Say you can only have one, the rest of your army is top of the line medieval stuff like longbows, maces, trebuchets and knights. A reasonable assumption; rifling and steel are on very different tech paths.

I'm one of those dudes that just goes right for rifling. Is this really the right move, though? Even medieval units can beat riflemen if behind enough protection. Spies are unreliable defense droppers who can't collateral. Castles own trebuchets, but cannons eat right through them, and can actually live after attacking to cause collateral. Macemen and knights should be enough to mop up.

So by being riflefag # 54656869, am I doing it wrong?

Unless I'm relying heavily on cottages, I like to set up Steel as the Prize for Liberalism: better workshops the tech before so I can crank out shiny new cannons... medieval units are more than enough to clean up.

If you are in a tech lead then steel and the nearby military science (for grenadiers) works very well. Your major weakness is if your opponent gets gunpowder and military tradition (i.e., they have currassiers - and build lots of them.) Plus, you get access to the military academy. Knights work OK once cannon are done and if you are up against a backward foe you can still flank their catapults and trebs while they cannot touch your cannon.

Once the AI starts having lots of currassiers and/or cavalry you need rifles for defense.

Spies are good but, even with numbers, unless you detour down the nationalism/constitution path having enough EP to take out many cities either leaves you with minimal intelligence on other civs or requires you to dedicate some slider commerce.

If you don't plan on warring then going for rifles seems generally better since you get better land improvement techs (printing press, replaceable parts, etc...) and rifles are the next step up in defense after longbows/muskets. You can get your new defenders up while you castles are becoming obsolete and with minimal gap after the AI gets military tradition+gunpowder.

I'd like to say cannons, provided that the enemy doesn't have them yet, but a rifle monopoly is just too good an advantage to ignore.

If you can adopt Nationhood and have your Globe Theatre Drafting Station set up, Riflemen.

If not, Cannons.

It's map/situation dependent for me, but I tend to favor cannons. No need to bother with upgrading CR units, cannons ARE CR units. With collateral damage anything can clean up, just as you say (though I recommend mostly muskets and maybe some knights...both are on this techpath).

The main difference though, is victory type pursued (for me anyway). The bottom path kind of dead-ends a bit after grens/cannons, as you'll need top path stuff to use anything after them. This is fine, if you plan on wiping out 2+ civs (or forcing capitulation), because the grenades and cannons will last that long. If it's not feasible to hit civs like this, then rifles are probably better, setting you up for a faster transition into modern warfare, while those that went down the cannon path are still behind.

Keep in mind that pikes and crossbows both upgrade to grenadiers as well, so you can pre-build some of them while teching steel and then 100% gold for a bit and mass-upgrade after military science.

Rifles. If you have a nice set of CR3 macemen, then you won't even need siege other than to reduce defences. CR3 Rifles just slice through any defending longbows (except for maybe protective CG3 longbows).

Rifles. If you have a nice set of CR3 macemen, then you won't even need siege other than to reduce defences. CR3 Rifles just slice through any defending longbows (except for maybe protective CG3 longbows).

When attacking cities that have castles reducing defenses with gunpowder siege is a significant advantage and can save you many turns of bombardment.

A CG3 longbow is a CG3 longbow (drill I makes minimal difference), being protective just makes getting that CG3 promotion a lot easier.

Rifles if you're planning to draft and rely on numbers. Otherwise cannon/grenadiers (which didn't get a mention in the OP but are very close to cannon).

Not to spam, but I agree exactly with pigswill.

With the ability to draft and draft big, riflemen are the way to go - especially if they're a monopoly.

If you're going to be building your units, massed cannons and grenadiers are phenominal, especially because the dumb AI tends to beeline for rifles for defense, even when you're chewing them apart with grenadiers.

Keep in mind that you should build a number of pikemen and have them promoted with the anti-mounted promotion - that makes them better than grenadier's vs. mounted units so the pikemen are picked on first when the knights/curiassers come a-callin'.

Good question, though...

Maps with a lot of land to conquer, go for rifles, with cuirassiers and cavalry for powerful backup. Espionage and trebuchets to lower defences.

Maps with lots of water and where you'll need a navy for an amphibious invasion or if you want to play with privateers, go for cannons and grenadiers. Cannons lower defences. Ships and naval superiority let you pick off weak off shore targets.

For me it's usually that simple.

It probably depends some on speed and difficulty setting but...
I always go for cannons first, with cannons it doesnt really matter what mediaval stuff the opponent have just collaterate them to oblivion and then you can pretty much finish the defenders off with axemen.

Even more so if you pull off the Lib-->Steel slingshot since they'll be so far behind that you would've researched rifles when/if you need a real defence.

If you're more on the same lvl of tech then I'm not that sure what'd be best to go for first. On the other hand cannons are pretty awesome for defence as well since you could them to cripple an offensive stack a LOT, while they heal or suicide you build more defense.

Not to spam, but I agree exactly with pigswill.

With the ability to draft and draft big, riflemen are the way to go - especially if they're a monopoly.

If you're going to be building your units, massed cannons and grenadiers are phenominal, especially because the dumb AI tends to beeline for rifles for defense, even when you're chewing them apart with grenadiers.

Keep in mind that you should build a number of pikemen and have them promoted with the anti-mounted promotion - that makes them better than grenadier's vs. mounted units so the pikemen are picked on first when the knights/curiassers come a-callin'.

Good question, though...
elephants are also an alternative to pikemen (just as cheap, earlier tech and better, unless you are on defensive terrain)

Maps with a lot of land to conquer, go for rifles, with cuirassiers and cavalry for powerful backup. Espionage and trebuchets to lower defences.

Maps with lots of water and where you'll need a navy for an amphibious invasion or if you want to play with privateers, go for cannons and grenadiers. Cannons lower defences. Ships and naval superiority let you pick off weak off shore targets.

For me it's usually that simple.

Additionally on water maps, Steel allows the building of Drydocks. And I would use Frigates both to defend the Galleons and to bombard the defences down, and use Cannons to weaken the defenders and Musketeers to take the city (if it has Walls/Castle). In BTS, you need 4 Frigates to take down 60% cultural defense in 2 turns, 5 for 80%. So you move your fleet next to the city, land your troops and have the Frigates bombard, next turn before your troops attack, your Frigates can bombard again and take the rest of the cultural defense down.

If you need immediate offensive power, Cannons are the way to go. This is typically if you're near an opponent with similar teching and production capabilities. That would mean he can probably build Castles and a heck of a lot of defenders and Knights. Bringing Trebuchets and Riflemen against an AI who can decimate your Trebs with Knights is a recipe for disaster.

Yes, he'll lose a lot of units, too, but your aim isn't to make him bleed. Your aim is to get cities and beat him in the minimum number of turns. Cannons have the same tech buildup as Musketmen, Grenadiers, and eventually, Cuirassers. Build Trebs, mass money for upgrading to Cannon and then attack immediately before he gets a chance to get to Cuirassers. If you time it right, he'll never get them in sufficient numbers to matter. You still have Muskets or Grens, after all, and Rifles will be coming up shortly anyway.

If you're in it for the long haul and need no immediate military power, get Rifles. Going that route, going for Cannons, too should not be a problem. Once you have Rifles, teching to and getting Cannons is a nonissue.

elephants are also an alternative to pikemen (just as cheap, earlier tech and better, unless you are on defensive terrain)

I always operate under the assumption that if you have ivory, use elephants instead of pikes. It doesn't actually go without saying on the boards, though.

Thanks for making that clear! :)

I'm a big fan of Rifling & drafting. In my last game I went from 6th out of 7 in terms of power to 3rd with a ~10 turns drafting & upgrading period. I crushed an opponent who had twice as many cities. He did get Rifles & Cavalry (I didn't have Cavs) during the war, but it didn't matter against Toku's Rifles. :)

Additionally on water maps, Steel allows the building of Drydocks. And I would use Frigates both to defend the Galleons and to bombard the defences down, and use Cannons to weaken the defenders and Musketeers to take the city (if it has Walls/Castle). In BTS, you need 4 Frigates to take down 60% cultural defense in 2 turns, 5 for 80%. So you move your fleet next to the city, land your troops and have the Frigates bombard, next turn before your troops attack, your Frigates can bombard again and take the rest of the cultural defense down.

You have been copying my tactics ;) That is exactly my way of thinking about this area of the tech tree, ships (built with drydocks), cannons and grenadiers and drafted muskets plus older follow on troops. After the cannons blast the defenders it doesn't much matter what troops you use to take the city. A CR3 maceman upgraded to a grenadier is nearly as good as a rifleman for picking off a tough defender. It all fits together great on a water based map.


Cannons have the same tech buildup as Musketmen, Grenadiers, and eventually, Cuirassers. Build Trebs, mass money for upgrading to Cannon and then attack immediately before he gets a chance to get to Cuirassers. If you time it right, he'll never get them in sufficient numbers to matter.

Another person using my tactics ;). Building a load of trebuchets in anticipation of upgrading to cannons is about the only upgrade I use in all my games (apart from the ubiquitous maceman to rifle of course :rolleyes:). Just as with Roxlimn, getting the Steel technology is a cause for war against one of my neighbours that needs to give me his cities. Cannons are the decisive weapon and it doesn't matter too much what the follow up troops are, I often have a mix of muskets, pike, longbow, xbow and HA to assist the macemen. Sometimes old fashioned swords and axes are added, trying to get to their CR3 threshold ready for upgrade to grenadiers once Military Science is researched :D.

I traditionally prefer Rifles. Closer to infantry / factories for the production advantage. Although reading these strats, a cannon/grenadier barrage sounds powerful.

Grabbing Steel of of Lib seems like an ambitious gamble that's difficult to achieve above Monarch. I don't think I would hold off on finishing Lib unless I was in a map where I was sure no one else would be able to ninja lib.

I preface this post by saying that I play at monarch level.

Why research liberalism? Just beeline to gunpowder after education, research or trade for engineering and start to build trebs (CR2 trebs if you have a settled GG or are in theocracy is best.)

Then just research chemistry and Steel and then upgrade your trebs to cannon (ONLY 80 gold a piece.) At that point, you can accompany your cannon with archers if you want, it doesn't matter. The cannon are unstoppable at that point. You may find the odd crussier or two, but they will not have them in any numbers enough to affect the outcome, because you beelined to steel right away and upgraded your trebs. Try to have you best (non capital) production city with the heroic epic and a GG promotion to crank out cannons every 2nd or 3rd turn.

CR cannons en masse are just amazing. A CR 2 cannon will have a city attack value of 18. You will not lose many of them even against dug in city defender 2 longbows. The really cool thing about them, though, is the collateral damage. After 4 Riflemen attack a city guarded by 10 units you still have 6 fully functional units to take on. After 4 Cannons attack a city, you have 6units with strength of 1 to 1.5 that can then be safely mopped up by the ancient or medieval units that you had lying around from your first war.

In a lot of cases, you can promote 3-4 cannon with the accuracy promotion, knock down the defenses (followed by your CR 2 cannons mowing everything down), and in the SAME TURN, conquer the city with your obsolete mele units that you brought with you. This lack of unit attrition helps keep war weariness down, which subsequently allows a faster conquest and quicker return to restoring your economy. You also don't need to waste resources on building anything other then cannons. They work OK in the field for attack or defense as well, although I would crank out a pikemen or 2 for defense in your SOD if the enemy has a lot of knights (which is a good possibility.)

After the war, you can trade steel (which the AI NEVER emphasizes) for pretty much everything else you need to fill in your tech tree as steel is an expensive tech and has a high trade value. Just obviously don't trade to anyone that you want to attack before you get to artillery.

As an added bonus, you get to build the ironworks in your capital to help you wonder spam all the really hammer intesive late game wonders.

When I played at Noble in the old days, I used to try win the liberalism race and then tech towards rifles, then use rifles and ignore cannons. I use a GA and turned research to 0% for 8-10 turns to upgrade my CR2 & CR3 swordsman to lead the assault. I always encounter longbows and taking cities is no problem without siege.

When I played at Prince later, I discovered that the strat did not work any more as I was encountering grenadiers and musketmen. I changed it a bit. I still go for liberalism but I started to beeline infantry after rifles while ignoring optics and astronomy, and basically use infantry to lead the assault, with rifles as garrison / backup. Problem solved. Again without using siege.

Now, I play at Monarch, the strat does not work as by the time I have a good handful of infantry, the AI is on its way to railroad and machineguns. I changed it again. I ignore the liberalism race, ignore nationalism/democracy route and ignore the astronomy route. Instead, I beeline chemistry via guilds, and then tech steel and MS. I use 2 GA (I save up 3 GPs for the 2GAs) and turn research off to upgrade trebs to cannons, and swordsmen to granadiers. I try to get the Mids to use police state when attacking, as I have no jails and ww is a serious issue, sometimes also emanipation problems. I also trade my health resources for happiness resources. That works so far.

I am sure when I go up to Emperor in the future, I will realise this strat does not work any more and I have to figure out a new teching order. :crazyeye:

Playing at monarch, I almost always run the liberalism race, ignoring the feudalism/guilds/banking line (which you need for RepParts). I can usually set up chemistry for the free tech (sometimes steel). As many others have said, cannons are just so overpowered for this era that it's hard to resist. I've found it a great way to transition from an SE to SE/CE hybrid economy -- by taking over some rich matured towns in a neighboring civ's cities. Instant CE! :lol: I use the war to extort feudalism/guilds/banking from my victim, which greatly speeds up rifling. Sometimes, though, I just go for grens after steel if I see that I can pick off a couple of neighboring civs. Cannons/grens used on the offensive can be gambreaking. I rarely have any problem with cuirassiers because I never stop attacking -- you can see the AI's research and production tank as you gobble up their cities. With all the fully developed land that I capture, my economy just takes off, and I find I can easily beat the AIs to infantry/destroyers.

Cannons are the preferred choice because:

1. Chemistry-Steel aren't emphasized by the AI (especially Steel, as mentioned by another), so they are good trade bait. (I play no tech brokering)

2. Cannons don't have a hard counter until you meet rifles/cavalry. Cuirassiers can stop them if they attack 1st, but the AI seems to produce few of those, and by which point you will have better stack and city defenders.

3. I often try to trade for Printing Press/Rep. Parts (AI willing to trade those 2), and research Steam Power & Railroad. (No tech brokering again). I trade for Military Science if I can.