. Never know which one was somebodies favorite until you cut it :) And you shouldn't have to remove the current traits if you figure out a way to make the traits stack when your commander has the same one (so double raiders means 2 extra XP per combat, 200% Gold from pillaging, and maybe Commando + Mobility 1.)

The other nice thing about making traits stack is then it is still worthwhile to go after a new commander that shares the trait of one you currently have. Though it can probably get a bit tricky to decide precisely how to have some of them stack after a certain point (like do you have Raider do Commando, Mobility, Mobility, Blitz? What after that? And at what point does Charismatic make you just pay 1 XP per level through to level 20?)

Good good. Keep it coming (I'm 26 today and I feel like I'm losing more and more of my stubbornness every year. If this was 10 years ago I don't think I would have budged as much from my original idea as I think I am going to).

Ok, I will probably keep all leaders as is, I will try to make basically only new commanders with perhaps some exceptions (not sure though).

The commander will be a 2nd in command style character, rather than a leading-role kind of character.

I like the idea of negative traits, but we can't overdo it in this regard, cause many civs already has penalties (e.g. Ljosalfar can't build siege units). So some Traits come with negatives to balance their strong positive boost.

The ways to get a Commander should be as follow:

Some starting Commanders for every civ
Techs
Religions (at techs I guess)
Heroes (not everyone)
etc


Questions:

How should the Commanders be rewarded from techs? First come, first served (like Holy Cities) or like Heroes, first to build the unit?
Should you get to keep Commander units even if you aren't using that particular commander as your Commanding Officer atm?
How should commanders improve? Through the Great Generals XP bar, or from it's own experience, or... what?
Should we make each random Great Commander (the Great Person unit) give you a random Commanding Officer? Or should we bring back the Great Generals so we have 2 kinds of military style Great people, or none of the above.


I need help with finding fitting commander personalities from the Lore. (Kael come back from Vegas!) If you want, please post snippets from some of the Lore if you find any that is useful. Can be from the Civilopedia or from some forum post by one of the team members.
I'd also like continued help with coming up with fitting Commanders which we design ourselves. These should fit in with the rest of the lore, work with the civ/religion/etc they are designed for, and be well-thought-out. A name suggestion is good, history and other lore about them are always welcome. Pictures are great.

New trait ideas are also welcomed.

Traits:
Conqueror: No war weariness, always at war with all other civs, no diplomacy, new military units start with +X XP, +X*5% military production, where X is a number of rival civs.
Xenophobic: -25% war weariness, -1 attitude from all leaders.
Expeditionary: All units can explore rival territory, +10% healing rate at neutral and enemy land.

-deleted-

Of course.

(And I'm probably not removing any leaders anymore)

I made a list of some potentail commanders-

Grigori- Carrow the Hunted
http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Crows-44532323
(Obvioulsy he would be removed as an Adventurer)
Available from Start
No Alignment Shift
Traits-
Expansive
Raiders

Infernals- Desolation
http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Bloodlines-30960793
Available at Start
Alignment Shift Toward Evil
ASTraits
Agressive
Arcane

Malakim- Prince Al-Hazrad
http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Dracul-24154408
Available at Start
Alignment Shift Toward Neutral
Traits
Raiders
Charismatic

Svartalfar- Taria
http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Witching-Hour-24153770Available at Start
No ALignment Shift
Traits
Summoner
Agressive

This looks great. The list by scaramouche is essentially every flavour I'd like to see for the civs' commanders.

(Rex, couly you make them links instead of just text?)

I think leaders should start as they are, and at game start, no commanders. That is, all Commanders should be gained through tech research, as unique civ heroes (unlocked by a tech) or as religion-based Commanders.

From a thematic level, I think at the start of a civilization, your nation is just too small to have so many chiefs, as it were. But once you start growing, you start to recruit Commanders to flesh out your leadership structure.

i agree with scaramouche... once your civilization has gone past the basic "survival" stage, then, there will be room for more than one commander...

Ogios the Stern

Trait: Arcane General

Provides Commando promotion to all new Arcane units
-10% War Weariness
+15% maintenance costs

Arcane units trained in a city where Ogios is gain +1xp upon creation
Requires Military Strategy

Many Amurites consider Ogios to be the greatest military mind in their history. A siege wizard without compare, Ogios is an ingenious tactician and an unforgiving commander. His training regimen, while expensive, produces some of the best assault wizards known to man (or elf or orc). Serving under Ogios is considered a path toward swift excellence and promotion. His most famous student and lieutenant is, of course, Dain the Caswallan, who has done extraordinarily well since, despite constant complaints about the rigors of serving under Ogier.

Amairgen, Master of the Caves

Trait: Speaker for the Dead

While Amairgen is Commander, Caves of the Ancestors provide +1 :science: and -10% maintenance
+15% War Weariness
Double production of Cave of the Ancestors

Requires Sorcery

Most promising of Govanon's students, Amairgen is a magical prodigy. Where others are often most interested in the practical applications of magic, Amairgen has remained committed to the theory and philosophy of arcane lore. Even as a child, he spent his time in solitary contemplation of the ancient secrets of the Caves of the Ancestors - taking more pleasure in the company of long dead wizards than in that of his peers. Recently, Amairgen has been named Master of the Caves, responsible for deciphering the most arcane of the secrets of the departed.

Ogios could be called Ogios the caswallen, as it is a title of extreme magical skill and prowess...

Problem. The title is acquired by defeating the last Caswallen in a lethal duel. Or if the position is empty in dains case.

If you could only have one at a time I think that might be good.

How about this one for a Balseraphs commander? (http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Darkwood-Vigilant-40005506)

Taleisien the Bard

I don't have dieas for the rest, but, yes, it's good.

It would be cool to have some religion-related ones as well, like a satyr commander for FoL.
For the Ljosalfar, a druid and a beastmaster would probably be best, who served both as commanders and as slightly beefed-up 5th druid/beastmasters.

How about this one for a Balseraphs commander? (http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Darkwood-Vigilant-40005506)

Nice! I like it quite a bit!

Willow's Sorrow

Picture: Lost Entwife (http://ironhenry.deviantart.com/art/Lost-Entwife-65448531)
Trait: Defender (stacks with Defender leader trait)
Doubles chance that treants will spawn in Ancient Forests
+1 :yuck: from any building that produces :yuck:
Requires Commune with Nature

The only female member of the Parliament of Trees, Willow's Sorrow is slow to anger but fiercely protective of her forests and their respectful dwellers. She is a staunch ally of the Ljosalfar and was honored by being chosen to give the prayer of blessing at Arendel Phaedra's birth.

Brennan Silveric, Summer Seneschal

Trait: Aristocrat

+1 :commerce: from farms
Double production of Theater, and all Palace buildings (main, Forbidden, Winter)

+50% to the culture-based defense bonus for all cities (ie. If a city's base culture-based defense is 30%, with Brennan as Commander, the bonus is 45%)
+25% War Weariness
Requires Feudalism

Brother of the famous hero, Gilden Silveric, Brennan is the Seneschal of the Summer Court. He is the very paragon of Summer virtues, epitomizing beauty, love, passion and courage. Rumors abound that he is having an affair with the Summer Queen. In secret places, the more informed whisper that Brennan's affair is not with Arendel, but with her sister, Faeryl Viconia.

Herne, the Autumn King

Trait: Huntsman

All controlled/subdued animals gain Heroic Strength I
Subdue Animals/Beasts chance increased by 5%
Fauns start with Woodsman II

Workers build improvements 25% more slowly
-10% War Weariness
Requires: Control of Song of Autumn (main temple of FoL)

Eldest of the Satyrs, Herne is approaching the end of his years. His halcyon days of wine, women and song are behind him and now he is left in the cool twilight between summer and winter. Embittered by his advancing years, he has taken on the role of Master of the Hunt and embraced the more primal elements of his domain. While this attitude certainly helps the various hunters and domesticated beasts of his followers, it also means that those who would work in his forests must spend extra time making the appropriate gifts and sacrifices lest they incur his wrath.

Nice, keep the ideas comming. I can't promise I will use them (maybe not as is if I do), but any idea is good.

Maybe this could be an OO Commander? (http://namesjames.deviantart.com/art/Brain-Lunch-44372436)

Nah just kidding :p

Here's a damn fine place for art:
http://www.epilogue.net/index.php

Losha:
http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=17037

EDIT: And how about instead of just spamming the thread with art I offer some feedback? Would the commanders in general require any civics, or have civics not allow commanders? I can't imagine a pacifist civ having a standing general (unless they were really good at deception).

I think a useful trait would be one that eliminates city anger after conquering a city. That would work well for the Calabim commander. Vampires do have their way with people. Perhaps you could find a way to represent Losha's poisoning of the village, such as "liberating" captured cities, but with a catch. That sounds extremely complicated.

How about this one for a Balseraphs commander? (http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art/Darkwood-Vigilant-40005506)

The more I look at this one, the more he seems like a Svartlfar to me.

1ST this is awesome idea and awesome thread.

2nd here is nice pic for OO only lanun commander:

Carnan the Bloodbones
http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=92858

Req: Way of Wicked, Necromancy, OO state relig.
comes with like-dirge ship named "Siren" (strong ship like a dirge, no hero promos) and combat hero 7 str, use weapons + 1 death affinity, start with Carnans blade (+1 Death damage), autopromote "Iron" , boarding
Trait: Undead Master
-Gives 1 time access to spell "Call for Carnan Crew", can cast in capital for once, similar to Recruit (like commander or donal have) with difference that few undead (+1 per each 2 points of capital pop) warriors (drowns/Lunatics/Skeletons) come with +4 levels (10 xp)
-All undead get empower from him like golems from barnaxus.
+1 unhealth in each city
+free military units upkeep (same as for military state)

Infernal/Barbarian
Sailor's Dirge
trait: Call of the Sea...
all ships have the mobility 1 promotion,
all ships randomly spawn skeletons
+1 unhealthy in all cities

Thurg the Hermit
req: barbarien trait, education
Trait: Learned savage
+50% science
all units + 0 experience

Gurtha the Warfarer
Reqs: Barbarien trait,
all units cost no Upkeep when at war.

How about Arean Sethrail (not sure about the spelling), the mage mentioned in several AV and magic related tech pedia entries? He could be a religious commander (AV) giving a boost to your arcane units. Of course he should change alignment towards evil.

Broader Alignment modcomp has now been added here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=270553)

This sounds way cool. I can't wait to try it. Especially the broader alignments bit is great. I would like if alignment was influenced also by your actions in the game (as in, good civ attacking another good civ without "Casus Belli", that is without negative relations due to previous war, close borders, whatever) should slide you toward evil--more so if they're also following the same religion. Also, I would love if you could give the population of cities alignment. The default would be tied to culture--if 100% of a 6 pop city is culture:Elohim and the Elohim are at +511, then all of the population should be good, and if a pop 10 city has 60% Elohim (who are currently good) and 40% Grigori (who are currently neutral), then 6 pop should be good and 4 pop neutral. This would become interesting for happiness's sake: Protect the meek would only make neutral and good population happy (and evil population unhappy?), good population could have stronger war weariness (or, let's be crazy, context-dependent war weariness: if you wage a war of aggression against another good country, your good pop might become very unhappy, while your evil pop might become really happy). Additionally there could be peace weariness from evil pop: say you have really low relations with a good country next door and they're perceived as weak (power graph wise), and yet you do not go to war with them or anyone--your evil pop could view you as weak and become unruly. Pop alignment would slowly start to change when your realm alignment changes.

But maybe this is too complex. I don't know. I think I'd love it.

Those sound like very good ideas. Why don't you propose them in the [MODCOMP]Broader Alignment thread of this sub-forum? The Broader Alignment modmod is being made first, and will be available alone. There has already been one release, and he is getting close to a second one.


Having war and peace change alignment is a great idea. I'm pretty sure it is possible, even if you have to resort to random events with python requirements to do it.

Having citizens have their own alignments sounds very interesting, but I'm not sure how feasible it is.

Very interesting ideas indeed. It would be nice for all diplomacy to have some change of Alignment. making demands causing you to go Evil, gifting free stuff making you good. Taking a trade at a loss, makes you good, pushing to make a trade in your favor, evil. That one could be a bit hard though, and if you allowed the changes to happen for just reccomending a trade (+1 Evil for even suggesting he give you 5 Cities for 1 :gold:) then exploitable to make yourself Evil at any point you want to.

If the population were to have alignment of their own, I would go a step further and say that if you are +512 (purest good) & 100% Culture in the city, then all population is Good. But if you were only +360 something (mid good) & 100% culture in the city, then half the population is Neutral, and half is good. (this would of course require far too much processing to be worthwhile though, unless a great many events or other mechanics were tied to Population Alignment.)

Yeah it sounds good, but a bit too complex for me to start working on atm.

If it's any help as an idea the game Europa Universalis (III I think I played as the demo) allowed you to hire advisers (in various fields) who were IIRC randomly offered throughout the game. Each advisor cost different amounts and gave different bonuses. Perhaps you could use this mechanic for hiring military advisers.

I just wanted to say that I might release a first version of this mod this weekend.

Here is some updates:
Commanders can get Strategic and Tactical experience. You get this experience from combat with other Empires, and not the barbarian civilization.
Strategic Experience goes towards the Commanders Strategic Level. Each time you gain a level in strategy, you can promote one of your traits. This is not your commander unit's level.
Tactical experience is divided into 7 subcategories;
Shock Tactics
Formation Tactics
Cover Tactics
Fortification Tactics
Siege Tactics
Harrasment Tactics, and
Guerilla Tactics
When you gain a level in one of these tactics, the Drill promotions gain a bonus. For example: If you have level 1 in Shock Tactics, Drill I will provide +10% vs Melee units, a long with its normal bonuses.
Each Commander have 4 Traits. They start with 1 of them at level 1, and the other three at level 0. At level 0 they don't provide any bonuses, but are available for promotions when you level up. Traits can give the commanding unit passive or active abilities, or give you empire wide bonuses.
Each trait have 4 levels, 0 to 3. So 3 actual levels.
Organized trait can switch commander without getting any anarchy. The same is true with the civic Military State. The current time between commander changes is 50 turns on normal speed. I might add some wonders that reduce this timer, to make it possible to switch in and out of commanders if you aim for that possibility.
Experience and Unit promotions/levels are saved when you switch commander, but you can only use the Commander Unit when you are using that commander.Hope that will be enough for now. If you want to help me with designing commanders, remember, 4 Traits, 1 starting trait. The starting trait should be a defining characteristic of the commander in question, and one of the traits should be a special trait, requiring a certain Strategic level before you can take it. 4,5 or 6 or so. Sometimes each level of a trait might be like this, Level 1 require Strat lvl 3, level 2 require strat level 5, and level 3 require strat level 7.

What are the traits they can get?

i think you can make some of them up, since they wont be normal traits since these are to be separated into 3 levels

Most traits are unique to the commanders, some commanders share some traits. But basically, the traits are basically either passive or active abilities of the commanding unit, or nationwide bonuses. Each step of the trait usually boosts the bonus of the trait in some way.

Anyways, a question to you all. To avoid confusion, should the Commanding Officers be renamed Generals, or Field Marshals or something like that instead of Commanders?

Removed outdated post.

I just want to post and say I am sorry for not uploading the mod this weekend, but the truth is that it's just not playable yet.

Catch ya next time.

A suggestion: You can mix traits among commanders, you don't need every trait to be unique. So Nievell the Saviour's call to glory can also be a trait of Valin or Sphener, Siege Warfare of Bambur... The same way that leader traits are distributed among leaders.

*poke*

Is this modmod still alive?

Well, I believe that Grey Fox has said that he doesn't intend to do anymore work on the Broader Alignments part (although Xienwolf and Vehem will, as it is part of FF). I don't know if he is still working on Commanding Officers, but he might be. From what I hear, he only has internet access for a short time every couple months, so you may not get a response anytime soon. If he is working on it, it will probably be a lot better when he comes back.

Well, I believe that Grey Fox has said that he doesn't intend to do anymore work on the Broader Alignments part (although Xienwolf and Vehem will, as it is part of FF). I don't know if he is still working on Commanding Officers, but he might be. From what I hear, he only has internet access for a short time every couple months, so you may not get a response anytime soon. If he is working on it, it will probably be a lot better when he comes back.

He did mention it last time I saw him in #erebus (couple of weeks ago) - so I don't think it's over yet...

Yeah I am still working on it. Working on converting it to 0.33 right now.

I cast rezzurection, not to be a douche, but because it sounds like a neat idea.

Well, I would recommend reading over the previous posts unless u are quite familiar with them. Now, I will say the rest of my post in the spirit of the thread, jumping right into a suggestion.

- I think their should be a commander slot, and a religious commander slot. And, agnostic civs, like the Grigori, would have 2 slots for military commanders.
- The Illians I think should still have the Religious commander slot, instead of a second military one, being the Three winter priests as switchable Relig commanders. Agantios, Rurios, and Dumanios.

Another option would simply be for the Illians to have three commander slots at all times, but only allow these commanders. THis would leave the Illians to be uncustomizable, but allow all three priests at a time, while having them be a commander, and maintain the Static feel of the Ice Sphere. Also, they would only gain this "commander" power upon re-establishment of the White Hand (the ritual that spawns the priests) instead of starting off with one and being able to gain a hero later.

Also, if each religious hero is connected as a religious commander, most likely a nation could only field one religious hero at a time.

Well, I suppose if having 3 commanders for the Illians is too much power if everyone else just gets a possible 2 ... you could make the third slot for other civs be the "trophy" commander, like Orthus, Barbatos, Acheron, ect. OR a domestic or economic "administrator" instead of a troop commander, Which would make the Illians the only nation with three -unit- subcommanders, while every one else has max of 2 unit commanders.

On the other hand, if you went with the trophy slot option, some commanders should probably not represent themselves. Ie Acheron. I would suggest a half-dragon Dragon disciple, that comes with a building in your capital called dragon shrine, which allows such shrine to be build in other cities, which enables the building of specialized orcish Dragon cult units. Or even just specialized units of your race that can upgrade to half dragons at tier 4. Each special unit would probably have a limit of one or two here, and I understand I am getting out of hand perhaps.

I think another Idea to implement the Acheron commander is by having a 4 limit on the Half Dragon disciples (which can fly and breath fire, I would imagine) only buildable by dragon hoard. And having Acheron as a trophy commander places the Dragon Hoard in your Capital. If this version has cult of the dragon initialised, the Hoard should probably have a high chance of giving any unit the cult of the dragon promo or religion.

In any event, Dragon disciples are generally arcane casters that gain physical attributes of the Dragon in order to become less vulnerable, perhaps even a tank caster, although their are probably easier ways to be tank casters, but these people are obsessed with dragons, or have some draconic blood already, ectetera (eventually becoming half dragon at the later stages). So I would imagine them starting with (hopefully the Dragon promotoin), but if not, then at least Earth II and Fire II, and maybe Air II just to represent their magical nature. Stone skin is definitley a must have, and all half dragon disciples have some fire breathing abilities. Nothing too powerful in ways of strength, but definitely stronger than archmages ... (well, I think there should be two phases) the first phase is stronger than mages, and only Fire II (unstead of meteor from dragon) and the second phase is stronger than an archmage with dragon race and flying. Both would get stoneskin and earth II of course, as well as arcane unitclass and channeling I and II, with the second phase getting channeling III as well. Honestly I see the second phase should be unlocked by Theology, to represent the religious (maybe obsessive?) nature of the cult, even though they are actually arcane casters. In any event, Theology feels more true for these cult leaders, as opposed to strength of will. It also gives intersting strategies to someone that focuses on a religious path with the Dragon subcommander.

Im not sure why Acheron would follow a mortal, but same goes with Orthus and Barbatos, and they are "trophies" after all. Maybe an option to dissallow trophy commanders

But expanding on that thought, it would be nice to see a dragon lead an empire, and not the Kuriotate kind, but more of an Obsessive, Megalomaniac, Charismatic cult leader kind of like Khad, but a dragon, probably Chromatic dragon, green or red. A dragon that wants power and highly enjoys having followers, in addition to being charismatic and headstrong. Probably a character that might not really *want* to bring back the gods war, but has a strong habit of bending and breaking as many rules as possible, in order to make erebus is own personal playground. I would guess he would have a gladitorial type building for Pit fights, similar to the Balseraph arena. Only these are usually more pride oriented battles between followers of the cult, putting on a life or death display for their Draconic leader. It may bet too similar to the Doviello duel system, but I think it must require the Arena/ Pit fight building in the city, and be a fight between two units with Cult of the Dragon religion. Probably give a small (or large) bonus to the winner. Probably depending on how good the leader is, But I digress, I beilieve I have gotten far off topic already and may or may not be wasting your time at the moment. However, suffice it to say that I definitly like dragons, and would like to find some way for just a couple more of them to enter erebus.

With dragons, less is more. They are awesome because they are so rare and difficult to get your hands on.

Hopefully I'll get the time and energy to make something out of this in the future. I think I will simplify what I had planned though.

Just wanted to say that I'm currently working on this for FfH2 41G.
I've updated it and I'm currently working out some kinks and then I will streamline the design some and finish up whatever is missing to make it "playable".

So expect a first version release pretty soon.

EDIT:
Oh, and I will probably be calling it "Field Marshals". Good name? I think it fits.

awesome news, thanx :)

I take full responsibility for reminding you about this mod. :goodjob:

Really though, great news! Can't wait to steal it. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/solidazure/FieldMarshals.jpg
A bit updated screen. Some errors here which I've fixed since I took it, but you will have to make due with this :P

Any ETA? :goodjob:

whoo-hoo, looks great!

so, would a melee unit be more likely to train in formation tactics, a cavalry engineer more likely to train in harassment tactics, and an archer unit more likely to train in fortification tactics?

Also, would seige tactics for a melee unit be equivalent to bonus on city attack, like city raider?

Looks awesome :D

Yay, I've been waiting for this since before I joined the forums.

Aren't there a good amount of minor leaders that could be used? I'm sure there is a list somewhere...

I started a new blog today, I will be posting previews from this mod and other stuff there.
You'll find it here: http://greyfox.me/

I'm also going to move my FfH comics there.

Some Field Marshals (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/09/field-marshals/) previews:

Gheroz Haan (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/09/field-marshal-gheroz-haan/) - Ashen Veil Batliere

Arin Reylew (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/13/field-marshal-arin-reylew/) - Combat Engineer

Willow's Sorrow (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/14/field-marshal-willows-sorrow/) - Treant Diplomat (Based on the idea by scaramouche (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6686314&postcount=32))

I updated the Arin Reylew (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/13/field-marshal-arin-reylew/) graphics today

I'm going to post previews for a few more Field Marshals this week. My goal was one per day so I'll try to catch up some during the week. Posting two tomorrow and one each day after that, with two field marshals on one of the days. If I can keep this up I will try and do the same thing next week.

I'll also update all posts with links to the original art and name of the artist in the future.

If you got any links to nice pictures that might work for my mod that be great.

Wow...love the new Commanders already. Cant wait for it

Didn't have time to post two field marshal previews today, so I'll have to try and catch up another day.

But here is one preview at least:

Victor the Conqueror (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/21/field-marshal-victor-conqueror/)

Wow, this looks like a lot of fun. I love customization and specialization. Do you have all of the ideas for the various field marshals all mapped out? From the looks of it, you are going to be creating at least one field marshal for each civilization and each religion, probably more. That is a lot. :eek: Could you create a few that are options only through random events or actions in game? Add a bit of a thrill when you finally get one.

Wow, this looks like a lot of fun. I love customization and specialization. Do you have all of the ideas for the various field marshals all mapped out? From the looks of it, you are going to be creating at least one field marshal for each civilization and each religion, probably more. That is a lot. :eek:

Yeah I've realized I will be creating lots of field marshals :D - and no I don't have them all mapped out yet. It's lot of design work which will probably require lots of testing by all you guys.

For the first version I intend to create 1 FM for every civilization and religion, plus a few extra free for alls. In the final version I expect there to be at least double that.

It might seem like a lot, but for any given game your choices between FMs will only be handful or two handfuls :P - since you are locked to your civilization and you will probably stick to one religion. So at any given time, in the final version you might have the choice between 2 (civilization) + 2 (religion) + 1 (Alignment) + X Free for alls (that might already be taken).

So 5 + X Field Marshals, where you probably want to invest in one for the benefits of an experienced Field Marshal. Add to the fact that they can die, and that if someone else is using the same religion they might snag a religious FM before you can. I think I might have 3 per religion where 1 require the shrine.

Could you create a few that are options only through random events or actions in game? Add a bit of a thrill when you finally get one.
Very good idea. I had plans for one FM that require an event, but that was an easter egg. :P
I will definately try make some Field Marshals require some events.
When you say actions, you mean like defeating Acheron, or destroying a civilization, etc? Had anything special in mind?

I definately still need ideas for Field Marshals, what their traits/abilities should do. And Pictures! I spend alot of time trying to find the perfect images for them. Also if you come up with ideas for traits, it helps if you suggest what the icon should look like, even more if you find some images that can be used. Even if only for reference or base.

And I need comments on the Field Marshals I've shown so far. Does their traits sound lame, extreme, too powerful, etc? You can post either here or in my blog, doesn't matter.

Do you think the AI is likely to be able to use this? I don't know much about the inner workings of the game but I would guess no.

I've programmed them to be able to.

The AI choose what Field Marshal to use (based on the ones that are available to them)
based on stuff like:

If they are already using one, it's less likely they will switch to another
They value how much experience their current FM has, as well as the one they are considering switching too (experience is kept, even that on the Field Marshal Unit)
They are less likely to switch when their strategy is peace
They value different Field Marshals depending on their current strategy
AI weights
Personal preference AI weights on the Leaders
Leader's favorite commander.
And a small amount of random value is added every time the AI considers to switch.


How well they use the unit itself is going to be up for testing, but should be similar to how well they use Heroes. I'll probably make them be a tad more careful with Field Marshals.

Their Strategic and Tactical xp is gained from every unit fighting, and they do fight with units.
When it comes to leveling their traits, it's similar:

AI weights and current lvl of the trait
Value from the free promotions the trait gives
Value from other stuff the trait does
And a small amount of random value is added


All the values will possibly require tweaking. The way they work is similar to how the AI already chose Civics, promotions, etc.

Ok that's fine. I quite dislike the name ''Field Marshals'' though. I don't think the name fits the FFH setting or many of the civs.

Also the whole idea seems a bit redundant with Heros too. Why not remove Heros and instead merge them into the field marshall system, which would be renamed to ''Heros''.

It's a bit of a radical move but I think it would be a good change. Not to mention you'd need to think up less on your own and find less unit art for them all.

Nah, I want to keep heroes as they are. I was going to make some of them Field Marshals as well, but changed my mind.

Field Marshal is a military officer, it's the highest rank in the armies in which it is used.
USA doesn't use it, they use General of the Army, or a 5-star General. George Marshall became the first American general to be promoted to 5-star rank, which might be why they don't call them Field Marshals - That would have been Marshal Marshall :D

A new preview for you all:
Ryger (http://greyfox.me/civblog/2009/10/22/field-marshal-ryger/) - Hippus Harassment Specialist

Instead of Field Marshals, might I throw out the name "Legends"? That is fairly vague (and thus broadens the options of figures that can be created, since there will be so many), highlights their importance, and is suitably fantasy-ish.

As for ideas for random events Field Marshals, using the guilds comes to mind. Leader of the Ratcatchers Guild and, although the name escapes me now, the guild that was created if you start to lose a war by an invading army. If you wanted to use killing Archeron, SOMEONE had to summon him and is probably still around in his city. Others could be defeating and getting Mokka, getting a goblin when you raze a fort, or undead spirit when you raze a barrow. This wouldn't happen every time, of course, but could be possible rare triggers.

Thing is I want them to be associated with control over the army. A legend can be anything.
They don't even have to have a unit associated with them, and some might not (but they all probably will). In the far future, I might even add a type to the "commander" entries so I can make Fleet Admirals, Great Statesmen, or whatever.

Field Marshal sounds more fantasy than General or Lieutenant or many other military ranks.

... although the name escapes me now, the guild that was created if you start to lose a war by an invading army.

The Brotherhood of Wardens, is was called. I hated that guild, but it could use some backstory.

I haven't done as much designing as I had planned. I took it easy this weekend and played games and stuff.
But I needed it. I felt a little sick and I felt like chillin ;) (Don't wanna burn out you you know)

But today I merged the mod with latest FfH2 patch, so its up to date with all the AI improvements and whatnot.

Still got lots of Marshals to design.
You got ideas?
Don't be afraid to post em!

I'm sure certain people will come up with ideas. :lol:

Idea? While I'd suggest all credit to (or consultation with!) KillerClowns, how about the commander (and/or other characters) of the Order of the Blank Banner from his fan fiction? That at a high level is an army, brigade, or whatever of tough nuts from other cultures assimilated in Elohim campaigns that are prepared to hold their noses and do what the more "love and redemption" type Elohim are not prepared to do... although the Elohim don't admit they exist.

I'm thinking in terms of some kind of ability to remain hidden (as per the Hidden Promotion?) when they're fortified and not on the move, I'm really leery of the HN promotion due to how powerful it is, but maybe it'd be appropriate in certain circumstances. Much like the several versions ago Clan of Embers, the idea of an autoraze on city capture would make sense as well, but just so you could prevent having a collection of units under the Blank Banner type commander do all the heavy lifting, but then a normal unit (whether in the same stack or not) conquer the city and keep it, maybe any time the Blank Banner guy was within 4-5 tiles of a city being captured, it'd autoraze (goodness knows how hard that'd be to code though!). Note that if these guys had some variant of HN, it'd be possible they couldn't even conquer a city in order to raze it, so whatever gets done to reflect the whole "secret army" vibe, you'd maybe want to get around that.

Requirements would presumably be Elohim race, and maybe Fanaticism or Deception techs, maybe something else fits though.

Anyhow, it's just an idea seed, inspired by someone else's fiction, but I think there's some promise in the idea, no? I hesitate to take it too far without someone like KC being consulted though.

Ok that's fine. I quite dislike the name ''Field Marshals'' though. I don't think the name fits the FFH setting or many of the civs.



yeah, Field Marshall is way too 1800's.

even though captain is not high rank anymore, the rank of captain used to be high.

The term general is quite an ancient term too, and commander would be good too.

Either way, this looks cool.

Commanders are already in the game. And I might add the commander system from FF eventually. Where the highest ranking commanders are Generals (well at least for the Bannor there).

Captain is a way too low rank. And General of the Army like what the Americans call their Field Marshal, is too similar to General.

Even if the Field Marshal term is relatively new, I think it fits. It has grown on me at least.
It was used on succesful generals in China and Japan from as early as 900-1000 AD.
In the Holy Roman Empire in 1600s~ if not earlier.

Yes but it doesn't sound right. This is a fantasy setting after all, and ''Field Marshal'' just sounds too American (whether it was used in the HRE or not). It's not about the rank, it's about the name. The only FFH civ that would use a name like Field Marshal IMO is the Bannor.

Personally, if it has to be something military-related I'd pluck a name out of the Ancient Era - Greek or Roman maybe. Otherwise, I'd just call it ''Character'' or something similar and include a wider range of people with different effects, like a Banker who increases Commerce or a Missionary that makes all missionary units start with movement 1 and 2. I think you are being too restrictive limitting this mechanic to just military-boosters. (a niche already more or less filled by Heroes anyway)

I like the Field Marshal name, honestly. ;)

I want the name to be understandable, and not just a fluff name. If I wanted something with fluff I would have chosen Stratarches, or something like that from greek.

But as it is, it's a name of a concept. Much like Commander, or Leader, or Civics. As you know, this is not dependent on any civ specific languages. The Embers might call their Commanders Buruk'ta´s for all I care. It still means Commander in english.

Field Marshall is German and English, not American. And it conjures up images of guys with sahses and ornate helmets with bunches of medals and a monacle and baton. I mean do a google image search, and you'll see.

He's said multiple times it's not an American rank. He even explained WHY it's not an American rank (First guy to reach it was named Marshal... Field Marshal Marshal?).

And like he said, it's a name that's been around for a long time, not just during the time you mention.... Those only come up on an image search because they were the ones around when cameras were invented. ;)

Besides, if it's the name he wants to use it's the name he wants to use. Not going to convince him otherwise. ;)

In german we have the distinction between Army (modern) and Heer (old/fantasy), so Heerführer would be the most fitting description. But I don't know if such a word exists in english. Probably General but that is already taken by BTS I think.

Yes Heerführer (same in swedish basically; Armé / Här - Härförare)
Swedish translation to english is Army Leader / General.

Field Marshal in german / swedish: Feldmarshall / Fältmarskalk.


http://greyfox.me/MainMenu.png


http://greyfox.me/Icon_256x256.png

well, I understand grey fox may want to make a large raking system of some sort, but I will make a final appeal for the term General. General is the most common used term for the leader of an army in English or any English translation, and it has been that way far before 900 - 1000 AD. It is the term used in Sun Tzu's art of war, by all known translations. Field Marshall simply conjures up the image of a man leading block napoleonic armies using gunpowder based weapons on flat battlefields. It really does.

One of my problems with General is that an army usually have several of them.
They are the leaders of an army group. The Field Marshal is their boss. The leader of the entire Military.

One of my problems with General is that an army usually have several of them.


kind of true, there are many ranks of general... but in more ancient times, there was only one. Only in multi-theater modern wars were there more, and even then, the Union general was Grant, and the Confederate General was Lee, there were more, but everyone knows and says that those were the two generals. Plus, as this mod is set up, a player may have multiple generals, although only one will be in charge.

In world war I, the US only needed Black Jack Pershing, but they promoted him to 5 stars so other foreign 5 stars would pay attention to him.

Also, if I am playing, just because I have a general sitting in my capital giving me bonuses, I will still probably consider my heros the real leaders. I also think general can be more aptly applied to non military commanders, like the treant leader.

You won't have multiple Field Marshals. You will have access to multiple. If you switch to one, your current disappears (after the transition time), and you have your new. The unit's promotions, levels (in everything from unit to strategic/tactical) is saved if you decide to switch back later.

Just stumbled across this thread and thought I might throw a couple ideas out there. Your mod, your rules, but here's a couple things you might consider instead of Field Marshal:

Legendary Commander
Warlord (or High Warlord)
Strategos - old greek rank "army leader"
Polemarch - from greek again "war lord"
High Constable - medieval rank, but I don't like this one

Personally, I kind of like the greek ones, but if they are too greek, I think the simpler "Legendary Commander" is a bit more in the fantasy realm than "Field Marshal," especially since many of the factions simply don't have the social and political structure required for such a formal, hierarchical rank.

What about something like archknight or archlord? Meh, not real words. :/

warlord doesn't work with the peaceful commanders, (general still does a pretty good job though... :P )

Regarding Hero suggestions....I was thinking that perhaps the Svart could have a fallen Priest of Leaves, who through a combination of turning to Esus and the lore learnt as a former servant of Succellus corrupts dark spirits in Treants. Perhaps would retain the Bloom promotion, could perhaps summon a panther (...effectively akin to a Tiger in terms of stats, but starts with Hidden Nationality?) and would have a Corrupt Ancient Forest ability which would/could create an enraged Treant for 3 turns.

(note - not sure of the mechanics of Ancient Forests but assuming forests don't grow to ancient forest if the civ has switched from FoL it may need a tip not to use this ability within own borders)

so i tried that pre-release and it looks very interesting ... :D ... i'm looking forward for final release

I'm not sure about barbs not giving ANY FM xp. They're 'just' barbs, but they can also take out civilizations... Maybe just give a small amount?

so i tried that pre-release and it looks very interesting ... :D ... i'm looking forward for final release

Where's that pre-release? :drool:

Team and #Erebus regulars only. ;)

There are definite perks to getting on to chat with us... You hear about what modders are doing ahead of time, you get to beta test, and you get to chat with awesome people. :goodjob:

Team and #Erebus regulars only. ;)

There are definite perks to getting on to chat with us... You hear about what modders are doing ahead of time, you get to beta test, and you get to chat with awesome people. :goodjob:

indeed ... :D

so true :D

thumbs up for #Erebus!