I've avoided Marathon speed for some time. I gave it a couple of tries but found the opening turns to be incredibly tedious. The techs take too long to research, there's only one unit to move around for the longest time, Workers and other units take forever and a day to build, the delay in border pops is frustrating... and so on.

Recently, however, I realized the solution had been there in the Custom Game screen, staring me in the face the whole time: Advanced Start! Duh. Now I can get another tech, maybe two, a Worker, a couple of units, maybe even an extra citizen, or a Settler, or a border pop--all to make the first 100 or so turns of Marathon more interesting.

I've played a couple of games now with this combination of speed and opening (on large maps, too) and they've been fun. (Especially as Rome--Praets on Marathon rock, it's like they never become obsolete!) However, I've noticed that as with most of the other custom game settings, the AI does not adapt well. Marathon/AS makes an early rush almost inevitable and overpowered; the AI seems to prioritize peaceful techs and builds. I, on the other hand, usually select Bronze Working as an AS tech and, well, you can imagine how things proceed from there. Chop, whip, then... :hammer:

I'm wondering what others' experiences are--do the die-hard Marathoners eschew Advanced Starts and just deal with the tedium of the first 100 turns or so? If you play with AS, do you ever find the AI able to mount a challenge from it? Does Marathon/AS/Large or Huge maps favour the human player enough so that it requires moving up a level to make it challenging?

My experience on Marathon (especially on larger maps) is that barbarians are a much bigger deal than at other game speeds, even if you're not using the "raging" setting. This makes your research choices very important early on -- if you miss a key military tech, Marathon makes you pay for it.

If you're like me, you will also end up building many more workers than normal, simply to speed up the tile improvements and chopping. Also, because your units take so long to produce, you will really feel it when they die. You have a lot of your own real time invested in each unit.

While Marathon does allow the player more opportunities to militarily out-think the AI, there is less margin for error in Marathon games due to the length of time it takes to produce and research. I would simply say it's a different game experience -- not harder, just different from Epic or Normal Speed.

And if you want a challenge, make a Marathon / Large / Pangaea game, decreasing the number of AI civs and running Raging barbs. You will feel like you're playing space invaders.

Marathon is an AI nerf.
Advanced Start is an AI nerf.

Faster speeds favor peaceful/builder strategies. Slow speeds favor warmongers. I don't think the speed setting nerfs the AI as much as it accentuates its natural stupidity.

I've never played with AS, but I imagine each civ will do its usual thing with the extra bonus. Shaka will probably get a bunch of archers. Mansa will get a couple peaceful techs. I'd say it's acceptable practice because even without the bonus the AI would've done the same thing. Does it affect your score though? Because if it starts you at the same date and doesn't modify the score in any way that wouldn't be really accurate...

AI is an idiot on advanced starts (see Sulla's SG with Charlamagne).

marathon makes the game longer and more tedious IMO. your turnsets are already quite spaced out, i'd rather see twice as many games instead of twice as long ones.

unless you want to push onto deity...

Yes I do, the early starts are tedioius, but you can expore the map, have time to plan out cities etc.

First 50 turns can be hit enter fest, especially if your scout/warrior gets eaten by an animal/barb hut pop. Its like any speed of this game it has is benefits/detriments.

Now personally I find Normal speed fast, 3 turns to chop a woods with one workers rediculous. Can't move the workers fast enough to keep up.

Yes it does benefit war, but so do faster speeds, as people have a 'rush to Cav/cannon' attack mind set. Also on Marathon you can't 'wonder whore' as easily, you have to SELECT what you want, and what you'd like.

Also, Bribing won't happen as much, as a tech means something, not a 5 turn throw away gambit for 10 or peace/war. (Major exploit)

Cost go up, so now rush upgrades enmass, you have to build or selectively upgrade. But AI is similar hampered, but not to same extent. (as has been noted)

End of day, it depends on how you ENJOY the game, after all its a past time/ distraction of enjoyment, not a chore/bore. :goodjob:

My experience on Marathon (especially on larger maps) is that barbarians are a much bigger deal than at other game speeds, even if you're not using the "raging" setting. This makes your research choices very important early on -- if you miss a key military tech, Marathon makes you pay for it.

If you're like me, you will also end up building many more workers than normal, simply to speed up the tile improvements and chopping. Also, because your units take so long to produce, you will really feel it when they die. You have a lot of your own real time invested in each unit.

While Marathon does allow the player more opportunities to militarily out-think the AI, there is less margin for error in Marathon games due to the length of time it takes to produce and research. I would simply say it's a different game experience -- not harder, just different from Epic or Normal Speed.

And if you want a challenge, make a Marathon / Large / Pangaea game, decreasing the number of AI civs and running Raging barbs. You will feel like you're playing space invaders.

I once played marathon medieval age advanced start on a terra map. By the time the AI started seriously colonizing the new world, the barbarians there had about 10 size 12 cities and were actually attacking with riflemen, and was actually conquering AI cities. I believe the rate at which barbarian cities pop up and develop is much greater on marathon speed.

Don't turn this thread into another marathon-bashing fest, or "real players play on standard" elitism, thank you very much! :hmm:

I play only on Marathon. Why? Because faster speeds makes the game feel incongruous - for me.

Having units become obsolete on their way from the factory to the frontlines is a deal-breaker for me. (Yes, I would love a civ patch that makes the game enter war mode every time you get involved in a war, where teching and building is slowed by a factor of perhaps 10x, or even just 2x, but unit movement stays as is. We can discuss that elsewhere. And yes, I'm probably not a great war tactician - anyway, if I feel I'm crushing the AI even if I have much fewer units, then the simple remedy is to move up a difficulty notch.) I can only congratulate those of you who like it at Standard speed - that feels much too much like a video game for me... ;)

Anyway - based on my experiences, Sisiutil, you shouldn't be concerned about the slow start. Just move your Scout and press Enter, and you should see those early years fly by! No honest: I would estimate I'm spending perhaps 10-15 minutes tops on that early phase, and that's from a 12 hour incredibly satisfying game! It simply isn't a concern at all, once you get used to it! :)

Regarding 'advanced start' I share your concerns, however. While I suspect the AI's get discounts (supposedly magnifying their head start) they cannot cope with a human player bent for destruction.

So I almost always start from 'scratch'. Actually I find that to be more rewarding in the end.

Not to speak about how much more profound the ALC discussions about where to move the Warrior will be once you play at Marathon! :D

Others have pointed out the tactical and strategic implications of marathon. I'd like to talk about the gameplay experience. I was someone who started playing on normal speed, and the first time I tried marathon it felt like trying to swim through molasses. :lol: I quickly abandoned it and went back to normal. But after playing several shadow games on MadScientist's RPC series I learned to love marathon. Now normal speed, and even epic, seem insanely fast to me! Go figure. :crazyeye:

Sure, the first 100 turns are incredibly boring, but the experience of warfare is much more satisfying - you can actually use that army you built for a good long time. Techs feel like they're actually being researched instead of popped every 5 turns. Ironically, it's the late game that I find most tedious on marathon now. :rolleyes:

I also find marathon's end game the most tedious when I'm going for space race victory (which is the case most of the time). That 30 turn waiting time after the spaceship launch makes me feel like quiting the game every time :mad:

I play almost all my games on Marathon, especially when I'm playing a higher level for the first time, like jumping from Noble to Prince. Marathon is the most fun for me. I enjoy the tedium of the first 100 turns or so, having only a few units to produce. I've gotten so used to it, that I played a normal game yesterday and was surprised at seeing things being built in 2 turns and techs popping up every 3 turns, as well as it being 1400 AD before I even realized it.

I've just gotten acclimatized to Marathon, and the tedium does not bother me. I rather enjoy it.

Advanced Start, however, nerfs the game too much. It's tedious to get BW and build 5 axemen in your capital, then eliminate every other civilization before 500BC.

One of the bonuses of Marathon is that unit movement is not adjusted. If it takes 45 turns to research BW on marathon and only 15 on normal (bare with me, I'm just using these numbers for the sake of comparison) that's 45 turns worth of scouting versus 15 (provided your opening warrior/scout doesn't earn the moniker "bear food.") It certainly gives you an added advantage to finding resources and enemies. I suppose that it could be argued that at higher difficulties, where the AI starts with multiple scouts that the AI's advantage is more pronounced.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I agree that using the Advanced Start to grab BW is overpowered. The first 100 turns of tedium still get to me, though. What I may try next time is lowering the Advanced Start points to give me just enough for Hunting (if needed) and a Scout or two. At least then I'll have something to do besides hitting "Enter" 100 times in a row!

But the turns go by so fast for me. Maybe I just have more patience. The mid/end game gets very intensive though, and I often try to win before that. Late game and marathon is not a good combination.