How will we redline Bombay then?



We have 35 hpt now. A workshop over one cottage - not the village the workers are standing on now but the hamlet 1S - gives us 38 hpt which is one more hammer than we need.



A frigate at Delhi is for the same reason as the two frigates at London. Asoka is still way above everyone else except Saladin in GNP. 186 commerce per turn... A Frigate at Delhi removes 9 commerce and 7 food surplus in a Bureaucracy capital.

We're moving grens/cats from Bombay. So by the time kk's units get to Kyoto, we'll have 3-4 grens, 2 cats and 4 choku's that should be enough to at least get it to the point where kk can take it with the gifted cat-cannon stack plus whatever else he brings.

Ok I'll leave the village. It only needs 1 more turn in case we do need the hammers for something later.

I'll think about the frigate. now that KK has one there too it's less critical in case of an assault on Madrid.

We're moving grens/cats from Bombay. So by the time kk's units get to Kyoto, we'll have 3-4 grens, 2 cats and 4 choku's that should be enough to at least get it to the point where kk can take it with the gifted cat-cannon stack plus whatever else he brings.



Will you then have enough units at Bombay to redline it when KK's two grenadiers (hopefully) arrive there in 3 turns?

Why are you worried about gifting cats when we can build 1 accuracy cannon per turn from now until forever? Is it tactical location? If so please explain why keeping 4 cats at kyoto is critical. We will still have the 2 cats from Bombay and 4 chokus there for collateral damage when we are ready to redline.

I haven't opened the save yet (I spilt calimocho on my PC last celebration party:mischief:), so please take my opinions with a grain of salt.

After Bombay we will want to redline another city. And bombard its defenses before that. Those Cats will come handy for the task.
And on a general principle, a unit in our hands is worth more than a unit in KK's hands.

However, if the tactical situation makes impossible for KK to take the city without gifted units, then go ahead.

Well we have to take Kyoto first though, and I think klarius point is it will cost most of the cats to do that on our own, but if we give them to kk he will bring them back as cannons and then they should stay alive. So we delay the ability to (possibly) redline a few turns to save 3-4 units and take it for sure, assuming kk uses the cannons.Okay, I see that now. Our first 3 cats-upgraded won't be able to attack Kyoto for 6 turns. I thought you wanted the glory of capturing Kyoto, but I'm sure jesusin will relish that too. :p

If you look at what KK has around Hamburg, you'll see that the 2 lbs will free up 3 grens and a cat next turn. KK also has a gren, musket, and a cat at Hamburg S, plus the two pillaging muskets. I count a minimum of 6 attacking units arriving at Kyoto in 2 turns. That in fact means that you either strand the two cats at Bombay S or only send 1 of the grens this turn. The other will probably be too late to help red-line Kyoto in 1 turn. But like Gnejs said, you won't be able to fully red-line Kyoto, so you partially do it only if KK has enough units to finish off the job.

So what makes sense to me is to retreat the cats 1 tile and see what KK does with his attackers. If they all move toward Kyoto, then you want to move the cats back to Kyoto and prepare to suicide them. If KK doesn't move enough of his units toward Kyoto, then you have to decide whether to gift the cats or not.

I wouldn't save the cats if you can capture Kyoto in 3 turns. Burn them all. But in any case, keep moving the other 2 grens that are N of Kyoto toward Kyoto. They can also defend against arriving back-ups.

How will we redline Bombay then?Bombay only need 4-5 grens and/or cannons, like this:Bombay will be easy to red-line, so I would postpone DoW on Liz, and send the 3 grens and 2 cats I mentioned before to Kyoto and send the Nottingham gren + cannon upgrade straight to Bombay, along with the next couple of cannons built and the pillaging gren to the N of Bombay. That's plenty for Bombay.

EDIT: Send the gren at Nottingham to the deer this turn to foil Asoka's musket evil intentions. The cat moves 2 tiles SE, then upgrades to a cannon.Since we're not DoWing Liz yet, FiveAces can even send the gren who's on the silver.

We have 35 hpt now. A workshop over one cottage - not the village the workers are standing on now but the hamlet 1S - gives us 38 hpt which is one more hammer than we need. Ok I'll leave the village. It only needs 1 more turn in case we do need the hammers for something later.We have 35hpt and we're starving. Yes, we'll get our deer back, but we also might lose our rice any time. What I'm suggesting is to work two more workshops and one hill mine less. That gives us 37hpt and +2fpt. I feel your pain, giving up that village, Gnejs, but think about it this way, all we're really losing is 2gpt (+50%=3gpt) for upgrades because we still have 3-coin coastal tiles to work.

In fact, we can't even work the village at pop15 anyway, so in reality we're not losing anything--we're trading 1hpt for 2fpt. We don't need the 38th hammer but we could use the food.
A frigate at Delhi is for the same reason as the two frigates at London. Asoka is still way above everyone else except Saladin in GNP. 186 commerce per turn... A Frigate at Delhi removes 9 commerce and 7 food surplus in a Bureaucracy capital.Okay. I'll buy that. :goodjob:

Will you then have enough units at Bombay to redline it when KK's two grenadiers (hopefully) arrive there in 3 turns?

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your question. Let's see this is from memory so eveything is prefaced with IIRC: There's 5 units in BB. If I move the 2 gren, 2 cat stack away, that leaves 2 grens in the vicinity, plus at least 1 gren from NY (possibly wounded). not enough. That assumes it's 4 turns from murky to adajacent to BB. It it's only 3 turns, or if kk's units stop to pillage, then we can also have the nottingham gren, a cannon out of murky and maybe the silver gren there in time. That's plenty.

EDIT: xpost with LC but we're generally thinking along the same lines.

Sounds like you have it all figured out. I will check the save just to convince myself that you are right. :)

Sounds like you have it all figured out. I will check the save just to convince myself that you are right. :)

Well don't worry, I'm gonna check it too before I play :)

We have 35hpt and we're starving. Yes, we'll get our deer back, but we also might lose our rice any time. What I'm suggesting is to work two more workshops and one hill mine less. That gives us 37hpt and +2fpt. I feel your pain, giving up that village, Gnejs, but think about it this way, all we're really losing is 2gpt (+50%=3gpt) for upgrades because we still have 3-coin coastal tiles to work.

In fact, we can't even work the village at pop15 anyway, so in reality we're not losing anything--we're trading 1hpt for 2fpt. We don't need the 38th hammer but we could use the food.


We will never lose the Rice. Ok, we could if someone pillages it, but if that happens we have lost the game already.

I don't like to bulldoze the village because it removes options. If we find ourselves in a situation where we either want to research one additional tech quickly or to break 5000 culture in Murky. In both these cases we may not want to just work a coast instead of a workshop, we might actually want to work all commerce tiles.

And as we can get 38 hpt without it I even consider it a waste of a worker turn. Perhaps we should rather gift our two workers to Kublai? He only has four workers, of which one is stuck on a settler galleon.

Ok, having looked at the save I am ok with sending the units south of Bombay to Kyoto and sending the units at Nottingham and on the Silver to Bombay.

But the esternmost Grenadier at Bombay needs to pillage around Bombay and Delhi. And the first Cannon out of Murky goes to Bombay, the next two go to Nottingham, and the one healing at Murky goes to the silver. Then we dow Lizzie in 4t from now, assuming that KK's two Grenadiers are adjacent to Bombay by then.

We will never lose the Rice. Ha! Are you out of your mind? Gift KK workers so he can cottage the rice again? How do you spell Kubla Khan the Idiot??? We lost the rice for several turns during my turnset. If anything, I'd like to steal KK's workers. When our workers are done with their work at Murky they should go build vital roads speeding up our victory. You know, the roads that we and KK are pillaging.

Okay, we can keep the village under one condition. You and I place a side bet for 100 Euros* that we won't 'need' the village again this game. Put your money where your mouth is... ;)

*And I mean a nice crisp banknote, straight from the press. Not some wrinkled up rag.

Ha! Are you out of your mind? Gift KK workers so he can cottage the rice again? How do you spell Kubla Khan the Idiot??? We lost the rice for several turns during my turnset. If anything, I'd like to steal KK's workers. When our workers are done with their work at Murky they should go build vital roads speeding up our victory. You know, the roads that we and KK are pillaging.

Okay, we can keep the village under one condition. You and I place a side bet for 100 Euros* that we won't 'need' the village again this game. Put your money where your mouth is... ;)

*And I mean a nice crisp banknote, straight from the press. Not some wrinkled up rag.

Sure, we have a bet. :) And since you got to define the amount I get to define 'need'... :) :) :)

Sure, we have a bet. :) And since you got to define the amount I get to define 'need'... :) :) :)You already did:

we either want to research one additional tech quickly or to break 5000 culture in Murky. In both these cases we may not want to just work a coast instead of a workshop, we might actually want to work all commerce tiles.I already know that you lose the culture thing, because I just checked and we can get to 5000:culture: easiliy without the measly 8cpt that village adds. And you'll be in a bind on the research part, because if we don't finish before your turnset, you'll be the laughingstock of CFC if you need another tech to beat down on Julius the Caesar's Pizza. :p

But I would still prefer if you backed out (honorably;)). We've been borrowing from our granary for a couple of turnsets now and we only have 6 bushels left. Plus, it would be nice to build up some overflow in case we need something more likely, such as Globe. Oh, an one more thing, if we grew to pop16, the extra citizen could actually work a commerce tile...

I already know that you lose the culture thing, because I just checked and we can get to 5000:culture: easiliy without the measly 8cpt that village adds. And you'll be in a bind on the research part, because if we don't finish before your turnset, you'll be the laughingstock of CFC if you need another tech to beat down on Julius the Caesar's Pizza. :p

But I would still prefer if you backed out (honorably;)). We've been borrowing from our granary for a couple of turnsets now and we only have 6 bushels left. Plus, it would be nice to build up some overflow in case we need something more likely, such as Globe. Oh, an one more thing, if we grew to pop16, the extra citizen could actually work a commerce tile...

I am not talking about researching Artillery to bombard Rome, if that is what you are thinking. In fact, I would be entirely content to build one cannon per turn from now to eternity (or whenever this game ends). But there is the small risk that we need Biology for pop to reach the domination limit. And that we will end up in a situation where we would have wished that we got Biology just one turn earlier to get the critical population growth for taking us over the limit.
There is also the fact that our workers are much more useful in Kublai-land than at home. Had I understood that we were about to pre-workshop both cottage tiles I would have protested. As it is we have already lost several worker turns. But that doesn't mean we should lose one more unnecessarily.

But ok, this is a quite minor issue. So if you want to honorably back out I wont hold it against you. ;)

FiveAces, I think it will become obvious pretty quickly if KK's two Grenadiers are going to Bombay or not. If they get stuck pillaging Asoka's farms near Cuzco we should give serious consideration to moving our Bombay units there too and dow Lizzie. Just something to consider as you play...

klarius, can units near the city prevent the armada from sailing?
No, it's just a question of the ships being filled (probably will not happen, with lots of other jobs to do) and a target available (sure is).

Why are you worried about gifting cats when we can build 1 accuracy cannon per turn from now until forever?
BTW, no accuracy cannons, please.
Cannons are good enough at knocking down defenses w/o accuracy. And for some time they have good chances to survive a city attack. CR2 is the way to go for cannons, IMO.

Are you going to play again tonight, FiveAces?

Well I finished my turnset. I played until t151 (no moves) because that seemed like a good place to stop and I promised jesusin an extra turn since I accidentally took one from him last time. But mostly since it was a good place to stop. I'm updating the turnset report now.

But if you're impatient... ;)

KK captured kyoto IBT 150-151 :D
We suffered what I consider minimal losses. Bombay can be redlined any time, we have a bunch of choku's and cats left around kyoto, kk has units there (that's where the english ones were going), there's virtually nothing in delhi and asoka is pretty much broken.
our workers are roading s of athens since i couldn't think of anything better to do. sorry if i missed something.
i've also started moving units from bombay towards cuzco and gnejs has his 2 cannons at nottingham (and no klarius i haven't given them accuracy)
i think we will want to wait a turn or two to regroup before dowing liz and maybe gift some of the kyoto units (or maybe not) but that can be the next topic of discussion.
save will be posted soon :)

Bravo, FiveAces!!! Excellent work!

Question for you: Trying to figure out what Liz is researching now. She'll trade us Divine Rule + 10g for Chemistry, but won't trade us Nationalism for SciMeth. Six AIs have Nat and 7 have DivRule. In your last save, she thought we were becoming to advanced. Can you check saves in between to see what sort of trades she'll make?

I still wouldn't DoW Liz. Maybe those two grens will zip back up to Bombay if we target it. Liz still hasn't researched Chemistry or RepParts. I think we should go Bombay-Washington-York. Minimize the number of moves KK has to make with his units. We will have no problems with the population part of domination. Our biggest problem will be cities like London and Delhi coming out of resistance and then expanding their borders. Cuzco is only useful now if it's too distracting for KK.

WTG FiveAces! :goodjob:

Asoka is now totally broken military-wise. Nice! :) But we still need to get KK to capture Bombay soon. I'd redline it this turn using the Cannon. That may draw the Musket next to Cuzco towards Bombay.

This also seems like a good moment to gift the chokos and cats at Kyoto to Kublai. We will probably never afford to upgrade them, and he could use a bunch of city attackers.

I still wouldn't DoW Liz. Maybe those two grens will zip back up to Bombay if we target it. Liz still hasn't researched Chemistry or RepParts. I think we should go Bombay-Washington-York. Minimize the number of moves KK has to make with his units. We will have no problems with the population part of domination. Our biggest problem will be cities like London and Delhi coming out of resistance and then expanding their borders. Cuzco is only useful now if it's too distracting for KK.

I think a DoW on Liz should come very soon. Basically we are only missing a second Gren on the silver and then we are ready to roll. I don't care so much what happens at Cuzco, but I do want to get rid of Nottingham as it ties up some of our units. And also get Lizzie to spend her loose units like the stack in Cuzco.

Going Bombay-Washington-York may cause us to fight an uphill battle with all the culture to wade through. It is probably better to use Washingtons culture to our advantage by leaving it until after York/Cuzco.

Btw, Kublai has some serious stacks in Tiwanaku and Berlin. I wonder what he is planning to do with them?
And also, where is the galleon with three muskets heading? The one next to Sparta.

Maybe if we complete the road to Athens he will fill up his galleons there? Once he does we know it is time to dow Liz if not sooner.

Bravo, FiveAces!!! Excellent work!

Question for you: Trying to figure out what Liz is researching now. She'll trade us Divine Rule + 10g for Chemistry, but won't trade us Nationalism for SciMeth. Six AIs have Nat and 7 have DivRule. In your last save, she thought we were becoming to advanced. Can you check saves in between to see what sort of trades she'll make?

sure but tomorrow though. Bit late here. She did offer us DR+gold for sci meth IBT last turn but I didn't report it since it didn't have diplo effect. I'd say that's a good indication she's working on sci meth right? Good catch!

I think a DoW on Liz should come very soon. Basically we are only missing a second Gren on the silver and then we are ready to roll. I don't care so much what happens at Cuzco, but I do want to get rid of Nottingham as it ties up some of our units. And also get Lizzie to spend her loose units like the stack in Cuzco.

Going Bombay-Washington-York may cause us to fight an uphill battle with all the culture to wade through. It is probably better to use Washingtons culture to our advantage by leaving it until after York/Cuzco.

I would suggest we gift the gren and a choku in kyoto for city defense, freeing up the attack and city attack units. Then tell kk to attack BB. While he's moving there, move the other choku's and the remaining cats towards Cuzco and gift to him nearest there right when we DOW Liz so that he has attack units in the right spot for Cuzco.

EDIT: I realized why I was so "effective" last turn - asoka, in his infinite AI wisdom :crazyeye:, sent 3 xbows and a cat from bombay to reinforce kyoto and they suicided on my grens which were in the way. The grens killed all 3 xbows and also killed or damaged at least one unit in kyoto. They were twice as efficient that turn as they could have been if I had just attacked with them (although it did cost us the units). So the power move was moving the S stack from BB to kyoto. Great thinking LC :goodjob:

I would suggest we gift the gren and a choku in kyoto for city defense, freeing up the attack and city attack units. Then tell kk to attack BB. While he's moving there, move the other choku's and the remaining cats towards Cuzco and gift to him nearest there right when we DOW Liz so that he has attack units in the right spot for Cuzco.


That is a great idea! But will he upgrade first or attack directly? And Liz moves first so she will probably attack him unless we stack a gren or two with those units.

That is a great idea! But will he upgrade first or attack directly? And Liz moves first so she will probably attack him unless we stack a gren or two with those units.Think she'll attack with her 0.4/6 lb? :rolleyes:

We could just gift one or two a turn earlier to see if he upgrades them on the spot. If he does, they're ready to clean up. BUt I liek the idea of selective gifting--just enough for the job at hand, and save the rest for future jobs-at-hand.

Think she'll attack with her 0.4/6 lb? :rolleyes:

We could just gift one or two a turn earlier to see if he upgrades them on the spot. If he does, they're ready to clean up. BUt I liek the idea of selective gifting--just enough for the job at hand, and save the rest for future jobs-at-hand.

Do we have enough units to redline Cuzco in one turn? I would prefer to use cannons for the job. :)

That is a great idea! But will he upgrade first or attack directly? And Liz moves first so she will probably attack him unless we stack a gren or two with those units.

That's a klarius question but I think to be safe we should gift the turn before we want to DOW. It would also be better to bring the medic choku along with them (don't necessarily need to gift that too though) to minimize the chances kk decides their first priority is to heal.

Alternatively we could also/instead gift the cannon currently NNW BB to remove the upgrade/healing issue altogether assuming we can assemble enough units to redline by then.

EDIT: BTW I didn't answer the question posted during my mid-turnset break, but I had told KK to attack kyoto early on. So when that works, it really works - the 2 grens from ancient greece came all the way across the map to go where I originally wanted them too. But then I was stuck, because if I had told him to go to BB once it became apparent he wasn't, I think the other units near kyoto would have gone there too, and then I couldn't have taken kyoto.

So the lesson is, we need to be selective in using the "why don't you to attack" request. Only use it if what he's currently doing isn't working. Otherwise we probably eliminate the ability to progress on 2 cities at once until he either forgets or the requested target is dead.

That's a klarius question but I think to be safe we should gift the turn before we want to DOW. It would also be better to bring the medic choku along with them (don't necessarily need to gift that too though) to minimize the chances kk decides their first priority is to heal.

Alternatively we could also/instead gift the cannon currently NNW BB to remove the upgrade/healing issue altogether assuming we can assemble enough units to redline by then.

EDIT: BTW I didn't answer the question posted during my mid-turnset break, but I had told KK to attack kyoto early on. So when that works, it really works - the 2 grens from ancient greece came all the way across the map to go where I originally wanted them too. But then I was stuck, because if I had told him to go to BB once it became apparent he wasn't, I think the other units near kyoto would have gone there too, and then I couldn't have taken kyoto.

So the lesson is, we need to be selective in using the "why don't you to attack" request. Only use it if what he's currently doing isn't working. Otherwise we probably eliminate the ability to progress on 2 cities at once until he either forgets or the requested target is dead.

I think the key is to tell him to attack one city but lure some pillagers adjacent to a second city. Like with Bombay/Cuzco now. Then I guess his assault armada can target a third, coastal, city. Like London.

Testing
I. Culture spread after capturing cities. This is hard to test because all sorts of things happen. But I'm pretty certain of one aspect.
1. If AI #1 loses his city, he keeps tiles where he has the most culture if he has another city that covers those tiles with its own culture.
2. Everything else seems hard to read. Some times a few tiles stay free for a turn, but not always. It also doesn't seem to matter if there are multiple AI's sharing the tile. Unless klarius can come up with an absolute certain reading of the mechanics, it doesn't look like we can count on anything here.

II. Time of resistance. I know klarius gave us a formula back in SG5, but rather than look it up, I tested.
pop18 -> 10 turns resistance
pop17 -> 9
pop16 -> 9
pop15 -> 8
pop14 -> 8
pop13 -> 7
pop12 -> 7
pop11 -> 6
pop10 -> 6
pop9 -> 6
pop8 -> 5
pop7 -> 5
pop6 -> 4

III. Gifting Units to KK. Inconsistent.
1. I gifted 2 chokos w/o war. KK made them grens immediately.
2. I gifted 2 more chokos and DoWed. The two previous grens went to pillage a village, but not the village next to the target city, though they could have. Teh two new chokos became grens.
3. I gifted a cannon and a cat. The cannon went to a home city, while the cat immediately went to attack the target city without upgrading.
Go figure.

So the lesson is, we need to be selective in using the "why don't you to attack" request. Only use it if what he's currently doing isn't working. Otherwise we probably eliminate the ability to progress on 2 cities at once until he either forgets or the requested target is dead.Imo, the lesson is, follow the code, because anything else is speculation. I can see a completely different reading than yours. klarius has repeatedly said that the AI is not strategic, but acts unit by unit. So for me, the first question is, once the gren pair has accepted the target city command, do they retain it or cna it switch on any given turn. I think klarius has said it can change any and every turn.

The second question is, suppose a gren pair has accepted Kyoto as the target city on T135. Then on T136, we ask KK to target Bombay. What happens to the gren pair? Suppose it goes through its list of things to do and comes to Target City again. Does it now assume the new target? Or does it remember its old target? In other words, is it possible that two different KK units have two different cities targeted on the same turn?

I think the key is to tell him to attack one city but lure some pillagers adjacent to a second city. Like with Bombay/Cuzco now. Then I guess his assault armada can target a third, coastal, city. Like London.I agree. So I think we have two critical questions for after Bombay:

1. What sequence? If we're going to DoW Liz next, should we go Cuzco-York-London?
2. Should we CF Asoka or not?

Now that we have cannons and only we fight our wars, I think we should red-line immediately. No need to wait for KK, especially since klarius said that can draw KK's units. So red-line Bombay immediately and keep that gren between Bombay and Delhi to intercept back-ups.

Then send red-liners to Cuzco and/or Delhi. Then just red-line every city in sight.

I think the key is to tell him to attack one city but lure some pillagers adjacent to a second city. Like with Bombay/Cuzco now. Then I guess his assault armada can target a third, coastal, city. Like London.

That works if the units have pillage as a higher priority than attack city. But those grens didn't - they could have easily detoured to pillage S of BB but they didn't, they kept going.

Think about it this way - if I hadn't asked KK to go to kyoto early on, then it's possible that the english grens decide to go to BB at the same time the hamburg grens decided to go to kyoto. Then we would have BB by now too.

But since I set his target to kyoto, every unit targeting a city as it's priority goes there (until he forgets) even if another city is closer. We don't want to be stuck with that situation, hence the need for selective use of the "please attack" request.

That works if the units have pillage as a higher priority than attack city. But those grens didn't - they could have easily detoured to pillage S of BB but they didn't, they kept going.

Think about it this way - if I hadn't asked KK to go to kyoto early on, then it's possible that the english grens decide to go to BB at the same time the hamburg grens decided to go to kyoto. Then we would have BB by now too.

But since I set his target to kyoto, every unit targeting a city as it's priority goes there (until he forgets) even if another city is closer. We don't want to be stuck with that situation, hence the need for selective use of the "please attack" request.

Yes, we need to be clever here. I don't know if you did this already, but as soon as there is one unit next to the current target city it is time to switch to a new one. That way we gain one- two turns for the units that are enroute to the first city where they will not be needed.

Yes, we need to be clever here. I don't know if you did this already, but as soon as there is one unit next to the current target city it is time to switch to a new one. That way we gain one- two turns for the units that are enroute to the first city where they will not be needed.

Yep. I would have done this but I couldn't be certain that I could redline it that turn enough for the 2 kk units that were adjacent to take it on the next - I lost the opening gren at 70% and my calcs showed that killing off all but 2 units with what I had wasn't likely that turn at all. So I had to wait for the main stack to move adjacent on the next turn. Bummer, but I sure didn't want that stack heading towards BB if the 2 adjacent units had suicided.

We don't want to be stuck with that situation, hence the need for selective use of the "please attack" request.We're not stuck in that situation as long as we target a geographically logical sequence of targets. Kyoto was out of sequence, geographically, but even that's not a problem, becaus those 2 grens are now within 2 moves of Bombay. So it's perfect. They just lost their assignment. Now we immediately give them a new one.If we just look at Gnejs' listing, (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6960610&postcount=3008) we can see that there are only two Target City possibilities:

ATTACK_CITY
...9. Load into settler ship or assault ship
...13. Target City

ATTACK (profile 2)
...5. Target City

Those 2 grens had empty galleons to load into, so if they did have the Target City assignment, they seem to be ATTACK profile 2 grens (at least one of them is). If so, they'll either attack a city, heal or target a city.

Conclusion: We want to give them their next assignment immediately.

Imo, the lesson is, follow the code, because anything else is speculation. I can see a completely different reading than yours. klarius has repeatedly said that the AI is not strategic, but acts unit by unit. So for me, the first question is, once the gren pair has accepted the target city command, do they retain it or cna it switch on any given turn. I think klarius has said it can change any and every turn.

The second question is, suppose a gren pair has accepted Kyoto as the target city on T135. Then on T136, we ask KK to target Bombay. What happens to the gren pair? Suppose it goes through its list of things to do and comes to Target City again. Does it now assume the new target? Or does it remember its old target? In other words, is it possible that two different KK units have two different cities targeted on the same turn?

I agree. So I think we have two critical questions for after Bombay:

1. What sequence? If we're going to DoW Liz next, should we go Cuzco-York-London?
2. Should we CF Asoka or not?

Now that we have cannons and only we fight our wars, I think we should red-line immediately. No need to wait for KK, especially since klarius said that can draw KK's units. So red-line Bombay immediately and keep that gren between Bombay and Delhi to intercept back-ups.

Then send red-liners to Cuzco and/or Delhi. Then just red-line every city in sight.

Yes, redline immediately, and Cuzco-York-London. London should be the last Liz city since the frigates can have it's defense down to 0% by the time we get there.

I assume you mean to CF Asoka after BB falls? I think that depends on where kk's units are at the time. I would prefer not to, since we can use the turns it takes for kk to garrison Delhi to position ourselves on wash. We do not want NY units to be able to hide in the deer and furs forests the turn after we DOW.

What are we most likely going to do with the GA? This might have some effect on city order.

Yes, redline immediately, and Cuzco-York-London. London should be the last Liz city since the frigates can have it's defense down to 0% by the time we get there.

I assume you mean to CF Asoka after BB falls? I think that depends on where kk's units are at the time. I would prefer not to, since we can use the turns it takes for kk to garrison Delhi to position ourselves on wash. We do not want NY units to be able to hide in the deer and furs forests the turn after we DOW.

What are we most likely going to do with the GA? This might have some effect on city order.

It has been 13 turns since Cuzco was captured by Lizzie so it is likely that ther will be a border expansion and 20% culture defence soon. I can't really see that we will have enough units to redline it any time soon. There are 10 defenders including 4 longbows on a hill. Maybe we should just gift the whole Kyoto stack (minus a unit for Kyoto garrison) and let KK handle Cuzco more or less by himself. We could do as FiveAces suggested and gift the units first and dow the next turn when KK has upgraded them. I guess we can also "suicide" the cannon that is currently N-NW of Bombay and perhaps a Grenadier or two.

We shouldn't rule out the possibility that KK makes a massive landing at London. If we connect the road to Athens he might fill up those Galleons with some of the cannons that he is currently holding back.

I don't see why we should ever CF Asoka. Better to just keep pillaging and hoping that we can make a pillage trail to follow for one of KK's units as well.

A few things about game mechanics:
If a group gets a target city order, it in reality gets a move to a tile adjacent to the city order, not an attack order.

This order will be fulfilled unless it gets involved in a fight or it cannot find a path (maybe because there is peace in the meantime). Doesn't matter if the target city changes or the city is already captured or razed :eek:.

Once the group reached the target tile, there will be a new update and then is the decision to attack the city or pillage or attack a unit ....

There is a misunderstanding in Gnejs reading the code for attack units. There are no different profiles (that's just debug output). What he interpreted as profile 2 comes just after all the other stuff in priority.

Unit upgrades happen after unit moves, but cannot happen if the unit has used all it's moves. So the unit has to rest for other reasons first. One good reason would be if the unit is damaged by more than 30%.

I'm back home with proper Internet access, and I will start wading through the 40 pages I've missed :lol:. I've kept irregular track from my phone, so I may have missed stuff. Just in case I won't find an answer above, could anyone please comment on the war progress hamburg & kyoto regarding the expected turns we though it would take, and the actual outcome? I have a vague memory :beer: of being involved in a discussion regarding the delay we would experience by going Hamburg first, then Kyoto. And somewhere LC promised he would capture both Hamburg, Kyoto and Bombay in his turn set :deal:. Now, for some reason it didn't work out as expected :mischief: so my question is if we misjudged anything :confused: or what did go wrong?

Please don't interpret my question as criticism towards anyone (except Gnejs of course!)

A few things about game mechanics:
If a group gets a target city order, it in reality gets a move to a tile adjacent to the city order, not an attack order.

This order will be fulfilled unless it gets involved in a fight or it cannot find a path (maybe because there is peace in the meantime). Doesn't matter if the target city changes or the city is already captured or razed :eek:.

Once the group reached the target tile, there will be a new update and then is the decision to attack the city or pillage or attack a unit ....

There is a misunderstanding in Gnejs reading the code for attack units. There are no different profiles (that's just debug output). What he interpreted as profile 2 comes just after all the other stuff in priority.

Unit upgrades happen after unit moves, but cannot happen if the unit has used all it's moves. So the unit has to rest for other reasons first. One good reason would be if the unit is damaged by more than 30%.


Thanks for the klarification! :goodjob:

The bad news is that the two Grenadiers coming from Athens will continue to move towards Kyoto for the coming two turns.

The good news is that this is very helpful for understanding how to get KK to be more efficient. One idea is to set a new target city each turn. As you write, this doesn't affect those units that are already enroute. But it gives us great diversity in that new units may be sent to different cities rather than all to one single target. If we had only known, we could have worked on this the whole time... :eek:

I'm back home with proper Internet access, and I will start wading through the 40 pages I've missed :lol:. I've kept irregular track from my phone, so I may have missed stuff. Just in case I won't find an answer above, could anyone please comment on the war progress hamburg & kyoto regarding the expected turns we though it would take, and the actual outcome? I have a vague memory :beer: of being involved in a discussion regarding the delay we would experience by going Hamburg first, then Kyoto. And somewhere LC promised he would capture both Hamburg, Kyoto and Bombay in his turn set :deal:. Now, for some reason it didn't work out as expected :mischief: so my question is if we misjudged anything :confused: or what did go wrong?

Please don't interpret my question as criticism towards anyone (except Gnejs of course!)

Who are you? Erkon? Name doesn't ring a bell... Do we know you? :confused: :p


If LC had played ten turns instead of eight he would have captured Athens and Hamburg. Now he bailed out after only eight and will need to live with the shame of capturing just as few cities as our worthless captain... :lol:

I'm back home with proper Internet access, and I will start wading through the 40 pages I've missed :lol:. I've kept irregular track from my phone, so I may have missed stuff. Just in case I won't find an answer above, could anyone please comment on the war progress hamburg & kyoto regarding the expected turns we though it would take, and the actual outcome? I have a vague memory :beer: of being involved in a discussion regarding the delay we would experience by going Hamburg first, then Kyoto. And somewhere LC promised he would capture both Hamburg, Kyoto and Bombay in his turn set :deal:. Now, for some reason it didn't work out as expected :mischief: so my question is if we misjudged anything :confused: or what did go wrong?The big mistake was bribing Asoka on Fred. It turned out to be a power anti-move. Here are the negative ramifications I can think of:
1. Asoka threatening to capture Hamburg with a bunch of units screwed up my red-line plans, even though KK dutifully bee-lined it to Hamburg.
2. Asoka captured Hamburg before KK and then Asoka's cultural borders immediately swallowed up the land between Kyoto and Hamburg. This screwed up any plans for getting KK to quickly send a pillager to the rice tile and then capture Kyoto.
3. Asoka also pillaged a shickload of the roads before he captured Hamburg, including the main route north.
4. Asoka's unexpected cultural border expansion put our stack in Asoka's territory and Asoka had a small stack on the NW hill so even if I red-lined him after he captured Hamburg, he'd re-load before KK played, so I had to DoW Asoka and teleport the unitsover there.
5. This screwed up using Hamburg to upgrade the chokos before sending them to Kyoto, so the end result was that Kyoto took most of FiveAces turnset.
6. Bribing Asoka on Fred was also supposed to beat down Asoka's units but instead he went from a stagnant, builder's power graph to a steeply climbing power graph, mostly because he was able to build a musket every 2-3 turns in Bombay with his HE. :eek:

The teleporting of units did offer an alternative, though, that FiveAces and Gnejs didn't want to try. We could have DoWed Liz on my 9th turn (which was FiveAces 1st turn because I was fed up with the mess). Interestingly, that would have teleported our 3 grens at Madrid N to Hamburg SE, where they could have red-lined Hamburg. Then the NW Hamburg stack could have taken out Asoka's ministack (which FiveAces actually did) and then the stack could have gone on to red-line Cuzco, where KK already had a bunch of units nearby. SO there was a chance to get Hamburg, Athens and CUzco in about 3 turns. But this looked risky because Liz might have sent some galleons full of units to Murky, so we opted out.

The big mistake was bribing Asoka on Fred. It turned out to be a power anti-move. Here are the negative ramifications I can think of:...

Thank you very much! :goodjob: This was exactly the answer I was looking for i.e. a strategic mistake (by us as a team) and not a player mistake.

So who's going to get it first, jesusin or Erkon? First come, first served, I guess. :)

jesusin is up next. I skipped my turn set, so we're back to the rooster

The teleporting of units did offer an alternative, though, that FiveAces and Gnejs didn't want to try. We could have DoWed Liz on my 9th turn (which was FiveAces 1st turn because I was fed up with the mess). Interestingly, that would have teleported our 3 grens at Madrid N to Hamburg SE, where they could have red-lined Hamburg. Then the NW Hamburg stack could have taken out Asoka's ministack (which FiveAces actually did) and then the stack could have gone on to red-line Cuzco, where KK already had a bunch of units nearby. SO there was a chance to get Hamburg, Athens and CUzco in about 3 turns. But this looked risky because Liz might have sent some galleons full of units to Murky, so we opted out.

Well it was more that I thought our overall critical path would be shorter without working in Liz at the time than otherwise, but now I'm certainly not sure whether my partially supported decision was optimal or not and I'll definitely be tempted to play out your suggestion from the save after we finish. Had kk taken both BB and Kyoto (in addition to the gimme cities) my turnset I would have said not DOWing Liz was optimal for sure, but as it was he didn't and I additionally needed a bit of pure luck in his emptying of BB to end up with him as crippled as he is right now. But OTOH we are in really good shape to progress now through everybody like a hot knife though butter. So I dunno, maybe it's a wash.

I think the important thing though is that we all seem to be learning from each other and working as a team.

Bravo, FiveAces!!! Excellent work!

Question for you: Trying to figure out what Liz is researching now. She'll trade us Divine Rule + 10g for Chemistry, but won't trade us Nationalism for SciMeth. Six AIs have Nat and 7 have DivRule. In your last save, she thought we were becoming to advanced. Can you check saves in between to see what sort of trades she'll make?

Well, I think it's chemistry :eek: In t150 she will give us DR+20g (all she has to offer) for chem. In t151 she will only give us DR+10g even though she still has 20g to offer. No new civs have either DR or chem IBT so that's not a factor.

I haven't opened the save yet (I spilt calimocho on my PC last celebration party:mischief:), so please take my opinions with a grain of salt.Hey jesusin!!! Cleaned the calimocho off your computer and out of your corpuscles yet??? :)

Btw, what's calimocho?

Hey jesusin!!! Cleaned the calimocho off your computer and out of your corpuscles yet??? :)

Btw, what's calimocho?

Cleaned calimocho: fortunately I was able to lick up 90% of the spilt as it happened. Unfortunately I forgot to unplug the computer first. :rolleyes: Everything's alright now.

Cleaned corpuscles: uh, uh, it is going worse and worse, two straight nights drunk away now.

Calimocho: The poor mans drink; 60% wine, the worst and sourest one you can get, 40% coke.

jesusin is up next. I skipped my turn set, so we're back to the rooster

You can recover your lost turnset now, then I'll play and the roster will continue. In fact I would prefer it.

...You can recover your lost turnset now, then I'll play and the roster will continue. In fact I would prefer it.

Ok - got it!

I have absolutely no idea what to do apart from capturing Bombay, Delhi, Nottingham, York and London so please help me! Or perhaps I should read the previous 100 posts before asking for advice :lol:

I've updated post #3 a bit, and will fill in the details for each turn set. That will help me to regain the feeling of the game.

Could the team please indicate if you will be available on this forum the upcoming days? From whom can I expect response to my insane ideas? :lol:

Yup I'll be here. No vacation until August.

We will use mid-turnset uploads during intense turn sets. I have absolutely no idea what to do apart from capturing Bombay, Delhi, Nottingham, York and London so please help me! That'll do for the first half of your turnset, I suppose...

Yup I'll be here. No vacation until August.

Same here. I'll try to sober up... tomorrow.

Ok - got it!

I have absolutely no idea what to do apart from capturing Bombay, Delhi, Nottingham, York and London so please help me! Or perhaps I should read the previous 100 posts before asking for advice :lol:

I've updated post #3 a bit, and will fill in the details for each turn set. That will help me to regain the feeling of the game.

Could the team please indicate if you will be available on this forum the upcoming days? From whom can I expect response to my insane ideas? :lol:

I will continue my vacation another month. But I will not let that prevent me from ridiculing all your ideas, good and bad alike. :p

I've updated post #3 so please take a look and notify me of any errors. The current Hall of Fame for war progress is:

Erkon: -1 (Kyoto => Asoka)
LC: -1 (Cuzco => JC & Liza)
klarius: +1 (Antium => KK)
jesusin: +1 (Tiwanaku => KK)
Gnejs: +2 (Berlin & Madrid => KK)
FiveAces: +4 (Spara, Hamburg, Athens, Kyoto => KK)

I doubt I will pass FiveAces but I can at least improve my pathetic track record :eek:.

I'll open another beer and read whatever the peanut gallery has decided for me to do :lol:

Oh my, what a lot of stuff to read! Is it still valid? Let's do it this way: I present my ideas from looking at the save while catching up, ok?

These are my observations (and please remember these are not my permanent suggestions):

First of, we need a detailed Domination Dot Map. LC, are yours still valid, or do we need to redraw one? I was thinking of gifting our Artist once KK has captured Bombay. Perhaps he will culture bomb BB? Would that help our Dot Map?

I noticed we have hammers into the Globe. I don't plan to complete it. I will build cannons, cannons, cannons and perhaps a frigate or gren. The extra Frigate may be necessary in case our current Frigate is injured from attacking Liza's caravels. I would prefer just to block her sea tiles, but I fear that she will send her ships to block ours :cry:

Speaking of Liza, I prefer to DoW her on this turn, next turn, the turn after the next, or the turn after. That is, in 0-3 turns.

What would happen if I requested KK's whales? He has a WB nearby his second source, so may net it?

Regarding happiness, research, culture slider: we will most probably not get Biology within 20 turns. Is there any reason to put beakers into it right now? Perhaps better to get coins?

Regarding gifting and upgrading units: How about gifting the injured Choku, Cat and Gren next to Kyoto right away? Can I move them first? I want to keep and upgrade the two cats to cannons and send them to Delhi, since I want to send the newly produced cannons to Liza. Four cannons and four grens at Delhi is enough, which leaves me with about five units available to attack Liza, if I gift the other chokus to KK. This is a bit thin, but with one gren on the silver, and one inside Washington, then I can kill Lizas units from York in the open. With a few more units, I'm ready to declare.

How about selling tech to Cyrus and Mansa to fund upgrades?

What about pillaging Asoka land to speed up KK travel? Can anyone advice how the best path is created? A kingdom for a horse (move + pillage same turn).

How should I use "why don't you attack..."?

I am aware that several things above are a bit stupid, but I want to make sure I got it all right, since this is probably the most important turn set so far...

Dot map: My maps are still pretty much valid, although our situation may be slightly better the way KK is pouring culture into Sparta and the like. We don't know what we're going to do with the GA yet, but probably not Bombay. We may settle it in New York. klarius had some sort of idea about one of Liz's cities. Time will tell.

If you don't have a frigate at London N and London 2N, then Liz can unload her galleons to Nottingham, although I'm not sure she's programmed to think that way.

Ask KK for his whales and other stuff too. Then trade the stuff we don't need for gpt.

I wouldn't DoW LiZ until KK gets Bombay. I don't think you need so a huge stack for Delhi or York-London. I'd move practically everything down to Cuzco (including the 2 Nottingham cannons) and DoW Liz with all units 3 tiles away, if possible, so she might move some of her attackers out before you red-line it. But peek into York first and see what surprises are lurking there.

I would keep researching toward Bio. We may need it. In fact, if you want some cash for upgrades, then just do Globe in 1 turn. It pays itself back quickly in terms of upgraded units. BUt you'll need 74 hammers (e.g., 37 overflow + 37 base production). Globe also means we don't ahve to worry about DoWing multiple AIs and we can maybe trade more happies for gpt. I think it's about time for it.

Sell techs for gold. Trade resources for gpt.

Making a path to Delhi is almost impossible with all those towns. Better to hope that some KK units Target City it. Meanwhile, red-line the mofo (little by little). Delhi is not urgent until KK gets a unit adjacent.

Use "why don't you attack..." for Bombay, then maybe for Delhi or York-London. Try to observe whether units have gotten a Target City command by noticing whether they pillage or not. If they move through enemy territory without pilaging, then they have Target City, which means you can start asking KK to attack another city. Note: The 2 grens E of Cuzco appear to be headed to Kyoto (Target City). Then they may take a new assignment. Pay attention to where they go.

Lc's dot maps are pretty obsolete IMO :p. Berlin will reach the 500 culture threshold soon. Athens and Hamburg will reach 100.
Trying to culture bomb Bombay will probably not work. KK will move the GA to Kyoto probably as the city is bigger and as low in culture percentage.

To the research:
We should have our research slider high (and I still think biology is needed) and KK's should be low. We have a much higher multiplier on beakers than on gold.
I would take KK's, leaving him maybe 200. I think he should still be out of financial trouble in war then and has enough money to upgrade everything we will gift him.
BTW an interesting gift would be our warriors. They will upgrade to attack grens.

Sure you can (and should) move units before gifting. It's just a bit troublesome to find them again when the focus changes to a unit far away.

XTeam power graph is very interesting. Shoots up like a rocket, then drops like a rock. My guess is they built 1 cat/turn until they hit steel? and then gifted everything. The good news is that most of the teams are past t200 already.

XTeam power graph is very interesting. Shoots up like a rocket, then drops like a rock. My guess is they built 1 cat/turn until they hit steel? and then gifted everything. The good news is that most of the teams are past t200 already.
I would say that looks more like a final effort and they are finished. Their peak is long after steel time.

Made up my mind about our GA:
I would like to gift it to KK in York. That means neither London nor Washington need to come out of resistance.
Also fits nicely with the plans to raze Nottingham.

Edit:
And BTW, York is much more important than Cuzco. It has Versailles and Sistine.

Btw, Kublai has some serious stacks in Tiwanaku and Berlin. I wonder what he is planning to do with them?

First of all Kublai is not planning at all :lol:.
The cannons are probably mostly UNITAI_collateral.
That means they will not move unless there is an enemy unit coming in their 2 move range or somebody is entering KK's culture and they have more than 50% odds.

Maybe Liz will send some pillagers to get them mobile. :rolleyes:

Lc's dot maps are pretty obsolete IMO :p. Berlin will reach the 500 culture threshold soon. Athens and Hamburg will reach 100.Berlin, Hamburg and Athens together gain us tiles #5 and 8 on my northern (or central) dot map. Not enough to obsolete my maps. :scan:
Made up my mind about our GA:
I would like to gift it to KK in York. That means neither London nor Washington need to come out of resistance.
Also fits nicely with the plans to raze Nottingham.Now this is an idea. A good one. (I'd call it brilliant but you called my maps obsolete :p) Of course, it doesn't 'obsolete' my maps--it simply calls for different maps. And it gives us a lot of options, including razing Nottingham, New York AND Washington... :eek: But more important, it also calls for a serious strategy meeting about our sequence for targetting cities.

My two maps below show 19 tiles unaccounted for, if KK bombs York. We need to account for 10 of those 18.

Variant 1:
Rome coming out of resistance gets us 6 tiles. Bombay 100:culture: gets us 3 more. New York 10:culture: gest us 2 more.
Total required captures: 6 :eek::eek::eek:
With 100:culture:: Bombay.
With 500:culture:: York (GA gifted and bombed by KK).
With 10:culture:: Cuzco, Delhi, New York and Rome.

Raze: Nottingham, London and Washington.

Variant 2:
Rome coming out of resistance gets us 6 tiles. Bombay 100:culture: gets us 3 more. Capturing London gets us 1 more.
Total required captures: 6 :eek::eek::eek:
With 100:culture:: Bombay.
With 500:culture:: York (GA gifted and bombed by KK).
With 10:culture:: Cuzco, Delhi, and Rome.
With 0:culture:: London

Raze: Nottingham, New York and Washington.

Variant 3:
Rome coming out of resistance gets us 6 tiles. New York 10:culture: gets us 3 more. Capturing London gets us 1 more.
Total required captures: 7
With 500:culture:: York (GA gifted and bombed by KK).
With 10:culture:: Cuzco, Delhi, Rome, New York and Bombay.
With 0:culture:: London

Raze: Nottingham and Washington.

Notes:
1. I don't see KK having any GP or any city close to making one, so no golden ages with our gifted GA.
2. I think we should capture Bombay first for 2 reasons: to get the 100:culture: asap, and to lessen teh cultural pressure on Kyoto, so KK surely uses the GA in York.

Okay, now the bad news. If we raze those cities we end up with as many as 30 pop short on domination. After eliminating those AIs, we'll need 40% of the world pop, if no other AIs die in the meantime.

So saving London till last works very well, since we only lose a couple pop that way. The other cities we want to capture. We need Biology soon if it is going to help us much.

Probably we should build Globe asap and then bee-line Biology. That might give us some leeway in terms of razing an extra city or two.

2. I think we should capture Bombay first for 2 reasons: to get the 100:culture: asap, and to lessen teh cultural pressure on Kyoto, so KK surely uses the GA in York.
It has absolutely nothing to do with what you think is cultural pressure. :eek:
The weight is:
60 - team_culture_percent + 2*pop
that's all, no distance factor - it's just necessary that the GA can reach the city.
Kyoto is first in the data base and will get the preference if the value is the same. And Kyoto will still be at 0% (truncated as usual) for quite some time unless we kill Asoka.
OTOH we don't have to hurry with the bomb. York will also be at a low percentage because of Washington, so as long as it exists, KK will still bomb. We just don't get the immediate resistance end. But that's anyway no advantage as it just will starve York.

My sequence:
Bombay now. Don't do anything crazy like DoW Liz before it falls. Then look if there is really a chance to get Delhi soon. If so, go for Delhi and still don't DoW Liz, if not DoW Liz and CF Asoka. I think 2 wars are too much as well for our troops as for KK's (who still will let a big amount sit in cities for various reasons).

Strategy

EDIT: Updated alternative strategy proposed here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7002189&postcount=3329).

When Liz completes Chemistry, she'll have 3 frigates immediately. I think we should DoW Liz this turn (unless klarius can determine with total certainty that she won't finish it this turn). Take out her two caravels and then promote our frigates back to decent health. Build 1 more frigate this turn.

Target Bombay as KK's next capture, but also send lots of units to red-line York. Our stack at Kyoto SW goes to Hamburg to either gift or whatever. That helps protect Hamburg if Liz sends her Cuzco stack there.

After building a frigate, build whatever is necessary, but squeeze in two maces (or even lbs to gift to KK) asap so we can build Globe asap. Globe is just one turn and it can drastically speed up Biology which is looking more and more important to our Critical Path.

>>>crossposted with klarius<<<<

First of all Kublai is not planning at all :lol:.
The cannons are probably mostly UNITAI_collateral.
That means they will not move unless there is an enemy unit coming in their 2 move range or somebody is entering KK's culture and they have more than 50% odds.

Maybe Liz will send some pillagers to get them mobile. :rolleyes:

Well, how about a dow on JC then? JC's stack enter KK's culture 1 NE Beshbalik and the Cannons start rolling. Once that tile is cleared they are adjacent to JC's Iron garrison, so they attack and move there. Then they are ajdacent to Rome so those Cannons will attack it also.

Or is this just wishful thinking? :eek:

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you think is cultural pressure. :eek:
The weight is:
60 - team_culture_percent + 2*pop
that's all, no distance factor - it's just necessary that the GA can reach the city.
Kyoto is first in the data base and will get the preference if the value is the same. And Kyoto will still be at 0% (truncated as usual) for quite some time unless we kill Asoka.
OTOH we don't have to hurry with the bomb. York will also be at a low percentage because of Washington, so as long as it exists, KK will still bomb. We just don't get the immediate resistance end. But that's anyway no advantage as it just will starve York.
Which team_culture_percent and what pop? I don't see how you can truncate that equation to 0 for KK so obviously you didn't explain it fully.

But more important, Bombay is getting slaughtered with W's culture and has been for an eternity, so doesn't that mean we need to capture York before Bombay to get it ahead of Bombay in the data base?

W has also been putting a fair amount of culture into Cuzco ever since he bombed Washington.

We need to get this straight because we can't afford to screw up our GA. No more unpleasant surprises. :eek:

There is only one area currently counting and this is our whole continent. This area can have the several AREAAI attached namely:
AREAAI_OFFENSIVE,
AREAAI_DEFENSIVE,
AREAAI_MASSING,
AREAAI_ASSAULT,
AREAAI_NEUTRAL.
For 10 turns after KK declared a new war it's guaranteed to be offensive, which makes attack city units go to the target city, if there's not a reason to do something else (like waiting for another unit :(, or various other chores).
After 10 turns the unit numbers versus military weight will determine if it's offensive. Otherwise the area will get defensive, if there are several units endangering cities, or massing if not. In both cases no units will beeline the target city. They can still end up near an enemy city by pillaging or killing units in the open, but attack city and counter units need to get adjacent to a city to attack. Attack units can decide to go for a city from 4 moves away, reserve units from 3.We DoWed Asoka in 640ad. That means our war is about to be 10 turns old. Will the area remain offensive or do we need to declare a new war? Or is this entirely irrelevant for some reason?

Which team_culture_percent and what pop? I don't see how you can truncate that equation to 0 for KK so obviously you didn't explain it fully.

But more important, Bombay is getting slaughtered with W's culture and has been for an eternity, so doesn't that mean we need to capture York before Bombay to get it ahead of Bombay in the data base?

W has also been putting a fair amount of culture into Cuzco ever since he bombed Washington.

We need to get this straight because we can't afford to screw up our GA. No more unpleasant surprises. :eek:
Cultures in tile:
player culture percent = floor((player culture*100)/ total culture)
team culture is the sum of the player culture percents.

Asoka still has several thousand plot culture in the tile of Kyoto. KK has currently 1 so that's 0% player or team culture percent. To even reach 1% (truncation means here 0.9999% = 0%) he will need culture expansion first to get the +20 plot culture for expansion. After Asoka is dead his culture doesn't count anymore and Kyoto is 100% Mongol.
You don't have to calculate plot culture yourself. Just look into the city and look how many % Mongol it says. Currently that's 0% for Kyoto.

Pop is the population of the city which is currently even bigger for Kyoto, but it will soon start to starve :cry:. So the total weight can be easily calculated by just looking into the cities.

Both Bombay and York are distance 3 from Washington. They will have no tiles to work (they are completely enclosed in Washington's size 5 radius and the further away tiles are owned by Asoka or Liz. So both cities will starve as soon as they come out of resistance. Bombay will be smaller than York for some time.
But there is another thing we could do for these 2 cities to avoid the Kyoto problem even before Asoka is dead. That's get the GA into the city and cancel OB with Washington (probably immediately before we want to DoW anyway). The GA will then bomb in place as he finds no route (or if we are still at war with Asoka or Liz at least no save route).

II. Time of resistance. I know klarius gave us a formula back in SG5, but rather than look it up, I tested.
pop18 -> 10 turns resistance
pop17 -> 9
...

Nice testing, but that's for cities w/o culture, which means we have 50% team culture (1 for us and 1 for the enemy).
If our team culture is 0% (normal case for these old cities) it's:
3+pop/2 so e.g. 10 turns for pop 14.

which means we have 50% team culture (1 for us and 1 for the enemy).You lost me on that one. I tested this using your save, with us teamed with Hatty. So you're saying that gave inapplicable results?

We DoWed Asoka in 640ad. That means our war is about to be 10 turns old. Will the area remain offensive or do we need to declare a new war? Or is this entirely irrelevant for some reason?
It's again the question of units (attack, attack city and pillage) versus military weight.

Edit:
But our attack city grens, cannons and cats count now. So do our attack warriors. :)

Here is a diagram of possible pillaging for a direct route to Delhi. The bad news is, it requires a lot of pillaging. The good news, maybe we want to build farms anyway. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182145&stc=1&d=1215280735

The red line seems easiest considering where our units are, but it leaves no direct route to New York, if we care about that. THe red line also forces 4 moves onward to York, whereas the return path for the other three colors is only 3 turns onward to York. The blue numbers in blue boxes show how many pillages are needed for that tile.

The table at the bottom shows pillaging that must be done on or before the turn that KK's unit will move forward. At least one of the blue number must beleft unpillaged until KK's unit moves there.

My two maps below show 19 tiles unaccounted for, if KK bombs York. We need to account for 10 of those 18.

Variant 1:
Rome coming out of resistance gets us 6 tiles. Bombay 100:culture: gets us 3 more. New York 10:culture: gest us 2 more.
Total required captures: 6 :eek::eek::eek:
With 100:culture:: Bombay.
With 500:culture:: York (GA gifted and bombed by KK).
With 10:culture:: Cuzco, Delhi, New York and Rome.

Raze: Nottingham, London and Washington.

Variant 2:
Rome coming out of resistance gets us 6 tiles. Bombay 100:culture: gets us 3 more. Capturing London gets us 1 more.
Total required captures: 6 :eek::eek::eek:
With 100:culture:: Bombay.
With 500:culture:: York (GA gifted and bombed by KK).
With 10:culture:: Cuzco, Delhi, and Rome.
With 0:culture:: London

Raze: Nottingham, New York and Washington.

Variant 3:
Rome coming out of resistance gets us 6 tiles. New York 10:culture: gets us 3 more. Capturing London gets us 1 more.
Total required captures: 7
With 500:culture:: York (GA gifted and bombed by KK).
With 10:culture:: Cuzco, Delhi, Rome, New York and Bombay.
With 0:culture:: London

Raze: Nottingham and Washington.

Notes:
1. I don't see KK having any GP or any city close to making one, so no golden ages with our gifted GA.
2. I think we should capture Bombay first for 2 reasons: to get the 100:culture: asap, and to lessen teh cultural pressure on Kyoto, so KK surely uses the GA in York.

#16 and #18 are already covered by Beshbalik's culture. Rome covers #s 12,13,14,15,17 when anarchy ends. That is already 7 tiles so we need 3 more assuming you are right on 10 tiles needed (haven't double-checked...).


New York at 10 culture gives us 3 more tiles
Bombay at 100 culture gives us 3 more tiles
Delhi at 100 culture gives us 6 more tiles
Kyoto at 100 culture gives us 3 more tiles. This will take 7 turns of anarchy + an unknown number of turns, (34 if KK doesn't complete the theatre, 15-20 if he does)


So we have some alternatives...

EDIT:
So we can always raze Washington, London, and Nottingham. New York can be razed if any of the other three cities is going to reach 100 culture.

#16 and #18 are already covered by Beshbalik's culture.RIght, I was giving it one expansion to few. SO that means in 31 turns max, it will cover 2 more tiles, Rome and Rome S.

Alternative Stategy
Suppose we forget about Liz for now, letting her get the frigates. We focus on a strategy that will cost us the least amount of population after capturing cities. Bombay only has pop8 so will lose the least of the Bombay/Washington/York cluster if we capture it now. Then Delhi as soon as possible, but no panic.

Meanwhile, we build Globe asap so we can research Bio asap. Then we assemble a huge stack of cannons or whatever that will be able to capture York and then Washington (and New York) in quick succession. This will save the population of York to some extent, and Washington and New York.

Cuzco is not threatened by starvation, so that leaves Rome and London. London we actually want to capture dead last, because we want to win before it comes out of revolt, so we lose almost nothing to starvation. Also, we don't want to starve it now--let it gorw as much as possible. We will red-line it even if it has RedCoats.

This means that Rome comes earlier. In fact, Rome should come asap because that will make room for lots of growth of both Rome and Antium. So somehow, we need to send a contingent down to Rome pretty soon.

Here is a diagram of possible pillaging for a direct route to Delhi. The bad news is, it requires a lot of pillaging. The good news, maybe we want to build farms anyway. :)

The red line seems easiest considering where our units are, but it leaves no direct route to New York, if we care about that. THe red line also forces 4 moves onward to York, whereas the return path for the other three colors is only 3 turns onward to York. The blue numbers in blue boxes show how many pillages are needed for that tile.

The table at the bottom shows pillaging that must be done on or before the turn that KK's unit will move forward. At least one of the blue number must beleft unpillaged until KK's unit moves there.

Interesting. I guess we can pre-pillage some of those tiles and bring down the number of units that we need to have active as pillagers while KK is moving towards Delhi.

Another though I have is the following: in 2t from now, on T153, KK's two Grenadiers from London will be on a tile adjacent to Kyoto, probably on the forest tile 1SW. They will then have completed their mission and will be ready to accept new assignments. We can ask KK to target Delhi on that turn and they would then be adjacent to Delhi on T158, if they accept such a mission. Can we do anything to improve the likelihood of them doing so? One thing is making sure Kyoto has a city garrison, but I guess it already has one. If they are ATTACK_CITY units that should be enough, but if they are ATTACK units we probably need to pillage more tiles around Kyoto than what we have units. Is there something else?

FiveAces, where did the Musket 1N of Cuzco come from? If it is out to pillage then I guess chances are pretty good that it will target the town 1SW of Bombay, and could therefore be in place to capture Bombay already in two turns. But maybe it has been travelling in some other direction?

FiveAces, where did the Musket 1N of Cuzco come from? If it is out to pillage then I guess chances are pretty good that it will target the town 1SW of Bombay, and could therefore be in place to capture Bombay already in two turns. But maybe it has been travelling in some other direction?

From the hill SE hamburg. It moved through the mine NW hamburg but did not pillage. I don't know what it's doing - i think it's confused. But it is a pillager - it was one of the muskets that pillaged around kyoto and then backed away/ Maybe it just didn't get the mine since it's in hamburg's FC. Don't know if the AI is that smart though.

GA in york is great idea. I vote against DOWing Liz until Bombay falls. I like any dotmap plan that allows us to raze NY and/or Washington.

I think it will likely be very inefficient not to CF Asoka (and attempt Delhi) instead of moving on to Liz after Bombay, so I would almost just plan on that unless as klarius noted kk has units there and quick capture is definite.

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T151-161 v1.0

Build lots of Cannons and the Globe (in one turn). Declare on Liz. Red-line Asoka cities for KK, kill Liz units when possible. Red-line Cuzco if possible. Get KK to capture Bombay and Delhi, and hopefully Cuzco. Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city).

BUILD QUEUE
Cannon, Cannon, Cannon, Cannon, LBM, Mace, Globe, Cannon, Cannon, Cannon (upgrade Mace to Grens, gift LBM to KK in captured city).

UNIT MOVES
Hamburg region:
Move injured gren, choku and cat to Kyoto. Gift choku and cat. Move cat in asoka land to Kyoto and upgrade. Move rest to Hamburg, upgrade and against Cuzco.
Move two chokus 1SW of Kyoto to Hamburg and upgrade to grens.
Move rest of stack 1SW of Kyoto into Kyoto. Gift injured Cat and one Choku this turn. Promote gren and heal, upgrade cats and choku. Bring medic gren. Move these five units northwards (join with cat inside Asoka land) and either join KK units, or pillage cottages north of lake. Red-line Delhi on ~T159 or before KK arrives.

Bombay region:
Attack Bombay with cannon 1N and red-line with gren if defender survives (when KK unit is next to city). Pillage with grens inside Asoka land while moving towards Delhi. Move two more Cannons to Bombay and Delhi.
Don't move any other units into Asoka lands from west/north, except for one cannon in case BB builds a unit IBT.

Washington region:
Move cannons from Nottingham and capital to Washington (spy on York) and then towards 3 tiles from Cuzco. Let silver-gren stay, reinforce with LBM. Move all Cannons south (to York or Cuzco depending on enemy presence) together with one gren. Stay away from Cuzco for one extra turn to prevent Liz units to return to city, or intercept in open.

Ships:
Delhi Frigate continues to bombard Delhi.
London Frigates starves London after DoW (1N and 1SW of London). No kills on caravels, no pillage on nets, only bombard.

WORKER ACTIONS
Complete road SE of Athens, build road SE-SE on jungle hill. Then road between Hamburg and Kyoto. These workers can later (next TS) go to Delhi and repair the roads, or go home to workshop our cottage, or mine the pigs :D.

CITY MM
Work 38 base hammers (don't work Cottage 1SE). If necessary, starve to complete Globe in one turn.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
DoW Liz on T152-4, see below
Request Whales from KK to enable cannon to leave Murkopolis
Sell Liberalism to Cyrus, Mansa, Saladin and Louis for 300 gold in total (should I wait one turn?)
Steal gold from KK but ensure he has more than 200.
Suggest KK to attack Bombay T151, 152
Suggest KK to attack Delhi T153, 154, 155, 156
Suggest KK to attack London T157, 158, 159, 160
Trade resources to Far Away?
Possibly gift/trade/sell Lib and PP to Hatty to prevent chemistry trade to Liz.
Possibly trade SciMeth + Lib for nationalism from Sal to enable better judgement on tech progress.
Get copper and marble from KK
Copper to Louis for 3gpt
Marble to Hatty for 2gpt
T157: If Cyrus still has extra clams, gift our to KK, and re-negotiate our deals with Cyrus to get clams.

SEQUENCE
DoW Liz on ~T154 if no KK units within 2 tiles of Cuzco, else on T155 with same condition, else on T156. Adjust if KK units are en route to BB.

STOP CRITERIA
Saladin declares on anyone
Liz set sail from London
KK set sail around the world with his galleons (may require closed borders with Saladin to stop the madness)
Mid turn upload around T156
Stop early on T161
Liz learnes chemistry

OTHERS
Research - Biology at 60% until Globe, then at 100%
Civic change - none
Religion change - none
Cities settled - none by me
Save Artist for culture bombing York.
Monitor where Cuzco units move.
Pay attention to how many players have Divine Rule and CHemistry and see if Liz' offer changes.
Monitor KK unit movement
Monitor relations

I think Liz will get Chemistry in 2-4 turns, depending on her research slider. I figure her 100% research rate is 340bpt. I estimated she has less than 800 of her beakers left on it, although I could be way off in using klarius' trade chart, especially since it hasn't been calibrated for our PA and the current number of players. What's your estimate, klarius?

Erkon, what are you planning to do with Liz if she gets Chemistry before you DoW? And why no attack on her caravels? Those are her most dangerous unit for us once she gets Chemistry.

Edit:
1. When appropriate, I think our workers are most useful building roads under our stack just when it's capturing a city, so our and KK's units units can quickly move on.
2. It's possible that KK will arrive at Delhi before T159, especially if that kusket goes straight to Bombay and is successful.

I think maybe I need to impress upon you the importance of the population factor for our domination. Previously I thought pop wouldn't be a problem, but I was assuming we wouldn't lose much population after capture. That was a very incorrect assumption. This map is so crowded with massive culture AIs that each city is vulnerable to losing a lot of population if we can't free up the tiles quickly. We'll be lucky if Kyoto only loses 2 more pop. With Bombay we may lose most of the pop6 or pop7 it will have after capture. Etc. What this means is that we will not have enough pop to dominate by the time we have the tiles.

We need to takes serious measures.
1. Plan our captures so that we minimize pop losses. (60% effectiveness)
2. Get to Biology asap. (60% effectiveness)
3. Pillage the seafood of distant AIs. (40% effectiveness)

I think maybe I need to impress upon you the importance of the population factor for our domination. Previously I thought pop wouldn't be a problem, but I was assuming we wouldn't lose much population after capture. That was a very incorrect assumption. This map is so crowded with massive culture AIs that each city is vulnerable to losing a lot of population if we can't free up the tiles quickly. We'll be lucky if Kyoto only loses 2 more pop. With Bombay we may lose most of the pop6 or pop7 it will have after capture. Etc. What this means is that we will not have enough pop to dominate by the time we have the tiles.

We need to takes serious measures.
1. Plan our captures so that we minimize pop losses. (60% effectiveness)
2. Get to Biology asap. (60% effectiveness)
3. Pillage the seafood of distant AIs. (40% effectiveness)

Population threshold is not quite that simple :crazyeye:.
It's not fixed, but calculated as pop percentage of the 2nd biggest + 25. So growing or reducing the pop of the 2nd biggest is more efficient, reducing the pop of others is less efficient. And losing pop on our captured cities is even worse than with a fixed threshold :cry:.

Edit:
And, BTW, there is something else we can do. Don't raze Nottingham. That is a pretty good city for KK as he will get our clams and fish. Resistance will be pretty short, because of our culture in the city tile.
But don't be too hasty to get it to KK, as he will also get our sheep after expansion.

Edit2:
I thought about a scheme to get Nottingham w/o disturbing other plans:

Build a galleon and load our warriors.
Transport them into KK's culture and gift the warriors but not the galleon.
Get the galleon back to Murky. He should now upgrade them.
Unload the grens in Murky.

Couple comments on the PPP:

1) It looks pretty solid considering you've been doing whatever you do on your vacations for the past couple weeks ;)
2) I would prefer 2 units on the silver, at least until we have york contained. How bout using the lbm for that? we can gift him to kk in york for garrison later.
3) I would prefer not to DOW Liz until Bombay falls. Honestly I don't see much advantage in doing it earlier, especially if you are not attacking the caravels, at at worst it could distract KK.

Getting second thoughts about our GA. :crazyeye:
Maybe deliberately use it in Kyoto (gift it to KK) after Bombay falls.
That should allow to keep Kyoto's population and also gets us some tiles difficult to reach otherwise.

Edit: Double post.

I think Liz will get Chemistry in 2-4 turns, depending on her research slider. I figure her 100% research rate is 340bpt. I estimated she has less than 800 of her beakers left on it, although I could be way off in using klarius' trade chart, especially since it hasn't been calibrated for our PA and the current number of players. What's your estimate, klarius?

I don't see that she is having big progress on chemistry. She will still give divine right +10g for chemistry alone, which is about the same value now with Hatty having chemistry.

I don't see that she is having big progress on chemistry. She will still give divine right +10g for chemistry alone, which is about the same value now with Hatty having chemistry.

Oh shoot I missed that :blush: Since Hatty has chem, that explains the drop from DR+20g (all of her gold) to DR+10g. And why she offered DR+gold for sci meth a couple turns earlier.

So I revert to my original statement that she's researching sci meth - which means it's highly likely she goes to physics next for the free GS, especially if we wait until she has sci meth to DOW.

Oh shoot I missed that :blush: Since Hatty has chem, that explains the drop from DR+20g (all of her gold) to DR+10g. And why she offered DR+gold for sci meth a couple turns earlier.

So I revert to my original statement that she's researching sci meth - which means it's highly likely she goes to physics next for the free GS, especially if we wait until she has sci meth to DOW.
Well, there is still the possibility that she has researched constitution or military tradition in the meantime. She still values SM at DR+20, so cannot have a large progress (more than about a quarter) on SM.
Maybe buy nationalism from Sal for SM + lib (that is not a bad value at after PA prices) so we finally get a better hand at what the people are researching.

Well, there is still the possibility that she has researched constitution or military tradition in the meantime. She still values SM at DR+20, so cannot have a large progress (more than about a quarter) on SM.
Maybe buy nationalism from Sal for SM + lib (that is not a bad value at after PA prices) so we finally get a better hand at what the people are researching.

Yeah that's not a bad idea.

My experience is that Liz doesn't much prioritize MilTrad. Constitution is definitely a possibility.

Population threshold is not quite that simple :crazyeye:.
It's not fixed, but calculated as pop percentage of the 2nd biggest + 25.That's catastrophic news. Sal is really the only other AI whose pop is still growing and it's growing rapidly. Let's not trade him SciMeth. He doesn't have too many farms now, but if he happens to research Biology, he would be a walking disaster. (Yeah, I know it's unlikely, but still possible, right?)

Edit: On the other hand, it simplifies pillaging their seafood--we just need to focus on Sal and Cyrus, the two biggest AIs.

Gyathaar rigged this to surprise anyone going for domination, if you look at all the turf he gave Sal. Although Cyrus is pretty big too.

You lost me on that one. I tested this using your save, with us teamed with Hatty. So you're saying that gave inapplicable results?
Doesn't matter which save, but is a general thing.
A city that doesn't have culture still has 1 plot culture in the city plot. Capturing the city will also give 1 plot culture.
Looks like you tested it with a new built city, so the culture component is 50% own (I said team, because our plot culture would also count, as in the case of Nottingham) plot culture.
A longer existing city with more than 100 culture in the city plot (all cities we are concerned currently), will lead to 0% own culture. That means:
The full 3+floor(pop*0.5) turns resistance.
For the other case it's 3 + floor(0.5*floor(pop*0.5))
For Nottingham which is currently 42% Chinese it will be
3 + floor(0.58*floor(pop*0.5))

Edit2:
I thought about a scheme to get Nottingham w/o disturbing other plans:

Build a galleon and load our warriors.
Transport them into KK's culture and gift the warriors but not the galleon.
Get the galleon back to Murky. He should now upgrade them.
Unload the grens in Murky.
Have you tried this? I got them to upgrade, but couldn't unload them anywhere and they seemed pretty content to just ride around the world and enjoy the view. :mischief: But I didn't quite make it back to Murky because a caravel took me out (it was easier to declare war than ask for OBs...:lol:).

Edit: I was hoping to unload them elsewhere so KK could capture Paris or something.

EDIT2: Okay, I got a new galleon home and he could unload the units. BUt try as I might, I couldn't get any gifted, cannons, warriors, chokos, grens to attack a red-lined city from teh ship or to disembark nex to the enemy.

Have you checked the food bar in KK's cities? :)
Talk about insane Deity bonus! :d
It doesn't take much to be able to grow one pop per turn, just a granary and a couple of biology-boosted farms. And since there is so little food in the granary in even the biggest cities we can effectively reduce pop in other AIs cities.

Gyathaar rigged this to surprise anyone going for domination, if you look at all the turf he gave Sal. Although Cyrus is pretty big too.
Well, I think, it's more to help diplomatic by having a clear opponent. Big, but separated, with theocracy as favorite civic, so he will not have the same religion as the other civs over sea.

Have you tried this? I got them to upgrade, but couldn't unload them anywhere and they seemed pretty content to just ride around the world and enjoy the view. :mischief: But I didn't quite make it back to Murky because a caravel took me out (it was easier to declare war than ask for OBs...:lol:).

Edit: I was hoping to unload them elsewhere so KK could capture Paris or something.
I tested it, unloading in a city does work.
Edit:
My first idea was also to get units abroad by that :).
And in fact it's still possible, but not really feasible for a quick attack. You have to unload in a friendly city (e.g the target city before DoW :D).
Edit2:
To make such things possible, I recommend to build (I think 4 will do) cannons at 42h, then galleon, Globe.
We can sustain 42h for up to 10 turns, if we take KK's bananas.

Getting second thoughts about our GA. :crazyeye:
Maybe deliberately use it in Kyoto (gift it to KK) after Bombay falls.
That should allow to keep Kyoto's population and also gets us some tiles difficult to reach otherwise.I don't see Kyoto losing more than 2-3 pop depending on whether KK uses an artist to expand culture faster. I think not having to wait for London to come out of resistance might pack a bigger punch.

Erkon: More PPP thoughts.

One more detail you might not have picked up from the save. Cuzco has 8 units that were all in some sort of attack mode and captured CUzco. Only the additional two CGI lbs came after capture. So it's possible that when we DoW Liz, she'll send that entire stack somewhere. (Athens? Hamburg? Berlin?)

So I'm thinking a couple of things about our Kyoto S stack. Instead of gifting in Kyoto, it could move to Hamburg. From there you have two choices, let a unit or two hang around (not gifted) in case KK needs more help fending off Liz's attackers. The other choice would be to send the whole stack down to Beshbalik. If we consider that stack expendible enough to gift, then why not just use it on Rome? Rome is kind of the thorn in our Achille's heal. That stack could take care of the problem. The sooner the better for our pop growth in Antium, Rome, and Besh.

I generally don't like this gifting units to KK. The cat I gifted in Madrid became a defender. That was good. BUt do we really know if KK won't just leave a lot of them in some city to rot?

EDIT: A more immediate use for that stack could be to help with the pillaging of a path to Delhi and then onward to Rome.

I'll try to comment on the previous 20 posts or so:

Pillage of Asoka lands
As LC has shown, it takes ALOT of turns to pillage a good, simple route ala Gnejs'. What I'll do is to join KK with my stack and follow him and help him pillage. That way he won't get stuck for two or more turns. And hope that KK sends a CITY_ATTACK...

Timing of Liz Dow
I don't want to DoW Liz until our cannon stack is in Washington (i.e. earliest next turn). If she sends units towards the silver-gren, then we can retaliate with the cannon stack. If she sends units north from Cuzco, we can kill them in Washington lands. I'm not worried that Liz will attack Murky from York. I would actually prefer her to do that, so we can kill her units in the open. Absolute worst scenario (apart from chemistry) would be a) she keeps all her units in her cities, and b) she lands a large stack next to Murkopolis.

I hope I can avoid (a) by timing the Dow, and (b) is prevented by stationing healthy frigates next to London. That's why I don't want to attack her caravels since I don't want the two frigates to be injured. As long as they are 100% healthy, Liz will keep her ships in port. And she will not get chemistry if London is choked.

Overview of the Wars
We can't really plan which cities KK will capture, and even less when. That is why I want to open up a second front. Our units pouring south from Murky will prevent Liz to reach far beyond York. I will of course check if KK sends units towards Bombay close to Cuzco/York and delay the DoW in that case.

I would prefer to delay the war against Liz if (a) we knew she was not researching chemistry or (b) we knew KK would soon capture Bombay (withing four turns).

My interpretation of the events to far is that KK is very slow to react i.e. we have to initiate actions well in advance. If we DoW Liz next turn, KK will capture Cuzco in eight (or something). We still have JC and Washington left to kill, so I'm very afraid of delaying the war on Liz (which is on the critical line).

Population
We will get Biology in less than 20 turns. At that moment, KK will grow one pop/turn at least, probably two or three. Perhaps we can do something clever to prevent KKs newly captured cities to starve, but I don't want to delay any city captures for that reason i.e. quick capture of cities are of higher importance than reducing starvation. Starving Far Away cities such as Damascus is rather easy, and Susa/Persepolis too if Saladin drops to 3rd place.

Other stuff

Erkon, what are you planning to do with Liz if she gets Chemistry before you DoW? - I will stop :D

I will send our workers north from the Hamburg region when they're done there. I agree that they should repair the roads after city captures.

I will ask KK to target Delhi on T153, not Bombay.

I'm still a bit confused about the dot map. Is #16 and #18 the only errors? (already covered by Beshbalik's culture).

What to do with the GA - still open to discussion

Buy nationalism from Sal for SM + lib (so we finally get a better hand at what the people are researching) - still open to discussion

Spare Nottingham? I can do after red-lining to prevent her from pillaging our iron. I don't want to build the Galleon this turn set though, since the cannons are needed against York/Cuzco. - still open to discussion

I will put the LBM on the silver.

I prefer to gift the chokus in Kyoto to increase the chance of a quick capture of Delhi (who am I kidding? :lol:)

EDIT: LC, the units we gift may become DEFENDERS, but that will stop KK from building more DEFENDERS and build ATTACKERS instead? Kan klarius konfirm?

From the hill SE hamburg. It moved through the mine NW hamburg but did not pillage. I don't know what it's doing - i think it's confused. But it is a pillager - it was one of the muskets that pillaged around kyoto and then backed away/ Maybe it just didn't get the mine since it's in hamburg's FC. Don't know if the AI is that smart though.

Looks like it wanted to pillage, but Kyoto was captured before it was it's turn :). Now it's on the way to pillage near Bombay (tiles adjacent to cities have a much higher pillage value). There is a good chance it moves to Bombay IBT. It will do a new decision then, so only 1 hurt defender will make it attack.
No need to attack Bombay now. That may attract another defender from Delhi, coming then before it's the muskets turn to attack. Wait until the musket is adjacent. But have enough units, in case there is a new unit built.

Sparing Nottingham might lessen the chances of an amphibious assault on Murky - if it's redlined to 1 defender she will bring any assault galleon there first to provide defender(s), right? And only then continue to Murky?

I am strongly in favour of opening up a second front against Liz very soon, whether she is researching Chemistry or not. Then we should also declare on JC during Erkon's turnset. And as soon as York is captured we can raze Washington.
We shouldn't be afraid that KK becomes confused because as klarius points out there is no central strategy, only individual units. And we want to send those units to many targets which is why more than one front is good.
I am therefore strongly opposed to any CF with Asoka or anyone else.

I am strongly in favour of opening up a second front against Liz very soon, whether she is researching Chemistry or not. Then we should also declare on JC during Erkon's turnset. And as soon as York is captured we can raze Washington.
We shouldn't be afraid that KK becomes confused because as klarius points out there is no central strategy, only individual units. And we want to send those units to many targets which is why more than one front is good.
I am therefore strongly opposed to any CF with Asoka or anyone else.PA WARMONGERING WITH KUBLA KHAN 101

Rules Carved in Stone
1. Don't start DoWs unless you're ready to red-line cities. KK will just suicide all his attacking units.
2. Don't draw silly conclusions about KK's behavior right after you have decimated his units by violating #1.
3. Allow KK to build up his attack units by capturing cities that you have red-lined.
4. Red-line, red-line, red-line.
5. Make tactical decisions to gift a rare unit to free up KK's attackers. (Gift 1 unit to Kyoto.)

Discussion
1. Pre-PA we sped up our overall conquest using klarius' brilliant world war stratgies and tactics.
2. At PA our overall conquest slowed temporarily because KK had decimated his attack units and we didn't shift to a post-PA strategy as fast as we could have.
3. Since PA KK has gradually built up his attack force (except for the Athens decimation) and is sending out more and more attackers.
4. Gnejs' idea of multiple wars makes sense as long as we can red-line ahead of their arrival at various cities and thus prevent KK from wasting his attackers on idle suiciding.

Conclusions
1. We need to build up our red-line forces asap. At least 1 for each DoW, in advance of the DoW.
2. We need Globe before we start another war. (For WW, Biology, and to finance upgrades.)
3. We don't want to raze cities--just red-line them and keep them red-lined until KK arrives with a captor.
4. Send the Kyoto SW stack to Beshbalik if you want to DoW Rome any time soon. (Gift 1 unit to Kyoto.)

We shouldn't be afraid that KK becomes confused because as klarius points out there is no central strategy, only individual units. And we want to send those units to many targets which is why more than one front is good.
I am therefore strongly opposed to any CF with Asoka or anyone else.

You make a good point, but we also must be careful not to stretch him too thin. If he's only at war with one civ, his attacking/pillaging/target city units only go towards one place. If he's fighting 3 or 4 at once, we could have a situation where 2 perfectly good city attack units go off and suicide themselves on Rome before we can get down there to redline. But yeah as long as this doesn't happen I agree more than one front is good.

EDIT: xpost with LC

Athens proved that KK can capture cities on his own. He can probably do the same with London if we just bombard it down to 0 with our frigates.
And we also want our enemies to spend their loose units early.

EDIT: LC, the units we gift may become DEFENDERS, but that will stop KK from building more DEFENDERS and build ATTACKERS instead? Kan klarius konfirm?KK's putting 3 defenders in each city, judging from his cities: 2 lbs or a lb/pike pair plus a 3rd unit. All you have to offer is the 3rd unit. Fine. Gift one unit to Kyoto. In all likelihood, any other units you gift will move/pillage for 8 turns before getting to Delhi. Too late. Take a look at the map.

Erkon, just focus on red-lining cities and trust KK to follow your lead. Think of it this way:
1. Strategy layer: Which cities are you going to red-line and how soon can you do it?
2. Tactical layer: How can you make sure KK gets one attacker to the red-lined cities on time?

So we need to focus on red-lining cities and you and Gnejs want 2 or 3 fronts. Let's analyze that. Bombay is red-lined in 1 turn with at most 2 grens and a cannon. You currently have 2 grens defending Murky and 2 more grens and 3 cannons you could send to Delhi as a red-line task force. Now you need red-liners for Liz and JC, plus you need Globe asap. You need about 5-10 units for the Liz force, so if you build that in Murky, you won't have anything at Rome for about 20 turns. BUT, if you build Globe asap and send the Kyoto stack to Rome, then you can collect some cash for upgrades and by the end of your turnset you have Asoka totally red-lined, if not gone, and 2 deadly forces for Liz and JC, in position. jesusin mops up and klarius grumbles that we didn't leave anything for him but to hit <enter> and pillage Saladin's salad garden.

Sparing Nottingham might lessen the chances of an amphibious assault on Murky - if it's redlined to 1 defender she will bring any assault galleon there first to provide defender(s), right? And only then continue to Murky?
No. Assault is assault. When filled they will only ever unload in enemy territory.

KK's putting 3 defenders in each city, judging from his cities: 2 lbs or a lb/pike pair plus a 3rd unit. All you have to offer is the 3rd unit. Fine. Gift one unit to Kyoto. In all likelihood, any other units you gift will move/pillage for 8 turns before getting to Delhi. Too late. Take a look at the map.

Erkon, just focus on red-lining cities and trust KK to follow your lead. Think of it this way:
1. Strategy layer: Which cities are you going to red-line and how soon can you do it?
2. Tactical layer: How can you make sure KK gets one attacker to the red-lined cities on time?

So we need to focus on red-lining cities and you and Gnejs want 2 or 3 fronts. Let's analyze that. Bombay is red-lined in 1 turn with at most 2 grens and a cannon. You currently have 2 grens defending Murky and 2 more grens and 3 cannons you could send to Delhi as a red-line task force. Now you need red-liners for Liz and JC, plus you need Globe asap. You need about 5-10 units for the Liz force, so if you build that in Murky, you won't have anything at Rome for about 20 turns. BUT, if you build Globe asap and send the Kyoto stack to Rome, then you can collect some cash for upgrades and by the end of your turnset you have Asoka totally red-lined, if not gone, and 2 deadly forces for Liz and JC, in position. jesusin mops up and klarius grumbles that we didn't leave anything for him but to hit <enter> and pillage Saladin's salad garden.

I agree on the first part, but don't put me in bed with Gnejs! I dont plan to DoW JC this turn set...

Bombay and Delhi will be red-lined before KK shows up without the cannons outside in Murkylands. I will probably send the cannon close to Bombay as backup to Bombay.

I've got enough units to start red-lining (whatever that means) Cuzco. I don't need any stinkeen grens to defend Murky...

Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city). Make no mistake, I aint playing a girlie turn set and let jesusin have all the glory! :eek:

:lol::lol::lol:

Athens proved that KK can capture cities on his own. He can probably do the same with London if we just bombard it down to 0 with our frigates.
And we also want our enemies to spend their loose units early.
That was with his already filled large assault sea group. He doesn't have that currently. The galleons in Athens are for sure not full. And even if they were, Athens was defended by a handful of lbs and already under attack by Liz. London has more units including 2 CG1 muskets. We need cannons (to attack not necessarily for bombard) at London or this will be a big suicide site for KK (note his preference to build muskets :eek:, the moron). The same is true at Delhi and I fear we don't have enough units for both (don't forget that we want York and Cuzco also).

I've got enough units to start red-lining (whatever that means) Cuzco. I don't need any stinkeen grens to defend Murky...

Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city). Make no mistake, I aint playing a girlie turn set and let jesusin have all the glory! :eek:Now you're talking.

You should be able to see exactly where any attackers from Cuzco go. Beware! I got Fred to empty his city of attackers, but then I swooped and next turn he had them right back in there. My gut feeling is that if you and KK have no units within 2 tiles, Liz'll send them out, so you can easily red-line, but you'll also need to figure out how to block the attackers from returning, because the chances are KK won't be as quick as you.

Btw, glory is in the eye of the beholder. The future wise readers of this thread will know exactly how good your turnset was and exactly what you left for jesusin... ;)

Top priority is to red-line Bombay and Delhi before KK shows up. Second priority is to kill off units from Cuzco (either inside city or outside city). Make no mistake, I aint playing a girlie turn set and let jesusin have all the glory! :eek:

:lol::lol::lol:
Still, don't declare on Liz before you have sufficient troops next to Cuzco and (more important, IMO) York. I don't care about this girlie frigate stuff. Real troops next to cities is what it takes.

I don't care about this girlie frigate stuff. I also noticed that when Gnejs and Erkon talk about Liz they get frigid. :lol::p

My interpretation of the events to far is that KK is very slow to react i.e. we have to initiate actions well in advance. If we DoW Liz next turn, KK will capture Cuzco in eight (or something). We still have JC and Washington left to kill, so I'm very afraid of delaying the war on Liz (which is on the critical line).

KK is neither slow nor fast, he doesn't react at all.
But single units react and may suicide on York or Cuzco, if they are free to do so. If you have redlined the city it will be taken instead. Don't forget that both cities are accessible from roaded tiles in Washington's culture.


Spare Nottingham? I can do after red-lining to prevent her from pillaging our iron. I don't want to build the Galleon this turn set though, since the cannons are needed against York/Cuzco. - still open to discussion

I see no reason to waste turns to red-line Nottingham unless it shall be taken. It's anyway improbable that she sends a unit out, but if, just kill it. Even if you miss a unit and she pillages the iron, who cares? We can get another from KK if we need one.
Edit:
Why not build a galleon instead of the mace you have in your plan. One turn at 42h instead of 38h will make that work as well as the mace.


EDIT: LC, the units we gift may become DEFENDERS, but that will stop KK from building more DEFENDERS and build ATTACKERS instead? Kan klarius konfirm?

First of all no unit becomes defender. They may sit in cities for various reasons, but still are what they're built for. But it may really be so that KK has to few city defense currently and has to build a few more first. For sure he doesn't have enough attack (I mean real plain UNITAI_ATTACK) units currently, so that should be his next goal. He has a bunch of attack city, collateral, counter and city counter. The latter three contribute nothing to an offensive war on their own.

Another small thing:
Please get one of our workers home, before you DoW Liz. There are various reasons why we might need another workshop, instead of the steenkin' village. If we get Nottingham to KK we need it.
Also we might still lose our s-se workshop to Washington's culture. We are just holding it because we run such a high culture rate. Washington and New York pump a lot of culture into the tile.

That's an interesting idea with Grog and his pal. But how many turns would it take to ship them to Athens and back again as two mongolian grenadiers?
I get the feeling that this will take some 15 turns which to me is 13 turns too late.

That's an interesting idea with Grog and his pal. But how many turns would it take to ship them to Athens and back again as two mongolian grenadiers?
I get the feeling that this will take some 15 turns which to me is 13 turns too late.
Well, I thought more about Mongolian London. I still see no gain in wasting our unit turns on Nottingham before the other cities are captured. London-Murky takes 2 turns to return. So gift and let them upgrade on the turn London is captured (Tn) unload in Murky Tn+2, Nottingham captured by Tn+4.

klarius has mentioned the loss of sheep if we raze Nottingham. (Edit: Beside the point anyway.) Are there any good reasons to raze cities? If we red-line every city on our continent and have a red-lining sentry stationed at each until KK captures it, is there a problem?

No razing cities until we're sure we don't need the population.

Could the Peanut Gallery please condense the various comments into specific proposals to my PPP? I will also try to define the criteria for DoWing Liz (i.e. the number of units necessary in the York-Cuzco theatre, not the capture of Bombay - sorry FiveAces!)

The only reason for me to delay Liza-DoW more than two turns is evidence that she's not researching Chemistry. How do we know? How can I tell?

klarius has mentioned the loss of sheep if we raze Nottingham. Are there any good reasons to raze cities? If we red-line every city on our continent and have a red-lining sentry stationed at each until KK captures it, is there a problem?

No razing cities until we're sure we don't need the population.
We lose the sheep, if KK captures it and expands borders, not when we raze. But still we can do w/o if we have enough workshops or enough health (Athens corn gets accessible to KK, when York is done).
More of a problem is, BTW, if we let KK take New York and it gets out of resistance. That will cost us furs and a workshop tile, so we should look that this happens only when we don't need big production anymore.

Nottingham is a city that can grow like cancer with netted clams, netted fish and sheep after expansion (probably the crabs will get pillaged by KK, but we could still build a wb in the end if that's what needed).


The only reason for me to delay Liza-DoW more than two turns is evidence that she's not researching Chemistry. How do we know? How can I tell?
My latest error corrected spread sheet (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182208&d=1215363803)shows that she is offering exactly the full price for chemistry with DR+10. So she has no beakers in it.

Could the Peanut Gallery please condense the various comments into specific proposals to my PPP?

The only reason for me to delay Liza-DoW more than two turns is evidence that she's not researching Chemistry. How do we know? How can I tell?UNIT MOVES
Kyoto Region
* Gift 1 cat or choko to Kyoto
* Move the rest to Hamburg, upgrade as needed. This is your Cuzco stack, later our Rome stack.

Delhi and York Region
* Send northern units to red-line these two cities

DIPLOMACY
* Don't give Sal SciMeth. Who needs Nationalism? Curiousity killed the cat.
* Get copper and marble from KK
* Copper to Louis for 3gpt
* Marble to Hatty for 2gpt
* klarius said we could keep KK at about 200 gold reserves.

In 6 turns:
If Cyrus still has extra clams, gift our to KK, and re-negotiate our deals with CYrus to get clams.

Suggestions to attack...
* Your schedule is okay, but pay attention to KK's units so you can be flexible. If units are going across Asoka without pillaging, then you can already start suggesting Delhi.

Liz and Chemistry
* Pay attention to how many players have Divine Rule and CHemistry and see if her offer changes.

...Nottingham is a city that can grow like cancer with netted clams, netted fish and sheep after expansion (probably the crabs will get pillaged by KK, but we could still build a wb in the end if that's what needed).


My latest error corrected spread sheet (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182208&d=1215363803)shows that she is offering exactly the full price for chemistry with DR+10. So she has no beakers in it.

Do you then propose that I ignore Nottingham i.e. don't station any units next to it and not red-line it?

I could not extract that info from your chart since I don't understand it (mind you, I'm still in vacation mode). She won't put beakers into DR, will she? So we can use the DR+10 as indicator that she is not researching Chemistry? This is in direct conflict with LC's predictions, so I want to be very sure about this. If she is not researching Chemistry, I will wait a few more turns until I have a nice, shiny stack in Washington (or KK captures Bombay, whatever comes first, alright FiceAces?). Shiny stack = including the four cannons from Murky i.e. in five turns.

Hmm, LC has posted, so I will read that before submit... hmm... yep, makes sense. I'll incorporate into PPP.

I plan to play tomorrow night (in about 25 hours). Sorry for the delay, but I'm not fit to play right now :cheers: :lol:

This is in direct conflict with LC's predictions, so I want to be very sure about this.That was before klarius noticed that one more AI had researched Chemistry, making the deal worth 10g less. In other words, the deal had stayed the same in terms of whatLiz was researching. In other words, Liz is not researching Chemistry. :cool: SO my revised prediction is that she won't complete it during your turnset.

Read the thread in seuqence... ;)

I'm not fit to play right now :cheers: :lol:In that case, be very careful who you get into bed with tonight... :crazyeye:

Do you then propose that I ignore Nottingham i.e. don't station any units next to it and not red-line it?


Yes. If Liz comes out with a unit you can still kill it with our latest build or the build before, which will be both in range. Red-line only when we want to take it.
Razing will just tie up our units and delay the more important York and London. And once it's the last English cities there is no use to raze it anymore. Even if Liz should get chemistry then, it will be no problem to have KK capture it for some population.

That was before klarius noticed that one more AI had researched Chemistry, making the deal worth 10g less. In other words, the deal had stayed the same in terms of whatLiz was researching. In other words, Liz is not researching Chemistry. :cool: SO my revised prediction is that she won't complete it during your turnset.

Read the thread in seuqence... ;)

Well, the fact that Hattie has it also means that Liz may be able to trade for Chemistry soon. Perhaps even now? What kind of AI-AI deals involving chemistry are possible?

That was before klarius noticed that one more AI had researched Chemistry, making the deal worth 10g less. In other words, the deal had stayed the same in terms of whatLiz was researching. In other words, Liz is not researching Chemistry. :cool: SO my revised prediction is that she won't complete it during your turnset.

Read the thread in seuqence... ;)

Oh my god. Cheeky bastard! You know, I just wanted you to admit in public that you were wrong :crazyeye: Anyway, I just wanted to be sure about your opinion.

Gnejs, I will DoW Liz once I have a decent stack to kill off her units. I don't want to loose any injured units in a counterattack, ok?

Well, the fact that Hattie has it also means that Liz may be able to trade for Chemistry soon. Perhaps even now? What kind of AI-AI deals involving chemistry are possible?
Well, Hatty could trade it to Cyrus for whatever (as we don't trade for techs while they are cheap, we don't know what the people have). But that will still not mean that any of the two would trade it to Liz as they are not friendly and have 30 iTechTradeKnownPercent (KK and us is only 1 team, so it's only 2 of 10 counting against the threshold). Still it could be helpful to get PP and liberalism to Hatty, so Liz cannot trade in that, in case somebody else gets chemistry also.

Well, Hatty could trade it to Cyrus for whatever (as we don't trade for techs while they are cheap, we don't know what the people have). But that will still not mean that any of the two would trade it to Liz as they are not friendly and have 30 iTechTradeKnownPercent (KK and us is only 1 team, so it's only 2 of 10 counting against the threshold). Still it could be helpful to get PP and liberalism to Hatty, so Liz cannot trade in that, in case somebody else gets chemistry also.Cyrus and Hatty can trade RepParts for CHemistry, straight up. Not much we can do about it.

GIft that stuff to Hatty, if you want. Trade Sal SciMeth if you're confident he won't research BIology. I'm not stuck on it.

Erkon your plan for dealing w Bombay is fine - if kk doesn't have a unit adjacent in 5 turns you're probably better off asking him to go somewhere else anyway.

Good luck!

I like the 9.1 PPP.
Please, don't build any galleons. Nor any ships at all. When Nott is the last English city, KK will arrive faster by land than what we could do by sea. And anyway, after we have Biology we will probably find that we can simply raze Nott.

Please, don't build any galleons. Nor any ships at all. When Nott is the last English city, KK will arrive faster by land than what we could do by sea. And anyway, after we have Biology we will probably find that we can simply raze Nott.
When N. is the last English city we want to attack America, so KK will not arrive soon. But Ok, we can wait.

I'm pretty sure that we will not have enough population by the time we have all cities. Razing cities will delay victory. Even after biology KK will not have many cities growing fast.

PPP upgraded to 0.99, please review. Mainly details, but DoW against Liz is delayed two turns to ensure we have enough units in vicinity. Just remember that everything will change once I take a look into York :lol:

The only detail that is yet open is the movement of the Kyoto units.

a) Shall I move them to Delhi and send Murky units to York/Cuzco?
or
b) Shall I send them to Cuzco and send Murky units to York/Delhi?

Erkon v.99 looks good. On your question of the Kyoto units, I'd say the optimal answer strikes the best balance between timing of arriving at the target city and strength of the total uints there vs. the units defending the target city. Unfortunately I don't think you'll be able to know that until a few turns in, but my guess would be they should go to Cuzco since Liz has more melee units there no muskets.

And why mine the pigs? Is that an inside joke from an earlier SG, or are you serious? I would think that since we're concerned about pop we would want to ensure kk has max food in his cities, but maybe I'm missing something?

a) Shall I move them to Delhi and send Murky units to York/Cuzco?
or
b) Shall I send them to Cuzco and send Murky units to York/Delhi?
I see no use for sending units to Delhi directly. It's unlikely that KK sends anything to Delhi soon (he may pillage in the direction, but that will take a long time). So stay flexible and have the units on roads near Cuzco. Delhi isn't much farther then, once KK has Bombay.

Erkon
And why mine the pigs? Is that an inside joke from an earlier SG, or are you serious? I would think that since we're concerned about pop we would want to ensure kk has max food in his cities, but maybe I'm missing something?

Erkon is constantly getting on my nerves. ;)
I can't stand the sight of mined pigs:mad:. Putting innecesary preassure is counterproductive "the most important turnset..." :nono:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5814865&postcount=895

Raze Nottingham. ???

UNIT MOVES Kyoto region: ???

Stay away from Cuzco for one extra turn to prevent Liz units to return to city. If Liz's units leave on some diagonal, then it may be enough to just stick your stack in between or something, and not have to wait a turn. Depends on the situation.

or mine the pigs We have to decide about mining the pigs NOW, because it calls for an ENTIRELY different PPP. :lol:

Possibly gift/trade/sell Lib and SciMeth PP to Hatty to prevent chemistry trade to Liz.Another thought on monitoring. KK has his grens and any other attackers/pillagers spread out quite a bit. You'll have to pay close attention if you want to really track them. At least the following KK units moved last turn:
2 grens (1 damaged) in Kyoto
2 grens (1 damaged) SW of Kyoto
2 grens W-NW of Hamburg (this pair seems to be on a Target City mission to within 1 tile of Kyoto and then will be ready to take on some new assignment, perhaps Target Delhi, if we're lucky).
2 grens in Athens (plus 2 that could move)
1 gren in Berlin
1 musket N of Cuzco
1 musket in Hamburg
1 musket 3N of Karak
3 muskets in galleon W of Sparta
+ units completing almost every turnFrankly, I'm not personally in the habit of monitoring units so carefully, but in this game and especially this turnset (since it's the most important of the whole game ;)), I think it's critical. Closely tracking these guys may be the key to knowing when to suggest to KK a new city target, whether it makes sense to gift KK some unit, when to red-line, and in general teaching the boys how men warmonger. ;)

EDIT: Note on Bombay. Bombay needs only 17 base hammers for each musket. That could be 1 every two turns.
'

Erkon is constantly getting on my nerves. ;)
I can't stand the sight of mined pigs:mad:. Putting innecesary preassure is counterproductive "the most important turnset..." :nono:Either your wife has been putting you on a diet, or CIV is starting to give you a split personality: Don't you like ham? ;)

The first thing I though when I saw the screenshot was :yumyum: bacon! :yumyum:

The second thing I thought was "I hope DS doesn't take the pigs away for challengers".Hmmm. Too standard a way of playing, considering it comes from @LC. ;)

Aren't you willing to mine the poor pigs again? :rolleyes:

;)

Either your wife has been putting you on a diet, or CIV is starting to give you a split personality:

;)

No split personality, I am consistent. I think you misunderstood the last quote. It was intended as a compliment. For once you were abandoning the dark side, suggesting an old plain commonsense strategy. It was you who might have thought something like mining the pigs, not me!

To answer your question, no, she has not put me on a diet. She just makes me do more makingdoing on the summer. But that just makes me hungrier!

No diet, but I am on a regime of only Deity this days: SGOTM07, Major29, GOTM32...

Final update of the PPP to v1.0 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7002703&postcount=3333)

Final update of the PPP to v1.0 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7002703&postcount=3333)Looks like a winner! Good luck!

Be prepared for massive WW.

Both XTeam and Fifth Element may have finished, on T202 at the earliest. Misfits may well beat them and are on T179. Some other teams are still competing for top awards. We need to finish in the next 3-4 turnsets.

Turn set report.

T151

Moved eastern frigate and noticed Mace + LBM on iron hill. I don't dare to send cat south of Bombay to Kyoto, and will send to Hamburg instead. Send one more choku to Kyoto. Moves according to PPP.

Military summary
Iron hill: Mace, LBM
Bombay: LBM, Mace, FW
Delhi: Mace, Galleon, LBM, FW, Settler, Car, Car, Musk, LBM, LBM, Pike, Cat, GM
Nottingham: LBM, Cat, Pike
York: 2xMace, 3xLBM, Pike, 3xCat - A bit too many for my taste...
Cuzco: 4xLBM, WE, Cat, 2xPike, 2xCross

Diplomatic actions
KK: Begged 400 coins, copper and marble (cannot trade resources), whale.
Hatty: Sold PP for 40 gold + WM. Next turn I think I can buy Nationalism from Hatty for Lib and SciMeth?..
Cyrus & Mansa: sold Lib for 80 & 90 coins.

IBT

Two Asoka Caravels spotted. KK sends Frigates to intercept. The Musket-Galleon moves NW-NW-N-N. KK upgraded the choku and the cat in Kyoto. Then he moved his units around, and instead of listing them, I have attached a chart that should explain everything. One musket moved NW from Hamburg, the two Grenadiers en route to Kyoto moved north instead, and the Musket north of Cuzco is now next to Bombay :D

Asoka has built another mace in Bombay. Perfect, since I have two cannons and a gren. LBM on Iron hill NE from Kyoto has returned to Delhi.

T152

Cyrus has Replaceable Parts (not for trade). I traded Nationalism from Hatty for Lib and SciMeth. She is friendly with Cyrus so may trade him SM for RP eventually?... Fur @55%, WS @52%, Deer @58%. WW is ramping up so have to run 50% culture. That together with the speedy advancement of KK has put Globe earlier: building LBM now (to gift to KK in Bombay), mace next turn and Globe after that. Biology still at 19 turns. Resource trade with Copper and Marble not possible. Perhaps because we are already trading Cu and Marble to Cyrus??? Two Persian galleys show up on the east coast. WTF??? I pillaged an Asoka town for 40 coins :D KK has 492 coins. I tell KK to target Delhi. Domination pop limit is now 40%.

I lost one cannon against Bombay @75%. Very good. There is now a mace @2.7 with a KK musket next to the city. Please, please KK, do your job! Else you have to join me on the plank...

IBT

KK revolts to Vassalage and State Property (1 turn anarchy). KK kill Asoka eastern Caravel. KK wb move towards Whales. Perhaps we can sell our copy? Tiwanaka starts a cannon after the drydock... Roosevelt has Military Tradition. Hatty has Replaceable Parts, and Cyrus has Chemistry. I think they traded. Asoka has Constitution (and revolted this turn). Saladin has Military Tradition and Constitution. Asoka sends Musket and LBM towards Bombay.

Ohh, I almost forgot:KK did his job, and captured Bombay!!! Kashiwasadusadu gives 12 coins. CH, Forge, Aq still there. He starts a Cannon. That's the spirit!

T153

Switch to 42 base hammers to make sure I don't screw up the globe. Delhi starving to pop14. KK is really sending his musket-galleon around the world!!! I think I will let him do that. It will take 10 turns, but else he may do something stupid with his muskets later such as suicide against London? Quick poll: close borders with Sal or not? I know this was a stop criteria, but nothing can stop me now! Muahahahahhahaa! EDIT: apart from falling asleep...

Upgrade cat in Bombay, beg 300 coins from KK (he still has >300 coins left) and upgrade the two chokus and two cats in hamburg. I now have 10 units in the Cuzco area, but some are injured. Remind KK to attack Delhi (is that really needed with only one target city left?). Liz will pay 30 gold for Chemistry. I guess the price dropped due to Cyrus learning chemistry. Asoka built a musket this turn (which I killed together with the LBM).

IBT

KK killed Asoka Caravel in the west. He is moving his gren-pair towards Delhi.

T154

Continuation (posts up to 3427 belongs to above)

Borrowed gold from KK to check what Liz and Sal will request for DR. Both asked for Chem + 190 gold. -4 food and one unhappy in Murkopolis, will complete the Globe in one turn @50% research. Move units to prepare for Liz-attack and towards Delhi. Promote and upgrade Mace. Move LBM to gift in Bombay to free up a possible CITY_ATTACK. Will move frigates NE of London. Move eastern frigate away from Delhi to prevent starvation. KK is researching at 50% and has 304 gold (+29 gpt)

IBT

JC cancel Open Borders with us. KK sends the two Grenadiers towards Delhi (go go go!). A KK LBM has found it's way to Cuzco. I must admit I don't know where that came from. Getting sloppy. Mansa will trade Economics. Is anyone interested?

T155

Drink kung pao yak with KK and borrow his gold. Good news! Liz and Sal still requests 190 gold + Chemistry for DR. Cancel crabs for gold from Sal. Louis will pay 3 gpt for the crabs, but I wait for better bid. KK is researching at 60% (+18 gpt). We will get biology in 12 turns. Build more cannons. Sold Guilds to Louis for 50g. We are Cyrus' worst enemies.

Changed my mind and built a mace instead of cannons to get biology in 11 turns and get a few overflow hammers into queue just in case it is needed later. The mace will be CR2 promoted and then upgraded.

Military list - Liz
London: Musket, Gal, LBM, Wrk, Set, Gal, WE, Mace, Cat, Gal, We, Mace, Cat, Gal, Car, Car, Pike(1), Musk(3), LBM(2), Cat(2)
Nottingham: LBM, Cat, Pike
York: 2xMace, 3xLBM, Pike, 3xCat
Cuzco: 4xLBM, WE, Cat, 2xPike, 2xCross
Sea: 2xCar
Others: Cross 1W of York, Pike 1S of Cuzco, Mace in Madrid

IBT

St Petersburg has been captured by Hatty. Asoka built a musket and attacked (in vain) against one of my cannons. Revenge! Delhi has seven defenders, I have five units next to it and KK has two. With luck, KK will capture next turn (hold thumbs). KK is accumulating a big stack in Kyoto. KK has one musk NE-NE of Cuzco, else there is no units within 2 tiles of Cuzco. But first the Delhi battle...

T156

One good news, one bad news, and one very bad news. Good news is that both Liz and Sal is requesting 190 gold. Bad news is that my first cannon died against Delhi, which left three injured units, not two. KK will not capture next turn. Very bad news is that Washington has Chemistry.

Continuation (posts up to 3458 belongs to above)

Bought Hatty World Map for 10g. St Petersburg is pop10 (resistance 7). DoW Liz. Position units in a clever way. Send one gren to 1SE of Kyoto to defend the worker, since Liz mace teleported to the rice.

IBT

Liz sent five units from Cuzco towards Athens. Cuzco entered revolt for five turns, five garrison units injured :lol: Border collapsed exposing the pike. KK sent gren from Athens NE on to the corn. Perhaps this will attract units from York since it's three tiles away. Liz sent a caravel south to Athens, which is now starving. KK did not send the three frigates to kill it. KK killed one defender in Delhi but second unit pillaged the town. KK kill Liz mace S of Kyoto. It appears as if KK is filling up the galleons in Athens. Liz-musket moved to silver-hill. Mace and Cat left York but not visible.

T157

I will not target the stack E-E of Athens, but move into Athens with my two units. I don't want the stack to return to Cuzco. Kill one defender in Delhi and move units to block hammer-tiles. A cat (3.0) left. Hope he does not complete unit next turn... Killed one car west of London. Moved second frigate 1N of London. One turn of starvation is acceptable, ok LC? York bombarded. Silver-musket killed. Cuzco redlined (Pike at 2.4). Stupid placement of my cannon leads to one turn delay towards York. Sloppy. Hopefully Liz will send reinforcement to Cuzco that I can intercept. Gave back rice to KK to let him grow more. Will soon have rice from Kyoto. Hatty whales are pillaged, but Loius-the-bastard traded furs from Mansa instead.

EDIT: Told KK to attack Cuzco. KK musket Galleon returns! Liz wont give me 50g (she's pleased, not cautious).

IBT

Liz stack E-E of Athens returns to Cuzco (six units). Another 2 cats from London approaching. Iron-Pike moves NW of Cuzco. Delhi captured (lighthouse, harbor, forge intact, pop8, 6 resistance). York is now at six units. Kyoto is now stable at pop10.

T158

Work mine instead of cottage, biology still in 8 turns (nanah nanah nah nah LC!). Kill another car at London. Could not resist, although it's contrary to my PPP. The Liz caravel en route south indicates that KK will not kill it even if he has frigates available, probably because they are escorts. Beg 150g from KK i.e. my share of spoils of war. Cuzco redlined again (killed five of the six defenders without losses). Redlined York (without losses). So far I've lost two cannons during my turn set, and killed 28 units. I like cannons...

IBT

KK finally moves his stack in Kyoto! 5 gren and a cannon moving towards York (or is it Bombay?) Liz sends more units into York and Cuzco. Fool!

T159

I redline Cuzco and York again, and attack Liz two muskets that will reinforce York. I only kill one, but its now possible to KK to capture York next turn (one unit nearby, another one in Washington). I don't think he will though, but who knows? Remind KK to attack York.

EDIT: I'm sending injured units to Hamburg, and when they are healed they can continue towards JC and attack in about 10 turns.
EDIT2: I'm also moving units towards London. KK is moving his musket-galleon back (to London?)

IBT

Liz sends a musket and builds a mace in York. Sigh. Give it up b!tch! KK sends a musket to pillage Liz silver. Big stack moves to Washington. The musket galleon is SW of London.

T160

Redline York (one cat at 2.0 left). Move units towards London and kill a cat. Complete the farm S of Kyoto and claim it. 6 turns to Biology while working mine. KK is running 70% research. Deer is down to 57% and WS to 51%.

IBT

KK finally acts like a man! The galleons in Athens drops of it's load SE of London, together with the muskets from the sail-around-the-world galleon (total 11 units, with the last one still in one galleon). KK sends his stack from Washington and captures York (Versailles, Academy, Observatory, Sistine Chapel, Aqueduct, Courthouse). The cannon north of Berlin captures Cuzco (no buildings).

T161

No moves done. Hatty has rifling. Our units are distributed so that we can DoW JC in four turns, and attack Rome in seven turns. There is a choice of how many units we send south, and some have enough movement to go to Beshbalik, others need to go from the north. It is also possible to attack Washington instead with all units. Most of the units near York needs healing, although three units are close to London and can help KK if he can't capture the city himself. The eastern frigate is checking Hatty war progress, and can move to Rome and bombard.

Note that the gren in Delhi seams to be a CITY_ATTACK, as well as the gren in Bombay.

Log files are available in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7016107&postcount=3469).

Great news with the musket! Good luck with the rest of your turnset (and don't screw up :D)

I can see the arrows when I open it up. Good news that KK's cannons are on the move. Let's hope Bombay doesn't finish a musket IBT. But hopefullly those two grens are headed there next turn anyway. Maybe remind them to target Bombay, just in case. Moves them closer to Delhi anyway.

EDIT: You might want to push forward the lbm build too, so you can gift it in Bombay.

Maybe we should consider DoWing Sal and letting those muskets do some pillaging?

P.S: Congrats on BOmbay! Who are you going to send KK's grens on? Delhi?

EDIT: I don't care what you do with those muskets. KK may bring them back as soon as you DoW Liz. Is there any hurry on the OBs with Sal? Just keep playing and do what you think is best.

EDIT2: KK is really sending his musket-galleon around the world!!! I think I will let him do that. It will take 10 turns, but else he may do something stupid with his muskets later such as suicide against London? Quick poll: close borders with Sal or not?



That actually sounds great! You now have an exact eta for KK at Delhi and you can already now ask him to send his land units towards Liz. (Unless that galleon is otw to Kyoto...)

I can't ask KK to target an enemy city we're not in war with. Didn't we learn that like thousand of posts ago? Read the god dmn thread in sequence!!! :D

Looks like KK is going to have 2 muskets at Bombay faster than you can get the lbm there. He's really starting to think like a human. I agree with Gnejs, as soon as you can red-line York, take it home. (And I agree with klarius, York is much more important than Cuzco.)

I can't ask KK to target an enemy city we're not in war with. Didn't we learn that like thousand of posts ago? Read the god dmn thread in sequence!!! :DTo whom is this addressed and what city are you supposed to be targetting (other than Delhi)?

EDIT: Never mind, I finally figured it out. Gnejs DoWed Liz about 2 turnsets ago...in his own mind.

Erkon, make sure that Liz can't capture Bombay when you dow her.

Liz will pay 30 gold for Chemistry. I guess the price dropped due to Cyrus learning chemistry.Wait a minute, do you mean Div Rule + 30g? If so, that doesn't make sense. IF Chemistry is worth less, then she should offer less.

Maybe more guys know Div Rule?

EDIT: If you mean only 30g, then she's researching CHemistry and it's worth less to her than Divine Rule.

I can't ask KK to target an enemy city we're not in war with. Didn't we learn that like thousand of posts ago? Read the god dmn thread in sequence!!! :D

So you have screwed up. Big surprise. :lol:
Only way to redeem yourself and solve the situation is to dow Liz now. ;)

Wait a minute, do you mean Div Rule + 30g? If so, that doesn't make sense. IF Chemistry is worth less, then she should offer less.

Maybe more guys know Div Rule?

EDIT: If you mean only 30g, then she's researching CHemistry and it's worth less to her than Divine Rule.

She offers 30g period. I presume that the price of Chemistry dropped by more than 10 gold when Cyrus learned it.

I'm uploading now. Sorry I cant play more, but I'm too tired to think correct. KK will reach Delhi in a couple of turns...

She offers 30g period. I presume that the price of Chemistry dropped by more than 10 gold when Cyrus learned it.

I'm uploading now. Sorry I cant play more, but I'm too tired to think correct. KK will reach Delhi in a couple of turns...RIght, I guess it's also possible she's not researching it yet, but the value dropped a fraction.

Good thing you stopped before Gnejs talked you into DoWing Liz prematurely... :mischief:

To whom is this addressed and what city are you supposed to be targetting (other than Delhi)?

EDIT: Never mind, I finally figured it out. Gnejs DoWed Liz about 2 turnsets ago...in his own mind.

I read your post as if you suggested there was another option, Mr Wiseguy! :lol:

P.S: Congrats on BOmbay! Who are you going to send KK's grens on? Delhi?

I attached the save in the report (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7008242&postcount=3395). Take a look if you want. I plan to continue tomorrow night and DoW Liz in about two turns.

I read your post as if you suggested there was another option, Mr Wiseguy! :lol:Well, sooooorrrry if I'm just trying to be helpful. ;)

Not to get your expectations too high, but I think it's easily conceivable that you also capture Delhi, York and Cuzco. You've positioned things very well. :goodjob:

Some ideas you've probably already thought of:

Liz in about 2 turns looks about right. WIth that medic gren, you should be able to have a mega-stack of grens and cannons in Bombay about that time ready to red-line York (yes, I know that's already how you have planned it). If you send a couple more down to York N and the Bombay stack at York S, then London can't sneak any reinforcements past you.

Looking at Cuzco, KK is vulnerable in four directions really (Sparta, Hamburg, Athens, Bombay). Athens is still loaded with units but let's not forget that KK can still idiotically send out everything but two defenders at just the wrong time. Two of those units in Hamburg you could immediately station 3 tiles to the SW of Cuzco where they can double as insurance for Sparta and still arrive next to Cuzco in 1 turn. Same for Hamburg by putting the other units on the NW hill. Then some more units coming from the NE that double as protection for Bombay, just in case.

One more thing on CUzco: right now Liz has a worker on the Athens rice. If you put a unit there, it would be great to rip off a worker ( or more if you can find any). We can make better useof workersthan KK, imo. If Liz counter-attacks from York, no biggie--that will probably get one or two of KK's Athens grens off their fat asses.

My thinking on London: We DON'T want to starve it any more than necessary. Scrap Gnejs' plan, even though it was excellent. Rather position those two frigates to the north of London (e.g., N-NE), on the same tile to minimze food deprivation. If Liz sends those two loaded galleons N you get them, if S, KK will get them. THen, if we're lucky enough to kill both galleons, we can move the frigates completely out of Liz's water at London 2SW. From there you can bombard each turn but also starve London the least.

If you notice KK starving down any of the population in his cities, maybe we should give him back some health resources.

EDIT: Stop starving Delhi!!! Bombard and then move the frigate out of his borders as much as you can. Hopefully, KK won't pillage the fish, though he probably will.

NOTES:
1. I like your choice of roading.
2. Those Sal galleys are a total mystery to me too. Cyrus has never had OBs with Sal since we met them. My guess is that once upon a time they did and Sal closed them, stranding those two galleys. Then some cultural expansion just happened to one of Sal's NW cities and the galleys teleported over to us. Hillarious, isn't it?
3. I like your charts too, even though they probably take you a bunch of time. I have them layered so I can switch from one to the next and the arrows jump like a little video dramatization!

Sweet erkon, looking good! I can't really think of anything to add to LC's post, so just keep it up. Hopefully my internet will be back at home tonight and I can follow along. Looking forward to seeing you take delhi, york, and cuzco, but no pressure :D

She offers 30g period. I presume that the price of Chemistry dropped by more than 10 gold when Cyrus learned it.


Would someone please offer Lizz Divine Right for Chemistry and press the "what would make this deal work" option?
If she asks for 10-20g, then we know she hasn't started researching it and it's just the effect of someone else having Chem. If she asks for 200+g, then we know she has started researching it.

Nice excel maps, by the way!

Would someone please offer Lizz Divine Right for Chemistry and press the "what would make this deal work" option?
If she asks for 10-20g, then we know she hasn't started researching it and it's just the effect of someone else having Chem. If she asks for 200+g, then we know she has started researching it.


We don't have that much gold. But she isn't doing it for chem +110g, which she should according to my spread sheet (chem + 90g should be the asking price). OTOH, it's known that I had bugs in this sheet several times.

Maybe Erkon could take all KK's gold and ask. Then you can give him back a bit if he puts his gold rate to high.
Edit: That shouldn't be a problem, now that he is in state property.


Another question:
Should we declare on Sal once we have Globe. Sure that will lead to KK suicide his musket assault group, but the empty ships will pillage then. And we could bring in Louis then (make sure that he has guilds and astronomy), who also might send some ships. Idea here is that Sal sends his ships away before his troops upgrade to grens or even rifles.
Note: we have to watch our shores then as Louis is not easy to reach for Sal, so he will probably prefer Athens or Madrid.

Edited with new population percentages

Domination Count
If we capture all the remaining cities and lose only pop2 from each (unlikely) and we lose pop2 more from Kyoto and Bombay goes to 1 (likely), and assuming Sal and world don't grow any more pop (unlikely), then we have this picture:

Current world population: 440
World pop after captures: 420
Current domination rate: 40% = Sal @ 15% + 25%
Domination rate after captures: 41%
Needed to dominate: 420 * 41% = 173
Murky Team current: 102 (adjusted for Kyoto and BOmbay losing pop)
After captures: 168 <<<<<<< NOT ENOUGH!!! <<<<<<

Sal has 69 pop and is slowly growing.
Cyrus has 60 pop but isn't growing.

Need for domination of pop60: 420 * 39% = 164

I wouldn't declare war on Saladin until earliest some turns after he has gone to war against whoever it is he is plotting against. And even then it is doubtful since KK's land and nets may be pillaged too.

Another question:
Should we declare on Sal once we have Globe. Sure that will lead to KK suicide his musket assault group, but the empty ships will pillage then. And we could bring in Louis then (make sure that he has guilds and astronomy), who also might send some ships. Idea here is that Sal sends his ships away before his troops upgrade to grens or even rifles.
Note: we have to watch our shores then as Louis is not easy to reach for Sal, so he will probably prefer Athens or Madrid.Sal has had too much on his hands since between T125 and T134 (Which turn, please, Gnejs? That was your turnset... ;)). That 20+ turns. How long can that go on? Indefinitely?

We could wait one more turn to DoW Sal before KK's frigate is in perfect position to drop off the muskets and pillage Sal's clams. Maybe Sal will finally DoW someone. But would we even want Sal to DoW someone else first? What if he captures a city...

Sal's current tech research?
Sal offers these deals:
Divine Right + max90g = SciMeth
Divine Right + max90g = Chemistry + Liberalism
Divine Right not= Chemistry + 118g
EDIT: Divine Right not= Lib + 118g
He has MilTrad, Constitution, DivRight, and Economics.
He wants Lib, Chemistry, and SciMeth
He can research RepParts.

klarius, I happen to trust your charts. Can you read anything about what Sal is or is likely to be researching from those offers?

I wouldn't declare war on Saladin until earliest some turns after he has gone to war against whoever it is he is plotting against. And even then it is doubtful since KK's land and nets may be pillaged too.I don't see any seafood on KK's eastern side that Sal can pillage. Maybe fish after KK captures Delhi, but we could guard that with our frigate.

Another thing that makes a dow on Sal an anti-power move is that KK's armada might go to Sal instead of London.

Let's look at it this way:

Question 1. How soon will DoWing Sal start to starve his cities? This tells us how long we can delay.

Mecca: with 1 or 2 frigates and no land pillaging we cannot drop its pop but we can stop any growth.
Damascus: 1 frigate@ 4t travel + 9t starvation = -7pop after 13t
Baghdad + Medina: 2 frigates@ 9t travel +8t starvation = -6pop after 17t
Najran and Kufah are tough to starve.

Question 2. How soon could Sal have frigates to our west coast after we DoW him? This tells us how soon we can do it.

1 turn for us to DoW Sal + 1 turn for trading for Chemistry and upgrading caravels + 5 turns travel to London = 7 turns minimum.

Our London frigates need 2-3 turns before we DoW Liz + 5 turns to bombard London = 8 turns max before they can freely intercept Sal's frigates.

Conclusions:
1. If we our goal is to win in 30 turns, we would want to DoW Sal on T167 at the latest. (Of course, this ignores Sal's frigates attacking our frigates by then.)
2. We can safely DoW Sal any time soon.

Sal has had too much on his hands since between T125 and T134 (Which turn, please, Gnejs? That was your turnset... ;)). That 20+ turns. How long can that go on? Indefinitely?


I think it can. But check his OB's against the map - if there is a civ he would logically want to DOW but can't enter a military unit into their borders that might be it based on a much earlier post by klarius. That's probably what happened with Alex and us earlier. Izzy OTOH DOW'd us instantly (no hands first) meaning she got a dogpile roll which presumably doesn't have the boundary entrance restriction.

...Liz in about 2 turns looks about right. WIth that medic gren, you should be able to have a mega-stack of grens and cannons in Bombay about that time ready to red-line York (yes, I know that's already how you have planned it). No - I haven't thought about it really, but I'll probably do something like that.

My thinking on London: We DON'T want to starve it any more than necessary. ...

If you notice KK starving down any of the population in his cities, maybe we should give him back some health resources. Will do.

EDIT: Stop starving Delhi!!! Bombard and then move the frigate out of his borders as much as you can. Hopefully, KK won't pillage the fish, though he probably will.

My idea is to get Liz to evacuate her cities, so that I can kill them in the open in Washington land. I will probably move the silver-gren away to lure her against Murkypolis, and then kill her. Won't matter much if it's a hill. I also want the Cuzco units to move into KK culture. He has enough to kill them. I don't want to loose units, since I want to keep up the momentum, and have a nice shine double stack for jesusin (2x10 units). Don't know if that is possible though.

I will starve London if she's researching Chemistry, else not. I was starving Delhi to reduce the resistance, but will stop.

...Maybe Erkon could take all KK's gold and ask. Then you can give him back a bit if he puts his gold rate to high. Will do

Another question:
Should we declare on Sal once we have Globe...

I don't want to declare on Sal on my turn set. KK assault fleet is needed for London and perhaps Nottingham.

Another thing that makes a dow on Sal an anti-power move is that KK's armada might go to Sal instead of London.

Right, but that's only an issue if the fleet fills before Liz is dead/redlined. Otherwise the armada doesn't really help on our conitnent - it's not needed for Rome. In that case might as well have the ships drop off the units and then do some good pillaging.

Sal has had too much on his hands since between T125 and T134 (Which turn, please, Gnejs? That was your turnset... ;)). That 20+ turns. How long can that go on? Indefinitely?

We could wait one more turn to DoW Sal before KK's frigate is in perfect position to drop off the muskets and pillage Sal's clams. Maybe Sal will finally DoW someone. But would we even want Sal to DoW someone else first? What if he captures a city...

Sal's current tech research?
Sal offers these deals:
Divine Right + max90g = SciMeth
Divine Right + max90g = Chemistry + Liberalism
Divine Right not= Chemistry + 118g
He has MilTrad, Constitution, DivRight, and Economics.
He wants Lib, Chemistry, and SciMeth
He can research RepParts.

klarius, I happen to trust your charts. Can you read anything about what Sal is or is likely to be researching from those offers?

I'm guessing Chem. See if he will trade DR for Lib+all our gold.

I think it can. But check his OB's against the map - if there is a civ he would logically want to DOW but can't enter a military unit into their borders that might be it based on a much earlier post by klarius. That's probably what happened with Alex and us earlier. Izzy OTOH DOW'd us instantly (no hands first) meaning she got a dogpile roll which presumably doesn't have the boundary entrance restriction.Thanks. My T135 WW update showed Sa's WE as Mansa. Sal does not have OBs with Hatty or Cyrus, so that's likely to explain that. It would be great if Sal DoWed Mansa because both Hatty and Cyrus are Friendly with Mansa and shouldn't want to dogpile, I guess.

I'm guessing Chem. See if he will trade DR for Lib+all our gold.Nope. He won't.

@klarius: Sorry if you've already explained this, but how does our having frigates nearby London affect her moving assault galleons out and do the frigates also affect Liz moving her land units out?

We could put our two frigates at Nottingham W and S, thus 3 tiles from London, but still protecting against an amphibious assault. Would that help draw out her assault galleons by any chance?

Nope. He won't.

Ok. When Erkon borrows a buch of gold from kk he can try and see if it is enough. If it is then it means he's researching chem. If not it's still inconclusive. But then we can try to check Sal's trade value for chem against Liz's and that should tell us if one or both is researching it and approximately how far along they are compared to the other one.

@klarius: Sorry if you've already explained this, but how does our having frigates nearby London affect her moving assault galleons out and do the frigates also affect Liz moving her land units out?

We could put our two frigates at Nottingham W and S, thus 3 tiles from London, but still protecting against an amphibious assault. Would that help draw out her assault galleons by any chance?

He said they have no effect: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6989907&postcount=3266

Both Sal and Liz will trade DR for Chem + 190g

I could not find a suitable health resource to gift to KK. Only option is clam, which is worth 2 health for us and 1 for him.

Sal does not need OB with anyone to reach Mansa.

Both Sal and Liz will trade DR for Chem + 190g

I could not find a suitable health resource to gift to KK. Only option is clam, which is worth 2 health for us and 1 for him.

Sal does not need OB with anyone to reach Mansa.

Good info. That means that they both must have the same beakers invested in chem, which therefore must be zero. Sal is prob researching RP and Liz sci meth, but those are just guesses.

You can return kk's rice when the 10 turns expires if you want, but he should get another one soon anyway.

You mean Sal can get to Mansa only by galleon without OB? In that case my intuitive guess is once his armada fills, the ships will sail, but the DOW won't come until the turn they can unload. Or maybe they've sailed already and are going the long way around? I can't see the map obviously.

Both Sal and Liz will trade DR for Chem + 190gGood. That gives you a baseline for now.

Sal does not need OB with anyone to reach Mansa.But he still needs his units adjacent to his borders, right? Maybe he won't send out his galleons till he has frigates to protect them. We don't want to wait that long to DoW Sal.

Erkon, rather than making decisions now on whether to DoW Sal, might as well keep it open. If you look carefully at London's units, she has 8 units in four galleons (3 assault, 1 settler). Two of the assault galleons are full and could sail immediately, if they don't need frigate protection(?). In any case, London only has 2 cats and 2 muskets that LIz might send out over land. So if Liz sends out those two assault galleons and we take them out, then we're free to DoW Sal.

I do agree with Gnejs on the Athens assault galleon that has 3 grens already. Might as well not DoW Sal before DoW Liz, in any case, because if he sends that to London, we could get London really fast (or will you be toolate to red-line it?)

Domination Count
If we capture all the remaining cities and lose only pop2 from each (unlikely) and we lose pop2 more from Kyoto and Bombay goes to 1 (likely), and assuming Sal and world don't grow any more pop (unlikely), then we have this picture:

Current world population: 440
World pop after captures: 420
Current domination rate: 39%
Domination rate after captures: 40%
Needed to dominate: 420 * 40% = 168
Murky Team current: 102 (adjusted for Kyoto and BOmbay losing pop)
After captures: 168

Sal has 69 pop and is slowly growing.
Cyrus has 60 pop but isn't growing.

Need for domination of pop60: 420 * 38% = 160

I haven't understood the way the pop limit percentage is calculated... but I'll hazard a suggestion anyway: what if we don't ever capture nor raze Nott? It doesn't almost affect our land count. That way we would have 1 more AI alive. Would that help?

I haven't understood the way the pop limit percentage is calculated... but I'll hazard a suggestion anyway: what if we don't ever capture nor raze Nott? It doesn't almost affect our land count. That way we would have 1 more AI alive. Would that help?

I don't understand the mechanics either, but that certainly sounds like an excellent suggestion - it would seem to be beneficial if the difference between our pop not including Nottingham and the dom limit with Liz alive is less than the difference between our pop including Nottingham (allowing for growth in Nottingham) and the dom limit with Liz dead.

EDIT: Or another way of saying the above (I think) is if Nottingham's ultimate pop is less than the corresponding increase in the dom limit it's better not to kill Liz. Earlier LC post indicated dom limit 39% with Liz, Asoka, JC, and Wash alive, 40% with all dead = .25% each. .25%*420=1.05 but Nottingham will contribute at least 2 pop (need 800 total pop for just 2 pop to be worthwhile to ignore at .25%), so I'd say looks better to capture, but again I don't understand the exact mechanics.

I haven't understood the way the pop limit percentage is calculated... but I'll hazard a suggestion anyway: what if we don't ever capture nor raze Nott? It doesn't almost affect our land count. That way we would have 1 more AI alive. Would that help?klarius posted it (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7003470&postcount=3336) a few pages ago. It's incredibly simple:

2nd most populous player's percentage of world pop + 25%.

F8 screen shows Sal having 15% right now, + 25% = 40%. (Not sure why I had Sal at 14% in that post.) That's it. Crazy, huh?

So Liz's population will never determine that percentage. Nottingham can affect the percentage indirectly by affecting the overall world population. If we raze it, Sal's percentage may go up a point. If we capture it and it grows, Sal's percentage could go down a point.

I'm bringing this post forward because it had significant errors. (I seem to have added 24 instead of 25 to Sal's popluation percentage.)

Edited with new population percentages

Domination Count
If we capture all the remaining cities and lose only pop2 from each (unlikely) and we lose pop2 more from Kyoto and Bombay goes to 1 (likely), and assuming Sal and world don't grow any more pop (unlikely), then we have this picture:

Current world population: 440
World pop after captures: 420
Current domination rate: 40% = Sal @ 15% + 25%
Domination rate after captures: 41%
Needed to dominate: 420 * 41% = 173
Murky Team current: 102 (adjusted for Kyoto and BOmbay losing pop)
After captures: 168 <<<<<<< NOT ENOUGH!!! <<<<<<

Sal has 69 pop and is slowly growing.
Cyrus has 60 pop but isn't growing.

Need for domination of pop60: 420 * 39% = 164

Sounds like if we've got any spare time on our hands we just need to raze 1-2 of Saladin's cities then and we're home free.

klarius posted it (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7003470&postcount=3336) a few pages ago. It's incredibly simple:

2nd most populous player's percentage of world pop + 25%.

F8 screen shows Sal having 15% right now, + 25% = 40%. (Not sure why I had Sal at 14% in that post.) That's it. Crazy, huh?

So Liz's population will never determine that percentage. Nottingham can affect the percentage indirectly by affecting the overall world population. If we raze it, Sal's percentage may go up a point. If we capture it and it grows, Sal's percentage could go down a point.


So, against everybody's believe, the number of surviving AIs has nothing to do with the pop required? :crazyeye:

So, against everybody's believe, the number of surviving AIs has nothing to do with the pop required? :crazyeye:CIV is full of folklore. :lol:

So for domination we have jump points. Let's assume the world pop is around 420 at game end, and we have Saladin at around pop63.

63/420=15%
420*40%=168pop required for domination

If Sal loses a pop, we have:
62/419=14.8% = 14% after truncation
419*39%=164pop required for domination

If instead the world gains a pop, we have:
63/421=14.96% = 14%
421*39%=164pop required for domination.

So both Biology and starving Sal can get us below a jump point.

Sounds like if we've got any spare time on our hands we just need to raze 1-2 of Saladin's cities then and we're home free.Raze one of Sal's cities would definitely help, but then Cyrus becomes the 2nd most populous player and we're still not necessarily in the clear.

Raze one of Sal's cities would definitely help, but then Cyrus becomes the 2nd most populous player and we're still not necessarily in the clear.

:confused: Why not? Your post shows pop60 domcount (which I assume is if Cyrus is #2 since he's at pop 60 now and not growing) = 164 and we have 168 after captures. Am I not understanding something right?

:confused: Why not? Your post shows pop60 domcount (which I assume is if Cyrus is #2 since he's at pop 60 now and not growing) = 164 and we have 168 after captures. Am I not understanding something right?Yes, that's right, but us having 168 after capturing the remaining cities is a best-case scenario of only losing 2pop per capture. Listen, my calculations are just to give us an idea of what's in store. We'll probably lose more than 2 pop per capture, but if we get BIo pretty fast, we may gain a few back that way. The bottom line is, we're cutting it really tight, so we should look into all our options and probably cash in on several of them (Bio + not razing NOttingahm + starving Sal, for example).

Turn 156 reached, report updated, save attached. Delhi will soon fall. Washington has Chemistry. I planned to DoW Liz this turn, but should we attack Washington instead, before he builds too many grens? Or is that too late now? Will Liz get Chemistry before Washington is vanquished? Time for the Peanut Gallery to cast their votes :D

My thought without looking at save is no to Wash now.

1) We know we can go through Liz like hot knife through butter now, but maybe not after wash as you've pointed out
2) York is the most critical city, not NY or Wash
3) He has a ton of lbm and we/kk will prob lose a bunch of units before killing him, which may require us/kk to rebuild before we can manage Liz, esp if she has chem by then
4) His lbm's don't upgrade to grens so he won't have many turns to build any esp if we don't give him a reason to and let him build buildings if he wants to.

Agree 100% with FiveAces. Washington later. Capturing Washington after York makes bombing York possible because of the extreme cultural pressure and the GA being trapped in York (after closing OBs with W).

Thoughts on the save:

1. Delhi. I would make these moves to limit Delhi's hammers but still leave you with one gren at Delhi, just in case:8.6/12 gren from Delhi SW to Delhi S
gren from Delhi S to Delhi 2S
cannon from Delhi W to ivory
cannon from Delhi W to Delhi 2W
get the frigate the hell out of Dodge and hope Asoka works coastal instead of hammer tiles

2. Cyrus. He's Annoyed with us and will not trade health resources, so no clams. I forgot about this earlier. You have two choices: 1) Get clams from Sal (not too good if we're about to DoW him) or 2) Watch Louis--he's trading his clams to Cathy for whales, but Hatty has pillaged all her seafood except the two whales, so Louis' clams may be available in 2 turns or so. Might as well save some trade bait for Louis for that. Better than gpt.

3. Hatty. It's okay if she captures Moscow, because Moscow will be under heavy cultural pressure from Mansa (Djenne) and will starve. Get Hatty's maps when you can so we can know the pop of St. Pete (it's pop10 right now, I think).

4. Liz. Extort her 50g, before DoWing her waxy white buttocks. Should be delicious, you scheming, cheating Captain, you. ;) Make sure you send enough units to York for a full red-line.

5. Our Great Artist. Remember: We don't gift the GA in York until we're ready to close OBs with Washington, which is later on.

6. DoW Saladin. Please stop playing immediately if Liz loses her assault galleons to you or KK. We need to seriously consider DoWing Sal at that point.

7. Workers. Maybe they should build a couple farms? Such as the Kyoto rice farm (starting in 2 turns) and a farm S of the bananas to irrigate the Berlin rice.

8. Cash Flow. Maybe pillage a few more of those Asoka towns if you're feeling pinched for cash.

Forget Washington and dow Liz. I wouldn't worry about starting London since it will grow back quickly.
Btw Erkon, you didn't work the village, did you? :eek:
If you did it is time for LC to cough up :).

Ok, I will go on according to plan i.e. DoW Liz, not Washington. I think it is stupid to DoW Sal DoWing Sal is plain stupid as long as London is English property. You better convince jesusin if you think otherwise :D Otherwise, thanks for the advice LC! I appreciate it. I don't pay much attention to Far Away in my turn set, so I need extra pairs of eyes :lol:

Yes, I worked the village 1SE to get extra overflow hammers and to secure Biology in 11 turns. Don't forget to send the 20€ according to the agreement.

Btw Erkon, you didn't work the village, did you? :eek:
If you did it is time for LC to cough up :).Use it once or twice and you call that NEEDing it? Erkon puts 10 extra beakers into Biology and your definition of need is satisfied? Erkon thinks he's going to get Biology a turn sooner that way, but we all know that he'll have to switch back to the mine in 2 turns and Biology won't be a turn sooner after all, and you call that filling a need? :eek:

You remind me of my beloved Swedish grandfather, who would call my father every week, like clockwork, and talk to him for 2 minutes, listing all people who had died (he lived 94 years), mention how the call is becoming expensive and then say good-bye and hang up, like clockwork.

So when your wife tells you she needs you, you give her two quick turns and that's it? :D

I think it is stupid to DoW Sal as long as London is English property.I didn't request that you think. I requested that you stop thinking.

:lol:

Use it once or twice and you call that NEEDing it? Erkon puts 10 extra beakers into Biology and your definition of need is satisfied? Erkon thinks he's going to get Biology a turn sooner that way, but we all know that he'll have to switch back to the mine in 2 turns and Biology won't be a turn sooner after all, and you call that filling a need? :eek:

You remind me of my beloved Swedish grandfather, who would call my father every week, like clockwork, and talk to him for 2 minutes, listing all people who had died (he lived 94 years), mention how the call is becoming expensive and then say good-bye and hang up, like clockwork.

So when your wife tells you she needs you, you give her two quick turns and that's it? :D

:rotfl: You know Gnejs94 better than you think! Priceless :D

€100 that we get Biology in 5 turns on T161, right? And sparkling new from the Bank, no second hand filth...

Perhaps it's worth to build maces instead of cannons just to win the bid. Or is it more important to aim for the gold? Hmm... :hmm:

€100 that we get Biology in 5 turns on T161, right? And sparkling new from the Bank, no second hand filth...Hmm...I think I might be able to work this one out, Swedish style.

Hey jesusin! I wanted to congratulate your fabulous country on winning the Euro 2008, Roland Garros, and Wimbledon this year. Oh, and by the way, on your upcoming turnset, could you make sure you build nothing but cannons and put as many hammers into overflow as possible?

And of course, €50 for not finishing Biology until T167. Thanks.
:cool:

A few things about sea assault:
As far as we know the assault group in Athens consist of three galleons. They will not leave before all three are filled, which might never happen, as long there is always a war.

There is a big bonus for plots for assault sea ships if they can unload in one turn. That's the case for Athens->London.
Anyway the various weights for plots to land on are divided by the number of turns it takes to unload. It takes 4 turns to unload at Mecca. Mecca will not beat London as target.

Nottingham will never be the direct target. It has no adjacent enemy tile to land on.
If the group would move towards it, it would land on a tile with pillage value, like our (former) silver. After they landed the troops will be as good or bad as his other land troops meaning they will first pillage every tile left over by other troops.

Lizzy, please.


Hey jesusin! I wanted to congratulate your fabulous country on winning the Euro 2008, Roland Garros, and Wimbledon this year.

You are forgetting the Giro, the incoming Tour, the incoming basketball and the breathtaking Chiquilicuatre performance... I am sure there's something else...

Lizzy, please.



You are forgetting the Giro, the incoming Tour, the incoming basketball and the breathtaking Chiquilicuatre performance... I am sure there's something else...

Yeah, LC, how on earth could you forget the Chiquilicatre? Amateur... :rolleyes:
(Not that I have the faintest idea what that is...:))

...the breathtaking Chiquilicuatre performance...

Ahh, I knew I forgot something before attacking with the cannon: I should have danced the Chiki-chiki! Unforgivable... :cry:

Yeah, LC, how on earth could you forget the Chiquilicatre? Amateur... :rolleyes:
(Not that I have the faintest idea what that is...:))Come on, Gnejs, surely you witnessed the most incredible Eurovision of all? The one featuring the spitting image of jesusin (http://youtube.com/watch?v=74mBEXL9UgM&feature=related) and every other typical Spaniard?

A few things about sea assault:
As far as we know the assault group in Athens consist of three galleons. They will not leave before all three are filled, which might never happen, as long there is always a war.

There is a big bonus for plots for assault sea ships if they can unload in one turn. That's the case for Athens->London.
Anyway the various weights for plots to land on are divided by the number of turns it takes to unload. It takes 4 turns to unload at Mecca. Mecca will not beat London as target.Observations about Liz's assault galleons:
1. Murky has two tiles 1 turn away, Athens has none, so the assault galleons will go toward Murky.
2. For whatever reason, CIV seems to show grouped units together when they are listed on the sceen.
3. Liz has four galleons, but the two full assault galleons are separated from the 1/3-full assault galleon by the settler galleon on the listing.

Conclusion: The two full assault galleons are either grouped or separate but they are not grouped with the other assault, so they can leave immediately when we DoW Liz.

Observations about Liz's assault galleons:
1. Murky has two tiles 1 turn away, Athens has none, so the assault galleons will go toward Murky.
2. For whatever reason, CIV seems to show grouped units together when they are listed on the sceen.
3. Liz has four galleons, but the two full assault galleons are separated from the 1/3-full assault galleon by the settler galleon on the listing.

Conclusion: The two full assault galleons are either grouped or separate but they are not grouped with the other assault, so they can leave immediately when we DoW Liz.
Don't oversimplify :p. I just mentioned the facts for the otherwise similar assault of KK against London and Mecca.
There is a lot more entering. There is no tile adjacent to Murky that is in 1 turn range, so it's just the pillage value of the iron which is only about half of a tile adjacent to a city.
Then we have only 1 city on this continent, which makes us less important .

And I don't think you're right with your assumption about grouped units in the list. Cargo comes after the ship, doesn't matter if they are grouped to another ship.

I'm thinking that are 3 assault galleons (and one escort caravel) and one is not filled at all. And there is no way that they are not grouped together. They will group if they have nothing else to do and are either empty or full (not partially filled :crazyeye:).

But I love to oversimplify. Plus, it's a great way to get a correction from you. ;) So that means Athens already has two loaded galleons. Odd that the top one is still empty, whereas with London, it's the bottom one still empty. That's got to mean something... :lol:

Played a bit more. Delhi captured, Cuzco and York redlined. Report updated (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7008242&postcount=3395).

Played a bit more. Delhi captured, Cuzco and York redlined. Report updated (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7008242&postcount=3395).

Awesome! :)

Great timing on getting Cuzco to revolt Erkon. :lol: You gonna tell us how you planned that one? ;)

Played a bit more. Delhi captured, Cuzco and York redlined. Report updated (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7008242&postcount=3395).

:goodjob:
Keep it coming!

Great timing on getting Cuzco to revolt Erkon. :lol: You gonna tell us how you planned that one? ;)

Having my units >2 tiles away perchance? Of course it was pure luck :lol:

Great stuff, Erkon!!!

Big relief to get Delhi. That second KK gren pillaging was genius! Well done on RIPing Asoka. That Cuzco revolt is funny, but it won't be so funny if Bombay goes into revolt.

Can't believe you're still getting Bio in time. Talk about luck. :lol:

How soon can we redline London?

How soon can we redline London?

My units are injured, and Liz may send reinforcements to York. I would guess it will take ~10 turns from now. Unless KK sends his galleons there and handles it all by himself. If there was a way to get Liz to send away her armada....

So what's your next move, Erkon?

KILL'EM!! KILL'EM ALL!!!!
KILL'EM!! KILL'EM ALL!!!!
KILL'EM!! KILL'EM ALL!!!!
KILL'EM!! KILL'EM ALL!!!!
KILL'EM!! KILL'EM ALL!!!!

:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:banana::rockon:

The Captain humbly reports the results of this turn set:

Bombay captured
Delhi captured
York captured
Cuzco captured
KK landing 11 units SE of London
5 turns to Biology as of T161

Save uploaded. Final spoiler will come later. Now I'm going for a pizza and beer...

Session Turn Log from 820 AD to 1010 AD:

Turn 151, 820 AD: Saladin adopts Free Market!
Turn 151, 820 AD: Zhang Heng has been born in Moscow!

Turn 152, 840 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Asoka's Maceman (9.44)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 75.9%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Plot Defense: +3%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman has defeated SGOTM07's Cannon!
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Asoka's Longbowman (6.86)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 95.7%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Plot Defense: +3%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 25 (61/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 25 (36/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 25 (11/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Asoka's Longbowman!
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (10.92) vs Asoka's Maceman (4.27)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 152, 840 AD: (Plot Defense: +3%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (78/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman is hit for 29 (47/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman is hit for 29 (18/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (65/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka's Maceman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 152, 840 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Asoka's Maceman!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Washington adopts Serfdom!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Asoka adopts Representation!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Bombay has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Vassalage!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Kublai Khan adopts State Property!
Turn 152, 840 AD: Saladin's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 152, 840 AD: Catherine has completed The Spiral Minaret!

Turn 153, 860 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.20) vs Asoka's Musketman (9.00)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Asoka's Musketman!
Turn 153, 860 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Asoka's Longbowman (10.50)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Combat Odds: 75.1%
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 153, 860 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Asoka's Longbowman!

Turn 154, 880 AD: Bi Sheng has been born in New York!
Turn 154, 880 AD: William Shakespeare has been born in Mecca!

Turn 155, 900 AD: St. Petersburg has been captured by the Egyptian Empire!!!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Asoka's Musketman (9.90) vs SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 26.8%
Turn 155, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 900 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Asoka's Musketman!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Free Market!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Mencius has been born in Paris!

Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Asoka's Musketman (9.00)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman has defeated SGOTM07's Cannon!
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Asoka's Musketman (6.95)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 96.6%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 25 (64/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 25 (39/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 25 (14/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Musketman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Asoka's Musketman!
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (10.32) vs Asoka's Longbowman (4.53)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Asoka's Longbowman!
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Asoka's Longbowman (5.22)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (30/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (2/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Asoka's Longbowman!
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Asoka's Longbowman (5.22)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (30/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (2/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: Asoka's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 156, 920 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Asoka's Longbowman!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Elizabeth for Open Borders
Turn 156, 920 AD: You have declared war on Elizabeth!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Cyrus adopts Free Market!

Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 29 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (6.96) vs Asoka's Pikeman (4.25)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 92.3%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Asoka's Pikeman is hit for 27 (51/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Asoka's Pikeman is hit for 27 (24/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Asoka's Pikeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Asoka's Pikeman!
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate (8.00) vs Elizabeth's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate has defeated Elizabeth's Caravel!
Turn 157, 940 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of York to 20%!
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.20) vs Elizabeth's Musketman (9.90)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Musketman!
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (6.00)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 97.2%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 23 (27/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 23 (4/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (5.28)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 24 (16/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (3.72)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 26 (14/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.20) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (4.80)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 25 (15/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 157, 940 AD: Sinan has been born in Rome!
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult (5.00) vs SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 157, 940 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 940 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Catapult!
Turn 157, 940 AD: Delhi has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 157, 940 AD: The Indian Civilization has been destroyed!!!

Turn 158, 960 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of London to 90%!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate (7.04) vs Elizabeth's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 98.5%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 13 (75/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 13 (62/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 13 (49/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate has defeated Elizabeth's Caravel!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (9.96) vs Elizabeth's Crossbowman (6.90)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 85.8%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (68/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (53/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Crossbowman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (11.35) vs Elizabeth's Crossbowman (4.68)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (73/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 30 (56/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 30 (26/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (60/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Crossbowman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (15.60) vs Elizabeth's War Elephant (7.74)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 27 (61/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 27 (34/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 27 (7/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's War Elephant!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Elizabeth's Pikeman (6.96)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (59/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (32/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (5/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Pikeman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.20) vs Elizabeth's Pikeman (3.69)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 28 (13/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Pikeman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of York to 0%!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Maceman (9.20)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 77.3%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Maceman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (6.70)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 25 (61/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 25 (36/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 25 (11/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (11.16) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (4.53)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (80/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (67/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (6.69)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 98.2%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 24 (48/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 24 (24/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (12.00) vs Elizabeth's War Elephant (4.26)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 29 (35/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 29 (6/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's War Elephant is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's War Elephant!
Turn 158, 960 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hatshepsut, Elizabeth, Mansa Musa, Saladin, Catherine
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 336 gold available for trade
Turn 158, 960 AD: Saladin has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.39) vs Elizabeth's Crossbowman (8.10)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Combat Odds: 94.8%
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 15 (78/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: Elizabeth's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 158, 960 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Crossbowman!

Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (12.81) vs Elizabeth's Musketman (7.20)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 97.0%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (75/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (61/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 14 (47/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Musketman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Musketman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (9.12) vs Elizabeth's Pikeman (5.45)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (48/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (34/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (20/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Pikeman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of London to 80%!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of London to 70%!
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (11.04) vs Elizabeth's Pikeman (5.38)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (78/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (64/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (51/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (24/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Pikeman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Catapult (5.31)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 28 (57/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 28 (29/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 28 (1/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Catapult!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (10.94) vs Elizabeth's Musketman (9.00)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Combat Odds: 61.9%
Turn 159, 980 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (60/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (44/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (28/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (12/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 980 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman has defeated SGOTM07's Grenadier!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Your Grenadier has died trying to attack a Musketman!
Turn 159, 980 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Free Market!

Turn 160, 1000 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hatshepsut
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Musketman (8.87)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Combat Odds: 87.0%
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Plot Defense: +3%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 21 (56/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 21 (35/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 21 (14/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Musketman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Musketman!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Musketman!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Maceman (6.01)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Plot Defense: +3%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 27 (61/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 27 (34/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 27 (7/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Maceman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Maceman!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of London to 60%!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of London to 50%!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.20) vs Elizabeth's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 160, 1000 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 160, 1000 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Catapult!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of York to 0%!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth adopts Representation!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Elizabeth adopts Free Market!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Cuzco has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: York has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!

Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 588 gold available for trade

Excellent work Erkon! :goodjob: Superb play!

Exemplary play from our Captain!!! Very well done, Erkon! :goodjob: Things are looking up.

Btw, how did our frigate end up in St. Pete? Break a rudder? :lol: (j/k)

...Btw, how did our frigate end up in St. Pete? Break a rudder? :lol: (j/k)

It had nothing better to do than scout a bit, and since certain members of the Peanut Gallery indicated an interest in the war progress of Hatty I felt compelled to improve our intel :D

It had nothing better to do than scout a bit, and since certain members of the Peanut Gallery indicated an interest in the war progress of Hatty I felt compelled to improve our intel :DI was assuming it would go starve Sal next, but I guess it could bombard Rome instead.

Our frigate should pillage those St. Pete whales while they're still unowned.

Looks to me like our Great Artist will be needed in New York. Not exactly sure how much it will help, but otherwise New York is going to suffer serious starvation if it comes out of resistance before we finish. We won't need it in York, if KK doesn't get funky capturing London. If KK bombs New York or New York reaches 10:culture:, then we don't need Rome to come out of resistance.

Our population for domination is borderline right now. I estimate us having about 166 of a needed 168 at game's end, not including the effects of Biology and not considering that Sal is still growing. (His population grew pop4 in the last 10 turns, but he poprushed for pop3 in his Globe City, thankfully.)

jesusin + klarius should easily wrap this game up.

Btw, Saladin has Rifling! :eek:

Looks to me like our Great Artist will be needed in New York. Not exactly sure how much it will help, but otherwise New York is going to suffer serious starvation if it comes out of resistance before we finish. We won't need it in York, if KK doesn't get funky capturing London. If KK bombs New York or New York reaches 10:culture:, then we don't need Rome to come out of resistance.

NY :confused:. Why should NY come out of resistance before Washington falls. Otherwise it will have it's inner nine (including our furs) and I don't see serious starvation.

NY :confused:. Why should NY come out of resistance before Washington falls. Otherwise it will have it's inner nine (including our furs) and I don't see serious starvation.How come it gets its inner nine if we've put about a thousand culture points on those tiles? Its inner nine wil be completely comvered by our culture by then.

And does that mean KK would feel no pressure to bomb the GA if we gifted it in NY?

How come it gets its inner nine if we've put about a thousand culture points on those tiles? Its inner nine wil be completely comvered by our culture by then.

We cannot culture pressure kk since we have a PA with him. If team culture overlaps, unique BFC tiles get first priority, then it might be the inner nine (i.e. if a kk inner nine tile overlaps with one of our outer BFC tiles he will always get that tile regardless of how much more culture we have on it. I think that's why klarius says we will lose the furs), then I think overlapping outer BFC and non-BFC tiles ownership is determined normally by who has more culture on the tile.

And does that mean KK would feel no pressure to bomb the GA if we gifted it in NY?

I think for purposes of determining whether to bomb, our culture counts same as kk's (i.e. team culture) so if we have <60% on the NY tile than he should still feel pressure, but only until wash is dead. After that I think he will feel no pressure even if NY is 100% chinese. I will defer to klarius on this though since I am not 100% sure.

How come it gets its inner nine if we've put about a thousand culture points on those tiles? Its inner nine wil be completely comvered by our culture by then.

And does that mean KK would feel no pressure to bomb the GA if we gifted it in NY?
Because the decision who gets the tile between team mates, is not based on culture if it's in the city radius of both, but on distance to the city. There is a special metric applied just for this case which means after culture expansion NY will also have the tile 2W.
And he will not bomb, if America is away.

Aw c'mon klarius, you could have just said I was right except for the special metric part ;)

EDIT: I'm kidding of course. Your explanation was simpler and clearer.

Aw c'mon klarius, you could have just said I was right except for the special metric part ;)

EDIT: I'm kidding of course. Your explanation was simpler and clearer.
Well, I haven't even read your post before I answered LC :).
But yes, basically your post was right.

Edit: That's What's used.

4 3 4

4 2 1 2 4

3 1 0 1 3

4 2 1 2 4

4 3 4

Hey Erkon, for those of us who can't look at the save, could you add your last turn to your turnset report?

Because the decision who gets the tile between team mates, is not based on culture if it's in the city radius of both, but on distance to the city. There is a special metric applied just for this case which means after culture expansion NY will also have the tile 2W.
And he will not bomb, if America is away.Okay. Thanks. No biggie. Then I think our best bet is to settle our GA in Delhi! It will then have 100:culture: in 13 turns max (T174) and New York and Rome don't need to come out of resistance before geographical domination. London would need 10:culture:, but that should happen around that time too. EDIT: Okay, I forgot about Washington's borders expanding after London. Either Washington or NY also need 10:culture: or Rome has to come out of resistance.

My latest two dot maps are below and they assume KK captures all cities on our continent. Hopefully I haven't missed anything.

EDIT2: Updated to show the two tiles for Washington's 10:culture: border expansion.
.

Well there is a possibility that without a culture bomb york revolts if we are slow in taking washington. I do not think this is very likely, but it should be considered as the city will not produce any culture during those turns, and it will be more vulnerable to attack.

jesusin should ensure that his unit placement and DOW timing for the assault on wash's cities allow for the defense of york, bb, and to a lesser extent Murky against an initial response.

klarius - is there any chance if NY is captured before wash kk will decide to raze it?

Report updated (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7008242&postcount=3395). jesusin, back to you now :D

Autolog (could not fit into the other posts)
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Asoka(India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Free Market'

Turn 152/460 (840 AD) [07-Jul-2008 20:18:49]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Longbowman (1 turns)
Tech learned: Nationalism
While attacking in Indian territory at Bombay, Cannon loses to: Indian Maceman (2.72/8) (Prob Victory: 75.9%)
While attacking in Indian territory at Bombay, Cannon defeats (8.40/12): Indian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 95.7%)
While attacking in Indian territory at Bombay, Grenadier defeats (7.80/12): Indian Maceman (Prob Victory: 99.7%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Longbowman

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Hatshepsut(Egypt), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'
Civics Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Bureaucracy' to 'Vassalage'
Civics Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Decentralization' to 'State Property'

Turn 153/460 (860 AD) [07-Jul-2008 22:54:09]
Murkyopolis begins: Maceman (1 turns)
While attacking in the wild near Delhi, Grenadier defeats (10.08/12): Indian Musketman (Prob Victory: 89.4%)
While attacking in the wild at Bombay, Grenadier defeats (9.96/12): Indian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 75.1%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Maceman

IBT:
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 154/460 (880 AD) [08-Jul-2008 00:04:44]
Murkyopolis begins: Globe Theatre (2 turns)
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Murkyopolis finishes: Globe Theatre

IBT:
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 155/460 (900 AD) [08-Jul-2008 13:38:52]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Maceman (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Maceman

IBT:
While defending in Indian territory at Delhi, Cannon defeats (5.52/12): Indian Musketman (Prob Victory: 73.2%)
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Free Market'

Turn 156/460 (920 AD) [08-Jul-2008 15:07:27]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Cannon loses to: Indian Musketman (0.72/9) (Prob Victory: 78.3%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Cannon defeats (3.00/12): Indian Musketman (Prob Victory: 96.6%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Cannon defeats (6.96/12): Indian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Grenadier defeats (8.64/12): Indian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Grenadier defeats (6.96/12): Indian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
SGOTM07/Kublai Khan(China) declares war on Elizabeth(England)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

IBT:
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Free Market'

Turn 157/460 (940 AD) [09-Jul-2008 08:46:26]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Cannon defeats (5.28/12): Indian Pikeman (Prob Victory: 92.3%)
While attacking in English territory at London, Frigate defeats (7.04/8): English Caravel (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in American territory near New York, Grenadier defeats (9.96/12): English Musketman (Prob Victory: 78.3%)
While attacking in the wild at Cuzco, Cannon defeats (9.96/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 97.2%)
While attacking in American territory at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in American territory at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (8.64/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in the wild at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

IBT:
While defending in English territory at York, Grenadier defeats (9.12/12): English Catapult (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Indian Empire has been eliminated
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 158/460 (960 AD) [09-Jul-2008 10:46:08]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
While attacking in English territory at London, Frigate defeats (3.92/8): English Caravel (Prob Victory: 98.5%)
Frigate promoted: Combat I
Frigate promoted: Combat I
Cannon promoted: City Raider III
Grenadier promoted: Medic II
While attacking in the wild at Cuzco, Cannon defeats (6.36/12): English Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 85.8%)
Grenadier promoted: Combat I
While attacking in American territory at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (7.20/12): English Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Grenadier promoted: Combat III
While attacking in American territory at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (8.64/12): English War Elephant (Prob Victory: 99.2%)
While attacking in American territory at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (5.28/12): English Pikeman (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
Grenadier promoted: Combat III
While attacking in the wild at Cuzco, Grenadier defeats (10.32/12): English Pikeman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (5.88/12): English Maceman (Prob Victory: 77.3%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (6.60/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 96.0%)
While attacking in English territory at York, Grenadier defeats (8.04/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (10.08/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 98.2%)
While attacking in American territory at York, Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): English War Elephant (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
While attacking in English territory at York, Grenadier defeats (9.36/12): English Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 94.8%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

IBT:
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 159/460 (980 AD) [09-Jul-2008 16:29:10]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
While attacking in English territory at York, Grenadier defeats (5.64/12): English Musketman (Prob Victory: 97.0%)
While attacking in the wild at Cuzco, Cannon defeats (2.40/12): English Pikeman (Prob Victory: 92.7%)
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (7.68/12): English Pikeman (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (12.00/12): English Catapult (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
While attacking in English territory at York, Grenadier loses to: English Musketman (4.86/9) (Prob Victory: 61.9%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

IBT:
Civics Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) from 'Decentralization' to 'Free Market'

Turn 160/460 (1000 AD) [09-Jul-2008 17:11:32]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (7.68/12): English Musketman (Prob Victory: 87.0%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in American territory at York, Cannon defeats (10.32/12): English Maceman (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in English territory at York, Grenadier defeats (7.68/12): English Catapult (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Decentralization' to 'Free Market'

Turn 161/460 (1010 AD) [09-Jul-2008 17:49:40]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)

Please notice everyone that all specialists generate 2 cpt (from Sistine Chapel). jesusin needs to keep track of any specialists running in the critical cities.

Thanks Erkon! Will KK be able to capture London on his own?

Thanks Erkon! Will KK be able to capture London on his own?

Yes, he is able to do that, but who knows if he will manage? :dunno: I have three units en route to help him though.

klarius - is there any chance if NY is captured before wash kk will decide to raze it?
Not if he isn't in "financial trouble".

But BTW, revolts and/or flips are not that unlikely. Bombay has around 8% revolt probability, IIRC. York will be similar once Liz is gone.

Nice testing, but that's for cities w/o culture, which means we have 50% team culture (1 for us and 1 for the enemy).
If our team culture is 0% (normal case for these old cities) it's:
3+pop/2 so e.g. 10 turns for pop 14.Okay, let's take a cold, calculating view of how to arrive at the tile domination limit asap. (Help me out with any misunderstandings, please, klarius.)

London
I figure KK will capture London IT of T163/164 if jesusin sends those 4 units there. I assume London now has an empty granary, having lost pop1 in the last few turns. Since KK will have no mercy with his pillaging frigates, by T163, London should be at pop12 or pop13. Resistance = 3 + 6 = 9t. London comes out of resistance on T172 and then expands cultural borders in 2-5 turns depending on whether KK uses an artist (2t), an engineer (3t), or no specialist (5t). T177 at the latest, if KK doesn't dawdle capturing London.

Washington
pop12 after capture => resistance: 9t => time to expand borders: 11-14t from turn of capture.

New York
pop7 after capture => resistance: 6t => time to expand borders: 8-11t from turn of capture. (klarius: Would NY resistance be 1t shorter for pop7, since we have culture on that plot?)

Rome
pop11 after capture => resistance: 8t from turn of capture.

Conclusions:
1. Our date of tile domination will be probably be determined by Wash or NY at 10:culture: or Rome coming out of resistance.
2. Erkon says the Rome attack force can arrive at Rome in 7t, so it appears that KK could capture Rome on about T169 => tile domination on T177. (I gave jesusin 2 turns to red-line those 21 units... ;))

By comparison:
For T177, Washington has to be captured T166, best-case scenario, T163, worst-case scenario.

For T177, New York has to be captured T169, best-case scenario, or T166, worst-case scenario.

Washington
pop12 after capture => resistance: 9t => time to expand borders: 11-14t from turn of capture.

IIRC Washington has the hanging gardens and will pop borders in 2 turns after coming out of resistance.

EDIT: 1 turn if it's been there for at least 1000 years.

Edit: so prioritize NY and Rome. Or could we even raze NY and have Wash at 2x expansion by the time Rome is out of resistance?

I estimate the following turns (they can of course vary a lot depending on the success at London):
If the Hamburg stack goes south, I think it's reasonable to estimate the capture of Rome in about 10 turns, and Washington in perhaps 12 turns and NY in 15 turns. If we send parts of the Hamburg stack north, we will get Washington in about 10 turns, and NY in 12. Rome will then fall in ~12 turns.

IIRC Washington has the hanging gardens and will pop borders in 2 turns after coming out of resistance.

EDIT: 1 turn if it's been there for at least 1000 years.

Edit: so prioritize NY and Rome. Or could we even raze NY and have Wash at 2x expansion by the time Rome is out of resistance?

Captured wonders don't generate culture, do they?

IIRC Washington has the hanging gardens and will pop borders in 2 turns after coming out of resistance.

EDIT: 1 turn if it's been there for at least 1000 years.

Edit: so prioritize NY and Rome. Or could we even raze NY and have Wash at 2x expansion by the time Rome is out of resistance?Hanging Gardens will be great for the +1:health:, but I thought wonders don't contribute culture when you've captured them from someone else.

My post above refers only to land tile domination. We also need to cover the pop domination limit and I don't think we can afford to raze any cities. We need to grow KK's pop as much as possible and keep our fingers crossed. We need to get KK clams and farm and road his Athens corn for health too. Antium has a lot of potential after Biology.

>>>crossed with Erkon<<<

New York
pop7 after capture => resistance: 6t => time to expand borders: 8-11t from turn of capture. (klarius: Would NY resistance be 1t shorter for pop7, since we have culture on that plot?)

I don't have NY's exact american culture percentage here. But it's in the 60-70% range. That means, at size 6 (same at 7), 4-5 turns of resistance.
Formula (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7003986&postcount=3345)

We can still also think to use the GA to bomb Washington or Bombay.

Captured wonders don't generate culture, do they?

I thought I remembered that they did but since I don't do too much capturing in my solo games I am probably wrong. Sorry.

Easy way to tell for sure is open York and see if Lizzie's old wonders have :culture: by them.

I don't have NY's exact american culture percentage here. But it's in the 60-70% range. That means, at size 6 (same at 7), 4-5 turns of resistance.
Formula (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7003986&postcount=3345)

We can still also think to use the GA to bomb Washington or Bombay.Wow! Talk about splitting hairs! It's 66% right now, which gives 1.98 + 3 = 4t. 67% gives 5t resistance. :lol:

I estimate the following turns (they can of course vary a lot depending on the success at London):
If the Hamburg stack goes south, I think it's reasonable to estimate the capture of Rome in about 10 turns, and Washington in perhaps 12 turns and NY in 15 turns. If we send parts of the Hamburg stack north, we will get Washington in about 10 turns, and NY in 12. Rome will then fall in ~12 turns.How many units would you be sending to Rome in each scenario?

How many units would you be sending to Rome in each scenario?

Quick Rome:

Gren + Cannon (S-SW York), move to 2E of Antium on T165
Cannon (E of Cuzco) and Gren (E-NE of Cuzco), move to Hamburg, heal, enter Roman lands on T166
Cannon (NW of Hamburg), heal in place, enter Roman lands on T165 (cow S-SW of Madrid?)
3xCannons + 5xGren in Hamburg depart when healed. Enter Roman lands on T165 (from SW, W and NW).

Total units used: 6xCannons + 7xGrens

Slow Rome:
Cannon (NW of Hamburg), heal in place, enter Roman lands on T165 (cow S-SW of Madrid?)
3xCannons + 5xGren in Hamburg depart when healed. Enter Roman lands on T165 (from SW, W and NW).

Total units used: 4xCannons + 5xGrens

It's mandatory that no units are within 2 tiles of Rome to ensure he evacuates.

It's suitable to declare one turn in advance to see where his stack goes (i.e. DoW in T164). Our units will not be in place, but can counter his move, and thus save us a turn.

PS: is it suitable to CF Liz once London falls?

I got it!

PPP expected tomorrow night.
Playing expected Sunday morning, unless discussions advise otherwise.