In general, I have steered away from altering tiles that already have improvements. The notable exception for me is putting Watermills down on some farm tiles. I never (well, maybe very rarely, hate saying "never") watermill over Cottages, but lately I have been keeping the future in mind when choosing tiles for Cottages, and not just building them all over in most cases. Many farms are built specifically with a future watermill in mind.

But my question is "Should I be looking to Windmill over Mines?" I almost never do this, I am not sure why, but I just find I almost never ever do it. I will windmill some hills instead of mining them, especially Desert hills, or late-game city hills. Quite often, I will Mine over some Windmills if a late resource pops in one like Coal, Uranium or Aluminum. But I cannot ever remember actively Windmilling over a single mine.

I notice that once I hit State Property, and have other techs that make Windmills (and watermills and workshops, of course) stronger, I have a tendency to AVOID working the mines because they just arent as productive as a Watermill or Workshop, especially when using Caste + SP, and juicing the Culture slider to avoid Emancipation unhappiness (in late game SEs). I almost always research Democracy before Communism, and love Emance with a CE, especially combined with Free Speech and US. Is that the point I should look to change some of the mines as well? I have even considered cottaging over some of the mines, since I noticed that technique being used effectively in some RPCs I follow. Late-game, mines just seem like bad tiles if they dont have a bonus resource, 1F3H is junk for a Grass Hill compared to a Grass watermill or Workshop in State Property. Of course, Railroad gives another hammer, but is it enough?

State Property is one of my fav civics too, because I enjoy expanding, conquering other continents, and spamming lots of cities, even late in the game. My old SMAC habits are hard to break, heh, the Drop Colony Pod is one of my fav SMAC units, LOL.

So when should I look to do this (if its something I should be doing)? Is it better to cottage or windmill hills, and are the choices Civic-Dependant? Does it matter if I am running an SE or a CE or a hybrid? Are there other variables I should consider when making this type of decision? Are there other tiles that should be looking to upgrade later in the game other than hills? Are leaders traits a factor (since a FIN leader will get the extra coin from a riverside Windmill that isnt there from the mine)?

I know there have been other threads on the topic, but I couldnt find any with my brief search, and I am lazy when it comes to searching anyway. There is always a lot of threads about early game strats and techniques, as there should be, but as I go up in difficulties, my games go later and longer, so issues like this pop up more often when trying Emperor rather than Prince. On Prince, my games are pretty much in the bag by the time I get to State Property, so the issue is kind of moot. But at higher levels, when every edge counts, topics like this carry more importance, IMHO.

Did you know mines get +1h from railroads?

You can profitably Windmill over Mines in any location where food would carry a greater impact that production. For instance, in a Hill-heavy location, Windmilling more and more of the Hills carries greater benefit as your happiness caps expand and you begin to improve the effects of Windmills.

Windmills also considerably offset the Corporation effects of Environmentalism, and in any case, provide a great return for the tile if you're not running Corporations at all. Ultimately, the effect of a Town might be greater, especially under US, but you kind of have to count the number of turns where it might be relevant.

Changing mines to windmills works well for late game commerce cities. I often run a lot of cottage cities (in the late game) with US and levees; they often run out of multiplier buildings to build. they aren't really strong production cities unless the towns are converted to workshops but they do have significant production. Converting a couple of mines to windmills allows an extra specialist and a boost to commerce. These cities will probably be building research or cash anyway so its better to generate the commerce from a windmill.

I sometimes windmill over a few mines before running a Golden Age. If a city is short of food a windmill might get built, but that's unlikely as I tend to run a lot of farms and mines are used along with specialists as my "food-sinks" used to slow rampant growth in a productive way.

As I learned recently, you can do perfectly fine with just Farms and Mines, as far as food and hammers go.

The key point to keep in mind is that Farms and Mines improve in the late game with the Biology and Railroad techs. Throughout most of the game, you don't have these techs yet. During the window of time when you can build windmills, but don't have Biology or Railroad, windmills can give you a temporary edge, if you have State Property.

The good thing about State Property is that not only does it boost your windmills, but also your workshops. But if you have enough hills, you won't need State Property to stay competitive in production.

Did you know mines get +1h from railroads?
Yes, I even mentioned it . . .
Of course, Railroad gives another hammer, but is it enough?
. . . but qualified it with an "... is it enough?" type query.


Good responses. I have often used "virgin" windmills in those filler cities that will never have enough food to support a large pop, but have not actually used it in my calculations for larger cities, especially late-game when my Happy max is usually well above both my health max and current pop.

Food is the key, isnt it. More food means more tiles worked or more specialists run. It fits for many types of economic strategies.

How about cottaging though? I had hoped that you would offer some insight there, Dave. Do you ever cottage over hills late in the game? I have seen it done, madscientist did it in an RPC, and other games I have followed went that route as well. I suppose I can see it IF a few factors are in play, namely, no plan to ever swap out of Emancipation, time for the new cottages to mature to Towns, which, combined with US, makes them very tasty tiles indeed, a Grass hill with a Town on it would be . . . 1F-2H-9C? Something like that? Better than a lame 1F4H hill IMHO, especially in US and FS, more commerce = greater ability to rush-buy under US. It was actually that recent thread that had me thinking about this subject overall, with the power of US in late-game CEs making cottaging hills an attractive alternative.

I suppose that decision lies in the answer to the following question: "How many turns do I have left in this game?".

Mines in production cities, windmills in commerce cities. Simple as that. Cottaged hills are as good as windmills as far as commerce goes.

Bleys:

It's actually, "how many turns do I have before I'm reasonably sure that I'll win the game?"

As long as you've passed the tipping point, it doesn't matter how much more a trajectory estimate will have gotten you. It's win-more at that point. If you can get more commerce now and it WILL ensure your win, you go for the commerce now.

In a commerce city, I consider a grassland hill to be a plains tile. Useful for cottaging if I have surplus food.

Mines in production cities, windmills in commerce cities. Simple as that. Cottaged hills are as good as windmills as far as commerce goes.

I agree with this and would only add that I also add windmills in food-poor production cities.

Mines in production cities, windmills in commerce cities. Simple as that. Cottaged hills are as good as windmills as far as commerce goes.
That helps . . . but in general, I dont specialize every single city as "Production" or "Commerce". The majority of my cities fall somewhere in between, which is probably true of most players in most games. I do specialize a bunch of cities one way or the other, and now that I think about it, I HAVE windmilled some hills in those pure-commerce cities, but in general, I would guess around 40-50% of my empire is "purely specialized", the rest are hybrid.

Should I be absolutely making a firm commitment on my hybrid cities at some point in the game? Is the upgrading in strength of these improvements the "right time" to make a firm decision on hybrids?

Imo the reason you can't completely specialize all cities is that a lot of cities end up on the coast and those cities aren't great at anything imo :lol:

Mines only give hammers, cottages mainly give commerce. Windmills are a good choice for the allround city. I have begun to steer away from those lately.

futurehermit:

Actually, I've got the reverse experience. I also thought once that coastal cities are crap cities, no good for anything, but I've found them to be sleeper Commerce Cities that bloom following Astronomy and opening international trade routes.

Of course, they need a food resource or two, but what good city doesn't? Even a mediocre Coastal City using chain-irrigated grasslands for food can eventually be better in commerce than a mostly Plains City that likewise has no food premiums, just because the Coastal City can get much better trade routes, requires less Worker turns, and more health.

A great Coastal City site is the best city site, IMO. More health, better trade routes, more unit types buildable, etc. I'd give up my Globe Draft City for a Globe Trade City on the coast if I can make a decent Draft City elsewhere.

I think a Desert city is really much, much worse than a Coastal city just because there are so many more dead tiles.

Bleys:

I make a bunch of multipurpose cities as well. I would mine a hill next to a Commerce City if I couldn't get decent production into it any other way. Building the multiplier buildings in the Classical Era is important for these cities, IMO, and if I can get decent hammers to do it, I would choose that route.

Later on, when I have more options and possibly RushBuy, I can Windmill over the Mines whenever I need more food and Mine or Cottage it back over whenever the cost-benefit ratio swings that way.

Mine/Windmill modifications are great for modifying food/hammer input into a city if you've got the Worker turns to spare. After Electricity, I mostly Windmill over Commerce Hills if later, but Cottage them over if I find that I don't need the hammers relatively early.

Actually, I've got the reverse experience. I also thought once that coastal cities are crap cities, no good for anything, but I've found them to be sleeper Commerce Cities that bloom following Astronomy and opening international trade routes.

Of course, they need a food resource or two, but what good city doesn't? Even a mediocre Coastal City using chain-irrigated grasslands for food can eventually be better in commerce than a mostly Plains City that likewise has no food premiums, just because the Coastal City can get much better trade routes, requires less Worker turns, and more health.

A great Coastal City site is the best city site, IMO. More health, better trade routes, more unit types buildable, etc. I'd give up my Globe Draft City for a Globe Trade City on the coast if I can make a decent Draft City elsewhere.
I tend to agree here as well, and once again, contribute my "flip flop" on Coastal cites to the fact that my games go longer, to the point in the games where my Health cap is far more important than my Happy cap. I will ALWAYS build on the coast if there is no fresh water supply for an area. The health and trade bonuses alone make them self-sufficient and able to support larger pops. I have also become a fan of the Colossus because of it, a simple Lighthouse turns every coastal water tile into "instant food neutral commerce tiles", and often take MC off the Oracle to snag this wonder, especially with IND leaders for access to cheap Forges and that all-important Engineer Specialist ability. I like to play my SEs without an early Caste System, and the ability to run 4 specialists (engineer off Forge, 2 Scientists off Library, and a Priest off a Temple, and later, Merchants off Markets), yet keep Slavery for whip-overflow tactics.

On maps with more land, like Pangaea or big continents, I place less focus on Colossus, but those types of land-masses often offer city placements that only have 3 or 4 water tiles, and no "weaker" Ocean tiles at all. Those little "land tile on 4 sides, but 1 corner touching water" cities often end up being commerce monsters, simply because of the Harbor, and later, Custom House.

Later on, when I have more options and possibly RushBuy, I can Windmill over the Mines whenever I need more food and Mine or Cottage it back over whenever the cost-benefit ratio swings that way.
Solid way to look at it. Good response. Later in the game I usually have hoards of workers doing nothing, and often delete a few. I can to start looking for that "cost-benefit" ratio turning point, and squeeze every bit out of every tile as the opportunities to cash in occur.

Thanks to all for the strong input.

SP workshops and watermills are excellent; I rate the latter above fully grown towns (if you have any use for the food at all... always under Representation), even if you also run Free Speech.

With Environmentalism, Windmills are also at least equal to mature towns. I occasionally build them when in State Property as well, when food is scarce (with other economic civics, I can feed my citizens with corporations).

I rate coastal cities quite highly. More health, better trade routes, self-feeding commerce tiles. Those with many ocean tiles aren't quite as hot... but you can often squeeze those in in a way that they don't cost any 'real' land.

Humm come to think of it, i dont remember the last time i used enviro. But with the new getup im using lately, specialists from excess corp food is barely worth the effort. Maybe a corpless or limited corp enviro CE would do the trick...

when I am playing Financial I put windmill on hills next to rivers for the +1C, unless a resource is present. other than that, I just keep the old improvements - hills built by me, or windmills built by my ex-neighbor.

the only other time I put mills on hills is to even out the food so I don't get the -1.

In the late game when my cites are growing to fill out the BFC I often build windmills over mines or mines over windmills to get an even number of food per turn and to cap them at the desired population. If there's a lot of spare health I sometimes put windmills over mines to get an extra specialist but if it's health poor I mine over windmills so the city just works all the tiles, especially if it's a production city with a factory and even an industrial park.

Humm come to think of it, i dont remember the last time i used enviro. But with the new getup im using lately, specialists from excess corp food is barely worth the effort. Maybe a corpless or limited corp enviro CE would do the trick...
Enviromentalism is good when we have a limited supply of :health: .... cottage cities are hard to get with big pop and in certain situations Enviromentalism may be the only way to put the health cap at accectable levels.

Other issue is the :) ... not relevant if you chopped every tree in sight, but if you let a tree or two in the BFC ( for chopping a SS part , for a example ) the :) of them can become important