Or so I wish :rolleyes:. Having tried a few emperor games, it indeed seems the biggest difficulty jump I've come across to date (though noble ---> prince taught me quite a bit too!).

As I feel my diplomacy choices and war knowledge are more than sufficient to beat AI's at this level (backstabs are rare occasions for me, even at this new difficulty, and I've won many a war with a fraction of the AI power rating), it seems that my economy is NOT. I'll focus on the early game once again in this thread, which looks the most different at emperor difficulty and is almost surely where I'm flopping:

1. I tend to fall quite behind in tech at emperor. Having seen a few high level games, this appears normal. However, not to the extent I fall behind. I've gotten some useful advice from silverbullet, suggesting that I focus on researching something I can trade the AI (this makes fundamental sense, since doing so effectively doubles up your beakers). HOWEVER, I get to the point where I can't research anything like that because I'm too backwards! OK, that's a problem. Let's see why then -------->

2. Opening build/settling decisions: I admit I could specialize my cities a lot better than I do as the game draws on. However, it looks to me like I'm failing prior to seeing the negative effects of weak specialization regardless. Specifically, I'm finding my economy tanking on me considerably after settling 4 cities! (capitol included). Prior to now, my usual opening usually involved 3-4 cities, well improved, then picking up code of laws or currency (depending on short-term intentions, as IMO currency seems a stronger play in desperation, such as overexpansion). After having 3-4 cities, I'd choose either war or further peaceful expansion depending on the map. This works great on Monarch, so well it's easy even.

Of course, that's assuming someone isn't in my face preventing expansion. That calls for a rush, but rushing before economy techs isn't usually my priority unless I'm walled in.

On Emperor, I can still settle 4 cities by 1 AD and have them all reasonably improved, but I run into a somewhat difficult problem: I'm at 30% research or so, and far below the typical BPT I see from players who know what they're doing. I'm often told that what matters is your position relative to AI's, and I know it's true, but I'm routinely too far behind other AI's, which only supports the idea that my BPT are too low ^_^. This opening may not be optimal (I may be settling cities 2,3, or 4, or some combination too slowly or quickly, for example). I know I have enough workers, as it's rare that I work unimproved tiles. Usually have slightly more than 1/city.

3. On wonders: This isn't advice I need, as I never favored wonders (unless, or course, I'm capturing them!). It's not that I don't build the oracle, pyramids, stonehenge, GL or the GW in my games, it's just that I almost never bother making more than one (and I usually build that one with a strategy in mind), and about half the time I don't even do that. I like my units, be they military or workers/settlers. Is this a mistake? I can't imagine getting more than one of these without killing my expansion at emperor anyway (actually, i've long practiced not getting tons of wonders for just this jump :lol:). I love Obsolete's writeups, don't get me wrong, but I like warring early :).

4. On emperor warfare: This might be the single hardest adjustment for me. Is warring and still keeping up reasonably in tech impossible at emperor? It doesn't seem to me like it should be. However, as my economy already seems bad to me, massing units seems like it would get me so backwards that I couldn't war effectively after a short while (even at epic speed!). My intuition tells me that this is moreso derived from a lack of economy management, rather than the inability to war in late classical/early medieval/basically any time someone's vulnerable. However, if I'm mistaken, I'd of course like to know :).

So basically, from the late BC's through about 1000 AD, how do you guys bet your BPT higher than, say, 20-30 and still expand? While I'm teching at that rate, I won't be hitting beelines for techs fast enough to trade and keep up, so apparently I need to get this up (and ideally still field a military!).

20-30 bpt is pretty low for that era. How are you getting the gold to fund your empire? For both FE/CE, you want to try settling near rivers as it enables riverside cottages and/or farms. Maybe you're putting off researching code of laws + currency? Those two techs are necessary to really build a large empire at the higher levels as the city maintenance cost goes up pretty fast.

Could you post a 1 AD and 1000 AD save from a recent game?

However, it looks to me like I'm failing prior to seeing the negative effects of weak specialization regardless. Specifically, I'm finding my economy tanking on me considerably after settling 4 cities!
Specialization can happen before you even found the city -- if your suffering from crippling financial problems at this point, then that probably means you aren't doing a good job of selecting good commercial city sites, and improving the land with cottages... and/or you haven't selected a good food site for running scientists.

4 cities isn't enough. You need to claim land more aggressively even if it sinks you into a tech hole. Also consider getting monarchy early and running HR and expanding your cities vertically more quickly. There are few problems that horizontal expansion causes that can't be fixed by vertical expansion.

I hate war in this period. Either war very early or later once you have a tech lead. A medieval slugfest is difficult to pull off without losing a lot of ground relative to the non fighting AIs.

If i was stuck with 4 cities I would go for a war almost immediately. If you don't you're going to lose, plain and simple. You might do ok techwise up until liberalism, but after that you'll fall way behind.

As for when to war, i'm the same as InvisibleStalke. I'll do an axe rush in the beginning, but it's rare that i'll fight again until rifles and cannons. Though joining a dogpile for an easy city or two is always a good idea, plus you get diplo boosts with the attackers.

I always try to go for the kremlin too, since I play marathon and there rushbuying is more effective than drafting, imo.

what seems to be the problem is that your beakers are characteristic of a CE during that period. now i love cottages, we all do, but scientists can heal a myriad of tech problems early on (ie until currency/CoL). whip out libraries in each city after expansion/rushing and run two scientists in each until CoL and/or currency. then you can cottage up to your hearts desire. btw it is important to get each of your cities in places with good food resources (not plains cows or an oasis).

also i completely agree with InvisibleStalke, don't war in the classical period/early medieval. catapults and swords won't cut it against longbowmen.

My latest CE game had 7 cities at 675BC. Unfortunately I don't have many savegames around 1AD - probably because I'm at peace usually then and turns go quickly. Another game had 7 cities at 100 BC (was about to found two more) and 45 science per turn.

With 7 cities you can specialize. Say 1 heavily cottaged capital, two cities running scientists off high food, 2 production cities and 2 cottage cities. Early on you need specialists for intense research and cottages to pay the bills. Running a mix at this stage is probably more efficient than either on its own.

Make sure you capture enough land to be able to fill in to 10-12 cities. Otherwise you won't be able to compete. Then beeline deep into the tech tree to get a military lead. Expand rapidly through conquest. Consolidate. Beeline. Conquer. Repeat.

If you are playing with 4 cities too don't bother with COL or currency - you don't need them - you are paying very little maintenance on 4 cities and have too few cities for currency to help either. Games where I optimize a small number of cities involve lots of wonderbuilding. Eg Great Library, Pyramids. Its a viable alternative to REX, but techs like currency and COL aren't priorities in that case - Literature is.

If you are playing with 4 cities too don't bother with COL or currency - you don't need them - you are paying very little maintenance on 4 cities and have too few cities for currency to help either. Games where I optimize a small number of cities involve lots of wonderbuilding. Eg Great Library, Pyramids. Its a viable alternative to REX, but techs like currency and COL aren't priorities in that case - Literature is.

7 cities in the BC era? Does that not push the slider to 0? Apparently per your advice though, this isn't an issue (I'm assuming you're using libraries and bulb trading to tech at this point then?) If I'm not mistaken this approach seems to rely on cottages solely for keeping you afloat at or near 0% slider, using the libraries for early bulbing while the cottages grow.

I had more land available...I could easily have settled 8 cities or more, but got pretty un-nerved by 4 dropping me to 30% science. This could also be a function of settling on land that was pretty commerce poor (nothing I could do about that since there weren't many river/commerce tiles, so I have to adjust), but the situation just seemed so ugly.

And in my OP I admit specializing is a weak point, that doesn't imply I don't do so :). Generally I can identify strong specialization sites (it's pretty obvious in terms of general locale), I just have to be careful not to lose focus.

I don't understand how to get 7 cities that early unless I'm playing marathon (which is never, I play epic), but I can probably have 7 by 50-100AD or so. Maybe via chopping/whipping more than I already do a bit faster. However, it seems based on this that if I want to run CE I need to get my cities settled or captured quickly, even if it screws research. The only problem is, how do I even marginally keep up in tech in that scenario?

I always feel like a sitting duck when I REX past 4 cities early (though I often use them to wall off at least), unless I'm isolated, where I fall behind in tech pretty badly at emperor (though I win iso games easily on monarch :lol:).

Hi,

I've been mostly lurking around this forum and such, I think this might only be my second post. So bear this in mind. I do win all of my games on Monarch with random leaders/random map, but I mostly play small maps with the standard number of AIs as my computer can't take the bigger maps in the later eras. For some reason I like Terra maps.

With this being said, I've won quite a few games on Emperor (thinking of moving to Immortal once I win very consistently with all leader types), but I was struggling at first as well. The jump in difficulty seemed huge. What helped me immensely was:

1. Play financial leaders. Playing financial makes creating a good economy quite easy (I'm mostly using hybrid SE/CE economies, with the emphasis being on specialists in the early game). Settling a riverside city and cottaging it is a very good source of income with financial even in the early game, as you get 3 commerce from a riverside cottage.

2. On wonders: Build the Pyramids. Essentially doubles your beaker output from scientists and is very good with caste system. The Great Library is also a good one to get in your science city (which is mostly my capital in my games).

3. On Science: Also tech to writing after your have your most needed worker techs and run 2 scientists as soon as you can. Settle the first GS and after that bulbing a few key techs (philosophy and education comes to mind) can put you back in the driving seat even after extensive warfare and over-expansion.

4. Warfare. There's 2 approaches here that have worked for me consistently: either war very early with axes, taking out your nearest neighbor or war in the riflemen era when you have a tech lead.

5. Whipping/chopping. One thing that was very difficult to get used to was the increased usage of chopping/whipping. Normally in my games I'd leave much of the forest around my capital for later use. On Emperor it's crucial that you get out as many settlers/workers/axes (depending on your needs) as quick as you can.

6. Emphasize food rich city sites first.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, take it with a grain of salt, as I'm not a very experienced poster/player, but these things tend to work for me. The most important lesson for me was to run a scientist based early game economy (you can mix in a few riverside cottages if you're financial for an added boost).

I believe I'm at the same point as TheMeInTeam. I'm trying to learn SE better in an attempt to get myself over that emperor hurdle where I can win sometimes but not as consistently as I'd like.

And I think Mr. TwoPosts is right about the whipping/chopping. After trying SE a few times, I realized that I wasn't whipping NEARLY enough. I foresee myself become a downright sadist now. I'm guessing that whipping/chopping and better specialization is what we need, TheMeInTeam (TMIT).

Like you I play on epic and have trouble sticking to my specialized cities. There just seems to be a lot of "down time" in epic. So I'll build a market where I shouldn't. And since it has a market, why not give it a grocer? And it could use a bank too, right? Every little bit helps, right?! Right!

And that goes on until I have a bunch of vaguely specialized cities that are barely different from each other. Is that a bad thing? I'm not sure.

Edit: LIAR! Mr. TwoPosts has three posts!

I play emperor/normal speed and win about 3/4 of the time. I prefer CE because it requires less MM, but I am forcing myself this week to play a pure SE with Gandhi - no cottages except those I capture. I think I must have a better understanding of the SE mechanics to tackle Immortal.

To help me stay focused on city specialization - I often rename cities with a suffix - Bombay/military; Calcutta/superscience; and so on. Then everytime I dial up the cityscreen I am reminded of my original plan.

In my GOTM I am winning with a significant tech lead, but I can feel my SE slowing down as the Modern era begins. I don't know whether to stick it out with the SE or to transition over to a CE. I am targeting Biology to see if that can kickstart my fading SE.

I ended up creating in effect two GP farms; my capitol which had several wonders and a megafloodplain city with tons of food and the National Epic. They did a pretty good job of alternating in GP production.

7 cities in the BC era? Does that not push the slider to 0? Apparently per your advice though, this isn't an issue (I'm assuming you're using libraries and bulb trading to tech at this point then?) If I'm not mistaken this approach seems to rely on cottages solely for keeping you afloat at or near 0% slider, using the libraries for early bulbing while the cottages grow.


Yep it sure does. In this game at 675BC my slider would have been at 0% except for deficit research. But a couple of libraries, some scientists, some riverside cottages and a few turns later and its humming again. Maybe at 30% or so - but with more cities and some scientists thats easily enough.

As an extreme example in one game at around 100AD I had 12 cities and was losing 20coins a turn at 0% science. But a switch to caste system to run some merchants and nearly 10 scientists in the capital (love HR) meant that by about 500AD my economy was really humming.

I am probably settling scientists at this point and building academies. Lightbulbing comes a bit later if I do it.


I had more land available...I could easily have settled 8 cities or more, but got pretty un-nerved by 4 dropping me to 30% science. This could also be a function of settling on land that was pretty commerce poor (nothing I could do about that since there weren't many river/commerce tiles, so I have to adjust), but the situation just seemed so ugly.


If you are running entirely a food based economy (ie using scientists for research and no cottages) you should plan on dropping to 0% science. It will be fine - great people can make up for any deficits. And once you get to 0% science, then add some cottages and expand again as soon as you can afford it. Once you get COL you can even run merchants instead of cottages.

I tend to run cottage economies where I have lots of river and jungle - lots of green tiles. If your land was mainly brown with some food specials then an early SE would serve you a lot better.

Something you might want to try is building the great lighthouse and settling along the coast. I've had around 13 cities packed in peacefully before 500AD on Emperor and my economy has been humming.


And in my OP I admit specializing is a weak point, that doesn't imply I don't do so :). Generally I can identify strong specialization sites (it's pretty obvious in terms of general locale), I just have to be careful not to lose focus.


Early game specialization is easy. You need a couple of cities for production for units and workers/settlers. High food cities build libraries and run your scientists. Low food river cities build cottages.


I don't understand how to get 7 cities that early unless I'm playing marathon (which is never, I play epic), but I can probably have 7 by 50-100AD or so. Maybe via chopping/whipping more than I already do a bit faster. However, it seems based on this that if I want to run CE I need to get my cities settled or captured quickly, even if it screws research. The only problem is, how do I even marginally keep up in tech in that scenario?


I play standard speed. 7 at 675 BC involved an axe rush. 7 by 0AD is kinda mandatory though and easy to do off standard production. I will tend to clear cut forests at this stage in the game for the production boost. Whipping I am doing less of than I used to as I'm going into caste system earlier.


I always feel like a sitting duck when I REX past 4 cities early (though I often use them to wall off at least), unless I'm isolated, where I fall behind in tech pretty badly at emperor (though I win iso games easily on monarch :lol:).

If two of your cities are focussing on production you should be able to defend yourself with more cities. In fact you are safer - since you can whip a bigger army more quickly if you need it and more cities for you means less land for the AI.

I have quite the same problems in immortal :o
I think I do understand the theory, but just cant apply it.

You (good players) always seem to get everything easy, you have many&big cities, incredible science output, good military, you stay alive in the tech race etc...

I just dont manage to : get my Great scientists out AND get enough military to aggress anyone AND get the mid or the GL AND build enough infrastructure AND get monarchy early AND ...

I would really love a 'replay' mode in civ4 so I can get all the details of one's games...

I would really love a 'replay' mode in civ4 so I can get all the details of one's games...

Well, one can always log his games (HOF mode). If you check everything, you know even what the workers were doing.

I would really love a 'replay' mode in civ4 so I can get all the details of one's games...
Unfortunately it is not there.
You can look at several games in the immortal university thread. Some players rushed, some REXED, and have recovered the economy there.

Another great game to look at is Snaaty's guide. With a financial and organized leader he settles 8 cities very quickly and gets liberalism around 300AD.


I think one of the key points at this level is that you need many workers. Cities should get their borders expanded ASAP, and get crucial improvements quickly.
A financial leader has a big early game advantage if you can settle a riverside cottage - the city would pay for itself right from the start IF you send 2 workers to cottage some tiles ASAP.

Other traits have their own things that help early game (just don't play Toku :)).

In general:
New cities should get monument as the first building and it should be whipped at pop 2.
The food resource should be hooked up first, as whipping is the main source of production early game.
You could go cottage economy (work farms and cottages only - don't waste time on mines) or you could go farm economy. Farm economy doesn't mean you run specialists everywhere, it just means you focus on growth and whipping, and sometimes run specialists. When I first played emperor I found cottage economy to be easier, since the commerce comes more directly.

Regardless of the way you go, one city (usually capital) should run 2 scientist specialists ASAP. An academy in the capital combined with Bureaucracy and monarchy can generate 200+ beakers in mid game.

I suggest you start a new game and ask for advice every 20~40 turns or so.

My latest CE game had 7 cities at 675BC. Unfortunately I don't have many savegames around 1AD - probably because I'm at peace usually then and turns go quickly. Another game had 7 cities at 100 BC (was about to found two more) and 45 science per turn.

With 7 cities you can specialize. Say 1 heavily cottaged capital, two cities running scientists off high food, 2 production cities and 2 cottage cities. Early on you need specialists for intense research and cottages to pay the bills. Running a mix at this stage is probably more efficient than either on its own.

Make sure you capture enough land to be able to fill in to 10-12 cities. Otherwise you won't be able to compete. Then beeline deep into the tech tree to get a military lead. Expand rapidly through conquest. Consolidate. Beeline. Conquer. Repeat.


Yea I agree, 7 cities around 100 bc with 45 science a turn is what I aim for. This is generally the time that AI gets longbows and expanding further is difficult, so might its a good growth era. Grow your cities up, whip the buildings, get a gp farm and heroic epic rolling, and mid fuedal ages you should be good to go and easily beat an emperor ai. Even immortal games become relatively straightforward if you can get yourself in that position at 100 bc.

(double post)

Unfortunately it is not there.
You can look at several games in the immortal university thread. Some players rushed, some REXED, and have recovered the economy there.
i read most of the guides here, looked to many games.

I am able to win liberalism race, or to rex up to 8 early cities, or to axe rush an opponent, but my problem is whatever the path I choose there's always something going wrong : I get DoW by massive stacks of units, or i fall far behind in tech (and once you cant exchange anything you're lost), or I realize my empire is far too small compared to the AI.

My pb is not to loose, I like civilization to be a challenging game, but in immortal it seems to me that I did not progress at all since my first try (I had some wins though, but these were good maps + favorable conduct of the game - you know when everything seems to go fine).

listen to invisblestalke. and whip a lot more.

My pb is not to loose, I like civilization to be a challenging game, but in immortal it seems to me that I did not progress at all since my first try
Can you try again and post a save of your early game and mid-game?
I found the community here really helpful in giving feedback.
Also I found that I play much much better if I actually stop the game, summarize the status and then actually think what I have to do.
Overall I found the Monarch->Emperor jump to be much harder than Emperor->Immortal jump, and I think this mainly due to the fact that for the first one I tried to do it myself, and for the immortal I post my games here. I have not mastered this level yet, but I had now 3 consecutive wins in my posted games.

Also consider getting monarchy early and running HR and expanding your cities vertically more quickly.

This is key. With a small number of cities (like 4) Monarchy is a much better economic tech than CoL. Hereditary Rule can really be abused. When I build the Oracle, Monarchy is the tech I most often choose.

Z

This is key. With a small number of cities (like 4) Monarchy is a much better economic tech than CoL. Hereditary Rule can really be abused. When I build the Oracle, Monarchy is the tech I most often choose.

Z

It is map dependent. On many map I find that I can get 2~3 happy resources early on (or trade for them), and then I go for CoL and trade it for Monarchy. The AI will trade Monarchy in return for CoL if you spend 1~2 turns of research into it.

I've tried the REXing using the whip to speed up infrastructure in new cities, and libraries. Indeed, I can pretty much match the research I'd had at lower levels this way. While the AI does seem to tech faster, it isn't as bad as I thought on emperor.

I'm still working on the transitions, particularly if I want to quit using mainly food cities for specialists (they seem almost necessary due to slider pains and bulb-trading, regardless of whether you plan to continue using them or use cottages) and start working cottages. I could also try SE, but the problem I seem to run into is that when warring I don't get my hands on important SE techs in time. Also, food seems a bit of a problem depending on the map (although this IS alleviated by taking enemy cities :evil:). Specialists must be fed SOMEHOW, and if there aren't enough good food resources around...

Anyway, after a few games this weekend I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of emperor games. A couple more tries and I think I'll have it. Thanks all, as usual :).

Meinteam,
I, like you, have just made the jump from monarch to Emperor and I feel that I may be able to help you. Imho researching is much more important than building a huge army in the early game (that can be done when you have rifles and they have macemen) so build only what you need to survive and REX like crazy (It helps if you have someone creative or imperialistic).To get early reaserch going I suggest that you focus on one wonder that would realy improve your teching strategy eg. the mids if your going SE, the GLH if your costal. If all else fails nothing helps you tech better early than cottage spam. This way even if you end up at 50% research you can still tech decently (50% of 100 is still 50). This way you easly get Col or Currency with 5-6 cities.
Spam Courthouses to cut down on maitnance while biulding libraries and markets to tech better and a few units now and then to keep the power up.
After you tech currancy trade to any AI with a decent hunk of change. not only does this keep relations up but it also lets you research at 100% for as long as possible then rinse and repeat.
I have to leave now but you can discuss that for now.

It sounds a lot like what I was doing on monarch (relying on cottage spam or a wonder moreso than lots of libraries running specialists). My problem with it is that if you get to 6 cities in the BC's, the slider isn't going to be at 50%. It will typically be closer to 0 than 50%. Of course, specialists can fuel research during this period as cottages grow (or be research themselves for a long time with mids). Bulbing offers trade bait, or settling in cities specialized for what the GP does, and the scientists offer 6 beakers per city on their own. Add in a few commerce tiles and something like a cottage capitol, and I'm finding it easier to get closer to double the BPT I was getting before. Cottages, as they grow, could then support raising the slider again or military upgrade money.

I've found after playing a few games that now more so than ever the tiles themselves matter a LOT. The presence of gold/silver/gems early can make a game a lot easier, as can just ridiculous amounts of food tiles or flood plains. Strategic resource monopolies are nice too, as in such a situation I'd not wait for rifles, but rather pound the nearby civs into submission easily and much sooner. Also, early jungles piss me off a lot :(.

I've long found waiting for rifles unnecessary, as long as I've had siege from the proper era I seem to clean up without any trouble at parity. This often sends me for cannons rather than rifles (and grenades are a tech away at that point). Still, even in medieval times the trebs are solid to attack with. CR II trebs will beat all but the stoutest longbows in defending cities, and tend to damage the others. A stack of them and some cleanup is all you need to wipe out HUGE medieval SoDs and force capitulation or destruction easily. Why wait for rifles? A balanced stack with trebs wins at parity NP, because the AI does some really stupid things at war, like parking its only SoD (which usually doesn't have longbows...) in a recently recaptured city and asking you to kill it quickly.

Why wait for rifles?
In some games you have to rely on drafting to get good production. In some games you cannot produce enough trebs for a quick war. Another issue is that a treb war might slow down your research too much.
A focus on liberalism race with rifles or cannons beeline seems to work well, but it is definitely not the only way.

I too am working on the jump to Emperor; and, I too am getting burried technologically. Lots of the advice here sounds good; however, it seems to be a long list of things to do that are incompatible with each other, or lots of things to do sooner, that don't correspondingly say what to put off. For example, whip more. Okay, but how do I continuously whip my cities from 4 to 2 or 5 to 3 and simultaneously run 2 scientists in each one? Another, I should get writing for libraries sooner, fine, but I also have to have Mysticism for Monuments to pop my borders, and Fishing, and Ag, and, AH, and Wheel/Pottery for cottages, and bronze, (and Iron because there is no bronze), and they say you need Archers at this level because the Barbs will overrun your Warrior defended cities etc. etc.

As you can see, I've gotten a little frustrated. I suppose what I need most help in is help prioritizing the very early research goals. I'll settle for that and see if I can apply it.

you may not want to wait for rifles but I found that they can really clean up against backwards AI's. Also I still don't see how you are unable to support your empire at 6 cities. I did exactly what I was telling you in my latest game and ended up taking Physics with Lib (I was going to take Steam power but I got a ridiculous trade, Sci Meth and gold for education, and it popped up) and look to win a space race in 1650.

It helps to not rely on early wars that hamper your research but instead blow past the AI's and then crush them under your boot.

I've tried both ways actually. I definitely run into gold problems with 6 cities though, unless I'm organized, financial, or have powerful resources available to me.

As for warring early or later, I find it situational. When land grab is easy, grab land :p. I've had middle age stuff against ai's without longbows before, and those are easy wars. My production, the AI's tech level, their troop count, whether I can backstab, etc all factor into my decision to hit sooner or wait. Problem always is, I just don't seem to be able to tech at the rate you describe. I could always get a minor tech lead on monarch...along the lines of maybe 20-30 epic turns to use my recently acquired rifles, cannons, or grenades to mop up somebody before other ai's had them. Of course, there would always be a civ or two backwards enough to crush after my first gunpowder victim, and if I got THAT big the game was in hand.

I'm not getting there first on emperor. Not yet. However it's looking more promising than it did even last week.

I too am working on the jump to Emperor; and, I too am getting burried technologically. Lots of the advice here sounds good; however, it seems to be a long list of things to do that are incompatible with each other, or lots of things to do sooner, that don't correspondingly say what to put off. For example, whip more. Okay, but how do I continuously whip my cities from 4 to 2 or 5 to 3 and simultaneously run 2 scientists in each one? Another, I should get writing for libraries sooner, fine, but I also have to have Mysticism for Monuments to pop my borders, and Fishing, and Ag, and, AH, and Wheel/Pottery for cottages, and bronze, (and Iron because there is no bronze), and they say you need Archers at this level because the Barbs will overrun your Warrior defended cities etc. etc.

As you can see, I've gotten a little frustrated. I suppose what I need most help in is help prioritizing the very early research goals. I'll settle for that and see if I can apply it.

Whipping more isn't really good advice. In fact overwhipping is as bad as never whipping.

Consider what your city needs and whip it in while the city is small and then wait on adding other infrastructure - either slow building or whipping unhappy citizens.

Eg Commerce city.

In early game may only need a monument. Then just leave it alone and let it grow.

Later you will want a granary for higher caps and a courthouse if its outlying.

Much later add libraries (often your slider is too low to use them) and markets once it produces enough commerce to be worth it.

Or in Science city.

In early game it only needs a library. Run your two scientists.

Later add granary so it regrows quickly and a courthouse so you can add a spy.

Much later add forge and other buildings.

Production cities:

Whip often for units - thats OK.

Need a barracks. Later a forge.

Of course high food cities can be any of the above. And at times you may want every city to produce units. But be wary of whipping in too many buildings too early.

For research a good rule of thumb is to prioritize:

- Worker techs to unlock special tiles in capital.
- Military techs for self defense. On Emperor you probably have enough time for 3-4 techs before you must go archery (depending on whether archery is 1 or 2 techs away). So if you only spent two techs on worker techs and then try mining + bronze and didn't find copper, immediately go for archery.

Then you get strategy specific with:
- Pottery if you are intending to run cottages in your capital (if financial or floodplains) or
- Writing if you have a high food capital and intend to run scientists or
- Masonry/Mysticism if you plan on wonderspamming.

I've tried both ways actually. I definitely run into gold problems with 6 cities though, unless I'm organized, financial, or have powerful resources available to me.

As for warring early or later, I find it situational. When land grab is easy, grab land :p. I've had middle age stuff against ai's without longbows before, and those are easy wars. My production, the AI's tech level, their troop count, whether I can backstab, etc all factor into my decision to hit sooner or wait. Problem always is, I just don't seem to be able to tech at the rate you describe. I could always get a minor tech lead on monarch...along the lines of maybe 20-30 epic turns to use my recently acquired rifles, cannons, or grenades to mop up somebody before other ai's had them. Of course, there would always be a civ or two backwards enough to crush after my first gunpowder victim, and if I got THAT big the game was in hand.

I'm not getting there first on emperor. Not yet. However it's looking more promising than it did even last week.

I find on Emperor that the AI always has longbows before I have macemen. I don't reach the point of a military tech lead until cannons/rifles.

I'd put much more emphasis on granaries than that. Unless I need a border pop desperately, a granary will be the first improvement built in almost any city. Depending on the food/hammer situation, I probably whip it for 1 pop once half completed.
This will make the city growth afterwards *much* faster. Especially when you say
Then just leave it alone and let it grow.
this pretty much requires a granary to be effective. Any city that is supposed to grow more than 2 pop points in the near future - for whipping or working tiles - needs a granary ASAP.

For cottage cities: Monument->granary->lib->market->court. I whip everything when it's possible, hence granary will help a lot. Court comes after granary IF I'm playing org.

But to say granary before monument seems rather pointless. Unless all your resources and good tiles are within the first borders, which usually isn't the case.

You only need a granary once you have a happy cap greater than 4. So by later I mean once you have your initial happiness cap problem solved - either by HR or by pyramids - unless you are really lucky with resources or are charismatic.

Putting a granary in to rush to your happy cap of 4 seems overkill to me - especially since my early cities almost always have a food special anyway. They will grow more than fast enough at that time in the game.

But later a granary is almost always the next building built. And once my happy cap is raised nearly every city will get one quickly.

I have to disagree; whipping is the greatest thing ever. I just won my last two emperor games in spectacular fashion — my highest score ever (127k) and a another game that I had no business winning at all — and whipping is a big part. I didn't do it near enough before. Whipping gives you what you need quick, giving you a turn advantage. I whip the slaves so much now that when I adopt emancipation, my population starts demanding reparations.

My advice would be to whip more and learn SE. I don't prefer a strict SE to a good ol' cottage, but combining the two seems to be working very well for me. I use an SE to get me going, and then cottages to send me into the stratosphere.

Also, golden ages seem to be helping me a great deal. I rarely hear about this but I've taken to (in the last couple games at least) burning GPs on golden ages. Then, while in the golden age, I switch to pacifism. That means I can usually produce enough great persons to start the next golden age. With a little luck (and the Taj Mahal) I can get two or three of them in a row, which shoots me up big time. Artists work great for this.

So... Get that granary in there ASAP. Whipping works best when the town is small and can regrow quickly.

My advice would be to whip more and learn SE. I don't prefer a strict SE to a good ol' cottage, but combining the two seems to be working very well for me. I use an SE to get me going, and then cottages to send me into the stratosphere.



It looks like almost everyone is saying I need to learn to better use specialists, regardless of what "economy type" I ultimately want to end up in. Early experimentation of my own seems to indicate that such advice will help me greatly once I manage :).

Since there is somewhat of a disagreement on usage of the whip here, do you care to elaborate? Do you only whip infrastructure? Do you whip out workers and/or settlers? Do you follow invisiblestalker's advice of holding off on EARLY graneries only because the whip anger dissapates faster than the pop growth? If it's helping your early game a lot, I'd like some specifics :).

My early game was helped when I eased off the whip. I'm playing successfully on Immortal now so it can't be TOO bad of an approach.

I'd like to hear from the compulsive whippers what it is that they are whipping so much of. Production cities will whip units. And in war time every city will whip units. But in peacetime I need time where scientists and cottages are being worked, not just constantly farms to regrow from the last whip. So how many buildings do you need?

For cottage cities for example, I don't need a library until fairly late - because I'll almost certainly be running very low on the science slider for the first third of the game at least.

And a specialist city doesn't need a monument unless you have a perfect location with all the food resources in the outer circle. It needs a library urgently. And then later add a granary.

To put a bit of perspective on this though - in the first half of the game most of my building production will be from whipping - but that might mean that each city gets 3-4 key buildings whipped in, plus another 1-2 slow built. Military production during peak times will be mainly whipping, but during peacetimes will mainly be built off mines - since a high food site with no hills would probably become a specialist city.

I'm not arguing against whipping per se - but I found that I was doing too much of it and not getting enough scientist turns or cottage turns.

An Emperor is born :). In the PYL 2 game, no less! Thanks for all the advice! While my game still needs a ton of refining, I'm getting an understanding of its workings enough to compete at this level and not be overwhelmed. Probably the biggest adjustment is a reduced margin for error when it comes to strategic decisions, and getting/paying for more cities more rapidly. At least, that was the case for me. I was surprised how quickly I could turn a large # of cities / crashed economy into a winning position if I worked tiles correctly and kept power up enough to to avoid geting my face stomped in.

Winning while surrounded by a bunch of backstabbers and having to manage diplomacy as if I were on a sheet of ice made it that much sweeter for a first emperor win :).

Congratulations!