Hi,

I recently tried a Prince game where I **attempted** a specialist economy. I actually did quite well but couldn't quite pull it off. I did especially poorly in the late game. In the 1900's (normal speed game) I was only generating 700-800 points of research at 100% research. When I run a cottage economy, I usually generate 1500 or so...

I did a few good things: picked a philosophical leader, got the Parthenon, got Pacifism early, and built the national epic in my major GPfarm.

However, I really struggled to get sufficient research. Part of the problem is that I'm used to running my favorite civics: Free Speech, Emancipation, Free Religion, Free Market, and Universal Sufferage. The other problem that I have is that I don't know when to start plugging in specialists. My primary "specialist" city (my capital) had the national epic and the globe theater. It could grow as big as possible, but the problem was health. If a rival canceled a trade agreement, my city would suddenly be in starvation. It was hard to max out the specialists.

So, question 1. What civics? I imagine that Representation and Civil Service is good, but how do you deal the the unhappiness caused by other civs who have emancipation?

Question 2. How do you decide how many specialists to run in a city? I think my strategy of maxing out the city population doesn't actually work even if I can handle the unhappiness (which I usually can).

Thanks,

-- SJN

1)For civics, Representation is the obvious choice for column 1. For column 2 Free Speech is probably not the right choice due to lack of towns in an SE, but there isn't really an obviously best civic. Bureaucracy is fairly popular, particularly on smaller maps. Nationhood is also worth considering, particularly in BtS.

For the third column Caste System is generally the civic of choice - You suffer unhappiness when other civs start running emancipation, but it's the only way to maintain well focused cities later on. Running a mix of specialists due to limits on slots is generally less effective (especially for controlling what kind of great people you get).

Column 4 is the most debatable. Mercantilism works well early on, but deteriorates as your cities grow, and you lose more by having no foreign trade routes. State Property is good for a large empire, but not much good for a smaller one, and sacrificing corporations in BtS is dodgy. Enviromentalism can be a good choice for the extra health, due to the larger cities of an SE, but is very expensive in BtS if you're running corporations. Free Market is kind of the default option if you're not in a position that specifically favours the others.

Column 5, pacifism obviously ties in well in the early stages, but deteriorates as the game goes on and great people become scarcer. Also requires a religion, and for diplomatic reasons Free Religion is often preferable.

2)I generally find it best to get the city population up to the happy cap, and then start running some specialists. As you advance the cap will increase, and you can put specialists back on farms for a bit to catch up until you hit the final limit on available food.

Thanks, MrCynical. But the problem I was having with specialists in my cities wasn't the unhappiness, it was the health. I found that I had to employ most of my farms to keep my maximum size and if anyone canceled a trade agreement with a health item, I was in big trouble (starvation, or let go of a specialist).

In particular, in my capital (which had the globe theater, or whatever it's called) I was only running four or five specialists, and that was my limit.

-- SJN

Hitting the health cap is rather less important than hitting the happy cap - the unhealthy specialists still work fine, but just cost and extra food each. Even if they're unhealthy you may as well grow to the limit of available food. Enviromentalism can act as a quick (but expensive) fix.

In particular, in my capital (which had the globe theater, or whatever it's called) I was only running four or five specialists, and that was my limit.

Unless you're quite early in the game, that seems rather low. Have you farmed/windmilled everything? Some maps are less suited to the SE due to lack of irrigatable terrain, but you can usually get more than 4 or 5 specialisrs per city by mid game.

Unless you're quite early in the game, that seems rather low. Have you farmed/windmilled everything? Some maps are less suited to the SE due to lack of irrigatable terrain, but you can usually get more than 4 or 5 specialisrs per city by mid game.

that's exactly my point. I can't have any more specialists because the unhealthiness (which grows with my city size) drains more and more of my food. Put another way, even though I have farms with biology on flood plains, I had to have most squares worked to not go into starvation because of the unhealthiness.

I didn't have medicine researched yet, so I didn't have hospitals....

-- SJN

that's exactly my point. I can't have any more specialists because the unhealthiness (which grows with my city size) drains more and more of my food. Put another way, even though I have farms with biology on flood plains, I had to have most squares worked to not go into starvation because of the unhealthiness.

I didn't have medicine researched yet, so I didn't have hospitals....

-- SJN

Can you rush The Hanging Gardens?

Could you post a save game to look at? It's generally the easiest way to identify problems.

I'll post a save game later when I get home tonight. Try not to laugh too hard, I make lots of mistakes.

-- SJN

I'll post a save game later when I get home tonight. Try not to laugh too hard, I make lots of mistakes.

-- SJN

Who doesn't? How else can you learn?

1)For civics, Representation is the obvious choice for column 1. For column 2 Free Speech is probably not the right choice due to lack of towns in an SE, but there isn't really an obviously best civic. Bureaucracy is fairly popular, particularly on smaller maps. Nationhood is also worth considering, particularly in BtS.

For the third column Caste System is generally the civic of choice - You suffer unhappiness when other civs start running emancipation, but it's the only way to maintain well focused cities later on. Running a mix of specialists due to limits on slots is generally less effective (especially for controlling what kind of great people you get).

MrCynical,

Nationhood's (column 2) +2 happiness from Barracks can help offset the lack of Emancipation (column 3) leaving you to run Caste System or Serfdom depending on which mode you're in.

Column 4 is the most debatable. Mercantilism works well early on, but deteriorates as your cities grow, and you lose more by having no foreign trade routes. State Property is good for a large empire, but not much good for a smaller one, and sacrificing corporations in BtS is dodgy. Enviromentalism can be a good choice for the extra health, due to the larger cities of an SE, but is very expensive in BtS if you're running corporations. Free Market is kind of the default option if you're not in a position that specifically favours the others.

Interesting. I find that as I get bigger Mercantilism helps more than anything else. +6 free research in every city (before modifiers) seems to get more useful as you get bigger, not less. What am I doing wrong?

I personally like to run bureaucracy with my capital being the only city for which I build cottages. If I have extra food there, I run merchant specialist and throw wall st. This gives a powerful city that creates a lot of gold, helping to offset the maintenance cost of the empire and troops. Makes for a good corporation headquarters. One downside, though, is if you found a religion it is likely not in the capital and you therefore don't get large gold multipliers on the shrine income.

Generally I will have 1-2 production cities (1 HE/WP, the other IW), depending on terrain as well as 2-3 farmed/windmilled science cities (with NE/Oxford/GT between 2 of them and possibly NP later on). Any remaining cities I generally turn into hybrids running only 1-2 scientists with the lesser national wonders (moai statues/hermitage etc.)

Make sure you are building the health multiplier buildings in cities and consider, in your science/gold/spy specialist cities, NOT building factories and power-plants. If you are running Merchantilism consider skipping Airports in many of these cities as well. In a few that run engineers and/or priests you may want to build these but usually your supply of engineers and priests is more limited than you ability to feed and keep them healthy.

Interesting. I find that as I get bigger Mercantilism helps more than anything else. +6 free research in every city (before modifiers) seems to get more useful as you get bigger, not less. What am I doing wrong?

Well foreign trade routes are worth substantially more commerce than the domestic ones Mercantilism restricts you to. Domestic routes are rarely worth more than about 4-6 per turn, whereas foreign routes are often well into double figures. As the number of routes increases throughout the game, you can often be losing 20-30 commerce per city to Mercantilism - mcuh more than you gain from a specialist. Trade routes are particularly powerful under an SE due to the larger populations of fully farmed cities.

It's a fair point about the happiness boost from Nationhood. A cottaged capital and running Bureaucracy is also quite popular though.

Well foreign trade routes are worth substantially more commerce than the domestic ones Mercantilism restricts you to. Domestic routes are rarely worth more than about 4-6 per turn, whereas foreign routes are often well into double figures. As the number of routes increases throughout the game, you can often be losing 20-30 commerce per city to Mercantilism - mcuh more than you gain from a specialist. Trade routes are particularly powerful under an SE due to the larger populations of fully farmed cities.

MyCynical,

The problem with foreign trade routes is that I seem to run out of them. If my empire is spawning X cities, and there are only X*2 other cities in the world, then I can only have X*2 total foreign trade routes. Instead I can get X*6 research from Scientists or X*5 from Merchants AND be producing great person points, AND be denying my enemies trade routes with me.

Help me out with some math here, please:

How many Trade routes does a city get near the end game? 5 or 6? (I usually don't build Airports.) With the base commerce of a trade route being about 2-3, foreign trade is usually only 150% of that. That's only about 1-2 EXTRA commerce per trade route. I'm going to assume 100% Science, so translated that's about 1.5 science per trade route if there are enough foreign cities.

So 1.5 * 5 is 7.5 bonus commerce per city. Where as 1 extra specialist is 6 science. However I'm assuming there are X*5 cities available to trade with me. If there are orly X*4, then that's only 1.5*4, or 6, which is the same number I come up with if I convert to Mercantilism, however I'm both producing Great Person points for my own civilization, AND denying my enemies access to my trade routes.

Is my math sound, or did I mess up somewhere? It's been a while since I've done the whole trade route calculations and I might be missing a few things. But when I have a large empire, it just feels better to use Mercantilism. But I acknowledge that my feelings aren't always scientific. :)

The problem with foreign trade routes is that I seem to run out of them. If my empire is spawning X cities, and there are only X*2 other cities in the world, then I can only have X*2 total foreign trade routes. Instead I can get X*6 research from Scientists or X*5 from Merchants AND be producing great person points, AND be denying my enemies trade routes with me.

Denying your enemies trade routes does of course have some value. If your civ has a large percentage of the total cities on a map, Mercantilism is more favourable. You're still probably losing more in trade than you gain from the free specialist, but you slow your enemies by lack of foreign trade route options. On the other hand, if you're on a large or huge map with a dozenother civs, you don't want to be running Mercantilism.

How many Trade routes does a city get near the end game? 5 or 6? (I usually don't build Airports.) With the base commerce of a trade route being about 2-3, foreign trade is usually only 150% of that. That's only about 1-2 EXTRA commerce per trade route. I'm going to assume 100% Science, so translated that's about 1.5 science per trade route if there are enough foreign cities.

At the end of the game I think the base number is 4? (starting 1, +1 each from currency, economics and corporation? ) I might be missing one there. Also available are +1 from Free Market, +1 from Airports and +1 from the UN single currency, so you could get up to 7 depending on conditions. Carthage also gets +1 from their UB if you happen to be playing them.

The base commerce for a trade route is 0.1*population of other city, so 2-3 is reasonable late game, though maybe a fraction lower on average. That base has a possible set of modifiers of:

(150% for foreign trade route) + (25% capital connection) + (50% for harbour) + (+100% intercontinental) = 325%

So say your trade routes have a base value of 2 each. Domestic ones (even if intercontinental) will get (2*2.75)=6.05 commerce each. Foreign ones will get (2*4.25)= 8.5 commerce each. You're averaging a loss of 2.5 commerce per trade route, for a minimum of 4 trade routes. You're looking at losing at least 10 commerce, vs. the 6 sci from Mercantilism. There's also the issue that foreign routes are more likely to get the intercontinental bonus.

Also, this calculation boils down to - "is Mercantilism worse than useless?", not "is it doing better than the alternative civics?". I haven't for instance allowed for the extra trade route or cheap corporations as an incentive to avoid Mercantilism. Really the only sound argument I find for this is if you control such a large percentage of the world's cities that you running mercantilism will harm your enemies (and you could just close your borders to get that effect).

Really the only sound argument I find for this is if you control such a large percentage of the world's cities that you running mercantilism will harm your enemies (and you could just close your borders to get that effect).

I see a lot of what you said. I'll have to number crunch a few things, and focus on paying attention to Trade Routes more in my future games. However, if you closed boarders in the above situation, wouldn't you then be losing the very bonuses you're seeking out?

However, if you closed boarders in the above situation, wouldn't you then be losing the very bonuses you're seeking out?

Well the idea there is that you can run a different civic (e.g. State Property), while still preventing the other civs from forming trade routes with you. If you're only running Mercantilism to block foreign trade, you might find the maintenance savings of SP or the cheaper corporations of Free Market to be preferable, even with closed borders.

Well the idea there is that you can run a different civic (e.g. State Property), while still preventing the other civs from forming trade routes with you. If you're only running Mercantilism to block foreign trade, you might find the maintenance savings of SP or the cheaper corporations of Free Market to be preferable, even with closed borders.

Even while running Representation + Caste System?

The few times I've had a huge empire and swapped between Merc and SP or FM, I've noticed that while my gold may have increased (due to cheaper civics/maintenance) my science took a major hit, because I have that many fewer scientists. If I'm that large, chances are I have a holy city or two. All it takes in one or two holy cities and some decent spreading of your religions around to fund an entire empire and keep your slider at 100%. I guess it really makes me wonder at which point the line should be drawn. X*2, X*3, X*4, X*5, etc.

MrCynical, I'd ask for your help in testing this, but I already have another test project in the works. :crazyeye: I guess I'll have to leave this for another day. :)

Thanks for the info.

This might be obvious, but since the OP didn't mention details...

The key to getting lots of :science: in SE is the so called "Super science city".

This city should have all possible :science: boosting buildings, including Academy and the Oxford University. All great scientists that aren't lightbulbed should be settled here. Remember that Representation affects settled great persons as well, not just normal specialists! Other stuff this city might have (depending on playing style, settings, etc), are the Great Library, National Epic and National Park. Improvements should focus almost solely on food, with maybe a few hammers. Ideally, this should also be your capital.

As for running specialists, I usually put the city on auto, choose :gp:, and force a scientist. This way, the computer will run as many scientists as it can, while still feeding them. Note, however, that the computer will try to hit the city's happiness cap before running specialists, though, so this might not be wise if the city isn't properly improved yet.

If properly run, this city should be generating >90% of your :science:, even with the slider set to 0%. The exact amount depends on settings and how far you're in the game, but getting 1000+ later on is certainly possible.


When running Caste System (which you should be doing), they key to handling unhappiness from Emancipation is the culture slider. Since the happiness generated from it isn't related to the amount of commerce produced, this is the ideal use for your commerce in mid/late game SE. Don't forget to build those theaters, though.

That said, in late-game SE, Caste System isn't that important anymore. Library, Observatory and Laboratory give you a decent amount of science specialists slots anyway, plus most of your :science: is coming from already settled great scientists. So you can run other types of specialists as well, engineers for instance. Same thing as with Pacifism and Free Religion, as someone mentioned already.

That said, in late-game SE, Caste System isn't that important anymore. Library, Observatory and Laboratory give you a decent amount of science specialists slots anyway, plus most of your :science: is coming from already settled great scientists. So you can run other types of specialists as well, engineers for instance. Same thing as with Pacifism and Free Religion, as someone mentioned already.
I agree with most of what you said except this. I think what you suggest is viable, but not all SEs run that way.

IMO there is generally just one type of CE, with minor nitpicks of implementation. Meanwhile, there are several very different types of SE.

Anyway, if you don't run Caste in a modern era SE, that's the difference between 10+ and 5 scientists per city. While not a huge amount of beakers, it's nothing to sneeze at, especially if you have a lot of cities.

Mostly, at that point in the game, it depends on what victory you're going for. Space, you'll probably want those extra beakers. Domination or whatever, probably just as well to run a mix of Engineers and Scientists, so you don't suffer Emancipation unhappiness on top of WW, plus the extra hammers will be useful cranking out units everywhere.

Wodan