Proposal for economic subgame ruleset

Prime Faction/Government Faction (based on government civics)

Base Number Civic Cost: Expenditure for government in gold
Base Number Happy Faces:


Despotism: 5 % of tax
Hereditary Rule: 10 % of tax
Representation: 15 % of tax
Police State: 15 % of tax
Universal Suffrage: 30 % of tax


Allied Factions/Faction cities (based on legal civics, local vs. central autonomy)


Barbarism: 5 % of tax
Vassalage: 20 % of tax
Bureaucracy: 10 % of tax (10 % more to prime faction in tax bonus)
Nationhood: 10 % of tax
Free Speech: 5 % of tax

Non-Prime Faction/Opposition Faction (based on labor civics)

Tribalism: 10 % of tax
Slavery: 5 % of tax
Serfdom: 5 % of tax
Caste System: 10 % of tax
Emancipation: 20 % of tax


Religious dynamics (based on religion civics)

Paganism 5 % of tax
Organized Religion 10 % of tax
Theology 20 % of tax
Pacifism 5 % of tax
Free Religion 0 % of tax

Market dynamics (based on economy civics)

Decentralization:Remaining % of tax spent on faction city governments
Mercantilism: Remaining % of tax spent on tax benefits for tile-owners
Free Market: Remaining % of tax spent on tax benefits for traders
State Property: Remaining % of tax spent on prime faction government
Environmentalism: Remaining % of tax spent on environmental programs

Economic Subgame for Tileowners:

1. What is left after all taxes has been dealt with (based on in-game number and above taxation key).

This amount of wealth can be spent on laborers etc (non tile owners taking jobs), purchase resources, food, hammers, happiness and health.

2. Each tile-owners lifestyle dependent on food level on tile

1 Food - survival
2 Food - live comfortably
3 Food and above - trade away anything above 2 food

3. Each tile-owners spending power dependent on gold

Every second gold is untaxed and kept at estate by tileholder, rounding up.

4. Each tile-owners building production based on local hammers

Every second hammer is untaxed and kept at estate by tileholder, rounding up

For example:

Mansion will cost 20 hammers over time
Palisades will cost 10 hammers over time

5. Each tile-owners building production based on local health and happiness

Health provides local village to serve tile
Happiness Provides local palace
Freshwater provides 0.5 health
Coastlines provides 0.5 happiness

bonus health/happiness may be used for tourism, pilgrimage etc.

I think it is much too complex but I hope you prove me wrong.

I was merely mapping out the extent of it. I still think a system based on food, gold, and hammers could work out (scissors, rock & paper principle).

I think a simplified version of this may work. Also remember, the base equation based on civics is easy to make, as we are to play perhaps within 5-6 civic sets this game.

One civic category (Economy)that dictates our taxes to the Prime-faction and one (religious) that dictates the influence of the Church should suffice for taxing and say tithes. The rest can effect RP rights and such. Until we have the knowledge of currency I think we should stick to the resource only economy. Become an apprentice, learn an art and begin making an income from your master. With cultural expansion and new settlements we will be gaining resources steadily. We can't just IMHO throw a system out there this complex when we don't even have a currency to tax yet. Rightly so we should wait until we have mastered the tech then the territories can begin generating wealth for their land-owners.

I think taxing non-primefaction trading guilds say one yield per week would be a good way to start off great traditions like a lottery or even bribes.

I agree, no gold for landowners until currency. However, Happy Faces and Health would count as making their lives more comfortable, and hammers allow them to build some local buildings.

I think it is much too complex but I hope you prove me wrong.

As long as there is someone willing to run it/track it and someone willing to muddle through it - let 'em go for it.

DG II had a fairly strong RP element because someone did run/track these things and provided some nice focus to the RP. Subsequent DG's have failed to have such strong RP because of the lack of those two elements.

-- Ravensfire

I've had a night to think about it and a restructuring of the Trading Guild system could move things along at a better pace. First of all the force behind any economy is supply and demand. So it will be wise for us not too overinflate the economy early. With that being said a limited introduction of gold (which already exists metagame) will not compromise the RP principles.

There are currently 2 categories of trading guilds Merchant and Craftsmen. Adding a third will give us our Rock, paper and scissors

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/xXWarlordXx_2006/Commerce_icon.jpgMerchant Guilds
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/xXWarlordXx_2006/Production_icon.jpgCraftsmen Guilds
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/xXWarlordXx_2006/Food_icon.jpg Food Guilds (for lack of a better word)

I don't have time to get inta all the details right now or I'll be late for work. Simply put food yields will represent edible animals, crops etc. Hammers will represent yields like copper, iron etc and gold yields will bring gold into the game to balance supply and demand. For instance a horse may be 1 gold but a pound of Silver may be 2 gold. It allows some resources to be more valuable than others,. Sorry gotta go what do you yhink so far.

As long as there is someone willing to run it/track it and someone willing to muddle through it - let 'em go for it.

DG II had a fairly strong RP element because someone did run/track these things and provided some nice focus to the RP. Subsequent DG's have failed to have such strong RP because of the lack of those two elements.

-- Ravensfire

Yes as long as we keep it simple enough that new players can join in without an economics lesson and 1-2 DGers helps with records and keeping the game up to date..

I think pressing the "guild" term on absolutely everything would be a misnomer.

We are effectively talking about a Landowner Class (Aristocracy, Gentry), an Artisan Class (Construction, Craftsmen) and a Patrician Class (Traders, city specialists of various types such as Merchants, Priests, Engineers, Scientists and Entertainers).

The Aristocrat Class (Landowners) are those owning tiles outside the city
The Artisan Class are those building units and buildings inside the city
The Patrician Class are those producing slider-based services inside the city

We can apply a very easy and fundamental income model:

Landowners earn 0.25 gold per food per turn above 1 food (Population growth gives more labor etc, so the demographic increase indirectly helps landowners)
Landowners may use hammers within their tile to build local structures with a principle similar to the city buildings, just in a smaller scale. These hammers tend to be between zero hammers to 5-6 hammers at the maximum for mined iron ores.
Landowners retain all the gold they earn within their tile, and may spend it for added hammers and foods, or to buy new land, even sponsor a military unit or pay for their own workforce.

Stone Age Buildings for a landowner may be:

Tile Building (City Building) - where hammer cost for tile-buildings are 1/4 of the city building costs.

Tower (Palace) 40 (160) ***********************
Barn (Granary) 15 (60) Adds 50 % food production
Shrine (Temple) 20 (80) *********************
Warriors Camp (Barracks) 10 (60) Halves the number of accumulated resources lost in case of foreign army incursion
Horse pen (Stable) 15 (60) May contract other cities outside on district for trades
Seers Hall (Monastery) 15 (60) **********************
Village Hall (Court House) 30 (120) May initiate long term delivery contracts of food, resource and hammers
Tablets (Library) 25 (90) Gives 1 % of the beakers in gold, rounded up to 1, per technology gained
Quay (Lighthouse) 15 (60) Gives 2 gold every turn a ship is standing next to the tile
Trading Company (Market) 40 (150) Gives 10 Gold every time a foreign unit (barbarians or foreigners) passes by, and 20 gold if it lands on the tile
Statue (Obelisk) 10 (30) **************************
Palisades (Walls) 15 (50) Shelters buildings from barbarian or foreign pillaging, but if pillaged tile, palisades are lost

These tile buildings are basically built as they are done in the main civ game, just on a smaller scale, only utilizing what is available within a players tiles. These buildings are available up to Code of Laws.

There will also be a couple of tile-related "miniwonders", we may call these "marvels", of which only 1 can exist within the realm, these are the equivalent of national wonders.

These miniwonders are related to the unique opportunities near Arete

Provincial Palace (Forbidden Palace) 60 (250)
Provincial Epic (National Epic) 60 (250)
Provincial Dining Hall*** (Reliable access to 0.5 horse, Reliable access to 0.5 pig and reliable access to 0.5 fish) - Cost 50
Arete Transport Company (Reliable access to 0.5 horse and 2 food) -Cost 50
Arete Chariot-makers (Reliable access to 0.5 horse and 3 food) - Cost 50
Arete Thunderdome Fertilizer (Reliable access to 0.5 pig) - Cost 40
Arete Meat Company (Reliable access to 0.5 pig) - Cost 40
Arete Dryfish Company (Reliable access to 0.5 fish) - Cost 40
Arete Gravefish Company (Reliable access to 0.5 fish) - Cost 40

Within Arete, there can be only 2 food companies per source of food, which is a natural limitation. This means, there is a cap of 2 companies for each, horse, fish and pig.

Chariotmakers gain 5 gold per chariot produced.

I've had a night to think about it and a restructuring of the Trading Guild system could move things along at a better pace. First of all the force behind any economy is supply and demand. So it will be wise for us not too overinflate the economy early. With that being said a limited introduction of gold (which already exists metagame) will not compromise the RP principles.

There are currently 2 categories of trading guilds Merchant and Craftsmen. Adding a third will give us our

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/xXWarlordXx_2006/Commerce_icon.jpgMerchant Guilds
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/xXWarlordXx_2006/Production_icon.jpgCraftsmen Guilds
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/xXWarlordXx_2006/Food_icon.jpg Food Guilds (for lack of a better word)

I don't have time to get inta all the details right now or I'll be late for work. Simply put food yields will represent edible animals, crops etc. Hammers will represent yields like copper, iron etc and gold yields will bring gold into the game to balance supply and demand. For instance a horse may be 1 gold but a pound of Silver may be 2 gold. It allows some resources to be more valuable than others,. Sorry gotta go what do you yhink so far.

Maybe Farming Guild?

Alternatively, consider this:
-- Traders (move good from one place to another)
-- Merchants (sell goods)
-- Crafters (produce goods, includes farmers)

That would cover the three major aspects of economics. I would seperate Trade from Merchants due to the impact that both had. Traders might not come often to a town, but when they did, the impact was large. That leads to tension between Merchants and Traders. both depend on Crafters to produce the goods, but Crafters cannot depend on just one - Crafters give a more consistent market, but Traders can be a larger return (at higher risk). Traders also depend on Merchants for their supplies, plus also getting goods from Merchants.

-- Ravensfire

I agree to the trader- merchant divide with Ravensfire. I therefore suggest that "Trading companies" can only be attained by any of the three main classes as a mini-wonder or a sort of dedicated investment of accumulated means.

Craftsmen all rely on techs and access to resources to craft these:
This is an area for the ones not owning land can choose only.

There are also an industry for military equipment:

Charioteers (per unit of chariots built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Bowyers (per unit of archers built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Club-makers (per unit of warriors built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Boat-makers (per boat built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Masons (per building built, 1/10 of the hammers in gold)
Carpenters (per building built, 1/10 of the hammers in gold)
Tailors (consumer-based, 0.25 gold per 1 population) Dyes
Cooks (consumer-based, 0.25 gold per 1 population)
Woodcarver (consumer-based, 0.25 gold per 1 population)

Patrician Class is more tricky to properly portray in such a model.

Merchants
Priests
Scientists
Engineers
Citizens

All these gain a "Great People Bonus", which is divided equally on the patricians of a city within the same specialist class. A great person earns the total amount of gold produced in the same turn it emerges, and is distributed equally on all within the same specialty class. This is a rare occurence, but may be lucrative.

Merchants are also the only ones that can broker resources (food, hammers, gold, resources)
Priests are also the only ones that can
Scientists are rewarded 1/20 of the beakers a research provides, divided by the number of scientists in place, in gold.
Engineers are the only ones that can build roads and land improvements by utilizing workers, and would get 2 gold for each contracted road and 5 gold for each tile improvement they contract.
Citizens are also the only ones that can sell their labor (hammer) to any tile outside the city

For example, Seymoo of the Philosophers Legion and a landowner aristocrat, may decide to develop his property. However, there is no hammers to develop it, so he may decide to use his single gold for 14 turns to build up some capital. 15 turns times 1 gold gives 15 gold, for which he purchases 15 hammers . His Barn, a tile-version of Granary, halves the waste of food, so he can live on 1 food per turn only, as opposed to 2 turns before. This means that the next 15 turns, he can put away 15 food and 15 gold, and trade the food for gold as well, or other resources.

There could also be a revenue for tile-owners having a tile being worked by the city, for a premium of 0.25 gold per tile per turn.

I am already doing an economy type game for church members only. Although the rewards are based less on the game and more on RP.

I really like this idea. (Rest of post deleted to hide my ignorance)

I love the classes concept
I'm thinking about the fourth class:
The Knight Class (or Samuri Class?), those who have at least one unit to control (distributed by the government or sponsored by landlords), and they could receive a basic income from the country or landlords, and protect them from babarians and enemy units. Fight for honor or money...

The fourth class would require Vassalage and such. At the minimum more units and higher tech.

With all of the input so far from you guys I am starting to see that compromises will have to be made by all of us. I am beginning to see where you are taking this Prov and I like the idea but for simplicty sake I suggest we narrow it down a little for now. I will expand the economy to include land owners and non-landowners and move beyond just the Trading Guilds but will give them the influence they deserve as the suppliers of all Goods. Ravensfires supply and demand system is superior to mine so I think we should use it in conjunction with some of the other posters ideas. Yakami's Samurai/Knight (Warrior?) class is also a nice addition and will open up new avenues. Strider, I thought your ida was more of an off the beaten path roleplay for Churchmembers only but I will take a look at it again and see how we can tie it in if the Church so chooses. So I am off to spend a couple of hours tying it all in and see what we can come up with.

Expanded Ruleset for Economic Subgame

Landowner-Class

Arete Aristocrats

We apply a very easy and fundamental income model:


Landowners earn 0.25 gold per food per turn above 1 food (Population growth gives more labor etc, so the demographic increase indirectly helps landowners)
Landowners may use hammers within their tile to build local structures with a principle similar to the city buildings, just in a smaller scale. These hammers tend to be between zero hammers to 5-6 hammers at the maximum for mined iron ores.
Landowners retain all the gold they earn within their tile, and may spend it for added hammers and foods, or to buy new land, even sponsor a military unit or pay for their own workforce.


Stone Age Buildings for a landowner may be:

Tile Building (City Building) - where hammer costs are 1/4 of the city costs.


Mansion (Palace) 40 (160) Prerequisite for owning more than 2 tiles
Barn (Granary) 15 (60) Adds 50 % food production
Shrine (Temple) 20 (80) Prerequisite for owning three neighboring tiles
Warriors Camp (Barracks) 10 (60) Halves the number of accumulated resources lost in case of foreign army incursion
Stuttery (Stable) 15 (60) May contract other cities outside on district for trades
Seers Hall (Monastery) 15 (60) Prerequisite for owning two neighboring tiles
Village Hall (Court House) 30 (120) May initiate long term delivery contracts of food, resource and hammers
Tablets (Library) 25 (90) Gives 1 % of the beakers in gold, rounded up to 1, per technology gained
Quay (Lighthouse) 15 (60) Gives 2 gold every turn a ship is standing next to the tile
Trading Company (Market) 40 (150) Gives 10 Gold every time a foreign unit (barbarians or foreigners) passes by, and 20 gold if it lands on the tile
Statue (Obelisk) 10 (30) Prerequisite for owning one neighboring tile
Palisades (Walls) 15 (50) Shelters buildings from barbarian or foreign pillaging, but if pillaged tile, palisades are lost


These tile buildings are basically built as they are done in the main civ game, just on a smaller scale, only utilizing what is available within a players tiles. These buildings are available up to Code of Laws.

There will also be a couple of tile-related "miniwonders", we may call these "marvels", of which only 1 can exist within the realm, these are the equivalent of national wonders.

These miniwonders are related to the unique opportunities near Arete, there will be a different set of miniwonders per city depending on local resources and geography


Provincial Palace (Forbidden Palace) 60 (250)
Provincial Epic (National Epic) 60 (250)
Provincial Dining Hall*** (Reliable access to 0.5 horse, Reliable access to 0.5 pig and reliable access to 0.5 fish) - Cost 50
Arete Transport Company (Reliable access to 0.5 horse and 2 food) -Cost 50
Arete Chariot Stuttery (Reliable access to 0.5 horse and 3 food) - Cost 50
Arete Thunderdome Fertilizer (Reliable access to 0.5 pig) - Cost 40
Arete Meat Company (Reliable access to 0.5 pig) - Cost 40
Arete Dryfish Company (Reliable access to 0.5 fish) - Cost 40
Arete Gravefish Company (Reliable access to 0.5 fish) - Cost 40


Within Arete, there can be only 2 food companies per source of food, which is a natural limitation. This means, there is a cap of 2 companies for each, horse, fish and pig.

Chariot Stuttery gains 5 gold per chariot produced.




Patrician Class


Merchants (Exclusive brokering rights within Arete District)
Priests (Provided 1 gold per culture production per turn in the city)
Scientists (Provided 1/20 of the beakers a research provides in gold)
Engineers (2 gold per road built and 10 gold per tile improvement)
Citizens (The only ones that can sell hammers to non-city tiles, 1 per turn)


All these gain a also "Great People Bonus", which is divided equally on the patricians of a city within the same specialist class. A great person earns the total amount of gold produced in the same turn it emerges, and is distributed equally on all within the same specialty class. This is a rare occurence, but may be lucrative.

Artisan Class

The artisans may have two parallel careers


Charioteers (per unit of chariots built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Bowyers (per unit of archers built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Club-makers (per unit of warriors built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Boat-makers (per boat built, 1/6 of the hammers in gold)
Masons (per building built, 1/10 of the hammers in gold)
Carpenters (per building built, 1/10 of the hammers in gold)
Tailors (consumer-based, 0.25 gold per 1 population) Dyes
Cooks (consumer-based, 0.25 gold per 1 population)
Woodcarver (consumer-based, 0.25 gold per 1 population)
Citizen (May sell 1 hammer per turn as migrant laborer to tiles)

Proposal for Civic applicaton to economic subgame[/B]

Government Civics

Handles land ownership


Despotism Land tiles may be given away, but not taken
Hereditary Rule Land tiles may be inherited and traded
Representation Land tiles may be bought and sold, but also ratified by poll
Police State Land tiles may be expropriated and redistributed
Universal Suffrage Land tiles may be regulated by public proposals and polls



Legal Civic

Handles Military Unit Ownership


Barbarism: There is a separate, professional faction dealing with war
Vassalage: Military Class emerges, players individually titled by government
Bureaucracy: Military divided into several independent specialty organizations
Nationhood: National Army, military is government operated by prime faction
Free Speech: Military operations dictated by public polls as in traditional demogames


Labor Civic

Handles ownership of workers (units)

Tribalism: Workers owned by Prime Faction
Slavery: Workers owned by Prime Faction Leader
Serfdom: Workers owned by Landowner Class
Caste System: Workers owned by Patrician Class
Emancipation: Workers owned by Artisan Class

TAXATION

Taxation handled by religion and economy civics

Religion Civic


Paganism 5 % taxed from each player to a religious society
Organized Religion 10 % taxed from each player to a religious society
Theology 20 % taxed from each player to a religious society
Pacifism 5 % taxed from each player to a religious society
Free Religion 0 % taxed from each player to a religious society


Economy Civic

Decentralization: 20 % taxed from each player to City Government
Mercantilism: 30 % taxed from each player to City Government
Free Market: 10 % taxed from each player to City Government
State Property: 50 % taxed from each player to City Government
Environmentalism: 40 % taxed from each player to City Government

Lets take it back to the beginning Giruvegan Land Law (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6668290&postcount=21) and start from here.

Land-Owners are given a tile by the Prime-Faction leader (Cap City) and by Provincial Governors in future Cities. The P-F leader and Governors themselves own the the actual city tiles and therefore should have the most power in the Economic Sub-game as they are the Federal and local Gov't heads in the RP atmosphere. The tile yields are infact used in city for economic, industrial and population growth. This should be taken into account before we give the yields to the land-owners. For RP purposes I propose we call the yields going to the city from each tile taxes. So the yields shown on the Game map will represent a percentage of the tiles actual yield, the percentage is yet to be determined. Landowners can use their yields to invest in their cities for a return.They may also use them to build structures within their home tiles to encourage business in their territory. Provo has laid out a model for this but I would like for us to lightin it up a bit before making it official. Engineers would be hired and yields would be the "materials" used in the buildings construction.

Land-ownership is also dependent on the Civics as certain ones like "State Property", "Police State" and "Vassalage" should either abolish land-ownership or change it to faction only ownership.


Using a gold system is a little tricky this early in the game. I proposed a barter system but clearly this would only work for trading between guilds and not the economic system we have laid out here. I propose a set amount of gold per player to start the sub-game dependent on class. If someone has a better idea please suggest it.

Lands gained that either have a resource or discover a resource will give the owner the ability to start a trading guild. The trading guilds will be the source of all supplies to the economy. All resources start off as raw material and the guild will receive a predetermined amount of RM each week. The RM now must be turned into goods and that is where our Specialist classes come in. Keep in mind that even horses are Raw Material as they must be trained so the RM goes for all resources no exceptions.

Specialist Classes:
Craftsmen- Buy RM from the Trading Guilds and produce goods from this raw material. A craftsmen can include anything from ironworker, Horsetrainer. Gemsmith, Winemaker, Chariotmaker, Engineer, etc....

Traders- Buy a quantity of Goods from the Craftsmen and sell it to the Merchants. Craftsmen must sell their goods to a Trader as it is their specialty to travel the known world to find all things exotic for the local populations.

Merchants- Buy the goods from the traders and sell them at their local shops (buildings) and companies. So by the time a steak reaches a citizen it has gone from the Pasture (Guild) through the chop house (craftsmen) and down a long road (Trader) to your local Eatery (Merchant).

Citizens- The default class for all participants that are not Specialists.

A Citizen can only hold one specialist title at any one time.Though Craftsmen may learn multiple skills. The first one is free and aech additional one will take 2 weeks to master. Traders must own a form of transportation to get the goods from one place to another. Right now chariots would be our only means of transportation. The vehicles will have a limit on the amount of each RM they can haul. I propose using a weight unit system to simplify this. For example gold is heavier than corn so 1 unit of gold would be equivelent to say 10 units corn. Merchants can own multiple shops (or buildings) but must build them. In turn they will need to pay an engineer to build one and the payment and time to build will depend on the engineers experience. I propose a Specialist earn xp but we can debate that later.

*I will stop here for now and let you guys weigh in.

I think the presented proposal I come with provides all players plenty of opportunity from gaining gold gradually. We cannot have a system with "start capital", since that would be too gamey for a start like this.

I also think "trading" should be institutionalized in wonders/projects, and not be a profession, simply due to the administration surrounding it and the fact that trading is a business all classes can aspire to over time, if they prioritize it enough.

Specialist classes remain with a citizen until a new Prime Faction change come into place, or there will be too much book-keeping with some of the wilder players changing class all the time.

Also when it does come around, what reward for owning a farm that feeds the city of Arete, surely I do not do it purely out of nationalistic fervour (not that seymoo is not fervantly nationalistic)

I think seymoo brings up an interesting point here. Landowners help to feed the people of the their city, contribute to the production and local economy. Once their tile is improved they could then name it (Seymoo Farm for example). They could then profit based on their contribution to the city.