I have been employing this strategy for quite some time now

I delay researching scientific method so my monastries can still continue to function.

I finish off the rest of trees including Assembly line. Infantry before everyone else gives a huge edge.

I choose scientific method when its my only choice.

The drawbacks which i have noticed are is that Broadway or Kremlin maybe created by someone also someone may get that extra spy by communism.

I rarely research it. But I don't especially delay stealing or receiving it in a trade.

You have to be flexible to the game situation. Sometimes it is better to delay it, sometimes not.

Unless you're Philosophical with the Parthenon and the Great Library with 3+ Monasteries in your Science Cities, Biology is worth so much more than anything you're giving up.

Stalling technology doesn't help you. Real world example, look at isolationists Japan and China. They were leading civilizations until they stopped researching. Then what? POW NOTHING.

Unless you're Philosophical with the Parthenon and the Great Library with 3+ Monasteries in your Science Cities, Biology is worth so much more than anything you're giving up.What if you're running a cottage economy? My civs tend to have only one city with any farms whatsoever, and that would be my GP farm.

I tend to go for Electricity alot, though. My cottage economies often end up with quite a few windmills, and Electricity is what makes them truly come into their own.

Stalling technology doesn't help you. Real world example, look at isolationists Japan and China. They were leading civilizations until they stopped researching. Then what? POW NOTHING.

I play at prince/monarch levels

I am not talking about stalling tech i am talking about discovering it later than others.

I have noticed in the long run my research is actually faster because the monastries are still working.

True like someone mentioned Biology and Physics which leads to electricity have their pluses.

re Biology by the time you are deciding about scientific method your cities should be quite big already and i do prefer cottages. Plus i have noticed its more of a health issue in most cities by then.

re Physics loosing Broadway can be feel like a . .. .. .. .. . slap at times :crazyeye:

But man beelining to Infantry is truly amazing

especially if you have a few melee units with City raider 3

Research Assembly Line upgrade them to infantry

There is not a better time than that to go to war and capture cities :cool:

Well, if you're a builder and you've built monasteries in your SSC or wherever, then I would see a reason to stall learning it (it is stalling because Scientific Method is the linchpin to so many good techs). I never stall because I never build monasteries.

I stall as well. I find this creates a very short window between rifling and assembly line (meaning it's very expensive to upgrade my macemen/longbows to infantry), but I'd rather have that to deal with than losing the scientific power of my monestaries in a critical period of scientific research and the financial power of the Spiral Mineret to make the said upgrade of my troops.

I rarely even find the time to build monestaries, so Scientific Method never costs me much.

Scientific Method hurts me quite a lot. I usually go for Steam Power, Steel and Railroad before SM.

What if you're running a cottage economy? My civs tend to have only one city with any farms whatsoever, and that would be my GP farm.

Citizens that work mines starve without farms.

Research techs you would like to grab before others do, steal or buy the rest.

I delay it some time, but usually I want to find out if I have oil resources.

I stall as well, ESPECIALLY when I have the Apostolic Palace. Those +2 hammers help, especially in newer/smaller cities.

AFAIK, SciMeth obsoletes Parthenon, Monasteries and Great Library. As atleast two of these instances provide direct :science:, I find it viable to delay SciMeth. And since the AI tends to beeline Physics, I tend to go for Assembly Line and ignore SciMeth. First of all, you can easily kill them off with infantry, second, you can trade it away for SciMeth and some of the techs it leads to.
Third, GL + Parthenon often PUMPS OUT Great Scientists, and SciMeth kind of ruins this.

It is weird that Sci Meth can (by obsoleting monasteries and GL) decrease your research. Not exactly what you'd expect after discovering a method of vastly improving your science.

Here's a solution:

Sci Meth should obsolete monasteries and increase the costs of Org Religion and Theocracy.

Sci Meth should also give a 10% research boost to Observatories and Universities (Observatories should give 15% beakers before Sci Meth and 25% after it; Universities should give 20% before and 30% afterwards)

I delay researching Scientific Method for the reasons that have been given. However, if my espionage shows someone else starts to reasearch it, then I give up my reasons for the delay and go for it myself. I would much rather get the Great Scientist for Physics myself rather than have some AI get it. The Great Spy for Communism is another factor but not quite as important. However, I hate it when the AI gets that Great Spy and uses it to get a huge Espionage Point advantage over me. So, if the competitor is on the same continent as I, I usually put an emphasis on Communism as well. However, Biology is the main reason to get Scientific Method. I love Biology. I plan ahead where I put farms and how many I put there based on the fact that someday I will have Biology and make some of my good cities even better.

Biology is reason not to delay scientific method. That and I rarely build monestries.

As for the free GS for getting physics, it's to compensate for lightbulbing your way there. GS's are also a lot cooler than other GP's. Lightbulb: philosophy, paper, education, liberalism (get astronomy), scientific method, physics, electricity, radio, mass media, and you've got yourself a victory condition. It's around a dozen GS's, but you could do it if you're philosophical.

I always delay it as well because those monestaries can really add up. Not to mention I usually build the parthenon and the GL because of the AI's not prioritizing those techs. 5 monestaries in your super science city is 50% more beakers, that is a crap ton. I agree with the posters that scientific method should offer some scientific advantage, I suppose I can understand obsoleting monestaries but there should be some benefit that goes beyond unlocking the techs that follow.

I play at prince/monarch levels

I am not talking about stalling tech i am talking about discovering it later than others.

I have noticed in the long run my research is actually faster because the monastries are still working.

True like someone mentioned Biology and Physics which leads to electricity have their pluses.

re Biology by the time you are deciding about scientific method your cities should be quite big already and i do prefer cottages. Plus i have noticed its more of a health issue in most cities by then.

re Physics loosing Broadway can be feel like a . .. .. .. .. . slap at times :crazyeye:

But man beelining to Infantry is truly amazing

especially if you have a few melee units with City raider 3

Research Assembly Line upgrade them to infantry

There is not a better time than that to go to war and capture cities :cool:


I agree. I'm about to take on Caesar with my infantry and he still has rifles. The added strength and bonus against gunpowder units from infantry can overcome a big disparity in numbers. I really think it's silly that Scientific Method would obsolete the great library too.

What if you're running a cottage economy?

Citizen-workers on Cottages require food, too. ;)

Unless your entire empire is nothing but Grassland, Biology allows you to convert Farms into Cottages 2:1, since you only need half as many Farms per city to maintain the same population.

Plus i have noticed its more of a health issue in most cities by then.

Precisely the reason why you should want better Farms.

The :health: cap is 'soft', because exceeding it only affects +Food (as opposed to exceeding the :) cap, where a population point is completely wasted).

With Biology, the extra population point no longer 'eats' the Farm's +1 Food ... instead, it eats 1 and leaves the other (thanks to Biology) for growth, specialists or working previously unusable tiles (such as Tundra or Plains Cottages).

I rarely delay scientific anymore because i want communism asap. It's actually pretty rare for me to even research biology anymore unless i have a pretty big tech lead. I'll usually just trade for it, if i get it at all. I just replace those 3 food farms with state property watermills, so it'll be pretty rare for most cities to even need regular farms between watermills and windmills and food resources. I also want a shot at the kremlin, which i'm finding to be a game winning wonder when running a cottage economy at my current level of emperor.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. I usually rush scientific method because I *really* want to know if I have to beat someone up to get oil. Not having oil in the modern age is almost a death sentence, and scientific method tells you if you can relax or if you have to gear up for a major war before the game advances an age.

I usually stall, as I have both the Great Library and the Parthenon wonders + 2 or 3 monasteries per city, in most games, so I always take a HUGE hit with Scientific Method.

The extra food from biology does not compensate on it's own, especially as my cities are already at their health / happiness cap, so the extra food has a limited short to medium term impact.

I suspect the decision to stall or not may largely be down to what game speed and difficulty level you play at, what victory condition you are after, and what is happening in your game at that specific time period. I play at Marathon / Emperor - Immortal and make my "Go /No go" decision on SM when I discover "Rifling", and it's usually a "No Go".

N/B: Very good point about needing SM to see the location of oil, but aren't there rare occasions when you can see it's location before Scientific Method? Yes, I know you need SM to see oil, but on rare occasions I seem to remember seeing it on the map before discovering SM. Errr, yes I know that sounds nuts, and I may be hallucinating - LOL.

Regards - Mr P

For any carefully planned and tightly run economy, I find delaying Scientific Method does more harm than good:


If I am intending to run a Specialist Economy throughout the game, I need Biology. It's more likely that I will beeline Scientific Method than deliberately postponing it.

If I have enough cottages to justify the civics, I want a food corporation so I can cottage the entire map.

If I want to run a dedicated Hammer Economy, I need 2 out of 3: better farms, State Property-boosted improvements or a food corporation.

***

I might delay it if I have a disorganised economy that is doing fine as it is but has limited potential to go broken... which is becoming more and more rare.

It is weird that Sci Meth can (by obsoleting monasteries and GL) decrease your research. Not exactly what you'd expect after discovering a method of vastly improving your science.


It's like it should be. It leads to great techs, but as some of us are old-school leaders we think that we should research with the old fashion way: Using religious institutes.

...
N/B: Very good point about needing SM to see the location of oil, but aren't there rare occasions when you can see it's location before Scientific Method? Yes, I know you need SM to see oil, but on rare occasions I seem to remember seeing it on the map before discovering SM. Errr, yes I know that sounds nuts, and I may be hallucinating - LOL.

Regards - Mr P

There's a random event, which I've seen as early as the Ancient Era, that reveals all the oil on the map.

There's a random event, which I've seen as early as the Ancient Era, that reveals all the oil on the map.

Yeah, I usually only get it if I have a scout and that scout is directly over the future oil patch. I've had games where after scouting, I send the scout to such a desert tile and fortify him. Usually he doesn't find anything. I've been in the Modern Age before and noticed the poor scout still sitting there and doing his duty.

It's like it should be. It leads to great techs, but as some of us are old-school leaders we think that we should research with the old fashion way: Using religious institutes.

Upon reflection, fair enough :)

It also creates an "interesting choice" rather than an "obvious choice", which is a better result for gameplay.

There's a random event, which I've seen as early as the Ancient Era, that reveals all the oil on the map.

'The Man Named Jed'
If you are lucky enough to get this early, you can plan your conquests to take/keep the oil.

I have been employing this strategy for quite some time now

I delay researching scientific method so my monastries can still continue to function.

I finish off the rest of trees including Assembly line. Infantry before everyone else gives a huge edge.

I choose scientific method when its my only choice.

The drawbacks which i have noticed are is that Broadway or Kremlin maybe created by someone also someone may get that extra spy by communism.

I do this too (Monarch and 3 Emperor games). On Monarch it's easy to get 3-4 religions and all those monasteries provide lots of beakers. On Emperor I that's hopeless, but I prioritize the AP -- too dangerous to let it get away -- which means my monasteries are worth +2H, maybe more if I get Sankore or SM. Most recent game, following Snaaty's outline (see Strategy forum), got both.

'The Man Named Jed'
If you are lucky enough to get this early, you can plan your conquests to take/keep the oil.
*looks in XML*

My god, it's actually called that. That's hilarious. :lol:

Sci Meth should also give a 10% research boost to Observatories and Universities (Observatories should give 15% beakers before Sci Meth and 25% after it; Universities should give 20% before and 30% afterwards)

I think that is a very good idea. It would be also very logical that after the Scientific Method is discovered the research institutes should be much more efficient. In order to balance the issue those institutes could be less efficient before the Scientific Method.