I think we now have enough information for a master settlement plan.
Here is my initial proposal to start the discussion.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1924/civ4screenshot0011kf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In my opinion the two copper sites are prime locations due to the multiple different resources found at each, and we should consider stretching our reach to grab them while the grabbing is good. While it's true the western site would face cultural pressure from Spain, I think it wouldn't be in any imminent danger of flipping. If they're the target of a future war, depriving them of copper would potentially deprive them of spearmen to counter our horse archers. The northern site, having elephants and gold, would give us two luxuries to raise the :) cap on our cities, in addition to the copper for better weapons.

First out, excellent sites DS, but I think we need to build closer to Arete.

For the Faith city, I would recommend the Dye-port, as the river will connect resources right away with Sailing, and it will be a reliable commercial powerhouse.

For depriving Spain of copper, we may intend to do that with a horsed archer pillaging strategy,.

For the Warlords city, I would prefer to stay close to our own city, not too far away, guarding those mountains, the northern site north of those pigs would provide an immediate food boost for sudden growth.

The northern site you've suggested, Provo, would indeed be a good production center, with the river (= farms) and rice to feed your workers in the hills.

As for our site, I am undecided. Yes, the dye port would be a great commercial city, but the production power is low. How are we to build our religious monuments with little to no production?

Thanks for the comment on the northern city AK. I think "borrowing" the pig pasture for a bit to boost the city to a certain size will benefit us more, as we then can cover more hills with producing military units, barracks, stable etc, potentially a wall too. If we deforest the tile east of it, we can cover the pass NW with a hit and run over that isolated plain, and towards the rice paddies. Excellent defensive positions, as well as prohibiting Babylonian cities settling south of the desert, which is the main strategic move here. One of those hills may have iron in it too, I hope. Above all, with sailing and a couple of roads, we benefit from the same resources Arete benefits from, plus we can reinforce easily in all directions with both cavalry and infantry.


There are several forests around, make sure we get math and sailing, math for 50 % chop bonuses, and sailing for Moai Statues. Moai Statues would be very beneficial to a religious city, with Great People (Great Prophets, utilizing Philosophical Trait) and a hammer per ocean tile. Then we get calendar, and the city bursts with gold. Currency is near then as well.

Also, you got cows and hills there, so there is some good hammers if you add Moai Statues with it. Two hills, Cow and 2-3 forests makes for a good production anyways.


I think we should discuss the Math, Sailing, Calendar and Iron Working potential for an integrated city system, using sailing along coast and river to save turns building roads etc to interconnect empire. I can very well see Moai Statues in a Dye Port City and Great Lighthouse in Arete. Philosophical is a Great People trait, so we need some relevant wonders.

For Arete, I think we should build a warrior, then a new settler, so the Warlord City can be built right away, not wasting more time.

Nothing says Fractal like 5 dyes in a row.

What's the purpose of the left city in the second row? It doesn't appear to have any unique resources. Our scouts will probably find better spaces than that shortly. If we just need to keep our empire connected through that space, I'd rather move it one square southeast and have it replace the cow/silk city.

I think that city makes sense from a logistical point of view. River connects you see,we just need Sailing early, not late.

We also need Archery for defense and Horseman Archers.

What's the purpose of the left city in the second row?
It would be one of the last I'd place, after the point where maintenance is no longer a problem, and the purpose would be to maximize tile utilization.

First out, excellent sites DS, but I think we need to build closer to Arete.

The closer sites don't have the best resources. I'd feel a lot more comfortable if we got them ourselves than I would with letting the others get them and then trying to take them away.

For the Faith city ...

For the Warlords city ...
Here we discuss what is best for gameplay. It does turn out that the dyes city is logical for the Faith in a way, though I agree that the question of how to get adequate production needs to be answered. However it is extremely foolish to carry through with building the Faith city first and thereby forgoing the much more important military resources which make sense for the Warlords city. If we go with your suggestion, those may be the only two cities we get to build.

I think you are being overtly pessimistic on our behalf, but then again, that is your job :D

That Faith City will also be a temporal support point for near infantry support (archers etc) of a Spanish War, so we dont need to drag troops from allover the place for many many turns, but to get a quick victory with an integrated road and river trade system. Sailing ties in with this.

This is not an extremely foolish strategy. As I see it, it is extremely foolish to have a lone warrior guard a disconnected city far into the interior, and thus limit our warfighting potential.

Also, the Warlords City will grow very fast by building at the northern city, courtesy borrowed pig farm and later on paddies. Sailing will connect dye city instantly.
With Cows, Hills and forests as well as some grasslands, its still a good city, well ahead of connecting dyes, so the city got plenty to do before Calendar and later Iron Working is researched.

Since we need Archery anyways for horseman archers, and we need an instant road to build horseman archers from Arete (and build barracks and stable as well as defensive archers),, our military strategy would be of an early war with an expert cavalry charge backed up by archers from a nearby city (Faith, if they are willing). Copper we may get when Spanish are out of business from that southern spot. I am not wasting our men in some deep probe Apocalypsis Now scenario. The three added techs we found gave us an advantage, lets leverage that one.

In simply gameplay mode I view the two cities we need are the copper-cow fish city and the northern gold-ivory-copper-rice city. The first one in partricular is libel be be taken soon, So I would settle that location first. It will be a good city for great people, production and solid in commerece. I think this location makes good sense for the church. I would take the northern city next. I am noit to worried about barbs. One warrior-archer in the city and one horse archer to hit them as they come would make it safe. We have two other civs on our continent so there wandering units will reduce barbs extensively. We could then back fill or take madrid if neccesary.

The closer cities do not offer much at this point in my opionion. Dye port eventual will be very strong, but not now.

In the end these cities are in the hands of the fatih and the warlords. So I will defer to them.

copper-cow fish city and the northern gold-ivory-copper-rice city

THe northern city is worth alot more than the western, and thats why i would go for that city first. We have fish, and there are other locations for cows so we don't get anything new except for the copper.

I agree with Joe. Gaining Copper and Ivory coupled withour horse will give us the early military trifecta. Then we can easily take the western city if it is founded before we get there with our third settler. Thogh I think Spain will settle more south west and still give us our dye city regardless.

In simply gameplay mode I view the two cities we need are the copper-cow fish city and the northern gold-ivory-copper-rice city. The first one in partricular is libel be be taken soon, So I would settle that location first. It will be a good city for great people, production and solid in commerece. I think this location makes good sense for the church. I would take the northern city next. I am noit to worried about barbs. One warrior-archer in the city and one horse archer to hit them as they come would make it safe. We have two other civs on our continent so there wandering units will reduce barbs extensively. We could then back fill or take madrid if neccesary.

The closer cities do not offer much at this point in my opionion. Dye port eventual will be very strong, but not now.

In the end these cities are in the hands of the fatih and the warlords. So I will defer to them.

I agree with everything written in the above quote.

The northern city is worth alot more than the western, and thats why i would go for that city first. We have fish, and there are other locations for cows so we don't get anything new except for the copper.

To clarify, if we take the southern of the two great city locations mentioned in my first quote, then we cut Spain off and can launch a war from here later, making the war potentially much quicker and more easily managed. The North city should be next in my opinion. All of the other city sites, with the exception of the one that Provo points out as a defensive location are "filler". Provo's defensive city should be our third city IMHO.

As this is a gameplay perspective.

However, from another point of view, if I were the Protectors of Faith, I would be salivating over the southern city, as it would become a beacon for our faith. We would know how much support we have from the Gods and more quickly learn of our strength of faith in the Gods. Also, this sight has awesome future potential in terms of wonder building, etc...

If I were the Warlord City, I'd still want the hill city for all of the reasons that Provo Stated, and also because the city on "paradise hills" near gold and ivory is too far to support our war effort in the South.

Initially I thought I would go for the Dye port, however, I have since changed my mind. Hear me out, and I think this makes sense gameplay-wise and roleplay-wise:

Gameplay: The northern gold-copper-rice site is a very good site that has good commerce potential and production potential. As well as getting us Bronze, it will also allow us to increase our happy cap greatly with the gold AND ivory. Finally, we claim Bronze with this city, freeing us form having to scramble for the Bronze south of Spain. We can then settle the Dye port and a city further south (they would share only the cow tile) near the Bronze later. The only downside to this location is it's distance from Spain :(

Roleplay: The Dye port is tempting, but we don't know what to do with the Dyes yet (now that I think about it, wtf does having a Calendar have to do with dying things?). Plus, I think that gold is much more attractive for a religious city. Gold is used to make idols, monuments, etc.

Two questions:

Logistics?

Defense?

Logistics?

Defense?
The northern site may be further away from Hatty, but honestly, I don't expect the war with Hatty to be terribly difficult. In fact, Bronze may come in very handy for us (Spearman > War Chariot) which we would not get with the Dye port. That being said, yes, for the Spanish war, the northern city has less logistical and defensive value. However, it may be inevitable that we war against Lincoln as well, and I would hate to see him gobble up this good site early on, when we won't be able to dislodge him.

AK, Axemen from Bronze, provide great protection for Horse Archers from Chariots, but you are also right about Spearmen, and I actually like that the Religious faction is considering said location near the gold and ivory. We named it "Paradise Hills" in the warband discussion did we not? I see a great story here, concerning said location as a possible gateway to salvation, etc... I for one, actually support this line of thinking. The gods have smiled on us so much already with 3 technologies from the local villagers, why not support them further with this awesome demonstration of faith?

I for one, believe that Hatty will rush for a city closer to her borders before jumping for the southern city site with copper and fish, let alone a jump for the die, the AI doesn't like Jungles if something else is nearby.

Two questions:

Logistics?

Defense?

Turik, an old and weathered man came out of the forests and jungles to the west, unknown to anyone, and ignoring everyone. He simply grabbed a stick, and pointed at Diamondeye, AluminumKnight, and Stryder...he simply pointed and gestured for them to follow him. He lead them without answering any questions, to the shore of Arete. The small party arrived in time for the maritime fog to clear and the sun to shine down on the beach. With his stick he carved these words into the mud, the first recorded words of Aretan "Where there is a will, there is a way. Faith is the way."

And when he was done, the old man knelt there in the mud kissed his hand, held it to his heart, peared up at the sky, then got up and put a hand on AluminumKnight's shoulder.
In the voice of a wise grandfather, he said to AluminumKnight, "You have heard and seen all that you need to know and have demonstrated that knowledge already, even if you should not understand yet where it has come from. I leave you now, but I will return one day to see what your people have wrought. You will have these words, and you will have your heart to govern what to do with them."
And with that, he simply left, stroaling easily in a way that made him appear to be far younger than he looked and vanished into the jungle again.

:b: on the plan for what we currently know.

But at some point, probably very soon, we need to fog-bust those sea tiles to see if there are any sea resources hiding in them.

We do not want to found a city and then see that there is a sea resource that can't be used by any city. The food is much too valuable to waste.

I would also add to it an infill city 1-2-2-2 our capital (after all boundary marking cities founded, so probably around 1000 AD). (It will easily pay for itself in commerce.) Now if one of the 4 fog sea tiles it would work contain a resource, it would need moved up.

The northern site may be further away from Hatty, but honestly, I don't expect the war with Hatty to be terribly difficult. In fact, Bronze may come in very handy for us (Spearman > War Chariot) which we would not get with the Dye port. That being said, yes, for the Spanish war, the northern city has less logistical and defensive value. However, it may be inevitable that we war against Lincoln as well, and I would hate to see him gobble up this good site early on, when we won't be able to dislodge him.

First of all, I totally respect your faction and you as an excellent leader. That being said, its not a safe assumption that the war with the spanish will be easy. As our second city, and probably second biggest city at the expected time of the rush. We are going to need you. This wars spoil will pave your churchs and faith.

Also that site is 7 tiles away. My worker crews would not be able to road that very soon and you would have limited initial military support. It would be 7 turns away from help at the begining. Much to late to quelch an uprising or a siege. I agree that site is lucrative. But at turn 40 with a warrior i think it would be a death wish.

Agian the choice is yours.

If we have a couple of horse archers, they can get to the city in half the time.

If we deprive hatty of stratigic resources, we can make sure that she is easy to take out.

We need to make sure that Hatty does not get to utilize that copper near her. We can do this either by building a city there, or by pillaging and stealing workers.

It is at best wishful thinking.

City is to be built now. The two horseman archers first require us to delay the build of 3rd settler, which is not acceptable to Warlord Faction. This should also ideally require us to build barracks and stable, as well as researching archery etc, IN ADDITION to dedicate worker and most likely escort with the worker for that ride. The window for the Spanish War will be closed well before we would have the needed momentum to do it.

I am happy that there is broad support for the Warlord location (North of Arete) utilizing pigs jointly with Arete, but I am sorry I cannot support the distant city inland. Also, the only military escort we got, the Warband, is only equipped as a mutual support healing unit, not to handle more escort duty in an area much likely to be infected with barbarian warriors, archers, axemen and spearmen, soon even barbarian swordsmen too.

Babylonia is a threat much later.

There is a rice paddock up there, but we dont need it as we got one near warlords. Gold and Elephants are nice, but not worth the risk, as we cannot build War Elephants in a long while, and all those dyes begs to be utilized.

More so, it would take ages to connect the distant city, even then, logistics would be at risk

Sorry Blastoid, I do not support a distant fire-brigade with future horseman archers as an extra luxury, if we are serious about dealing with the Spanish asap.

The way we are to build the military, I would do that properly, with the right building, and able to project power from a defined region, and to have consistent borders and adapt to most situations with ease.

As a 2nd city, the far distant city is one of the more unwise locations I would ever consider suggested.

Also think about the increased cost of maintenance. It will bog down our research significantly. I understand that this site is lucrative. But it just is really a liabilty at this stage of the game.

The logic is used that we should make sure they don't get copper. Well we could diffently perform a premptive strike on a reach for copper. Either way if we choose to settle to block them from the copper there is another source and i know warlords will not go after the other. I think researching archery and building our 3 cities up quick with a strong military will leave us in good shape for that strike. perhaps our 4th or 5th city we will settle paradise hills as they are a good choice

Protectors I suggest you guys at least think about our suggestions as you require us to make your plan succeed.

But agian coming from the man who controls our worker corps and capitals production, we are not ready for a city that far off. And talking to the faction that controls our military, they can not defend you properly either.

Im not soley advocating the dye port, I am just saying consider a place other then paradise hills.

I truly do appreciate your opinions, and I am now reconsidering after hearing your points. This is a difficult decision to make. Here's something that occured to me: One thing to remember is that we MUST research Archery in order to build Horse Archers, so the Protectors city can build it's own protection (a warrior or 2 and an archer are surely enough protection from the barbs), especially since there are no religious buildings or anything to build. We could also build our own worker, freeing up Arete and Warlords city to concentrate on the war effort.

Provo, I know you're in love with the Dyes, but the truth is, we are not getting Calendar soon, so they will be sitting there useless for awhile. Yes, the city can be productive without the Dyes, but I feel like we are wasting time settling a site we could settle/conquer later on when it is capable of fulfilling it's full potential. That being said, if there truly is no support for building a city further away, I may have to consider this site.

The southern Bronze site could be a possibility, as even though it's, again, further away, it's relatively safe from barbs with Hatty there, and we should have plenty of military around once we invade her. She could still sneak some units (especially War Chariots) around us as we are moving in to her cities, though.

Finally, let me say again that I appreciate all of the input, and it will be taken into consideration.

I realize where your coming from, but war affects us all. We are going to need all of our citizens involved. We need your cities help just as much as the other cities. We are going to need your cities help too.

Yes, a strategy affects all of us, not just the faction destined to "own" the city. And short term difficulties should not supercede the long-term potential.

If the Protectors settle on the plains hill 1NE of the Rice, then work the plains hill copper, they should have two warriors in no time. They could then switch to the rice, get to size two, then build a worker, mine the copper, farm the rice, mine the gold, etc...all the while building an archer or whatever else. While we would love to build a road to them, it wouldn't be immediately necessary, until after we had finished building a pasture on the horse and roading that up, and perhaps we should build another warrior then another worker now then a settler.

We could always use War Elephants to take Hatty out...or the Warlords could build their city now, and let the Protectors build on Paradise hills later.

If immediate war with Hatty is such a priority then let's build a Warlords town now...and by the talk I'm hearing that must clearly be the hills north of Arete?

I generally like having at least three cities prior to rushing anyone with anything, and those had better be good production rich cities, not cities that relie on too much improving time and national wonders, etc...to reach a decent yield.

Ditto what kwarriorpoet said.

The northern copper site isn't ideal - it is too far from our capital - but this is such a resource-rich site that we'd be foolish not grab it. It'd be silly not to road enough to connect this city to the capital, BTW; two precalendar happiness resources aren't easy to come by, and if we want to grow our civ, we need all the happiness we can get.

Just because we aren't planning`to settle it first off. The plan is to take it sooner when we have more resources to protect it and help it flourish. while your correct it isn't good to waste resources and happy points. We are going to be limited by development and population to how much food we need immidetaly. What we do need is a city that is close by to help with our war effort. Taking the spanish will give a religion, army, security, and resources to our nation. Plus already built citys with religion.

The longer we wait to take the spanish, the harder it will get.

Actually, the Paradise Hills is a very "selfish" location, in the sense that no resources coming out of there would benefit the other cities for a long while. That site is not likely to create synergies, with warriors, archer, worker, resources to develop etc etc. It will take a long time before the city is self sufficient and even longer before it can benefit the entire empire.

That city location makes the entire Calendar strategy moot, as we got no incentive to research calendar if we cannot utilize those resources to the maximum.

Warlords city is a more "selfless" project, for example, as it places itself close to the core, and dedicates itself to military production only (plus some culture to defend pass).

A good core city, of the first three, would be to create synergies for the other cities, not create three separate pioneer communities.

Meh, i would've liked some more terrain discovered around that rice. When u see in the Turnsession 3 screenshots, when the settler is selected, one of Sid's Tips is just below the rice. Maybe there's another resource when we settle there.

However, that place suits the Warlord Faction more than the Protectors of Faith.
So Warband leader, could u go south to see what's there perhaps? :)

Maybe it'd be better indeed to first build the warlords city, but it has been agreed upon that the Faith city was gonna be the second, and i don't like deal breakers, besides, i want the optimal location for the warlords city and therefor, as stated above, the terrain close to the rice needs to be unveiled first.

EDIT: PS: sorry i was away for 4 days without prior notice, but i think nobody missed me in this period ;)

Yeah, we intend to stick to the deal, and rest assured, NZL, that scout is heading southwards for the rice paddy you talked about. Nevertheless, having the early pig farm from Arete up, saves us a lot of hassle in getting the city up to wanted size.

I don't appreciate the condescending tone, Provo. Please try to keep this civil.
Actually, the Paradise Hills is a very "selfish" location, in the sense that no resources coming out of there would benefit the other cities for a long while. That site is not likely to create synergies, with warriors, archer, worker, resources to develop etc etc. It will take a long time before the city is self sufficient and even longer before it can benefit the entire empire.
This makes no sense. How are the resources coming out of Paradise Hills NOT going to benefit the empire for a long while?? The resources at the Dye site will take longer to hook up and get benefits from! Also, "that site is not likely to create synergies." I'm not even sure what that means. We will build a few defenders first along with a worker, and the city will be more than self sufficient, whereas the dye port will have significantly less production potential as well as not getting us any resources except for cow until Calendar.

That city location makes the entire Calendar strategy moot, as we got no incentive to research calendar if we cannot utilize those resources to the maximum.
Right. We don't HAVE to research Calendar. This SAVES us unnecessary research, as we can move our happy cap up without it. This frees us up for CoL for courthouses, or whatever we decide on.

Warlords city is a more "selfless" project, for example, as it places itself close to the core, and dedicates itself to military production only (plus some culture to defend pass).
Duh. You're the Warlords city, you make military. The Protectors city is more than willing to help build military for the war, by the way.

A good core city, of the first three, would be to create synergies for the other cities, not create three separate pioneer communities.
Disagree. Our first cities should be our best cities, and we can fill in from there. I think that makes more sense rather than settling inferior cities first and letting the AI grab the good spots.

Well, it seems you made up your mind, and we understand that, and will not contest that choice from now on. However, there are certain provisions we would like to have in place as part of this settlement process.

I respect the choice, but I do not like it, to be honest. This future war would now be run by the core cities, due to logistical reasons. I wish for the new city the best, and would like to have one provision in place, that we create a new warrior escort for the settler, as we want to have the original Warband near the core of our nation and near Spain, as it is a promoted mobile reinforcement unit, not a garrison unit. This means, we do not want it dislocated from where it is supposed to be used, and should thus stay in Arete, as we see it.

Do not fear for the Warband. Our first build will be a defensive unit, and then the Warband is free to go to the front lines. It is too valuable of a unit to sit there guarding a city far away.

Very well then, and I also support "Mysticism" after "Archery", just to let that be known, as I know that Faith would like that technology for several reasons. That being said, I hope Faith now will recognize the Warlords sentiment of getting "Iron Working", now that it seems the Confucian Gambit is not an option anymore? We honestly would like a swordsman, city raider unit to open up a few of the city charges, as well as getting a location with iron well placed within city boundaries.

Looks like we're pretty much on target for this plan. The only current hitch is possibly needing to raze and resettle the Spanish city near dye port. They probably settled where they did because the bananas are included there, but their plan misses out on the awesome power of all that commerce in the same city from getting all the dyes. Our plan would just leave a hole where the Spanish city is, or put another further west.

We do still need to know what lies east of the clams. Unlikely as it might seem, another civ could conceivably be there and just hasn't randomly walked in our direction.

Arkadia is to be founded 5W1N from Arete. Putting this here just in case that fact was missed elsewhere.