View Full Version : SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters


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FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 01:28 AM
I want to learn too. What killed the cats? lbs coming from Athens?

If that's the case, what happened to the wounded lbs?

yes, lb's. the axe/cat pair was fine on the forest hill tile 2N. but i moved the axe (only) s to scout and secure the grass hill for the cats behind it. well splitting the units was enough that lb's from athens attacked both. and was a sitting duck 2n of sparta. but that left 1 .6/6 longbow on the tile which i attacked with the next cat at 99%+odds and double promoted it back to 4.8/5. i forgot that cats don't get the defensive bonus :wallbash: so in hindsight I should have just left them on the forest hill tile 2n so you could move them down once kk's units were also there. Or just skipped athens and gone to antium.

I got it.

Some input for the new turnset:

1- Are we in danger of losing the second silver? It reads 42%.

2- We don't need no stone. Can sell it to KK for 4gpt or undo the deal with Asoka, get 2gpt more from him and then 4gpt from KK for the silver.

3- Do we need Marble? Are we building the NE?

4- Fred would pay 10g and WM for peace. Is there any reason to be at war with him? Peace or CF?

5- We have 4 Cats, 2 at home, 2 at Athens. When are we planning to dow JC? When should I start driving our units to him?

6- Any reason not to trade for hitting enter?

7- If possible I'd like not to trade anything to Asoka. His GNP doubles ours. He might get gunpowder units.


1) maybe. the calculation is complicated b/c i guess liz, wash and us are all putting culture on there as long as we're still putting more than whoever is second though we're fine

2) renegotiating the asoka trade has a risk that when the value of stone drops, we will not be able to add gold to it when he cancels and then he may lose the incense ibt. but that may be far enought in the future that we don't have to worry.

3) not for 10 turns. get what you can for it

4) I say get peace so he doesn't send any units up our way, builds a worker for some roads and we can go through berlin (and help w roads if needed) without worrying about an attack.

5) key question. i'd say send the northern cats to jc and maybe the athens ones, if we want to call kk off right now. there is though a jc stack healing about 2E sparta. maybe call off kk let jc suicide that stack on athens (he might take it, but he won't hold it) and then unleash hell.

6) yes you might want to trade for optics from liz so she researches engineering faster - we know she's researching edu now, it will soon become worthless to her. might as well get something for it, and keep paper from asoka so maybe he will go for engineering next.

7) i would trade with him for engineering though. as LC says it is our next tech priority - if we don't have it by lib we might actually want to consider self-researching it. Where is our white knight Mansa bringing gifts of knowledge in his golden caravel?

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 02:28 AM
1/2. Giving silver for gpt asap may be a good idea so later we can cancel it immediately if we lose the 42% silver.
3. We wouldn't need the NE before we switch to Free religion, at the earliest, imo. Maybe not till we finish SciMeth.
4. --- (WM?)
5. I think we are in danger of needlessly losing Athens to JC (or getting its roads pillaged). Sending the 2 axes and 2 cats down to JC is a great idea, but I'd keep one cat up to spy on Athens until spies come from the north. >>>We can and want to have JC DoP with ALex if he's about to capture Athens.<<< Meanwhile, I think we should remind both KK and JC to attack Athens every turn. Maybe that will discourage them from pillaging?
6. ? I dont' understand your question.
7. He and/or Liz will get CHemistry (grens) very soon, I think. Doubt we can stop it. Probably more important to stay Friendly with them so we and KK get it at the same time. By then, it won't matter what they have--KK will have about 10 cities and they'll die a few turns after we DoW them.

4- World Map
6- Get Optics right now

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:38 AM
5) key question. i'd say send the northern cats to jc and maybe the athens ones, if we want to call kk off right now. there is though a jc stack healing about 2E sparta. maybe call off kk let jc suicide that stack on athens (he might take it, but he won't hold it) and then unleash hell.It's extremely useful if KK can get Athens without pillaging roads, because then we have a quick southern route for our units. Very high priority. Please don't call KK off. If anything, call off JC when the time is right.

FiveAces, did you get a peek inside Athens recently?

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:44 AM
4- World Map
6- Get Optics right nowSeems like you might as well trade for Optics while we still have a chance. If we're not going to trade Paper to Asoka yet, then I would trade Liz Educ + 130g for Optics and DoW on Izzy. Both Izzy and Liz have too many units. And remind Liz to attack Madrid each turn.

On the lost cats: this is why I kept emphasizing defenders for our CatStacks. Cats are sitting ducks without defenders. In fact, I would say we don't really want to attack with our cats too much. Only when they can safely get the 5th XP or when they are suiciding a city knowing that KK is ready to capture. Otherwise, let's treat them like gold. We can only make so many.

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 02:45 AM
8.- We don't love whales, do we?


As roads stand now, a new Cat build next turn won't be able to be in Berlin at the end of my turnset. I won't be the one dowing JC.

Erkon
Jun 07, 2008, 03:03 AM
What is the opinion in the team regarding KK against Athens or KK against JC? Do we prefer KK to kill off Alex before we send KK against JC? Or shall we cancel the attack on Alex right away, and focus on JC already now? Am I the only one who consider the second alternative? Sorry for bringing this up, but this has to be decided quickly, else everything we agree on may change :cry:

Erkon
Jun 07, 2008, 03:10 AM
jesusin, you know, I'm not used to the concept that my word is of any value!? You are indeed correct. How about this then: you still have a conditional turn set. If Spain does not beat Sweden, you get two extra turns! Deal? ;)

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 03:12 AM
Pre-Play-Plan Turn 105-115 v4.2


OVERVIEW

Build a unit a turn. Send out a ship. Get Cuzco to KK. Position as many units as close to Cuzco and then Antium as possible.


BUILD QUEUE

2Cat-Galleon-Cat-Choko-Cat-Choko-Cat-Mace-Cat
No: Cat-Caravel-Choko-Cat-Choko-Cat-Mace-Cat-Choko-Cat

UNIT MOVES

All 4 existing Cats move to 1N of Cuzco, immediately and unescorted (some of them using their ability to teleport).

New units go to 1N Cuzco, through Washington. Order of march: Absolute disorder, nobody waits nobody, get there as fast as possible.

After the iron is connected, the workers cottage 1 tile and move towards Cuzco to road. They will be protected somehow.

t106 Axe at home walks out of the city, gets upgraded when iron is connected after travelling 1 tile on road that turn, and travels to 1N of Cuzco.

The 2 Axes in Sparta: the medic moves immediately 2NE into Alex borders before CF. He’ll go to 1N of Cuzco. The other one will stay at Sparta and follow KK units in order to tell us when to suicide.

Caravel: will travel SW to the equator, then W in zigzag (NW-SW).

CITY MM

Move from sheep to PH for 5 turns. Then, depending on the happy situation, stay there or back to sheep.

T106, NO, T107 culture slider to 10%. Move up to 20% if needed and it offers better city output than just allowing unhappy citizens.

New pop will go to the sea, second new pop will go to the 0f4h1c tile or as a scientist, unless KK gets us much more happy resources (cottage instead of mine in that case).


DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS + SEQUENCE

T105: CF Alex, trade Optics+30g from Eliz for Educ., tell JC to attack Athens, break Asoka's Incense for silver deal, trade stone to Asoka for Incense+2gpt, trade silver to KK for 4gpt.

T106: Redeclare Alex, cats+medic move into Cuzco, tell JC to attack Athens, DoP KK->Alex (paper+optics).

T107 declare JC (cats+Axe teleport 1N), tell KK to attack Cuzco, DoW KK->JC (edu), remind KK to attack Cuzco every turn.

Don't dop Fred if it's not needed.
No other trades in this continent until Engi is available


STOP CRITERIA

Someone dows someone.
A city changes hands.
Enemy units around our borders.
Engineering available.
Athens falls.
I feel like suiciding units.
New civ met.


OTHERS

Research: Liberalism, take Astro for free. PP. SciMet.
Civic change: None
Religion change: None

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 03:19 AM
Seems like you might as well trade for Optics while we still have a chance. If we're not going to trade Paper to Asoka yet, then I would trade Liz Educ + 130g for Optics and DoW on Izzy. Both Izzy and Liz have too many units. And remind Liz to attack Madrid each turn.

On the lost cats: this is why I kept emphasizing defenders for our CatStacks. Cats are sitting ducks without defenders. In fact, I would say we don't really want to attack with our cats too much. Only when they can safely get the 5th XP or when they are suiciding a city knowing that KK is ready to capture. Otherwise, let's treat them like gold. We can only make so many.

This got crossposted.

Liz has not so much money, only 30g.
We don't really need HBR, so maybe Liz dowing Isabel is a good idea.

FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 03:21 AM
It's extremely useful if KK can get Athens without pillaging roads, because then we have a quick southern route for our units. Very high priority. Please don't call KK off. If anything, call off JC when the time is right.

FiveAces, did you get a peek inside Athens recently?

yes when I lost the axe. 6 lb's and a phalanx.

EDIT: i killed one next turn, so -1 lb now.

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 03:23 AM
What is the opinion in the team regarding KK against Athens or KK against JC? Do we prefer KK to kill off Alex before we send KK against JC? Or shall we cancel the attack on Alex right away, and focus on JC already now? Am I the only one who consider the second alternative? Sorry for bringing this up, but this has to be decided quickly, else everything we agree on may change :cry:

I am all for taking Athens. If JC were to take Athens, that would be a good time to dow JC.

I have a bad feeling about us taking people to war only to pay them again for peace. Looks like we didn't know what we were doing.

KK units are close to Athens, so do ours, and JC's. Why leave Alex for later?

FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 03:31 AM
Seems like you might as well trade for Optics while we still have a chance. If we're not going to trade Paper to Asoka yet, then I would trade Liz Educ + 130g for Optics and DoW on Izzy. Both Izzy and Liz have too many units. And remind Liz to attack Madrid each turn.

On the lost cats: this is why I kept emphasizing defenders for our CatStacks. Cats are sitting ducks without defenders. In fact, I would say we don't really want to attack with our cats too much. Only when they can safely get the 5th XP or when they are suiciding a city knowing that KK is ready to capture. Otherwise, let's treat them like gold. We can only make so many.

might want to set Liz on alex too if we can. athens will fall quickly for sure before jc gets there and if at worst liz takes it we still preserve the southern route and can get it back before PA if needed

FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 03:36 AM
jesusin - bringing jc was the right move. that jc stack is heavily damaged because it killed about 8 of alex's units. without jc those units attack kk/us and sparta probably doesn't fall.

FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 03:46 AM
jesusin ppp looks pretty good i have a couple comments though:

1) how are you going to prep for the happy effect of losing gold when we do DOW JC?
2) ok with the prechops. see no reason for cottages - those should be workshops instead or the worker should go build some roads somewhere
3) important: if we have Liz DOW Izzy, Izzy has a galley on the w coast below athens. that galley will now have a route to us and if it makes it through english territory (unlikely but possible) it can pillage our seafood
4) keep eye on treasury in case pacifism becomes is too expensive we will need to consider how to manage it
5) Are you going to stop if we meet a new civ?

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 03:57 AM
1) how are you going to prep for the happy effect of losing gold when we do DOW JC?
3) important: if we have Liz DOW Izzy, Izzy has a galley on the w coast below athens. that galley will now have a route to us and if it makes it through english territory (unlikely but possible) it can pillage our seafoodYes! Yes! Yes!

The best thing that can happen to us (to replace JC"s gold) is for Izzy to pillage all of Liz's crabs so we can trade our crabs to Asoka for gold!

Let's hope this happens before Liz kills off Izzy's galley.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 03:59 AM
Liz has not so much money, only 30g.
We don't really need HBR, so maybe Liz dowing Isabel is a good idea.As I recall, the deal Liz was willing to accept is DoW on Izzy and Optics for our Educ + our 130g.Pre-Play-Plan Turn 105-115 v1.0

UNIT MOVES
New units go to Berlin, through Washington and Cuzco.Just move them so they can still re-route through the Grecian lands if someone captures Athens, because that will be faster.

EDIT: And better not to re-negotiate the crabs for gpt deal, so you can monitor the resources screen and trade crabs to Asoka for gold, if it becomes available.

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 04:10 AM
I would now:
trade for optics with Liz
build work boat (whales), explorer (Mansa might be land locked), caravel (or galley->upgrade galleon) at max growth.
don't DoP Fred. Rather prepare to take him out quickly
gift our axes in Sparta to KK. The time of axes is over and we don't walk them back into our land for upgrade.
Don't trade any other techs on our continent. We may get this all cheap on the other continent.
If KK doesn't take Athens in ~5 turns call KK off. History teaches that there isn't much success in long wars.
Edit: revolt to FR soon. Time the one GS for SM by using scientists (increases probability also).

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 04:40 AM
1) how are you going to prep for the happy effect of losing gold when we do DOW JC?


I am hiring artists in order not to grow.
Also by the end of my turnset the whipping unhappiness will be over.


PPP updated

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 04:51 AM
I am hiring artists in order not to grow.
Also by the end of my turnset the whipping unhappiness will be over.Grow! Grow! Grow!

We currently have 14:) and pop11. More pop equals faster research. You know, it's true we won't dominate before PA but the sooner we get to PA the better. We may even want to poprush aqueduct if we lose our clams.

Please no artists. A GS gives us much more flexibility than a GA. I agree with klarius on the GS. We want one more GS, if possible and it should be timed with SciMeth very precisely so that the next great person accumulates GA points (only dilluted by Oxford GS point). Then we can have a GA by PA, no problem.

But you don't need to hire any sci during your turn. Rather grow asap.

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 04:53 AM
I would now:
trade for optics with Liz
1 build work boat (whales), explorer (Mansa might be land locked), caravel (or galley->upgrade galleon) at max growth.
2 don't DoP Fred. Rather prepare to take him out quickly
3 gift our axes in Sparta to KK. The time of axes is over and we don't walk them back into our land for upgrade.
Don't trade any other techs on our continent. We may get this all cheap on the other continent.
If KK doesn't take Athens in ~5 turns call KK off. History teaches that there isn't much success in long wars.
4 Edit: revolt to FR soon. Time the one GS for SM by using scientists (increases probability also).

1.- What are the so important techs that we are getting from Musa? We have just 4 Cats, we are in no position to help KK, I think units are more important now.

2.- I had understood that we were somewhat pressed to attack JC, now that he has wasted his spare units. I am ok with setting KK on Fred after Athens, what does everybody think?

3.- :eek: Our Axes will be chosen as defenders if a lb attacks our Cats.
On a side note, can't we upgrade the Axes in KK's land once in PA?

4.- As I explained in the PP, there are 4 important drawbacks to FR. What do we get with FR?
I think we are still behind militarily and ahead techwise. So I prefer a GA better than a GS.

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 04:57 AM
Grow! Grow! Grow! :)
And use free religion, because otherwise the GS is much too early. :eek:
We want to be in FR before PA anyway to be able to bribe KK into it, so the anarchy turn is no argument.
FR also gives us another happy for our second religion.

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 05:13 AM
1.- What are the so important techs that we are getting from Musa?

Feudalism, guilds, engineering maybe gunpowder w/o further feeding our future enemies. I don't want to trade anymore with Asoka/Liz after optics.


3.- :eek: Our Axes will be chosen as defenders if a lb attacks our Cats.
On a side note, can't we upgrade the Axes in KK's land once in PA?

The axes will be attacked and will die. Two more maces for KK now, may make the difference between taking Athens or not. We need stronger defenders or have to hide under KK's troops.
PA is still a long way to go (especially if you really succeed in making a GA - but that's still low probability even if you waste food on an useless artist). By then the axes will be long dead or have to hide all the time and do nothing.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 05:24 AM
I would now:
trade for optics with Liz
build work boat (whales), explorer (Mansa might be land locked), caravel (or galley->upgrade galleon) at max growth.
don't DoP Fred. Rather prepare to take him out quickly
gift our axes in Sparta to KK. The time of axes is over and we don't walk them back into our land for upgrade.
Don't trade any other techs on our continent. We may get this all cheap on the other continent.
If KK doesn't take Athens in ~5 turns call KK off. History teaches that there isn't much success in long wars.
Edit: revolt to FR soon. Time the one GS for SM by using scientists (increases probability also).
>>>crossposted<<<

Wow! My reasoning is at odds with a bunch of stuff here. :blush: Looks like we need to discuss our rationale.

1. Why not bribe Liz to DoW Izzy? It only costs us 130g and provides a number of benefits I mentioned above.
2. We need neither the :) nor the trade commodity of whales right now. We can build the wb any time we want. Rather later than sooner. Isn't it better to focus on cats/chokos now.
3. Build an explorer? Why not put Grog on the galleon? Isn't it better to focus on cats/chokos now.
4. Why build a caravel? Why waste 110g on upgrading a galley? We can build a galleon in 1 turn. The galleon can attack and carry units, and travels faster than a caravel. By your build schedule, upgrading the galley only gains 2 tiles of travel time anyway. Rather spend 130g on Liz DoW Izzy.
5. I wouldn't plan to fail with Athens. History schmistory. Ours was a cat-less history. We now control our future history. Plan for KK to capture Athens. (IF you don't care who captures Athens, the sic Liz on Alex too. But we want those roads for fast travel.)
6. I really need to know about your 'obsession' with FR. ;) I would much rather stay in Pacifism and accumulate the free GPPs for our next two GPs (1 GS and 1 GA). If we really need FR to trade with the other continent, we'll find that out, but I doubt it. Anyway, the other continent will finance our unit costs. Meanwhile, Hinduism remains very useful for our relations with Asoka, W and Liz. And the pseudo-10% research is only applied to our capital. Why is it so helpful that we can convert KK to FR?

I agree with 'everything' else. :lol:

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 06:16 AM
>>>crossposted<<<

Wow! My reasoning is at odds with a bunch of stuff here. :blush: Looks like we need to discuss our rationale.

1. Why not bribe Liz to DoW Izzy? It only costs us 130g and provides a number of benefits I mentioned above.
2. We need neither the :) nor the trade commodity of whales right now. We can build the wb any time we want. Rather later than sooner. Isn't it better to focus on cats/chokos now.
3. Build an explorer? Why not put Grog on the galleon? Isn't it better to focus on cats/chokos now.
4. Why build a caravel? Why waste 110g on upgrading a galley? We can build a galleon in 1 turn. The galleon can attack and carry units, and travels faster than a caravel. By your build schedule, upgrading the galley only gains 2 tiles of travel time anyway. Rather spend 130g on Liz DoW Izzy.
5. I wouldn't plan to fail with Athens. History schmistory. Ours was a cat-less history. We now control our future history. Plan for KK to capture Athens. (IF you don't care who captures Athens, the sic Liz on Alex too. But we want those roads for fast travel.)
6. I really need to know about your 'obsession' with FR. ;) I would much rather stay in Pacifism and accumulate the free GPPs for our next two GPs (1 GS and 1 GA). If we really need FR to trade with the other continent, we'll find that out, but I doubt it. Anyway, the other continent will finance our unit costs. Meanwhile, Hinduism remains very useful for our relations with Asoka, W and Liz. And the pseudo-10% research is only applied to our capital. Why is it so helpful that we can convert KK to FR?

I agree with 'everything' else. :lol:
I haven't closed out the DoW if I said trade for optics :). But 130g is a quite a bit if we don't get contact to the other continent. I think this war is a waste. Izzy's galley might contain a settler and do nothing at all-
We could set Liz on Alex :eek:, to make sure he dies and hide our cats under her troops.
We cannot build or upgrade the things we need now (choks or maces). More cats w/o defenders don't cut it currently. Rather than building cats, I would build archers and save money to upgrade them on the silver.
Even when leaving out the wb and explorer, I still would like the caravel. Contact with the other continent also provides money for techs, improved trade routes and potentially resource trades.

If we don't gift our axes to KK, I think there is low probability that KK takes Athens soon. The 3 maces under way currently are not enough. The troops in Sparta have to heal first and some will stay for defense.
Edit: KK's troops in Sparta will only heal 15% currently for friendly territory (city is not counting in revolt, our healer is also not counting before PA). Only gifting our healer will make his troops fit again in one turn.
BTW, JC's visible troops also need to heal first. The risk/chance that he takes Athens soon is low also.

Free religion:
If we stay in pacifism, our second next GP will also have quite a bit of GS genes.
FR for KK means every religion gives culture.
We can bribe KK immediately after he converts back to Buddhism, don't need to wait 5 turns.
We don't need additional missionaries in case KK is too successful in capturing bud cities and we still need him to not love buddies.
We also prepare for Hindu wars (no big problem). BTW, that's also an option for the next war, which may come up sooner than you think now. After the optics trade we are free to attack everybody, if we want.
We get a free happy and +10% research.

FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 06:37 AM
I agree with klarius to gift the axes to KK. I'm still thinking about the rest of the points.

Erkon
Jun 07, 2008, 07:07 AM
Do we all agree that KK shall continue the war with Alex until Athens fall? That would save us a zillion posts if we decided now :D

Yes on gift axes to KK
Yes on building units
Yes on building a ship and send a unit the Far Side (Grog/Scout and Galleon/Caravel)
Don't know on worked tiles / specialists
Don't know on trade
Don't know on worker turns

jesusin, could you please briefly present your ideas on the next turn set (after yours) so that we can get an idea how your TS will fit in? Such as: build units so that they can be used against Cuzco?/Rome?/Antium? Plan for DoW against JC around T115?

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 07:14 AM
Looking again on the save, I'm for:
Sparta Axes -> KK.
Optics + DoW Alex from Liz for edu. Athens will just get completely pillaged and will not fall soon otherwise. We cannot approach with cats w/o defenders. KK will rather pillage and not attack before he gets reinforcements. JC has only 1 healthy praetorian near.
Build an archer first to upgrade to chok. Then what you like, though I still would like a nice ship soon.
Don't let any cat walk w/o strong defense where Alex can reach it.

And in any case:
We don't DoP anybody. Never.
That doesn't mean that we cannot call off KK.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 07:19 AM
I agree with klarius to gift the axes to KK. I'm still thinking about the rest of the points.I agree with klarius on:
gifting the axes
building a galleon (and put Grog on the galleon)
building one archer first to upgrade asap on silver to protect the cats
GS for bulbing SciMeth
Edit: Educ to Liz for Optics + DoW on Alex + 30g
I think we should delay as long as possible:

whaling boat
Free Religion
Note on FR: We could revolt to FR and Free Speech right before PA and bribe KK to both, if our warring is close to complete. Then the difference between planting a GA or building an Academy in Cuzco (or wherever) is only 1 turn for getting to 100:culture:.

Note on GS: Who cares if we pop two more GSes (see first note).

>>>crosspost again<<<

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 07:34 AM
Upgrading units:

archer to choko 125g
axe to mace 125g
archer to lb 95g

which is better for defense?

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 08:17 AM
Upgrading units:

archer to choko 125g
axe to mace 125g
archer to lb 95g

which is better for defense?

Best is mace and chok. Get gold from Asoka for paper if necessary.
We are entering the land of a deity AI with plenty attack longbows, cats and swords, remember.

Longbow would only have the hill defense as advantage, Chok always has one more first strike.

BTW, if we should be really interested in getting feudalism soon, there would be the possibility to sell paper cheap to GW. That should get him to friendly also via fair trade.

That might cost us a point with JC for WE trading, unless we convert him to Hindu (do we care?).

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 08:52 AM
Klarius the tricky wants the big war :D.

Wait a turn with the optics trade. Sell paper to GW for 10g to make him friendly.
Next turn DoW JC Liz->JC in the optics trade, if possible, else Alex.
Washington ->JC, Alex and Izzy for edu.
Asoka-> JC for paper.

KK can try a few turns on Alex, if that doesn't work out call him off and set him on JC.

Well, I don't think, I can convince jesusin of such a set up, but it sounds big fun.

Gnejs
Jun 07, 2008, 09:29 AM
Don't bring in Lizzie on Alex. The only result will be that she captures Athens, and we defintely don't want that to happen.

Don't run any stupid Artists, nor any additional scientists. We are getting enough gpp/t to pop our next GSGA on T116 which is the same turn that we can start researching SciMet. Timing is already perfect, don't mess it up.

Do put the next pop on a mine. We will need it to build Cho-Ko-Nu's in one turn.

If KK has a good chance of capturing Athens in the next five turns then let him keep trying. Otherwise we should immediately call him off and start preparing for a dow on JC. And there is no need to wait for our cats to make it down to Berlin before the dow. You saw the pitiful defenses in Antium.

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 09:50 AM
Don't bring in Lizzie on Alex. The only result will be that she captures Athens, and we defintely don't want that to happen.

I rather have Liz take Athens than Alex stay alive and KK suicides tons of units. It is not true that we can help with cats in the next few turns.


We are getting enough gpp/t to pop our next GSGA on T116 which is the same turn that we can start researching SciMet. Timing is already perfect, don't mess it up.

The timing is not perfect. Perfect would be if we get the GS so SM finishes the next turn.


Do put the next pop on a mine. We will need it to build Cho-Ko-Nu's in one turn.

We don't need that if we alternate cats and choks. MM should always be flexible :).


If KK has a good chance of capturing Athens in the next five turns then let him keep trying. Otherwise we should immediately call him off and start preparing for a dow on JC. And there is no need to wait for our cats to make it down to Berlin before the dow. You saw the pitiful defenses in Antium.
I see zero chance that KK can take Athens in 5 turns w/o another AI going in (which may get his chances to 20-30%). There will be still 4-6 longbows and maybe some other stuff. We will not get enough units there to reduce this to a number KK can handle.

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 10:52 AM
LC, this might be the most important question of the game: do we need 2 GPeople to get the culture needed or just one?

I am thinking on NOT bulbing the first GS we get.


If we assign 2 specialist just after SciMet, and we don't build NE, then we will be getting 20 gpp a turn. First GS on t116, second on t141. 2 specialist means we will be at pop13 working only 1 of the 2 PH mines and only 1 sea tile. More pop requires more health and happines and only adds 3 commerce (one more sea tile).

If we don't build an observatory, we will reach PP t115, SM t128, Comm t141.
So we will be waiting for the second GS to reach his destination city for a victory around t144 (if we can conquer our continent by then).

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 11:04 AM
Gifting Axes might be ok. Anyway, what will take more HP out of Alex lb, one Axe in our hands being attacked or one KK Mace attacking the city?


The first pop will go to the sea. The second one to the sea if we want to grow to pop14,
to the mine otherwise.


Ok building 1 ship, if only to collect the money from the other continent. The production might be Cat-Cat-Choko-4Cat-Galleon-Choko (or maybe cat then choko if 2 hammers short)-Cat


There is no way Athens will fall in 5 turns. I am for staying after Athens anyway. The KK units will heal and head for Athens, in 5 turns they will be there together with 4Prats. The city will be at 0% by then if we are covered (maybe we should keep one Axe). We will have 3 Cats there. The city should fall, shouldn't it? (Maybe even we need not to tell KK to go to Athens the first few turns to ve first).


We don't pay to take KK out of a war, after having payed to get him in. Never. On the other side, we, cowards, can run out of a fight and back into it wherever we want.
There are just so many bribes on KK, you know?


A choko waiting for the cats it must protect is as bad as cats waiting for the choko. So I am against upgrading an archer.



If Izzy Galley had a settler we would see it. This is vanilla. As Gnejs, I want Lizz out of the Greek war.


Doesn't cities in revolt really count for health and units support???? :eek:



jesusin, could you please briefly present your ideas on the next turn set (after yours) so that we can get an idea how your TS will fit in? Such as: build units so that they can be used against Cuzco?/Rome?/Antium? Plan for DoW against JC around T115?

My idea is we'll dow JC around t116. The units I build will attack Antiun, the next turnset units will go to Cuzco if there are KK units going there.

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 11:40 AM
We don't pay to take KK out of a war, after having payed to get him in. Never. On the other side, we, cowards, can run out of a fight and back into it wherever we want.


This is just wrong, IMO.
A long drawn out war leads to nothing. And it can lead to a DoP at the most inconvenient moment.
If we make peace we will collect another permanent negative with KK when we redeclare.
There are more bribes than permanent negatives we can afford.
Edit:
And I want KK to have optics, paper and education by the end of your turnset anyway, so he doesn't put beakers in already known techs, but gets the chance to research gunpowder. I will also not be sad if we give liberalism or engineering.

A choko waiting for the cats it must protect is as bad as cats waiting for the choko. So I am against upgrading an archer.

There are already 2 cats waiting now. What you do you want to do with them. A chok can move in first and fortify, the other way round is suicide. But I still also think one chok is not enough. Next to a city with morale support by all the other units :lol: the enemy units are pretty attack happy.

Doesn't cities in revolt really count for health and units support???? :eek:

Well, I looked it up in the SDK. No city healing while in revolt.

Gnejs
Jun 07, 2008, 12:35 PM
I rather have Liz take Athens than Alex stay alive and KK suicides tons of units. It is not true that we can help with cats in the next few turns.

And I'd much rather have KK make peace with Alex than letting LIzzie capture Athens. We don't want to let any of our future enemies grow stronger.

The timing is not perfect. Perfect would be if we get the GS so SM finishes the next turn.

So it comes a couple of turns early. Not much we can do about that, and it won't help to get it even earlier... :)

We don't need that if we alternate cats and choks. MM should always be flexible :).

You sure? In that case focus should be on commerce.

I see zero chance that KK can take Athens in 5 turns w/o another AI going in (which may get his chances to 20-30%). There will be still 4-6 longbows and maybe some other stuff. We will not get enough units there to reduce this to a number KK can handle.

Sounds like way too many turns for awfully poor odds. We get the PA in 31 turns so we can redeclare then. There are 13 other cities to capture and I very much doubt KK will be able to take one every second turn...

Gnejs
Jun 07, 2008, 12:43 PM
LC, this might be the most important question of the game: do we need 2 GPeople to get the culture needed or just one?

If we capture Cuzco soon we need none. Otherwise we might need one, but that one can be emergency farmed later. I am very very very very very strongly against not bulbing the first GS, and also strongly against running any specialists whatsoever right now. :)


If we don't build an observatory, we will reach PP t115, SM t128, Comm t141.
So we will be waiting for the second GS to reach his destination city for a victory around t144 (if we can conquer our continent by then).

I am sure that we could capture 14 cities in 39 turns if we could control KK's units, but I seriously doubt that an AI will come even near that speed.

FiveAces
Jun 07, 2008, 01:23 PM
FiveAces wishlist :)

I want to bring Liz in on Alex.
I do not want to trade any more on our continent (except for KK of course EDIT and optics, and unless we decide to make world war, and except that I don't understand why we want feudalism so maybe klarius could explain that and i might change my mind for that reason too)
I want a galleon to take grog to the other continent.
I want no specialists unless the alternative is hammers we don't need, then i want a sci.
I want to keep our 2 cats at athens there until liz gets there so we can help give kk a chance to take it.
I want the other cats to go to our next target (what this is i'm not sure of)
I don't want to call kk off Athens until he has burned out his units (but if liz/jc can't provide decent help i'd think about it)
I want the next GP to be a GS for sci meth (some luck I know, what I really mean is I don't want us to force a second one by then)
I like klarius's suggestion of world war - i think he is trying to get as much stuff pillaged now so that chemistry is delayed as long as possible. i think that's a good idea.

klarius on your point about getting a -1 w KK against alex for a redeclaration later, that's only possible if liz doesn't capture athens or we are somehow able to bribe kk against him before the PA. i don't think either is likely, so i wouldn't object to DoP for that particular reason. but yeah, right now i don't see any benefit to a DoP with him either.

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 01:25 PM
Sounds like way too many turns for awfully poor odds. We get the PA in 31 turns so we can redeclare then. There are 13 other cities to capture and I very much doubt KK will be able to take one every second turn...

It will be even more doubtful if we keep moving KK units forwards and backwards between Greece and Germany.


I am sure that we could capture 14 cities in 39 turns if we could control KK's units, but I seriously doubt that an AI will come even near that speed.

I think so too. This means no specialists too soon, no NE, no FR and no Observatory.


You sure? In that case focus should be on commerce.

Not at all. Hammers keep being the priority.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 01:37 PM
LC, this might be the most important question of the game: do we need 2 GPeople to get the culture needed or just one?

I am thinking on NOT bulbing the first GS we get.


If we assign 2 specialist just after SciMet, and we don't build NE, then we will be getting 20 gpp a turn. First GS on t116, second on t141. 2 specialist means we will be at pop13 working only 1 of the 2 PH mines and only 1 sea tile. More pop requires more health and happines and only adds 3 commerce (one more sea tile).

If we don't build an observatory, we will reach PP t115, SM t128, Comm t141.
So we will be waiting for the second GS to reach his destination city for a victory around t144 (if we can conquer our continent by then).I think Gnejs is right. We only need one GP, for Cuzco. Bombay's religious culture will explode its borders enough for our purposes. I think we would be very wise to go for a GS and bulb it. Now that we have cats, we want our PA asap. Right now we need units and growth, so your build ratio of some chokos for defense with lots of cats is just right I think. But let's get a axe/archer defender pair out there on the silver waiting for T107 to connect iron, upgrade them and send them down.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:00 PM
Klarius the tricky wants the big war :D.

Wait a turn with the optics trade. Sell paper to GW for 10g to make him friendly.
Next turn DoW JC Liz->JC in the optics trade, if possible, else Alex.
Washington ->JC, Alex and Izzy for edu.
Asoka-> JC for paper.

KK can try a few turns on Alex, if that doesn't work out call him off and set him on JC.

Well, I don't think, I can convince jesusin of such a set up, but it sounds big fun.Maybe we can convince jesusin if we take a more aesthetic (read: subtle) approach. My problem with big war is that it's out of control. It seems that the captured city goes to the nearest AI, probably meaning the one sending the most units. But I also have a problem with Liz, W, and Izzy not having any serious war. Maybe we can find a happy medium? Such as:
* Liz on Alex
* W on Izzy
* Asoka on JC
so our goal is not that they capture cities, but just beat each other up.

Note on Liz->Alex: I also want Alex dead and don't care if Liz gets Athens, but I think if we have our spies there, jesusin could cleverly call off Liz and JC at just the right time and KK cleans up.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:04 PM
This means no specialists too soon, no NE, no FR and no Observatory.I agree with this.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:11 PM
On the Clams
jesusin, keep your eye on the cultural % on teh clams tile. It's at 52% right now and we're putting in 43cpt, Liz, 47cpt. So you might lose the clams during your turnset. The good news, however, is that our Academy culture doubles at the end of your turnset (or did I read somewhere that the Academy culture doesn't double?). Then during the next turnset, both Liz's and our theaters will double, hers, then ours. So we could manipulate the cultural slider just a bit to get the clams back and then we should be able to keep them, without using the slider. If Liz builds more culture, that might give us a second reason to build the NE, later on.

Right now 10%:culture: gives us 50cpt.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:24 PM
Gifting Axes might be ok. Anyway, what will take more HP out of Alex lb, one Axe in our hands being attacked or one KK Mace attacking the city?

Would we want to gift them on teh first turn, or maybe wait a turn or two and try to time it so KK will upgrade them and they'll be ready to roll when his other maces are healed?

Ok building 1 ship, if only to collect the money from the other continent. The production might be Cat-Cat-Choko-4Cat-Galleon-Choko (or maybe cat then choko if 2 hammers short)-Cat

I think we want the galleon asap. Same turn you get Astro, set the build to galleon. I think that will work out, because you'll have and need a few hammers overflow to build it in 1 turn.

klarius
Jun 07, 2008, 03:43 PM
Would we want to gift them on teh first turn, or maybe wait a turn or two and try to time it so KK will upgrade them and they'll be ready to roll when his other maces are healed?

Gifting our healer now has his units healed next turn, so that's already the best timing.

Gnejs
Jun 08, 2008, 12:45 AM
Note on Liz->Alex: I also want Alex dead and don't care if Liz gets Athens, ...

I fear that Liz capturing Athens will delay our victory by at least five turns. Her production will go up 50% and the route to London will take several turns longer.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 01:07 AM
Gifting our healer now has his units healed next turn, so that's already the best timing.

Wouldn't it be better delaying KK for 1 turn, in order to allow JC to get to Athens before KK?




On the clams: There is no way I am wasting 10% of our reserch to save 1 food.

On the global war: There is no way I am stepping into such an out of control situation.

On specialist: ok, ok, there is no way I hire a specialist :lol:

On setting Eliz on Alex: I don't know. Is it really beneficial to bribe her in, weaken Athens with her units and then bribe her out? That's 2 techs and risk of giving her another city...


I'll revisit the PPP next. In the meanwhile, please take a look at
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/pantheon/index.php?table=civ_gotm_awards.php
and
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/pantheon/index.php?table=wotm_awards.php

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 01:27 AM
On setting Eliz on Alex: I don't know. Is it really beneficial to bribe her in, weaken Athens with her units and then bribe her out? That's 2 techs and risk of giving her another city...

It's only half a tech. Here's why - your giving her edu for optics anyway, and immediately thereafter she will start on liberalism, and be about halfway done by the time we've already got it and want to call her off.

Congrats on the GOTM award! :goodjob: What the heck's the cow for?

Erkon
Jun 08, 2008, 01:58 AM
I'll revisit the PPP next. In the meanwhile, please take a look at
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/pantheon/index.php?table=civ_gotm_awards.php
and
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/pantheon/index.php?table=wotm_awards.php

Me thinks we need some kind of recognition. Something like a title. But I fear the peanut gallery will only come up with something unsuitable :lol:

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 02:23 AM
Methinks the peanut gallery should be glad to have the best GOTM Heptathlete and the best WOTM Heptathlete on their team.

What do you want me to do this turnset, mate?



Congrats on the GOTM award! :goodjob: What the heck's the cow for?

It is for the best base-score. In civ4 it makes no sense, really. There you have me, pouring over a won game for 40 hours, trying to avoid victory in order to get to year 2050ADand have the opportunity to get one more pop and one more Future Tech. It was terribly annoying. I wouldn't do it again.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 02:45 AM
What's the order of moves, please ????
Isn't it us-JC-Eliz-KK-Alex-us?

Then the KK units don't protect our cats, since they will move before Alex attacks.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 03:17 AM
New PPP here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258

Please tell me
- what the move order is
- I'm building an Archer t115. Do you want me to send both the Axe and the Archer as Cat-scorts, then build more Archers for city happines and overflow creation later on? Or just send the Axe as in the PPP?
- Are we sure we want Eliz on Alex? Gnejs disagrees and I'm not sure, either.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 03:25 AM
On the clams: There is no way I am wasting 10% of our research to save 1 food.Clams are now +2:health: for us. Look at it this way. For now we have +2 health to spare. At pop12, we'll have one to spare. Okay. Now, until Liz gets religion in Nottingham or builds more culture, the clams tile is getting +4cpt for Liz. So when she gets the clams she's got <= +3 total culture more than us on that tile. At 1ad we get +4:culture: from Academy (no one has corrected me on that, so I'm still assuming it's true). That puts us at even with Liz's current cpt. All we need is +1 total culture at that point and we keep the clams till she has more cpt. So please don't think in absolute terms here. Think in terms of how many turns of 10%:culture: you would have to run to give us that +1:culture:. It may be worth, maybe not.

On setting Eliz on Alex: I don't know. Is it really beneficial to bribe her in, weaken Athens with her units and then bribe her out? That's 2 techs and risk of giving her another city...1. I think we gain more from eliminating Alex than we lose from Liz getting Athens.
2. I think we gain drastically more by getting KK that city than we lose by giving her Lib or whatever for that. (Plus, you giving her the tech means she didn't capture Athens.)
3. In any case, it is good to get Liz to suicide her excess units. Look at how under-defended Antium is now. These AI wars pay big dividends.

What's the order of moves, please ????
Isn't it us-JC-Eliz-KK-Alex-us?

Then the KK units don't protect our cats, since they will move before Alex attacks.Yes, you're right. I'm strongly against us wasting any cats. No girlie suiciding (EDIT: In other words, we only suicide when we have enough suiciders to give that city to KK, not 1 or 2 suiciders uselessly). Those two cats will be sitting ducks. Without protection, they won't even bombard any city defenses. We cannot help with Athens right now. Either keep the axes as defenders or just save our cats for later.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 03:38 AM
Academies doesn't double their culture.

Ok, I'll use 90% culture for one single turn in order to save several turns of +2 food.


Yes, you're right. I'm strongly against us wasting any cats. No girlie suiciding. Those two cats will be sitting ducks. Without protection, they won't even bombard any city defenses. We cannot help with Athens right now. Either keep the axes as defenders or just save our cats for later.

This changes all. My PPP is a castle made of sand.


If we want KK to go for Athens, then we are not gifting our Axes, but putting them together with the Cats (or is it 1 single cat when I press enter, KK units move and outdoors lb attacks?). Without our Axes/Maces and with other 2 civs attacking Athens, there are not so many chances that KK takes Athens.

If we want KK to go for Hamburg, Fred moves before KK so we should gift our Axes immediately and protect our Cats with KK units.

If we want KK against JC, do we want it right now or do we prefer to position our Cats? And we should seek peace with Alex ourselves, in order to use his roads to bring reinforcements to the battlefield. By the way, are we sure KK has a lot of units in his core to attack Antium? I think he is as depleted as Fred.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 03:41 AM
Please tell me
- what the move order is
- I'm building an Archer t115. Do you want me to send both the Axe and the Archer as Cat-scorts, then build more Archers for city happines and overflow creation later on? Or just send the Axe as in the PPP?
- Are we sure we want Eliz on Alex? Gnejs disagrees and I'm not sure, either.MOve order: JC-Liz-KK-Alex, as you wrote it.

I think it is foolhardy not to have 2 defenders on each CatStack. Mace+choko. So the axe and archer should move to the silver tile and upgrade on T107 when you connect the iron. You could trade paper to Asoka for the gold for upgrading or maybe better: ask for gold as a gift. Why not? We won't need favors from him anymore (if he'll give it after gifting us the incense).

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 03:56 AM
LC - academy doesn't double but is 4:culture: from the beginning. your post says double to 4:culture so not sure what you meant. EDIT: ignore, you meant an additional +4 which we don't get.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 04:05 AM
Our Units

I think I may view our units differently than some of the rest of you. To me our units are The Special Guard. It takes us a whole turnset to just build one CatStack. Then half a turnset to move it somewhere. That single CatStack is only useful for one city, without further replacements. Any time we lose one unit for no good reason, we may slow down our victory.We do not want to waste any of our units on fruitless sorties.Discussion
Because we didn't build the Globe, we use units for happiness. Our 2 axes in Sparta can be useful for happiness in Murky if not as defenders. Is gifting them to KK really that significant? Or is it a blind stab in the dark, hoping KK will use them effectively?

In the next 40 turns we will not build more than 40 units. Period. We have 13 more cities for KK to capture. 13 cities * 4suiciders/city = 52 suiciders. Not including defenders and the 4 city bombarders.

In my opinion, we don't have any units to spare. Not the axes in Sparta, not any. Gifting the axes to KK is an extremely clever idea. But to me it provides at best a short-term gain, and at worst, less than nothing because we lose two city garrisons.

On the warfront, I think jesusin should:
1. Let KK, JC, and Liz cremate Athens. We started this war, now, let's get it over with. Maybe use the two axes to protect our cats and spy on Athens and call off JC and Liz, if it's obvious that KK will take it next turn. By the way, calling off Liz is most likely, imo, because JC's new units will arrive in a trickle, LIz's new units will arrive in waves.
2. Build a full-fleged CatStack. Think long-term. Once we have an operational CatStack, with replacements arriving every turn, we can then build a second CatStack. Etc. No more sending a few cats to buttle-battle. Build a professional CatStack.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 04:10 AM
Academies doesn't double their culture.Okay. That means we're going to lose the clams unless we're prepared to run 10%:culture:. I think we should seriously consider running 10%:culture: because it also gives us +2 :), which means two less units for garrison.

I vote yes to 10%:culture:. Yes it slows down our research, but we don't need to start till we lose the clams (or need the :)) and we only need to run it as long as we need it. Right now, I think our highest priority is building a CatStack. Later we can prioritize whatever else.

EDIT: And no archers for city garrison, unless absolutely necessary.

EDIT2: The Nottingham city center tile shows 52% Liz. Not sure how far behind we are, but I sure wouldn't mind auto-razing that wart.

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 04:14 AM
Lesson Learned: We should break each time a city falls. Any city to anyone. That was the crucial mistake in my turnset. I didn't break for discussion after Sparta fell. :blush: We should have started the discussion we're having now 3-4 turns ago.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 04:49 AM
The question is still:
What do we gain by KK staying at war with Alex?
If we want him to take Athens we have to be there with a proper stack while he has units there. Or just cross our fingers that by accident he gets the chance by others suiciding before.
The cats currently in Greece don't count and neither do the axes. They will not make it past Alex' units.
So that means most of jesusin's turn-set just to prepare.
All the time there is the danger that KK suicides wave after wave of his favorite UNITAI_CITY_SUICIDE units.

A proposal:
Set Liz on Alex, which comes for free now in the edu-optics trade.
Make peace with Alex to save the cats if you like.
Next turn call KK off for optics and paper. That should lead to a really nice stack in and around Sparta.
Goal is to DoW JC when we can make sure that KK will take Cuzco. We don't split our forces to go to Antium before.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 05:16 AM
If we want KK to go for Athens, then we are not gifting our Axes, but putting them together with the Cats (or is it 1 single cat when I press enter, KK units move and outdoors lb attacks?). Without our Axes/Maces and with other 2 civs attacking Athens, there are not so many chances that KK takes Athens.

If we want KK to go for Hamburg, Fred moves before KK so we should gift our Axes immediately and protect our Cats with KK units.

If we want KK against JC, do we want it right now or do we prefer to position our Cats? And we should seek peace with Alex ourselves, in order to use his roads to bring reinforcements to the battlefield. By the way, are we sure KK has a lot of units in his core to attack Antium? I think he is as depleted as Fred.

We need to answer this question before writing any more detailled PPP.

LC wants Athens, klarius wants Cuzco. What does the rest of us think?

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 05:31 AM
Just another thing I just noted:
We can make the cats and axes count :D.
Alex would pay for peace, so he would accept cease fire.
If you move the axes 2 NE, then CF Alex, axes and cats should jump into Cuzco's culture.

It's then still the question for what we make them count, Athens or Cuzco.

Edit:
BTW, don't plan to be able to use Alex' roads. We will not get OB with him. :crazyeye:

Edit2:
OK, we might after we declare on JC, if Alex is still at war with JC and the RNG lets him forget that we canceled OB.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 06:15 AM
Edit: BTW, don't plan to be able to use Alex' roads. We will not get OB with him. :crazyeye:

Edit2:
OK, we might after we declare on JC, if Alex is still at war with JC and the RNG lets him forget that we canceled OB.We don't need OBs if Alex is dead. That's why I like KK + JC + Liz on Alex and I don't care if Liz gets Athens. Liz will succomb soon enough, with 2 cities, 3 cities, or 4.

We want Alex dead so KK doesn't need to DoW him again. We want Alex dead so we can give those techs to KK for something else.

That said, I've always been in favor of Cuzco ASAP...

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 06:20 AM
We don't need OBs if Alex is dead. That's why I like KK + JC + Liz on Alex and I don't care if Liz gets Athens. Liz will succomb soon enough, with 2 cities, 3 cities, or 4.


That still doesn't answer the question why KK should suicide his units first.
The OB discussion was pointed at jesusin, who had "use Alex' roads in his post.

Edit:
How about:
Bring Liz in. Make the axe move 2 NE. CF Alex.
Next turn our now again combined axe cat stack is in Cuzco.
Think about it again.

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 06:33 AM
I don't see that KK can get in position for Cuzco that quickly. I feel that we will need jesusin's mace/coku/cat stack to be effective there. So it seems to me that we should cease fire with alex to ensure the safety of the cat and get the free move. And call Liz in. Then redeclare on Alex (do we get a -1 with kk for this?) and hope athens falls to kk and that he doesn't suicide too many units in the process. Our cats/axes can maybe help just enough to throw it to kk. It should take 4-5 turns for athens to fall to someone? Then that gives kk at least 5-6 turns to recover while we move the jesusin's newly built stack towards cuzco for DOW on JC sometime early in the next turnset.

EDIT: pretty much crossposted with klarius's edit.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 06:46 AM
I don't see that KK can get in position for Cuzco that quickly.
If we call KK off Alex, KK will have 6 maces, spear, cat, crossbow and longbow in and around Sparta. It takes 2-3 moves to be adjacent to Cuzco.
North of Cuzco is a tile in American culture. JC doesn't have OB with George so cannot attack on this tile. And he will not sign with his worst enemy :D.

In fact we could still gift the axes :eek: for 2 more KK maces and have only cats on that tile. We could even declare with our cats in Cuzco as they will jump to just this tile.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 06:53 AM
JC doesn't have OB with George so cannot attack on this tile. And he will not sign with his worst enemy :D.

In fact we could still gift the axes :eek: for 2 more KK maces and have only cats on that tile. We could even declare with our cats in Cuzco as they will jump to just this tile.Okay, now you are cheating, klarius. That's more like it. :D

I'm liking this Cuzco discussion, but before we abandon Alex:
1. Are we now assuming that killing Alex off after PA doesn't slow things down considerably?
2. Are we sure that KK's forces won't get to Athens after Liz's and/or JC's first waves have already come and beaten Alecks down?

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 06:53 AM
If we call KK off Alex, KK will have 6 maces, spear, cat, crossbow and longbow in and around Sparta. It takes 2-3 moves to be adjacent to Cuzco.
North of Cuzco is a tile in American culture. JC doesn't have OB with George so cannot attack on this tile. And he will not sign with his worst enemy :D.

In fact we could still gift the axes :eek: for 2 more KK maces and have only cats on that tile. We could even declare with our cats in Cuzco as they will jump to just this tile.

Well that's a pretty strong argument that we can deliver Cuzco to KK with just the units we have now. I think that beats the crapshoot we have with Athens. This has my vote. I would still bring in Liz against Alex though.

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 06:59 AM
Okay, now you are cheating, klarius. That's more like it. :D

I'm liking this Cuzco discussion, but before we abandon Alex:
1. Are we now assuming that killing Alex off after PA doesn't slow things down considerably?
2. Are we sure that KK's forces won't get to Athens after Liz's and/or JC's first waves have already come and beaten Alecks down?

1) Not an issue if liz or jc get the city, which will happen if we call kk off.
2) I'm not thinking of it this way. I'm thinking of it as a decision between a >90% chance of getting kk a city and a <50% chance of getting him one (estimates, of course). And since it is certain that KK having Athens isn't twice as good as him having Cuzco, I'm going with the expected value of Cuzco.

PLUS we are guaranteed not to lose any units (unless we choose to suicide) so it fits your preference perfectly

klarius - just one thing, you are sure JC will not be allowed to attack the tile if it has multiple units on it? Entering after victory is not an issue in this case.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 07:13 AM
If we call KK off Alex, KK will have 6 maces, spear, cat, crossbow and longbow in and around Sparta. It takes 2-3 moves to be adjacent to Cuzco.
North of Cuzco is a tile in American culture. JC doesn't have OB with George so cannot attack on this tile. And he will not sign with his worst enemy :D.

Edit:
How about:
Bring Liz in. Make the axe move 2 NE. CF Alex.
Next turn our now again combined axe cat stack is in Cuzco.
Think about it again.Okay, I'm convinced by klarius' and FvieAces' points. I agree with this. Liz may take Athens, but she'll probably kill off her excess units in the process.

SOunds like an excellent plan, all things considered.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 07:13 AM
2. Are we sure that KK's forces won't get to Athens after Liz's and/or JC's first waves have already come and beaten Alecks down?
What do you mean by this. Sure there is a chance, if we let him continue on Alex. But it will for sure cost him quite a few units and there is no guarantee that it gets him anything.
His first 2 maces will probably suicide before either Liz or JC has units at Athens.
After 4-5 turns there will be a mixed bunch of KK, JC and Liz units around Athens. No way to tell who will get Athens.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 07:25 AM
klarius - just one thing, you are sure JC will not be allowed to attack the tile if it has multiple units on it? Entering after victory is not an issue in this case.
Yes, I'm sure.

Gnejs
Jun 08, 2008, 07:44 AM
I'll revisit the PPP next. In the meanwhile, please take a look at
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/pantheon/index.php?table=civ_gotm_awards.php
and
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/pantheon/index.php?table=wotm_awards.php

Oh my, how modest of you! My heartfelt congratulations to the both of you. :goodjob: Oh no, they will both become totally unbearable now. Erkon in particular...

Gnejs
Jun 08, 2008, 07:51 AM
I probably don't need to tell it to anyone, but I am totally for a cease-fire with Alex and dow on JC instead. :)

Don't set Liz on Alex. She will take Athens in 4-5 turns and then build many times more units than she loses before we are in a position to dow her.

Alex is extremely useful. Alive. We can set anyone on him (except Isa) just prior to us dowing them. Think of it. When we have captured Rome and Spain, and are about to dow on Asoka, wouldn't it be great to lure out Asokas 20+ spare Grenadiers/Riflemen on a journey across the continent first? Same goes for Washington/Lizzie. If Alex is gone there is no one that we can set the hindus on anymore.

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 08:11 AM
I probably don't need to tell it to anyone, but I am totally for a cease-fire with Alex and dow on JC instead. :)

Don't set Liz on Alex. She will take Athens in 4-5 turns and then build many times more units than she loses before we are in a position to dow her.

Alex is extremely useful. Alive. We can set anyone on him (except Isa) just prior to us dowing them. Think of it. When we have captured Rome and Spain, and are about to dow on Asoka, wouldn't it be great to lure out Asokas 20+ spare Grenadiers/Riflemen on a journey across the continent first? Same goes for Washington/Lizzie. If Alex is gone there is no one that we can set the hindus on anymore.

Liz doesn't really build a lot of units. She seems to like buildings and ships. Speaking of, let us remember that before we DOW Liz we need to have some ship defenses for our seafood.

Alex as a decoy is difficult to pull off. First, we have to stay friendly with the hindu's, which will be hard when everybody's in FR and we have no more fair trade bonus. second, when everybody starts going into FR they won't hate him as much anymore and that might mean we can't bribe them anyway. third, we have to bribe them with an expensive tech which will probably be military since that's all we're going to have kk research after the PA and we might not want to do that. like for instance if chemistry is all we have on Asoka. fourth alex is going to build a bunch of units, which may all be inferior, but might give him enough power so that somebody like liz or wash can't be bribed to DOW him.

Gnejs
Jun 08, 2008, 08:23 AM
I am sure Asoka would dow Alex for Astronomy, and maybe that is enough motivation to keep Alex alive.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 08:24 AM
I probably don't need to tell it to anyone, but I am totally for a cease-fire with Alex and dow on JC instead. :)



If you just want to save Alex and stay at war with him (pretty useless, IMO). We can just immediately re-declare after CF and before pulling KK off.

Gnejs
Jun 08, 2008, 08:43 AM
If you just want to save Alex and stay at war with him (pretty useless, IMO). We can just immediately re-declare after CF and before pulling KK off.

Yes, if it is needed. How many negmods can we afford towards KK?

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 08:54 AM
Yes, if it is needed. How many negmods can we afford towards KK?

klarius's alternative doesn't result in a negmod because we redeclare immediately after the CF before we ask KK to make peace. So he's not a friend when we DOW Alex.

Gnejs
Jun 08, 2008, 09:00 AM
klarius's alternative doesn't result in a negmod because we redeclare immediately after the CF before we ask KK to make peace. So he's not a friend when we DOW Alex.

I know. :) But I am curious if we must redeclare immediately or if we could save it for later.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 09:31 AM
Alex as a decoy is difficult to pull off. First, we have to stay friendly with the hindu's.Asoka will accept a DoW bribe at Pleased. Liz we can sic on someone else to get some warring pluspoints.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 11:26 AM
Yes, if it is needed. How many negmods can we afford towards KK?
Difficult to say. I don't know what the situation will be then. Currently we have +3 to spare. But that's with common Hinduism, which might be soon away. OTOH there are still favorite civic points to come.
When he revolts back to Buddhism (which he probably will do soon), he might want us to stop trading with GW at a time we don't want, so we should keep a reserve.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 10:47 PM
JC and Cuzco are a good option.

Should I remember KK to attack Cuzco or not? What if his Sparta units start marching towards Antium and leave us alone in Cuzco?

Should I get HBR from Liz, or set her on Alex, or set her on Spain? The Spain war should be long and fruitless for both of them.

FiveAces
Jun 08, 2008, 11:08 PM
well IIRC klarius said they will jump into cuzco's culture when he DoP's Alex. So they should go for Cuzco straght off, but it can't hurt to remind him every turn.

Liz i'm not sure. I don't see any need for HBR. Everybody here has it, everybody on the other continent will have it, and there's no horses. There are arguments for both Alex and Izzy. One good thing about Izzy is we're already at war, so Liz can't ask us to join in when we don't want to. A bad thing is Izzy will prob send units through JC territory, which might interfere with our efforts, especially roading. OTOH, she can do that now anyway (though she doesn't seem to want to) and Liz might provide some cover.

Ok now this occurred to me: Liz might actually be able to take Madrid :eek: If she does, her empire is split and she holds the next target, but it's a pain because we have 2 fronts and kk can only help with one plus Liz has much better units.

So because of that I think I prefer Alex, although if everybody's pretty confident Madrid won't fall I won't object to Izzy.

jesusin
Jun 08, 2008, 11:15 PM
well IIRC klarius said they will jump into cuzco's culture when he DoP's Alex. So they should go for Cuzco straght off, but it can't hurt to remind him every turn.


I don't think klarius said that the stack KK has inside Sparta will jump anywhere (?).

The problem of reminding him is this: will his units next to Antium head for Cuzco instead of attacking Antium?


EDIT: our units inside Alex' borders will jump towards Cuzco. KK units inside Alex' borders will jump towards Sparta.

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 11:16 PM
Our cats will jump into Cuzco's culture.
Edit: Our axes also if they move 2 NE now.
KK's units will jump towards Sparta. And others are still in Sparta.
Telling him to go to Cuzco is probably needed.
But there is another problem. That's JC's units on the move from Antium to Athens.
That may distract the attackers.

Antium and Rome will attract units anyway.

Edit:
We should keep one of our axes as scout in Sparta. Also the DoW KK->JC should probably best be with Sparta out of resistance.

Edit2:
OTOH, we shouldn't wait too long. KK could convert back to Buddhism.

LowtherCastle
Jun 08, 2008, 11:29 PM
I have one concern about KK on JC. I think KK is vulnerable at Beshabalik. It's not on a hill, not guarded by a river and probably producing very few units. Meanwhile, Rome is producing a lot of hammers.

Is there any way we could send JC against Izzy first? (This is a good reason to have Alex gone--so we can bribe JC on Izzy.)

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 11:39 PM
Should I get HBR from Liz, or set her on Alex, or set her on Spain? The Spain war should be long and fruitless for both of them.
Liz->Izzy would cost money on top of the optics trade. I don't see that it does buy us anything.

Liz-> Alex is hated by Gnejs. I still think it is a good idea.

And there is still the question, if we want to do anything with GW by cheap selling him paper -> friendly. Not JC obviously if we want to use his culture as shield for our units (though his longbows would probably also do).

klarius
Jun 08, 2008, 11:57 PM
Is there any way we could send JC against Izzy first? (This is a good reason to have Alex gone--so we can bribe JC on Izzy.)
But Alex is not gone anytime soon. Don't believe Gnejs. Liz will not kill him in a breeze.
Also Alex gone, makes the units around Athens, Cuzco free to defend or go for Sparta.

Beshbalik is not on a hill, but KK having longbows now, should mean he can at least defend his cities. Nothing is sure with the AI tactics (or lack of), though.

Gnejs
Jun 09, 2008, 12:35 AM
Liz->Izzy would cost money on top of the optics trade. I don't see that it does buy us anything.

Liz-> Alex is hated by Gnejs. I still think it is a good idea.

And there is still the question, if we want to do anything with GW by cheap selling him paper -> friendly. Not JC obviously if we want to use his culture as shield for our units (though his longbows would probably also do).

Why the obsession with killing Alex? Why now, and not later? And why Lizzie, why not set Asoka on him instead?

Btw, we might be able to set Lizzie and Asoka on some heathens on the other continent. Astronomy would have to be part of the bribe, but maybe it will still be too expensive.

Mītiu Ioan
Jun 09, 2008, 12:46 AM
An update from me, off-topic but may explain my lack of activity from that game - I was to a job interview for a better position and received ( after few quite stresfull days ... :p ) an offer. Seems that from beginning of July I'll wrote/play from Copenhagen ... ;)

Now I'll start to read the ( hundreds ) of missing posts ... :)

klarius
Jun 09, 2008, 01:06 AM
Btw, we might be able to set Lizzie and Asoka on some heathens on the other continent. Astronomy would have to be part of the bribe, but maybe it will still be too expensive.
It's not more expensive than any other non land target, but the gain is doubtful. It would take quite some time to build a fleet to transport units away. One may end up having to attack a city with a large stack waiting for transport.

klarius
Jun 09, 2008, 01:48 AM
Another small problem :crazyeye::
We converted KK T97. According to my digging into the SDK that means he will convert back to Buddhism IBT T107-108. That might mean he goes friendly with JC and doesn't DoW. Timing is again very tight :eek:.
Let's try a sequence:
T105: CF Alex, trade Liz
T106: Redeclare Alex, cats move into Cuzco, declare JC (cats teleport 1N), tell KK to attack Cuzco, DoP KK->Alex (paper+optics).
T107 DoW KK->JC (edu)

That doesn't tell how we handle everybody else. We still may want Asoka's money (or a DoW ?) and Washington's attitude for the now pretty useless paper.

LowtherCastle
Jun 09, 2008, 02:02 AM
Another small problem :crazyeye::
We converted KK T97. According to my digging into the SDK that means he will convert back to Buddhism IBT T107-108. That might mean he goes friendly with JC and doesn't DoW. Timing is again very tight :eek:.
Let's try a sequence:
T105: CF Alex, trade Liz
T106: Redeclare Alex, cats move into Cuzco, declare JC (cats teleport 1N), tell KK to attack Cuzco, DoP KK->Alex (paper+optics).
T107 DoW KK->JC (edu)

That doesn't tell how we handle everybody else. We still may want Asoka's money (or a DoW ?) and Washington's attitude for the now pretty useless paper.Just in case it helps, how about adding:

T106: Redeclare Alex, cats move into Cuzco, tell JC to attack Athens, declare JC (cats teleport 1N), tell KK to attack Cuzco, DoP KK->Alex (paper+optics).

LowtherCastle
Jun 09, 2008, 05:43 AM
Teams with power graphs comparable to ours:
Misfits
XTeam

Inconclusive:
CRC
Gypsy Kings

And before you laugh off the Misfits, notice that the single person submitting a victory in GOTM15 Inca Deity, was the new Misfits team member, Thorrez... :eek: (Oh yeah, and did I mention he played the Challenger version?)

FiveAces
Jun 09, 2008, 06:31 AM
Unfortunately we can't see the most important power graph, which is the one of each team's target PA partner.

jesusin
Jun 09, 2008, 07:24 AM
Let's try a sequence:
T105: CF Alex, trade Liz
T106: Redeclare Alex, cats move into Cuzco, declare JC (cats teleport 1N), tell KK to attack Cuzco, DoP KK->Alex (paper+optics).
T107 DoW KK->JC (edu)


Why redeclaring on Alex?

How to tell KK to attack Cuzco before he dows JC?

Why not KK DoP Alex and KK dow JC in the same turn?

jesusin
Jun 09, 2008, 07:24 AM
An update from me, off-topic but may explain my lack of activity from that game - I was to a job interview for a better position and received ( after few quite stresfull days ... :p ) an offer. Seems that from beginning of July I'll wrote/play from Copenhagen ... ;)

Now I'll start to read the ( hundreds ) of missing posts ... :)

Congratulations!

klarius
Jun 09, 2008, 07:40 AM
Why redeclaring on Alex?
Maybe we want KK to finish off Alex in 10-20 turns. The war has taken away years of peace, common war and some OB turns, so KK shouldn't be friendly, but he will be pleased and give us a negative, when we declare.


How to tell KK to attack Cuzco before he dows JC?

Just do it. :) It's only necessary that we are at war with JC for that. Target city is not limited to being at war with the civ. He might already march some units in the direction.


Why not KK DoP Alex and KK dow JC in the same turn?
That's a question of bribes. DoP Alex is pretty expensive :eek:. We can do it with paper and money, but we shouldn't just waste too much money. So, I had paper+optics for DoP and edu for DoW. Edu can only be used one turn after paper. As I want KK anyway to have these techs, before we need any other trade with him, that's no waste.

LowtherCastle
Jun 09, 2008, 08:32 AM
Unfortunately we can't see the most important power graph, which is the one of each team's target PA partner.True. Well, it appears that XTeam followed our research path, while Misfits went for the Pyramids. So Misfits surely didn't start warring as soon as we did. No other team that has played this far seems to have researched as fast as this group of three teams. A lot of that power spike comes from techs and HE, at least in our case. Misfits seems to have built even more units than us. That's what :scan:.

FiveAces
Jun 09, 2008, 10:37 PM
Wow no posts in the thread last night. That's got to be a record. So jesusin, when you gonna play? :)

jesusin
Jun 10, 2008, 12:45 AM
Wow no posts in the thread last night. That's got to be a record. So jesusin, when you gonna play? :)

Yeah, too much making/doing.

It's a busy week. My brother's wedding. I've tried on all of my suits and none of them fits. Strange. I must have grown horizontally, somehow. I'll have a big lunch today in order to have time to think about it during the meal...:rolleyes:

I'll try to sneak the PPP in today or tomorrow. I'll play on Saturday morning, if that's ok with all of you.

FiveAces
Jun 10, 2008, 02:08 AM
True. Well, it appears that XTeam followed our research path, while Misfits went for the Pyramids. So Misfits surely didn't start warring as soon as we did. No other team that has played this far seems to have researched as fast as this group of three teams. A lot of that power spike comes from techs and HE, at least in our case. Misfits seems to have built even more units than us. That's what :scan:.

Misfits might have been building warriors to gift for an instant upgrade to maces. They could be doing that 1/turn without HE. Replace our scout/missionaries with 6-8 warriors and that could make the difference I guess. Though if that's the case I wonder why they haven't gifted them already.

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 02:36 AM
Another small problem :crazyeye::
We converted KK T97. According to my digging into the SDK that means he will convert back to Buddhism IBT T107-108. That might mean he goes friendly with JC and doesn't DoW. Timing is again very tight :eek:.
Let's try a sequence:
T105: CF Alex, trade Liz
T106: Redeclare Alex, cats move into Cuzco, declare JC (cats teleport 1N), tell KK to attack Cuzco, DoP KK->Alex (paper+optics).
T107 DoW KK->JC (edu)In my book, this is a 1st-Order Power Move but losing JC's gold causes happiness problems and we definitely want to keep growing. I propose this solution:
Teleport/send the 2 Sparta axes to Murky to garrison. Eventually, they can be upgraded to CatStack2 and CatStack3 mace/gren defenders, if needed.
Build an archer to be upgraded as a CatStack choko defender on the silver on T107. (We'll need defenders when we move the CatStack to Antium, hopefully very soon.)
On T106 send the 4XP axe garrison to the silver for upgrading on T107.
Use the cultural slider as needed for happiness and to keep our clams. (Building cats is higher priority than building garrisons for 100% research slider.)
Assemble CatStack1 at Cuzco 1N, where the extra worker can also go road.
Also: Send Grog on an ASAP galleon to the New World.
Unresolved problem: When to suicide our cats on Cuzco if KK puts his units at Cuzco 1S?

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 03:00 AM
Pre-Play-Plan Turn 105-115 v3.0 After the iron is connected, 1 worker moves S to road the nobody tiles S of Cuzco, the other stays and pre-chops.

CITY MM
New pop will go to the sea, second new pop will go to the 0f4h1c tile.Additional comments in preparation for your next PPP.

1. I liked your previous idea of having one of the workers build 1 more cottage. At pop13, we'll be able to work it and after 10 turns it will provide at least +13bpt for researching Communism. Meanwhile, we keep growing. Pre-chopping and workshops can follow.
2. The second new pop only needs to work the 0f4h1c tile when building chokos, right? The faster we grow the better, imo. We don't need to worry about overpopulation. Pop is Power in CIV.
3. When we meet new AIs, better to not give them our maps until we circumnavigate, imo. We can buy their maps to possibly circumnavigate faster.

klarius
Jun 10, 2008, 03:33 AM
Unresolved problem: When to suicide our cats on Cuzco if KK puts his units at Cuzco 1S?
Well, as I mentioned earlier: keep one axe around Sparta for now and follow his stack (if he ever moves :crazyeye:).

If he would have attack units (but it looks more like mainly city attack), it could even be best to attack before he is adjacent, as the cheating AI knows when the defenses are weak w/o having visibility and attack units love to go for weakly defended cities (ignoring the target city), if they are near.
For city attack units that's not important, they will anyway move to the target city, preferred in groups of three. Or don't move at all :cry:, by various conditions.

There is also the risk (1/8) that KK sets a new target city before he moves. That would then probably be Rome. Or he can reset the area target, then the units do their own target city decisions.

FiveAces
Jun 10, 2008, 03:37 AM
Looks like XTeam got their PA around t135.

I'm ok with 1 cottage. LC if we're going to grow as much as possible we will prob need Globe at some point, prob after the GS (hopefully) sci meth. Once emancipation kicks in on the other continent it will become a problem unless we're done by then (dare I hope?).

LC - If we move our medic to Murky for garrison, should we make another medic at the first oppurtunity?

klarius
Jun 10, 2008, 03:49 AM
I don't like the idea to move our axes all the way back to Murky. Better keep the current axe there. Or keep another new unit there.
Edit: Instead of another new unit one could go back to the explorer idea and keep grog at home.
We don't need a stack defender until we are through Cuzco. I would still gift the shock axe (praetorian killer as mace) to KK and keep the healer to meet our troops south of Cuzco and providing intelligence up to then.

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 04:47 AM
I don't like the idea to move our axes all the way back to Murky. Better keep the current axe there. Or keep another new unit there.
Edit: Instead of another new unit one could go back to the explorer idea and keep grog at home.
We don't need a stack defender until we are through Cuzco. I would still gift the shock axe (praetorian killer as mace) to KK and keep the healer to meet our troops south of Cuzco and providing intelligence up to then.I'm okay on having a spy/axe escort KK's stack to Cuzco, if we can keep it alive and it will provide us much-needed info on when to suicide our cats. Under our current circumstances, I still think it's a waste to gift axes to KK. And I would still send the spy/axe to Murky when he's no longer needed as a spy.

I think our priorities should be:
1. Build cats.
2. Build chokos.
3. Build cats/chokos.

An explorer costs us a cat just like building a garrison unit, so it delays all three priorities and is useless after meeting any landlocked AIs. Grog can eventually return and garrison or be upgraded.
KK has 5 cities, so gifting him a unit probably benefits his productivity less than 50% for one turn and costs us 100% of our productivity for that turn. As he captures more cities, gifting him a unit has progressively less effect on his productivity. As you point out, there's even a 1/8 chance he'll take our unit and suicide it on Rome, before we can go help. :crazyeye:
You and I have both mentioned we don't need defenders till Antium, so we have time to send the axes back to Murky. They even have time to go back, get upgraded, and arrive at Rome before our CatStack gets there, if we want that. They're moving while the CatStack is moving and warring. Meanwhile, they can free up our production to build cats and chokos now, when our priorities #1-#25,000,000 are building cats and chokos and nothing else, not even defenders, preferably.

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 04:53 AM
LC - If we move our medic to Murky for garrison, should we make another medic at the first oppurtunity?If any of our cats get their 5XP, I would definitely promote them to barrage II accuracy. We need 8 accuracy cats for 2 CatStacks. They don't need to be healed to function effectively. (Mine rarely ever have a chance to heal--just stay at 0.4/5 or whatever it is. That's why the defenders are crucial.) This is also why I agree with jesusin that we should build mostly cats now, rather than chokos.

I don't really know if we need a medic, but we could promote the first choko suicider that survives to medic.

FiveAces
Jun 10, 2008, 05:22 AM
I'm for sending grog to the other continent, gifting the melee axe now, scouting with the medic, then upgrading the medic to be the mace stack defender, and using the slider until we need to chop/build Globe as opposed to building more garrison units instead of stack cats/choku's.

FiveAces
Jun 10, 2008, 05:30 AM
If any of our cats get their 5XP, I would definitely promote them to barrage II. We need 8 Barrage II cats for 2 CatStacks. They don't need to be healed to function effectively. (Mine rarely ever have a chance to heal--just stay at 0.4/5 or whatever it is. That's why the defenders are crucial.) This is also why I agree with jesusin that we should build mostly cats now, rather than chokos.

I don't really know if we need a medic, but we could promote the first choko suicider that survives to medic.

Barrage II? You sure you don't mean Accuracy?

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 05:40 AM
Barrage II? You sure you don't mean Accuracy?Yes, accuracy. Thanks.

FiveAces
Jun 10, 2008, 05:52 AM
Yes, accuracy. Thanks.

And we're giving them CRI as their first promotion, right? Not Barrage/Collateral or whatever it's called?

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 06:09 AM
And we're giving them CRI as their first promotion, right? Not Barrage/Collateral or whatever it's called?My tests show that CRI is slightly better than both barrage and chokos against cities with four or more LBM defenders. Chokos do, however, occasionally take out an lbm.

FiveAces
Jun 10, 2008, 06:42 AM
My tests show that CRI is slightly better than both barrage and chokos against cities with four or more LBM defenders. Chokos do, however, occasionally take out an lbm.

Plus CRI gives the cat a better chance at winning, which it needs to do once to get 5XP for accuracy.

klarius
Jun 10, 2008, 07:29 AM
Another idea :).
Send a worker with the galleon. We don't need any improvemnents urgently after the iron and it's doubtful if we can build roads soon.

jesusin
Jun 10, 2008, 07:40 AM
Another idea :).
Send a worker with the galleon. We don't need any improvemnents urgently after the iron and it's doubtful if we can build roads soon.

Bravisismo!

Will LC allow us not to start roading immediately?

klarius
Jun 10, 2008, 07:40 AM
My tests show that CRI is slightly better than both barrage and chokos against cities with four or more LBM defenders. Chokos do, however, occasionally take out an lbm.
Choks have one more advantage late in a suicide sequence (where they anyway get good chances to win). They can damage units down to 40% by collateral while cats do it only to 50%. OTOH hand they have a disadvantage early against a large garrisson. Their collateral influences one less defender.

Plus CRI gives the cat a better chance at winning, which it needs to do once to get 5XP for accuracy.
Well that's still not much chance to win (but every little helps :)). Most should get their 5th point by a retreat.
But barrage does so little and the chance to wound the top defender more is very important, so CR1 is the way to go. Only if there is a need to attack a stack in the open one should consider barrage.

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 08:31 AM
Send a worker with the galleon. We don't need any improvemnents urgently after the iron and it's doubtful if we can build roads soon.:goodjob:Bravisismo!

Will LC allow us not to start roading immediately?It's your turnset, jesusin, I ain't doing no allowing. ;)

We can surely build the road on Cuzco 1N, and I'm perfectly happy doing that with our 1 worker, while jesusin and the other worker go off gallivanting. :goodjob: I'd like the cottage, but there's no hurry and it's way lower in priority than any roads we can manage to build.

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 09:15 AM
Here are some cold, hard facts for you to theorize about, jesusin, using your current build plan, Grog stays home, axe/mace leaves to defend, we DoW JC on T106, culture slider at 0%, no new garrisons.


turn pop health sick happy mad food fpt to build
---------------------------------------------------------------
T105 11 +14 -12 +14 -13 24/42 +6 archer
T106 11 +13 -12 +11 -12 30/42 +6 cat <--need culture slider
T107 11 +13 -12 +11 -12 36/42 +4 choko
T108 11 +13 -13 +11 -13 40/42 +4 galleon
T109 12 +13 -13 +11 -13 23/44 +6 cat
T110 12 +13 -13 +11 -13 29/44 +6 cat
T111 12 +13 -13 +11 -12 35/44 +4 choko
T112 12 +13 -13 +11 -12 39/44 +6 cat <--axe(s) could arrive
T113 13 +13 -14 +11 -13 23/46 +5 cat
T114 13 +13 -14 +11 -13 28/46 +3 choko
T115 13 +13 -14 +11 -13 31/46 +5 cat


Notes:
1. If Grog stays home, we can make do with no new garrisons and 10% cultural slider until pop14, circa T118.
2. Globe in 1 turn would cost us 2 chops and a 5poprush. Globe in 2 turns would cost us 2 chops and a 3poprush.
3. Before attacking the Hindus we could have gold +2:), silk +1:), and dyes +2:) from KK. Ergo, I don't think we need Globe before PA, it at all. After PA, we may need it for WW, but by then we'll have plenty of cats and enough pop for a 5pop Globe.

Erkon
Jun 10, 2008, 09:59 AM
An update from me, off-topic but may explain my lack of activity from that game - I was to a job interview for a better position and received ( after few quite stresfull days ... :p ) an offer. Seems that from beginning of July I'll wrote/play from Copenhagen ... ;)

Now I'll start to read the ( hundreds ) of missing posts ... :)

Copenhagen? That close to where I live! Just cross the bridge to Sweden and 20 minutes drive :D

Erkon
Jun 10, 2008, 10:04 AM
... Don't believe Gnejs...

It took you, what?, two succession games to finally realize you can't truest Gnejs? :goodjob:

BTW, I think it's time to win this game. The girlie stuff we're doing now (KK on Alex) wont win us an award. Get KK to capture JC cities, since that is the critical path. *run for cover*

PS: sorry for being absent - too much football on TV. Hey, this reminds me: kill Alex! Now!! Before 23.00 tonight!!!

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 10:07 AM
PS: sorry for being absent - too much football on TV. Hey, this reminds me: kill Alex! Now!! Before 23.00 tonight!!!Hey, man. DOn't spam this thread. Take it to the Admin thread... :lol:

Erkon
Jun 10, 2008, 10:14 AM
Hey, man. DOn't spam this thread. Take it to the Admin thread... :lol:

Hey! Don't mess with a Heptathlete (or whatever it's called). Just report my post with the button! I dare you. I double dare you. :lol:

Did you notice that Alan occasionally spams his non-spam thread? :lol:

AlanH
Jun 10, 2008, 11:29 AM
Did you notice that Alan occasionally spams his non-spam thread? :lol:
Who? Me? What? Where?

LowtherCastle
Jun 10, 2008, 11:50 AM
Some more actual factuals:

pop Base-Comm 100% research 90% research
----------------------------------------------------
11 48 241bpt 217bpt
12 51 254bpt 229bpt
13 52 260bpt 235bpt w/cottage
13 54 269bpt 241bpt w/hamlet


Notes:
1. If Grog stays and the axe goes, Murky is at +11:). 10%:culture: gives us +13:).
2. Pop12 is not so good if we need the cultural slider for it. Pop13 is bad without a cottage.
3. Pop13 w/hamlet pays for the 10%:culture: slider.

Conclusion: Either we stop at pop11 or our worker builds a cottage immediately after the iron.

jesusin
Jun 10, 2008, 11:27 PM
Some more actual factuals:

pop Base-Comm 100% research 90% research
----------------------------------------------------
11 48 241bpt 217bpt
12 51 254bpt 229bpt
13 52 260bpt 235bpt w/cottage
13 54 269bpt 241bpt w/hamlet


Notes:
1. If Grog stays and the axe goes, Murky is at +11:). 10%:culture: gives us +13:).
2. Pop12 is not so good if we need the cultural slider for it. Pop13 is bad without a cottage.
3. Pop13 w/hamlet pays for the 10%:culture: slider.

Conclusion: Either we stop at pop11 or our worker builds a cottage immediately after the iron.

Thank you. Very interesting.

Now, if we were to decide to stay at pop11, we wouldn't be doing 241bpt, would we? We would realize that working a sea tile would be a waste since we don't want the food, so we would change to the 0-4-1 tile. Ergo 232bpt.

The fact that we can build a Cat a turn doesn't mean that we wouldn't appreciate 4 more base hammers.

The consequence of all this is that we don't HAVE to build a cottage.


Anyway, I am reluctant to send our (only) worker to the S too soon. I might walk the plank, and it's full of buggers there:p. Prechopping and preroading the forest might be done only to find that we end up never chopping. So I might as well build the cottage first.:)

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 12:40 AM
Thank you. Very interesting.

Now, if we were to decide to stay at pop11, we wouldn't be doing 241bpt, would we? We would realize that working a sea tile would be a waste since we don't want the food, so we would change to the 0-4-1 tile. Ergo 232bpt.

The fact that we can build a Cat a turn doesn't mean that we wouldn't appreciate 4 more base hammers.

The consequence of all this is that we don't HAVE to build a cottage.


Anyway, I am reluctant to send our (only) worker to the S too soon. I might walk the plank, and it's full of buggers there:p. Prechopping and preroading the forest might be done only to find that we end up never chopping. So I might as well build the cottage first.:)Good point, except that I went the other direction wiith it. At pop11, since we only need 15h for a cat, we don't need to work the deer and the sheep. Instead we can work all three coast and the new cottage for 54cpt (in 7 turns when the plains hamlet becomes a village). EDIT: Including the 20% research prereq bonus, that would be 324bpt, which means we would finish Communism in 28t, T133, 450ad, using 1 GS.

At Cuzco 1N, only Fred could attack you and he couldn't sneak up on you without Engineering.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 01:15 AM
Alternative, slow-growth plan:
Stay at pop11 for now. Max research and beeline Communism>Chemistry. Build mostly cats, some chokos. Build 3 more cottages for when we have the happies to grow to pop13.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 01:38 AM
PPP updated.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258

Please state your opinion on:

- The 2 Axes movement (no access to the save right now).
- Keeping the Archer at home while at pop12 to stay at 100% science.
- Working the plains hill at pop13, in order increase our production and in order not to grow too fast to pop14.
- Everything else.

klarius
Jun 11, 2008, 02:29 AM
PPP updated.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258

Please state your opinion on:

- The 2 Axes movement (no access to the save right now).
- Keeping the Archer at home while at pop12 to stay at 100% science.
- Working the plains hill at pop13, in order increase our production and in order not to grow too fast to pop14.
- Everything else.
For the axe movement you have the choices (not necessarily the same for both):

stay put. Watch what happens in the Sparta-Cuzco region. Join the stack once Cuzco falls.
move 2 NE T105 before CF. Will teleport to adjacent Cuzco with CF. Next turn enter Cuzco and teleport together with the cats. Move towards home for either upgrade or garrisson.
gift to KK.I wouldn't be concerned to grow too fast. These plays with garrisson and culture rate may be obsolete soon. KK might take Antium fast or we meet somebody else who sells us some resources.
Or we decide we want aqueduct (pop-rush) -> globe (pop-rush) or something like that and need pop.
If you neither need food nor hammers (because they are wasted in overflow), you still can use a scientist, which is still more effective than an one gold tile.

One more point to your PPP. You may get a tech on top of the DoW from KK. As we don't need more fair trade from him, there is no reason not to take it.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 02:42 AM
One more point to your PPP. You may get a tech on top of the DoW from KK. As we don't need more fair trade from him, there is no reason not to take it.

I was thinking on taking his money too. We can always gift him money anyway.

FiveAces
Jun 11, 2008, 03:23 AM
PPP updated.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258

Please state your opinion on:

- The 2 Axes movement (no access to the save right now).
- Keeping the Archer at home while at pop12 to stay at 100% science.
- Working the plains hill at pop13, in order increase our production and in order not to grow too fast to pop14.
- Everything else.

1) ok with the axes, we can consider gifting the scout once it's served it's purpose.
2) ok, he won't be defending until after cuzco anyway, and we will have some time plus maybe engineering to get him in position.
3) not ok. There is no real need for the extra production is there? Therefore the optimal move would be to work coast. We can always press the "no growth" button if needed.
4) I like it. :goodjob:

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 03:30 AM
3) not ok. There is no real need for the extra production is there? Therefore the optimal move would be to work coast. We can always press the "no growth" button if needed.


At pop13 we have all coast worked, the options are cottage or PH.
I like the extra production to be able to build a Mace from time to time, not only Cats and Chokos.

FiveAces
Jun 11, 2008, 03:38 AM
At pop13 we have all coast worked, the options are cottage or PH.
I like the extra production to be able to build a Mace from time to time, not only Cats and Chokos.

Sorry, I don't have save open either. In that case, I'd say either cottage or sci, depending on if you think we can grow the cottage enough to offset the lower initial sci output. We can always just work the PH for 2 turns or so if we want a mace before switching back, right?

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 03:46 AM
I wouldn't be concerned to grow too fast. These plays with garrisson and culture rate may be obsolete soon. KK might take Antium fast or we meet somebody else who sells us some resources.
Or we decide we want aqueduct (pop-rush) -> globe (pop-rush) or something like that and need pop.KK won't have any gold till after he captures both Antium and Rome. Rome's culture includes both gold tiles and there's a ton of Roman culture on both already. KK wont give us silk till after he captures Athens or Rome. KK won't give us any dyes till after Hamburg. Our best bet is trading for gems. (Or should I say, our best prayer? :sad:)

klarius
Jun 11, 2008, 04:49 AM
KK won't have any gold till after he captures both Antium and Rome. Rome's culture includes both gold tiles and there's a ton of Roman culture on both already. KK wont give us silk till after he captures Athens or Rome. KK won't give us any dyes till after Hamburg. Our best bet is trading for gems. (Or should I say, our best prayer? :sad:)
Or gold, dyes, silk, spices, sugar, wine from the other continent. Free religion is still an option we might have to use to get KK into it.
I wouldn't base anything on the current happiness level. Just use garrison or slider, don't deliberately restrict growth (at least to size 13). If we decide at some point that we need something urgent, we need a high hammer configuration and then don't work all coast at size <13.

Edit: Forgot that there is also whale. Even if we don't hook ours, we might get one from KK or somebody else.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 05:00 AM
Pre-Play-Plan Turn 105-115 v4.0Okay, jesusin, you do the details as you see fit. But I think there are two important factors missing: 1) The CatStack needs not one but two modern defenders as soon as Cuzco falls (1 choko + 1 mace); and 2) We need a plan for safely roading from Cuzco 1N to Antium.

For example:
False security: If you want another garrison to pop13, delay the archer's departure 1 turn and then leave a cat behind, but don't leave our CatStack barely defended. Eventually, the cat will be free to move on. No biggie. (But preferably just use the cultural slider and don't worry about researching slower.)

False economy: Just don't like sending the worker to MusaLand instead of building another garrison or using the cultural slider. It's false economy. It starts our flow of units 1 turn sooner, but costs that flow of units 1.5 turns without the roads and w/engineering loses 2 turns to Antium and Rome. I don't buy the they-will-pillage-our-roads paranoia either.

The only sensible way to build those roads is with two workers, accompanied by our well-defended CatStack, right after Cuzco falls, moving down to Antium. Two of the tiles are grass, so the workers can build the roads as fast as the units move (the workers actually move the units faster for the first tile). If you're worried about protecting the workers build another choko and keep the axes with it, or whatever. Plank schmank.

Build roads. Build roads fearlessly. If the workers have to wait for Cuzco to fall, let them wait. Send Grog to MusaLand and build roads.

EDIT: See following post for my big-picture analysis. Frankly, I think we should use the cultural slider freely and be a lot less builderish and a lot more warmongerish.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 05:21 AM
I wouldn't base anything on the current happiness level. Just use garrison or slider, don't deliberately restrict growth (at least to size 13).I just feel like we're not being very consistent in our thinking with this turnset. There are a lot of gives and takes in each little proposal and the end product is Swiss cheese.

Is our priority warring or not? Do we care if Communism is a couple turns later or not? I think we need to do everything possible to get a functioning CatStack 1 turn sooner, not one turn later. That means:

Murky builds 1 archer + cats + 1 galleon.
Asoka pays for upgrades.
Our workers connect iron and then build roads to the Antium. If they get pillaged, we frigging build them again.

I don't think we should grow at the expense of our warring.
I don't think we should explore at the expense of our warrring.
I don't think we should research at the expense of our warring.

If we want to grow, let it be at the expense of our research by using the cultural slider or by using our out-dated units.
If we want to explore, send Grog and use the cultural slider for happiness.
If we're afraid of building roads, protect our workers with units going toward Antium.
If we want to research faster, do it at the expense of growth.
If we want KK to capture cities, build more cats so we can control our destiny and decimate the enemy (don't gift him our units which we can no longer control).

Nothing at the expense of warring.

Gnejs
Jun 11, 2008, 08:44 AM
PPP updated.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258

Please state your opinion on:

- The 2 Axes movement (no access to the save right now).
- Keeping the Archer at home while at pop12 to stay at 100% science.
- Working the plains hill at pop13, in order increase our production and in order not to grow too fast to pop14.
- Everything else.

No medic gift to KK?

Don't bring in Lizzie. Don't bring in Lizzie. Don't bring in Lizzie. Don't bring in Lizzie. And additionally, don't bring in Lizzie. :) I spoke to our ever-absent highly-decorated village idiot captain on the phone and he was just as certain about this as I am.

Don't send the worker away. I would much rather be without a scout on the other continent and road twice as fast or get another cottage up.

I agree with LC that our priorities are, in order:
1. One unit per turn from now until PA, and one unit per turn afterwards. No girlie buildings for the rest of this game unless it is needed to maintain one unit per turn.
2. Max research to get the PA as soon as possible.
3. Max growth to get some spare pop for rushing if needed. If not, work more cottages for improved research.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 09:37 AM
We are not forgetting our warring. We will be building a unit a turn, Cat, Choko or Mace, with the only exception of 1Galleon.

Okay, jesusin, you do the details as you see fit. But I think there are two important factors missing: 1) The CatStack needs not one but two modern defenders as soon as Cuzco falls (1 choko + 1 mace); and 2) We need a plan for safely roading from Cuzco 1N to Antium.

1) The Axe->Mace will be defending 1N of Cuzco very soon. The Arc->Choko will join him midturnset.More chokos will be built in my turnset, the last one could be a Cat instead in order to have more overflow for the first unit of the next turnset to be a Mace. So by the end of my turnset we will have 2 pairs of modern Catstack defenders.
2) We are not roading Cuzco-Antium very soon. Cuzco has to fall before. So I think 1 Worker to see the world in a galleon and 1 worker to build a cottage and travel to Cuzco in my turnset is enough. No prechopping then. The next turnset the second Mace-Choko pair might be used to protect the worker, instead of protecting a second stack.


Build roads. Build roads fearlessly. If the workers have to wait for Cuzco to fall, let them wait. Send Grog to MusaLand and build roads.


I thought you weren't disallowing anything this turnset...;)

klarius
Jun 11, 2008, 09:38 AM
I don't know what this obsession with (non-river) cottages is. It's doubtful that even one will get a hamlet in the time to PA. Before it's just one lousy coin.
More than one is really just a waste of worker turns.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 09:56 AM
I don't know what this obsession with (non-river) cottages is. It's doubtful that even one will get a hamlet in the time to PA. Before it's just one lousy coin.
More than one is really just a waste of worker turns.

I quite agree.

What is the hurry with growing then? I'd really prefer using pop13 on the hill.

Pop14 will be marginally useful. If we have lots of happiness, its contribution as a scientist will be small. If we don't have happiness enough, I'd prefer to see him as an angry face than to lower the science rate.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 10:44 AM
I thought you weren't disallowing anything this turnset...;)I'm advocating, not allowing. Advocating by presenting rational arguments, because I find you to operate rationally. I prefer to operate according to the most rational argument, regardless of whose it is, mine, yours, or someone's else's. ;)
We are not forgetting our warring. We will be building a unit a turn, Cat, Choko or Mace, with the only exception of 1Galleon.Of course you aren't, in that respect. My point is to delay absolutely no unit, if at all humanly possible. Using the culture slider delays research and frees up units. Using the culture slider frees up a worker to build a road, thus speeding up units. That's my point. When you go for a cultural victory, you try to squeeze a GA out of every last city and a :culture: out of every last coin, right? That's what I'm talking about.

1) The Axe->Mace will be defending 1N of Cuzco very soon. The Arc->Choko will join him midturnset. More chokos will be built in my turnset, the last one could be a Cat instead in order to have more overflow for the first unit of the next turnset to be a Mace. So by the end of my turnset we will have 2 pairs of modern Catstack defenders.
2) We are not roading Cuzco-Antium very soon. Cuzco has to fall before. So I think 1 Worker to see the world in a galleon and 1 worker to build a cottage and travel to Cuzco in my turnset is enough. No prechopping then. The next turnset the second Mace-Choko pair might be used to protect the worker, instead of protecting a second stack. This doesn't make any sense. Why tie up 2 units with one worker just so you can ship away 1 worker instead of 1 unit??? And you get slower roads to boot. :confused::confused::confused:You see, here we envision the turnset differently. Using your PPP, I don't see your 1st choko defender reaching Cuzco 1N until T115 w/engineering or T116 without engineering. The archer/chooko stays till pop13 = T112. You don't build a second choko until T113.

KK should capture Cuzco on T112-113 at the latest. We'll know what JC has in Cuzco this turn (probably 3 defenders at most). Cuzco has no cultural defense, so you can suicide all four cats and then KK only needs to clean up. WIth two workers, you could build a cottage on Deers 1W and have both there by T112. (Btw, Cuzco 1N is already roaded.)

Your plan for roading to Antium takes 7 turns in the next turnset for the roads to get done. That slows down 10 units or more and delays Rome by 2 turns or more. What are you gaining in exchange for slowing down the capture of Rome? Have you calculated how many turns Communism is slowed down by using the slider?

Using both workers, the roads are done as fast or faster than the stack itself moves. EVERY UNIT THEREAFTER MOVES FASTER, TURN AFTER TURN AFTER TURN. And we should get engineering any time now and the roads make even more of a difference.

Questions to your PPP:
1. Will you use the slider on T108 at pop12? Whether you send off Grog or not, you'll need it.
2. T111 the second whip :mad: wears off, so with Grog you wouldn't need the slider till pop13, but the useless medic axe could arrive on T112 anyway.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 10:55 AM
I don't know what this obsession with (non-river) cottages is. It's doubtful that even one will get a hamlet in the time to PA. Before it's just one lousy coin.
More than one is really just a waste of worker turns.I mentioned multiple cottages once. I wasn't obsessed with cottages. I was obsessed with growing fast. Ever had that obsession? :mischief:

I mentioned it before I realized we don't even need to go past pop11 and after you mentioned the idea of using a scientist instead of the cottage. At pop13 it's silly to not have a cottage, because we only need to work the hill when we're building chokos (or maces, God forbid). At each additional pop it's silly not to have another cottage for the same reason, if we want to grow fast.

The pop13 cottage will definitely be a hamlet before we research Communism unless we build only chokos.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 11:03 AM
No medic gift to KK?What is this obsession with gifting our axes to KK? It's painfully obvious that we need more garrisons in Murky so we can satisfy our obsession with growing to pop13 and not waste cats as garrisons and not send 50% of our workers off gallivanting.

Erkon
Jun 11, 2008, 11:32 AM
PPP updated.
...
Please state your opinion on: - Everything else.

Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!
Don't bring in Elizabeth!


And one more thing: don't bring in Elizabeth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 11:46 AM
I'm advocating, not allowing. Advocating by presenting rational arguments, because I find you to operate rationally. I prefer to operate according to the most rational argument, regardless of whose it is, mine, yours, or someone's else's. ;)
Of course you aren't, in that respect. My point is to delay absolutely no unit, if at all humanly possible. Using the culture slider delays research and frees up units. Using the culture slider frees up a worker to build a road, thus speeding up units. That's my point. When you go for a cultural victory, you try to squeeze a GA out of every last city and a :culture: out of every last coin, right? That's what I'm talking about.

You see, here we envision the turnset differently. Using your PPP, I don't see your 1st choko defender reaching Cuzco 1N until T115 w/engineering or T116 without engineering. The archer/chooko stays till pop13 = T112. You don't build a second choko until T113.

KK should capture Cuzco on T112-113 at the latest. We'll know what JC has in Cuzco this turn (probably 3 defenders at most). Cuzco has no cultural defense, so you can suicide all four cats and then KK only needs to clean up. WIth two workers, you could build a cottage on Deers 1W and have both there by T112. (Btw, Cuzco 1N is already roaded.)

Your plan for roading to Antium takes 7 turns in the next turnset for the roads to get done. That slows down 10 units or more and delays Rome by 2 turns or more. What are you gaining in exchange for slowing down the capture of Rome? Have you calculated how many turns Communism is slowed down by using the slider?

Using both workers, the roads are done as fast or faster than the stack itself moves. EVERY UNIT THEREAFTER MOVES FASTER, TURN AFTER TURN AFTER TURN. And we should get engineering any time now and the roads make even more of a difference.

Questions to your PPP:
1. Will you use the slider on T108 at pop12? Whether you send off Grog or not, you'll need it.
2. T111 the second whip :mad: wears off, so with Grog you wouldn't need the slider till pop13, but the useless medic axe could arrive on T112 anyway.

The main difference in our points of view is how soon Cuzco will fall. The worker/workers don't need to get there before. Why do you think Cuzco won't... heavens!, it's true, the border hasn't expanded so no cultural defenses there! :eek: I see.

The second difference is the number of units we will have at Cuzco when it falls. I can imagine 3 to 5 untis, most of them wounded. So I don't see having 1 single worker as a big problem. I don't know where do you get the 10 delayed units from.


Using 2 units to protect the roader(s) is a pity, agreed. I don't see how you are protecting them. If they both road a tile ahead of the stack, then the stack moves 2 tiles, passing them and leaving them alone. :confused:

question1: not sending Grog out and keeping the archer there too till pop 13 makes using the slider at pop12 innecesary... wait a moment... I am counting the happy the Axe is giving at the moment, and at the same time I am sending him away... :blush: I don't know how to count up to 14. That's what happens when a slow thinker tries to hurry up things and makes his PPP in the place where it shouldn't be done.

Ok, back to the drawing board again. Next turn, both the new unit and the Axe will go. I'll be 2 happies short, so 90% slider. Then I don't want to grow in a hurry. Growing soon would be bad to our research. (This is keeping Grog and sending out a worker).

Also, paying for an upgrade is costly and it's provocked by our lack of hammers right now. We want ot build an overflow for the galleon. In addition, Cuzco-1N tile can't be attacked, so we are not in a hurry to have 2 good defenders there.

So what about changing the sheep guy to the PH immediately, and building Cat-Cat-Galleon-Cat-Choko instead of the lousy archer?




I agree with your general view of the game. Units are the key. We don't need much more hammers in the mid term, since we are already building a unit a turn. We don't need more science, since we believe that the wars will last longer than the path to PA. We don't need more pop, since we don't need hammers nor beakers...

How does everybody feel about sending Grog instead of a worker? Since we don't care the year we reach the PA, it doesn't matter if we lose beakers/hammers.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 11:53 AM
Who said the Cuzco-!N tile is roaded?


Are we sure if I move the medic 2NE and then CF Alex it will move towards Cuzco and not S?


Don't bring in Elizabeth!


Glad to hear that. I don't feel at ease with that. What do you want me to do with Eli? Set her on Spain? Nothing?

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 12:05 PM
No medic gift to KK?

Don't bring in Lizzie. Don't bring in Lizzie. Don't bring in Lizzie. Don't bring in Lizzie. And additionally, don't bring in Lizzie. :) I spoke to our ever-absent highly-decorated village idiot captain on the phone and he was just as certain about this as I am.

Don't send the worker away. I would much rather be without a scout on the other continent and road twice as fast or get another cottage up.

I agree with LC that our priorities are, in order:
1. One unit per turn from now until PA, and one unit per turn afterwards. No girlie buildings for the rest of this game unless it is needed to maintain one unit per turn.
2. Max research to get the PA as soon as possible.
3. Max growth to get some spare pop for rushing if needed. If not, work more cottages for improved research.

Sorry, I had missed this post due to crosspost.

All thing considered, I think we should grow once in order to have all sea tiles worked. After that, grow once and alternate PH/scientist as needed. No more growth seems beneficial right now. If we grow, let the guy be unhappy or use the slider, depending on whcih way we get more beakers that turn. When we swim in happies later on, it will be good to have 1 cottage.

No gift to KK, I prefer a unit in our hands in 12 turns better than a unit in KK hands right now.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 12:23 PM
PPP updated to v4.1.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258

I am sorry to have so many versions. I am sure this is not the good one, either. Thank you for your patience.



On the way our decisions are taken:
I think that the PPP is a very useful tool. We all can comment on a precise plan, having the whole picture in front of us.
I think that giving a link to the PPP every time it is updated is good, in order not to miss the changes.
What I am not so sure of, is the overwriting old versions with the new version thing. Half our posts are incomprehensible now that the plan they refered to has disappeared. An that's a lot of posts! Wouldn't it be better to use a new post every time the plan is updated?

klarius
Jun 11, 2008, 12:34 PM
Are we sure if I move the medic 2NE and then CF Alex it will move towards Cuzco and not S?

Yes we are :). At least I am. The tile NE means the same jump distance but is 2 tiles nearer to our city.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM
Why do you think Cuzco won't... heavens!, it's true, the border hasn't expanded so no cultural defenses there! :eek: I see.

The second difference is the number of units we will have at Cuzco when it falls. I can imagine 3 to 5 untis, most of them wounded. So I don't see having 1 single worker as a big problem. I don't know where do you get the 10 delayed units from.

Using 2 units to protect the roader(s) is a pity, agreed. I don't see how you are protecting them. If they both road a tile ahead of the stack, then the stack moves 2 tiles, passing them and leaving them alone. :confused:

Also, paying for an upgrade is costly and it's provocked by our lack of hammers right now. We want ot build an overflow for the galleon. In addition, Cuzco-1N tile can't be attacked, so we are not in a hurry to have 2 good defenders there.

So what about changing the sheep guy to the PH immediately, and building Cat-Cat-Galleon-Cat-Choko instead of the lousy archer?1. Does Cuzco get culture from being Hindu if JC is running Buddhism? If so, then it's defenses will go to 20% in a couple of turns.
2. When Cuzco falls I imagine you'll have 0 or 1 withdrawn cat and any newlly arriving units, undamaged. They will be able to move forward, 1 tile at a time and protect the 2 workers for 2 turns. On the third turn, they will go onto the banana jungle tile. By then other units, preferably at least one more choko will be catching up and be able to protect the workers on teh jungle tile when the stacks moves toawrd Antium.

The ten turns was just a number off the top of my head, based on the junlge road getting finished 7 turns into the next turnset, T122. That means units up till then will have been slowed down. I figured that was about ten turns worth of units, because I see Cuzco falling around T112. It's the idea that counts, not the exact number of units slowed down. Slowing down any units is too many for my taste, if we can avoid it.
3. You're right, paying for upgrades is only to speed up defenders. If you build 3cat-galleon-choko, that choko arrives at Cuxco 1N on T115. We hope Cuzco will fall sooner. I would plan for the best. I wouldn't worry about the cash.
4. You're absolutely right about needing overflow for the galleon. It costs 30h, right?
Who said the Cuzco-1N tile is roaded? LC did. He used a trick. But do commit any irreversible moves trying it. :nuke: Clicking on the axe in Murky, for example, you hold down the mouse button to see how many moves it will take to move to the banana jungle south of Cuzco. The white dotted lines and turn numbers go straight through Cuzco 1N and show it as having a road. Thus, it indeed has a road. :)

Gnejs
Jun 11, 2008, 12:44 PM
How does everybody feel about sending Grog instead of a worker? Since we don't care the year we reach the PA, it doesn't matter if we lose beakers/hammers.

Maybe I missed this part of the discussion, but is the benefit of having a land unit on the other continent really so big that it outweighs either 30+ worker turns or 30+ turns of +1 happiness?

To me it seems as if the outcome of this game is decided almost solely by events on our continent. The AIs on the other continent are marginally helpful for trading some backfill technologies, selling techs for cash, and maybe for trading resources.

We also don't need any circumnavigation bonus (if we are going to need to send units to the other continent we have already lost). All in all, we might as well send an empty galleon there, maybe even a caravel if it fits better into the general production/growth schedule.

Gnejs
Jun 11, 2008, 12:50 PM
I agree with your general view of the game. Units are the key. We don't need much more hammers in the mid term, since we are already building a unit a turn. We don't need more science, since we believe that the wars will last longer than the path to PA. We don't need more pop, since we don't need hammers nor beakers...


We should still aim to get the PA at the absolutely earliest possible date. Getting visibility of all KK's units and cities makes a huge difference when making the strategic decisions. We can much more accurately time our unit moves.

I also experienced some strange effects on the research rate just after getting the PA in my test games. A couple of quite expensive techs took just one turn to research - not sure if this was due to my ally already having put a lot of beakers into them or some other effect. I didn't investigate it fully so I may be wrong though...

FiveAces
Jun 11, 2008, 01:01 PM
1. Does Cuzco get culture from being Hindu if JC is running Buddhism? If so, then it's defenses will go to 20% in a couple of turns.

Ooh I know this one - No. It does not. To get culture from a religion you must either be running the religion, have no state religion, or be in free religion.

Erkon
Jun 11, 2008, 01:20 PM
...How does everybody feel about sending Grog instead of a worker? Since we don't care the year we reach the PA, it doesn't matter if we lose beakers/hammers.

I like sending Grog. It's beautiful to send a unit that is 4000 years old on a Galleon around the world, experiencing the wonders of new civilizations, but is illiterate and can not write home about it! :lol: I've lost track if the stone is quarried. It better be, since we need a slab of rock for Grog to chisel in his cave drawings :lol:

Yes to using cultural slider to keep Murky happy. Yes to upgrade units at silver. Yes to road as quickly as possible (two workers together). Yes to growth. Yes to kill JC. No to bring in Elizabeth.

jesusin, remember that I have twice the number of votes compared to the others :cool:

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 01:21 PM
Yes we are :). At least I am. The tile NE means the same jump distance but is 2 tiles nearer to our city.

Then I am too. :lol:

Maybe I missed this part of the discussion, but is the benefit of having a land unit on the other continent really so big that it outweighs either 30+ worker turns or 30+ turns of +1 happiness?

To me it seems as if the outcome of this game is decided almost solely by events on our continent. The AIs on the other continent are marginally helpful for trading some backfill technologies, selling techs for cash, and maybe for trading resources.

We also don't need any circumnavigation bonus (if we are going to need to send units to the other continent we have already lost). All in all, we might as well send an empty galleon there, maybe even a caravel if it fits better into the general production/growth schedule.

I like a caravel, cheaper and sooner!

On the other hand, meeting the landlocked guy on the other continent gives us more gold, more techtrading opportunities and maybe more happy resources.

Erkon
Jun 11, 2008, 01:25 PM
...Glad to hear that. I don't feel at ease with that. What do you want me to do with Eli? Set her on Spain? Nothing?

Ignore her. We will set her on Alex a few turns before we DoW her. :backstab:

Maybe I missed this part of the discussion, but is the benefit of having a land unit on the other continent really so big that it outweighs either 30+ worker turns or 30+ turns of +1 happiness?..

The only reason was in case Mansa i land locked, and to speed up the encounter of the other AIs. There is also a risk that the passages north and south are blocked. However, the AIs will probably have open borders and roam around with their units on the east coast, so you may be correct that Grog will not help much. So, send him to the silver and upgrade to Mace when possible :D

Gnejs
Jun 11, 2008, 01:34 PM
The only reason was in case Mansa i land locked, and to speed up the encounter of the other AIs. There is also a risk that the passages north and south are blocked. However, the AIs will probably have open borders and roam around with their units on the east coast, so you may be correct that Grog will not help much. So, send him to the silver and upgrade to Mace when possible :D

What could Mansa possibly have that we don't have already? Feudalism? I am pretty certain that the other continent will be backwards compared to ours.

Erkon
Jun 11, 2008, 01:38 PM
What could Mansa possibly have that we don't have already? Feudalism? I am pretty certain that the other continent will be backwards compared to ours.

Coins and resources (gems?). Do we need it? Could be useful. Is it worth one unit i.e. one turn of production? Don't know.

Erkon
Jun 11, 2008, 01:55 PM
...On the way our decisions are taken:
I think that the PPP is a very useful tool. We all can comment on a precise plan, having the whole picture in front of us.
I think that giving a link to the PPP every time it is updated is good, in order not to miss the changes.
What I am not so sure of, is the overwriting old versions with the new version thing. Half our posts are incomprehensible now that the plan they refered to has disappeared. An that's a lot of posts! Wouldn't it be better to use a new post every time the plan is updated?

Keep in mind that most of our posts are obsolete a few days later anyway, since players change their minds or are convinced by other players. :lol:

Sending a link is good practice. Keeping one post is necessary, else we may discuss two different versions for two different posts.

We have tried to strike through changes, but it gets messy. Perhaps change color to Silver for text that has been removed, and remove the text after the second update?

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 03:16 PM
I am sorry to have so many versions. I am sure this is not the good one, either. Thank you for your patience.

On the way our decisions are taken:
I think that the PPP is a very useful tool. We all can comment on a precise plan, having the whole picture in front of us.
I think that giving a link to the PPP every time it is updated is good, in order not to miss the changes.
What I am not so sure of, is the overwriting old versions with the new version thing. Half our posts are incomprehensible now that the plan they refered to has disappeared. An that's a lot of posts! Wouldn't it be better to use a new post every time the plan is updated?

Keep in mind that most of our posts are obsolete a few days later anyway, since players change their minds or are convinced by other players. :lol:

Sending a link is good practice. Keeping one post is necessary, else we may discuss two different versions for two different posts.

We have tried to strike through changes, but it gets messy. Perhaps change color to Silver for text that has been removed, and remove the text after the second update?

Strikeouts are good for a while. I suppose when you go to a whole new version you could put the old one in spoilers.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 03:23 PM
I like a caravel, cheaper and sooner!

On the other hand, meeting the landlocked guy on the other continent gives us more gold, more techtrading opportunities and maybe more happy resources.Hmmm....this is an interesting dilemma. The caravel also means we can build a choko a turn sooner. On the other hand, if we send Grog, we can also bring him home asap, if we don't care about circumnavigation. We're going to need a lot of cash from other AIs to pay for all our unit costs. And happies would be very useful. All in all, I like having the galleon to protect our seafood later on. We don't want to have to build another sea vessel.

Circumnavigation should be easy by map trading, if we keep ours.

Gnejs
Jun 11, 2008, 03:40 PM
PPP is looking excellent now. I only have a couple of small comments.

CITY MM

Move from sheep to PH for 5 turns. Then, depending on the happy situation, stay there or back to sheep.

T106, culture slider to 10%. Move up to 20% if needed and it offers better city output than just allowing unhappy citizens.


Not sure I follow this part. Switching away from sheep is to halt growth and build up overflow for the galleon, right?

Keeping Grog at home and building a caravel instead of a galleon gains us one happiness so we can grow to pop12 immediately. The caravel can also be completed using 22 base hammers.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS + SEQUENCE

T105: CF Alex, trade Optics+HBR+30g from Eliz for Educ., tell JC to attack Athens, break Asoka's Incense for silver deal, trade stone to Asoka for Incense+2gpt, trade silver to KK for 4gpt.


I'd skip HBR in the trade with Lizzie. We don't need it and leaving it out gets us more fair trade points and less WFYABTA.

LowtherCastle
Jun 11, 2008, 03:42 PM
BUILD QUEUE

2Cat-Galleon-Cat-Choko-Cat-Choko-Cat-Mace-Cat

CITY MM
[COLOR="Blue"]
Move from sheep to PH for 5 turns. Then, depending on the happy situation, stay there or back to sheep.

trade silver to KK for 4gpt.Don't think you get astro till T108 for the galleon. Edit: Hey, wait a minute. That means you could build a choko before the galleon, right?

On the PH, just watch the overflow because you'll fill it up pretty quickly after building the galleon.

Should we maybe hold off on the silver to KK for 4gpt, just in case we can soon get a happy resource instead from the other continent?

klarius
Jun 11, 2008, 09:55 PM
Well, there are still more options (going back to old ideas :lol:).
One is work boat for whales now while we don't have iron, to get us a happy maybe relieving a garrison.
The other is galley now instead of galleon, to solve the hammer-overflow dilemma and also use a non-iron turn for our boat.
We have already 4 cats for Cuzco. Do we really want to suicide more there? It's really maces or chokos we would like to have more now, but we cannot build them before iron is on-line.

Edit:
In fact, I like now (again) wb-galley-chok, growing to size 12, which means we have flexibility then to build cats, choks or maces as we like w/o compromising tile assignments too much.

klarius
Jun 11, 2008, 10:35 PM
It just came to my mind that we gain nothing by declaring on JC T106. But we risk being attacked in KK-land, if we have still a unit there. So DoW JC should be T107. Our units can still teleport out of Cuzco with full movement then.

jesusin
Jun 11, 2008, 11:33 PM
Not sure I follow this part. Switching away from sheep is to halt growth and build up overflow for the galleon, right?

Right


Keeping Grog at home and building a caravel instead of a galleon gains us one happiness so we can grow to pop12 immediately. The caravel can also be completed using 22 base hammers.

No, Grog was already considered at home in the MM.


I'd skip HBR in the trade with Lizzie. We don't need it and leaving it out gets us more fair trade points and less WFYABTA.
Ok, I will delete HBR from the PPP


Don't think you get astro till T108 for the galleon. Edit: Hey, wait a minute. That means you could build a choko before the galleon, right?

Rats. I will change the production to Cat-Caravel-Choko-Cat-Choko-Cat-Mace-Cat-Choko-Cat

On the PH, just watch the overflow because you'll fill it up pretty quickly after building the galleon.

Yeah, sure. No hammer ever lost to overflow excess.

Should we maybe hold off on the silver to KK for 4gpt, just in case we can soon get a happy resource instead from the other continent?
Not many AI on the other continent will have a free happy, they have too few cities. And we have to travel and find them first. I think we have this 10 turns to spare.

Well, there are still more options (going back to old ideas :lol:).
One is work boat for whales now while we don't have iron, to get us a happy maybe relieving a garrison.

Building a WB for whales is as bad as building a unit for garrison. When we get more happies, the garrison will get relieved. But anyway, we need units right now, no delaying units for happiness reasons.


The other is galley now instead of galleon, to solve the hammer-overflow dilemma and also use a non-iron turn for our boat.

There is not such a dilemma, is there? In general we want to grow. At this very moment, we don't want to. This fits nicely with the current need for a bit of overflow.


We have already 4 cats for Cuzco. Do we really want to suicide more there? It's really maces or chokos we would like to have more now, but we cannot build them before iron is on-line.

After we suicide the ones we have, we will need more to take down the next city walls. I am going for 2Cats-1Choko, but I could easily change to 1Cat-1Choko.


Edit:
In fact, I like now (again) wb-galley-chok, growing to size 12, which means we have flexibility then to build cats, choks or maces as we like w/o compromising tile assignments too much.

After the first turn, we can do whatever we like to our tiles, more hammers, more food... probably changing from sheep to sea is a good idea while we are short of happies. As LC analisys showed, growing just now and using the slider is bad to our research output. However, we can grow now and not use the slider (angry faces) while we wait for more happies without hampering our research.

Gnejs
Jun 11, 2008, 11:38 PM
No, Grog was already considered at home in the MM.


Lets see, we have one spare happy face now. Sending away the axe means that we are at the happy cap. Losing the gold costs us two happy, 10% culture regains those two happy. So we are at the happy cap still.

But have you considered that one whip unhappy wears off next turn? This means that there will be one surplus happy (and one surplus health) next turn so not growing doesn't seem very good. Or have I missed something?

klarius
Jun 12, 2008, 12:10 AM
I am going for 2Cats-1Choko, but I could easily change to 1Cat-1Choko.

No you can not. You have no iron for the next 2 builds. That's what brought up the archer upgrade on silver idea.

After the first turn, we can do whatever we like to our tiles, more hammers, more food... probably changing from sheep to sea is a good idea while we are short of happies. As LC analisys showed, growing just now and using the slider is bad to our research output. However, we can grow now and not use the slider (angry faces) while we wait for more happies without hampering our research.

LC assumed that you work coast at size 11 not an additional hammer tile. Size 11 is bad in every respect, IMO, except when building only cats (and probably an archer first).

jesusin
Jun 12, 2008, 01:03 AM
Lets see, we have one spare happy face now. Sending away the axe means that we are at the happy cap. Losing the gold costs us two happy, 10% culture regains those two happy. So we are at the happy cap still.

But have you considered that one whip unhappy wears off next turn? This means that there will be one surplus happy (and one surplus health) next turn so not growing doesn't seem very good. Or have I missed something?

You are right, Grog was considered to go on the ship on the PPP...

No you can not. You have no iron for the next 2 builds. That's what brought up the archer upgrade on silver idea.

LC assumed that you work coast at size 11 not an additional hammer tile. Size 11 is bad in every respect, IMO, except when building only cats (and probably an archer first).

Misunderstanding. I meant that, after the ship and up to the end of the game, I want to build Cat-Cat-Choko-Cat-Cat-Mace...rinse and repeat. That is, 66% Cats. I can be convinced to build only 50% Cats.



Right, With Grog at home (I think we should have the 2 warriors at home just in case) we have to be at pop12 and running 10% culture.

3 options now:
- keep PPP MM, delaying growth to pop12.
- leave MM as in the save to grow in 3 turns. This either delays our ship or forces us to waste money on Archer upgrades to get more overflow for the ship.
- Send Grog to the battlefield as a mace, keep PPP MM.

LowtherCastle
Jun 12, 2008, 01:08 AM
However, we can grow now and not use the slider (angry faces) while we wait for more happies without hampering our research.You're right, jesusin, angry faces only affect our fpt and nothing else, isn't it true? So there's really no need to slow growth, per se. The growth will slow itself down with angry faces, right? This was your solution a while ago, wasn't it? Sorry I missed it when you first suggested it, jesusin, I'm just not used to using angry faces as a temporary growth solution. So this would satisfy klarius' (and my previous) hunger for growth... ;) It's surely true that pop13 is far more ideal for us, assuming we have the happies to run it. If we can achieve pop13 and only sacrifice food-per-turn in the meantime, that strikes me as a wise solution.

If you build cat-galley-choko-choko, the first choko arrives at Cuzco 1N on T112, as I recall. That's about right, maybe early, maybe late, we can only guess. Then the second choko can be the follow-up worker defender on the banana jungle.

I agree with klarius on the galley-upgraded (or galleon) rather caravel. It bothers me that he caravel serves only one purpose--exploration--and then is useless for the duration. Justseems like a waste of a precious build. The galleon explores faster, can carry any unit now or later, and can defend our seafood when we DoW Liz. Since we can have 1 or even 2 chokos ready before the galleon build, if you're concerned about our gold reserves, you could just go 2cats-choko-galleon-choko. That way you only upgrade the axe.

FiveAces
Jun 12, 2008, 01:17 AM
the galleon will require OB's whereas the caravel will not. is there anyone on the other continent that we might not be able to or want to have OB's with?

LowtherCastle
Jun 12, 2008, 01:20 AM
- leave MM as in the save to grow in 3 turns. This either delays our ship or forces us to waste money on Archer upgrades to get more overflow for the ship.No need to delay the galleon, which requires 30h base production. 2 cats at 18hpt, then a choko at 22hpt gives you 6h overflow. Then you could just run 24h or more for the galleon. Hammer production really isn't a major concern for us.

klarius
Jun 12, 2008, 01:25 AM
- Send Grog to the battlefield as a mace, keep PPP MM.
No to upgrade of a reg warrior for 190g unless absolutely needed.

klarius
Jun 12, 2008, 01:38 AM
the galleon will require OB's whereas the caravel will not. is there anyone on the other continent that we might not be able to or want to have OB's with?
Small gold gifts should handle the problem that somebody might be annoyed by our religion (everybody except Toku signs OB at least at cautious). One phase of OB just to pass the ship shouldn't be a problem with anybody.

jesusin
Jun 12, 2008, 01:59 AM
No need to delay the galleon, which requires 30h base production. 2 cats at 18hpt, then a choko at 22hpt gives you 6h overflow. Then you could just run 24h or more for the galleon. Hammer production really isn't a major concern for us.

That way we don't grow in 3 turns.

What about 3Cats-Galleon, growing in 3 turns and using the new pop in the PH that turn?

Gnejs
Jun 12, 2008, 02:20 AM
We are not dowing Lizzie anytime soon. She will be among the last to go so we can live with some pillaged seafood by then. I like the caravel better for the reasons already mentioned (doesn't need open borders, cheaper to build, 3 turns head start on exploration).

How about building a caravel on T105 @22h, then resuming growth @18h on T106 until the end of your turnset?

Edit: The caravel can also be upgraded to a Frigate.

LowtherCastle
Jun 12, 2008, 02:42 AM
That way we don't grow in 3 turns.

What about 3Cats-Galleon, growing in 3 turns and using the new pop in the PH that turn?Now you're in a hurry to grow to pop12? What can I say, jesusin? :lol:

I simply consider the choko defender much higher priority than the question of growth and the question of galleon vs. caravel. Maybe that's just me. Look at how many units we lost last turnset. Deity AIs seem to love to suicide their units. My highest priority would be building a SoD and in my test games, when my CatStacks had less than 2 defenders, they were vulnerable to suicidal deity AIs. Imo, getting our first choko to Cuzco 1N on T115 is not soon enough, but but who knows how soon Cuzco will fall? I can say this, though. If Cuzco falls at the end of your turnset and only Antium and Rome during klarius', then we have about 1 more turnset before PA to capture everyone else. :cool:

Allow me to cast this in a different light. For various reasons you have not been left with a lot of warring options. Nonetheless, you'll do your best, such as taking down Cuzco and who knows what else you have up your sleeve. If this were my turnset, that would leave me with this question:What do I want to leave klarius for his turnset?What would I want to leave for klarius? A deadly CatStack, waiting on Antium's doorstep, roads connected and replacement units pouring in. My gut feeling is that the first choko arriving at Cuzco 1N on T115 kind of ties klarius' hands.

jesusin
Jun 12, 2008, 03:00 AM
Now you're in a hurry to grow to pop12? What can I say, jesusin? :lol:


Just mentioning all pros and cons of every alternative.

Growing in 4 turns, with caravel and not delaying first Choko is my favourite.

LowtherCastle
Jun 12, 2008, 03:27 AM
How about building a caravel on T105 @22h, then resuming growth @18h on T106 until the end of your turnset?

Edit: The caravel can also be upgraded to a Frigate.Edited.

This is definitely an enticing variation, so I tried it out on VALPEN. Twice. The first time I met all AIs in 13 turns with both the caravel and the galleon, except that I forgot to use the unit from the galleon. But I started out already konwing 2AIs, so I tried a little earlier. The second time I used the unit from the galleon and met everyone in 11 turns. Using the caravel I met most AIs in 15 turns, but didn't meet the last until the 19th turn.

I noticed that all can be lifted up to cautious/Open Borders easily, but not all will trade maps.

Our map is 52 tiles wide and we now see 21 tiles wide. If the other continent is similar than that leaves 4-5 tiles of fogged ocean on each side, so if you build the caravel on T105, per Gnejs, then you'll probably meet the first AI on T109-T110.

31% of the world has no religion, only Confucianism exists on the other continent. Islam is still unknown. So we may immediately become people's worst enemy...:lol:. I think you need to have a strategy for how to deal with this. Gift or trade up to cautious when you get the introductory pop-up? Getting maps from teh first guy enables you to plan out your next moves. Since the continent is vertical in shape, I think you'll meet the most AIs the fastest by starting near the top and going down the side.

klarius
Jun 12, 2008, 04:01 AM
Growing in 4 turns, with caravel and not delaying first Choko is my favourite.
Well, the fastest way to a chok near Cuzco is still archer and upgrade on the silver, not building one by hand after we have iron.
The fastest way to know a lot of the world is galley and upgrade to galleon, not caravel or hand build galleon.

We can have enough money for 3 upgrades (if we stay away from warrior upgrades :eek:) from Asoka and can hope that we later stay afloat by quickly meeting people.

Archer (or wb :D) - galley needs no conflict between growth and hammers.

Gnejs
Jun 12, 2008, 04:05 AM
Another variation is Archer-Caravel-Choko-Cat-... while working 18 hpt the whole time.

One turn delay of the Caravel, but better growth and an earlier stack defender.

Edit: crossposted with klarius.

LowtherCastle
Jun 12, 2008, 04:59 AM
The fastest way to know a lot of the world is galley and upgrade to galleon, not caravel or hand build galleon.Looking at our map, I see it like this:
A T105-caravel is 5 tiles ahead of a T105-galley-upgrade and 9 tiles ahead of a T108-galleon at the beginning of T109. The caravel will meet the first AI a turn sooner that the galley-upgrade. The galley-upgrade will catch up with the caravel about halfway down the continent and reach the bottom about a turn sooner.

Erkon
Jun 12, 2008, 05:48 AM
...Edit: The caravel can also be upgraded to a Frigate.

Frigate! I like I like. Could be used to speed up capture of the western cities by bombardment. Or is it better to use a Galleon to ship in cannons directly?

FiveAces
Jun 12, 2008, 04:47 PM
I agree with LC that the primary objective should be to leave units for the next player to use on Antium. Cuzco should fall with our dual WE-protected cat stack (I apologize this is not 4) and KK's current nearby units. Antium and Rome after will not. They will need our help. That should be first priority. IMO second priority should be research, third exploration of the other continent.

Gnejs
Jun 13, 2008, 12:08 AM
Here are some general thoughts on the future strategy while we are waiting for jesusin to sober up? :D

KK has 5 cities now and needs to capture 13 more, assuming that we can raze Nottingham. At 2 cities per turnset this will take 65 turns (1100 AD), at 3 cities per turnset he will be done in 43 turns (760 AD). Add 10 turns for coming out of revolt and the final border expansion and we are looking at a victory in the range T158-T180 (960-1200 AD).

If things go our way, KK will capture Cuzco and Antium in jesusin's turnset, and Rome and Madrid in klarius' turnset. The next turnset after that (Mitiu?) will be the final one before the PA. Here we have a choice of either clearing out the weak civs, Alex and Freddie, or going all out on Asoka. Once Asoka has fallen we should be able to wrap things up pretty quickly. Washington and Lizzie are so close to us that we can "prepare" them for KK's arrival by killing off all defenders but one in each city.



The other continent holds nearly half of the land, but only 7 civs (ours had 11 civs). As we have 20 cities on our continent there might be around 2.5 cities per AI on the other continent. The chance of one of them being landlocked is pretty slim, on the other hand they might have some spare resources. Getting them to dow each other should also help break up any resource trades. Though we don't want those resources pillaged so an uneven war (2-on-1 or 3-on-1) may be needed.

Btw, the missing leaders are:

Hatshepsut
Montezuma
Saladin
Cyrus
Mansa Musa
Napoleon/Louis
Catherine/Peter



Research:
We will reach Communism around T135. Assuming that KK has Guilds and Gunpowder by then we can get Chemistry around T145, Steel around T155, and then maybe go for Physics and the free GS (for the extra culture :)). But if we/KK are capturing 3 cities per turnset all of this will come too late. We should expect to do the majority of our warring using the units we can build now. We could even consider shutting down research after communism. Just for fun, and since this is Deity. :)

Great persons:
Next one is born on T116. Since we obsolete the great library soon after, the next GP after that will come too late if we don't hurry it. If we run one artist from T120 onwards at +100% birth rate (either Pacifism or NE) we get the next one around T150. This is soon enough to be of use.
We could accelerate this further by running up to 5 specialists at +200% to get another GP in less than 10 turns. These are options to consider when we are limited by culture rather than military progress.

LowtherCastle
Jun 13, 2008, 01:11 AM
Interesting thoughts, Gnejs.

If we capture Cuzco around T112, its borders should expand 2X by T150 at the latest, so we shouldn't even need another GP.

Another thought: Having JC capture Cuzco made our life easier in two respects. No cultural defense for KK to deal with now and lower population means it will come out of resistance sooner. We might want to utilize that in future situations, especially with huge cities, like Madrid or Asoka's cities.

Gnejs
Jun 13, 2008, 02:53 AM
Interesting thoughts, Gnejs.

If we capture Cuzco around T112, its borders should expand 2X by T150 at the latest, so we shouldn't even need another GP.

Another thought: Having JC capture Cuzco made our life easier in two respects. No cultural defense for KK to deal with now and lower population means it will come out of resistance sooner. We might want to utilize that in future situations, especially with huge cities, like Madrid or Asoka's cities.

This would be very useful, but who is going to beat up Asoka before we do? :)

Though it should be possible to set Asoka on Isabella while we are finishing JC, then dow on whoever holds Madrid. Similarily, we can set Lizzie on Alex just before we are about to dow the two of them.

jesusin
Jun 13, 2008, 07:31 AM
My head is killing me.

Would you trust me to play tomorrow morning (Archer first build) or do you prefer me to write another PPP and wait for your comments?

LowtherCastle
Jun 13, 2008, 08:20 AM
My head is killing me.

Would you trust me to play tomorrow morning (Archer first build) or do you prefer me to write another PPP and wait for your comments?Get rid of your headache before you do anything. Play your turnset when you can enjoy it. That includes deciding when you've had enough of our comments. ;)

If you're planning to stick with the caravel, then it makes sense to build it before the archer. Same if you're going to build a galley and upgrade it. One turn shouldn't make any difference for the archer-choko.

Gnejs
Jun 13, 2008, 08:50 AM
My head is killing me.

Would you trust me to play tomorrow morning (Archer first build) or do you prefer me to write another PPP and wait for your comments?

Seems like you had a good time then? :) Sure, go ahead and play!

Get rid of your headache before you do anything. Play your turnset when you can enjoy it. That includes deciding when you've had enough of our comments. ;)

If you're planning to stick with the caravel, then it makes sense to build it before the archer. Same if you're going to build a galley and upgrade it. One turn shouldn't make any difference for the archer-choko.

Archer first gets the caravel/galley done at 18 base hammers. Growth one turn sooner that way.

LowtherCastle
Jun 13, 2008, 10:22 AM
Archer first gets the caravel/galley done at 18 base hammers. Growth one turn sooner that way.I see. I was prioritizing meeting other AIs asap for the cash and potential happies. Either way's fine by me.

Gnejs
Jun 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
I see. I was prioritizing meeting other AIs asap for the cash and potential happies. Either way's fine by me.

Just pointing out the alternatives. I have no strong feelings either.

jesusin
Jun 13, 2008, 01:36 PM
Get rid of your headache before you do anything.

Done. Nothing like a siesta.




I'll be playing in 10 hours from now then. Cuzco, there we go!

LowtherCastle
Jun 13, 2008, 02:13 PM
I'll be playing in 10 hours from now then. Cuzco, there we go!Good luck!

Erkon
Jun 13, 2008, 03:04 PM
Done. Nothing like a siesta.
I'll be playing in 10 hours from now then. Cuzco, there we go!

Siesta from 4 pm to 8 pm? I want to live in Spain! But not tomorrow when Sweden will beat you and you will get 2 extra turns (taken from my turn set). Perhaps I'll join FiveAces instead and get payed to drink :lol:

Good luck jesusin. Just play.

BTW, I've just started my vacation and will not be able to look at the save regularly until about three weeks from now. I'll swap TS if necessary.

How about running 100% culture the final 10-20 turns with two cathedrals? Could we cover the missing tiles?

jesusin
Jun 13, 2008, 11:17 PM
Turnset report: T105-T115

T105.
Medic Axe moves 2NE, 3lb+Spe+Wor in Cuzco. CF Alex, our 3 units are 1SW of Cuzco now. Traded Optics+30g from Eliz for Educ, +1. Asoka would give HBR+310+WM for Paper, not yet. Broke Asoka's Incense for silver deal, traded stone to Asoka for Incense+2gpt, traded silver to KK for 4gpt.

T106.
Archer is born.
Eliz has whales to trade. I have sold our people happiness for 40 lousy coins, arggg.
Asoka has Engineering ready for trade.

EDIT: wounded Prat+2ndSpe are now in Cuzco. I could trade Furs to Eliz for her whales, just to reserve them.

Stopping point, as planned. I'd suggest Paper to Asoka for 310g now, Educ to Asoka for Engineering next turn. Or don't we want to make him so advanced?

Continuing...

Traded Sheep to Eliz for Whales. Traded Paper to Asoka for 310g, +2. Redeclared Alex, cats+medic moved into Cuzco, told JC to attack Athens, DoP KK->Alex+WM+60g for paper+optics, 2MAce+lb appear 1NE of Sparta. Axe+Arc leave our city. There are 10 lb in Washington. Clams are 51%.

T107.
Caravel is born. So is Nicolas Copernicus. 5.5 Alex' lb is 1NW of Cuzco, but won't be able to attack Cuzco-1N either. Told JC to attack Athens.



Stopping, I'm about to trade Engi for Educ. I could add Asoka on Alex for free. Should I?
I'm about declaring JC and bringing KK in. There are many Prats around Sparta travelling to Athens. It seems like an awful time to dow JC. Please look at the picture (cursor is in the easternmost Prat, there are another 2Cats1Spe bellow the Prats; KK has lb+5MAce+Cross+Cat+Spe+2Gal in Sparta).

Any advice?

Posts 2453-2474 refer to this situation.

Continuing...

Dow JC (cats+Axe teleport 1N), DoW KK->JC plus Feud for Educ, tell KK to attack Cuzco, Paper to Wash for 20g, +2. Asoka traded Engi for Educ (dowing JC too was doubtious and would have cost 230g). Arc and Axe upgraded in the silver tile. There are 3lb+Spe in York.

T108.
A Choko is born. Growth to pop12. We learn Liberalism and Astro. We start researching PP. Poor KK, his lb and 2 of his Maces are slightly wounded :). 2 Prats in sight, Cat+woundedCat+Wounded Spe 1NE of Sparta. All KK units are in the city. Alex lb has died, wounding a Cuzco lb. There is a Saladin's Caravel 1S of Sparta. I politely say hello. He has no religion. +1peace, -1 dowing friends. He knows everyone but Fred, and is pleased with JC and KK. We can't trade resources yet. We have astro and Paper on him. He would trade HBR, wouldn't trade Theo nor Music.

Stopping as per PPP. See now reason not to continue. Our shock Axe can take 1Prat at 89%, but would end up wounded and undefended inside Alex borders and next to another slightly wounded Prat. I am not attacking. The medic is going home for an upgrade.
As for MM, we can either keep the new Choko for 260bpt, or have one unhappy for 244bpt, or run 10% culture for 235bpt.



Kublai looks somewhat budist now. Gift 40g to saladin, he is pleased now. He has 1250 points while asoka and KK have 1000. Saladin trade WM+20 for WM, their continent runs NE-SW, with Saladin on a different landmass close to Asoka. We will be meeting Cyrus in 5 turns. Traded OB too. Now we can get his gold for our silver or our crabs. Break Washinton 2gpt for crabs deal, get Saladins Gold for our excess crabs. We are happy and 1 unhealthy. There are 5lb+1spe in London. The new pop works the sea. The 4 cats 1N of Cuzco are bored.


T109.

New Cat is born. Eliz is in Bureaucracy. Only 1 Prat in Alex borders left. KK has cross+slightly wounded Mace 2E of Sparta, but 4 Maces are still in Sparta, won't they move? KK has lost 2 Galleys, but has another 2 ready to finish the 2 of JC. Only Spe+3lb in Cuzco, one of the lb is wounded. I see Fred's 3lb+Sword 2E of Washington, they are coming for our city. I want peace with Fred.

Discussions till post 2504 belong here.

Continuing... CF Fred. Workers change cottaged tile to give KK some time to get to Cuzco. Axe attacks last Prat around Sparta, wins, 2.5 left. Medic Axe is a Mace now.

T110.
Imhotep is born. Saladin founds islam in Medina and converts. Asoka asks to trade maps, no thank you. A Cat is born. JC revolts to Theo, Bureau, serf. The Alex lb on the silks is protecting the resource! Alex Cat comes after our Axe. Only 4 Maces in Sparta, 1Mace+1Cross have important wounds. The only tile left for the Axe to retire is the hill, but maybe there is the Prat abandoning Cuzco on the other side... Climb to the hill, sheeet, there is 2woundedCats+Prat+Axe 1SE of the hill. No units from here to Cuzco. I don't dare to hope that the Maces in Sparta will join me in the hill before JC attacks. Crabs are 51% yet. Keep telling KK to go for Cuzco.
Unroaded cottage finished.

T111. Saladin in Buraeu and Theo. He circumnavigates, we were 1 tile short. :( A Cat is born. The Prat kills our brave Axe, who was trying to be an example to the lazy troops in Sparta. Will a KK unit ever approach Cuzco?
Cyrus met, he is more backwards than Saladin, he is confu, he knows Saladin and Asoka. He traded Marble for Dyes+1gpt.

I want to move our 4Cat+Mace+Choko S, to Antium, both defenders upgraded to Combat1. This could be considered as a desire to suicide by someone, so I am stopping before doing it. In 2 turns we will have another stack (Mace+Choko+1Cat) ready to attack at 1N Cuzco).


Stack moves 1W of Cuzco, there is JC's Prat+Spe on the iron.

T112. Asoka asks for Liberalism. Nop. Saladin asks to stop trading with Whasington, nop. Sistine's in York. New Choko is born. There are 3lb+2Spe+Prat+Wor in Cuzco. Collect 90g from our WM from Asoka, Eliz and Wash. KK gets Engi for free, what a lucky guy! From the iron our stack sees Prat+wounded Cat on the hill. Medic Mace+Cross 1W of Cuzco to help 1 Wor to catch up with the stack.

T113.
4 births: Cat, Bacon in Susa, Valmiki in MEcca, Virgil in Moscu. Pop13, the new one will go to a cottage. Alex has 2lb+2Cat on the Silk. W Silver lost. We can recover the other one in 2 turns. Clams are 50%. Met Louis, confu, even more backwards. I can sell copper to him for 2gpt or to Saladin for 3 gpt, but we will be meeting more AI soon, let's wait.

T114.
Cat is born. Clams 50%. Keep telling KK to go for Cuzco. Alex lb+2Cat 1NW of Cuzco. Cuzco borders expand, 20% defence, start bombarding. Louis has a zillion units in Paris. Musa met (somehow), he's the confu founder, he doesn't even have CS. JC has Axe+Spe+woundedCat 1SW of the banana. The second worker can move 2S of Cuzco, but as the stack won't wait for him and will move past JC units, he would get trapped there. But we can always move the medic Mace to his rescue, I'll do it. Running 10%culture wouldn't get us PP next turn, so keep 100%.

T115.
Kepler is born in London. Louis asks for 90g, we are not rich, you know? No, I'd rather have given him Drama. A Mace is born. We discover PP, start on SciMet. A GS (hopefully) will be born next turn. One Alex Cat has bombarded, the other has attacked and retired. We can bombard it down to 0% now. Cyrus money is up to 60. We can break the Silver deal. I would start roading with both Workers. I'd keep on moving our stack to Antium. But I'll leave all that to the next player. Good luck!

Autolog:

Murkyopolis begins: National Epic (5 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Archer (1 turns)
SGOTM07(China) and Alexander(Greece) have signed a peace treaty
Tech learned: Optics
Murkyopolis begins: Archer (1 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Caravel (2 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Archer (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Archer
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 106/460 (225 BC) [14-Jun-2008 07:08:43]
Murkyopolis begins: Caravel (2 turns)
SGOTM07(China) declares war on Alexander(Greece)
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) and Alexander(Greece) have signed a peace treaty
Murkyopolis finishes: Caravel
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 107/460 (200 BC) [14-Jun-2008 08:05:42]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Cho-Ko-Nu (2 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
SGOTM07(China) declares war on Julius Caesar(Rome)
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) declares war on Julius Caesar(Rome)
Tech learned: Feudalism
Tech learned: Engineering
Tech learned: Liberalism
Murkyopolis grows: 12
Murkyopolis finishes: Cho-Ko-Nu
Contact made: Arabian Empire
State Religion Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Hinduism' to 'Buddhism'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 108/460 (175 BC) [14-Jun-2008 11:10:24]
Tech learned: Astronomy
Research begun: Printing Press (8 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 109/460 (150 BC) [14-Jun-2008 12:05:31]
SGOTM07(China) and Frederick(Germany) have signed a peace treaty
While attacking in Mongolian territory at Sparta, Axeman defeats (2.45/5): Roman Praetorian (Prob Victory: 88.5%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
Islam founded in a distant land
State Religion Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Islam'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 110/460 (125 BC) [14-Jun-2008 16:13:51]
Murkyopolis begins: Cho-Ko-Nu (2 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
While defending in the wild near Berlin, Axeman loses to: Roman Praetorian (8.00/8) (Prob Victory: 3.8%)
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Washington(America), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Paganism' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 111/460 (100 BC) [14-Jun-2008 16:28:55]
Murkyopolis begins: Cho-Ko-Nu (2 turns)
Contact made: Persian Empire
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Maceman promoted: Combat I
Cho-Ko-Nu promoted: Combat I
Murkyopolis finishes: Cho-Ko-Nu
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 112/460 (75 BC) [14-Jun-2008 17:26:52]
Murkyopolis grows: 13
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 113/460 (50 BC) [14-Jun-2008 17:59:06]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Maceman (2 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Contact made: French Empire
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 114/460 (25 BC) [14-Jun-2008 18:13:43]
Murkyopolis begins: Maceman (2 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Contact made: Malinese Empire
Tech learned: Printing Press
Murkyopolis finishes: Maceman
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 115/460 (0 AD) [14-Jun-2008 18:31:22]
Research begun: Scientific Method (11 Turns)


Session turnlog

Here is your Session Turn Log from 250 BC to 1 AD:

Turn 105, 250 BC: You have made peace with Alexander!
Turn 105, 250 BC: You have discovered Optics!

Turn 106, 225 BC: You have declared war on Alexander!
Turn 106, 225 BC: Kublai Khan has made peace with Alexander!
Turn 106, 225 BC: Nicolaus Copernicus has been born in a far away land!
Turn 106, 225 BC: Asoka adopts Serfdom!

Turn 107, 200 BC: You have declared war on Julius Caesar!
Turn 107, 200 BC: Kublai Khan has declared war on Julius Caesar!
Turn 107, 200 BC: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 107, 200 BC: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 107, 200 BC: SGOTM07 is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 107, 200 BC: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 107, 200 BC: You have trained a Cho-Ko-Nu in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 107, 200 BC: Kublai Khan converts to Buddhism!

Turn 108, 175 BC: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 108, 175 BC: You have trained a Catapult in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Elizabeth adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Elizabeth adopts Serfdom!

Turn 109, 150 BC: You have made peace with Frederick!
Turn 109, 150 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman (6.00) vs Julius Caesar's Praetorian (4.23)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Combat Odds: 88.5%
Turn 109, 150 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 109, 150 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 109, 150 BC: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar's Praetorian is hit for 22 (60/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar's Praetorian is hit for 22 (38/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar's Praetorian is hit for 22 (16/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar's Praetorian is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman has defeated Julius Caesar's Praetorian!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Serfdom!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Theocracy!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Islam has been founded in Medina!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Saladin converts to Islam!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Imhotep has been born in a far away land!

Turn 110, 125 BC: Julius Caesar's Praetorian (8.80) vs SGOTM07's Axeman (5.39)
Turn 110, 125 BC: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 110, 125 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 110, 125 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 110, 125 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 110, 125 BC: (Combat: +75%)
Turn 110, 125 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman is hit for 20 (29/100HP)
Turn 110, 125 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman is hit for 20 (9/100HP)
Turn 110, 125 BC: SGOTM07's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 110, 125 BC: Julius Caesar's Praetorian has defeated SGOTM07's Axeman!
Turn 110, 125 BC: Saladin adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 110, 125 BC: Saladin adopts Theocracy!
Turn 110, 125 BC: Saladin is the first to circumnavigate the Globe!

Turn 111, 100 BC: You have trained a Cho-Ko-Nu in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Elizabeth has completed The Sistine Chapel!
Turn 111, 100 BC: Isabella adopts Vassalage!
Turn 111, 100 BC: Isabella adopts Serfdom!

Turn 112, 75 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Cyrus
Turn 112, 75 BC: Murkyopolis has grown to size 13
Turn 112, 75 BC: Francis Bacon has been born in Susa!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Valmiki has been born in Mecca!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Virgil has been born in Moscow!

Turn 113, 50 BC: Elizabeth has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 113, 50 BC: Washington adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 113, 50 BC: Washington adopts Serfdom!
Turn 113, 50 BC: Your land area: 23 (4.15%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 114, 25 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Louis XIV
Turn 114, 25 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Louis XIV
Turn 114, 25 BC: Louis XIV has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 114, 25 BC: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Cuzco to 17%!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Cuzco to 14%!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Cuzco to 11%!
Turn 114, 25 BC: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 114, 25 BC: You have trained a Maceman in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Johannes Kepler has been born in London!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Alexander adopts Vassalage!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Alexander adopts Serfdom!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Your land area: 23 (4.15%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 115, 1 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington, Asoka, Cyrus, Mansa Musa
Turn 115, 1 AD: Can Trade Open Borders with: Mansa Musa

klarius
Jun 13, 2008, 11:39 PM
We cannot hold edu long from Asoka, so do the trade.
Can't we trade sheep to Liz for whale. Health isn't too bad AFAIR.

Edit:
After selling paper to Asoka, I would also sell it cheap to Washington for attitude.

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 12:03 AM
We all missed the whales. No feudalism to asoka. And he must not learn rifling.

EDIT: Do the trade (paper + edu) but don't include feudalism and try to get feudalism (EDIT2). I don't think Asoka will reach Rifling within 30 turns.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 12:30 AM
Log updated.

Have problems attaching. There are JC's 5Prats, 3Cats, Axe, Spe between Sparta and Cuzco.

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 12:37 AM
We could delay JC (until we can get KK back to Hindu, if he converts as I expect) and go for Hamburg, though there we urgently need defenders again.

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 12:39 AM
Go for it! KK has melee killers like maces and crossbows.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 12:41 AM
Image attached.

I will remember sell paper to Wash for 20g next.

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 12:42 AM
I would consider delaying the war against JC for one turn. But don't bring in Asoka!!!

EDIT: Are the unit(s) 1 NE of Sparta injured, or will it move towards Athens IBT? We don't want it bumped onto the hill when Sparta gets out of revolt.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 12:44 AM
Asoka won't give us Feud in top of Engi, but he would dow Alex. We don't wnat that, do we? +1 shared war with others.

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 12:50 AM
Asoka won't give us Feud in top of Engi, but he would dow Alex. We don't wnat that, do we? +1 shared war with others.

We don't want Asoka to start building units now! The best timing would be about 4 turns before we DoW him so that he can empty his lands from loose units without him building many new one.

I misunderstood your previous post, so I updated my response above.

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 12:55 AM
If KK doesn't dow this turn it will mean a delay of at least 5 turns, right? Or can we convert KK back to Hindu any sooner?

LowtherCastle
Jun 14, 2008, 12:56 AM
How about if we look at KK"s attitude points toward JC and see if converting back to Hinduism wil take him to Friendly or not.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 01:01 AM
I would consider delaying the war against JC for one turn. But don't bring in Asoka!!!

EDIT: Are the unit(s) 1 NE of Sparta injured, or will it move towards Athens IBT? We don't want it bumped onto the hill when Sparta gets out of revolt.

The cat is wounded, Prat and Spe aren't.


KK is +3 pleased towards JC.

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 01:02 AM
If KK doesn't dow this turn it will mean a delay of at least 5 turns, right? Or can we convert KK back to Hindu any sooner?

Didn't think of that! A five turn delay is not acceptable. That will certainly delay our victory :cry:

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 01:09 AM
Asoka->Alex, I don't see a reason.
But how about Asoka->JC (after DoW).

LowtherCastle
Jun 14, 2008, 01:14 AM
KK is +3 pleased towards JC.KK only gives JC +1 hidden according to klarius' chart, so how much will he give for Hinduism off the bat?

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 01:21 AM
If KK doesn't dow this turn it will mean a delay of at least 5 turns, right? Or can we convert KK back to Hindu any sooner?
If he really does what I think, yes to the delay.
But, we could convert JC to Hindu instead :D. DoWing him then will cost an attitude point with Asoka, but who cares.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 01:32 AM
So, I'm going to dow JC this turn, bring KK in, get Engi and maybe a dow on JC from Asoka. JC units can go through Asoka's land anyway.

Is that ok with you?
Or would you prefer me to wait 1 turn to do all that? Engi included?

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 01:32 AM
If he really does what I think, yes to the delay.
But, we could convert JC to Hindu instead :D. DoWing him then will cost an attitude point with Asoka, but who cares.

Yes, this is much better! JC gets a turn of anarchy too.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 01:44 AM
Yes, this is much better! JC gets a turn of anarchy too.

Converting JC is quite cheap (130g).

In exchange for paper he would convert to hindu, revolt to pacifism and give us 30g.

If that's what we want, maybe trading for Engi right now and then waiting 2 turns (not 1) to dow JC is the best idea.

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 01:54 AM
Converting JC is quite cheap (130g).

In exchange for paper he would convert to hindu, revolt to pacifism and give us 30g.

If that's what we want, maybe trading for Engi right now and then waiting 2 turns (not 1) to dow JC is the best idea.

Why 2 turns? We want to finish JC asap, before he gets xbows and maces.
Also not good if JC can attack Sparta from inside Alex culture.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 02:29 AM
Why 2 turns? We want to finish JC asap, before he gets xbows and maces.
Also not good if JC can attack Sparta from inside Alex culture.

In 2 turns JC's units will be closer to Athens than to Sparta or to Cuzco, so I hope they will not come back then.

Will dowing right now make JC suicide immediately in Sparta?

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 02:40 AM
Will dowing right now make JC suicide immediately in Sparta?
Not sure what they will do. The units in Greece have the possibility to pillage also. Also there's the question if these are attack or city attack units.

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 03:22 AM
I support bribing JC to Hindu. I don't know what is best regarding KK => JC: this turn, next or in two turns.

Get engineering from Asoka this turn. Don't bring him into any war :please:

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 03:31 AM
Report updated here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6922955&postcount=2451

Waiting for your input for some 15 minutes.

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 03:41 AM
Saladin:
Gift gold (up to 40)->pleased. Then trade for his map (paper for more fair trade later when the money wears off).
Sell map around, if somebody has gold.
OB.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 03:48 AM
Saladin:
Gift gold (up to 40)->pleased. Then trade for his map (paper for more fair trade later when the money wears off).
Sell map around, if somebody has gold.
OB.

Ok. There I go.

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 03:48 AM
Double cross post :)
Then look again for resources.

FiveAces
Jun 14, 2008, 03:52 AM
excellent play so far jesusin. i see no reason to stop either. how much gold does saladin have? i think i would not keep this choku and have an unhappy face. you should be either to trade a resource, give the silver to liz for whales or even keep the next choku if needed.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 04:25 AM
Report updated here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2451

I want peace with Fred. Save attached.

FiveAces
Jun 14, 2008, 04:31 AM
can't we get some exp for our choku before we DoP fred? Maybe even for a cat too if we can damage that stack enough with choku and mace if we have it in time?

EDIT jesusin, your link is bad and no save that i can see

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 04:38 AM
I would wait with Fred and look if you can get him to suicide some of his units.

Now I would attack the praet with our axe. That should take the "danger" away from Sparta, which may free some KK units.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 04:50 AM
I would wait with Fred and look if you can get him to suicide some of his units.

Now I would attack the praet with our axe. That should take the "danger" away from Sparta, which may free some KK units.

20% chances of victory for our Mace. I don't see the point in killing wandering Fred units anyway. I don't like the risk of losing a unit in a pointless attempt.

88% victory chances for our Axe. Freeing KK units is well worth it.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 04:53 AM
EDIT jesusin, your link is bad and no save that i can see

:confused: I have just downloaded the save from my link just ok

FiveAces
Jun 14, 2008, 04:54 AM
put the new upgraded mace and the cat from murky on the deer forest. put the choku and the next cat from murky on the forest next to NY. get 2 cats to 5xp. don't DoP.

Edit: I would suicide 1 cat into that stack (pref when it's on a flatlands tile between the forests) in hopes it either retreats or wins. at worst you will then be able to pick off the remaining units hopefully with cats to get to 5xp. IMO it is worth losing 1 cat (which may withdraw anyway) to get 2 more to 5xp.

FiveAces
Jun 14, 2008, 04:56 AM
:confused: I have just downloaded the save from my link just ok

yes it's fine, i posted before you added it.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 05:03 AM
While we are at war with Fred, he is building units.

put the new upgraded mace and the cat from murky on the deer forest. put the choku and the next cat from murky on the forest next to NY. get 2 cats to 5xp. don't DoP.



That would delay the trip of our units towards JC. I am against. More opinions?

FiveAces
Jun 14, 2008, 05:11 AM
While we are at war with Fred, he is building units.



That would delay the trip of our units towards JC. I am against. More opinions?

Not by much. Fred will be there in 2 turns. It will be over one way or another in 3. We have all the units we need in Cuzco already. I think getting 2 cats to 5xp is worth 3 turns - in fact the bombardment increase alone might make up for it.

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 05:25 AM
I am ok with a CF with Freddie. Better to be able to bring down Cuzco to one wounded defender asap.

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 05:28 AM
JC is on the critical line, not Fred. KK needs our units at Antium, promoted or not. Please, please, hurry our units to the Roman homeland to speed up the conquest of JC. If that means DoP with Fred, so be it. Cuzco is only the first step. Then comes Antium and Rome, Madrid and Asoka etc.

I'm afraid that you will get bored with my repeated rant, but I will keep saying the above :D. If I could, I would each turn open up jesusin's diplomatic screen and ask him to attack Cuzcu, then Antium etc. And if needed I would bribe him to DoP Fred :lol:

Erkon
Jun 14, 2008, 05:35 AM
jesusin, did you bribe JC into revolt? I could not see him switch to Pacifism.

And I suggest you move the axe in Sparta up on the hill to watch KK movements from the south. You have a better feeling if this is dangerous of course....

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 05:37 AM
What would it take to set Saladin on Asoka or Lizzie?

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 05:40 AM
While we are at war with Fred, he is building units.

No! That's an old war, long demoted to WARPLAN_ATTACKED (remember the always war lessons :lol:).

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 05:45 AM
What would it take to set Saladin on Asoka or Lizzie?
Friendliness from Saladin. No dice. :cry:

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 05:55 AM
If I could, I would each turn open up jesusin's diplomatic screen and ask him to attack Cuzcu, then Antium etc.
Do you mean raze Cuzco? We may end up with having no city at all there then.

Gnejs
Jun 14, 2008, 06:13 AM
Friendliness from Saladin. No dice. :cry:

And Lizzie+Asoka on Saladin?

klarius
Jun 14, 2008, 06:56 AM
And Lizzie+Asoka on Saladin?
Not w/o us first declaring, because of power.
Anyway why? A phony war is the worst thing, if we want to attack soon.
Unit building for at least 10 turns and no chance to suicide. Tech rate is not reduced much, if at all and military techs are preferred.

FiveAces
Jun 14, 2008, 06:58 AM
ok CF with Freddie when necessary and get the units to JC-land asap. we'll get the cats xp on cuzco.

LowtherCastle
Jun 14, 2008, 07:09 AM
JC is on the critical line, not Fred. KK needs our units at Antium, promoted or not. Please, please, hurry our units to the Roman homeland to speed up the conquest of JC. If that means DoP with Fred, so be it. Cuzco is only the first step. Then comes Antium and Rome, Madrid and Asoka etc.I agree with this. I see no benefit from suiciding any of our units against Fred out in the open. All units should wear blinders and serve only the purpose of capturing CUzco, Antium, etc. Attacking JC praet with our axe is an exception, obviously because freeing KK's Spartans for Cuzco is right on our critical path.

Be prepared to trade Cyrus for his dyes, if possible. Give him our marble if you need to. It would be great if we could get an agri product from someone for double health too.

EDIT: Guys, since Cuzco is not falling immediately and we already have engineering for fast worker movement and lots of happiness, maybe we should have our workers build as many as three cottages. No, not an obsession with cottages, but just a desire to grow fast and get some benefit in the process. Better a coin than a hammer. BUT, since we don't need any new cottage for a few turns, it would be better to not finish the current cottage, rather leave it for last, so the workers can move south faster, whne the time comes, already being on a road. EDIT2: We could also build a farm on the grass south of the marble, if we want even more food.

jesusin
Jun 14, 2008, 08:01 AM
jesusin, did you bribe JC into revolt? I could not see him switch to Pacifism.


No, I didn't. That was on the wait 1/2 turns before dowing plan, where KK wouldn't dow JC unless we turned JC hindu.

If there was another reason to want JC hindu, I have missed our chance forever.

JC is on the critical line, not Fred. KK needs our units at Antium, promoted or not. Please, please, hurry our units to the Roman homeland to speed up the conquest of JC. If that means DoP with Fred, so be it. Cuzco is only the first step. Then comes Antium and Rome, Madrid and Asoka etc.

I'm afraid that you will get bored with my repeated rant, but I will keep saying the above :D. If I could, I would each turn open up jesusin's diplomatic screen and ask him to attack Cuzcu, then Antium etc. And if needed I would bribe him to DoP Fred :lol:

I am easily bribable :mischief: ;)
You have expressed it better than me. I'll continue with immediate dow.