Role Play Challenge: Charlemagne the Blessed II [Archive]

madscientist

Apr 06, 2008, 03:55 PM

Welcome to the replay of the RPC game, Charlemange the Blessed. There RPC games are meant to be fun and education trying to demonstrate a specific strategy/economy while maintaining an entertaining angle using the leaders, whether in historical fashion or based on the game's personality for them

The first Charlemagne game was a loss as it turned into a Shaka military monster campaign even though we did infact convert teh world to christianity!

Charlemange starts with two of the weaker techs in Mysticism and Hunting. The UU (Landsnekt) is a Pike with 100% versus Melee which is soso. The UB is the Rathus (courthouse) which reduces costs 75% and maybe the best UB in the game.

Charlemange's Rules

1) He must convert every city in the world to christianity by the end of the game. This may be done preferably by peaceful but may be done via the sword.

2) Charlemagne may found other religions, but MUST found christianity, and that is the ONLY religion he can accept as a state religion. He can ONLY shrine Christianity, although he will tolerate other religions in his kingdom.

3) He must win via diplomacy. Preferably by the AP although the UN is acceptible. This cannot conflict with rule #1 (He must spread the faith to every city). All other victory conditions are open for the AI to pursue though.

4) He can open borders with any AI to spread missionaries. If he cannot use missionaries, he must use the sowrd here.

5) Charlemange is tolerant of other religions, but is very protective of his people. So the following civics are not allowed

Free Religion (since he must stay in his state religion)
Mercantilism (he wants trade routes with others)
Slavery (He is a pious man and has no liking for this dirty business)
Nationhood (Because of his aversion to the Draft)
Police State (Unacceptible)

6) There is no restriction on wonders or GPs, although he should get the shrine for his religion.

7) Charlemange cannot refuse a request from a fellow member of the faith (except if it's against another faith member) or a former member (who get's out via FR).

Finally, no city razing is allowed (that option is turned on) under any circumstances. Even newly created cities that autoraze (inclusing barbs). If I inadvertantly do this, I must reload to correct the error.

Settings

Marathon Speed
Monarch difficulty
2 Hemisphere Map
Temperature climate, medium sea level.
NO choose religion
Vassals are off to avoid issues with spreading christianity to other AIs vassals

And our Blessed Leader

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIstart0000.jpg

And the Start

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIstart0001.jpg

Not a bad start.

OK, this time arround I plan to forget founding a religion and take Christianity via a Prophet Bulb if possible.

So I think agriculture/AH to start followed by archery/mining/BW then Stonehenge/Oracle wonder combo for teh GPPs.

What do you all think!!!

o-zoe

Apr 06, 2008, 04:15 PM

I'm not sure if it is a good idea to beeline :jesus: - curious to see how you plan to tech.

Capital isn't too great. 2 edibles, few hammers. I would definately consider moving towards the river.

In any case, here's a http://www.confuzion.nl/smileys/kiss.gif for good luck. So don't make me look bad by loosing! hahaha.

NintendoTogepi

Apr 06, 2008, 05:01 PM

I'd move the scout one SW and the settler one S.

See what is there, and if there is nothing bad then settle one east of the original starting position.

So for this game, try and get a huge empire going. I would reccomend perhaps wiping out one or two of the other civs on the continent.

Also, it's gonna be a %#%#$ spreading Christianity overseas...:mad:

Rex rgis of Ter

Apr 06, 2008, 05:15 PM

Actually, you should try and get more religions to prevent them from spreading. I'd go for Buddhism, then grab Judaism. Next, get Judaism to get Theology.

grandad1982

Apr 06, 2008, 05:15 PM

Rex it hard and fast and us you UB to haul your econmy back online.

Jaaboo

Apr 06, 2008, 07:31 PM

Hey Mad, sorry to hear about the last RPC. :( Grandad said exactly what I was thinking with his UB - rex like mad and get friendly with a stupid aggressor and make him keep your true rivals at bay. I guess you wanted to do that with Shaka. :(

Good luck!

Sim_One

Apr 07, 2008, 12:25 AM

Hey Madscientist, would you consider maybe trying to get Theology through the Oracle? I think it would be a lot faster and safer than waiting to pop a prophet. It should give you a head start on the AP as well. Anyway, the prereqs for Theology are Monotheism and Writing.

Killroyan

Apr 07, 2008, 01:16 AM

Dogpiled by shaka in your last game. Hehe, that is what you get if you keep sending your attack dog to fight with other civs and he keeps getting bigger. Lets hope it will go better this time. Not the best start but not a bad one either. 2 food resources and at least 3 hills so production will be good. Popping theology with the oracle is pretty cool I guess. That will give you your religion and a super headstart on the AP especially since you are going to build stonehenge and the oracle. The other AI will have very little chance of an early prophet. Good luck mate.

nbcman

Apr 07, 2008, 05:39 AM

Bad luck in the last game. This start looks pretty good with all of the forest for chopping.

I would send the scout 1 SE onto the grassland hill to see what is east of your settler. If there is nothing good to your east-settle in place. But I expect there will be something worth moving so your settler will either move 1E or 1SE to start your capital.

Depending on the research times and Worker production/tile improvement times, could you insert archery between Ag and AH?

Krikkitone

Apr 07, 2008, 12:34 PM

madscientist

Apr 07, 2008, 12:38 PM

I'd say a Key thing here is to make it a Diplomation win, since all cities will have Christianity, and you won't have an easy "enemy civ"

I'd go for a Priority (altered by terrain/neighbors)
Worker Techs/Archery/Oracle
CoL (Oracle)
Theology (Bulb) [Build AP]
Engineering
Feudalism

Pre-Engineering, REX peacefully and spread the Religion
Once Engineering Hits get complete control of your continent, Then tech for Optics, Liberalism->Astronomy, Rifling and Steel and get some Overseas Vassals

A technicality, we have to win diplomatically. One of those domination, we vote ourselves world dictator is fine.

Also Vassals are turned off. Charlemagne wants access to all AIs, no hiding behind some big thug.

BalbanesBeoulve

Apr 07, 2008, 12:54 PM

A technicality, we have to win diplomatically. One of those domination, we vote ourselves world dictator is fine.

Also Vassals are turned off. Charlemagne wants access to all AIs, no hiding behind some big thug.

If you turned off vassals then it's very unlikely you'll be able to get a diplo victory through military conquest. You can't vote yourself to a diplomatic victory if you have enough votes to vote yourself in. you need your vassal's votes.

madscientist

Apr 07, 2008, 01:36 PM

If you turned off vassals then it's very unlikely you'll be able to get a diplo victory through military conquest. You can't vote yourself to a diplomatic victory if you have enough votes to vote yourself in. you need your vassal's votes.

Woops, I keep forgetting that aspect of the UN. Good you told me now, we definitely need some friends! This could get very interesting!

r_rolo1

Apr 07, 2008, 01:44 PM

Technically you only need one friend... the rest can rot in hell :devil:

madscientist

Apr 07, 2008, 05:43 PM

Charlemagne The Blessed II : Part I

As Charles the Great looks out across his future empire at the prospects of finding the true faith. What he finds are some other AIs he doesn't like much

But the first order of business, where to settle.

Our scout revealed no great land to the east. To the West looks like forrest, so we moved 1 spot to east to settle on the river for later levee and easier trade route via the river.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0000.jpg

Build order for teh round went worker/scout/archer/archer

Yeah a short round, you will see why

Tech order went agriculture/archery/AH/partway through the wheel.

We also got a random event giving all archers free combat I. So we get combat I, CG I, Drill I for free in every archer!

One reason for the short rouns was the following

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0001.jpg

That is one annoying AI to deal with!

Then we meet another AI right after

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0002.jpg

Normally I do not mind Ramses, but not this game. He is a major threat to the AP race, and bulbing theology!!!!

And we meet another AI

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0003.jpg

Not sure how I feel about him. That appears to fill out the continent.

We did explore quite a bit of the land mass and we soon find

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0004.jpg

Paris on our doorstep. Well, remember all the debates when BTS was released. Is CHarlemagne French or German. I say he's French and should definitely have Paris rather than that upstart Napolean, what do you all say!!!

After teching AH we find

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0005.jpg

Horses in the BFC!!!!!

A view of Archeon at the save.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0007.jpg

And a larger view of the land.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIA0008.jpg

Note::: Ramses is just at the western esge of the screenshot, so we are definitely a little cramped here. Hell, we are alot cramped or will be.

SO I saved here because I am in a bit of a difficult situation.

1) Do we chariot rush Napolean real fast?

2) Do we rush after stonehenge (36 turns) to start the GPPs, sollowed by oracle. By teching mining/BW without starting a new city we MAY be able to get both done. But remember we need priesthood first!!!

3) Rules state we MUST found christianity. This is a problem with Ramses who can spit out Great Prophets real fast with his UB, and thus bulb theology.

4) We can rush both Napolean and Ramses, eliminating the duel threat.

And do note, Hinduism has NOT been found yet (2590 BC)!!!

d.a.oconnell

Apr 07, 2008, 06:00 PM

Well don't rush Egypt... he may have war chariots! As far as napolean, he is okay. You are a bit stuffed, so it may be wise to block off relations with Egypt and France ie. Don't let them be pleased with each other and attack france early. Egypt will probably build a lot of wonders and would be better later on?

Krikkitone

Apr 07, 2008, 06:08 PM

1) Yes
2) No, REX first, prioritize the Oracle, over Stonenge.. if we are feeling pushed on Theology use the Oracle to get it.

3) see above, Go Wheel, Mining, BW, Poly, Priest, Writing, Masonry, Monotheism

4) Sounds like a good idea (although not if ramses has his own horses) but definitely take Paris

Since Hindu has not been founded yet you have some time, reconsider when Judaism has been founded.

Sleepingghost

Apr 07, 2008, 06:42 PM

semirami

Apr 07, 2008, 07:01 PM

You can either build Stonehenge, or do an early rush, but not the both. Concidering that Ramesess is arround, maybe even now is too late for Stonehenge. I'd go for archery rush instead of chariot. Build baracks and 7-8 archers with cover. 1-2 first strikes + 10% strength + 25% against archery units is much better, than chariot with combat1 or flanking1. Even if Nappy has axemen, archers still can attack, while chariots are dead meat, against spears. Leave them unpromoted and promote them with cover, or shock, depends on what you will find in Paris.

madscientist

Apr 07, 2008, 08:06 PM

Hi madscientist,

First thanks for all these RPC games you have made, i have learned a lot reading them (especially with mao revised plan).

I usually play on Noble difficulty ( especially for the score, 150K with boudica of rome), but i can handle a prince game without too much efforts.

About your next move, i think all the possibilities you have stated are relevant, but in my opinion building Stonehendge AND the Oracle can be a little tricky against Ramesses (who is industrious) especially on Monarch, and maybe he has some stone or marble.

Napoleon can be a real pain in the *** if you spare him on early game, plus he has elephant...

My advice would be to attack both Napoleon and Ramesses and forget about the Oracle and Stonehendge, or you can just attack Napoleon and try to choprush the Oracle to get Theology.

I think that if you try to build both wonders and stay peaceful, you'll be a target of choice for Napoleon.

And about the thing on Charlemagne who is French, i would say that he is more a German/French guy, and Firaxis made a good choice by giving him a new civ.
But in France when you learn about Charlemagne, he is definitely French and you learn also that he beelined towards Education :D ( btw there's a french song about this ).

An another thought about Napoleon, he's considered in France as the greatest french ruler ever, but personally i think he was to greedy and crashed his empire's economy, he didn't build enough courthouses :D.

Thanks for following the games annd welcome to the forums!

So it's g ood thing to absorb Paris into the HRE. WE do want to be historically accurate!!!:D

I have the same issue with American leaders. Most think Lincoln was the greatest president. While he kept the union intact and eventually eliminated slavery, the US was plunged into a disasterous civil war where we still have issues from that time, plus he never ran the country in peace only war. I much more admire Washington who did something not many people ever did in history, he walked away from Power TWICE for the good of his country. That more than the constitution or Declaraion of Independence led America to Democracy.

Now regarding the RPC, I like Sem's idea of inclusing archers in the rush!!! I was toying with the idea but I was waiting to see if anyone actually suggested it! :goodjob:

Jaaboo

Apr 07, 2008, 08:26 PM

Mad, that lucky circumstance almost demands that you shorten the Little Corporal by a head.

NintendoTogepi

Apr 07, 2008, 10:11 PM

Charlemagne is a pious man, but he must destroy the heathen Napolean and capture his cities, so that the people of Paris may hear the word of truth and worship the one true god!!

:D

My advice would be to try and have complete control of your continent by the time you get to meet the other folks. That'll give you some good AP voting power. Also, this isn't in the rules but I would add this rule:

Once you get Theology, you must adopt Theocracy and stay in it for the rest of the game

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 07:45 AM

IagoAlberto

Apr 08, 2008, 08:09 AM

I agree that organized religion should be kept, especially given Chuck's prediliction for spreading the one true faith. I think le Petite Caporal needs to be offed asap. I would be interested to see if an archer rush could work, all those promotions may be just to good to pass up. But my more conservative side say chariots are a better choice because of their speed, you can pillage any metals if need be and hopefully off Bonny before he builds a second city.

With Ramses, you should rebuild after taking Paris and hopefully nab the Oracle for theology then target a war with 'phants and cats to take him out. You'll likely gain yourself a nice haul of wonders in the process. Unless metals show up close by I don't think you will have time to rush Napoleon and Ramses before the latter has a solid defense.

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 09:14 AM

Sleepingghost

Apr 08, 2008, 10:32 AM

These RPCs are also for educational purposes. SO I think an archer rush is a neat idea, those free promotions are too good to pass up! Of course we shall ass an escort of chariots as insurance, but let's see how much damage combat I, cg I, drill I, shield promoted archers can actually do!!!

I also think that an archer rush could be very interesting especially for readers who never tried such strategy ( me for example ), and maybe demonstrate that axerush or chariot rush is not the only solution.

Good luck :)

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 10:43 AM

I also think that an archer rush could be very interesting especially for readers who never tried such strategy ( me for example ), and maybe demonstrate that axerush or chariot rush is not the only solution.

Good luck :)

Glad to see another vote of support for the archer rush!!!!

The way I see it, if it's a dismal failure we always have the last save, and we can call it a failed experiment. But I think that this IS the time to do it (if there ever is a time).

Kev

Apr 08, 2008, 11:00 AM

Interesting setup as usual.

I'm wondering if you might consider building forces and waiting to see what happens with Stonehenge. If your neighbor builds it, then go after them and take that wonder. It will give you the GP points.

If it's built in a 'far away land", then just go after the one neighbor your scouts point to as easier. I think with at least one Industrious civ involved it will likely be built quickly enough for you.

If nothing else, those highly-promoted archers can cause major issues for your neighbor's development. If you cannot take cities, you can still take workers, harass settlers, and pillage nicely.

Sleepless

Apr 08, 2008, 01:12 PM

Regarding the archer rush. I'd like to see you do it as an experiment. :)
If it works carry on from there. I think a barracks (if you haven't built one yet) is a must for the cover promotion you can get with combat 1.

Main problems I can see are the speed of the Archers. It would be an idea to road towards Paris. The second and biggest problem will be if Paris is on a hill. With all the defence bonus it could get a bit painful ;).

Looking forward to the report :)

BalbanesBeoulve

Apr 08, 2008, 01:17 PM

Archer rushes don't really work unless you're Mansa Musa.

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 01:37 PM

Archer rushes don't really work unless you're Mansa Musa.

Excpet we are protective and have a free combat I. So 3.3 base with cover and Drill I may not be that far off a Skirmisher. Supplementing with Chariots of course.

r_rolo1

Apr 08, 2008, 01:57 PM

Combat I? :confused: CG I + Drill I my friend....

I'm not sold to the archer rush idea... but feel free to try ( It's your game anyway... :p )

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 02:04 PM

Combat I? :confused: CG I + Drill I my friend....

I'm not sold to the archer rush idea... but feel free to try ( It's your game anyway... :p )

We got a random event, free combat I upgrade for all archer units. which means with a barracks we can spit out shield promoted archers.

semirami

Apr 08, 2008, 02:06 PM

C1 from the
random event:)

EDIT: Posted at the same time

BalbanesBeoulve

Apr 08, 2008, 02:06 PM

Oh. Hmm. You might have a chance then. But you can get archers with cover even without that event. Drill 1 opens up promotions the same as combat 1.

Olodune

Apr 08, 2008, 02:10 PM

You're archer rushing with horses in the BFC :confused: Sounds fun :D

Still I'm fairly certain that chariots would be more efficient ... and definitely more mobile. I think an archer rush should work however.

EDIT: I'm not sure you have time for a barracks. I'd probably skip it.

r_rolo1

Apr 08, 2008, 02:14 PM

Fair enough ... 3.3 vs ( 3.0 *1.45 ( fortified archers with 20% cultural )).... can work.

But chariots would work better ;)

Gooblah

Apr 08, 2008, 02:19 PM

Hmm. Never tried an Archer Rush before. Send some Chariots as well; you'll need Flanking I Chariots to suicide a bit to bring down health.

Upgrade your Archers either Drill I or Cover. Drill I will give a chance for you to first strike (the first strike on either Archer would be negated due to the first strike rules IIRC), while Cover will give you +35% against the defending Archer.

Assuming 5 turns of fortification:
Napoleon's Archer (N), Charlemagne's Archer (C)

C (Combat I/Cover) v N: 4.05 v 5.25
You'll have somewhat low odds of getting something in there. I suggest a 3:2 ratio of your Archers versus Napoleon's.

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 02:22 PM

Fair enough ... 3.3 vs ( 3.0 *1.45 ( fortified archers with 20% cultural )).... can work.

But chariots would work better ;)

Yeah, I will likely bring a mix of both as they cost the same (at least in marathon they do). With a barracks

Archer (shield)
3.3 +25% shield versus 3*1.45 = 3.3 : 3.6

compared with

(combat I)
4.4 vs 3*1.45 = 4.4 : 4.35

Assuming no promotions for Napolean and not factoring in the Drill promotion.

semirami

Apr 08, 2008, 02:45 PM

I just did a test

Archer with CG1+C1+D1+cover attacks fully fortifyed archer without promotions on hill with 20% cultural defence:

3 +10%+25%+1-2 first strikes vs 3+ 45% tile deffence + 25% unit fortify+ 50% unit ability + 50% hill deffence+1 first strike= 3.30 vs 6.60 odds 1.1%

Chariot with C1 attacks fully fortifyed archer without promotions on hill with 20% cultural defence:

4+ 10% vs 3+ 45% tile deffence + 25% unit fortify+ 50% unit ability + 50% hill deffence+1 first strike= 4.40 vs 7.35 odds 2,5%

Archer with CG1+C1+D1+cover attacks fully fortifyed archer without promotions on flat terrain with 20% cultural defence:

3 +10%+25%+1-2 first strikes vs 3+ 20% tile deffence + 25% unit fortify+ 50% unit ability +1 first strike= 3.30 vs 5.10 odds =10.3%

Chariot with C1 attacks fully fortifyed archer without promotions on flat terrain with 20%cultural defence:

4+ 10% vs 3+ 20% tile deffence + 25% unit fortify+ 50% unit ability +1 first strike= 4.40 vs 5.85 odds 17,3%

Obviously the chariots have better odds, in addition they move faster and can withdraw from combat. On the other hand, if you meet melee units (not impossible), archers still have a chance, while chariots dont have.

I think a mixed stack would be the best option.

Loknar

Apr 08, 2008, 04:33 PM

Hi everybody and thanks madscientist for those games that are really entertaining and educational.
I have never played Charlemagne and your first try didn't really motivate me to. I play Monarch (much worse then you), but in Epic speed.
1) Do we chariot rush Napolean real fast?

2) Do we rush after stonehenge (36 turns) to start the GPPs, sollowed by oracle. By teching mining/BW without starting a new city we MAY be able to get both done. But remember we need priesthood first!!!

3) Rules state we MUST found christianity. This is a problem with Ramses who can spit out Great Prophets real fast with his UB, and thus bulb theology.

4) We can rush both Napolean and Ramses, eliminating the duel threat.
1) Absolutely, and an Archer rush would be great to watch.

2) and 3) I doubt you will get both Stonehenge and the Oracle, and but I don't see you losing much if Ramses founds Theology and builds the AP for you. The real threat is that Buddhist guy from overseas. You're plans look bad if your continent is the dark one that has to be confronted with the Word of the One Truth. So better get priests real quick. Btw I haven't checked the rules, but would it be acceptable for Cromange to undergo a short Jewish phase?

4) Rush Nappy and deal with Ramses at your best pace. You will take from him whatever he gets until then. Same with Cyrus.

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 06:39 PM

OK folks, recap is coming up. But a few things to discuss before you see it as I will post as I finally played it

1) Archer rush Sucks!!!! I went at Paris (which is on a hill!) with 7 chariots 9 shield promoted archers and they all got mowed down to 5 archers like wheat to the Scythe!!!! Note, we had such a lrge stack that I lost 2 chariots to a strike before they arrived at Paris!!! FAILURE

2) Napoelan had three cities, so I retried the archer rush by attacking the grassland, non-border popped cities. Still decent losses although we took the cities, but Paris was too turtled. FAILURE

3) Got ticked, made exclusively chariots and went striaght at Paris to overwhelm it. He reinforced Paris, lost all the chariots and still did not have Paris. FAIULURE!!!

At this point I decide to get up. Me and the family have a nice steak dinner medium-rare, with a healthy salad, sauteed peppers and onions, and very nice inexpensive Red Burgendy from France.

I resat at the computer, replayed from yesterday's save with the same techpath. Chariot rushed Napolean's Northern city, and attacked Paris with an end-arround attack after sendiong a 1 chariot distraction attack onto the third city near my capital. Paris had 1 defender which pleasently surprised me, took the capital follwoed by the weakly defended third city. Napolean has been shortened even more my a head. SUCCESS!!!

So we have 2 failed archer rushes, a poorly attempted chariot rush, and a successful chariot rush.

Kid's, if you are paying attention, archer rushes are not a good idea, Just say NO!!!! For a successful rush you need either POWER, SPEED, or SURPRISE!!!! We had no power, chariots had the speed archers were missing, and I think we had the element of surprise.

SO I will post the success and play on. Unless everyone screams to abandon the game for multiple starts!

madscientist

Apr 08, 2008, 07:09 PM

Charlamagne The Blessed: Part II

OK, you all know my feelings on archer rushes, they suck. We did the appropriate thing to do with horses in the capital BFC and Napolean very near. Chariot rush!!!

We finished the wheel, built a barracks in the capital and spammed chariots.

We also teched mining/BW this segment and half od meditation.

So the assault on France.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIC0002.jpg

Note I am going for the Northern city.

We captured the northern city, remember we are not allowed to raise it!

And came down the French road onto Paris, defended by a lone archer.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIC0004.jpg

We capture Paris as reinforcements come too late after trying to reach the western city.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIC0005.jpg

And we have enough veteran, and new archers/chariots to easily sandwich the last French strongehold.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIC0006.jpg

And finally

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CHarlesIIC0008.jpg

Napolean has been destroyed. The world has not know such happiness since Shaka did that in an earlier RPC!

And a final view of our new lands!!!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CHarlesIIC0009.jpg

We also have alot of workers now, courtesy of the French.

So where do we go from here??

I say we tech priesthood and then head up the religious tree, after taking Pottery.

I also think we may want to drop one city in the middle of those French ones to claims the spices/gems/copper.

Also I still want a shot at the Oracle. We have ALOT of production in the capital, plus forrests to chop. Now which tech to take, theology will NOT be available yet???

Hunduism and Judaism have fallen. Confuscianism is still open though. And Ramses has not gotten any religion yet, not sure if that's a good thging or not.

The question is, can Charlemagne accept Confuscianism as his state religion and abandon christianity. Or is Christianity a must have, and is the game lost if an overseas AI founds it first???

Al-Iskander

Apr 08, 2008, 07:23 PM

Sweet sweet revenge :D

Must feel good to do that after the last game!

Groogaroo

Apr 08, 2008, 07:33 PM

I think you should still shoot for christianity, but still nab confuscianism from the oracle. If you lose out on theology just play out the game using confu instead, remember your games are more about fun and education than being historically accurate, as well as the fact you reserve the right to bend the rules. ;)

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.

The game seems to be going okay, and you have much better neighbours this time (atleast you do now that you've taken out nappy :lol: ).

BalbanesBeoulve

Apr 08, 2008, 07:53 PM

No religion on this continent yet? Wow. If everyone becomes the same religion then you'll be rolling in dough and the rest of the game should be easy. I wonder who's on the other continent. Probably Hatty or Izzy.

Imo, you should try to get theocracy through the oracle. It shouldn't be too hard.

And Paris is 1 tile away from the coast. Yuck. At least it only has 1 useless ocean tile in its bfc.

Sleepingghost

Apr 08, 2008, 08:03 PM

Okay, so archer rush was a very bad idea ... but it is nice to know that.

But congratulations for taking down those nasty french ^^

Imho, christianity is mandatory for charlemagne, but i think without marble it is definitely tough to get theology with the Oracle, you could give it a try but it could be quite risky.

Maybe you should skip pottery and get all the techs needed for theology.

good luck.

friendlysavage

Apr 08, 2008, 10:05 PM

Congrats on utterly destroying the French. Getting Christianity and getting the AP seems like the right choice for a good RPC. Confucianism just wouldn't be the same.

Leventis

Apr 08, 2008, 10:23 PM

Nice work there, MS. A word of advice: I strongly urge you to beeline the UB, since youre tech rate will soon begin to chug without those rathauses. Once you have them in place you can expand very quickly to get all the juicy city spots. Until then, though, I would maybe only settle the copper gem spice city--depends how much you want that copper I suppose, but I would probably wait a bit. This attempt looks much more promising :)

NintendoTogepi

Apr 08, 2008, 10:26 PM

You've got to get Christianity, Confucianism just isn't the same.

siggboy

Apr 08, 2008, 11:07 PM

Well, remember all the debates when BTS was released. Is CHarlemagne French or German. I say he's French and should definitely have Paris rather than that upstart Napolean, what do you all say!!!
I really have to comment on this (being German :-). Since he was a medieval ruler, today's concept of "Germany" as a nation does not apply here. Charles was born in Belgium and is buried in Aachen, Germany. The language which is used for the emote sounds in the game is definitely NOT French but rather a very old Germanic accent (I can understand most of the phrases quite well).

So if at all he should be considered a "hybrid" French/German ruler, and most historians seem to agree with that, also given that he united most of western and central Europe during his reign.

As somebody else mentioned already, the French would probably associate themselves to Napoleon a lot more than to Charles (I think if you'd ask around among Germans most would agree that Charles was "of course" a German ruler).

A view of Archeon at the save.
In my book, "Archeon" is way too far from "Aachen" where spelling is concerned (it's a beautiful city by the way ;-).

siggboy

Apr 08, 2008, 11:34 PM

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 04:32 AM

I really have to comment on this (being German :-). Since he was a medieval ruler, today's concept of "Germany" as a nation does not apply here. Charles was born in Belgium and is buried in Aachen, Germany. The language which is used for the emote sounds in the game is definitely NOT French but rather a very old Germanic accent (I can understand most of the phrases quite well).

So if at all he should be considered a "hybrid" French/German ruler, and most historians seem to agree with that, also given that he united most of western and central Europe during his reign.

As somebody else mentioned already, the French would probably associate themselves to Napoleon a lot more than to Charles (I think if you'd ask around among Germans most would agree that Charles was "of course" a German ruler).

In my book, "Archeon" is way too far from "Aachen" where spelling is concerned (it's a beautiful city by the way ;-).

So it's a good thing the HRE absorbed the French??? :D

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 04:36 AM

Some comments on the actual game as well: you should definitely try to get Christianity from the Oracle. There still should be enough time for you to build the Oracle before somebody else if you chop enough trees (go "all in" here, Christianity should be top priority). As somebody else has said, Confucianism just isn't the same. Charles wants to bear the Cross!

With all those workers you can probably chop the entire wonder within a few turns. Maybe build a cottage or two first to speed up research, then pre-chop the forest for an Oracle rush.

I am sure I can get the oracle, the problem is teching off polytheims/monotheism/writing fater getting priesthood. That's why I am thinking pottery is needed for commerce. Most cities are not on a trade route yet, so let's see what happens then. We are only up to 1800 BC even though 2 segments have been played out. But I think the oracle for CoL and the UB makes the most sense for now, I would only need writing.

Sunesha

Apr 09, 2008, 05:41 AM

Sorry for the off topic:

Is there a way to change difficulty on a saved game? I struggle a lot on prince and noble is my game level. I would love to try play this games.

GeneralGab

Apr 09, 2008, 07:31 AM

I had a look at your save, here are some comments.

Congrats on the successful rush. :goodjob:
I wouldn't really say you have "a lot" of workers. You have 3, for 4 cities. And very soon you're going to have to start laying down cottages, plus connecting cities and resources, so a few more workers would be better.
There's a lot of good land for cities; with the rathaus, you should be able to settle far and wide and block off land and then backfill. That means you should get a religion to speed up the border pops, and have some good commerce producing cities in your core to support the economy while the rathauses are being built, and have a city constantly pumping out units to protect those new cities and keep your power rating high.
Regarging religion: IMO, go for Oracle->confucianism. You don't have to adopt confucianism immediately; go for theology to get christianity. If you don't found christianity first, I don't think it should be game over.
If this were my game, I'd switch immediately to pottery to get some cottages going, before going meditation->priesthood->writing (to get the Oracle and pop Code of Laws). Early cottages in the capital make a big difference.

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 07:38 AM

Sorry for the off topic:

Is there a way to change difficulty on a saved game? I struggle a lot on prince and noble is my game level. I would love to try play this games.

There ar ebetter ways than the following, but here is how I do it.

Load teh game, enter world-builder. I suggest zooming on on the settler to avoid seeing to much hidden stuff. Save the game in worldbuilder. Go to the main menu, you should be able to open the game as a scenario and then adjust the difficulty and/or game speed. Caution, the game will give you the option of which civilization to play which can spoil some of the daram of the unknown.

If others know a better way, I hope they post it.

CivCorpse

Apr 09, 2008, 09:54 AM

Get some workers, spam some cottages and rex like crazy for all that prime cottage land. Get Christianity, build the AP then explain to ramses why Christians are the bestestestest. Irono working along the way wouldn't be a horrible idea. Go Mad go

grandad1982

Apr 09, 2008, 11:16 AM

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 11:25 AM

String a load - 2/3 - cities in that jungle and your in commerce heaven.

Jumbo,jumbo,jumbo,jumbo.......

Also why is paris 1 off the coast? I didn't think capitals were ever placed like that. Or did nappy move like an idiot?

Do you think you your going to get a prothet? You could bulb theology if you do.

To get the prophet I need some Great Prophet Points. That means either Oracle (150 turns) or temple (100 turns) or both (60 turns). ONe reason to take CoL for free is I can build a Confuscian temple in the capital to speed the GP up. At that point I only need polytheism/monotheism since writing was required for COL.

The question is can I tech priesthood and writing before the treasury runs out, and before Ramses builds the Oracle.

Loknar

Apr 09, 2008, 12:26 PM

I see you building Monuments in your new acquisitions and I think I missed something: Has Stonehenge been built yet? Why don't you send all your workers to chop it somewhere? I go for it very rarely, but without slavery, it's certainly one of the top notch wonder. It's not only for the earliest possible Prophet points, but also for the turns it takes to build those Monuments instead of (later) Granaries.

Loknar

Apr 09, 2008, 12:27 PM

double post

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 12:32 PM

How can I delete a double post? :blush:

You can't. You can edit and say double post, eliminating the :blush:

Reagrding the game, Stonehenge has been built already. It was a choice between rushing Napolean (4 times, actually that felt pretty damn good) and Stonehenge.

Sunesha

Apr 09, 2008, 12:35 PM

There ar ebetter ways than the following, but here is how I do it.

Load teh game, enter world-builder. I suggest zooming on on the settler to avoid seeing to much hidden stuff. Save the game in worldbuilder. Go to the main menu, you should be able to open the game as a scenario and then adjust the difficulty and/or game speed. Caution, the game will give you the option of which civilization to play which can spoil some of the daram of the unknown.

If others know a better way, I hope they post it.

Thanks a lot,

It worked fine, thou had to erase my opponents out of the memory. But after reading the thread, it came to my mind that I already knew much off the map. Which didn't work out to be such interesting game to play. But the next one I will shadow game just because it is fun. Thou it will be a much different game as I play on much more easier level.

But thanks for sharing your knowledge and games. Have actually inspired me to play much more interesting. I am a stalker deluxe here on this forum. Just recently came out off the closet. My contributions will be less and hopefully with more quality than quantity. Not that my off topic was a good read ;-)

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 12:50 PM

You can see I joined Oct 2006 but never posted a "hello" until May 2007. Welcome.

Kev

Apr 09, 2008, 12:53 PM

Reagrding the game, Stonehenge has been built already. It was a choice between rushing Napolean (4 times, actually that felt pretty damn good) and Stonehenge.

Was Stonehenge built by your immediate neighbor? If so, you can take it by force and get those GPP's from that, no?

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 12:56 PM

Was Stonehenge built by your immediate neighbor? If so, you can take it by force and get those GPP's from that, no?

I am 99% certain it was built on teh other continent. Besides, by the time I capture it I'll have the monuments built, and probably the Oracle too.

I think we will play nice with Ramses and Cyrus for a while.

bestje

Apr 09, 2008, 01:11 PM

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 01:24 PM

nice chariot rush in the last segment, would have been good to see an archer rush actually work but they don't very often

do either of egypt/ cyrus have horses? if they don't they are likely to be fairly easy targets, but persia's UU is particularly dangerous if they do.

I think both are pretty easy to get along with providing we do not tick them off. By the time we get cultural pressure on them, we should have the HRE UU whish shreds both Egyptian and Persian UUs. But let's give peace a chance, at least until Christianity shows up.

bestje

Apr 09, 2008, 01:36 PM

i have vulture like warmongering instincts no metal or horses = target
but if you have enough land peace is the way, i'd agree that they are both pretty easy to stay friendly with

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 01:48 PM

i have vulture like warmongering instincts no metal or horses = target
but if you have enough land peace is the way, i'd agree that they are both pretty easy to stay friendly with

As I was reminded earlier, I need at least 1 friend for a diplomatic win. I think Ramses is pretty easy as long as I can get him to be the same religion and not tick him off. Cyrus is another matter as it's hard to stay friends with him the entire game, but right now he's on the other side of Ramses.

Translation: How can I win diplomatically if I kill off all of my friends!;)

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 07:16 PM

Update coming!

This is getting to be a pattern with Charlemagne, damn is he not one tough AI to play. Played from the save once and missed theology and founding Christianity by 12 turns. According to teh rules, game over. Bah!!!

I reloaded, teched just a little smarter and boom we founded Christianity!!! All is right with the world. Saved at this point and looking for some advice where to go as we have quite a few options!

huerfanista

Apr 09, 2008, 07:41 PM

While playing a shadow game I noticed 2 things (no spoilers) that handicap the player in a big way:

1. No slavery - this is giving up one of the most powerful early tools for production in the game.:cry:
2. No city razing - so you must keep every crap barb city that you capture. I hope you did some fogbusting!:lol:

Also, I don't think you should be forced to found christianity. After all, it wasn't founded in the HRE but rather in the Roman empire. As long as you end up with the holy city (one way or another) ... :mischief: Just my own take, obviously.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you play this game. Great start! (I always like it when I can knock off the little general with an axe rush) :D This seems like a very challenging set of rules to play under.

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 07:43 PM

CHarlemagne the Blessed: Part C

Charles the Great is determined to find enlightenment from the true God!!!! He is tunnel mided to this path.

As I mentioned we the first attempt we missed founding christianity by 12 turns, which technically is a loss.

SO I reloaded, and tehced a little differently

The bottom line is that the Oracle was built in 1730 BC. We never got through priesthood in the first try! As Confiscianism fell soon afterwards, it was obvious there was only one way to get Christianity first. We had to tech it off the old fashioned way. Of course we had a small treasury from the Napoleanic wars and a trashed economy. So how to go about getting it in time before Ramses and Cyrus show upo with knights/crossbows/maces????

First thing is we built monuments, then barracks. We got enough archers for each city and only a few more chariots for barb patrol (there are quite a few barb cities arround). If we need something to build so we invested in settlers.

Techpath

Meditation - just finishing it

Pottery- We immediately started on graneries in the cities, and cottaged spammed everything we could. Not needed for theology, but needed for commerce.

Writing - Open Borders with Ramses. We chopped libraries in all cities, and ran as many scientists as we could. Basically a hybrid economy.

Maonry- Walls. Also worked on ToA and Pyramid wonders for nothing else except to lose them and get a boost to the treasury, which we did with the ToA! Pyramids are still up for grabs.

Poltheism/Monotheism/Theology

A view of the cities as we chruned out this hybrid economy.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CHarlesIIE0000.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIE0001.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIE0002.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIE0003.jpg

And soon after

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CHarlesIIE0004.jpg

Resultuing in

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIE0005.jpg

OK, a list of the techs we can research now

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CHarlesIIE0006.jpg

And another view of the land

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CharlesIIE0007.jpg

Sorry, folks. Not much to report here as far as screenshots. Mostly just teching, teching, teching.

OK, now there are alot of things to discuss here.

1) What to tech next? Priesthood/CoL/Monarchy seams like teh priority

2) Alphabet for tech trading????

3) Make a mad dash at teh AP in the strongest production city with plenty of chopping

4) We have alot of Great Scientist points, seams like we can get 1 or 2 relatively quick. What do we use them on??? Paper is a techable option, is we tech that and alphabet, backfill in trade, we can bulb a large amountof education and perhaps a VERY early liberalism race.

5) Finally, what to do with teh Christian Missionary? I say Christinfy Ramses, adopt OR and we have a friend for life. Build some Christina missionaries and spread the good word.

6) Settling cities? We need to start that at some point. Get the Rathus first????

madscientist

Apr 09, 2008, 07:51 PM

matthewthegreat

Apr 09, 2008, 07:57 PM

I would prioritize getting the AP

NintendoTogepi

Apr 09, 2008, 09:04 PM

I would get out the AP as soon as possible, and I still think you should adopt Theocracy soon....:)

And yeah, Charlemagne has two useless traits. I'm thinking of editing him to be Imperalistic/Spiritual or something...

Sleepingghost

Apr 09, 2008, 09:23 PM

Yeah , good job madscientist !

1) I agree with this tech tree. Col for the almighty Rathaus and monarchy (hereditary rule) for easy happy faces. I don't have better suggestions.

2) Yes alphabet, but you could have it with other civs that already have it.

3) The Ap is obviously the right way to go, +2 hammers in every city and some nasty propositions to vote ( in my last game i played like a crazy heathen, and bam! the whole world declared war on me)

4) About the great scientists... in all my games i can never figure out how to use them, lightbulb ? settle ? But, an early liberalism race is very tempting.

5) It is your duty as the holy roman emperor to spread the good word. So, yes, spam missionaries.

6) Settling cities can be a good idea, and it would be great if the city is coastal. Therefore you will be able to explore the seas and maybe discover some unsettled juicy (or not) islands.

To summarize, i think the Ap is a priority, spreading your faith is important but it can be a burden if you build too much missionaries, maybe an early liberalism race but it could be interesting to trade for some seafaring techs.

Have fun ^^

huerfanista

Apr 09, 2008, 11:22 PM

You're lucky that both Cyrus and Rameses don't have a religion yet. I don't think you'll have to do much to get them to convert to Christianity - just send a missionary to their capitals and let it spread by itself (with or without their help).

However, there are still 2 religions remaining to be founded, and if either Rameses or Cyrus gets one of them, I fear that they'll convert to their own religion. Perhaps you should try to beeline Philosophy and Divine Right to keep them out of the hands of your soon-to-be brothers in the faith, in order to shield them from the temptation of straying from the one true faith. :lol:

There's still the other continent out there somewhere (with 3 religions - I bet it's a real lovefest over there :lol:). Have you seen any reports of great generals in foreign lands? You might want to be the first one to meet them (with a couple of caravels full of missionaries). If you're planning on converting them through espionage, you might want to run some spy specialists so you get a couple of great spies eventually. If, by some miracle, you get the mids, they do give 4 :science: under rep.

BalbanesBeoulve

Apr 10, 2008, 12:42 AM

Start sending out more settlers to fill up the remaining land before the others do. I'd do ironworking first so you can clear out the jungles, i see some jewels! Then monarchy for the wine and happiness. Once you can grow your cities start go to CoL.

And definitely get working on the AP. You should be able to get it if you start building it from the BCs.

bestje

Apr 10, 2008, 02:02 PM

As I was reminded earlier, I need at least 1 friend for a diplomatic win. I think Ramses is pretty easy as long as I can get him to be the same religion and not tick him off. Cyrus is another matter as it's hard to stay friends with him the entire game, but right now he's on the other side of Ramses.

Translation: How can I win diplomatically if I kill off all of my friends!;)

well there is an exploit for the AP win that will allow you to vote yourself the win without any help, but its not really in the spirit of the game so making friends is the best way

siggboy

Apr 10, 2008, 03:30 PM

1) What to tech next? Priesthood/CoL/Monarchy seams like teh priority
Depending on your economy, you should maybe postpone CoL/Monarchy, and instead go for Aesthetics->Literature. You can start the Great Library and Aesthetics is NEVER researched by the AI, so you can easily trade it for Alphabet and a lot of other things. Then throw them Literature a few turns later when they can't beat you to the GL anymore.

2) Alphabet for tech trading????
As said above, maybe you don't need to research it yourself, wait for the first civ to discover it, then get it from them for some other tech (you have Theology, you could go for Aest/Lit as suggested above, or maybe CoL).

4) We have alot of Great Scientist points, seams like we can get 1 or 2 relatively quick. What do we use them on??? Paper is a techable option, is we tech that and alphabet, backfill in trade, we can bulb a large amountof education and perhaps a VERY early liberalism race.
Wait until Taoism is founded, then bulb Philo/Paper/Edu/Lib with any scientists you get. Build the Academy with the first one, of course.

siggboy

Apr 10, 2008, 03:41 PM

Start sending out more settlers to fill up the remaining land before the others do. I'd do ironworking first so you can clear out the jungles, i see some jewels!
Good point about the Jewels, because they give an nice boost to both research and happiness, but generally I would advise against REXing aggressively at this point.

One rival is already eliminated, so we have a lot more land available to us than usual. Maybe seal off territory at a strategic point, but not more than that. I would definitely not go beyond 5, maybe 6 cities right now (that would be stretching it already, so the sixth city would have to be in a prime location) and instead focus on getting key technologies, important wonders (AP and Library) and consolidating the economy.

madscientist

Apr 10, 2008, 07:09 PM

Charlemagne the Blessed: Part IV

Things are progressing very nicely in this RPC, once we abrorbed the French into the HRE and founded Christianity.

To start off, our techpath: Priesthood/CoL/Math/Fishing/Monarchy/alphabet/Paper

First of all, the expected Great Scientist

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0000.jpg

I built an academy in Lyons thinking to establish a science sity other than the capital. We will see how that works.

AFter having a coronary not being able to build the AP in the capital, I realized the city had no religion. Note to all, you need a religion in your city to build the AP! We diverted the free missionary to Aechon to spread the good word and start on the AP. After some chopping

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0001.jpg

Charlemagne is very please with his new home. Christianity quickly spread to Cyrus and Ramses with Ramses friendly and Cyrus pleased.

Ramses comes arround with a tech trade, which we offer him this power packed deal!!!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0002.jpg

We then proceeded to tech alphabet to trade with Cy.

After trying for a Prophet from the capital we get

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0003.jpg

Probably the worse thing that happened to us this segment. This GS we used to bulb philosphy and thus founding Taoism, after we finished researching alphabet.

As you can see we added three cities. We are also getting pressed by both AIs and Cyrus captured the barb cities meaning he has stretched his economy a bit.

After bulbing Philosophy

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0005.jpg

Wow, a double holy city in Orleans!!!! I took the Taoist missionary and killed him. Let's hope Taoism spreads VERY slowly. We did build a Taoist temple in order to run 2 priests in the hoped of getting a Prophjet in this city!

We also have several techs we can get, but do this one first

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0006.jpg

And then this.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0007.jpg

Well, Both Ais have traded me techs that allow me to build War Elephants. TRhanks guys, good thing for you we cannot declare war on christian brothers. Also neither leader has horses yet, no Persian or Egyptian UUs>

We also find out from Pliney

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0008.jpg

Ok, the Christians are doing better in tech. I am very curious what leaders are on the other continent. Three early religions there but I do not recall seeing a GG being born!

After teching Paper, I saved looking for some advice on what to tech next

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIF0009.jpg

Aesthetics for the GL (Ramses would be 1 turn behind us), MC/machinery/optics for caravels and then engineering for the UB?

We also are first to paper and should have access to stone quickly so the UoS is a realistic possibility. Maybe we can hit DR and try for the SM wonder,

I will try and run 2 prohets and 2 scientists eventually in Orleans to try and pop out either a prophet for the shrine or another GS to bulb education for the liberlaims race.

Of course I need to punchout some military just in case.

Finallt, I can get MC off os Ramses for paper. Maybe after building part of the UoS we can make that trade. Or do we just forget the wonder???

EDIT: By the way, We have already lost control of the AP to Cyrus!!!

Commodore Nate

Apr 10, 2008, 09:47 PM

NintendoTogepi

Apr 10, 2008, 10:01 PM

Cyrus must be destroyed....it's the only way to victory :goodjob:

You'll have a massive continent under your control that way, and then Ramesses to vote for you in the AP victory.

Killroyan

Apr 11, 2008, 01:11 AM

Orzio

Apr 11, 2008, 02:36 AM

See no rule that say you cant kill christian brothers so go and kick cyrus ass :D

Charou

Apr 11, 2008, 02:39 AM

Cyrus empire is getting big.
maybe you shoud have sent some more settlers northward.
Can you post a map of the continent, please ?

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:00 AM

Metal casting for forges, then Aesthetics to make those wonders build faster.

As for University of S, that depends on if you have a lot of Christian buildings up and running already. If not, building it partway just for the money doesn't seem like such a bad idea (your coffers seem to need filling :) )

And who did Ramesses vote for in the AP? It looks like Cyrus would easily be able to vote himself into resident.

I can get MC in a trade and still tech off Aesthetics one turn before Ramses, so I like this idea!

I have ALOT of christian building to leverage the AP hammer bonus. UoS makes alot of sense, however, it I trade Paper to Ramses for MC I risk him building the wonder first.

Ramses voted for Cyrus. I am not that concerned who holds the vote, Cy almost always adopts FR so I expect him to do that leaving Ramses as my best bud providong I stay in OR.

Krikkitone

Apr 11, 2008, 08:01 AM

I'd go for G Library, Try and get a Prophet for the shrine (after all goal involves Christianity in every city... quite a deal of gold.

I'd go for the UU before caravels (engineering then optics), you can pop out a couple in the middle of your war.

Otherwise, Target Cyrus when you get the UU, he is likely to go Free Religion and abandon the true faith eventually.

Overall Tech
Aesthetics (G.Lib)
Engineering (UU+Trebs->absorb Cyrus)
Optics (contact+circumnavigation+spreading of the True faith)
DR?? (stop Islam from coming to Ramses and SM)
Liberalism (Prophets for Shrine before bulbers for this)
Astronomy (spread the faith by the Sword where necessary)

It Might be worth trying for DR somewhere along there. Both to stop Ramses from deviating from the true faith by getting Islam, and for the SM.

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:02 AM

Cyrus must be destroyed....it's the only way to victory :goodjob:

You'll have a massive continent under your control that way, and then Ramesses to vote for you in the AP victory.

We have alot of time. Cyrus is our Christian Brother so I prefer no war. Let's build up and tech real fast. Also I prefer to hit Cyrus (if I have to) with the UU.

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:05 AM

Somehow historically correct to absorb the French. Now if the Germans would have been there and you could have absorbed them too that would have been fun.

About the game, things are definitely shaping up. Getting those temples and monasteries are propably better then a forge right now. Next GS should build an acadamy in your capital if you ask me with bureaucracy around the corner.

Aesthetics is incredible trading material and the great library is always nice to have but it will make it harder to get a great priest. I would go for the Paper route fairly soon since UoS is also very nice to have. Religious games with UoS, AP, Sistine and SM are just fun and give an incredible benefit. I am just playing a game right now where I can just run 100% science with over 10 cities.

I will try to get a Prophet with teh next GP, but if not I will start spamming for GS's and just forget the shrine. With the UB, we have a very nice economy already. I definitely want a GS to bulb education, almost more than a Prophet at this point (almost). The GL is definitely a must have for the GSs, and we have access to marble which I am unsure if Ramses has.

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:07 AM

See no rule that say you cant kill christian brothers so go and kick cyrus ass :D

True, but I think it violates the spirit of the RPC. What is more of a problem is I will have a very angry Persian on our continent since I have to absorb every one of his cities to eliminate a consistent threat (rememebr no city razing and no vassals). Plus every DoW against Cyrus hurts Ramses's feelings towards us.

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:09 AM

Cyrus empire is getting big.
maybe you shoud have sent some more settlers northward.
Can you post a map of the continent, please ?

Sorry if my map is not clear. Cyrus has the entire north. He has alot of cities and is falling behind in tech with no traits or UB to help him much. I see him being tech-behind. I just need to make sure Ramses get's all my new techs first, before he trade with Cy. I have the maximum number if cities I want right now, with the exception of one to claim the stone (which will help several religious wonders).

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:10 AM

huerfanista

Apr 11, 2008, 09:00 AM

I have the maximum number if cities I want right now, with the exception of one to claim the stone (which will help several religious wonders).

It's not too early to start thinking about getting a couple of coastal cities up, which you will need eventually. That stone site will likely be a real junk city that won't support any naval production. Won't you claim it soon through Paris' border pop, especially if you're building culture-producing religious buildings there?

Remember - Land Is Power! Cyrus may be teching slowly now, but all that land that he's claiming will make him a real powerhouse - both in tech and military - once he gets his economy together. It will be no easy task to take him on militarily and still get a peaceful diplo win (but I guess that's why this is a role-playing CHALLENGE :lol:). He's definitely more of a threat than Rameses, who will forgive you eventually if you put Persia under new management (as long as you can keep Rameses in the One True Faith(tm) :p). What's the military resource situation in Egypt? Are some of those veteran chariots scouting out your neighbors?

Orzio

Apr 11, 2008, 01:00 PM

If you switch someones relgion with spy mission before ap vote does that cut ther vote by 50%?

NintendoTogepi

Apr 11, 2008, 01:34 PM

I still think you should go after Cyrus. Wipe him out entirely, and Rameses will probably only get a -1 diplo thing or so, maybe -2.

Taking over Cyrus will greatly help you, and it will help leverage your UB.

Kev

Apr 11, 2008, 01:38 PM

Keep in mind that if you went after Cyrus while he runs the AP you'd be open to the "give the city back" and "stop the war" deals. A real pain to be sure.

Wonder if you might consider more cottages around Orleans in hopes for making it more of a money-maker with, hopefully, the Church of Nativity (I'll assume building the other shrines are not allowed - did not have a chance to look back at the rules).

Like the GL not only for the help it gives to you but to keep it out of your neighbors' hands. I did not see Literature on your list of techs - do you have that as of yet? Can't recall if you need Aesthetics to get Lit...

I'd also keep an eye out for an early run at Divine Right. I'm not much of a religious player, but I think in this case there are some good benefits:

- Keeps someone like Ramesses from founding Islam and switching to that religion (I believe there is a propensity for a civ to switch to a religion they've founded).
- The Spiral Minaret is a great wonder to work in synergy with UofS and the AP (and the Sistine Chapel, but the cultural aspect may not be as important now).
- You may wish to build Versailles just to keep it out of Cyrus' hands given his spacious empire.

If for some reason you get a prophet for the shrine and then get another prophet not long after, it might behoove to bulb part of Divine Right.

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 01:44 PM

Literature is assumed after Aesthetics. Versailles just ain't worth the hammer even with marble. I do like teching off DR, like you said to keep it out of old Ramses hands, opening the wonder, and killing another late religion.

Krikkitone

Apr 11, 2008, 02:01 PM

The problem with Cyrus is He has more land than you that means

1. More population than you (for AP+UN)
2. His tech will be better than yours eventually

Because of #1 he will be the competitor for votes, and if Ramses likes him better... it just won't work.

There is the problem of the AP stopping a sucessful war and handing back cities. Very Difficult.
Ramses should be handlable because of Civics+Religion.

However your alternative, then is to beeline Astronomy to conquer the OTHER continent (since you don't have to worry about overseas maintenance). If you aren't going to conquer Persia now... there is no point in going for your UU.

so
Wonder Rush (Great Library, University, Spiral Minaret)
and
Optics->Liberalism
and pop Astronomy... Ignore Engineering. You'll have Protective Crossbows and Elephants... that should be able to handle anything
After Astronomy, then get the troops you will need to attack the next continent (Engineering, Guilds... possibly working up through Gunpowder and Chemistry)

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 02:06 PM

The problem with Cyrus is He has more land than you that means

1. More population than you (for AP+UN)
2. His tech will be better than yours eventually

Because of #1 he will be the competitor for votes, and if Ramses likes him better... it just won't work.

There is the problem of the AP stopping a sucessful war and handing back cities. Very Difficult.

However your alternative, then is to beeline Astronomy to conquer the OTHER continent (since you don't have to worry about overseas maintenance). If you aren't going to conquer Persia now... there is no point in going for your UU.

Attacking Persia seams wrong on so many RPC angles. Since three AIs are on another continent and the holy cities of Budhhism/Hinduism/Judaism/Confiscianism are there, I gotta figure we are going to be waging intercontinental war in the, which will be very interesting considering I have to convert all those lands as well as keep the cities I invade. I think Cyrus may be a very good friend to have.

Krikkitone

Apr 11, 2008, 02:08 PM

Looks like I cross edited

good Idea, but then Engineering is worthless to you until Astronomy.

You can always take him out if he goes for Free Religion, as then his threat will be lower, and his Friendship less secure.

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:22 PM

Update coming and it's a large round as there have been no wars and straight teching and infrastructure.

Gotta say this game is the exact opposite of the first Charlemagne game.

If it was a normal game I would say it's a done deal. BUT, it's an RPC and there ARE issues!!!!!

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 08:54 PM

Charlemagne the Blessed: Part V

OK, we got alot of work done in this segment. If this was a normal game I would say gameover fairly soon. But being the RPC angle needing a diplomatic win, well things may get very interesting!!!

I will preface all this by saying Cyrus has control of the AP, and if all of the three other AIs get's a few Christian cities we are in serious danger of losing a Diplomatic game. Something to consider through this segment.

But first of all, the techpath for the entire segment

Aesthetics/Lit/Education (no bulb)/CS/Liberalism/Engineering/Guilds/Compass/Optics/Gunpowder/PP/banking/RP/rifling save!

That's ALOT!@!

We started by trading Paper to Ramses for NC

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0000.jpg

We then make this trade for Fuedalism, as I want protective longbows and do not trusty Cyrus all that much.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0001.jpg

We then completed a piair of wonders

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0002.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0003.jpg

Great for Science and great for potential GAs, something to keep in mind.

We also tried for the Great Library but lost the damn thing by 2 turns!

With a 33% chance

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0004.jpg

We popped a Prophet for the Church of the Nativity!!!! Gold is not an issue with the shrine AND the Rathus!!!

We then made another nice trade

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0005.jpg

Stacking the middle age weapon techs, just in case.

After teching Civil Service we adopt these civics

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0006.jpg

No Vassalage to suck up to Cyrus.

We are the first to liberalism, in 1025!!!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0007.jpg

We opt for Nationalism and start on the Taj in the capital (We are running Bureacracy AND have marble).

And very quickly

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0008.jpg

With the Museum, we got 24 turns of a GA!

After getting optics, we sent some caravels off with Christian Missionaries to find

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0009.jpg

OK, a reasonable leader although in FR due to the SP wonder. If we war with him it has to be before the Tank era. We dropped off a few Missionaries to start converting, open borders are easy.

Netx Ai

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0010.jpg

OK, I usually hate this guy, but in this game he is OK. Religion does not matter much to him and we have his favorite civic in HR. Plus he's overexpanded and is teching like an isolated Tokugawa. We gifted Priesthood for some diplo points!

We made another trade with Cyrus.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0011.jpg

No, I am not nuts, he almost had the tech researched already!

The GA from the Taj ended, so we started another with the next GP

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0012.jpg

We meet the last AI, the dreaded Buddhist/Hindu/Judaist/Confucist founder

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0013.jpg

Couldn't ask for a better AI! Religion is average for him and we have his favorite civic in HR!!!! Also, Pacal is isolated, opr at least was.

We make several trade (sorry, but these are important and part of the game.)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0014.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0015.jpg

OK, we'll make a try at the Versailles in Orleans! I should say I build enough military to keep Cyrus from getting ideas, but running OR and having the AP religios building ar allowing us to get all infrastructure in all cities (The consecutive GAs help also). By the save almost all our cities have forges/markets/grocers/banks/libraries/universities/theaters/colesiums. Yes, we have nothing else to build, EXCEPT Military!!!!!

After we teched off rifling I saved.

We have a Great Engineer saved, maybe for first crack at the SoL and maybe for another GA with the next GP.

So we can tech military tradition, followed by chemistry/steel. We can go after Atronomy, or constitution/democracy. we can also proceed with SM and physics/communism for the free GPs (Museum GAs!!!).

We also have a very large military edge, Do we build up or try for peaceful Missionary spamming for the AP win??? I did trade Liberalism to Cyrus HOPING he opts for FR!!! Remember I HAVE to spread the good word to all cities first, so no cheapo AP diplo vote. We need a stronge consensus that Charlemagne is the true Holy Father!!!! And we really want him to become Pontificated!!!

Status of the Empire to follow in the next post.....

madscientist

Apr 11, 2008, 09:04 PM

Charlemagne the Blessed: PArt V continued

OK, let's look at the worls

The Mayan land

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0016.jpg

What appears to be mostly Portugese lands.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0017.jpg

And mostly German lands

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0018.jpg

And our territiry

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0019.jpg

Diplomatic relations

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0020.jpg

Tech

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0021.jpg

Power

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0022.jpg

DO not worry here. We have rifling and alot of protective rifles will chagne all that!!!

And finally demographics.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIG0023.jpg

At the moment, the plan is to Christinaize Germany. Build a large army (we are at 90% science and running a profit!) and get ready to smash heads. If Cyrus adopt FR, I say we consider hitting Pacal and his isolated island. I ma sure he has several shrined holy cities, he's not too popular, and would be an easily defended area.
The alternatives are to grab the Bull by the horns and invade Persia, in a likely game deciding assault. But that seams to easy and still wrong somehow.
The third alternative is to invade Portugal since he is just getting Fuedalism now and should be easy pickings.

BUT remember, we do not want an accidental Domination. There is also no vassals, so we should have the faith spread BEFORE we attack as we are unlikely to get open borders again after a war. And we cannot raze cities.

AND one more thing, likely we get no AP votes if we start assaulting a Christian Brother.

Like I said, it's an easy win normally, but VERY interesting with teh RPC rules!

NintendoTogepi

Apr 11, 2008, 09:17 PM

War is the only way....

Also, if Cyrus adopts free religion, won't your only friend (Rameses) be the one you're against? :confused:

I'm still for the war against Cyrus. Didn't Charlemagne (the real one) do something similar with a war?

paulthebug

Apr 11, 2008, 11:01 PM

Kill Cyrus! We like bloodshed here!:crazyeye:

BalbanesBeoulve

Apr 12, 2008, 12:53 AM

Blanket Joao's lands with christian missionaries, then use a spy mission or bribe him to switch. he didn't found islam so he's not too tied to it. Looks like neither he or frederich even had a religion until divine right, so i'm not too surprised he's in FR.

Freaking Pacal is such a religion whore. In my last game with him he founded Hinduism, Judaism, and Confucianism. Boudica decided he shouldn't be so greedy and promptly took 2 of the holy cities, and i wanted in on the action so i took the 3rd. In a mirror of this game, Alex and Hannibal were isolated together and neither had a religion and had been fighting for thousands of years nonstop, with neither able to get the upper hand. Hammurabi and Montezume were also isolated together, and despite Hammurabi getting a very late Christianity that spread to Montezuma, the 4 dows before i met them ensured they never got close despite the same religion.

grandad1982

Apr 12, 2008, 03:48 AM

I love the UoS. Its such agood wonder and you can nearly always get to paper first.

Have you considered a bit of ICS - infinite city sprawl? If you fill in all your marginal land the cities will still pay for themselves - good for drafting - and you will boost your pop giving you more dipllomatic power peacefully.

Pacals land looks like FR heaven with all those religions!

One other thing..... your economy is rocking out! Nice work!

madscientist

Apr 12, 2008, 08:02 AM

CHarlemagne the Blessed: Part VI

I am crusing along with this RPC, as it seams pretty obvious what the situation is. By the end we have an ultimate chaoice and I would like to hear some advice. I think the final question will be whether to actually do a DoW on one AI in order to secure a victory.

So let's start!

We teched off Military tradition/chemistry/steel/democracy/Corp/Physics/Electricity/Radio/Railroad/ All but 1 turn of Mass Media (you see where this is going!)

We started with a trade to Germany

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0000.jpg

We poped another GP which we used with our GE from before to pop another 24 turns of Golden Age!!!

I should mention we missed both free GPs from Communism and Physiscs:confused:

As Fred will be the strongest AI late in teh game, he is the PRIMARY focus of diplomacy and trades. We do not want to have to fight Germany in the late game.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0002.jpg

Of course I will not ignore these trades

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0003.jpg

Cyrus has been interesting. He is doing well in tech but has not teche rifling by the end of the segment. Obviously he is not planning a war.

We used alot of christian missionaries towards Germany, once he was completely Christianfied we worked on Joaoa. Pacal has no Christian cities at the save.

Also Joao was in theocracy so we gifted missionaries which he used to found christianity in his cities. While a slight breaking of the theocracy/different religion/open borders rule, since he actually used the missionaries for their tasks we let it slide as the purpose and spirit of the RPC were still being followed. Also, Joao has "We HAve Enough..."

Also Ramses and Cyrus has a defensive pact which damages Fred and Joao relations with Cyrus for teh AP.

OK, another trade. With no wars or expansion, map screenshots do not make sense.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0004.jpg

Then a key trade with a very backwards AI

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0005.jpg

Soon we get this request

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0006.jpg

OK, Joaoa went after Pacal as expected. They did not do much damage to each other and got peace a little later. We took a few diplo hits from both for staying out of the wr, but so be it!

We are nailing alot of wonders this game.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0007.jpg

And we also have heavy cultural pressure on those Egyptian/Persian borders.

Another trade

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0008.jpg

And with Joaoa friendly with us, we decide to eliminate the HR factor

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0009.jpg

Now we have a very solid relationship with Fred, up to friendly.

Now here is the latest AP vote, which is where we saved

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0010.jpg

Also note we are 1 turn from Mass Media, and we also have a GE saved which allows us to rush the UN in 1 turn!!!!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0011.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0012.jpg

The way I see it, Cyrus has enough AP vote to block an AP diplo victory, even if I got PAcal on board and got Ramses to vote for us. So building the UN may be a very good idea here, and see what the population is. Also there are enough votes to block Cyrus from an AP victory.

We also have a Galleon with three missionaries (Damned this limitation of only three missionaries at a time sucks). DO we fully convert the last few Portugese cities, or do we let Pacal know the Good Word also and bring the AP vote to a head????

Also, we may be looking at a situation where we are forced to invade Maya, and I am pretty certain I can get Fred and Joaoa to dogpile. We have an army of Cavalry/cannons/rifles set to go.

And the tech situation, to show our standing with teh world.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIH0013.jpg

Obviously Germany has infantry. What I DO NOT want is Germany overrunning Maya and going against us in the UN vote.

SO, the questions

1) Do we finish MM and build the UN with the GE?
2) DO we use those three christian missionaries on Pacal or Joaoa?
3) DO we attack and absorb the Mayans to our empire? I have not built the Forbidden Palace yet, so that will help with maintenance. we also have a plus gold economy at 100% science.

grandad1982

Apr 12, 2008, 08:17 AM

One thing.

Joao

r_rolo1

Apr 12, 2008, 08:26 AM

madscientist

Apr 12, 2008, 08:55 AM

Frederick and João both have voted for you in the AP ... and they lack Bio. So you could get some extra votes from there ( AP or UN.... in this situation it would not matter much: the contenders are the same )

Can you get a way to force Cyrus to defy a AP or UN resolution? That would lower his pop and remove him form the candidates bench.

OK, here's a question. UN is based on Population but is the AP? For some reason I tend to think of the number of cities with teh AP.

Not sure about Cyrus, there's no captured cities or anything. He's been a gemntleman the entire game.

Fred will make a trade for Bio, that's easy. Joao needs a ton of techs to get there, I prefer not to help him that much as we may need to invade him later if he does not vote for us.

r_rolo1

Apr 12, 2008, 09:01 AM

AP is also based in population ,but from population of cites that have the AP religion. There are also modifier for running the AP religion as state one and for having the AP.....

if you build the UN , the vote will be between you ( builder ) and Cyrus ( not sure avbout that , but he looks to have the bigger pop ). That is not good news for you.... unless you can get sushi or something you can't beat Cyrus in pop.

madscientist

Apr 12, 2008, 09:07 AM

The other possibility is to found Creative Constructions or Mining Inc. Use CC for severe cultural pressure on Cyrus and Ramses, I may be able to flip 2 or 3 cities. Mining Inc could allow fast military production. That still allows us to build the UN manually if we want.

Krikkitone

Apr 12, 2008, 11:27 AM

on UN v. AP
because Every city has to be Christion, the only thing that is defferent between the votes is whether they are in the Christian State Religion.

To maximize the AP: Ideally you want Your friends to be Christian and your Competitor's Friends to be Not. The problem is our competitor will be in the Christian state religion.

There is also the question of the extra 2 hammers per city from the AP.

I'd stick with using the AP, unless you really need Hollywood, and put the Engineer into Mining Inc. (for a faster Military Build up)

I think you really need to Christianize your friends, and absorb an enemy (getting their votes permanently.)

Easiest to absorb (based on tech) looks either Maya or Portugal

Portugal is a good Friend

I'd say include the Missionaries with your Mayan Invasion Force... let Portugal finish Christianizing itself.

I'd try spreading Taoism (and the Mayan Religions) in Persia to get them to switch to Free Religion... (also if you capture some shrines/build the Taoist one*, its more gold) That reduces them as a consideration, of course it makes Portugal the other contender... and I'm not sure how that would reshuffle the votes.

By taking Maya, and neutralizing Persia (perhaps they would even vote for you if you go back to Vassalage) you might be able to do it.

The key thing I think is
1. Use Missionaries to Remove civs from contention
2. Shape your civics so that they are favored by the civs NOT in contention
so Remove Persia/Germany/Portugal by flooding it with Foreign religions, and then adopt Vassalage/US/HR
[obviously Germany/Portugal is a choice, do one and not the other.] Germany itself is probably the best as a friend. (since it will have more population)

Actually that might be your best strategy, stick with the AP and spread many foreign religions around to everyone else.... hope they go Free Religion, and then the only AP options are Madscientist for pope/Abstain. (although Egypt might be hard to move givein their favor of Organized Religion.

PS in a diplo game you really need to display the grid. (not only for your friends, but also for their other friends)

*If allowed

madscientist

Apr 12, 2008, 03:02 PM

Charlemagne the Blessed: Part VI

Moving right ahead here. This segment we attempted to force the AP for the Diplo vote. We ended not getting the Diplo vote, teching MM and building the UN. Things look extremely optimistic, with one glitch easily solved (I thinke asily). There is only one issue, and that's getting all cities with christianity. We can do it, but it takes forever to turck 3 missionaries across the world to Pacal, especially with 1 02 failing. Frankly it's not enjoyable, and I think I will just take the UN diplo win vote now, there's not really alot of skill involved waiting 150 years to fully spam Christianity!!! But I will consider it overnight, and decide tomorrow, but unless I get some stronge reasons to force the Christian spam, I will likely go for the UN vote to end it.

And about the glitch, well read on.

First we stop MM at 1 turn and start teching Combustion when we make this trade.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0000.jpg

Let our Buddy's pop grow a bit!

And about that GE,

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0001.jpg

we used him for Creative Constructions, for the production and the culture.

And just to view our Christian Holy city, and of course we are using the Holy city to direct the Corp!!!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0002.jpg

By the end of the Segment we have a 150+ gold profit at 100% science. IS that an economy or what!!!

We also got one of the betetr random events

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0003.jpg

We also dropped alot of those late game wonders, great for trading. Our Buddies certainly appreciate thier entertainments!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0004.jpg

Now, I tried like hell to spam Taosit missionaries to CY, but he never budged to FR, hence my desire at the end of the game to go UN. Bottom line, AP you need about 80% of the vote, UN 65%.

We did get control of teh AP and for the hell of it tried the diplo vote (Obviously we dropped missionaireso onto Paal).

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0005.jpg

We also got Rock and Roll, and the results

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0007.jpg

Pretty damned close, and Ramses is voting for us!!!!

We also got the Eifel tower and Cristo Redentor wonder. Finally I cmae to the realization that the AP is a losing battle, Cy is not doing the FR thing and he's too big. SO

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0007.jpg

We just happened to get GE (after trying for a GM for Sushi)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0011.jpg

And a real fortunate thing occured

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0012.jpg

All that cultural pressure flipped a Persian city to us!!!!!

Immediately the UN vote came up.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0013.jpg

And

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0014.jpg

We control it with 686 votes, and Pacal is voting for Cy.

Victory conditions

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIII0015.jpg

Unless Joao, Fred, or Ramses backs out we can elect ourselves Supreme overlord, I mean diplomatic victory!!! And if we somehow lose the votes, we have a very large army trhat we move against Pacal with!!

But the only issue is spreading CHristianity. Again, I really do not wnat to just sit arround mindlessly building three Missioanries at a time to sail 10 turns to reach the Mayans.

NintendoTogepi

Apr 12, 2008, 03:11 PM

madscientist

Apr 12, 2008, 04:33 PM

Well, it's really a shame you didn't manage to win via the AP.

I say forget spreading Christianity for the most part, it's good enough.

I STILL think you should have wiped out Cyrus early in the game, and you could have won via AP that way. I'd be interested in seeing someone doing a shadow game where they loaded one of your saved after you took out Napolean, and then attacked Cyrus and (maybe) Rameses.

Yes, It would have been nice to get an AP win, that's the one type I have not claimed yet in a RPC game! However, with the RPC rules a win is a wins and I'll gladly accept the UN.

As far as taking out Cyrus and maybe Ramses, you ar eprobably right that could have been done. However, it never felt right with the flavor of the RPC, peaceful brotherhood of Christianity. They were our friends, so I wouldr ather have teh UN diplo win without killing them than the AP after backstabbing them. Just a preference.

The other issue was Avoiding an accidental domination. Plus I had no idea what the other AIs were doing, they could have had a large stronge voting block.

I would be very interested also to see if anyone shadowed the game. I will not replay it from a save, I have had enough of Charlemagne for now and looking foreward to Restless Joao!

grandad1982

Apr 12, 2008, 05:39 PM

Rember the golden rule? These are ment to be fun for you to play! If spamming missionarys isn't fun (why is it set to 3?) don't do it!

I have to say thats a mighty economy you have there Mad.

Krikkitone

Apr 12, 2008, 05:50 PM

Well If spamming Missionaries is boring spice it up a bit... declare war on the Heathen Mayans, for supporting the Schismatic Persians. Include 3 missionaries in your invasion force, and invite your buddies to join in.

Also, just because they vote for you for secretary General, doesn't mean they are going to fvote for your diplomatic win

huerfanista

Apr 12, 2008, 07:37 PM

I started a shadow game a few days ago, although I haven't completed it yet. As is often the case, it went in a very different direction from this game.

I started out by following MadScientist's lead and chariot rushing the little emperor. After that, my tech path was along the lines of Mad's original idea (CoL for rathauses) rather than the one he followed in the reload. After taking down Nappy, I did a barb rex (they had settled everywhere by then - mostly horrible city placement, what a shock! :eek: ) and teched CoL, currency and calender to keep my economy afloat, spammed cottages in all of those jungle cities.

The fly in the ointment was Rameses - he beelined theo and founded Christianity. I had no choice but to reclaim the holy city (which settled the question of who would be the next to fall under the benevolent sword of the protector of the true faith :lol:). Also, he had no metals. :ar15:

Thus, I was the 800 lb. gorilla in this game, not Cy. Once I got my economy in order I easily out-teched him to dominant military tech lead. He was always ahead of me in power (I was building most of the wonders in the game), but he was never less than pleased with me.

When the other continent was met, Fred soon DOWed Cy (:eek: - he was way outclassed by Cy), but it was a do-nothing war. Hindu Pacal had built the AP, so it was never going to be available for a Christian victory. I used Fred's war with Cy as an excuse to put Germany under enlightened rule (Infanty/Artillery/Destroyers vs Knights/Trebs/frigates - :devil: bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaa).

So now I've got a big tech lead over Cy, I'm centuries ahead of the other jokers. I've researched MM and am building the UN. I figure I'll take out either Joao or Pacal, make friends with whoever is left (probably Joao - he'll be easier to convert to Christianity) and vote myself king of the world :king: --- er, I mean Holy Roman Emperor of the Universe.:dance::band::banana:

It would have been nice to follow Mad's more diplomatic approach, but I don't have anywhere near his skill - especially at diplomacy (other than the pointy-stick kind :trouble:).

Orzio

Apr 12, 2008, 07:48 PM

World Builder And get yourself 100 missionaries and call it an act of god :D No point with a religion if it dosent give you some super powers :D

NintendoTogepi

Apr 12, 2008, 08:36 PM

World Builder And get yourself 100 missionaries and call it an act of god :D No point with a religion if it dosent give you some super powers :D

^ I like this idea

Whatever it is, get working on Joao!

madscientist

Apr 13, 2008, 05:41 AM

Charlemagne the Blessed: Final Enlightenment

OK, our Charlemagne RPC is finished, schieving a UN DIplomatic victory. And a TRUE one, requiring the approval of 3 other AIs. No Vassals, no dirty and unneccesary wars. Nothing but a good, solid religon based game!

Not much to report, we made a few trades

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0000.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0001.jpg

Nice to get rid of Mass Media to Ramses, OH and Cyrus actually swiped MM using a Spy!!!

Joao cam earround asking for Nationalism which we agreed to, locking up probably the weakest of the voting block.

Then the vote pops up

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0002.jpg

We initiated the vote. Seams Pacal self spread Christianity a little, perhaps hoping for the Cultural win. There were only a few cities left, maybe 1 or 2 Portugese, and maybe 1 new German city. Otherwise we had the entire wrold Christian. Anyway the transport was full of Missionaries heading east when

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0003.jpg

We also had a LARGE army waiting to attack Pacal if one of our friends resisted the vote. As you see that was not needed!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0004.jpg

UN Diplomatic win, One early chariot rush and a very peaceful game. Quite different from the Shaka initiated slugfest from the first game. Just to show you, good neighbors are like gold.

The final powergraph

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0005.jpg

Demographics

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0006.jpg

Running 100% science with 100+ gold surplus and we are still at number 2 in GNP!!! Glad we didn't have going to space as a rule!!

Our Holy leader of the World, if not the Pope

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Charlemagne%20II/CIIJ0007.jpg

I'll attach the save after the win in case any wants to review it.

Thanks for following, I'll write the recap in the next post.

madscientist

Apr 13, 2008, 06:00 AM

What a difference two games can be. The first Charlemagne was a slugfest where our attack dog got too damned big and bit us on the way to the top. THe second was a masterful game in playing a stronge peaceful and diplomatic game!!

Why we won.
1) Good neighbors. Period. After Napolean was chariot rushed I was 100% certain we could keep peace with Ramses and Cyrus as long as we got a religion. Neither use theocracy, so spreading Christianity would have been easy, even if Ramses founded something like Judaism.
2) Good overseas AIs. Pacal hogged all the religions, probably the one person you want to do that, and isolated!!!! Fred was easy enough to get along with especially when we both got US, his favorite Civic. Joao was my chief concern but he was so tech behind, that was the key to his heart!
3) What an economy!!! OK, no more wise cracks about Mad actually having a decent economy once in a while. This one ran very well, compact, abused the UB, great trade network, a very well spread/shrined religion, and a very profitable Corp late game. This was even betetr than the Holy Sal game where we have 6 shrined holy cities!!
4) Why did Ramses betray Cyrus in Diplo vote at the end???? My strongest guess is that Cyrus used Spies freely and they got caught, We never used them.

RPC Rules
1) We founded Christianity and Built the AP, what more can we ask!!
2) We maintained peace throughout the game, as it was easy to convert the AIs via missionaries! We were able to delay Pacal getting any Christian city a long time, which allowed us to get a large enough vote to block Cyrus off from a AP Diplomatic win, the biggest threat to us the entire game.
3) Stretched 1 rule, all cities were not Christian by the end, too long a tedious, enough were. We would have accomplished it anyway.

ALOT of you were chomping at the bit for some big wars, against Cyrus and Pacal. In this RPC there was really no need. Sure Cyrus was a monster, but the ultimate goal was a Diplomatic win and once it became obvious Cyrus was a long term friend. Of course we were ready to pound Pacal or even Joao, but we showed restraint (and to keep our nice economy running smoothly). And it payed off!!!!

So I hope everyone enjoyed this RPC, the outcome was ALOT better than the Dismal first try.

Next RPC will be Joao the Restless. We will start in an old world map, Joao must settle the new world, build the palace there, and colonize off the old world before he can win. And he must declare independence from the old world by 1776!!!!