Tyranny's Dual-phase Tech Tree Expansion
BasicTree Version - 0.5
ExpTree Version - Unreleased

Purpose
The purpose of this mod is to significantly rework and rebalance the FfH tech tree, with the goals of increasing tech tree length and revitalizing the less-used portions of the tree through integration of existing lines and more expansive prerequisites for the techs. It is designed to reduce the focus on specialization and provide for a more balanced game. Additionally, it attempts to reduce the early game wait, especially on all-forest starts.

Basically, while I love FfH, I want a little more authentic build and develop a Civilization empire feel in the midgame (=

A side effect of this mod may be that the AI has a greater chance, since it doesn't typically do so well on the specialization route that FfH vanilla is a proponent of.

Dual-Phase
This is a dual-phase mod. I will be published and maintaining two variants:
-BasicTree, a minimalist attempt which attempts to accomplish the above goals without adding any additional techs or units.
-ExpTree, currently my ongoing focus, adding in a significant number of the other early-game techs and units (spearmen, alphabet, etc) to really make the empire-building and unit choices stand out. No more one melee, one archer, one horseman choices. Also I intend to try to pull the late game tech tree a little bit closer to pinnacle techs - we'll see if ti works.

Further, since all components of this mod outside of the tech tree itself are modular, you can pick and choose if you don't like something.

Compatibility
This modmod is semi-modular. All current components of the mod are modular, except for the tech-tree changes themself - primarily tech location, cost, and prereqs.

No known incompatibilities exist with FfH BUG.

Each version comes with presupported XML files for vanilla FfH and FfH with Fall Further - just pick the proper directory.

No known conflicts yet with the modular sections or with XienWolf's Modular Mod files. Except for his Improvements ModMod - this has not been tested, and probably conflicts.

Installation
Installation:
To install this mod, choose the folder 'BTree 0.51 - Fall Further' or BTree 0.51 - Vanilla' depending on whether or not you are running Fall Further. Then copy the 'Assets' folder over to your main Fall from Heaven 031e folder. replacing the existing Assets folder.
You're installed!

Changelog - BasicTree - Summary

Version 0.51
Tweaked initial tech costs up around 20%
Moved chopping and workshops down a tech, increased mining cost to counterbalance
Tweaked down Lumbermills
Squashed a bug or two

Version 0.5 - first public release

Rearranged the technology tree and prerequisities with the goal streamlining play, increasing use of other trees, and reducing 'beeline for the best unit' gameplay. Merged archery/military and tied mobility closer to economy
Lowered initial tech costs by 30-45%, second tier by 10%
Reduced archery cost by 33% and archer cost by 25%
Tweaked other technology costs to balance out specific areas and make each line more useful
Provided economic incentives to lesser-used technology lines
Made water/wind/lumbermills available earlier and provided bonuses to them with higher tier technologies




Changelog - BasicTree - Detail
Version 0.51

Taxation - Fixed bug where Money Changer granted +1 Food
Fiefdoms - Removed production bonus from Lumbermills
Fiefdoms - Changed Windmills bonus to Fiefdoms from Engineering
Construction - Removed production bonus from Lumbermills
Bronze Working - Added Workshops; removed from Smelting
Construction - Added remove Jungle; removed from Sanitation
Mining - Added Chop Forests; removed from Bronze Working
Mining - Increased cost to 240 from 180
Agriculture - Increased cost to 100 from 80
Exploration - Increased cost to 78 from 60
Crafting - Increased cost to 90 from 70
Ancient Chants - Increased cost to 85 from 65
Fishing - Increased cost to 100 from 80
Mysticism - Reduced cost to 170 from 180


Version 0.5 - first public release
Agriculture - Cost reduced to 80
Agriculture - Removed Agriculture Civic
Ancient Chants - Cost reduced to 65
Animal Husbandry - Cost reduced to 180
Animal Husbandry - Prereqs OR Hunting, Agriculture
Animal Husbandry - Subdue Animal Removed
Animal Mastery - Cost raised to 3600
Archery - Changed Archer Unit Class Cost to 45, Javelin Thrower to 70 (-15, -20 respectively)
Archery - Cost reduced to 200
Archery - Prereq changed to Exploration, removed Hunting prereq
Armored Cavalry - Cost reduced to 4800
Armored Cavalry - Prereqs to Iron Working, Feudalism; Removed Warhorses
Armored Cavalry - Renamed to 'Fiefdoms'
Armored Cavalry (Fiefdoms) - Grant +1 commerce to villages, +2 to towns; +1 production to towns
Armored Cavalry (Fiefdoms) - Knight Unit Class - Requires Armored Cavalry, Warhorses
Armored Cavalry (Fiefdoms) - Grants +1 Production, +1 Commerce to Lumbermills
Astronomy - Cost reduced to 1400
Astronomy - Prereq to Optics, Construction, Cartography
Blasting Powder - Prereqs to AND Iron Working; OR Medicine, Engineering
Bowyers - Cost reduced to 1600
Bowyers - Prereq changed to Warfare, Bronze Working; removed Archery prereq
Calendar - Added Agriculture Civic
Calendar - Prereq changed to Oral Tradition; Removed Agriculture
Cartography - Cost reduced to 160
Code of Laws - Prereq changed to Writing; removed Oral Tradition
Construction - Cost raised to 650
Construction - Grants +1 Production to Lumbermils
Construction - Prereq changed to be Mathematics, Masonry
Crafting - Cost reduced to 70
Currency - Prereq changed to Mathematics; removed Code of Laws
Divination - Prereq to OR Knowledge of the Ether, Priesthood
Divine Essence - Cost reduced to 7000
Drama - Prereq to Calendar, Festivals; removed Oral Tradition
Education - Renamed to 'Oral Tradition'
Engineering - Grants +1 Food, +1 Commerce to Windmills
Engineering - Grants +1 Production, +1 Commerce to Watermills
Engineering - Removed Watermills
Engineering - Removed Windmills
Engineering - Removed the Great Engineer
Exploration - cost reduced to 60
Fanaticism - Prereq changed to Priesthood, Feudalism; removed Code of Laws
Festivals - Cost reduced to 170
Festivals - Prereq to Agriculture; removed Calendar
Feudalism - Cost reduced to 1000
Fishing - Cost reduced to 80
Future Tech - Renamed to 'Further Enlightenment'
Guilds - Grants +2 Production to Workshops (from +1)
Guilds - Shadow Unit Class- Added Poisons Requirement
Honor - Prereqs changed to Code of Laws, Way of the Wise; removed Trade
Horseback Riding - Cost reduced to 270
Hunting - Cost reduced to 270
Hunting - Hunting Lodge - Added +1 Food
Masonry - Cost reduced to 160
Mathematics - Added Windmills
Mathematics - Cost reduced to 400
Mathematics - Prereqs to AND Philosophy, OR Warfare, Writing
Mercantilism - Prereqs to Trade, Guilds
Military Strategy - Cost raised to 1000
Miltiary Strategy - Prereq changed to Bowyers, Philosophy; removed Warfare prereq
Mining - Cost reduced to 180
Mithril Working - Cost reduced to 5000
Mysticism - Cost reduced to 180
Necromancy - Prereq to OR Knowledge of the Ether, Priesthood
Omniscience - Prereqs to be AND Strength of Will, Pass Through the Ether, Commune with Nature; Removed OR requirement
Optics - Prereq to Bronze Working, Sailing
Poisons - Cost reduced to 600
Precision - Cost reduced to 3200
Precision - Grants +2 Food to Camps
Precision - Prereq changed to Military Strategy; removed Bowyers prereq
Sailing - Cost reduced to 340
Smelting - Prereq to Bronze Working, Writing
Sorcery - Prereqs to AND Knowledge of the Ether, OR Alter/Div/Necro/Elemen
Stirrups - Renamed to 'Leather Working'
Stirrups - Cost reduced to 900
Stirrups (Leather Working) - Adds +1 Trade Routes
Stirrups (Leather Working) - Horse Archer Unit Class - Requires Stirrups, Horseback Riding, Warfare
Stirrups (Leather Working) - Prereq changed to Tracking (Woodcraft); removed Trade
Stirrups (Leather Working) - Enables Mobility II; Removed Mobility II opportunity from Recon Units
Taxation - Money Changer - Cost reduced to 200
Taxation - Prereq changed to Currency, Feudalism; removed Mathematics
Tracking - Renamed to 'Woodcraft'
Tracking - Subdue Animal Added
Tracking - Cost reduced to 350
Tracking (Woodcraft) - Prereqs to Archery, Hunting
Trade - Prereqs to AND Writing/Horseback, OR Cartography/Sailing
Trade - Set non-tradable
Warfare - Added Watermills
Warfare - Prereq changed to Archery/Education; removed Bronze Working prereq
Warfare - Cost raised to 400
Warhorses - Prereqs to Leather Working, Horseback Riding
Writing - Cost reduced to 350
Writing - Prereq changed to be an OR between Oral Tradition, Animal Husbandry


Maintenance
I will actively maintain both variants of these mods with FfH and Fall Further updates. If any other compatibility questions are raised, I will see what I can do. I expect that BasicTree will enter a maintenance cycle as soon as the kinks and input is worked out.

One caveat: I travel 50% for work, 3 weeks at a time. I'll bring the files with me when I go, but I will be unable to test my changes while on the road. So that, my friends, will be up to you when I am travelling. I'll post any betas in the following posts if that happens.

Comments
Your input is very welcome. I tried to take my own experiences and the experiences posted on this forum in any number of locations in making the design decisions I made, but I am bound to have missed some glaring balance issue somewhere (like the Shadowrider I found at the last minute with almost no non-religion pre-reqs, one tech off Feudalism.) So feedback is much appreciated. On balance, techs, new changes, pre/post reqs, or requests for compatibility.

Hope you enjoy!

I apologize for the overlap of lines on Oral Tradition - no matter where I moved it, the lines followed...

BasicTree Image

http://www.chomic.net/linkedto/TechTreeMedium.jpg

Any items on this list are welcome to discussion.

Pending Changes - Basic

Revise initial tech costs up by a factor of 20% or so - make the jump less severe
Move chopping down one tech (jungle/forest)
Change Oral Tradition graphic
Flesh out Civilopedia entries for Fiefdoms/Leather Working/etc

Cause I think I forgot a reason.

Everything looks good, but I am still testing it with some of those other mods, so if anything comes up, let me know.

I'm currently playing it with FfH BUG, Fall Further, Modular Mod, and some other modular tweaks I have built in, including some of Tarqulene's stuff. No problems so far.

Things I forgot to mention:

Modular things seem to be a tad buggy for Vista users, so you might change your mind on being semi-modular if that proves an issue for many of the people interested in using the mod.

But the main thing I wasnted to mention was that you might be able to make modules to UNDO your changes. It is an idea I have been toying with for a while since there are quite a few things I would like to do which cannot be done in a Module, but I would like to keep myself with just a single thread/package to update. You just create modules which undo your changes and leave them in a .zip file outside of the Assets folder with a readme on how to use them to "blot out" changes.


Anyway, lots of luck with this, it sounds pretty nice and I can't wait to see phase 2 :)

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I ditched my Improvements Module in favor of letting Mailbox run his. Seemed better fleshed out to me :)

Looks really interesting and well designed - nice work :goodjob:

been looking through your tech-tree, and overall it looks quite nice. Just 2 questions though:
why does medicine allow blasting powder?
where have the knights gone? this could be due to you using a fall further based tree though :)

@demus:
Hrm. Looking at the picture, I don't see them either.

They're there, they still require armored cavalry (fiefdoms) and warhorses. The icons aren't showing up, obviously, so I'll test this as soon as I boot back up into XP.

The goal is to make fiefdoms allow things like armored cavalry while providing an economic benefit. In the second phase, it will also allow mid-high tier horse unti called 'dragoons'. In both cases, the units themselves have a requirements for warhorses (or something similiar) to ensure that you don't get them too soon.

For medicine allowing blasting powder, my thinking was that the various chemicals and potions used in a high-fantasy situation could easily become explosive, and then put to 'good' use. This is mainly my attempt to reduce the needed focus on engineering, and medicine has always seemed to me to be a low-priority tech. Does it seem a stretch?

been looking through your tech-tree, and overall it looks quite nice. Just 2 questions though:
why does medicine allow blasting powder?
where have the knights gone? this could be due to you using a fall further based tree though :)

@xienwolf:
The Vista buggy modular loading thing is why I'm dual-booting - and other compatibility reasons. But I was lucky, I was building my first new rig in years when found out about modular mods. But you're right - some people don't have that option, and XP will be harder to find come July-ish. It shouldn't be hard to - I maintain my files in a non-modular format right now and port them to modular format for the release. This way it plays nice with other mods.

UNDO - hrm. Well I changed three things that can't be undone by deleting a folder... Prereqs, Tech Costs, and X/Y positions. An undo module for tech costs... or a modifier for the initial costs. I like the idea!

Modular things seem to be a tad buggy for Vista users, so you might change your mind on being semi-modular if that proves an issue for many of the people interested in using the mod.

But the main thing I wasnted to mention was that you might be able to make modules to UNDO your changes. It is an idea I have been toying with for a while since there are quite a few things I would like to do which cannot be done in a Module, but I would like to keep myself with just a single thread/package to update. You just create modules which undo your changes and leave them in a .zip file outside of the Assets folder with a readme on how to use them to "blot out" changes.

The knights are there and properly set up in my modules. However, my screenshot was taken when I was testing some third-party modules... and they tinkered with the knight and removed it.

I loaded up a game without said module, and all was good, and there were knights.

Let me know if you install it and see different, but I'll be surprised.

Well, it isn't so much undo the feature by deleting a folder, but by adding a folder back in. You basically create a module to turn your mod back to vanilla FfH, then just don't use it :) That way the option still exists for someone who doesn't do programming junk to just move a folder to where you tell them to move it and block a change you made (at least mostly).


Of course, you still run into the question about all the "invisible" tags and not knowing if they work right with Modular stuff...

Well, it isn't so much undo the feature by deleting a folder, but by adding a folder back in. You basically create a module to turn your mod back to vanilla FfH, then just don't use it :) That way the option still exists for someone who doesn't do programming junk to just move a folder to where you tell them to move it and block a change you made (at least mostly).


Of course, you still run into the question about all the "invisible" tags and not knowing if they work right with Modular stuff...

Yea... that's why I can't undo the entire thing - I don't know if it would work. But I can do the tech costs as a modular thing, and write a simple batch script to to folder copy/move operations for the main mod - I mean, I change a grand total of one file in a non-modular fashion, right now (=

Woodelf, if you're reading this, how have your experiences with modular stuff on vista been lately?

Just tried a game playing FFH 031e vanilla with your modcomp.

Everything goes fine so far, it's just that camps upgrade to villages in 1 turn as soon as they get worked by the city :confused:
Already tried checking the civ4improvementinfos.xml, but found no "improve-to-town"-tag there. Any ideas ?

Extremely odd - I came home for lunch and just pulled the files, and I see nothing. The behavior sounds like a modular loading issue - but Mailbox uses the same files modularly successfully.

I'll see if I can replicate it in a game tonight.


Just tried a game playing FFH 031e vanilla with your modcomp.

Everything goes fine so far, it's just that camps upgrade to villages in 1 turn as soon as they get worked by the city :confused:
Already tried checking the civ4improvementinfos.xml, but found no "improve-to-town"-tag there. Any ideas ?

Extremely odd - I came home for lunch and just pulled the files, and I see nothing. The behavior sounds like a modular loading issue - but Mailbox uses the same files modularly successfully.

I'll see if I can replicate it in a game tonight.

Just ran a quick WB test - my camp did not upgrade. Is my mod (Basic Tree) the only one? Are you running Vista or XP?

If Vista, this may be a modular thing I need to ferret out. Have you tried Mailbox's module by any chance?

Although I have no time for now to indulge in a good game, rest assured that I shall follow this mod's development with an utterly keen eye.

Combined with Xienwolf's ModMod, this should deliver an even more enjoyable FFH:goodjob:

I just looked over your files and for the improvements to work in a modular setting, you have to include the entire ImprovementInfos file. It's very strange but that's the only way to get it to work.

Just ran a quick WB test - my camp did not upgrade. Is my mod (Basic Tree) the only one? Are you running Vista or XP?

If Vista, this may be a modular thing I need to ferret out. Have you tried Mailbox's module by any chance?


Running Xp - never had problems with improvements behaving that way when trying Mailbox' modules or Xienwolf's.

At first, I was thinking it might have been the map or some strange error, but no matter which mapgenerator I used, it still showed "will upgrade in 0 turns" when hovering over the build-camp-option in the WB.

I got rid of that just by copy&pasting the Camp-infos from your Civ4improvementinfo.xml into the original one of ffh2 031e.

Strangely no other improvement seems to be affected either, thus I'm out of ideas...
(but as soon as I revert back to the original versions of your and ffh's improvement.xml the error comes back :confused: )


-----------------------

About balancing:
I really like your idea to add some :Food: to "hunting-buildings" like the lodge and the general streamlining of the tree
Just 2 questions:

Any reason to give money changer +1 food ?
Compared to the tax office it costs the same but is already superior b/c it gives no angry citizens AND allows you to add a merchant specialist.
Prolly the +1 :food: should have gone to the tax office instead to avoid redundancy ?


Any particular reason to give Windmills even more food (instead of hammers) with engineering ? Engineering more likely sounds like improving the :hammers: or commerce of windmills for me.

Mailbox's answer above hits the nail on the head for me - he said he needed to include the entire 'ImprovementInfos' file - essentially making it non-modular. Coupled with what I've learned from Xienwolf, that means its a field that's not behaving properly in a modular fashion, and transposing 'upgrades to town' into the camp entry in your original improvement info.

For the Money Changer... thanks! You found where the last minute change I made to the hunting lodge went! My first test run of the hunting lodge improvement showed that my food addition didn't take... I go back, and it wasn't there. I'd been modding for hours at that point, and figured I forgot to save... turns out I added the food to the Money Changer.

I upgraded the improvements and made them earlier for two reasons - first, to get people to use them, and second, to make them useful like in Civ4. Both lumbermills and watermills are production heavy. Windmills were typically used to grind grain, and the vanilla Civ4 agrees with this, so I went along the grain/food route.

I'm about to retweak those:


Switch engineering and fiefdom's benefits for lumber and windmills.
Remove lumbermill bonus production from engineering, at least

Even then... lumbermill with construction/fiefdoms, no river, is +2 hammers, +1 from forest. That's a 2/3/1 grassland, 1/4/1 plains, or 5/1 plains hill... a mine/plains hill only provides 4 until you get blasting powder. Yep... that convinced me, I'm removing the construction bonus as well. Apparently not *all* the resources needed tweaking, and it'll still have +1 commerce at fiefdoms, and the usual river bonus that mines lack.


I'll push out an update tonight hopefully. I've got some tweaking to do.

Running Xp - never had problems with improvements behaving that way when trying Mailbox' modules or Xienwolf's.

At first, I was thinking it might have been the map or some strange error, but no matter which mapgenerator I used, it still showed "will upgrade in 0 turns" when hovering over the build-camp-option in the WB.

I got rid of that just by copy&pasting the Camp-infos from your Civ4improvementinfo.xml into the original one of ffh2 031e.

Strangely no other improvement seems to be affected either, thus I'm out of ideas...
(but as soon as I revert back to the original versions of your and ffh's improvement.xml the error comes back :confused: )


-----------------------

About balancing:
I really like your idea to add some :Food: to "hunting-buildings" like the lodge and the general streamlining of the tree
Just 2 questions:

Any reason to give money changer +1 food ?
Compared to the tax office it costs the same but is already superior b/c it gives no angry citizens AND allows you to add a merchant specialist.
Prolly the +1 :food: should have gone to the tax office instead to avoid redundancy ?


Any particular reason to give Windmills even more food (instead of hammers) with engineering ? Engineering more likely sounds like improving the :hammers: or commerce of windmills for me.

Attached below are the two replacement XML documents - didn't have time for much else. Please let me know if the Improvements file fixes the mysterious upgrades - that'll let me know if it works as a 'module' even if a pointless use of a module (full file update.)

Then I can bundle it together hopefully tomorrow with more of an update.

Woodelf, if you're reading this, how have your experiences with modular stuff on vista been lately?

To my knowledge I have yet to play anything modular. I can be a guinea pig if need be at some point.

Attached below are the two replacement XML documents - didn't have time for much else. Please let me know if the Improvements file fixes the mysterious upgrades - that'll let me know if it works as a 'module' even if a pointless use of a module (full file update.)

Then I can bundle it together hopefully tomorrow with more of an update.

works fine now.:)


In case you're looking for some production heavy improvements as an alternative fpr mines, how about allowing Workshops abit more early ?
The +2 :hammers: you gave them with guilds sounds nice in a sandbox (-1/+4/0 then), but you get that bonus in the mid-to-endgame where you could also just go for Mines granting you +0/3/0 with blasting powder or even +0/4/0 with Arete.
On top of that, mines are accessible even earlier (less micromanagement) AND you can find new resources, making them almost all the time superior to workshops (and thus the only choice right if you want to go for production)

Perhaps it's just me, but I really like the way those work in Vanilla civ, so perhaps instead of granting them +2 hammers at guilds, +1 food/+1hammer would make them more considererable.
Or go a road like Mailbox tried to improve them: let a certain Civic (serfdom e.g) grant an additional bonus to Workshops, much like it is in Vanilla civ.

Just my 2 cents - I know this should be about new techtree and not about resource-balancing ;)


so good luck updating your files; kinda eager to see your changes :)

About the techtree, yes, but part of a techtree is balancing it (= I perused the buildings branch earlier today... would you believe there's only like one building that requires multiple techs?

works fine now.:)

Just my 2 cents - I know this should be about new techtree and not about resource-balancing ;)


so good luck updating your files; kinda eager to see your changes :)


I know the comment about time. Funny that my girlfriend doesn't seem to think modmodding is an effective use of time :confused:. My goal this week is to get a virtual machine up with the requisite software to continue working on this for the next three, while I'm in Chile and away from civ4, but rest assured that this will progress overall.

Although I have no time for now to indulge in a good game, rest assured that I shall follow this mod's development with an utterly keen eye.

Combined with Xienwolf's ModMod, this should deliver an even more enjoyable FFH

Version 0.51 of BasicTree is released. Details in first post.

I tweaked chopping down a tech each level and increased the cost of mining to counterbalance, but it may be too much for a small tech tree. Discussion is welcome.

This was an attempt to alleviate all forest starts, so if there are other ideas I'm open.

OF course, the other idea is make mining and crafting both 1st-level techs, AND prereq them to Bronze working, and keep forest chopping at Bronze Working.

It has two possible drawbacks - earlier access to mines (is that really a problem? It's not like a tech boost, and farms are early too) and it may annoy people who want the basic version, but it's makes much more thematic sense to me then moving chopping down.

Any comments? I can't playtest much this week for theme myself.

Version 0.51 of BasicTree is released. Details in first post.

I tweaked chopping down a tech each level and increased the cost of mining to counterbalance, but it may be too much for a small tech tree. Discussion is welcome.

This was an attempt to alleviate all forest starts, so if there are other ideas I'm open.

Fixed a file naming issue. 5 people downloaded the mod - I saw no issues with my test but it shouldn't have worked... so if there are issues, grab 0.51 again.

Version 0.51 of BasicTree is released. Details in first post.

Anyone have any comments on the change to forest chopping? I'm of a mind to implement the other option (mining as tier 1, keep costs up and forest chopping at bronze working still) in the next release.

The point is to fix all-forest starts without needing to scramble for goodie huts, but keep the theme - aka chopping at bronze working as it makes more sense. So I'm open to comments.

Would love to give better info, but I've had 5 different games (with various civs) completely lock up my computer between turn 40 and 120.

Would love to give better info, but I've had 5 different games (with various civs) completely lock up my computer between turn 40 and 120.

Really? Hmm. I had time to play clear through to mid-late game no problem before I left.

Are you running vanilla or Fall Further? Are you running .50 or .51? And are you running any other mods?

That was all with Fall Further and .51. As well as Broader Alignments modcomp (shouldnt affect it though I think).

I will attempt some games tonight on vanilla FFH2

Heres an auotsave before a lockup on turn 70 with fall further with version .51

Heres an auotsave before a lockup on turn 70 with fall further with version .51

I get back home from Chile on May 10th, so can try then.
I'll d/l broader alignments tonight (I'll need to anyhow if Vehem is integrating it in his mod) and try to look at it tomorrow. Yay for 70 hours weeks on the road...

I looked when I *should* have been going to bed.

Broader alignments adds several lines of XML to each individual technology. Fall further adds a technology. My mod modifies each technology. I incorporated Fall Further's tech into my new tech tree, but I'd guess that the BA entries are missing in whatever you're using. Since BA uses a new DLL, there is no telling what the missing XML could do (if anything.)

I can tell you that BA and BasicTree would make things not work right. My guess is BA and FF aren't currently compatible without a lot of work. Am I correct (looking at Vehem?)

I get back home from Chile on May 10th, so can try then.
I'll d/l broader alignments tonight (I'll need to anyhow if Vehem is integrating it in his mod) and try to look at it tomorrow. Yay for 70 hours weeks on the road...

Current BA & FF aren't, next release will have BA included though.

The missing fields shouldn't hurt you, as long as the schema is missing them as well. The DLL will just leave everything with the default values.

I can tell you that BA and BasicTree would make things not work right. My guess is BA and FF aren't currently compatible without a lot of work. Am I correct (looking at Vehem?)

Wasn't too much work in the end, and it's done now. Winmerge came in very handy. The next major release for Fall Further will include Broader Alignments - the DLL changes overall shouldn't interfere greatly with the tech-tree though. At worst there are a few new tags to add to the TechInfos, which again Winmerge can handle.

Wasn't too much work in the end, and it's done now. Winmerge came in very handy. The next major release for Fall Further will include Broader Alignments - the DLL changes overall shouldn't interfere greatly with the tech-tree though. At worst there are a few new tags to add to the TechInfos, which again Winmerge can handle.

Looking forwards to it when I get home. WinMerge is indeed very useful :cool:


While I can't discount that it's BasicTree without my own ability to test, my guess is that the install order of FF, BA, and BasicTree resulted in a DLL from one of the first two mods and a mix of the other files. Still, I'll look into it if I can.

tiberon02, have you tried with FF/BasicTree and no BA (for now?)

Looking forwards to it when I get home. WinMerge is indeed very useful :cool:


While I can't discount that it's BasicTree without my own ability to test, my guess is that the install order of FF, BA, and BasicTree resulted in a DLL from one of the first two mods and a mix of the other files. Still, I'll look into it if I can.

tiberon02, have you tried with FF/BasicTree and no BA (for now?)

Aye - if you have installed FF022 with any version of Broader Alignment - one of the DLL's will have overwritten the other. That alone is enough to cause trouble (though FF will *mostly* function without it's DLL I believe, though with a lot of Python exceptions...)

I'll try it out later tonight when I get a chance.

So in my (very) limited time lately on the road I've been doing some conceptual work for the expanded edition of the tree - ETree.

It came clear to me while I was looking at the layout that I would need to expand a number of areas - one of my primary considerations is maintaining game balance in the areas of the tree that are distinct, so that having a longer tree in the economic and military sections doesn't unduly strengthen a rush up the priestly branch of the tree.

So I'm chock full of ideas for what to add to the military-economic lines of the tree - and I've got techs, units to map/rustle/etc, and the plans behind them.

But I need to expand the priestly section too, and I have fewer ideas. I have some additional techs, but what I'm looking for are things that could expand the line itself. Units, buildings, wonders, (I'll even hear civics but that's a little big of a change.) Techs too if you have 'em - I want to hear your ideas.

What would you do to expand the religious line?

As per the previous post, I'm also expanding the naval area a little bit. This area is currently much more defined in my head, but I have less available unit art (and don't think I'm near as creative at making ships.) Even then, I'm interested in what you would add to the FfH naval system. Or what would you change, in timing and the technology progression?

Modelwise, I'm seeing a need for a War Dromon and War Galley (and I've drafted a Lanun UU idea - the Conquest,) at the least. The idea is to counter encroaching caravels, being more strong militarily but still be restrained to shallow water. The potential for having a 'ship tender' (giant biremes with ship berths) type of units as well has occurred to me, to allow these shore-bound ships the opportunity to be transported across seas, but I think that transports carrying transports could get a little funky.

Anyone else put thoughts into the naval arena? Or have good examples of early ship model animations? I haven't had the chance to scour the unit forums but I know I don't have any in the library I'm currently working with.

In the Priest Line you can do weaker versions of all the other lines with some spells added. Holy Warrior Type folks. The trick then would be to ensure that while they are useful, they are not in all ways better than the unit they are meant to be weaker than.

For Naval Line you could add in aquatic animals as well as Naval Ships. Still run into the Model dilemma though.

Hey man

I must say this looks like an awesome modmod. I'm quite the empire builder and would love to help you out in any way. Is there anywhere that details what you have planned exactly for the expanded tech tree?

Al

I'd like a coast restricted, high movement, noncombat, unit with double move on coasts and large cargo capacity so that using ships becomes a decent way to move troops, even if you have a land route, and would make securing your coasts much more important.

@KenKen
Precisely my thinking with some of these units.

... so that using ships becomes a decent way to move troops, even if you have a land route, and would make securing your coasts much more important.

@alzara
Right now I've got a ton of notes in various files and have been converting them into my tech tree map with more detailed notes on the planned changes. Once a get a bit more into the tech tree map I'll export a picture or two and and the summary of planned changes. I get home in a few days and will have a bit more time then - this past assignment has been horribly busy (had a 16-hour day last night) so not much has been done.

You are welcome to help anywhere you choose, but at this point the most useful thing you can do is provide input, ideas and feedback. Everyone has different playstyles and I want to make sure I cover multiple styles to keep it all balanced. I'll provide more info so you can help out with that. Plus, as I come up with more questions and design decisions input is extremely helpful (=. As I develop my list of changes - there will be other opportunities to help as well.

Hey man

I must say this looks like an awesome modmod. I'm quite the empire builder and would love to help you out in any way. Is there anywhere that details what you have planned exactly for the expanded tech tree?

Al

@xienwolf
Hmmm interesting idea on the priest line. Temple guards indeed, though I'm afraid I'll be using the papal pikemen somewhere else.

For the naval line, I'm not sure the aquatic animals would fit in thematically in many cases (although elves on dolphin mounts could reduce the AIs interminable scouting with work boats...) The little stuff, such as riding seals, otters, dolphins, and such, doesn't have a huge game niche. The bigger stuff I don't see civilizations like the bannor, amurites, or calabim using. But it is an idea. Im not as concerned about sea animal models, though - much fewer detailed surfaces than ships, and not as uniform.

Hmm. Would aquatic animal-mounted scouts be a good benefit from exploration or animal husbandry? With a little more advanced code you could even build a unit that converts (one way) from scout to warrior (to simulate abandoning the mounts and going on land.)

In the Priest Line ...

For Naval Line you could add in aquatic animals as well as Naval Ships. Still run into the Model dilemma though.

Cool :)

I'll wait until I've seen ur ideas for the expanded tech tree. I have yet to properly test the basic one so I'll give that a go for now :)

Al

I would think [animal mounts] could be nice as an addition to Exploration. Since that is (IIRC) on the way to Sailing anyway. Give you a nice chance to 1 shot a unit across the water to explore a new continent well before you can afford a ship and settler to go settle it. Or to run up the coast a ways past your neighbors, then ditch the mount and look around.

That would be cool... might detract a little from the clan's ability to mount wolves...

Al

Funny, when you play musical chairs with your SATA port connectors, your XP install tends to act all flaky and stop working.

Asides from that, I've had a heck of a week. Hopefully I get some updates on here soon.

(I don't think I've ever used heck before, but I'm unwilling to go look up the forum rules.)

Hehe cool take ur time :)

I'm patient :D

Al