View Full Version : SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters


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LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 12:19 PM
Erkon, am I required to listen to any more of Gnejs' drivel, now that he swooped on Post #3000? :spank:

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 12:24 PM
Brief PPP for post-PA dow on Fred (Asoka) aka "the keep all options open"-strategy


T134:
Move southern units to Madrid for heal and upgrade
Move W units to MurkyLand for upgrading
Catstack+Mace+Choko positions themselves 1 NW of Madrid (1 move to get into position to bombard Kyoto, 2 moves to get into position to bombard Hamburg)
Bribe Asoka to DOW Alex+150 gold+WM for Astro
CF Alex to reset WW
Bribe KK to DOW Monty. NOOO, KK hasn't met Monty... :(

T135:
CF Monty

T136:
Communism in, sign PA with KK

T137:
Chemistry learned
Upgrade chokos to grenadiers / gift to KK as appropriate


T138:
DOW Fred
Move to 1 NW Madrid except for two units that go 1N Madrid

T139:
Pillage 1NW Madrid, move on to 1 SE Hamburg ()
Pillage 1N Madrid
Pillaging is to keep KK's pillagers moving...

T140:
Bombard Hamburg to 0%, pillage 1SE Hamburg etc.
Move Grenadiers to Dye

The strategy is to pillage every tile SE Hamburg except for the dyes, to make KK's pillagers go straight for it. Since we move before Kublai we can pillage a tile before he does, so his pillagers will not stop.

T141:
Redline Hamburg using grenadiers + a cat or two

IBT: KK captures Hamburg


This variant and the DOW Asoka variant are identical up to the PA. We are then free to decide who to go after, based on what we see from KK.

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 12:30 PM
Erkon, am I required to listen to any more of Gnejs' drivel, now that he swooped on Post #3000? :spank:

Muahahahahahahaha!!! :lol:

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 12:46 PM
Okay this is it, best-case scenario
Turn# DoW T134 DoW T136 Grens
----------------------------------- --------------------------- ---------
T134 KK arrive H.SE, mv to H.3SW ...
T135 KK mvs to H.2SW
T136 KK arrive H.SW KK mvs to H.2SE & H.3SW
T138 more of the same KK arrive H.SE, mvs to 2SW mv to H.2SE
T139 more of the same KK arrive H.SW mv to H.SE
T140 >>>Red-line<<<

So the question is, if we wait till T136, will KK get someone next to Hamburg in time?

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 12:53 PM
So the question is, if we wait till T136, will KK get someone next to Hamburg in time?

I think so, because his units in Madrid will be next to a tile that can be pillaged, but once he moves onto it we pillage that tile. So he looks again and sees another adjacent tile that can be pillaged. Rinse and repeat.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 12:59 PM
Brief PPP for post-PA dow on Fred (Asoka) aka "the keep all options open"-strategyAnyone like this?

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 01:00 PM
I think so, because his units in Madrid will be next to a tile that can be pillaged, but once he moves onto it we pillage that tile. So he looks again and sees another adjacent tile that can be pillaged. Rinse and repeat.Well, it is a clever idea. I'll hand that to you. Wouldn't napalm be a lot easier? :scan:

Seriously, after we have a PA, I wonder if putting our unit on teh marble would send his pillager somewhere else?

Otherwise, if we're going to do it your way, we want to pillage the marble and Madrid N NW on this turn so KK's pillage path is direct to Hamburg, right? I bet even the marble is enough, because the cottage hill is probably higher priority than the grass road at N NW.

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 01:19 PM
Well, it is a clever idea. I'll hand that to you. Wouldn't napalm be a lot easier? :scan:

Seriously, after we have a PA, I wonder if putting our unit on teh marble would send his pillager somewhere else?

Otherwise, if we're going to do it your way, we want to pillage the marble and Madrid N NW on this turn so KK's pillage path is direct to Hamburg, right?

Yes, this is even more clever. But I guess we need to pillage the roads as well though, which is bad news if we decide to dow Asoka instead. No, we need a pillageable tile next to Madrid to ensure that KK's units get going...

From my look at the SDK (CvUnitAI.cpp), here is the priority order for various units:

COUNTER
1. Guard city
2. Load onto assault ship
3. Attack city (range 1, 30 threshold)
4. Adjacent unit (range 1, 40 threshold)
5. Group with ATTACK_CITY unit
6. Group with ATTACK unit
7. Group with PILLAGE unit
8. Pillage, range(2)
9. ...

PILLAGE
1. Guard city
2. Heal
3. Attack city (range 1, 55 threshold)
4. Attack unit (range 1, 65 threshold)
5. Pillage, range(1)
6. Load onto assault ship
7. Heal
8. Pillage, range(3)
9. Heal
10. Group with pillage unit
11. ...

ATTACK_CITY
1. Guard city
2. Heal
3. Attack city (range 1, 100 threshold)
4. Bombard city
5. Attack city (range 1, 70 threshold)
6. Load onto assault ship
7. Attack city (range 1, 30 threshold)
8. Attack unit if collateral damage (range 1)
9. Attack unit (range 1, 60 threshold)
10. Heal
11. Heal/retreat
12. ?
13. Target city
14. ...


ATTACK - there are two "profiles" here, I have listed both though I have no idea which is applicable
Profile 1
1. Guard city
2. Heal
3. Group with settler
4. Group with settler
5. Airlift
6. Guard city
7. Attack city (range 1, 55 threshold)
8. Attack unit (range 1, 65 threshold)
9. Load into settler ship or assault ship
10. Pillage (range 1)
11. Heal
12. Attack city (range 1, 35 threshold)
13. Attack unit (range 1, 45 threshold)
14. Pillage (range 3)

Profile 2
1. Attack city (range 4, 30 threshold)
2. Attack unit (range 2, 40 threshold)
3. Heal
4. Group with attack city/attack unit
5. Target city
6. ...



If KK has a pillage unit in Madrid when we dow it should work (some counters may attach to it also). Or if he has an attack_city unit that doesn't get sent off to some assault ship. I guess we could avoid this by gifting more such units than he has ships.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 01:26 PM
No, we need a pillageable tile next to Madrid to ensure that KK's units get going...There is a pillageable road--Madrid NW and NW NW. We pillage the marble and road. He goes NW. We pillage it. He goes NW again (cottage hill higher priority than N road grass). We red-line, he captures.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 01:33 PM
Very interesting. Is range 1 = 1 tile or 1 move, do you know?

Another question: If he has two ATTACK_CITY units, stacked in twos (4 units total) and only needs three for defense, but has both assigned to Guard City, and we gift a COUNTER, which gets stacked onto one of those two stacks, will the other stack be free?

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 01:41 PM
That's odd. I thought klarius said PILLAGE never attack. I wonder if there's more code governing this stuff.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 01:46 PM
Thought: I bet Asoka's fast Serfdom workers are all out of work right now. If we don't DoW Asoka on anyone, maybe he'll get that rice hooked up for KK to pillage. ;)

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 01:53 PM
Very interesting. Is range 1 = 1 tile or 1 move, do you know?

Another question: If he has two ATTACK_CITY units, stacked in twos (4 units total) and only needs three for defense, but has both assigned to Guard City, and we gift a COUNTER, which gets stacked onto one of those two stacks, will the other stack be free?
Range 1 means attack this turn.

Stacked units don't count, only group heads. If all goes wrong, KK can guard a city with 2 stacks of 10 units.

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 01:56 PM
That's odd. I thought klarius said PILLAGE never attack. I wonder if there's more code governing this stuff.
Pillage don't target cities from distance and by that were useless for Cuzco, where there is nothing to pillage to get to the city.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 02:08 PM
Range 1 means attack this turn.

Stacked units don't count, only group heads. If all goes wrong, KK can guard a city with 2 stacks of 10 units.Excellent, that means we can bait Hamburg from the forest tiles.

So we may want to gift KK units out of cities, whenever possible, right?

Erkon
Jun 24, 2008, 02:17 PM
Erkon, am I required to listen to any more of Gnejs' drivel, now that he swooped on Post #3000? :spank:

Rats! Just play, ok?!

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 02:30 PM
That list is extremely helpful, Gnejs. Thanks.

Here are my initial conclusions:
1. I won't gift any units till the turn after KK gets Astro, so he can assign other units to fill the assault galleon slots.
2. Gifted chokos will probably get attached to defending stacks in Madrid.
3. Madrid is the home of a religion, so needs 3 city guards (right?), so probably the two CITY_ATTACK stacks and the mace will go guard it. The pike will be free to do whatever it does. Conclusion: I'll probably gift the JC cat at just the right moment and hope it sets Hamburg as a city target.
4. Hamburg is next because it sets up both Kyoto (Pillage Range 1) and Bombay (Pillage Range 2 & Attack Range 3) perfectly.
5. Keep Asoka at peace till he roads the rice.
6. We want to create a domino effect with red-lining cities, especially if we figure out KK has a Profile 2 ATTACK unit (could that lone pike be one?).
7. If we discover a Profile 2 ATTACK unit, then we want to use it for Bombay-Delhi and York-London, the two largest and most distant cities.


Question:
Is there any way we can try to keep assault ships at home, such as targetting inland cities or whatever?

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 02:35 PM
Excellent, that means we can bait Hamburg from the forest tiles.

If the odds are too bad, no unit will attack. And the final odds threshold is influenced largely by adjacent potential attackers, not attackers that can reach the target within 1 turn.


So we may want to gift KK units out of cities, whenever possible, right?
Well yes, but that will not be possible most of the time and even then it doesn't help much. A unit doesn't have to be in a city to guard, but has just to be able to reach it (if the bsearch flag is set, which is the case for one of the guardCity calls at least). Also grouping, the favorite sports of counter units can mean a looong movement.

Erkon
Jun 24, 2008, 02:43 PM
Anyone like this?

I like anything that exclude suiciding chokus. First upgrade to grens, then attack.
If we have a plan to capture Hamburg in 5 turns, I support it.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 03:03 PM
If the odds are too bad, no unit will attack. And the final odds threshold is influenced largely by adjacent potential attackers, not attackers that can reach the target within 1 turn.My plan was our chokos in a forest. There should be no units in any adjacent tiles on that turn.

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 03:15 PM
My plan was our chokos in a forest. There should be no units in any adjacent tiles on that turn.
Which means a lb will not attack. W/o several of his units adjacent the final odds threshold will be 80-90% for Fred.
Even vanilla doesn't calculate the odds that wrong that a lb will attack.
Adjacent to Hamburg with 4 or 5 counting units adjacent the final odds threshold will be well below 50% which is in the range that vanilla will calculate as odds.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 03:24 PM
Which means a lb will not attack. W/o several of his units adjacent the final odds threshold will be 80-90% for Fred.
Even vanilla doesn't calculate the odds that wrong that a lb will attack.
Adjacent to Hamburg with 4 or 5 counting units adjacent the final odds threshold will be well below 50% which is in the range that vanilla will calculate as odds.How about on a plains tile?

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 03:26 PM
Okay PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829) updated again. The part about bait is tentative, pending a workable solution. Otherwise, those units stay a Murky.

Let me know what you all think...

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 03:36 PM
Okay PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829) updated again. The part about bait is tentative, pending a workable solution. Otherwise, those units stay a Murky.

Let me know what you all think...

Why redeclare on Monty after PA?
Otherwise it looks great!

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 03:39 PM
Will Asoka improve the rice if at war with Alex?

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 03:39 PM
How about on a plains tile?
The big difference is his units adjacent, not the defense bonus. No units adjacent means that the final odds threshold is 2 times the threshold on the call to anyAttack, which is in the 40-45% range for the units we expect.

3 of his potential attackers adjacent mean the final threshold equals the input threshold. More and the threshold gets even lower.
The formula is:
final threshold = 6/(adjacent attackers + 3) * input threshold
The "odds" which are compared to this threshold are calculated roughly as:
attacker strength/(attacker strength + defender strength) + random(8%)
here all the bonuses are taken into account in the usual manner.

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 03:45 PM
Will Asoka improve the rice if at war with Alex?
Sure. Workers aren't influenced by war or peace just by nearby enemies.

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 03:48 PM
Sure. Workers aren't influenced by war or peace just by nearby enemies.

Then I suggest to bribe Asoka on Alex on T134 for Astro.

Erkon
Jun 24, 2008, 03:49 PM
LC, ppp looks good. Good luck!

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 03:59 PM
Well, I still think we are wasting an opportunity. I don't care about the choks at all. That are suicide (or gift KK) units and should not be upgraded at all. If you want to upgrade something build CRII maces.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 04:06 PM
Well, I still think we are wasting an opportunity. I don't care about the choks at all. That are suicide (or gift KK) units and should not be upgraded at all. If you want to upgrade something build CRII maces.Well, while zou were gone this weekend I asked you a question that you didn't get around to answering. You described sending all the units to Hamburg as overkill. I don't see how we can possibly red-line Hamburg with what we have available. Can you describe in detail how you see the capture of Hamburg happening? *By detail, I mean the military side of it. This unit attacks first, then this one, and these are the conseuqences....

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 04:43 PM
Well, while zou were gone this weekend I asked you a question that you didn't get around to answering. You described sending all the units to Hamburg as overkill. I don't see how we can possibly red-line Hamburg with what we have available. Can you describe in detail how you see the capture of Hamburg happening? *By detail, I mean the military side of it. This unit attacks first, then this one, and these are the conseuqences....
All these plans are obsolete upon contact with the enemy. :eek:
But I wanted to move in with everything except the 2 most wounded choks (gift to KK). Maybe the group east of Hamburg attracts an attack. Maybe Fred sends out a pillager or 2 to Berlin.
If KK is coming he should not be adjacent to Hamburg T135, because he targeted either dyes for pillage or the NE forest for attack. So T135 knock down defenses and collect everything E Hamburg. Some units may heal then for a turn. If KK is adjacent T136 throw every thing necessary at Hamburg, else heal.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 05:05 PM
Why redeclare on Monty after PA?To reset KK's war status after PA. Don't want KK building for 2 turns.

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 05:10 PM
To reset KK's war status after PA. Don't want KK building for 2 turns.

Heavens forbid. :)

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 05:20 PM
To reset KK's war status after PA. Don't want KK building for 2 turns.
Well, better look first. If he's building useful things, like badly needed lighthouses (Tiwanaku, Karakorum) maybe let him. Also look where his assault sea group is. Maybe that could help somewhere, if it's not going for the long journey to Teotihuacan.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 05:27 PM
All these plans are obsolete upon contact with the enemy. :eek:
But I wanted to move in with everything except the 2 most wounded choks (gift to KK). Maybe the group east of Hamburg attracts an attack. Maybe Fred sends out a pillager or 2 to Berlin.
If KK is coming he should not be adjacent to Hamburg T135, because he targeted either dyes for pillage or the NE forest for attack. So T135 knock down defenses and collect everything E Hamburg. Some units may heal then for a turn. If KK is adjacent T136 throw every thing necessary at Hamburg, else heal.Okay, what units do you realistically expect to have left over at Hamburg, after capturing it? In other words, when would you be ready to launch teh next attack on Kyoto and BOmbay?

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 05:59 PM
Okay, what units do you realistically expect to have left over at Hamburg, after capturing it? In other words, when would you be ready to launch teh next attack on Kyoto and BOmbay?
Depends :). But it wouldn't be much probably: 2-3 cats, probably the mace, 1-2 choks. Everything badly wounded. But new units coming up from the capital. Move in on Bombay maybe 5 turns after capture of Hamburg.

klarius
Jun 24, 2008, 06:20 PM
If you want to do girlie healing/upgrading instead of manly attack, I still like it more to declare on Fred and set Asoka on Alex and Fred, but not KK initially. With our units away Fred should send out some troops towards Bombay. Probably they meet a stack of Asoka for some slaughter.

Edit:
Or even leave Asoka out of the Fred war and let Fred target Murky and kill his units in the open.

LowtherCastle
Jun 24, 2008, 07:28 PM
We need to combine our brilliant ideas.
1. klarius' idea to use the 2t culture delay.
2. Gnejs' idea to leave a pillage trail to the next target.
What's stopping us from #1 for Hamburg? Our army is in a shambles. We need to have a fresh stack waiting before the 2t delay, that is, right when we capture the previous city. This means we need a fresh stack and probably 2 units (lbs) for city guards.

Well, we missed our chance for Hamburg. So be it. (Actually, we haven't really had a chance to have such a stack yet, but from now on we can.) We won't miss it this time. We want a stack waiting to attack Kyoto as soon as Hamburg falls. I will have ~6 upgraded grens in Madrid and 4 ready to upgrade in Hamburg, along with 2 new lbms. Plus all those cats. Kyoto is dead meat. The turns we lose waiting for Hamburg, we'll gain back in capturing Kyoto, and then we'll bullldozer along.

With that in mind, I offer you my latest PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829) instead of your morning newspaper. ;)

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 11:34 PM
With that in mind, I offer you my latest PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829) instead of your morning newspaper. ;)

Any chance of a modification that delays the DoW until after the PA? :)

Gnejs
Jun 24, 2008, 11:45 PM
To elaborate: there doesn't seem to be any combat until after the PA anyway.
And Asoka will improve the rice even if we set him on Alex on T134. I am not sure it is a good idea to set him on Fred later. That will only cause him to have lots of units in the Hamburg-Kyoto area at the wrong time.

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 12:57 AM
With that in mind, I offer you my latest PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829) instead of your morning newspaper. ;)
I'm tired of reading PPPs. :coffee:
I want to read a turn log. :drool:

FiveAces
Jun 25, 2008, 01:15 AM
Ok with PPP. Looks like you guys did a lot of good work last night while I was sleeping. Good luck!

jesusin
Jun 25, 2008, 01:27 AM
With that in mind, I offer you my latest PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829) instead of your morning newspaper. ;)

We are not chopping, are we?

Go ahead. Good luck.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:33 AM
Any chance of a modification that delays the DoW until after the PA? :)What benefits do you see?

I thought about that for quite a while. I would do it if it enabled me to get more chokos to Madrid, but they don't quite make it and will get teleported backwards.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:37 AM
We are not chopping, are we?Yes, jesusin, I'm afraid we are. But only finishing the 2 pre-chops to get the tiles making hammers asap for grens. Those two pre-chops get us an extra 3hpt. I'm putting them into the Globe Theatre. Otherwise it's more wkshps.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:39 AM
To elaborate: there doesn't seem to be any combat until after the PA anyway.
And Asoka will improve the rice even if we set him on Alex on T134. I am not sure it is a good idea to set him on Fred later. That will only cause him to have lots of units in the Hamburg-Kyoto area at the wrong time.Okay, I didn't see the new page of posts.

I'd at least like to see the workers appear at the rice before I DoW him to Fred. They can arrive in 1 turn from all Asoka tiles except 1. :)

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 01:41 AM
What benefits do you see?

I thought about that for quite a while. I would do it if it enabled me to get more chokos to Madrid, but they don't quite make it and will get teleported backwards.
We keep the Asoka option open.
What drawbacks do you see? :)

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 02:00 AM
What drawbacks do you see? :)We keep the Asoka option open. (j/k :))

For unit movement, there's no difference that I can find. The one drawback that concerns me is that Fred might send those units klarius was talking about to Kyoto rather than toward us. That simply must not happen. I worship improving that rice. :religion:

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 02:10 AM
I want to read a turn log. :drool:Your wish is my command.

I got it and Fred's about to get it...

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 02:12 AM
We keep the Asoka option open. (j/k :))

For unit movement, there's no difference that I can find. The one drawback that concerns me is that Fred might send those units klarius was talking about to Kyoto rather than toward us. That simply must not happen. I worship improving that rice. :religion:

He won't if he is not at war with Asoka.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 02:21 AM
Your wish is my command.

I got it and Fred's about to get it...

Ok, good luck!

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 02:24 AM
He won't if he is not at war with Asoka.Ture. That's an option I want to keep open--being able to send Asoka on Fred asap.

Anyway, thanks for all the discussion and patience, guys!

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 02:37 AM
LC Turnset Report T134-144

T134 475ad
CHoko moves from Cuzco NE NE to Kyoto W NW
Kyoto has:lb CGI
caravel
galley
war eleph CII
cat barrage I
galley
war eleph CI
xbow CI
lb CGI
lb
pikeLouis XIV gifts us silks.
Wkrs and units make moves per PPP
Extort 10g from Fred and DoW, WW gone
Liz still Friendly at +10
Set build to cat at 22hpt for overflow (ATTACK_CITY better for gifting defense because it won't stack to anyone and has Guard City at 1st priority)
Trade Guilds to KK for WMs and some gold

IBT:
Fred moves Sword, 3 CI lbms NW NW !!! Must be defended with only 3 lbms.
Kyoto and Hamburg borders expand as expected
Asoka has GP :(
Asoka sends NO WORKERS to rice, the Fink
Monty is talking to us again
Delhi has:2 CGI lbs
4 lbs
1 mace
1 CI pike
1 barrI cat
1 CRI cat
1 caravel
1 galley
1 settler
1 Great Merchant (waiting for a golden age?)
2 FAST FRIGGIN' WORKERSJC SoD goes NW N to dyes

T135 WE Update:Sal hates Mansa
KK hates (ain't telling)
Cyrus hates (Sal?)
Asoka hates Alex
Hatty hates Monty
Liz hates Alex
MM hates Sal
W hates Alex
Louis hates Asoka
Catty hates no one(?)
JC hates W
Alex hates --
Monty hates --

T135 500ad
move units, wkrs
set build to cat again
Asoka will accept Astro for DoW Fred or Astro +130g for DoW Alex.
I decide to set Asoka on Fred, see what happens

IBT:
Fred's stack vanishes. I fear it went home... :(
JC's SoD goes into Asoka's land
Delhi sent a mace/cat south, defended by 6lbs/pike/galleon
Bombay sent lb/mace/pike/cat south and is defended by 2lb/mace/cat !!!
Kyoto has a pair of galleons now, units stay put.
Liz has Astro.

T136 520ad
Communism done!
CF Alex and Monty
Revolt to State Property and Theocracy (1t)
We are at Friendly with Asoka and KK. KK is running Theocracy, so better to leave him in Buddhism.
Sal drops to -5 with us.
Sign PA with KK. Our Madrid units teleport to Madrid NW (automatic closed borders with KK :lol:)
Sal up to -3.
KK switches research from Banking to Chemistry.
Now we can see all over the place. Fred did indeed send his SoD back to Berlin, fkitall. And he only had two defenders. I even decided to let him send them 1 more turn ahead, but then forgot when I did that shick with Asoka.

I'm taking a break. The save is attacked below.

>>>>> COntinuing after posts #3055-3069 <<<<<<<

I trade Paper to Sal for some gold and Cautious. We need Banking soon and Liz won't trade it anymore.
Trade Paper to Cyrus for gold for same reason.
MOve our units to Madrid. No enemy units are within two tiles of Fred. Maybe we'll get lucky...

IBT:
And lucky we did get!!!
Fred's Stack of DOOOOM decided Madrid was appetizing. KK's pike died nobly and KK's fromation mace beat down on an lb, leaving 1.5 lbs and the sword. I'll have to attack them or they'll retreat, because Asoka has moved 5 units to within 2 tiles, a lone sword ATTACKer that may pillage the dyes next, and the four-stack went to the forest, so I assume they're headed straight for Hamburg.
KK is building a library in Karak and the Heroic Epic!!! in Beshbalik, the infertile trilobite. Oh and did I mention the Buddhist Temple in Sparta. :vomit: Methinks it's time to give KK a reality adjustment.

Okay, I have a choko that has 80% against the CI lb. Then the Mace for the sword and another choko for the damaged lb. That leaves me with 2.5 chokos to upgrade. That's what I think I'll do.
Mansa has doubled his empire and we can no longer DoW Monty.
Mansa and Cyrus will both trade Banking now.

T137 540ad
Chemistry done! Steel (9t)
My choko, mace and choko eliminate Fred's SoD. I'm able to upgrade only two grens, but not too worry. Fred is busy writing his Last Will and Testament.
We have 2 wkshps built now and can run 32hpt, but I won't take KK's rice yet, because it will immediately kill off population in Tiwanaku. Its lh will be done next turn, then I can have it.
I want Mansa's cash but he's Sal's WE, so I trade Educ to Cyrus for Banking.
I decide to not jump the gun and wait to DoW Alex till KK can upgrade all his attackers.

IBT:
Asoka's stack moves to forest adjacent to Hamburg, sword pillages dyes.
KK upgrades a ton of grens, galleons and frigates, but still has plenty of gold.
KK will pillage bananas and silk next turn :(.
Asoka is the only with Economics. No one has Chemistry yet.
Liz has a 3-stack headed by a cat that only bombards Cuzco (5%), but a xbow has arrived, maybe to get that threshold down to size. Cuzco still has only a lb and a spear.

T138 560ad
WW = -1. Set cultural slider to 10%.
Time to DoW Alex and get the ball rolling.
I gift a cat in Madrid, much to the amazement of the entire peanut gallery.
I encourage W, Liz, and JC to attack Athens. KK to attack Hamburg. He'll do his best.
Our first CRII mace moves to the borders of MurkyLand and upgrades to a Gren.
Set build to gren next @32hpt, because I want to save KK's cash for units down south.
UPgrade a couple more grens down south and have a stack of cats adjacent to Hamburg now. Cats are in position to pillage roads to speed KK on his way.
Saladin has enough on his hands! Fun!

IBT:
Liz captures Cuzco. Drek. NOt exactly what the doctor ordered. But it looks like JC may put up a fight. His stack is two turns from causing a disagreement.
Asoka's cat stack only bombards, as expected.
KK moves three grens to Madrid NW. Looks like Asoka may be the one to capture Hamburg. I may have to DoW him next turn.
Tiwanaku has sent 3 frigates and 3 galleons to land next turn, 5 grens and 4 cats. Another frigate and galleon pair is coming from Karak. Sheesh. I guess we've got two fronts going on.

T139 580ad
Pillage cottage and roads under Madrid NW
Build gren at 32hpt
Reminds AIs who to attack Athens (LIz, W) and Hamburg (KK).

IBT:
Liz, W DoP JC, his units teleport to Cuzco SE.
Asoka is about to pillage our road to W. No good. He also has a ton of units next to Hamburg.
KK the PhuKKed built a cottage on our rice and a mine on his deer.

T140 600ad
Okay, I'm stopping to to discuss our next move. It would be better to capture Hamburg first, but that's okay. Save attached.

>>>>continuing<<<<< Discussion included posts #3070-3100
Hamburg defenses to 0%.
Decide not to attack with cat or choko, because I don't want the lb to get his 3rd promotion. I think Asoka will atack with 3-4 units, which should mean KK can finish the job.

IBT:
Asoka loses 3 units, KK 2 grens, but do not succeed in taking out either lb.
Athens loses an lb or two, still has 3.

T141 620ad
I'm fed up with Hamburg. Time to take out one of the lbs. Now there's just one that will probably promote. Maybe Asoka will get it, otherwise KK.

IBT:
Asoka captures Hamburg and his borders spread from here to fking Timbuktu which simply confirms my hatred for fking WOrld War bs.

T142 640ad
Move our stack 1 tile into Hamburg so they'll teleport NW where they can attack Asoka's stack and also Hamburg, but they fking teleport into the newly roadless jungle, when I DoW Asoka. They I suicide a choko into his stack. THen I lose a gren at 80% odds. They I upload this save and turn the piece of shick over to FiveAces.

I hate fking WORLD WAR. IT'S STUPID. KK and US AGAINST ONE ENEMY. ANYTHING ELSE IS BULL SH!T.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 04:24 AM
KK will get a Great Artist in Berlin in two turns, and most likely culture bomb it directly. :)

I am concerned about the timing. Won't KK send his units towards Hamburg before he can upgrade them to Grenadiers?

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 04:56 AM
I am concerned about the timing. Won't KK send his units towards Hamburg before he can upgrade them to Grenadiers?
There might be an attacker or 3 moving in to pillage. That might still be fine to get Hamburg faster. They shouldn't suicide before they have pillaged some tiles. He shouldn't target Hamburg with attack city before we declare a new war.
I cannot look into the save currently, so don't know where KK has what.
BTW, I found another quirk of the AI. They will not upgrade counter pikes to gren. They "think" that pikes are the same value for counter because of the 100% against mounted. :crazyeye:

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 05:02 AM
He shouldn't target Hamburg with attack city before we declare a new war.

Ok, lets avoid that for a turn then.

I cannot look into the save currently, so don't know where KK has what.
BTW, I found another quirk of the AI. They will not upgrade counter pikes to gren. They "think" that pikes are the same value for counter because of the 100% against mounted. :crazyeye:

He has some units here and there, mostly in Berlin and Karakorum.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 05:30 AM
There might be an attacker or 3 moving in to pillage. That might still be fine to get Hamburg faster. They shouldn't suicide before they have pillaged some tiles. He shouldn't target Hamburg with attack city before we declare a new war.
I cannot look into the save currently, so don't know where KK has what.
EDIT: Our favorite formation mace is 7.8/8 healing on cows Madrid S-SW

Madrid
2 lbs
CI/cover/shock pike
CII pike

Berlin SE-E (iron) CI/cover mace
Berlin
2 lbs
CI/CRIII mace
xbow
CI/cover/shock pike
CI pike
CRI cat

Antium
2 lbs
guerII xbow
CII/medic pike
barrI cat
Antium 2W-SW
CGI lb
CII/medic pike

Tiwanaku
2 full galleons
CI/CRI mace
4 cats
pike
lb

Karak
1 full galleon
1/3 full galleon
mace
2 xbow
cat
2 lbs

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 05:42 AM
I take it Fred's sword stack moved back to have a 'third' defender there. Does that mean there's no way Fred will break up that stack to attack units that are adjacent? What if he builds a new lb? Can that take the place of the sword as a defender, thus freeing teh sword stack to attack adjacent?

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 05:44 AM
Don't redeclare on Monty. Rather Alex next turn. I don't want all these ship loads to vanish into the ocean, but find a nearby location to unload.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 05:47 AM
Don't redeclare on Monty. Rather Alex next turn. I don't want all these ship loads to vanish into the ocean, but find a nearby location to unload.Okay. Should I wait to re-declare till after he upgrades 1 turn?

Btw, KK has only 1141g.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 06:00 AM
Don't redeclare on Monty. Rather Alex next turn. I don't want all these ship loads to vanish into the ocean, but find a nearby location to unload.

Can we get a cat-stack to Athens in time?

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 06:05 AM
Can we get a cat-stack to Athens in time?That would take 8 turns. Athens has four lbs and a phalanx. Heavily promoted.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 06:16 AM
That would take 8 turns. Athens has four lbs and a phalanx. Heavily promoted.

Maybe KK is competent enough to take Athens on his own? His three galleons in Tiwanaku will carry 5 Grenadiers and 4 cats, all with pretty good promotions too.


Edit: Yes, this is a good opportunity. Here is my suggestion:

This turn:
Move chokos to Madrid for upgrading.
Next turn:
Chemistry in, upgrade chokos. If KK's units are upgraded then dow Alex, ask KK to target Athens.
Turn after:
Start luring pillagers towards Hamburg

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 06:21 AM
I take it Fred's sword stack moved back to have a 'third' defender there. Does that mean there's no way Fred will break up that stack to attack units that are adjacent? What if he builds a new lb? Can that take the place of the sword as a defender, thus freeing teh sword stack to attack adjacent?
First one error correction :blush:: Also the capital needs only 2 (3 in danger) defenders when the civ has less than 3 cities total.
I don't see anything that changes grouping besides:

Group head wants to join another group.
Stack loads on ships
Group head is dead
Stack gets split by attacking (and killing) another stack.But it's also not sure that this is only one stack.
A new unit might or might not change the picture. :crazyeye:

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 06:31 AM
LC, if you can get us both Hamburg and Athens in your turnset I promise to never question anything you ever post again today. If you get us Kyoto as well I will worship you for the rest of this succession game... :bowdown:

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 06:33 AM
Okay. My break is over. The way I see it, Asoka has 6 units (2 or 3 stacks) moving toward Hambrug. The cat CITY_ATTACK stack will bombard until we're ready to have it attack, while the other stack catches up. Since Asoka plays before KK, we'll simply use it as part of our red-line attack force.

So I'll move our units back to Madrid (lost a turn of healing :() to upgrade, then continue forward. I won't DoW Alex yet.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 06:39 AM
I won't DoW Alex yet.

Will you do it after KK upgrades, as per my suggestion above?

Good luck again! :goodjob:

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 06:43 AM
Will you do it after KK upgrades, as per my suggestion above?I think so. but ew'll see what happens this interturn, hang on just a second...<click>

FiveAces
Jun 25, 2008, 07:36 AM
I'm assuming if Hamburg falls to Asoka it becomes our next target?

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 07:50 AM
I'm assuming if Hamburg falls to Asoka it becomes our next target?Yes indeed, but I'll try to subject that matter to some influence. :lol:

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 09:21 AM
Okay, guys, it's T140, Hamburg is ready to fall and we need to decide how to go about it. We could bribe Asoka to DoP Fred for either PP ro Chemistry or we could DoW Asoka now and attack his units, making it difficult for him to capture and hold Hamburg. Then red-line Hamburg.

If Asoka DoP's then we keep our Hamburg NW NW road, otherwise we probably lose it. That would be quite a bummer.

If we DoW Asoka, of course, we get to bash his melee units a bunch and don't give him the extra tech.

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 09:28 AM
Okay, guys, it's T140, Hamburg is ready to fall and we need to decide how to go about it. We could bribe Asoka to DoP Fred for either PP ro Chemistry or we could DoW Asoka now and attack his units, making it difficult for him to capture and hold Hamburg. Then red-line Hamburg.

If Asoka DoP's then we keep our Hamburg NW NW road, otherwise we probably lose it. That would be quite a bummer.

If we DoW Asoka, of course, we get to bash his melee units a bunch and don't give him the extra tech.
How about DoW Asoka after he has taken Hamburg. That should make it easy :crazyeye: for KK to take it.

FiveAces
Jun 25, 2008, 09:36 AM
That's a tough call. I can't open the save. Would it be possible to CF Fred, bribe him to DoP Asoka and then redeclare? That would preserve the road, keep hamburg for kk and deny asoka a tech.

EDIT: Or klarius's suggestion. I'd prefer either one of those to bribing asoka to DoP.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 09:42 AM
How about DoW Asoka after he has taken Hamburg. That should make it easy :crazyeye: for KK to take it.

Sounds ok with me. Bombard to 0%, watch Asoka take it, and then DOW Asoka next turn.

Though bribing Asoka to CF is also ok.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 09:45 AM
How about DoW Asoka after he has taken Hamburg. That should make it easy :crazyeye: for KK to take it.That delays KK's capture 1 turn.

If we only bombard it, then Asoka will probably lose about two units and be able to stick about five defenders in there, including a Musket, if the musket doesn't pillage. If we red-line it, it's even worse, of course. If we beat up Asoka and red-line Hamburg, then Asoka can capture it, but not defend it too much.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 09:47 AM
That's a tough call. I can't open the save. Would it be possible to CF Fred, bribe him to DoP Asoka and then redeclare? That would preserve the road, keep hamburg for kk and deny asoka a tech.Not possible. Can't bribe Fred under CF. Can't re-DoW after DoP.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 09:49 AM
Anyway, guys, there's no hurry. Go home and take a look at the save, then let me know what you think. I'm not playing again till tonight at the earliest.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 09:53 AM
That delays KK's capture 1 turn.

If we only bombard it, then Asoka will probably lose about two units and be able to stick about five defenders in there, including a Musket, if the musket doesn't pillage. If we red-line it, it's even worse, of course. If we beat up Asoka and red-line Hamburg, then Asoka can capture it, but not defend it too much.

Attack an adjacent city is higher prio than attacking a unit, right?
And Asoka moves before kk. Yeah, a dow on Asoka now is probably best. Just watch for a landing at Madrid.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 10:07 AM
Come to think of it, if Asoka captures Hamburg this turn and we wait till next turn to DoW Asoka, then KK might move his grens away from Hamburg (only one might stop to heal). That's not an option for me.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 10:21 AM
Btw, kk used his artist in Antium. Does that have any effect on your culturemaps, LC? (We also have our artist to use somewhere)

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 10:22 AM
Btw, kk used his artist in Antium. Does that have any effect on your culturemaps, LC? (We also have our artist to use somewhere)Thanks, I'll take a look. ;)

It gives us at least one option: Settle the GA in New York, get 100:culture:, then we dominate when we capture Rome (without coming out of resistance).

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 10:36 AM
Come to think of it, if Asoka captures Hamburg this turn and we wait till next turn to DoW Asoka, then KK might move his grens away from Hamburg (only one might stop to heal). That's not an option for me.
If a unit heals, it's the whole group that stays. But one has to guess what is the whole group and evaluate whether they rather retreat to the next city to heal.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 10:45 AM
If a unit heals, it's the whole group that stays. But one has to guess what is the whole group and evaluate whether they rather retreat to the next city to heal.If it's based on the leader, then it's not going to stop and heal, because that unit has been traveling damaged the entire time (he's our formation mace/grenadier :)).

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 10:50 AM
Btw, kk used his artist in Antium. Does that have any effect on your culturemaps, LC? (We also have our artist to use somewhere)
Well, it means that Rome will get us only very few domination tiles. We could consider to just raze it, instead of waiting for KK once we get around.

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 11:05 AM
If it's based on the leader, then it's not going to stop and heal, because that unit has been traveling damaged the entire time (he's our formation mace/grenadier :)).
Well that unit had always something better than healing to do, probably. But once Hamburg falls there shouldn't be anything in range for pillage or attack. Target city is not something better to do than healing in neutral territory.

Gnejs
Jun 25, 2008, 11:46 AM
Well, now I have had a closer look at the save, and this is what I would have done:

1. DOW Asoka
2. Kill Asoka's Mace and Sword 1N Hamburg using 2 chokos.
3. Bombard Hamburg to 0%
4. Move more chokos to 1N Hamburg and move Grenadier to 1E Hamburg, both to protect units if Asoka decides to attack us rather than Hamburg
5. Maybe suicide a cat on Hamburg
6. Escape with cat that is currently on the same tile as Asokas Musket.

This leaves Asoka with his city attack stack that will redline Hamburg for us, maybe even capture it, but who cares? Kublai has two healthy and one injured Grenadier next to Hamburg and should be able to capture anyway.

EDIT: Don't forget to ask Asoka for some of his gold before declaring.

FiveAces
Jun 25, 2008, 12:11 PM
Gnejs plan is solid.

The only alternative I can see would be to raze hamburg and go for Liz next after athens falls.

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 12:46 PM
I don't understand why you want to DoW Asoka now already. I don't think that he has good chances to take Hamburg.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:07 PM
klarius, have I calculated this correctly?

I want to guarantee that Asoka's cat will attack Fred at the 30 threshold, so I ignore the random 8%.

cat = CRI+II
lb = CGI+II, 25% fortified on hill, 0% cultural defenses

1. 5/(5 + CGII) = .3 ==> CGII < 11.66 (let's say 11.5)
2. lb has 145% bonus minus 45% from cat = 100%
3. CGII = 11.5/2 = 5.75
4. Fred goes before Asoka, so lb will heal 1 turn = 20hp = 6/5 = 1.2
5. 5.75- 1.2 = 4.55

So, assuming the lb doesn't get to promote after the attack, he has to have ~4.5 damage or less.

To play it really safe, it has to be 4.55/2 = 2.25 max, right?

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:15 PM
For the CGI, it would be:

1. 11.5
2. 75%
3. 11.5/1.75 = 6.5 base strength, which can't happen, so the cat will attack it as long as it doesnt' get a new promotion.

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 01:38 PM
klarius, have I calculated this correctly?


I have no idea what you're calculating here.

Edit:
OK, let's see we have first to establish the threshold (at least I would).
30% input threshold and 6 potential adjacent attackers means 20% final odds threshold, which means a strength 5 unit would attack a strength 20 unit.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:43 PM
I have no idea what you're calculating here.lol sorry. I'm trying to calculate how weak the CGII lb at Hamburg has to be for the cat to be willing to attack with threshold = 30.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:50 PM
And I also want to figure out whether Asoka's sword or mace are likely to attack. The sword and mace are not stacked together (or weren't up to now) and both have been pillaging. The cat stack seems to be all stacked together and have not pillaged whatsoever.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 01:58 PM
Edit:
OK, let's see we have first to establish the threshold (at least I would).
30% input threshold and 6 potential adjacent attackers means 20% final odds threshold, which means a strength 5 unit would attack a strength 20 unit.Okay. So as I see it, all six of Asoka's unit ought to attack this turn, especially if we knock down the city defenses. Furthermore, they're likely to have trouble defeating that first lb, so Asoka may lose most or all of his units trying. Is that how you see it, klarius, and is that why you don't see any point in DoWing Asoka? Because after Asoka suicides himself, KK will be able to cleam up either way?

If my understanding is correct, then I get it and agree with you.

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 02:29 PM
Okay. So as I see it, all six of Asoka's unit ought to attack this turn, especially if we knock down the city defenses. Furthermore, they're likely to have trouble defeating that first lb, so Asoka may lose most or all of his units trying. Is that how you see it, klarius, and is that why you don't see any point in DoWing Asoka? Because after Asoka suicides himself, KK will be able to cleam up either way?

If my understanding is correct, then I get it and agree with you.
It's still different :crazyeye:. The sword and mace are probably attack or pillage units. That means they only have a city attack with threshold 55 before pillage the tile they are at.
We also don't know, if the stack of 4 is one or 2 groups.
The number of adjacent potential attackers might go down for the next group.
So we don't really know, but I doubt all will attack. Still Asoka should do some nice damage, whiles his chances to take the city aren't that big.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 02:35 PM
Still Asoka should do some nice damage, whiles his chances to take the city aren't that big.Okay, then probalby we should do a litle damage ourselves first. I'd like to make sure the city goes down this turn, one way or another. What do you think, attack with a couple of chokos or a cat and a choko, or more?

klarius
Jun 25, 2008, 04:09 PM
Okay, then probalby we should do a litle damage ourselves first. I'd like to make sure the city goes down this turn, one way or another. What do you think, attack with a couple of chokos or a cat and a choko, or more?
Maybe a cat and choko, if you really want to make it sure. Or only a cat if it does already a decent damage on the top defender.

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 05:18 PM
Maybe a cat and choko, if you really want to make it sure. Or only a cat if it does already a decent damage on the top defender.Hmm...on the other hand, if I attack, then he might get his third promotion...:eek:

LowtherCastle
Jun 25, 2008, 05:25 PM
All right. Guess I'll continue and see if KK can't take Hamburg.

FiveAces
Jun 26, 2008, 12:23 AM
Am I up or does our captain want to play his swapped turnset?

Gnejs
Jun 26, 2008, 02:01 AM
Sounds like something didn't go as planned. :( Will have a look at the save soon.

Gnejs
Jun 26, 2008, 02:15 AM
Am I up or does our captain want to play his swapped turnset?

You are up. Erkon is busy doing whatever he does on his vacation. ;)

Gnejs
Jun 26, 2008, 02:51 AM
Ok, some thoughts from the save:

LC, you played very well. :goodjob: We all missed the fact that Asoka's borders would expand instantly.

We need to immediately bribe Elizabeth to make peace with Alex, or she takes Athens from under our nose. We can either do it with Printing Press, or buy Nationalism from Hattie for PP+Liberalism and use Nationalism to bribe Lizzie. I think I would prefer Hattie to have PP rather than Lizzie.
Anyway, if we do this then KK captures Athens IBT. :)

Get rid of Asokas stack on the mine next to Hamburg. Use a Choko first, then Grenadier+choko or whatever it takes. Then KK may capture Hamburg IBT too. :) At worst he captures it one turn late so no big deal.

Keep two Grenadiers at Madrid because Asoka will unload two or three Galleons there. The good part is that this will almost empty Kyoto.

Send our northern Grenadiers and cats to Bombay and Delhi and start bombarding and pillaging.

All in all, it looks like we are ready to wrap this game up now. Steel in 5 turns. Kill 'em all!

klarius
Jun 26, 2008, 06:10 AM
We need to immediately bribe Elizabeth to make peace with Alex, or she takes Athens from under our nose. We can either do it with Printing Press, or buy Nationalism from Hattie for PP+Liberalism and use Nationalism to bribe Lizzie.

We need to act now not next turn, so cannot use nationalism.

We could bribe Cathy on Asoka for astronomy (or for lesser techs, just hoping he will send his troops to her - unlikely).

Edit:
Get our frigate out of Madrid to watch Asoka's fleet coming. There should be the chance to send a loaded galleon to Davy's locker as long as he doesn't have frigates to escort.

Gnejs
Jun 26, 2008, 07:28 AM
We need to act now not next turn, so cannot use nationalism.

We could bribe Cathy on Asoka for astronomy (or for lesser techs, just hoping he will send his troops to her - unlikely).

Edit:
Get our frigate out of Madrid to watch Asoka's fleet coming. There should be the chance to send a loaded galleon to Davy's locker as long as he doesn't have frigates to escort.

Doh. Ok PP to Lizzie is required then.
I wouldn't bring in Cathy. We want Asoka to land at Madrid. Two Grenadiers can handle the defense and Asoka empties Kyoto. After that he has very few loose troops left.

Gnejs
Jun 26, 2008, 09:42 AM
It turned out that declaring on Alex was a real power move. The reason why Kublai sent so few units to Antium and Madrid was that they were all aboard ships already. :crazyeye:

For the coming turnsets we should keep an eye on Kublai's Galleons and be prepared to DoW Elizabeth when he has assembled a new expeditionary force. This time we should also have a Galleon or two of our own to deposit some cannons for getting rid of the culture defenses in time for KK's arrival. We might need a Frigate or two as well if we still care about the food resources.

FiveAces
Jun 26, 2008, 11:30 AM
Got it! Will work on PPP tomorrow.

jesusin
Jun 26, 2008, 01:04 PM
Well done, LC!!
KK will take Athens in 1t and Hamburg in 2t.

We might have a slowdown then. Will KK keep his E units at Hamburg and his W units at a galleon?
What to do?
Wait and see, while breaking Asoka's neck? Gifting units?

klarius
Jun 26, 2008, 11:45 PM
Another idea:
DoW Liz. :eek:
KK can take Athens from her, for only 3 turns resistance.
We can prepare to redline Cuzco and Hamburg next turn and KK has quite some troops in the region.

Only problem I see is that we have to defend our land and might run into some fights in the open (and lose maybe a unit or 2). And our WW will sky rocket. But the chance to get 3 cities within 2-3 turns is tempting.

jesusin
Jun 27, 2008, 07:34 AM
Well, klarius, since our football viking fanatics haven't said a word, I'll speak:

It's between Germany and Spain now. Good luck!

Gnejs
Jun 27, 2008, 09:16 AM
Another idea:
DoW Liz. :eek:
KK can take Athens from her, for only 3 turns resistance.
We can prepare to redline Cuzco and Hamburg next turn and KK has quite some troops in the region.

Only problem I see is that we have to defend our land and might run into some fights in the open (and lose maybe a unit or 2). And our WW will sky rocket. But the chance to get 3 cities within 2-3 turns is tempting.

I also thought about this. But I saw two problems:


Do we really have enough units to take care of Cuzco, Hamburg, Kyoto, and Bombay at the same time?

And more importantly, we have no naval defenses at Murky and will surely get our nets pillaged. There is also a big risk that Lizzie makes an amphibious landing at Murkyopolis. This could get ugly...

Gnejs
Jun 27, 2008, 12:58 PM
FiveAces, you might want to close borders with JC in 2 turns. That way you can probably prevent most of his loose units from returning home to Rome. Even better would be to get him into a new war, but I doubt it is possible given his feelings for us now... :)

Gnejs
Jun 27, 2008, 01:00 PM
Well, klarius, since our football viking fanatics haven't said a word, I'll speak:

It's between Germany and Spain now. Good luck!

Yeah, may the best team win! :trophy:

klarius
Jun 27, 2008, 01:23 PM
I also thought about this. But I saw two problems:

Do we really have enough units to take care of Cuzco, Hamburg, Kyoto, and Bombay at the same time?
And more importantly, we have no naval defenses at Murky and will surely get our nets pillaged. There is also a big risk that Lizzie makes an amphibious landing at Murkyopolis. This could get ugly...
Well, the way it was currently we had too few action. Our units did fight very rarely.
Currently (yeah, that may chance during the war), we have the by far best units. It doesn't look like Liz or Asoka will have many free units left, so I think we can handle it.
The risk that our nets get pillaged is there (it's by no means certain). And for sure we should keep a few units at home in case of a landing, though, if I read the code right, Liz will rather target Athens (if she has a filled assault group at all).

FiveAces
Jun 28, 2008, 02:17 AM
Ok this is my 10,000-foot PPP:

Call Liz off Alex so KK can take Athens.
Continue the war against Asoka with Hamburg as the 1st target city. From there either Kyoto or Bombay. Pillage high commerce tiles and bombard cities.
Use the frigate at Madrid to try to intercept Asoka's fleet at Kyoto.
Send a couple more units from Murky to Asoka-land.
Build Globe. Build a couple more units, then build a frigate for Liz defense and to bombard London.
Prepare to assist kk in a war against Liz. I'm thinking this will be near the end of my turnset or possibly beginning of jesusin's as opposed to right now. I'd like kk to have a couple city defense in Athens before moving on so that he can use that nice stack of his effectively.

I'll work on the details later tonight, but if you guys want to make suggestions/comments/concerns on the above that would be great..

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 03:29 AM
Ok this is my 10,000-foot PPP:

Call Liz off Alex so KK can take Athens.
Continue the war against Asoka with Hamburg as the 1st target city. From there either Kyoto or Bombay. Pillage high commerce tiles and bombard cities.
Use the frigate at Madrid to try to intercept Asoka's fleet at Kyoto.
Send a couple more units from Murky to Asoka-land.
Build Globe. Build a couple more units, then build a frigate for Liz defense and to bombard London.
Prepare to assist kk in a war against Liz. I'm thinking this will be near the end of my turnset or possibly beginning of jesusin's as opposed to right now. I'd like kk to have a couple city defense in Athens before moving on so that he can use that nice stack of his effectively.

I'll work on the details later tonight, but if you guys want to make suggestions/comments/concerns on the above that would be great..Looks good to me. Some comments:

1. The workers have built a workshop for 1t each on the cottage where they stand. I think we need more workshops, but you might consider sending one of the workers down eventually (see Note 5) to build a road on Athens corn or wherever else we need them.

2. Depending on what you lose at Hamburg, I would consider going for both Kyoto and Bombay at the same time, but if not prioiritze Bombay, which is producing muskets every 2-3 turns (HE + forge) and also gives you a view inside all other Hindu cities once you capture it.

3. I would pillage important Bombay hammer tiles asap, especially the copper and not worry at all about commerce tiles.

4. I see no way you can intercept Asoka's galleons if he wants to land his units at Madrid 2N or Madrid E. I considered all variations and deliberately placed the frigate where it is because: 1) it prevents a sea attack on Madrid and 2) it keeps open the path to Madrid for our frigate after killing off one of the galleons, when our frigate will need to heal and will be vulnarable to counter-attack by the second galleon.

5. For Globe you'll need to build up the overflow again, maybe building 2 maces at -1fpt, 31hpt and then a cat at 36 or 40hpt (using the next workshp instead of furs for one turn). That'll get it done nicely.

6. Final comment: I still think we want to do Washington right after capturing Bombay, even if we give Liz PP now, but that's a decision for later anyway, probably.

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 04:35 AM
Ok this is my 10,000-foot PPP:

Call Liz off Alex so KK can take Athens.
Continue the war against Asoka with Hamburg as the 1st target city. From there either Kyoto or Bombay. Pillage high commerce tiles and bombard cities.
Use the frigate at Madrid to try to intercept Asoka's fleet at Kyoto.
Send a couple more units from Murky to Asoka-land.
Build Globe. Build a couple more units, then build a frigate for Liz defense and to bombard London.
Prepare to assist kk in a war against Liz. I'm thinking this will be near the end of my turnset or possibly beginning of jesusin's as opposed to right now. I'd like kk to have a couple city defense in Athens before moving on so that he can use that nice stack of his effectively.

I'll work on the details later tonight, but if you guys want to make suggestions/comments/concerns on the above that would be great..

Skip the Globe and use the culture slider for happiness. After Steel there is nothing else we need to research anyway.
Speaking of which, what will you research after Steel? I suggest Biology to help boost KK's population for the domination win.
Other than that everything looks good. But please provide some details on how you will use our units at Hamburg.

FiveAces
Jun 28, 2008, 05:01 AM
Yup I'll provide unit details in the full PPP.

Is everyone sure we will win fast enough that we don't need rifling artillery? it so then I agree to go to bio.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 05:49 AM
Is everyone sure we will win fast enough that we don't need rifling artillery? it so then I agree to go to bio.Reaching the domination limit by growing your own population is only 38% effective. Besides, KK doesn't have many farms and is liable to build over them. I don't think we'll need to worry about the population factor (if we don't autoraze Rome), but if we do, it's better just to take out a Cyrus city. That's about 62% effective with autoraze.

The only other tech that might speed up our victory is RR. We either risk it and go to 0% science or beeline RR. 0% science upgrades a mace every few turns.

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 06:50 AM
Reaching the domination limit by growing your own population is only 38% effective. Besides, KK doesn't have many farms and is liable to build over them. I don't think we'll need to worry about the population factor (if we don't autoraze Rome), but if we do, it's better just to take out a Cyrus city. That's about 62% effective with autoraze.

The only other tech that might speed up our victory is RR. We either risk it and go to 0% science or beeline RR. 0% science upgrades a mace every few turns.

There are enough farms on our continent to motivate bio. If we are close to the dom limit it will help quickly. Going after Cyrus could result in a delay. What is the earliest we could reach RR?

FiveAces
Jun 28, 2008, 07:46 AM
We need coal to actualy build the rails. There were no horses on our continent. Just something to keep in mind. (though I'm pretty sure it's somewhere, just a question of where)

klarius
Jun 28, 2008, 08:48 AM
I think railroad doesn't make sense. In the time we research it and build rails, we can have all troops necessary delivered. It would be interesting if KK had rails, but that's even longer then.

FiveAces
Jun 28, 2008, 08:56 AM
I think railroad doesn't make sense. In the time we research it and build rails, we can have all troops necessary delivered. It would be interesting if KK had rails, but that's even longer then.

Yes I am thinking this too. Plus if we don't need to tech after steel, we can skip globe and use the slider.

FiveAces
Jun 28, 2008, 10:19 AM
FiveAces PPP - t142-152

Overview

KK capture Athens, Hamburg, and one of Bombay/Kyoto. Stretch goal is to take the other one. Raze Nottingham. Set up jesusin for opening of second front Research Steel (5 turns), shut off research.

Initial moves:

Trade PP to Liz for DoP Alex + gold. Do not forget this. Do not forget this.

Build Queue

Units: frigate-mace(CR2)-frigate-gren-cannon-mace(CR2)-cannon-gren-cannon

Note: We're not asking KK for any gold until all his cats are upgraded. Then we take whatever we need to upgrade our stuff.

Unit Moves

Hamburg: Gren attacks hill then choku (I'm not losing a unit at 70% when I have a 99% one). final attack by cat(s). Stack splits: 1 choku, 4 accuracy cats to Bombay, attack/pillage copper on the way. wash grens to guard cats, take out copper and other nice hammer tiles Remaining units to hamburg NW hill, redline next turn if needed (best choku first, then CR cats, give CRII if necessary to get 70%+ odds).

If avail a hamburg choku will promote to medic. After Hamburg falls, stack moves to kyoto, joins gren from Madrid (medic gren if no choku medic).

Kyoto: Bombard nearest to 0% before kk arrives, then redline. Same for Bombay

Madrid: 2 gren stay until kyoto threat passes. Frigate stays and intercepts galleon, retreats into Madrid to heal (yup, good placement LC :) ). 1 gren stays E of Madrid landing, other defends from Madrid.

NY: 1 Gren move to bombay, pillage gold and ph windmill. Other defends silver

Loose cats in wash territory: 1 move to Bombay. Other moves to nottingham to attack after cannon upgrade and become accuracy cannon

Murky units: 1st frigate scouts london, then "hides" SW SW, after DOW stations 1 SW and bombards. 1st CR2 mace upgrade to gren goes to iron and will attack with cat->cannon, 2nd frigate camps London 1N and bombards

Worker Actions

Workshops on the cottage tiles til 1 turn is left. Maybe a road if I see a good place and it's safe

City MM

Make sure have enough hpt for the unit. Otherwise prioritize food. Use slider if happy becomes a problem.

Diplo Actions

PP to Liz for gold + DoP Alex.
Close borders w JC.
DOW Liz in 4 turns
borrow kk's rice

Stop Criteria
Asoka is dead (not likely but I can hope)
Liz has a massive army/fleet in London
I want to DOW Wash
KK loses a city
We get DOW'd (though that's pretty unlikely with our power now)
We have a major happy problem and I want to build Globe
Replaceable Parts is available for trade

Others
Research: Steel(5t)-off, put KK on Replaceable parts (for lumbermills), then rifling

Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled: Maybe KK will find an empty island

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 11:10 AM
There are enough farms on our continent to motivate bio. If we are close to the dom limit it will help quickly. Going after Cyrus could result in a delay. What is the earliest we could reach RR?I'm not advocating RR. We should win before that. I'm just anti-BIology.* Btw, I had my percentages wrong. Since we need only 38% and the rest need 62% its their population that is less effective. Nonetheless, our landmass has only three cities with significant amounts farms: Antium, Rome, and York. And we can't count on KK to keep those farms.

Right now the total world population is 443. >38% = pop169. If KK captures all cities, except Nottingham and loses 1 pop with each capture, we have pop181.

You don't even need to capture any Cyrus cities, just send a couple frigates to pillage his and Louis' seafood and they're pop will drop as fast as we want it to.

That's all I'm saying on the topic.

*Not super anti-biology. It's good idea, I just don't think it's going to come into play in this game. Just like RR probably won't. But if anything goes wrong, I think it's most likely to be slower conquest and then RR could come into play. When I got the 13xx victory with klarius' save, RRs were critical. And they sprang up all over the place almost as soon as it was reserached.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 11:32 AM
Workshops on the cottage tiles til 1 turn is left. Maybe a road if I see a good place, or maybe I'll farm kk's rice for him :crazyeye: we can do that now you know. Actually I should prob do this straight off with one of the workers. Thoughts?I just noticed that KK has just finished re-farming his rice and re-camping his deer! :crazyeye:

This also means you can you could borrow KK's rice agian, if you want. The unhappiness in Sparta should vanish once KK captures Athens.

Also, if KK happens to put nets on another whale, you could get our deer back from Liz. Or maybe do it anyway.

FiveAces
Jun 28, 2008, 11:52 AM
yeah that's a good idea. the thought about farming the rice occurred to me after the save was closed so i just assumed he hadn't done it yet. good for him!

we'll get the rice now and deer back after steel (don't want to have to go to 20% if we lose one of the happy trades for some reason.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 12:08 PM
I think railroad doesn't make sense. In the time we research it and build rails, we can have all troops necessary delivered. It would be interesting if KK had rails, but that's even longer then.It's not about our troops getting there in time, only about KK's troops getting there faster. Especially in light of what we know about him making decisions based on be 1, 2 or 3 moves from a target.

jesusin
Jun 28, 2008, 12:09 PM
FiveAces PPP - t142-152

Overview

Note: We're not asking KK for any gold until all his cats are upgraded. Then we take whatever we need to upgrade our stuff.


I like the plan.

We can ask for as much gpt as we need. KK will simply lower the slider.

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 12:24 PM
FiveAces PPP - t142-152

Overview

KK capture Athens, Hamburg, and one of Bombay/Kyoto. Stretch goal is to take the other one. Research Steel (5 turns), shut off research.

Initial moves:

Trade PP to Liz for DoP Alex + gold. Do not forget this. Do not forget this.
Close borders with JC (any reason to wait or not do this?)

Build Queue

Units: gren-gren-cat-cat(upgrade before leaving murky culture)-cannon-mace(CRII upgrade)-cannon-mace(CRII upgrade)-cannon

Note: We're not asking KK for any gold until all his cats are upgraded. Then we take whatever we need to upgrade our stuff.

Unit Moves

Hamburg: best odds choku attack Asoka hill. If survives, gren attack asoka hill, if dies, 2nd choku attack. final attack by cat(s). Stack splits: gren, 1 choku, 3 accuracy cats to Bombay, attack/pillage copper on the way. Remaining units to hamburg NW hill, redline next turn (best choku first, then CR cats, give CRII if necessary to get 70%+ odds).

Question: Will kk attack across the river if the odds are good enough? And what do I have to take the last defender down to to get those odds?

If avail a hamburg choku will promote to medic. After Hamburg falls, stack moves to kyoto, joins gren from Madrid (medic gren if no choku medic).

Kyoto: Bombard nearest to 0% before kk arrives, then redline.

Madrid: 2 gren stay until kyoto threat passes. Frigate stays and intercepts galleon, retreats into Madrid to heal (yup, good placement LC :) ). 1 gren stays on hill to prevent landing, other defends from Madrid.

NY: Grens move to bombay, pillage gold and ph windmill (split for these 2 turns only, should be ok on the hills)

Loose cats in wash territory: move to Bombay. Time to arrive and be guarded by either gren stack coming from Hamburg or grens down from NY.

Worker Actions

Workshops on the cottage tiles til 1 turn is left. Maybe a road if I see a good place, or maybe I'll farm kk's rice for him :crazyeye: we can do that now you know. Actually I should prob do this straight off with one of the workers. Thoughts?

City MM

Make sure have enough hpt for the unit. Otherwise prioritize food. Use slider if happy becomes a problem.

Diplo Actions

PP to Liz for gold + DoP Alex.
Close borders w JC.

Stop Criteria
Asoka is dead (not likely but I can hope)
I want to DOW Liz or Wash (which might happen depending on where kk moves his athens stack)
KK loses a city
We get DOW'd (though that's pretty unlikely with our power now)
We have a major happy problem and I want to build Globe

Others
Research: Steel(5t)-off, put KK on Replaceable parts (for lumbermills), then bio
Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled: Maybe KK will find an empty island

Looking good! :goodjob: Some comments:


I don't think it is necessary to prep Hamburg. KK will most likely take it IBT since he has six healthy units that can attack on the western side in addition to the wounded Grenadier SE.

As we have better research modifiers than Kublai it is better if we keep our science slider as high as possible and Kublai provides the money for all our upgrades. I wouldn't turn off research completely, just reduce it so that we have enough happiness. But you should also be prepared to give happy resources to KK and compensate with the slider, especially if he runs into WW/happiness problems. That way KK can also grow his cities larger.

You will not be able to close borders with JC until T144. If he has already retreated his stacks by then there is no point in closing them...

Don't forget to upgrade the chokos at Hamburg to Grenadiers (and the cats to cannons later).

How about building a Frigate first thing? It makes the dow on Lizzie less of a gamble and you can use it meanwhile to have a look at London.

On research: I count about 40 farms in use on our continent. That is worth about 20 extra pop. The AI also seems fond of farming over cottages etc. :crazyeye: An alternative could be to beeline Rifling as this lets KK upgrade his longbows and pikes. Though (remainder of) Steel-Rep Parts-Rifling takes about 25 turns at our current rate. Steel+Biology will be ours in about 22 turns at the same rate. EDIT: Railroad doesn't come until after 50 turns at our current rate. This seems far too late...


When are you planning to play?

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 01:04 PM
How about building a Frigate first thing? It makes the dow on Lizzie less of a gamble and you can use it meanwhile to have a look at London.What dow ?

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 01:10 PM
FiveAces, don't send more units than necessary to Asokaland. As soon as there are enough units to break Asoka and redline his cities it is time to start assembling units for a dow on Lizzie. We definitely want to hit her before she gets Rifling and upgrades all her longbows, maces, crossbows and pikemen to Redcoats. Not that I think we can't handle that but it will definitely take more of an effort.

If we think a bit further, then I guess that two Frigates is enough to deny her the use of all coastal tiles at London. That should slow down her research pretty much. If we also redline York and pillage around it and raze Nottingham we might break her too in no time.

In other words, as soon as we have two frigates, a couple of cats/cannons, and 5-6 Grenadiers to spare we would be ready to dow on her too.

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 01:11 PM
What dow ?

The one that we should soon be doing (see my above post). As we will give up PP to her she only needs Replaceable Parts and Rifling to get her Redcoats.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 01:16 PM
You will not be able to close borders with JC until T144. If he has already retreated his stacks by then there is no point in closing them...

FiveAces: This JC stack that is W of the bananas is moving toward Athens, I'm pretty sure, so you can just encourage JC to go attack Athens till it falls and that help you keep JC from returning.

klarius
Jun 28, 2008, 01:26 PM
We can ask for as much gpt as we need. KK will simply lower the slider.
Well, if his slider falls too low, he's in "financial trouble". That means he might raze cities or disband troops.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 01:30 PM
I don't think it is necessary to prep Hamburg. KK will most likely take it IBT since he has six healthy units that can attack on the western side in addition to the wounded Grenadier SE.Let's hope so. Don't forget that KK has 4 freshly emptied galleons and can recall units from anywhere to fill them.

My basic view is that the fewer units KK has to suicide to capture cities, the more he has available to hurry on to the next target. In other words, the less we rely on KK to burn his stacks (like on Athens) the faster we finish. So there might be a paradox here: a slow deliberate methodical victory might be faster than DoWing all sorts of AIs and allowing KK to get ahead of us.

klarius
Jun 28, 2008, 01:30 PM
Question: Will kk attack across the river if the odds are good enough? And what do I have to take the last defender down to to get those odds?

Sure. The 25% for river crossing don't do a lot in the light of the suicidal vanilla attack odds calcualation.
It's just the target city algorithm, which tries to get the troops into a location to not attack over the river, even using twice the moves.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 01:35 PM
Well, if his slider falls too low, he's in "financial trouble". That means he might raze cities or disband troops.Yikes.....

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 01:55 PM
FiveAces, don't send more units than necessary to Asokaland. As soon as there are enough units to break Asoka and redline his cities it is time to start assembling units for a dow on Lizzie. We definitely want to hit her before she gets Rifling and upgrades all her longbows, maces, crossbows and pikemen to Redcoats. Not that I think we can't handle that but it will definitely take more of an effort.

If we think a bit further, then I guess that two Frigates is enough to deny her the use of all coastal tiles at London. That should slow down her research pretty much. If we also redline York and pillage around it and raze Nottingham we might break her too in no time.

In other words, as soon as we have two frigates, a couple of cats/cannons, and 5-6 Grenadiers to spare we would be ready to dow on her too.Okay, I'll buy this. I can even see how this might be higher priority than W.

Btw, with those two frigates to the west, we really don't need to research Buildology. :lol:

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 02:03 PM
Okay, I'll buy this. I can even see how this might be higher priority than W.

Btw, with those two frigates to the west, we really don't need to research Buildology. :lol:

Those Frigates can bombard London. There should be no need to pillage any nets as we would like to have them in place for fast regrowth after capture.

LC, I don't understand your second comment. Could you please clarify? :confused:

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 02:09 PM
Sure. The 25% for river crossing don't do a lot in the light of the suicidal vanilla attack odds calcualation.
It's just the target city algorithm, which tries to get the troops into a location to not attack over the river, even using twice the moves.

What does that algorithm say about an Indian landing at Madrid? Say that we put troops both 1N and 1E of Madrid so the closest Asoka can land is either 2N or 1SE (which is in JC's culture and would take an extra turn of Galleon movement). Would he then go for 2N, 1SE, an amphibious attack on 1N or 1E, or not set sail at all?

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 02:13 PM
Those Frigates can bombard London. There should be no need to pillage any nets as we would like to have them in place for fast regrowth after capture.

LC, I don't understand your second comment. Could you please clarify? :confused:I agree on the London nets. That's a great idea on using 2 frigates to cut off Liz's food and commerce. The second comment has to do with sending the frigates off later to pillage and cut off seafood at Cyrus and Louis, for example, to lower their population, if so needed.

But whatever. If you want to have KK research Biloolgy, so be it, but I don't see any reason for us to research it. We might need cash reserves to help out KK, who knows?

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 02:23 PM
I agree on the London nets. That's a great idea on using 2 frigates to cut off Liz's food and commerce. The second comment has to do with sending the frigates off later to pillage and cut off seafood at Cyrus and Louis, for example, to lower their population, if so needed.

But whatever. If you want to have KK research Biloolgy, so be it, but I don't see any reason for us to research it. We might need cash reserves to help out KK, who knows?

Ok, I understand.

Here is another idea: We go 100% culture after finishing steel. Then we get a border expansion in about 18 turns from now. We can also plant the GA in one of KK's cities. This should let us raze Nottingham without losing any tiles. But can we even raze some other city? Like Washington perhaps?

klarius
Jun 28, 2008, 02:48 PM
What does that algorithm say about an Indian landing at Madrid? Say that we put troops both 1N and 1E of Madrid so the closest Asoka can land is either 2N or 1SE (which is in JC's culture and would take an extra turn of Galleon movement). Would he then go for 2N, 1SE, an amphibious attack on 1N or 1E, or not set sail at all?
That's not the target city, but the transport assault sea algorithm :p. They always want to land inside enemy culture. Preferred adjacent to a city. Next preference is a tile with high pillage value. If nothing is easily available the may even do an amhibious attack.

Gnejs
Jun 28, 2008, 03:26 PM
Well, if his slider falls too low, he's in "financial trouble". That means he might raze cities or disband troops.

Sounds like something we don't want to happen. Is there a certain threshold (for his slider?) that we can look for and prevent?

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 04:12 PM
That's not the target city, but the transport assault sea algorithm :p. They always want to land inside enemy culture. Preferred adjacent to a city. Next preference is a tile with high pillage value. If nothing is easily available the may even do an amhibious attack.SO if we put a unit or two on Madrid E, the units won't leave the galleons, our frigate can take one out, our units leave Madrid E, the other 3 Asoka units land on Madrid E, and we take them out.

klarius
Jun 28, 2008, 05:36 PM
SO if we put a unit or two on Madrid E, the units won't leave the galleons, our frigate can take one out, our units leave Madrid E, the other 3 Asoka units land on Madrid E, and we take them out.
Well, all this planning for Asoka's sea assault ...
He will not leave until his whole assault sea group is filled. That might never happen.

Edit:
One of his galleons could be a settler sea galleon, so maybe he leaves.

LowtherCastle
Jun 28, 2008, 06:20 PM
Well, all this planning for Asoka's sea assault ...
He will not leave until his whole assault sea group is filled. That might never happen.

Edit:
One of his galleons could be a settler sea galleon, so maybe he leaves.Hmm..it looks like both Kyoto and Delhi have 1/3-full galleons. Well, our frigate could also start working on Kyoto's defenses. Speaking of which, it also looks like Asoka GA-bombed Kyoto, because its defenses were 40% last turn.

klarius
Jun 29, 2008, 12:09 AM
Speaking of which, it also looks like Asoka GA-bombed Kyoto, because its defenses were 40% last turn.
Just select a gren and it's again 40% :).
100% is walls + castle.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 12:18 AM
I like the plan.

We can ask for as much gpt as we need. KK will simply lower the slider.

I'd rather just take lump sums as needed and not mess with whatever calcs the AI brain uses to figure out where to set the sliders.

Looking good! :goodjob: Some comments:


I don't think it is necessary to prep Hamburg. KK will most likely take it IBT since he has six healthy units that can attack on the western side in addition to the wounded Grenadier SE.

As we have better research modifiers than Kublai it is better if we keep our science slider as high as possible and Kublai provides the money for all our upgrades. I wouldn't turn off research completely, just reduce it so that we have enough happiness. But you should also be prepared to give happy resources to KK and compensate with the slider, especially if he runs into WW/happiness problems. That way KK can also grow his cities larger.

You will not be able to close borders with JC until T144. If he has already retreated his stacks by then there is no point in closing them...

Don't forget to upgrade the chokos at Hamburg to Grenadiers (and the cats to cannons later).

How about building a Frigate first thing? It makes the dow on Lizzie less of a gamble and you can use it meanwhile to have a look at London.

On research: I count about 40 farms in use on our continent. That is worth about 20 extra pop. The AI also seems fond of farming over cottages etc. :crazyeye: An alternative could be to beeline Rifling as this lets KK upgrade his longbows and pikes. Though (remainder of) Steel-Rep Parts-Rifling takes about 25 turns at our current rate. Steel+Biology will be ours in about 22 turns at the same rate. EDIT: Railroad doesn't come until after 50 turns at our current rate. This seems far too late...


When are you planning to play?

I'm not prepping hamburg - it's a turn to move onto the adjacent hill since there is no road on the jungle where the units are. If kk takes it IBT, fine, the units will move on to Bombay immediately.

I'm shutting off research initially so we have enough gold to do the upgrades - I'm hoping kk spends most of his gold on cats-cannons, so I think we will need to generate our own to upgrade the initial units. But I will think about upping it again once this is done.

How bout a frigate instead of the first cat?

Prob play a few turns tomorrow and finish on Tuesday night.

FiveAces: This JC stack that is W of the bananas is moving toward Athens, I'm pretty sure, so you can just encourage JC to go attack Athens till it falls and that help you keep JC from returning.

Athens should fall IBT (cross fingers) but I will do this for the first turn anyway.

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 12:36 AM
I think I even prefer frigate-frigate-... and a dow on Liz as soon as we can have a gren at Nottingham and one on the silver. The important part is to shut down her research by blockading London.

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 12:43 AM
We can also probably bribe Washington into slavery for some cheap tech like Theology.

jesusin
Jun 29, 2008, 01:15 AM
2 frigates are too builderish. Gimme 2 cannons instead and I'll reduce Lizzy's research rate far more!

I don't believe in Nottingham culture flipping.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 01:19 AM
I think I even prefer frigate-frigate-... and a dow on Liz as soon as we can have a gren at Nottingham and one on the silver. The important part is to shut down her research by blockading London.

Ok I can support this. I think we have enough units in asoka-land to take care of him. To be safe I will use the gren to attack the hamburg hill first (99% vs. 70%)

build queue will be gren(silver/cannon escort)-frigate-mace(nottingham CRII upgrade)-frigate-cannon(london)-gren(silver)

Frigates will bombard London. The closest cat in wash territory will go to london and I will try to upgrade to cannon if possible. Goal is to get london to 0% and the cat/cannon(s) there to suicide when kk's athens stack reaches it.

DOW on Liz will be when the CRII gren is ready to attack nottingham which will be razed.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 01:35 AM
2 frigates are too builderish. Gimme 2 cannons instead and I'll reduce Lizzy's research rate far more!

I don't believe in Nottingham culture flipping.

I'll look at building only one. I believe a sea unit blocks use of adjacent tiles in addition to the one it's on. I need to see the map though to see if this works and i can't do that now.

EDIT: No, can't build cannons yet, and I think the frigate will serve us better than a cat. Maybe. Still need to see the map.

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 02:09 AM
2 frigates are too builderish. Gimme 2 cannons instead and I'll reduce Lizzy's research rate far more!

I don't believe in Nottingham culture flipping.

Too builderish? My Frigates can halve Lizzie's tech rate in 5t from now. You, Mr Builder, can't even build any cannons by then...
Nottingham will be razed to the ground by brute force, not by culture.

EDIT:

Even better. If we build Frigate-Frigate-Grenadier and bring back one of the Grenadiers from the Washington/Bombay area to the silver we can dow Lizzie in 3t from now and immediately deny London 12 out of 13 water tiles. The new Gren goes to the Iron to keep the Nottingham units in place, while the retiring Gren protects the pass (we will probably need to send one or two more there to be certain).
Placing the first Frigate 1SW London and the second 1N London gives her one measly ocean tile to work. She then has 15 food to feed a pop 15 city = massive starvation. :evil:

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 05:29 AM
EDIT:

Even better. If we build Frigate-Frigate-Grenadier and bring back one of the Grenadiers from the Washington/Bombay area to the silver we can dow Lizzie in 3t from now and immediately deny London 12 out of 13 water tiles. The new Gren goes to the Iron to keep the Nottingham units in place, while the retiring Gren protects the pass (we will probably need to send one or two more there to be certain).
Placing the first Frigate 1SW London and the second 1N London gives her one measly ocean tile to work. She then has 15 food to feed a pop 15 city = massive starvation. :evil:

That's a thought. I'll need to see how many grens we can have in Asoka-land if we move one back. I think I would still prefer to err on the cautious side and DOW liz in about 5 turns instead of 3. It shouldn't delay the capture of her cities as the critical path is kk, and I want to be able to take out nottingham quickly and make sure nothing gets through the pass so i would rather have 2 units there at the DOW.

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 06:16 AM
A frigate at London N also prevents LIz from landing some units before your frigate can sink the galleon.

If you guys are serious about DoWing Liz, then I think Kyoto becomes low priority. HIgher priority are Hamburg and Bombay. But why aren't you considering klarius' suggestion to capture Cuzco? You already have two grens defending at Murky, three near Washington. You have plenty already to protect us from both Asoka and Liz. Capturing Cuzco and Athens quickly put KK's units in position to go down on Madrid, York and London, wherever KK's fancy sends them. BUild 2 frigates and your kill--Liz's economy front is already prepped.

But I would still bribe Liz off of Alecks first, because if Liz captures Athens you'll get funky border expansion again. But You could easily consider DoWing Liz next turn or so, especially if KK captures Hamburg.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 06:41 AM
I had forgotten about Cuzco sitting there. Let me look at the map again tonight and see if I can make everything work without stretching us too thin.

klarius
Jun 29, 2008, 07:35 AM
An interesting tidbit about DoWing Liz this turn:
Our Madrid grens share a tile with an English mace. If we DoW Liz they will teleport NW to a roaded tile and can attack Hamburg immediately, making sure Hamburg will be captured by KK. Just give up the idea of defending Madrid against a naval invasion which will probably never come.
This means all troops NW of Hamburg not needed for the attack on Asoka's hill units are free to move in on Cuzco (put some NE and SE of Cuzco to defend the cat and KK's crossbow).

klarius
Jun 29, 2008, 07:49 AM
But I would still bribe Liz off of Alecks first, because if Liz captures Athens you'll get funky border expansion again. But You could easily consider DoWing Liz next turn or so, especially if KK captures Hamburg.
What kind of funky border expansion do you expect. South of Athens is not in range of any of Liz' cities. Even Athens itself and E of Athens is not.
I also don't see that there was a real problem with the culture expansion around Hamburg. The problem was that you cannot enter tiles with enemy units by teleportation. But by that we are now in a top notch position to prepare Cuzco next turn.

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 08:15 AM
What kind of funky border expansion do you expect. South of Athens is not in range of any of Liz' cities. Even Athens itself and E of Athens is not.
I also don't see that there was a real problem with the culture expansion around Hamburg. The problem was that you cannot enter tiles with enemy units by teleportation. But by that we are now in a top notch position to prepare Cuzco next turn.The corn tile going Lizian. I don't want to get into this too much, because DoWing Lix this turn is even better, but if we had decided to wait a couple turns to DoW Liz, we could have quickly roaded the corn and KK could have attacked Cuzco in two moves.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 08:21 AM
Would DOW Liz this turn possibly distract/delay kk from taking Bombay? I think we rather have Bombay than Cuzco. I am concerned that his units around hamburg move towards Cuzco and then on to York rather than moving the other way. I'm discounting the effectiveness of "why don't you attack" and even if it works we don't want the athens stack moving across the map. I also don't like that we have to choose immediately between grens and frigates to deal with her initial response when we're not sure what it will be.

OTOH DOW Liz this turn keeps PP from her.

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 08:27 AM
An interesting tidbit about DoWing Liz this turn:
Our Madrid grens share a tile with an English mace. If we DoW Liz they will teleport NW to a roaded tile and can attack Hamburg immediately, making sure Hamburg will be captured by KK. Just give up the idea of defending Madrid against a naval invasion which will probably never come.
This means all troops NW of Hamburg not needed for the attack on Asoka's hill units are free to move in on Cuzco (put some NE and SE of Cuzco to defend the cat and KK's crossbow).This is clever! Those grens aren't needed on the hill anyway, since presumably Asoka wouldn't land there till KK's borders won't expand.

The three Madrid grens can red-line Hamburg and choko's can clear out the Hamburg NW tile, leaving several KK units to attack Cuzco. Cuzco will have as many as 4 units Liz can attack with, so maybe we should put one bait on Cuzco E, leave our cat at CUzco NE to die, and not guard KK's xbow at SE and musket at SE-E. Instead we move our stack N, leaving just prtection for our damaged units. Our three W grens are already in position to red-line CUzco next turn if needed. We may also want to put one of those grens on Cuzco N to prevent Liz from bringing back-ups to Cuzco.

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 08:35 AM
Would DOW Liz this turn possibly distract/delay kk from taking Bombay? I think we rather have Bombay than Cuzco. I am concerned that his units around hamburg move towards Cuzco and then on to York rather than moving the other way. I'm discounting the effectiveness of "why don't you attack" and even if it works we don't want the athens stack moving across the map. I also don't like that we have to choose immediately between grens and frigates to deal with her initial response when we're not sure what it will be.

OTOH DOW Liz this turn keeps PP from her.This turn, you can move the gren at New York S over to protect against attacks from Nottingham. The first frigate will be out there in time to counter any naval attacks. If worst comes to worst, you still have two warriors you can upgrade.

I would still bribe Liz off Alex, THEN DoW her, all this turn. Why not? Better odds of keeping the lh, etc. Plus, for all we know, Liz has 3 galleons full of units ready to unload at Athens this turn. We can't see into the fog. Why gamble with the devil? Trust me, FiveAces, the frustration of getting funked off is a thousands times worse than giving her PP, espeically if we're about to take her out anyway.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 08:36 AM
I'm still seeing going for Cuzco now coming at the expense of Bombay. Asoka is not a broken AI and by going for Bombay now we might be able to get it before he gets chemistry. Sidetracking Cuzco makes that less likely.

What is the benefit of taking Cuzco now as opposed to say 8-10 turns from now?

klarius
Jun 29, 2008, 09:03 AM
Doesn't matter if we DoW Liz now or in a few turns, further progress in England will not happen anytime soon. Troops in Athens need to heal. And after that they will probably load again on galleons and wait for the fleet to be filled.
So maybe really forget about Cuzco for the next turn set.

Edit:
And don't underestimate the war weariness we will face. If we let KK take 3 cities from surviving civs in the next 2 turns we might need around 30-40% culture before we even have steel.

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 09:12 AM
I'm still seeing going for Cuzco now coming at the expense of Bombay. Asoka is not a broken AI and by going for Bombay now we might be able to get it before he gets chemistry. Sidetracking Cuzco makes that less likely.

What is the benefit of taking Cuzco now as opposed to say 8-10 turns from now?I'm just not sure Cuzco is sidetracking. If we and KK have to kill off 6 defenders, maybe. But if we're planning to Dow Liz anyway, then it doesn't hurt to see if she'll send out those attackers. I think she will. Fred did. Then you're not sidetracking K but moving him forward, closer to Bombay.

I would still use two of those W grens to pillage Asoka's copper (xbow-defended) and other hammer tiles. I'm more concerned with Bombay's hammer production than Asoka getting grens. You should be able to attack Bombay very soon anyway.

By the way, the cat that I gifted to KK in Madrid is now a defender, so he sent all his other attackers forward.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 09:18 AM
Well I'm inclined to pass on Cuzco, though not certain yet. But that brings up an interesting point - what's Liz gonna do with the Cuzco units if we DOW her in say 5 turns to shut off her seafood? That gonna put hamburg in any kind of danger or will kk be able to hold his own?

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 09:56 AM
I am also reluctant to dow Lizzie now. There are several unknowns involved:


Pillaging of our seafood?
Amphibious landing at Murky?
Strength at York, maybe she sends some units towards Murky. Or she kills off our cats that are in the open near Washington.
Do we lose momentum on Asoka? Probably, if we will make a try for Cuzco.
As LC points out, she could send in reinforcements to Athens by boat.


The big benefit that I see is that we can avoid giving up PP. But I think that we can still prevent her from reaching Rifling by using the two Frigates and razing Nottingham during FiveAces' turnset. So I am all for a dow within 5t max (I would prefer 3t but 5t is also ok).

klarius
Jun 29, 2008, 12:02 PM
Another problem:
Our relations to the other continent are getting worse and worse. A DoW on Liz will again give a bunch of negatives. Before doing so, we should at least look what we want still from Hatty. We will lose her pleased attitude and will fall back to effectively annoyed for the team.

FiveAces
Jun 29, 2008, 12:04 PM
ok I think I have it figured out. we will DOW liz and split the difference between gnejs 3 turns and my 5 turns because after looking at the map 4 turns seems to work exactly right. PPP will be updated shortly.

EDIT: PPP updated http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6975875&postcount=3125

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 12:33 PM
FiveAces:

I going to give you possibly contradictory suggestions here:

1. Don't go against your better judgment.

My only serious regret from my turnset is that I decided to send Asoka on Fred. I didn't want to, but I became persuaded to do so. I had observed that his power graph was stagnant. I argued that this would just make him go from building to warring. I was right, his power gragh jumped upwards. Fkme. Throughout this game I have been saying that we didn't want to risk having someone else capture KK's targets. Then I went and DoWed Asoka and he captured Hamburg. Fkme. Asoka also pillaged our roads to the north. Fkme. And finally, his borders expanded, eliminating a quick follow-up attack on Kyoto but having his rice 1 move away. Fkme. Never again will I go against my better judgment.

2. Bribe Liz to DoP Athens, then DoW Liz this turn.

As is, I think the chances that KK captures Hamburg this turn are slim. First of all, the xbow and muskets to the west have been pillaging for the last half a dozen turns. There's no good indicator that they will help capture Hamburg. That leaves KK with 4 grens (1 partially damaged) and a cat to take out 4 units. Now sure, he could capture if he sends all five units. But will he? Who knows? Just imagine how you'll feel if KK attacks with one gren and sends the others to Sparta to load his galleons?

What I really like about DoWing Liz this turn is that you can use the 3 Madrid grens to red-line Hamburg, thus guaranteeing quick capture. You want to capture Bombay asap? Then it's better to keep KK's grens healthy.

Liz's 4 attackers in Cuzco will go on the attack, whenever you DoW her. Mark my words. Would you prefer to Dow her in 4 turns and have a Cuzco Cancer in KK's gut or DoW her now and keep all of her units outside of KK's domain?

You will have no problems defending against Liz. We have 11 cities left to capture. Grab them while you can.

My other regret from my turnset is that I'm not playing my last two turns... ;)

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 12:43 PM
EDIT: PPP updated Looks good to me. Don't forget that Asoka might send a stack toward Murky now that he's done with his war with Fred.

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 12:44 PM
ok I think I have it figured out. we will DOW liz and split the difference between gnejs 3 turns and my 5 turns because after looking at the map 4 turns seems to work exactly right. PPP will be updated shortly.

EDIT: PPP updated http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6975875&postcount=3125

Looking good! :goodjob:

May I suggest that you bribe Washington into slavery for theology also?

Is there anything useful we can get out of Hattie before the dow on Lizzie? EDIT: No, I think not. She has Nationalism, but I don't see that we have any need for it.

jesusin
Jun 29, 2008, 01:35 PM
ok I think I have it figured out. we will DOW liz and split the difference between gnejs 3 turns and my 5 turns because after looking at the map 4 turns seems to work exactly right. PPP will be updated shortly.

EDIT: PPP updated http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6975875&postcount=3125

It's ok with me.

May I suggest the turn before KK loses a city as a stopping point?

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 02:16 PM
FiveAces, you also have the option to bribe Cathy and/or Louis against JC. Or Asoka.

Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if they razed Rome for us. Kublai has a settler waiting in Karakorum...

Gnejs
Jun 29, 2008, 03:13 PM
Enough with the suggestions from me. Good luck, FiveAces! :goodjob:

LowtherCastle
Jun 29, 2008, 05:25 PM
This new strategy of starving Liz and razing Rome and the like might push our population to the lower limit. I'm thinking maybe Gnejs is right about Biology. I kind of doubt we're going to need anything but grens anyway. So mabye BIology is the safest bet.

FiveAces
Jun 30, 2008, 06:26 AM
I will be playing a few turns around 8PM my time tonight. I will not DOW Liz immediately but will have at least 2 units near Cuzco to deal with any attackers when I do DOW.

FiveAces
Jun 30, 2008, 06:32 AM
Looking good! :goodjob:

May I suggest that you bribe Washington into slavery for theology also?

Is there anything useful we can get out of Hattie before the dow on Lizzie? EDIT: No, I think not. She has Nationalism, but I don't see that we have any need for it.

Is 1 turn anarchy worth giving him the ability to rush units once we DOW? They do that in vanilla, right? Just not as often as in BTS?

It's ok with me.

May I suggest the turn before KK loses a city as a stopping point?

Good suggestion. I will do that if needed.

FiveAces, you also have the option to bribe Cathy and/or Louis against JC. Or Asoka.

Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if they razed Rome for us. Kublai has a settler waiting in Karakorum...

Will they raze it? I remember an earlier post of klarius? saying that they won't raze the last city of a civ. Does being overseas trump that?

jesusin
Jun 30, 2008, 07:01 AM
Spain won! Flag attached.

:beer: hics

Gnejs
Jun 30, 2008, 08:30 AM
Is 1 turn anarchy worth giving him the ability to rush units once we DOW? They do that in vanilla, right? Just not as often as in BTS?



Good suggestion. I will do that if needed.



Will they raze it? I remember an earlier post of klarius? saying that they won't raze the last city of a civ. Does being overseas trump that?

Washington will probably revolt back in five turns. :)
Even better if they don't raze Rome. We get rid of all the culture and KK can capture it much quicker. Can Beshbalik even culture flip it? Perhaps if we settle our GA there.

Gnejs
Jun 30, 2008, 08:33 AM
Spain won! Flag attached.

:beer: hics

jesusin, congrats! :)
klarius, my condoleances. :(

EDIT: That looks like an Austrian flag...:lol:

morpheus11
Jun 30, 2008, 08:53 AM
Spain won! Flag attached.

:beer: hics

Congrats to Spain. They played really well.

klarius
Jun 30, 2008, 09:13 AM
Even better if they don't raze Rome. We get rid of all the culture and KK can capture it much quicker. Can Beshbalik even culture flip it? Perhaps if we settle our GA there.
They don't raze Rome, but I also see little chance that they capture it at all, unless we really set our money on them and gift chemistry.
If we don't do this, I would rather set Cathy on Hatty, to get them to pillage each other.
I would get nationalism from Hatty first, just in case :). I don't see a use currently, but it may still serve as trade bait. If we had it now, we could have avoided giving out PP. We also see what the others are researching in this branch. As we give out PP anyway I don't see that we need to keep it away from Hatty.
Don't put KK on RP. Put him on biology. I don't see any use for RP (I don't want KK build lumber mills and neglect roads for that) and we don't want to speed up others or make the first to get it, trade it. If at a later time we should think we need it, we research it after other people have it, so we get a discount, not them.

klarius
Jun 30, 2008, 09:20 AM
Is 1 turn anarchy worth giving him the ability to rush units once we DOW? They do that in vanilla, right? Just not as often as in BTS?

Well, will we DoW within 10 turns? Otherwise it's likely that he will revolt back to serfdom, so it's 2 turns of anarchy we get. Slavery will not do much for vanilla deity, anyway. He may rush one unit (in danger mode), but will then probably stay away from rushing for 10 turns.

Gnejs
Jun 30, 2008, 09:29 AM
Well, if his slider falls too low, he's in "financial trouble". That means he might raze cities or disband troops.

Sounds like something we don't want to happen. Is there a certain threshold (for his slider?) that we can look for and prevent?

From CvPlayerAI.cpp:

bool CvPlayerAI::AI_isFinancialTrouble()
{
if (getCommercePercent(COMMERCE_GOLD) > (((GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getAnyWarPlanCount(true) > 0) ? 60 : 40)))
{
if (calculateBaseNetGold() < 0)
{
return true;
}

if (!AI_avoidScience())
{
return true;
}


if (isCurrentResearchRepeat())
{
if (getCommercePercent(COMMERCE_RESEARCH) == 0)
{
return true;
}
}
}

return false;
}

I interpret this as follows: Financial trouble occurs when the AI has more than 60% gold (40% gold at peacetime) and is having negative gpt.

LowtherCastle
Jun 30, 2008, 10:27 AM
I interpret this as follows: Financial trouble occurs when the AI has more than 60% gold (40% gold at peacetime) and is having negative gpt.So how to interpret your interpretation? ;)

Are you saying that the AI is in financial trouble when he has neg gpt with his commerce slider at 70% or more?

klarius
Jun 30, 2008, 10:27 AM
I interpret this as follows: Financial trouble occurs when the AI has more than 60% gold (40% gold at peacetime) and is having negative gpt.
No, it doesn't need negative gpt.
The condition !AI_avoidScience() is always true in a normal game, unless through with the whole tech tree. So its just the 50% or 70% gold rate.
And note: The AI will increase the gold rate not only if they have negative gpt, but also if they are below their cash target, which is:
(gameTurn + numberCities*3 + totalPopulation/3)
1.5 times this value if at war.
In this case they set the gold rate so they get 1/8 of the target positive gpt.

LowtherCastle
Jun 30, 2008, 10:31 AM
Spain won! Flag attached.

:beer: hicsCongratulations. Hope you're sober by the time your turnset rolls around.



[party]

LowtherCastle
Jun 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
(gameTurn + numberCities*3 + totalPopulation/3)
1.5 times this value if at war.
In this case they set the gold rate so they get 1/8 of the target positive gptSo KK needs gold reserves of about 300g now and about 450g by the time we expect to win.

FiveAces
Jun 30, 2008, 11:51 AM
klarius, you want to give Hatty PP and Liberalism for Nationalism?
Isn't that a bit much? PP has a low research priority - Liz should be the only one with it for a while...

EDIT: Ok I'm not going to play tonight since I would like the thoughts of others on the two issues klarius has raised, once of which I think might be a good idea but I don't want to semi-unilaterally do:

1) Trade PP+Lib for Nationalism from Hatty. I'm not in favor of spreading PP further. I say if we want nationalism, trade sci meth for it along with economics or something

2) Bribe Cathy to DOW Hatty. This I'm inclined to do since it should only serve to slow them down.

I WILL play tomorrow night, so please chime in by then if you feel strongly about either of these issues :)

BTW - I agree to go bio instead of RP.

klarius
Jun 30, 2008, 12:19 PM
klarius, you want to give Hatty PP and Liberalism for Nationalism?
Isn't that a bit much? PP has a low research priority - Liz should be the only one with it for a while...
I have no problem with giving PP to Hatty, especially if we get her a nice war with Cathy :). I doubt she will be able to speed up the way to rifling - that will be Liz anyway.

Gnejs
Jun 30, 2008, 12:33 PM
klarius, you want to give Hatty PP and Liberalism for Nationalism?
Isn't that a bit much? PP has a low research priority - Liz should be the only one with it for a while...

EDIT: Ok I'm not going to play tonight since I would like the thoughts of others on the two issues klarius has raised, once of which I think might be a good idea but I don't want to semi-unilaterally do:

1) Trade PP+Lib for Nationalism from Hatty. I'm not in favor of spreading PP further. I say if we want nationalism, trade sci meth for it along with economics or something

2) Bribe Cathy to DOW Hatty. This I'm inclined to do since it should only serve to slow them down.

I WILL play tomorrow night, so please chime in by then if you feel strongly about either of these issues :)

BTW - I agree to go bio instead of RP.

Gaaah! I had already brought out the popcorn in the hope of an enjoyable evening reading about your turnset! :gripe:

1) I agree. We don't want PP to spread and we don't have any current needs for Nationalism (though if we had it I am sure LC would come up with a scheme to produce two units per turn using Nationhood :))

2) I'd rather set Cathy on someone on our continent. Giving techs to the other continent to slow them down seems counterproductive... ;)

FiveAces
Jun 30, 2008, 12:48 PM
Gaaah! I had already brought out the popcorn in the hope of an enjoyable evening reading about your turnset! :gripe:

1) I agree. We don't want PP to spread and we don't have any current needs for Nationalism (though if we had it I am sure LC would come up with a scheme to produce two units per turn using Nationhood :))

2) I'd rather set Cathy on someone on our continent. Giving techs to the other continent to slow them down seems counterproductive... ;)

Getting late here now and I don't want to rush to finish turns before I'm sleepy so I'm afraid you'll have to make another batch of popcorn tomorrow ;)

2) They're outdated techs though - a combination of astro edu and guilds. And I would have to give her astro anyway to be able to reach somebody on our continent. Klarius is right - she can't do anything on our continent unless we give her chem. They should just pillage the heck out of each other. And maybe even bribe the other civs over there to join.

Gnejs
Jun 30, 2008, 12:53 PM
Well, I don't have any strong feelings on 2) so do as you see fit.

Btw, does Cathy have horses?

klarius
Jun 30, 2008, 02:35 PM
2) I'd rather set Cathy on someone on our continent. Giving techs to the other continent to slow them down seems counterproductive... ;)
It's not about slowing down tech. It's about population control. If it continues (likely) that KK gets only well pillaged cities, population will be a problem for domination.

klarius
Jun 30, 2008, 02:43 PM
Btw, does Cathy have horses?
There are only 2 horsies on the map. One in Persia and one in France.

FiveAces
Jun 30, 2008, 11:16 PM
There are only 2 horsies on the map. One in Persia and one in France.

One in Timbuktu also IIRC.

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 01:11 AM
Well if we're concerned about pop, I suppose I could pre-farm our cottages after the pre-workshops.

jesusin
Jul 01, 2008, 02:22 AM
EDIT: That looks like an Austrian flag...:lol:

:eek:
I had never heard that they had Cured Iberian Ham in Austria!

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 02:24 AM
:eek:
I had never heard that they had Cured Iberian Ham in Austria!

Probably not. I was going by the colours... :p

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 06:13 AM
World Population

Painstaking calculations show that the following population gains are reasonably possible:

Mansa Musa -5
Catty +8
Louis +6
Hatty +9
Cyrus +8
Sal +27 (including +15 from Najra and Kufah which don't appear to have granaries, so not likely, I guess)

Total gain 53, putting world pop at 496, domination limit for us 189.

If we send out some frigates, we can swing potential pop gains to pop losses. Here are potential population swings if we apply frigates:

Cyrus:
1 frigate: -15

Sal
1 frigate: -11
2 frigates: -18
including 0 losses from Najra and Kufah

Catty
1 frigate: -11

Louis
1 frigate: -11

Hatty
1 frigate: -7

Conclusion:
By far the most pronounced gains would be 1 frigate at Cyrus and Sal, then Louis and Catty. War pillaging of sea and land food will also help, obviously.

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 06:39 AM
klarius, you want to give Hatty PP and Liberalism for Nationalism?
Isn't that a bit much? PP has a low research priority - Liz should be the only one with it for a while...

EDIT: Ok I'm not going to play tonight since I would like the thoughts of others on the two issues klarius has raised, once of which I think might be a good idea but I don't want to semi-unilaterally do:

1) Trade PP+Lib for Nationalism from Hatty. I'm not in favor of spreading PP further. I say if we want nationalism, trade sci meth for it along with economics or something

2) Bribe Cathy to DOW Hatty. This I'm inclined to do since it should only serve to slow them down.

I WILL play tomorrow night, so please chime in by then if you feel strongly about either of these issues :)

BTW - I agree to go bio instead of RP.1. I am also slightly uncomfortable getting PP out to other AIs unnecessarily, but I'm not strongly against it here. It's true that we could have given it to Liz now instead of PP. We haven't been thinking in terms of exit strategies for all these wars, but at this point, I don't even see any potential need for Nationalism. It might get us some extra units after Biology or if we get our health up to around 15 somehow.

2. I agree with World War on the other continent. Cathy on Hatty. Sal is about to DoW Mansa or someone. I recommend we also set Louis on Cyrus right away, unless this might lose us our deals with Cyrus (?).

I wouldn't set Louis on Mansa until Tenochtitlan's population goes down to pop2 or so.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 08:38 AM
Interesting pop analysis, LC. Btw, doesn't the domination pop percentage increase as we kill off civs?

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 09:45 AM
Will play in about an hour.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 10:08 AM
Bringing out the snacks. :)
Good luck!

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 11:38 AM
FiveAces turnset report t142-152

t142 640AD

PP to Liz for DoP Alex +90g
Theo to Wash for slav+10g+WM
Astro+edu to Cathy for 20g+DOW Hatty
Asoka NW hill is cleared, no loss

IBT: KK captures Athens
Asoka exits bombay and kills 2 of our cats :mad:. We easily kill the WE and cat. He will pay.
Madrid borders expand.

t143 660AD

redline hamburg no loss
york has med mace, CI mace, 3lbm, CI pike, 2 col cat, 1CR cat

IBT: KK captures hamburg.
Cyrus cancels OB's (@+1 cautious?) maybe he was bribed
GE born in York.

t144 680AD

moving towards Bombay/Kyoto w KK in tow
London has (in order of list): C2 mace gall lbm worker settler gall CI WE CR cat gall CI WE CI mace CR cat gall caravel CD lbm CI pike 2 CD lbm 2 col cat and there is another caravel on the w whale
Hamburg is building a theater :crazyeye:

IBT: saladin builds taj, liz builds versailles, cyrus has PP.

t145 700AD

in position on bombay and kyoto.
looks like kk will help with kyoto first
kill 2 city attack units coming out of kyoto, no loss
bombay gold/copper pillaged
asoka has moved a CD musket towards NY, not sure what it's doing but I'm retreating a gren in case it goes towards murky.

IBT: Cyrus cancels the copper for dye/incense. We are his WE at +1 cautious it seems.

t146 720AD

We have happy problems now - slider at 40%. We still get steel next turn.
Asoka invader killed off, no loss. Another appears - frustrating.
Kyoto is down to almost no defense. I can redline next turn if kk moves adjacent to pillage the road.
I have decided not to DOW Liz this turn. I am not sure I can defend while dancing 2-3 units with Asoka. That has left Cuzco unguarded. I may be being too cautious, but I really feel if the DOW is a mistake it could end up a really bad one.

IBT: Decline hatty's request to stop trading with Saladin. The happy is bad enough. jeez.
kk does not move adjacent to Kyoto. :mad:

t147 740AD

We have steel! kk doesn't upgrade any cats. maybe he only does that at the beginning of a turn. set him on bio - 20 turns at 40% culture.

I played the asoka units and then am breaking for the night. We need to decide to DOW Liz or not. Will post the save in a separate post.

[continuing]

t147 (con't)

get deer back from liz
cancel stone trade with liz
copper/marble to cyrus for dye/incense
stone to saladin for 6gpt
borrow 200g from kk
workshop hamlet
optomize murky

IBT: nothing

t148 760AD
lost gren to the murky musket @ 89% :mad:
roading athens corn
frigate to delhi
move units around a bit

IBT: Cathy asks to DOW hatty - No thanks
KK has units @ kyoto seems everybody's going there. I'm not telling him to go to BB since I need the units WSW and there's nothing for them to pillage if they want to change their minds about kyoto.

t149 780AD
Kyoto will fall in 2 turns
in position at BB, in case the 2 W units change their minds
other worker also going S to road S of athens

IBT: Asoka "suicides" and kills the 2 gren escorts coming from BB :mad: but not the 4.5/5.0 cat. moron.
KK moves everything to kyoto
Asoka has PP. No big deal now :D

t150 800AD
redline kyoto. minimal losses! it really hurt him killing the gren escorts. we only lose 3 cats.

IBT: KK captures kyoto :dance:
Hatty asks for PP - Um, NO!

t151 - stopping, no moves made

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 11:44 AM
WTG Kublai, congrats on your two new cities!

Galleons still in Kyoto?

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 12:06 PM
WTG Kublai, congrats on your two new cities!

Galleons still in Kyoto?

Yeah still there. gonna get toasted in a couple turns hopefully. I'm more concerned about Liz. If swhe actually uses her armada we're in trouble. The question is - will she?

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 12:24 PM
Yeah still there. gonna get toasted in a couple turns hopefully. I'm more concerned about Liz. If swhe actually uses her armada we're in trouble. The question is - will she?

I think klarius was of the opinion that she was more likely to send them to Athens.

I count one settler-galleon and three assault-galleons. But only two of the three assault galleons are filled. Anyway, with a Frigate 1N of London those Galleons will not be able to reach our coast in one move. So the 1N Frigate can take out one of them, then a second Frigate could take out the other. Once Lizzie loads up the third galleon we may need another Frigate on standby, or some more land defenders.

klarius
Jul 01, 2008, 12:26 PM
Yeah still there. gonna get toasted in a couple turns hopefully. I'm more concerned about Liz. If swhe actually uses her armada we're in trouble. The question is - will she?
She doesn't seem to have enough troops to fill the galleons (if this is all one assault group). The armada doesn't leave unless all ships are full.

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 01:40 PM
Since Cyrus fked us, set Louis on his a$$. Might as well set Louis on Mansa at the same time.

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 01:44 PM
Ok attached is the mid-turn save I refered to in the report post.

We need to decide to DOW Liz or not. I'm not 100% comfortable with doing it this turn (or else I wouldn't ask :mischief:) I'm also not 100% uncomfortable -

But

1) We have happy problems now that Cyrus canceled the gold/incense trade.
2) We have no units near Cuzco since I'm dancing with Asoka's muskets around NY
3) We have almost no gold (kk has some though)
4) KK has gone into semi-builder mode and isn't really helping with our assault on Asoka.

So

1) DOW Liz now or wait?
2) Build Globe? (I have no overflow but it's only 2 turns now) Also might delay Liz DOW
3) Workshop over the non-river cottages? Makes sense if we're doing globe.

I'm not playing any more tonight so you guys have until tomorrow night again to offer suggestions and analysis.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 02:30 PM
You can trade for Cyrus's Dye and Incense. Just add 4 gpt to the copper and its yours. :) Skip the Globe. Skip the Globe. Skip the Globe.

KK is about to get two longbows to Hamburg for garrison duties, frees up the city attackers there. There is also a bunch of pillagers near Hamburg that will eventually move towards Kyoto. Hopefully. :) Btw, what city have you asked KK to attack, if any?

There is also a garrison otw Athens that will be there in 3t and free up a bunch of units. (6 Grenadiers and a cannon if you dow this turn -> need two more and then they will set sail for London, I guess)

I'd DOW now, and put nothing but Cannons in the build queue for a while. I'd also pillage every tile at Bombay and Delhi, including the towns. KK won't need them, and better safe than sorry on Asokas research.

EDIT: A little bit more long-term, I'd use cannons to redline every single Indian and British city, and pillage the countryside all around them if called for. Then I'd declare war on Washington and JC and redline their cities too. In other words, build Cannons, Cannons, and more Cannons. Don't worry about happiness, we will get rid of the WW as soon as those AIs are killed anyway.

EDIT #2: I see no harm in pillaging a lot. We can build one worker per turn too and farm a bunch of tiles later for quick growth in Kublai's newly aquired cities.

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 02:45 PM
1. You're letting Asoka dictate the NY wars by using W's roads and NY's defenses. 2 grens at NY S-SW and you kill every musket before it even comes close to our borders.
2. Bribe Louis on Cyrus and Mansa +40g and maps for all our techs. EDIT: First trade for his resources (see #8).3. Those are pillaging KK muskets at Kyoto. Gnejs' idea of pillaging roads worked flawlessly in getting KK's units to Hamburg.You stay one step ahead, so they move to the tile, then you pillage it, so that KK's pillagers moved forward rather than stopping. That musket will not move to the rice next turn. It will pillage the road it's on. DOn't forget for a village (between Kyoto and Bombay, you need four pillagers).
4. I disagree slightly with Gnejs on pillaging Bombay and Delhi. After hammers, focus on pillaging everything between Kyoto and Bambay EXCEPT for a single, shortest-path highway. Then you'll do the Gnejs-Warpath technique to get KK to Bombay asap. Follow this up by pillaging a similar path to Delhi.
5. Definitely turn those villages into workshops. Poste haste. Run 41hpt and you'll build up some overflow. No way Globe in 2 turns.
6. DoW on Liz will get our deer back and we'll stop losing food.
EDIT:
7. Get some money from KK and upgrade the cat at Nottingham to a cannon. Don't worry about KK's money. He won't even use 100g to upgrade all his cats. Just don't let him go below 450g or so.
8. Cyrus: dyes for copper and and incense for marble. 2 separate deals. No need to give him gpt.
9. Watch London each turn to see if a 2nd galleon is full.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 02:53 PM
I calculate that two frigates at London and razing Nottingham will cost Liz 58 raw commerce (includes the bureaucracy bonus). Add in libraries and academies at both cities and this translates to a loss of at least 100 beakers per turn.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 02:55 PM
Don't bribe Louis on Cyrus, only on Mansa. Otherwise we might be feeding the beasts and we also hurt our chances of prolonging our Incense/Dye deal with Cyrus.

klarius
Jul 01, 2008, 02:57 PM
I don't see any reason to DoW Liz. In fact don't do it before there is a stack at York and/or Cuzco. There is absolutely no gain in razing Nottingham now, IMO. We might even want to keep it for last and gift our GA to KK for York or London.
We could also think to CF Asoka before DoWing Liz, if it looks we will anyway not get KK to Delhi soon.

I would anyway cancel the trades with Liz. Why are we still trading a health resource away? And why are we trading for clams which we don't need?
We can probably take KK's whale.

You can get dyes and incense again from Cyrus (for copper and marble). He canceled it just because he doesn't value copper anymore enough for 2 resources, not because of attitude (he trades luxes at annoyed to our team).

@LC: A war between Louis and Mansa isn't good, IMO. Mansa has now nicely gotten the Aztec towns with very little tiles to work, so they will stay small. If Tenochtitlan falls to Louis it will grow. And BTW, Mansa doesn't like us enough for war

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 03:08 PM
Ok a feel better about the state of play now. I was missing the forest for the trees. Keep the comments up though, there's a lot of good ideas being presented.

@LC - I meant to let him hide in NY - I didn't realize Asoka got the culture benefit from Wash's city if he put a unit in there :blush: Won't make that mistake again.

EDIT: Well I just saw klarius's post so it seems there isn't consensus on Liz.

@klarius - no, when Cyrus cancelled the trade I ask to renegotiate for that reason and moused over the resources which were redded out and the message we'll never trade with you our worse enemy popped up. Same last turn. I didn't look at the trades yet this turn (same reason we're still trading the deer away) so that must have changed IBT.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 03:24 PM
I don't see any reason to DoW Liz. In fact don't do it before there is a stack at York and/or Cuzco. There is absolutely no gain in razing Nottingham now, IMO. We might even want to keep it for last and gift our GA to KK for York or London.
We could also think to CF Asoka before DoWing Liz, if it looks we will anyway not get KK to Delhi soon.

I see plenty of reasons, the big one being research. Nottingham produces beakers and culture. Razing it will lose us maybe one tile, the peak 2S Nottingham (but maybe our culture will grab it after the next expansion?). And London under Bureaucracy is probably producing at least 80% of Lizzie's total research. We can stop that with very little effort, just the two frigates plus some units for her to suicide against. If we also put a unit or two on top of Yorks FP farm she will have only 2 surplus food there = 1 scientist + some riverside farms. Very little commerce there also...

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 03:24 PM
@LC: A war between Louis and Mansa isn't good, IMO. Mansa has now nicely gotten the Aztec towns with very little tiles to work, so they will stay small. If Tenochtitlan falls to Louis it will grow. And BTW, Mansa doesn't like us enough for warLouis likes us enough to DoW Mansa, but I agree with you on keeping those cities small.

So only Louis on Cyrus. We want those two pillaging each other's resources. They both have knights. Should be juicy.

Gnejs: Who cares if we lose those happy resources? It's far more important to beat down the population on the other continent. We can always build GLobe in 1 turn. Sooner or later, 1 unit more or less won't make any difference.

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 03:27 PM
I see plenty of reasons, the big one being research. Nottingham produces beakers and culture. Razing it will lose us maybe one tile, the peak 2S Nottingham (but maybe our culture will grab it after the next expansion?). And London under Bureaucracy is probably producing at least 80% of Lizzie's total research. We can stop that with very little effort, just the two frigates plus some units for her to suicide against.I totally agree with DoWing Liz. Her research will go to nought with 2 frigates and losing Nottingham. Her production will be squat. She will become a non-factor almost over night. If she sends units at us, all the better, just make it easier to capture her cities.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 03:35 PM
Louis likes us enough to DoW Mansa, but I agree with you on keeping those cities small.

So only Louis on Cyrus. We want those two pillaging each other's resources. They both have knights. Should be juicy.

Gnejs: Who cares if we lose those happy resources? It's far more important to beat down the population on the other continent. We can always build GLobe in 1 turn. Sooner or later, 1 unit more or less won't make any difference.

I'm not so concerned with the happy resources. More with the fact that Cyrus is one tech away from cavalry while Louis is terrribly backwards. Are you certain that Cyrus won't conquer Paris or Orleans?

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 03:37 PM
I'm not so concerned with the happy resources. More with the fact that Cyrus is one tech away from cavalry while Louis is terrribly backwards. Are you certain that Cyrus won't conquer Paris or Orleans?I like it. Then we trade Cyrus for horsies if his culture can consume them.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 03:48 PM
I like it. Then we trade Cyrus for horsies if his culture can consume them.

It won't and Cyrus will probably be too annoyed with us to trade them anyway.

At least we should wait and see until Saladin makes his move. If Saladin dows Cyrus then I would gladly bribe Louis to join the fun. :)

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 04:09 PM
I'm not sure we have enough units at Kyoto to redline it. There are 11 defenders and we have 10 units of which several will need to suicide. Perhaps we should retreat the cats and/or chokos to Hamburg for upgrading or gifting.
I also do't think we need more hammers in Murkyopolis, rather keep the cottages for upgrade cash.

Gnejs
Jul 01, 2008, 04:12 PM
Perhaps also send the Kyoto frigate to Delhi to encourage Asoka's armada to set sail.

LowtherCastle
Jul 01, 2008, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure we have enough units at Kyoto to redline it. There are 11 defenders and we have 10 units of which several will need to suicide. Perhaps we should retreat the cats and/or chokos to Hamburg for upgrading or gifting.I see your point. I hadn't even examined FIveAces' line-up at Kyoto. :blush: KK is about to bring a lot of units to Kyoto, probably no time to withdraw and upgrade. I'd just send the 3 grens and 2 cats that are near Bombay straight down to Kyoto. If they get there early they can pillage the village at Kyoto NW and the mine at Kyoto N, while waiting to red-line.
I also do't think we need more hammers in Murkyopolis, rather keep the cottages for upgrade cash.If you want cannons, cannons, cannons, you need 37hpt. For 37 hpt at pop15, you need two more workshops. I want cannons too, ergo, I want 37hpt and 2 more wkshps.
Perhaps also send the Kyoto frigate to Delhi to encourage Asoka's armada to set sail.Good idea, but why toward Delhi? No need to bombard there yet. Maybe the firgate will get a chance to take out a galleon. I'd just send the frigate back to Madrid NE. And put the Madrid gren N on the hill. From there he can sooner move into action after taking Kyoto, prevents Asoka from landing on teh hill and can also attack Madrid E, if necessary.

FiveAces
Jul 01, 2008, 11:32 PM
I'm not sure we have enough units at Kyoto to redline it. There are 11 defenders and we have 10 units of which several will need to suicide. Perhaps we should retreat the cats and/or chokos to Hamburg for upgrading or gifting.
I also do't think we need more hammers in Murkyopolis, rather keep the cottages for upgrade cash.

I'm with LC that we need the workshops. Both will be done this turn.

I think there is (barely) enough there to redline in 2 turns, using the gren and msot choku's twice. But that does require no bad luck in the combat results.

I'm still not sure about Liz but I am leaning that way. The sticking point for me is Cuzco. There are 8 decent units there. We can not counter immediately, so it will be up to kk to manage them. His grens can handle if he's not stupid.

OTOH, if we do nothing those 8 units could become 10-12 by the time we do DOW...

klarius
Jul 02, 2008, 12:03 AM
If we DoW Liz now, KK's grens in England will be thrown back towards Athens. Then he will probably start to suicide units on Cuzco and maybe also York or London w/o us being prepared to help. Probably nothing left for Bombay then.
I'm against splitting KK's forces now w/o gaining at least a city for it. I was fine with taking Cuzco for an immediate DoW, but now I don't see that we gain an English city, but lose the momentum on India.

klarius
Jul 02, 2008, 12:28 AM
OTOH, if we do nothing those 8 units could become 10-12 by the time we do DOW...
Why should this be so? There is no reason for Liz to collect units in Cuzco. If she will amass units then in London to fill her galleons. As long as we don't DoW Cuzco will build missing buildings - not units.

FiveAces
Jul 02, 2008, 01:01 AM
Why should this be so? There is no reason for Liz to collect units in Cuzco. If she will amass units then in London to fill her galleons. As long as we don't DoW Cuzco will build missing buildings - not units.

I thought there were 2 less units when I inheireted the save then there are now: 6 vs. 8. Perhaps I misinterpreted LC's report or the additional were lagging attackers. Or maybe there were 8 there all along. I can't open the save now to check.

If they are not new-builds, then I feel better about delaying.

But at the same time there is a strong argument for decimating her research capability right now.

klarius let me ask you this - if we don't DOW now and cut her research, she will get grens and likely redcoats before we finish her off. Do you think cannons will be sufficient or do you have another plan.

LowtherCastle
Jul 02, 2008, 01:15 AM
@LC - I meant to let him hide in NY - I didn't realize Asoka got the culture benefit from Wash's city if he put a unit in there :blush: Won't make that mistake again.I know what you mean. :lol: Still, you're not blocking the chokepoint. Single muskets go on pillaging binges. Its next move is to the deer, I bet. Then what?
I think there is (barely) enough there to redline in 2 turns, using the gren and msot choku's twice. But that does require no bad luck in the combat results.A 2-turn red-line gives Asoka time to bring in back-ups from both Bombay and Delhi. Then you're toast.
If we DoW Liz now, KK's grens in England will be thrown back towards Athens. Then he will probably start to suicide units on Cuzco and maybe also York or London w/o us being prepared to help. Probably nothing left for Bombay then.Okay, this is the strongest point anyone made yet, imo. Those two KK grens NE of Athens are probably headed straight for Bombay and can be there in 3 turns. So FiveAces may have a golden opportunity here. Bombay will be easy to red-line, so I would postpone DoW on Liz, and send the 3 grens and 2 cats I mentioned before to Kyoto and send the Nottingham gren + cannon upgrade straight to Bombay, along with the next couple of cannons built and the pillaging gren to the N of Bombay. That's plenty for Bombay.

We now have the wherewithal to stone-age Liz's research at a moment's notice. We don't need to till she gets RepParts. She still won't ever get to RedCoats I don't think, especially if we raze Nottingham. Plus, she only has a couple of maces plus whatever in York, so gren upgrades aren't a problem either.

EDIT: Send the gren at Nottingham to the deer this turn to foil Asoka's musket evil intentions. The cat moves 2 tiles SE, then upgrades to a cannon.

LowtherCastle
Jul 02, 2008, 01:19 AM
@klarius

Million-dollar question I always wanted answered but kept forgetting to ask: If we tell KK to attack Kyoto and then Bombay during the same turnset, do both requests have an effect or only the first or the second?

LowtherCastle
Jul 02, 2008, 01:24 AM
I thought there were 2 less units when I inheireted the save then there are now: 6 vs. 8. Perhaps I misinterpreted LC's report or the additional were lagging attackers. Or maybe there were 8 there all along. I can't open the save now to check.

If they are not new-builds, then I feel better about delaying.He only had five units when you started, all attackers. Since then he has brought in 2 CGI lbs and an unpromoted lb. So those five attackers are ready to rumble.

klarius
Jul 02, 2008, 01:33 AM
@klarius

Million-dollar question I always wanted answered but kept forgetting to ask: If we tell KK to attack Kyoto and then Bombay during the same turnset, do both requests have an effect or only the first or the second?
The effect of telling him a target city is immediate setting the target city and you can change your mind as often as you like. It will be used then on his turn.
If he resets it randomly before his units move or if he has any units at all that will target a city is another question.
Pretty sure no unit near the front will get into target city mode if we DoW Liz, as there will be units to attack or tiles to pillage everywhere.

klarius
Jul 02, 2008, 01:38 AM
klarius let me ask you this - if we don't DOW now and cut her research, she will get grens and likely redcoats before we finish her off. Do you think cannons will be sufficient or do you have another plan.
Cannons and grens are enough for everything short of large amounts of infantry. And even that can be done if it's only a city or 2 left.

FiveAces
Jul 02, 2008, 01:45 AM
I'm leaning strongly now towards not DOWing Liz before Bombay falls at the earliest. And following LC's unit move suggestions.

Does anybody have any strong objections otherwise?

On Kyoto - Will Asoka reinforce it if I take it down to only 3 defenders first turn of redline? I would only do this if the musket moves adjacent. That was my original plan but I was assuming no reinforcements would arrive as it would have the required number of defenders. But I am not sure now, and I definitely don't want to lose units futilely.

klarius
Jul 02, 2008, 01:50 AM
I recommend to not suicide our cats at Kyoto, but retreat them and gift them to KK for upgrade. The defense can be kept at 0 by the frigate and KK should then have a bunch of attack city units near.

FiveAces
Jul 02, 2008, 01:56 AM
I recommend to not suicide our cats at Kyoto, but retreat them and gift them to KK for upgrade. The defense can be kept at 0 by the frigate and KK should then have a bunch of attack city units near.

That's a good idea. I'll cover them with the healthy gren and a choku or the WE will attack. Which will leave the other choku's to hold the forest - that should be sufficient to prevent an attack there too yes?

LowtherCastle
Jul 02, 2008, 02:01 AM
I recommend to not suicide our cats at Kyoto, but retreat them and gift them to KK for upgrade. The defense can be kept at 0 by the frigate and KK should then have a bunch of attack city units near.Good idea. We could also just gift them in Kyoto, depending on where we want KK to send them next--toward Bombay and Delhi or toward Liz.

Edit: The thing about retreating them now is that they might still come in handy, cleaning up the red-line. If KK only has 2 units there and you get it down to three 0.4/6 lbs, then we delay the capture a turn.

FiveAces
Jul 02, 2008, 02:06 AM
Good idea. We could also just gift them in Kyoto, depending on where we want KK to send them next--toward Bombay and Delhi or toward Liz.

Well we have to take Kyoto first though, and I think klarius point is it will cost most of the cats to do that on our own, but if we give them to kk he will bring them back as cannons and then they should stay alive. So we delay the ability to (possibly) redline a few turns to save 3-4 units and take it for sure, assuming kk uses the cannons.

jesusin
Jul 02, 2008, 02:20 AM
2 cities less to go!

I am very hesitant about gifting our cats.

I agree with delaying Lizzy's dow.

FiveAces
Jul 02, 2008, 02:32 AM
2 cities less to go!

I am very hesitant about gifting our cats.

I agree with delaying Lizzy's dow.

Why are you worried about gifting cats when we can build 1 accuracy cannon per turn from now until forever? Is it tactical location? If so please explain why keeping 4 cats at kyoto is critical. We will still have the 2 cats from Bombay and 4 chokus there for collateral damage when we are ready to redline.

Gnejs
Jul 02, 2008, 02:38 AM
I see your point. I hadn't even examined FIveAces' line-up at Kyoto. :blush: KK is about to bring a lot of units to Kyoto, probably no time to withdraw and upgrade. I'd just send the 3 grens and 2 cats that are near Bombay straight down to Kyoto. If they get there early they can pillage the village at Kyoto NW and the mine at Kyoto N, while waiting to red-line.

How will we redline Bombay then?

If you want cannons, cannons, cannons, you need 37hpt. For 37 hpt at pop15, you need two more workshops. I want cannons too, ergo, I want 37hpt and 2 more wkshps.

We have 35 hpt now. A workshop over one cottage - not the village the workers are standing on now but the hamlet 1S - gives us 38 hpt which is one more hammer than we need.

Good idea, but why toward Delhi? No need to bombard there yet. Maybe the firgate will get a chance to take out a galleon. I'd just send the frigate back to Madrid NE. And put the Madrid gren N on the hill. From there he can sooner move into action after taking Kyoto, prevents Asoka from landing on teh hill and can also attack Madrid E, if necessary.

A frigate at Delhi is for the same reason as the two frigates at London. Asoka is still way above everyone else except Saladin in GNP. 186 commerce per turn... A Frigate at Delhi removes 9 commerce and 7 food surplus in a Bureaucracy capital.

Gnejs
Jul 02, 2008, 02:47 AM
Okay, this is the strongest point anyone made yet, imo. Those two KK grens NE of Athens are probably headed straight for Bombay and can be there in 3 turns. So FiveAces may have a golden opportunity here. Bombay will be easy to red-line, so I would postpone DoW on Liz, and send the 3 grens and 2 cats I mentioned before to Kyoto and send the Nottingham gren + cannon upgrade straight to Bombay, along with the next couple of cannons built and the pillaging gren to the N of Bombay. That's plenty for Bombay.

The only good reason for not dowing Lizzie is these two grens. Are we sure that they will move to Bombay? What if they are going to pillage Asokas farms near Cuzco?

It could be very frustrating waiting for them to arrive at Bombay. OTOH, if we dow Lizzie now they will teleport back to Athens and may board the galleons instead.

Gnejs
Jul 02, 2008, 02:50 AM
I recommend to not suicide our cats at Kyoto, but retreat them and gift them to KK for upgrade. The defense can be kept at 0 by the frigate and KK should then have a bunch of attack city units near.

I'd gift the chokos too. Unless we can actually redline Kyoto. klarius, can units near the city prevent the armada from sailing?