Hey, I recently decided to jump from warlord difficulty to Noble Difficulty, But I'm having some problems:

(Before I start, I play on Pangea with standard map size & random AIs, Since selecting AIs with certain traits in my favor feels like cheating )

- The AIs Always end up having more Cities then me - I build my first settler at City Size 4, But it seems the AI keeps expanding TOWARDS me.

- I'm trying to do a Praetorian rush, And I'm having a few problems & questions.

1: What techs are needed to Execute a rush properly before your praetorians become outdated?

2: How many cities should I have

3: Wonders or no wonders?

4: How many Praets Should I have before I consider rushing my opponent

5: Catapults, or not catapults ?

6: Does game speed affect unit production & Movement

7: Is it absolutely needed to play on a game speed slower than normal to pull this off correctly?

Responses are appreciated! :goodjob:

Assuming BtS: If you're not using Slavery and chopping down your Forests, the AI is likely building their Settlers more quickly than you.

1) Iron Working.

2) That's in some sense map-dependent.

3) Wonders are a distraction unless you're industrious when going for early war.

4) Enough to overwhelm his defenses. Open Borders when preparing for war can be useful for scouting out the enemy.

5) Praetorians are enough without catapults if you get them on line early enough.

6) I'm not sure about unit production, but technologies take longer to research, which gives a longer lifespan to your units, if you play on Epic/Marathon.

7) No, I've done the Praetorian rush on Normal speed. In fact, I can't stand Epic/Marathon; they're too lethargic.

Assuming BtS: If you're not using Slavery and chopping down your Forests, the AI is likely building their Settlers more quickly than you.

1) Iron Working.

2) That's in some sense map-dependent.

3) Wonders are a distraction unless you're industrious when going for early war.

4) Enough to overwhelm his defenses. Open Borders when preparing for war can be useful for scouting out the enemy.

5) Praetorians are enough without catapults if you get them on line early enough.

6) I'm not sure about unit production, but technologies take longer to research, which gives a longer lifespan to your units, if you play on Epic/Marathon.

7) No, I've done the Praetorian rush on Normal speed. In fact, I can't stand Epic/Marathon; they're too lethargic.

Thanks for the response:goodjob:

How many / What City size should I build my settlers?


7: Nice to see someone who feels the same I do! :goodjob:

;6710922']Hey, I recently decided to jump from warlord difficulty to Noble Difficulty, But I'm having some problems:

(Before I start, I play on Pangea with standard map size & random AIs, Since selecting AIs with certain traits in my favor feels like cheating )

- The AIs Always end up having more Cities then me - I build my first settler at City Size 4, But it seems the AI keeps expanding TOWARDS me.
Are you whipping your city before that settler? Are you chopping any forests to help speed up the build?

I generally decide how quickly I want my first settler out based on how close the AI is to me, and who they are. If I have a known city-spammer like Hammi or Sury, I will try and get that settler out FAST. If its a slower expander, I will grow my cap some first. But I almost always put at least 1 chopped forest into that first settler, and generally whip 1 pop to finish it off.

- I'm trying to do a Praetorian rush, And I'm having a few problems & questions.

1: What techs are needed to Execute a rush properly before your praetorians become outdated?
2: How many cities should I have
3: Wonders or no wonders?
4: How many Praets Should I have before I consider rushing my opponent
5: Catapults, or not catapults ?
6: Does game speed affect unit production & Movement
7: Is it absolutely needed to play on a game speed slower than normal to pull this off correctly?
1 & 2. Obviously early IW is critical. Its a good idea to get a couple cities up, and even barracks if you can. You are likely to need a city near your source of Iron, and its not likely to be your 2nd. If you wait til IW to get a 2nd city, you may lose prime spots. However, losing spots isnt THAT critical, remember, you plan to take those spots yourself once you get Praets. So dont over-expand, but dont over-delay either.

3. At Noble, you can usually get at least 1 early strong wonder, either the GW, Oracle, or Pyramids, with a bit of chopping forests for extra production if needed. If you are playing the IND Rome leader (Agustus, this months LHC leader, BTW, no Praet rushing in those though, heh), I suggest at least the Oracle into MC for cheap forges. Other than that, its kind of situational. If you have stone, maybe the GW, especially for the spy points. Praets can really pound citys that you send into Revolt first.

4. Tough call. Play bunches of "half games" where you test different numbers and different styles. Try attacking hilled cities, cities with walls, etc etc. Practice makes perfect. No need to finish every single game, practice with every intention of quitting the game after your "rush" is over. You can usually play that much in an hour or so, then re-start a new game and do it again.

5. With Praets, I like to use spys, but I am a big GW fan on packed maps for the Spy points. Of course you can wait for cats, but then its not really a "rush" is it. Even spy-usage isnt really a "rush". Again, practice will tell you where you need to focus your timing adjustments.

6 & 7. Game speed is a factor. Epic and Marathon are easier to wage war with because units dont get obsoleted as quickly. Movement is the same number of turns, but the years go by faster on faster speeds, so you may see Archers when you send em, and LBs by the time you get there. I play Epic, I think it has the best "feel", Normal just blows by too quickly, and Marathon is like molasses in winter. But yes, you CAN rush on any speed. Faster speeds just require a more precise technique to execute properly. And once more, the stock suggestion, practice, try different speeds, find a comfort zone.

I suggest you look into the Nobles Club games, where a number of players around your level play a common game and post their questions and report their results and decisions, in an effort to learn to execute in a more efficient manner. Try the Ramesses game, it has an early UU and a rushable opponent. So does the Elizabeth game, but the English UU comes much later, so you rush with plain old Axemen. Even if you read through some of the results and reports, then try to play yourself with a bit of foreknowledge, you still have to get the "hang" of proper execution. Once you learn to streamline your decision making and focus your plan better, you will "get it", and suddenly find Noble quite easy, at least thats what happens to a lot of players. Not EVERY game, mind you, but some games will just begin to click, and have all the pieces start falling into place.

Play and read, play and read some more. Thats how you get better. Try stuff. If it doesnt work out, so what, as long as you can see what went wrong and how to adjust your overall plan in future games, your play WILL improve.

Are you whipping your city before that settler? Are you chopping any forests to help speed up the build?

I generally decide how quickly I want my first settler out based on how close the AI is to me, and who they are. If I have a known city-spammer like Hammi or Sury, I will try and get that settler out FAST. If its a slower expander, I will grow my cap some first. But I almost always put at least 1 chopped forest into that first settler, and generally whip 1 pop to finish it off.


1 & 2. Obviously early IW is critical. Its a good idea to get a couple cities up, and even barracks if you can. You are likely to need a city near your source of Iron, and its not likely to be your 2nd. If you wait til IW to get a 2nd city, you may lose prime spots. However, losing spots isnt THAT critical, remember, you plan to take those spots yourself once you get Praets. So dont over-expand, but dont over-delay either.

3. At Noble, you can usually get at least 1 early strong wonder, either the GW, Oracle, or Pyramids, with a bit of chopping forests for extra production if needed. If you are playing the IND Rome leader (Agustus, this months LHC leader, BTW, no Praet rushing in those though, heh), I suggest at least the Oracle into MC for cheap forges. Other than that, its kind of situational. If you have stone, maybe the GW, especially for the spy points. Praets can really pound citys that you send into Revolt first.

4. Tough call. Play bunches of "half games" where you test different numbers and different styles. Try attacking hilled cities, cities with walls, etc etc. Practice makes perfect. No need to finish every single game, practice with every intention of quitting the game after your "rush" is over. You can usually play that much in an hour or so, then re-start a new game and do it again.

5. With Praets, I like to use spys, but I am a big GW fan on packed maps for the Spy points. Of course you can wait for cats, but then its not really a "rush" is it. Even spy-usage isnt really a "rush". Again, practice will tell you where you need to focus your timing adjustments.

6 & 7. Game speed is a factor. Epic and Marathon are easier to wage war with because units dont get obsoleted as quickly. Movement is the same number of turns, but the years go by faster on faster speeds, so you may see Archers when you send em, and LBs by the time you get there. I play Epic, I think it has the best "feel", Normal just blows by too quickly, and Marathon is like molasses in winter. But yes, you CAN rush on any speed. Faster speeds just require a more precise technique to execute properly. And once more, the stock suggestion, practice, try different speeds, find a comfort zone.

I suggest you look into the Nobles Club games, where a number of players around your level play a common game and post their questions and report their results and decisions, in an effort to learn to execute in a more efficient manner. Try the Ramesses game, it has an early UU and a rushable opponent. So does the Elizabeth game, but the English UU comes much later, so you rush with plain old Axemen. Even if you read through some of the results and reports, then try to play yourself with a bit of foreknowledge, you still have to get the "hang" of proper execution. Once you learn to streamline your decision making and focus your plan better, you will "get it", and suddenly find Noble quite easy, at least thats what happens to a lot of players. Not EVERY game, mind you, but some games will just begin to click, and have all the pieces start falling into place.

Play and read, play and read some more. Thats how you get better. Try stuff. If it doesnt work out, so what, as long as you can see what went wrong and how to adjust your overall plan in future games, your play WILL improve.


Wow, thanks alot for spending the time to write all that! :goodjob:

But how do you conduct an axe rush? By the time you get axemen up, won't your opponent already have the same?

In no.5, What exactly is GW & Cats?



If you don't mind me asking you a question, Which AI is the toughest to go against when Warmongering?


I'l look into the Nobles club too :goodjob:

The only wonders you might want for a praetorian rush are oracle (for courthouses) and much less importantly stonehenge. The hell with great wall or pyramids. Ordinarily, as long as you expand towards your opponents as well, you'll be fine citywise. With praetorians, you shouldn't care at all if your opponents expand towards you, you'll just take them all anyway.

You can just overpower your opponents with praetorians until they have crossbows or macemen.

;6710922']Hey, I recently decided to jump from warlord difficulty to Noble Difficulty, But I'm having some problems:

(Before I start, I play on Pangea with standard map size & random AIs, Since selecting AIs with certain traits in my favor feels like cheating )

- The AIs Always end up having more Cities then me - I build my first settler at City Size 4, But it seems the AI keeps expanding TOWARDS me.

- I'm trying to do a Praetorian rush, And I'm having a few problems & questions.

1: What techs are needed to Execute a rush properly before your praetorians become outdated?

2: How many cities should I have

3: Wonders or no wonders?

4: How many Praets Should I have before I consider rushing my opponent

5: Catapults, or not catapults ?

6: Does game speed affect unit production & Movement

7: Is it absolutely needed to play on a game speed slower than normal to pull this off correctly?

Responses are appreciated! :goodjob:
1. Romans start with Mining. From there you need BW-->IW. I would also want to improve whatever local food i have so Ag or Animal Lovin. you'll also probably want roads before iron.
2. I usually end up having 3 when I praet rush; a capital, #2 is a nearby production powerhouse and #3 to claim Iron.

3. The Oracle.

4. It depends on how fast you can get your iron hooked up. usually 2 per defender is enough if they're flatland cities with <40% cultural defense. Make it 3 per defender if they're on a hill.

5. I wouldn't worry about cat until you're ready to take your second or perhaps third civ.

6. First off, I'm a huge advocate of marathon, and if I could slow it down further, I would. To say that gamespeed doesn't affect movement is misleading. Praets have a movement speed of one tile per turn whatever the gamespeed may be. that means that if it takes ten turns for your stack to get to your target on normal the enemy will have produced 3x the defenders/cultural defense/beakers towards a more powerful tech than it would on marathon.

7. It absolutely isn't needed. But it make it easier.

1. Romans start with Mining. From there you need BW-->IW. I would also want to improve whatever local food i have so Ag or Animal Lovin. you'll also probably want roads before iron.
2. I usually end up having 3 when I praet rush; a capital, #2 is a nearby production powerhouse and #3 to claim Iron.

3. The Oracle.

4. It depends on how fast you can get your iron hooked up. usually 2 per defender is enough if they're flatland cities with <40% cultural defense. Make it 3 per defender if they're on a hill.

5. I wouldn't worry about cat until you're ready to take your second or perhaps third civ.

6. First off, I'm a huge advocate of marathon, and if I could slow it down further, I would. To say that gamespeed doesn't affect movement is misleading. Praets have a movement speed of one tile per turn whatever the gamespeed may be. that means that if it takes ten turns for your stack to get to your target on normal the enemy will have produced 3x the defenders/cultural defense/beakers towards a more powerful tech than it would on marathon.

7. It absolutely isn't needed. But it make it easier.

Thanks. I was going for the oracle then getting Metal casting so I could build forges Before rushing :king:

The only wonders you might want for a praetorian rush are oracle (for courthouses) and much less importantly stonehenge. The hell with great wall or pyramids. Ordinarily, as long as you expand towards your opponents as well, you'll be fine citywise. With praetorians, you shouldn't care at all if your opponents expand towards you, you'll just take them all anyway.

You can just overpower your opponents with praetorians until they have crossbows or macemen.

Aight, forgot about them

;6711017']Wow, thanks alot for spending the time to write all that! :goodjob:

But how do you conduct an axe rush? By the time you get axemen up, won't your opponent already have the same?

You have to be pretty fast if you want to play an axe rush. Build a worker, so you can improve your environment. Research mining and bronze working as fast as possible. Use the possibility to chop down forests and whip out units.

You need normally one settler to axe rush an opponent. Move this settler to the spot where you fnd the copper. (If you don't find copper, forget about the axe rush...) Settle right next to the copper, use the worker to build a mine and connect the two cities. Start rushing out axemen.

Most opponents don't go to bw so fast, so you normally only have to counter archers.

In my last game I was playing as Alexander with copper only a few tiles away from my capital. I built some phalanx (his uu) and destroyed three civs BC. They had no copper near and never got around to connect the iron. :)

But it took me some time to get my economy up to spec after that... :p

In no.5, What exactly is GW & Cats?

GW = Great Wall
Cats = Catapults

If you don't mind me asking you a question, Which AI is the toughest to go against when Warmongering?


I'l look into the Nobles club too :goodjob:


Depends. If you are trying some early rush, protective AIs are pretty tough. Some of these protective archers on a hill will cost you a lot of units.

;6711245']Thanks. I was going for the oracle then getting Metal casting so I could build forges Before rushing :king:

Not too sure building forges before the rush is a good idea. The point of a rush is going fast, very fast. I'd say chop & whip like a madman to get your army ready.

As a rule of thumb, I'd say 7-8 praets should be enough to declare a war (IF you were quick enough, that is). Continue building them until you're 100% sure your opponent is toast. It sucks to miss on his last city because you lack 1 unit.

I'd skip any wonders, hopefully your target will have build one... The oracle is the only one I'd consider, for courthouses (or forges). In any case, code of laws and currency should be priority after the rush, as you're likely to have an early big empire.

Finally, the only worthwhile building is IMO a Barrack. Also, consider building roads towards your target, reinforcements will come way quicker.

Once it's over, see if you have enough promoted praets to attack a second target. No need to completely kill him off, but taking some strategic cities could be nice. Or at least some pillaging to slow him down before you come back knocking on his door...

Preat rush in it's more pure form:
-open with bronze working and a worker
- build barracks
- Tech Iron working
- Get settler for second city ( to hook iron )
- Tech the wheel
- Start Chopping preatorians while teching other worker techs
- When you have 5-6 Preatorians ( I would use less , but I like to take chances ) and a occasional axe if you feel so ( only possible counter of the time is shock axes ), unleash the fury.
- If possible make it to other civ while teching to Code of Laws or currency ( you'll need it ;) ). Preats have a huge longevity ( a City Raider 3 Preatorian can dislodge a fortified unpromoted grenadier in a city stripped of cultural defenses with some ease ), so you don't need to worry too much about conuter until War elephants, maces, longbows and crossbows start to appear

Preat rush in it's more pure form:
-open with bronze working and a worker
- build barracks
- Tech Iron working
- Get settler for second city ( to hook iron )
- Tech the wheel
- Start Chopping preatorians while teching other worker techs
- When you have 5-6 Preatorians ( I would use less , but I like to take chances ) and a occasional axe if you feel so ( only possible counter of the time is shock axes ), unleash the fury.
- If possible make it to other civ while teching to Code of Laws or currency ( you'll need it ;) ). Preats have a huge longevity ( a City Raider 3 Preatorian can dislodge a fortified unpromoted grenadier in a city stripped of cultural defenses with some ease ), so you don't need to worry too much about conuter until War elephants, maces, longbows and crossbows start to appear

Do you go for IW before improving your food resources?

If I have seafood, yes ( Romans start with fishing )

;6711017']
Which AI is the toughest to go against when Warmongering?


If they can keep up in tech, then Montezuma or Tokugawa are very tough. Monty spams insane numbers of units, while Toku gets one or more free promotions for almost all of his units. Thankfully, these two are probably the worst techers in the game.

More often, Shaka is the guy you'll need to worry about. He expands fast, techs fairly well, builds lots of units, and loves to attack (and often vassalise) weaker civs. His one significant weakness is the ease with which he can be bribed to attack other civs, allowing you to keep him off your back for extended periods whilst slowing his tech rate. Just pay close attention to the power graph and be careful not to set him on any really weak civs, or else he'll quickly absorb their lands and become even more of a threat.

In general, I think your first settler comes out too late. I get mine out around size 2 with the food bar anywhere from half to full.
But then again, I use the whip to get warrior scouts out and also whip to finish up that settler.

Yeah, if you're waiting until size 4 to build your first settler, it's probably way too late. You need to get that second city out pretty quickly, and it helps to research BW right away and chop some forest to speed it up. I usually build my second city at size 2-3, usually after a couple of warriors and a worker. If you don't have much forest/have a lot of food, don't be afraid to whip as well. This is something I still have problems doing as a Monarch player, timing the whip right :(

As a side comment...

;6710922']- The AIs Always end up having more Cities then me - I build my first settler at City Size 4, But it seems the AI keeps expanding TOWARDS me.

That's because they _are_. Luckily, they expand towards the other Civs as well, so unless you're on a continent alone with a single AI, you should be fine.

And obviously, you should expand towards them as well.

If you're working on a rush-rush, try to make two Workers extra. The purpose of these Workers is purely for building roads from your military centers to your next target so your Praetorians can get there twice as fast - crucial for warring on Normal speeds. All roads lead to Rome!

Thanks guys!