I got it!

PPP expected tomorrow night.
Playing expected Sunday morning, unless discussions advise otherwise.Glad you're safely back from the Pamplona bull run. Thought you might have gotten stuck up in that bullsh... ;)

Quick Rome:

Total units used: 6xCannons + 7xGrensI can think of four reasons why I would prefer to send at least 13 units. 1) Rome has 21 units in it. 2) Murky is far away, so if we send to few, we're toast. 3) KK has three, weakly defended cities within 2 turns of Rome and Rome has a big enough SoD to easily take out any one of them. 4) KK has most of his units up north, so we'll definitely have to red-line Rome.

Furthermore, even if jesusin sends all 13 units down, I still don't see why he couldn't send those four units to London and have them back in time to attack Washington after about 6 turns, having 11-12 units in his stack and 3 defenders on the furs, marble and deer.

Other thoughts:
1. Gift JC Astro, so he builds an observatory instead of more units? Plus he can upgrade his galleys to galleons and maybe send off an extra unit or two.
2. Workers farm and road the Athens corn asap? Antium will soon need more health resources.
3. If Cyrus, Hatty, or Louis happen to DoW Mansa, shouldn't we bribe them out of it asap, at whatever cost?
4. After Biology is done, 0% research and produce cash for upgrades?
5. We still have those two warriors to upgrade if Washington brings trouble after DoW.

I think, we should now build a galleon to gift our warriors in London and get them back home. Having a pair of KK's grens in Murky and be able to decide when they go into action, can help a lot with either Nottingham or NY.

I would plan only for a minimal (gren + 2 cannons) stack for Rome.
Washington has to fall quickly and York and Bombay have to be defended. Even though W. currently doesn't have good attack troops he has lots of units. And they will attack as they cannot pillage anything.
A CF with Liz might be good before DoWing W just to get KK's pillaging troops out of English land.

There is still one other possible use for our GA. That's bomb Murky. Full culture bomb should get us the silver back, so KK doesn't have to pillage it. We might also get the cow, again one tile less to pillage. And maybe we get a revolt in Nottingham, if jesusin is as lucky as Erkon :).

Another possibility is taking New York (with KK's galleon grens) before Washington and let KK bomb that.

Random thought:

Would my teammates consider bad style to lose 1 KK city to JC or Wash?
The attack stacks of the AIs seem easier to kill in a 0% defense city without borders around it to delay both ours and KK's troups. Furthermore, KK would recover its original borders as soon as the city is retaken. It costs 1 pop, when the enemy takes the city, but I think it doesn't cost another one when KK retakes.

Erkon, do you remember the last HOF message you read about domination tiles and pop?
( "you land is about to reach the domination limit, xx out of yy tiles..." )

Erkon, do you remember the last HOF message you read about domination tiles and pop?
( "you land is about to reach the domination limit, xx out of yy tiles..." )

I didn't have it switched on!!! :cry:

Having a pair of KK's grens in Murky and be able to decide when they go into action, can help a lot with either Nottingham or NY.True. If we build the galleon this turn, those two grens could realistically capture a red-lined NY on T166.
I would plan only for a minimal (gren + 2 cannons) stack for Rome.Besh, Antium, and Madrid are poorly defended. How do you envision this minimal outfit being useful? I'd be concerned that JC would send his tried and true mega-SoD out to capture again, just like it captured Cuzco.
Washington has to fall quickly and York and Bombay have to be defended. Even though W. currently doesn't have good attack troops he has lots of units. And they will attack as they cannot pillage anything.Let me try this once more. :blush:

Final odds threshold = 2*30=60 (no units adjacent)

CII musket attacking CII gren(+25% city; 20% fortify): {10.8/(10.8+20.88)}+8% = 34+8=42%
42<60 No attack decision.

-or-

CRI gren vs. CII gren(+25% city; 20% fortify): {12/12+18}+8% = 40+8%=48%. No attack decision.

I don't see an attack decision if we have a single gren fortified in each city. The only possibility that I see is W sends a stack to pillage farther away and they happen to end up adjacent to Bombay (which our initial intrusion could block by moving our units to Bombay W and SW).

What did I oversimplify this time? :blush:
Another possibility is taking New York (with KK's galleon grens) before Washington and let KK bomb that.Btw, are you sure KK will bomb New York? Since the GA can move to Murky, that is, he's not totally trapped, does change KK's 'thinking' in any way? Or is his thinking that he still doesn't have a safe route to Bombay or wherever, so he'll bomb New York?

Random thought:

Would my teammates consider bad style to lose 1 KK city to JC or Wash?
The attack stacks of the AIs seem easier to kill in a 0% defense city without borders around it to delay both ours and KK's troups. Furthermore, KK would recover its original borders as soon as the city is retaken. It costs 1 pop, when the enemy takes the city, but I think it doesn't cost another one when KK retakes.Funny, I was thinking to myself earlier today, "Who cares if W captures Bombay. It's pop1 anyway?" Then I said, "No, that's no good, because I we lose that culture..." Now that you reminded me that we gain the culture back..."Who cares if W captures Bombay. It's pop1 anyway?"Any other cities: No way. Very BAD style. ;)

IHaving a pair of KK's grens in Murky and be able to decide when they go into action, can help a lot with either Nottingham or NY.Btw, in my testing, the grens leave Murky on the first or second IT after our galleon arrives there. To maintain control over them, we would need to keep the galleon on the adjacent coastal tile.

I'm leaning towards postponing the attack on Rome until Washington falls and/or both Wash and NY is redlined. Which means that we should DoW Washington asap and use all available units in the attack.

I'm leaning towards postponing the attack on Rome until Washington falls and/or both Wash and NY is redlined. Which means that we should DoW Washington asap and use all available units in the attack.

Why?

My initial feeling is this: Rome is furthest, Rome first.

I don't see the difference between W capturing Bombay and JC capturing Besh or Antium. In both cases we get to eliminate an attack stack in a 0 percent tile.

What did I oversimplify this time? :blush:

Why no units adjacent? Currently GW has units adjacent to Bombay. And he may move more on their way to do whatever units do, ending next to a city by accident.
Attack city cats can move to bombard Bombay and are then adjacent. Also once some units bombarded there is an additional bonus to attack the cities.
Also target city mode is not depending on any odds threshold. So a stack can target one of the cities. Then these units are adjacent and the thresholds for the next units lowered.

Also you also have to take into account an error in one of my previous posts :lol:. It's not a factor of 2 but only 1.5 for no units adjacent (the code adds a 1 to the number of units, if the unit itself is not adjacent, so it's 6/4 max).

The first attacks could come from UNITAI_collateral units. They can attack big stacks (>=5) at 20 odds.

Enough, or do I have to scan :scan: the code for more sophisticated ways how the attack could start?


Btw, are you sure KK will bomb New York? Since the GA can move to Murky, that is, he's not totally trapped, does change KK's 'thinking' in any way? Or is his thinking that he still doesn't have a safe route to Bombay or wherever, so he'll bomb New York?
No I'm not sure. He might still just sit around. The whole path finding stuff is unclear and the sources are not available in the SDK. And it's pretty sure bugged. It's e.g. unclear why Sal doesn't do anything though he seems to have a loaded assault sea group in Mecca. If he has a path he should have started to move 10 turns after he had his hands full latest. And for the human it looks like he has a path to everybody.

Why?

My initial feeling is this: Rome is furthest, Rome first.
JC has lbs and maces. He will be as idiotic as KK with his units, so the big number doesn't mean a lot. KK may be even able to handle him on his own.
GW has muskets and grens (he can at least build them).

If we delay Washington, York will also starve to size 1 and Bombay will not grow.

Btw, in my testing, the grens leave Murky on the first or second IT after our galleon arrives there. To maintain control over them, we would need to keep the galleon on the adjacent coastal tile.
I haven't seen units leave unless they are explicitly unloaded.

I haven't seen units leave unless they are explicitly unloaded.I was surprised by it today and tested it several times. I wanted to know if we could leave his units in the galleon and if they defended if we were under attack. One defended against the only attacker, then the other two bolted, leaving Murky entirely empty. :eek:

So then I tried it without any attacks, just times of peace. Zoom zoom, away they went.

Enough...?Uncle.... ;)

If we delay Washington, York will also starve to size 1 and Bombay will not grow.I keep seeing this delay Washington notion. York comes out of resistance in 6 turns. I envision jesusin sending 13 units to JC and still attacking W in about 4-5 turns. Are you talking about attacking W sooner than that?

I don't see the difference between W capturing Bombay and JC capturing Besh or Antium. In both cases we get to eliminate an attack stack in a 0 percent tile.Bombay can't lose any population. EDIT: Losing Antium would be CATASTROPHIC. It's about to gain about 1 pop per turn. Instead it would lose a bunch. That's about a difference of pop10. Literally.

I don't see any difference between killing W at Washington and somewhere else, since we can bombard city defenses. (Okay, there's that paltry 25% fornification factor.)

Bombay can't lose any population.

I don't see any difference between killing W at Washington and somewhere else, since we can bombard city defenses. (Okay, there's that paltry 25% fornification factor.)

The difference, which might be more pronounced for Rome, is that we involve more of KK's units. I an thinking about the city defenders in for example Antium that will get pretty a good defensive bonus.

Bombay can't lose any population. EDIT: Losing Antium would be CATASTROPHIC. It's about to gain about 1 pop per turn. Instead it would lose a bunch. That's about a difference of pop10. Literally.

I don't see any difference between killing W at Washington and somewhere else, since we can bombard city defenses. (Okay, there's that paltry 25% fornification factor.)

Right, Antium would be catastrophic, since it has been Roman and he would recover his borders.


Do we know what lays in WashDC? Can't be a lot, according to the powergraph...

LC, how many tiles can we not own and still get to the land domination?

I know ice doesn't count for land domination, but, do pics count?


I don't think we have a pop problem, although I won't feel sure until I see the first HOF message.



I am for settling the GA in Delhi. Depending on the previous questions, we need London and Wash at 10 culture and Rome out of resistance. NY's and Nott's culture doesn't matter.

Is the team ready to wait for Rome out of resistance?

Do we know what lays in WashDC? Can't be a lot, according to the powergraph...5 turns ago WashDC had 13 units and a settler:

1@ CII musket
2@ CI musket
1@ CGIII lbm
1@ CGII lbm
3@ CGI lbm
3@ lbm
1@ CRI cat
1@ barrageIII cat

LC, how many tiles can we not own and still get to the land domination?

I know ice doesn't count for land domination, but, do pics count?


I don't think we have a pop problem, although I won't feel sure until I see the first HOF message.



I am for settling the GA in Delhi. Depending on the previous questions, we need London and Wash at 10 culture and Rome out of resistance. NY's and Nott's culture doesn't matter.We can not own 9 tiles, according to my count. Mountain peaks (pics?) count.

I think we have a pop problem, but hopefully Biology alone will solve it. We definitely don't want to delay WashDC and starve York. klarius is absolutely right about that. Your plan should include red-lining WashDC in about 5-6 turns at most, whatever that takes, imo.

If you settle in Delhi and capture London and Washington very soon, Rome, NY, and Nottingham do not need to come out of resistance. This is another reason to capture WashDC asap.

Pre-Play-Plan T161-171 <<v2.1>>

OVERVIEW
Settle the GA in Delhi. Help KK capture London. Dow Wash. Redline Wash and NY. If there is time left, send units towards Rome. <<Set up a cruise agency, cheap travels from Murky to London and back again.>>

BUILD QUEUE
<<Galleon x1. Cannon x9.>>

UNIT MOVES
GA runs to settle in Delhi.
Workers: <<both go to>> Athens Corn, to connect it and then to Sparta grass.
Frigates: bombard London while keeping at a distance. Then do the same to Nott (unless we FC Eli to help KK from getting confused <<as long as it doesn't interfere with our galleon>>). The East one loses time doing nothing <<but witness the war there>>.

<<
London units: 3healthy in England to London. 2 healthy S kill both lb and continue to London or WashDC depending on KK's progress in London.

York: 4 neighbouring wounded units , 3 units around Cuzco, wounded unit in England, cannon in silver, 2 healthy Grens from Hamburg all heal and go to WashDC.

Murky: cannon there to furs, as the new ones will, less wounded Gren from York to heal in marble, 1 healthy Gren from Hamburg to get teleported.
Grog the traitor will became Mongol in London. Maybe a wounded unit there too.

Bombay: medic and 4 wounded units first heal for 1 turn thenfrom Hamburg healing there, then to WashDC. OR SHOULD THEY HEAL IN HAMBURG AND GO WASHDC FROM THE WEST?

After WashDC is taken, consider sending some 3 units to Antum and dowing JC. Consider redlining Nott for Grog the traitor and send the other Warrior to a cruise too.
>>

CITY MM
As is.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
DoW Wash around T164.
Steal little gold from KK till we get Biology.
Suggest KK to attack Wash after the dow.
Keep an eye on Wash, Eli and JC techs.
<<Look for an opportunity to trade for RP.>>

STOP CRITERIA
Saladin declares on anyone.
KK puts all his units into Galleons again.
KK has lost a city.
Murky is in danger.

OTHERS
Research - Biology.
Then we use 0%, KK researchs Reem Parts.
Religion/Civics change - none
Monitor KK unit movement

Please, have no mercy with my PPP. I don't feel confident this turnset. There are units I'll have to move! :eek: And they'll probably have to fight, too! :scared:

So many units moving N... :(

I still think it worth it to invest 1 turn in a galleon to get some of KK's units into Murky. Not necessarily our warriors upgraded in London. One could also load some grens and/or cannons, gift them while loaded and transport them back to Murky. Otherwise Nottingham will still stay for a long time.
And KK will not move out of English culture until everything is pillaged in Nottingham's culture south of the water.
The alternative to CF Liz is also not that attractive (but better than just let KK pillage for no gain).

For techs, I would consider to trade for RP if it becomes available and research rifling then.
We hope we win before, but you never know ...

I don't have much to add since I probably can't access any save until Sunday eve. But no dow on JC for 10t? Why not station a gren or two in Antium plus one cannon to slow the roman attack stack? We can dow much sooner and 1) empty Rome of excess units and 2) get KK's excess units rolling towards Rome.

Pre-Play-Plan T161-171 v1.0
BUILD QUEUE
Cannon x10. I agree with klarius. If you're going to shoot your wad on Washington, then you already have plenty of units. I would immediately build the galleon, otherwise it comes back too late, and send 1-2 warriors with it. (Why not?) Just don't put the galleon back into Murky until the turn you red-line Nottingham or New York, whichever one you choose. Then put two cannons in it and do the same for the other city.

UNIT MOVES
Workers: 1 goes to Madrid, to farm grass. 1 goes to Athens Corn, to connect it and then to Sparta grass (maybe the other way around, since I will ignore the 2 Eli's lb in the open).

You only have 20 wkr-turns, so you can make about 3 farms. Any Madrid farm is pointless--no granary. In fact, KK only has four granaries and Kyoto's is empty and Besh's is useless. That leaves Antium and Athens. Antium is already farmed up. That leaves Athens. Athens is perfect. The corn farm gives Antium drastically needed +2:health: and three farms at Athens gives you +1 pop/turn after Biology. That's it.

Units in England help out in London, except the wounded Gren, who heals in York. Gren+Cannon S go to London too just in case. 3Can heal in York, then attack WashDC. The 3 units around Cuzco go to York to heal too. The 2 wounded Gre go heal in our borders, in the marble. The cannon is the silver waits in York. The cannon in Murky and the next 2 built wait in the furs. All the wounded units in Hamburg and the medic run to Bombay to heal there, then attack. The 3 healthy Grens in Hamburg run home and get teleported to our borders if dow happens in 3 turns.

Looks good to me. Just a few points. I think you need more units for WashDC, less for NY. The CRII gren S of York should heal in York. He won't be healthy in time if he goes home. I would send the three healthy CII/III grens in Hamburg to York. You want most of your attack units attacking from the west (no river to cross). The silver cannon going to York: consider upgrading him to Medic if you need to, to get your units healthy in time. He'll still be one bad mofo.

If you're planning to CF Liz after London falls, think about whether you want your units on London E so they teleport toward Murky (I guess) or London SE where they'll have free movement, although KK will probably pillage that road.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Try to keep Cyrus, Hatty, and Louis from being at war with Mansa. (Bribe them out if they DoW.)

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Try to keep Cyrus, Hatty, and Louis from being at war with Mansa. (Bribe them out if they DoW.)
Cyrus and Hatty will not Dow (attitude). Louis is no real problem.

Keeping an eye on trading for RP --> Ok

Sending 2/3 units to Antium and setting JC loose --> Will do after WashDC is taken.

Galleon --> Galleon would be for Nott, not for NY. NY will be taken by KK from S. Waiting for a KK unit to get to Nott while we pillage every S English tile would be painful, so I am considering building 3cannons, Galleon, then 6cannons. I don't want to leave Murky empty, so I will probably load some wounded unit halfway. Is that ok for you, klarius? Or would it be too late? I want 3 cannons in the furs. I fear less could die to Wash's initial assault.

Only 1 wounded Gre home --> ok

3 healthy Gre to York --> No, I want them protecting home from pillaging.

Both Workers W --> Ok, but they won't be together, too close to England borders!

Bribing for peace --> Can I even do it when they have just dowed? They won't talk one another for several turns.

Bribing for peace --> Can I even do it when they have just dowed? They won't talk one another for several turns.

Yes, in fact you can bribe an AI to DoP and then DOW the same AI on the same turn :crazyeye: The only exception is the option might be redded out with the message "fine with us but you have to ask them" I don't know what triggers that, but then you just bribe the other AI to DoP.

Why?

My initial feeling is this: Rome is furthest, Rome first.

That was my feeling as well. There are several reasons for sending everything we have against Washington:


A quick attack and capture of Washington limits the damage GW can do against us and KK
The more units we have next to GW, the less damage he can do against us and KK
The earlier we capture Washington, the earlier York and Bombay starts to grow.
GW is a much tougher opponent than JC, and should be treated with overwhelming military assault
Most important though is the cultural expansion.


I can't really put this in words, but I have this nagging feeling that my preparation for war against JC in my turn set was not aligned with the dot map. If we capture GW-lands first, does Rome need to come out of revolt? I will have to take a closer look at the dot map...

Galleon --> Galleon would be for Nott, not for NY. NY will be taken by KK from S. Waiting for a KK unit to get to Nott while we pillage every S English tile would be painful, so I am considering building 3cannons, Galleon, then 6cannons. I don't want to leave Murky empty, so I will probably load some wounded unit halfway. Is that ok for you, klarius? Or would it be too late? I want 3 cannons in the furs. I fear less could die to Wash's initial assault.Unit placement:
If you have 3 cannons protecting furs, do you also have 3 units protecting marble and 3 on deer? All three are the same, aren't they? EDIT: Okay, the units on the furs are adjacent to W's tiles, so the attack unit final threshold is lower. (To me, the furs are our least valuable resource tile at this point.)

But this is all really confusing anyway. Right now we have 12 cannons and 12 grens. After London, how many of each will you have at York, Bombay, MurkyLand and Delhi? (including the London units going to York or teleporting to MurkyLand)

Delhi
Let's talk about Delhi. Washington could easily send all his attackers from New York and/or Washington there and it's currently guarded by a half-damaged gren (and what appears to be a lbm on the way, if it isn't going to Bombay.) klarius can maybe help us understand if Washington is more likely to send his units from NY at Murky or at Delhi.

The Galleon
KK pillaging Liz tiles is a mini-wart beind your ear that you relieve by CFing Liz. jesusin, I'll tell you what real pain is. Real pain is the stomach cancer of waiting for KK to capture your red-lined cities. I wouldn't trust KK to capture New York without your help. If you make the galleon now, KK could capture NY as early as T165 or T166. Think about it.

I can't really put this in words, but I have this nagging feeling that my preparation for war against JC in my turn set was not aligned with the dot map. If we capture GW-lands first, does Rome need to come out of revolt? I will have to take a closer look at the dot map...No, in that case Rome will not have to come out of revolt. That is maybe the best reason to capture Washington asap. But your positioning of units units in Hamburg was the fastest victory (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7019090&postcount=3490), imo. Instead, we may (or may not) slow things down as many as 3 turns by preventing a worst-case scenario of W launching a massive assault on Delhi or Murky.

I'm completely okay jesusin's decision, because why tempt fate?

At the same time, my most vivid memory from the Ten-Thousand-Year-War-on-Cuzco was that W kept his 200,000 garrisons in Washington the entire time. Meahwhile, JC sent his 10 units from halfway across the world and was the Last Man Standing. :crazyeye:

Better build that Galleon to get klarius to shut up... ;)

Yes, in fact you can bribe an AI to DoP and then DOW the same AI on the same turn :crazyeye: The only exception is the option might be redded out with the message "fine with us but you have to ask them" I don't know what triggers that, but then you just bribe the other AI to DoP.

FiveAces, perhaps you refer to another trigger, so excuse me if I state something trivial: the "fine with us..." message is presented since the IA in question cannot make peace because the opponent will not accept it from the AI.

klarius, do you know the mechanics of early DoW? What enables the die roll to start a war? How is it related to the power ratio? Is it related to relations? Distance between cities? etc...

The most attractive cities for GW are Bombay and York because he has a lot of plot culture in them and they are so near. Murky and Delhi will not be target city. But pillagers may come. These might attack Delhi then.
From Washington DC it's unlikely that any troops can pass by Bombay on the way to Delhi.

Btw, guys, looking at the SG7 score graphs, because of OCC, I have a feeling that fastest finish might also get lowest score...without even doing the SG5 klarius expunge! :crazyeye:

The most attractive cities for GW are Bombay and York because he has a lot of plot culture in them and they are so near. Murky and Delhi will not be target city. But pillagers may come. These might attack Delhi then.
From Washington DC it's unlikely that any troops can pass by Bombay on the way to Delhi.Good info. Now, rather than me blundering through it, is there any chance NY pillagers attack our cannons/grens in the forest or on the hill, or will they sidestep them and go to the plains tiles to pillage? In other words, do we need more than 1 unit on the furs, marble, and deer?

EDIT: I can't resist.
If we put our CIII gren on the furs, no time to fortify. W's CI musket feels his odds are 29-37% against our gren.

CI musket COUNTER (40 threshold): final threshold w/7 adjacent = 24. COUNTER musket attacks.
CI musker ATTACK or PILLAGE (65 threshold): final threshold = 39. No attack.

EDIT2: A COUNTER mace will also attack at 25-33% odds.
A COUNTER lbm will attack at 20-28% odds if the random is >=4.
A COUNTER cat will attack at 17-25% odds, if the random is >=7.
Can maces, lbms, and cats be COUNTER?

So if the mace or the musket go first, W might attack with all 5 units, right?

How'd I do, klarius? ;)

Galleon --> Galleon would be for Nott, not for NY. NY will be taken by KK from S. Waiting for a KK unit to get to Nott while we pillage every S English tile would be painful, so I am considering building 3cannons, Galleon, then 6cannons. I don't want to leave Murky empty, so I will probably load some wounded unit halfway. Is that ok for you, klarius? Or would it be too late? I want 3 cannons in the furs. I fear less could die to Wash's initial assault.


If you build the galleon first you have 2 KK grens to help defend Murky in 4 turns. You don't have to unload them immediately. In addition you can fetch a wounded unit from the London region, which will otherwise not enter action anytime soon.
Why not leave Murky empty for the next few turns?
The interesting times :) come only after the DoW on GW.

The galleon is for Nott. After CF Liz, we will want to take Nott later on and that's when we don't want KK to pillage English tiles. If KK is only at war with Wash, he will send something to NY once WashDC and London have fallen, won't he?


But this is all really confusing anyway. Right now we have 12 cannons and 12 grens. After London, how many of each will you have at York, Bombay, MurkyLand and Delhi? (including the London units going to York or teleporting to MurkyLand)


Changed my mind, if only 1 healthy Gren is teleported home then...

Home: 3 units plus all the new units (gall and 2 cann). cannon in furs, gren in marble, gren just teleported form S.

London: 3+2 units. They will go to America afterwards, except the most wounded who will join Grog in the Galleon.

Bombay: 4wounded units + 1 medic.

Delhi: 0 units

York: 11 units (2 healthy grens+ wounded from England+silver cannon+1 wounded gren of the pair+3 wounded around York+3 from Cuzco).




Wait a second, How many units do we need in the galleon? Isn't 1 enough?

If you build the galleon first you have 2 KK grens to help defend Murky in 4 turns. You don't have to unload them immediately. In addition you can fetch a wounded unit from the London region, which will otherwise not enter action anytime soon.
Why not leave Murky empty for the next few turns?
The interesting times :) come only after the DoW on GW.

In 4 turns? T162 the galleon is built. T164 it enters KK waters. With luck, T165 the unit(s) are upgraded and the travel back starts. They get to Murky T168, 7 turns from now. That's 4 turns after the fun has begun with Wash. I am not leaving Murky undefended. It is the only city, appart from Antium, that I don't want to lose (shudder).

EDIT: I can't resist.
If we put our CIII gren on the furs, no time to fortify. W's CI musket feels his odds are 29-37% against our gren.

CI musket COUNTER (40 threshold): final threshold w/7 adjacent = 24. COUNTER musket attacks.
CI musker ATTACK or PILLAGE (65 threshold): final threshold = 39. No attack.

EDIT2: A COUNTER mace will also attack at 25-33% odds.
A COUNTER lbm will attack at 20-28% odds if the random is >=4.
A COUNTER cat will attack at 17-25% odds, if the random is >=7.
Can maces, lbms, and cats be COUNTER?

So if the mace or the musket go first, W might attack with all 5 units, right?

How'd I do, klarius? ;)

The relevant threshold for attack is 45. Only pillaging the tile they are on would come before, not pillaging the next turn. Counter units are not the problem as they will be grouped to another unit who does the decision.

OTOH, we don't know how many units will be really there when the decision is taken (attack city might already be under way to Bombay). And city defense, city counter and city special don't count as adjacent potential attackers (which makes sense as they never attack).
A mace might be a city counter.

Edit:
In fact, I think, the mace has to be city counter. Other types would have been upgraded to gren.

Why care if Washington pillages any of our tiles??? We can build Maces in five turns, and upgrade them to grens if we shut down our research.

Btw, guys, looking at the SG7 score graphs, because of OCC, I have a feeling that fastest finish might also get lowest score...without even doing the SG5 klarius expunge! :crazyeye:
No chance for the wooden spoon. This time we will get an in game victory condition and by that a final score. That will most likely be highest for the earliest finishes.

Let's do the Gnejs thing and see if we can determine the UNIT_AI of W's units.

New York has:
Non-attackers
CI musket -- CITY_DEFENSE or PILLAGE (if ATTACK, COUNTER, or RESERVE it would be stacked to a cat)
mace -- CITY_COUNTER (not upgraded to gren)
lbm -- CITY_DEFENSE (upgraded from original archer)
lbm -- ? (also upgraded from original archer, but could be CITY_DEFENSE, CITY_COUNTER and CITY_SPECIAL, or what?)

Possible attackers
CRI cat -- CITY_ATTACK
BarrageI cat -- COLLATERAL
CRI cat -- CITY_ATTACK

Washington has:
CII musket -- CITY_DEFENSE or PILLAGE (if ATTACK, COUNTER, or RESERVE it would be stacked to a cat)
CI musket -- CITY_DEFENSE or PILLAGE (if ATTACK, COUNTER, or RESERVE it would be stacked to a cat)
CI musket -- CITY_DEFENSE or PILLAGE (if ATTACK, COUNTER, or RESERVE it would be stacked to a cat)
CI CGII lbm -- ?
CGII lbm -- CITY_DEFENSE
CGI lbm -- CITY_DEFENSE
lbm -- CITY_DEFENSE (upgraded from original archer)
lbm -- ? (upgraded from original archer)
lbm -- ? (upgraded from original archer)
CGI lbm -- ? (stacked to above lbm?)
CGI lbm -- ? (stacked?)
barrageIII cat -- COLLATERAL
CRI cat -- CITY_ATTACK
settler (why is nothing stacked to this?)

I don't see any attacking units other than the cats. klarius? EDIT: Yeah, I know, the order they are listed doesn't tell us anything about their stacking, right?

Does this explain why all those units just sat there during the Cuzco wars?

No chance for the wooden spoon. This time we will get an in game victory condition and by that a final score. That will most likely be highest for the earliest finishes.Thank goodness.

In 4 turns? T162 the galleon is built. T164 it enters KK waters. With luck, T165 the unit(s) are upgraded and the travel back starts. They get to Murky T168, 7 turns from now. That's 4 turns after the fun has begun with Wash. I am not leaving Murky undefended. It is the only city, appart from Antium, that I don't want to lose (shudder).
The galleon is in London T163 (assuming it's taken by KK :)) and the units are gifted. In the IBT KK will upgrade them and the galleon leaves immediately for Murky.
T165 they are back in Murky. And BTW, it would not be necessary to wait for upgrade, it just fits nice with the distance to London. The units can be upgraded loaded on the ship in Murky.

Pre-Play-Plan T161-171 v1.0

OVERVIEW - looks good, perhaps DoW JC if it looks suitable?

BUILD QUEUE - start with Galleon this turn, then cannons, and then maces if we don't have the production (if we want to grow a pop for example).

UNIT MOVES - please kill the LBMs!!! Else they will return to London :eek:

Please take a look at Moscow to get an idea if it will fall soon.

Please don't move the Hamburg units until they are healed to keep options open.

The galleon is for Nott. After CF Liz, we will want to take Nott later on and that's when we don't want KK to pillage English tiles. If KK is only at war with Wash, he will send something to NY once WashDC and London have fallen, won't he? My prayers are with you, Mr, Die-Hard Optimist. KK's units will need 4t minimum to get to NY from anywhere except our galleon. So you DoW W on T164, you red-line and KK captures WashDC on T166, KK starts moving toward NY on T167, you red-line and KK captures on T170. Best-case scenario (but unlikely because of pillaging).In 4 turns? T162 the galleon is built. T164 it enters KK waters. With luck, T165 the unit(s) are upgraded and the travel back starts. They get to Murky T168, 7 turns from now. That's 4 turns after the fun has begun with Wash. I am not leaving Murky undefended. It is the only city, appart from Antium, that I don't want to lose (shudder).No.

With the galleon: Built T162, moves into London at first opportunity (T163 posssible, but more likely T164). KK upgrade units in IT (every time in testing, plus he can do it in our territory anyway, we just can't gift them in our territory), and back in Murky T166 (or T165). You red-line and KK captures NY on T166 (or T165). Best-case (and most likely) scenario. Then the galleon goes back for another KK unit, arrives back on T170 and you capture the other city. You don't even need to be lucky. You just build the galleon and red-line the cities.

I'm not even sure how the gifted KK units will work for Nottingham, because it's actually 2 turns away from Murky. But I think there's one thing you're missing here, jesusin: Capturing London, Nottingham, and New York have always been nightmare scenarios because of the distance KK has to travel across pillageable land. We got lucky on London, because the assault galleons. Then klarius came up with this brilliant shortcut using the galleon. Please don't underestimate the distance from Delhi, Bombay, and WashDC to Nottingham and NY. It's huge. Believe me. The only other short-cut that we know of is using Gnejs' path method, but that requires huge amounts of pillagers.>>> crossposts are fun, to quote klarius :lol: <<<

The galleon is in London T163 (assuming it's taken by KK :)) and the units are gifted. In the IBT KK will upgrade them and the galleon leaves immediately for Murky.
T165 they are back in Murky. And BTW, it would not be necessary to wait for upgrade, it just fits nice with the distance to London. The units can be upgraded loaded on the ship in Murky.

You mean KK can upgrade them if they are in Murky...

And travelling only to London and gifting there...so you have faith in KK taking the city... and you don't believe LC's "they got down the ship I saw it with my own two eyes"?

Who should I believe, KK or LC? Hmmmm:confused:

jesusin, another thought for your PPP: How about suggesting to KK to attack Nottingham, starting this turn? You might get lucky and have a CITY_ATTACK unit there before you know it.

Target City is lower priority than attack city, so that shouldn[t affect any of the units next to London, right klarius?

You mean KK can upgrade them if they are in Murky...

And travelling only to London and gifting there...so you have faith in KK taking the city... and you don't believe LC's "they got down the ship I saw it with my own two eyes"?

Who should I believe, KK or LC? Hmmmm:confused:NO NO NO NO NO. ;)

You misunderstood. The point of that is that when the galleon gets to Murky, they will disembark and go whether you unload them or not. But you want to red-line New York that turn anyway, so you want to unload them anyway. If you have red-lined the city, you want them to go and don't forget to unload them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you haven't red-lined the city yet, don't put the galleon into Murky until you do, or walk the plank and don't blame it on klarius, because I warned you.

With the galleon: Built T162, moves into London at first opportunity (T163 posssible, but more likely T164). KK upgrade units in IT (every time in testing, plus he can do it in our territory anyway, we just can't gift them in our territory), and back in Murky T166 (or T165).

Who's the optimist here? It was you how kept telling the units unloaded on their own. If I gift in London without unloading the units, don't you think they would go away based on your testing?

Home: 3 units plus all the new units (gall and 2 cann). cannon in furs, gren in marble, gren just teleported form S.So why don't you just red-line New York on T164 and not worry about defending the g'dam furs? :cool:

NO NO NO NO NO. ;)

You misunderstood. The point of that is that when the galleon gets to Murky, they will disembark and go whether you unload them or not. But you want to red-line New York that turn anyway, so you want to unload them anyway. If you have red-lined the city, you want them to go and don't forget to unload them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you haven't red-lined the city yet, don't put the galleon into Murky until you do, or walk the plank and don't blame it on klarius, because I warned you.

You misunderstood, I didn't misunderstood, nah nah nah naah nah nah ;)

I meant they would unload on their own IN LONDON

Whose the optimist here? It was you how kept telling the units unloaded on their own. If I gift in London without unloading the units, don't you think they would go away based on your testing?Nope. That's a different test. There are two tests: Our galleon with KK's gifted units in KK's city and our galleon with KK's gifted units in Murky.

In KK's city, two things happen:
1. First turn they upgrade, so they can't move anyway, can they?
2. Second and every turn thereafter (I hit enter for about 20 turns), the chumps just sit in the galleon and play with themselves, like all good sailors.

DOn't ask me why. Test it yourself, if you don't believe me. It's easy enough. Takes about 2 minutes.

You misunderstood, I didn't misunderstood, nah nah nah naah nah nah ;)

I meant they would unload on their own IN LONDONI get it. Okay. SO if you want to play it safe, gift them the next turn, just before you leave London. As klarius says, they'll still upgrade themselves.

duplicato.

Edit2:
Gifting him more cats than counter is not working :(. Attack city units will retreat to the next city unless they have another unit stacked to them. And they don't stack together.klarius: Is our warrior an attack city unit? Do we need to gift a stackable unit with the warrior to make sure he won't "retreat to the next city"?

And if so, does jesusin need to gift them in this order:

No. The units will take slots of dead units in reverse order they died (unless he would be at his maximum units ever now - not likely, but anyway gift the counter(s) first).

OVERVIEW - looks good, perhaps DoW JC if it looks suitable?

BUILD QUEUE - start with Galleon this turn, then cannons, and then maces if we don't have the production (if we want to grow a pop for example).

UNIT MOVES - please kill the LBMs!!! Else they will return to London :eek:

They can't get to London.

Anyway, I was hoping someone would suggest sending just 3 units to London, not 5. Those 2 could kill the lbs, heal in York and join the WashDC forces. Or, if we feel it isn't enough for London, we could send them to London wounded after killing the lbs. Preferences?


Please take a look at Moscow to get an idea if it will fall soon.

Ok


Please don't move the Hamburg units until they are healed to keep options open.

Thank you for bringing this. I have the uneasy feeling that Bombay will revolt anyway with my units in it, wounding them further.
The options are
- healing were they are, then going to WashDC from the W.
- healing in Bombay to avoid revolts and help KK there if need be, then attack Wash DC from the E or NY if WashDC is evacuated.
Preferences?

So why don't you just red-line New York on T164 and not worry about defending the g'dam furs? :cool:

I don't give a briting_shick for the furs.
I just want some 5 units around Murky and the tiles with natural defenses occupied, so that if a Wash stack would head for Murky (maybe because it is empty) I have enough units to kill them in the open.

EDIT: redlining NY? What with?

Once again, in my tests the units never unload on their own. Not in a foreign city, not in our city. I don't know what LC did. Maybe hit the unload button somewhere on the travel before.

Anyway, I was hoping someone would suggest sending just 3 units to London, not 5. Those 2 could kill the lbs, heal in York and join the WashDC forces. Or, if we feel it isn't enough for London, we could send them to London wounded after killing the lbs. Preferences?
Here's a fun idea. You have 2 cannons at York NE.
1. The 10.3/12 8/10XP cannon attacks at 95.3% odds and gains 2XP if it wins, good for a promotion.
2. The 7.7/12 9/10XP cannon attacks at only 70.5% odds but will also get to promote, if it wins.

Caution: The 8.04/12 7/10XP gren at York S will not get 3 XP if he wins (by a mere 1 HP :eek:).

I like the idea of those two units also going to London, just in case. But they will not be able to teleport to Murky, if KK captures London on T164.

I just want some 5 units around Murky and the tiles with natural defenses occupied, so that if a Wash stack would head for Murky (maybe because it is empty) I have enough units to kill them in the open.

An attack could come only from NY. You could just kill the units there then nothing will come :).
From Washington nothing will get to Murky with all the better and nearer targets.
Having warriors in Murky will not change anything. We have a better unit (the new built one) always in the city, when GW's units do their decision.

An attack could come only from NY. You could just kill the units there then nothing will come :).


What with? By dow, T164, I'll have an almost healed Gren, a teleported Gren 2 turns away from NY, 2 cannons in the furs, 1 cannon in Murky.

The cannons will bombard and then it's Wash reaction's turn.

...I don't see any difference between killing W at Washington and somewhere else, since we can bombard city defenses. (Okay, there's that paltry 25% fornification factor.)

I think Mr LC is typing with his thoughts elsewhere :p

There are many advantages to kill units outside cities. First thing: there will be less units, which thus requires less attackers. Second, units that are not killed will have to move back to city to heal and will thus loose a turn of healing. Third, your injured units are not subject to counter-attack, if they move from the correct direction. And finally, the most important reason is the divide-and-counter tactics which worked supremely in the Cuzco red-line operation by yours truly :goodjob:

...The alternative to CF Liz is also not that attractive (but better than just let KK pillage for no gain).

Will Liz sign open borders with us if we CF? Else we need to stay in war, yes?

No, in that case Rome will not have to come out of revolt...

Is it possible to reach domination-pop if we raze Rome? That may speed up the victory...

The most attractive cities for GW are Bombay and York because he has a lot of plot culture in them and they are so near. Murky and Delhi will not be target city. But pillagers may come. These might attack Delhi then.
From Washington DC it's unlikely that any troops can pass by Bombay on the way to Delhi.

Again, I think we should defend Murky with as few units as possible, and station a majority of units in York and Bombay, and a few in the south.

Once again, in my tests the units never unload on their own. Not in a foreign city, not in our city. I don't know what LC did. Maybe hit the unload button somewhere on the travel before.I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. :p

Actually this testing is becoming rather intriguing. Full of surprises. More testing may be advised.

Below are two saves. In the first one I used worldbuilder and have four variations in one.
1. One galleon I parked in Hatty's city. Hatty's gifted units stayed in our galleon the entire time.
2. One galleon I left her territory the same turn as gifting. Those units did not upgrade till they arrived at Murky. This meant they were not able to move the turn they arrived.
3. One galleon stayed overnight in in Hatty's city, then went to Murky. These units upgraded.
4. One galleon stayed overnight in Hatty's coastal water, then went to Murky. These units did not upgrade before arriving at Murky.

Basic observations:
1. Units upgrade in cities only.
2. Units will NOT move till fully upgraded, even after being unloaded.
3. When fully upgraded, units leave immediately when unloaded.
4. When fully upgraded, if not unloaded, units leave 1 turn after arriving in port, if open borders.
5. When fully upgraded, if not unloaded, if we're at war with neighbors and no open borders to HattyLand, Hatty's units attack intruders the turn after arriving in port!
6. When fully upgraded and unloaded, units will capture a red-lined city that is only 1 turn away.

In the second save, I did limited testing. In this save, I did not use worldbuilder. I hand-built the galleon. Loaded the original warrior and archer and went to HattyLand and back. These units also left the galleon from Murky without being unloaded, on the second turn. I also noted a few surprising details in both testing cycles. The AI will do funny things with their upgrades, such as upgrade one warrior to a gren and the other to a mace. Then when they arrive in Murky, the mace will upgrade to a gren. Or the archer will upgrade to a lbm, and then in Murky upgrade to a rifleman. :crazyeye: This could potentially slow down capturing New York by a turn.

CONCLUSIONS FOR JESUSIN
1. Load galleon with 1 warrior.
2. Gift in London.
3a. If warrior is already upgraded to a gren, go straight to Murky, then red-line NY and unload the gren.
3b. If warrior is not FULLY upgraded to a gren, then go to Murky and unload only if you've already red-lined NY. The gren will attack after upgrading fully.
.

klarius: Is our warrior an attack city unit? Do we need to gift a stackable unit with the warrior to make sure he won't "retreat to the next city"?



The warriors are the only plain vanilla attack units we can gift. That's the beauty of this action. Otherwise we have only attack city or counter available.

The warriors are the only plain vanilla attack units we can gift. That's the beauty of this action. Otherwise we have only attack city or counter available.Then I think we should use them one at a time, first one for NY, then one for Nott, if KK hasn't already sent someone to Nott.

I think Mr LC is typing with his thoughts elsewhere :p

There are many advantages to kill units outside cities. I agree with all you say here, but I was responding to the idea of killing units in ROme or in Besh. Either way the city has 0 defenses if we rip them with our cannons.

And all my thoughts are right here in this hole where I always live. ;)

Is it possible to reach domination-pop if we raze Rome? That may speed up the victory...I highly doubt it and I definitely would NOT plan on it, but we won't really know till klarius gets to that point.

Then I think we should use them one at a time, first one for NY, then one for Nott, if KK hasn't already sent someone to Nott.
For NY we could also use a gifted attack city gren or cannon, as it can be attacked in one turn.

If you build the galleon first you have 2 KK grens to help defend Murky in 4 turns. You don't have to unload them immediately. In addition you can fetch a wounded unit from the London region, which will otherwise not enter action anytime soon.
Why not leave Murky empty for the next few turns?
The interesting times :) come only after the DoW on GW.

I like I like. Good thinking.

... We got lucky on London, because the assault galleons...

What lucky? First FiveAces insinuates it was LUCK that made Cuzco revolt, and now you...

...
In KK's city, two things happen:
1. First turn they upgrade, so they can't move anyway, can they?
2. Second and every turn thereafter (I hit enter for about 20 turns), the chumps just sit in the galleon and play with themselves, like all good sailors...

Unloading is not an action for human players i.e. does not consume move points and can thus be done after upgrade. No idea if this applies to AI too :confused:

PPP updated to v2.0

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7023906&postcount=3524

Please vote on the place for healing the 4 Hamburg units, Hamburg or Bombay?

Unloading is not an action for human players...

Who is it for?

You know, don't tell anyone but I once unloaded some units from a ship, what am I then, a robot, a beast? :lol:

What lucky? First FiveAces insinuates it was LUCK that made Cuzco revolt, and now you...Sorry. Now I remember. Gnejs had that all planned out. :lol: :p

Unloading is not an action for human players i.e. does not consume move points and can thus be done after upgrade. No idea if this applies to AI too :confused:Yes, I know. I'm just reporting what actually happens when I test it. The AI evidentally can't think that much. Instead, he'll take 3 turns to upgrade, unload, move. :crazyeye:

They can't get to London.

Anyway, I was hoping someone would suggest sending just 3 units to London, not 5. Those 2 could kill the lbs, heal in York and join the WashDC forces. Or, if we feel it isn't enough for London, we could send them to London wounded after killing the lbs. Preferences?

Thank you for bringing this. I have the uneasy feeling that Bombay will revolt anyway with my units in it, wounding them further.
The options are
- healing were they are, then going to WashDC from the W.
- healing in Bombay to avoid revolts and help KK there if need be, then attack Wash DC from the E or NY if WashDC is evacuated.
Preferences?

They move before KK, so may go back towards London, yes? In that case, they may attract attention from KK units next to London, which is not good. I've already suggested sending only 3 units to London a while back, but if you ask me, I'll suggest it again. Don't send injured units to London.

It won't matter much if Bombay revolts before DoW as long as you keep your units outside the city. Move into the city the moment before you DoW. The city won't revolt once we're in war with GW.

I don't give a briting_shick for the furs.
I just want some 5 units around Murky and the tiles with natural defenses occupied, so that if a Wash stack would head for Murky (maybe because it is empty) I have enough units to kill them in the open.

EDIT: redlining NY? What with?

With the 5 units!!! Why do you want defenses? You build a new unit each turn. One units should be enough as permanent defense. Keep the other units >2 tiles from NY, don't stop him from pillaging. We want GW to send units towards Murky.

PPP updated to v2.0

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7023906&postcount=3524

Please vote on the place for healing the 4 Hamburg units, Hamburg or Bombay?Looks excellent to me! I vote Bombay. I prefer overkill. If you're focusing on WashDC, make sure you get it fast. Same with London.

Btw, jesusin, did you notice this post? I think you might get a KK unit up to Nottingham without working for it:

jesusin, another thought for your PPP: How about suggesting to KK to attack Nottingham, starting this turn? You might get lucky and have a CITY_ATTACK unit there before you know it.

Target City is lower priority than attack city, so that shouldn[t affect any of the units next to London, right klarius?You know, don't tell anyone but I once unloaded some units from a ship, what am I then, a robot, a beast? :lol:I met this oriental gal from Madrid who said you're a beast.

WHen are you planing to play tomorrow?

They move before KK, so may go back towards London, yes? In that case, they may attract attention from KK units next to London, which is not good. I've already suggested sending only 3 units to London a while back, but if you ask me, I'll suggest it again. Don't send injured units to London.
Ok, I'll decide where to send the lb-killers depending on what KK is doing in London.


It won't matter much if Bombay revolts before DoW as long as you keep your units outside the city. Move into the city the moment before you DoW. The city won't revolt once we're in war with GW.
That's the answer! I will heal in Hamburg for 1 turn, then travel to Bombay for 2 turns, then dow. End of healing there and then advancing.



With the 5 units!!! Why do you want defenses? You build a new unit each turn. One units should be enough as permanent defense. Keep the other units >2 tiles from NY, don't stop him from pillaging. We want GW to send units towards Murky.

I would like to see your face when I report back that I have lost Murky.

Nonsense. Only 2 of the 5 units will be in position to attack on t164. I want some 4 cannons to attack NY and I want all of his units inside the city for the collateral effect.

PPP updated to v2.0

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7023906&postcount=3524

Please vote on the place for healing the 4 Hamburg units, Hamburg or Bombay?

If you are nearly certain kk will lose a city after you finish your turn please stop then (at the beginning of your turn) as we will need to decide whether to try to retake it immediately or not.

I vote for them to heal in Hamburg. My reasoning is if things go really well with Wash we want them closer to JC.

EDIT: Ok, they can go to BB like you've planned above.

Updated to v2.1. I have seen FiveAces post. Are there more people voting for staying in Hamburg?


Looks excellent to me! I vote Bombay. I prefer overkill. If you're focusing on WashDC, make sure you get it fast. Same with London.

Btw, jesusin, did you notice this post? I think you might get a KK unit up to Nottingham without working for it:

I think that if I ask t161, even if it is succesful, I won't have the units to redline Nott.


I met this oriental gal from Madrid who said you're a beast.

WHen are you planing to play tomorrow?

First thing in the morning. About now+10hours.

If you are nearly certain kk will lose a city after you finish your turn please stop then (at the beginning of your turn) as we will need to decide whether to try to retake it immediately or not.

Sure.

I vote for them to heal in Hamburg. My reasoning is if things go really well with Wash we want them closer to JC.

EDIT: Ok, they can go to BB like you've planned above.
Ah, ok then.

I think that if I ask t161, even if it is succesful, I won't have the units to redline Nott.What do you have to lose? You don't know where it will come from or when it will get there. Maybe right after NY. Maybe you won't want to CF liz. Maybe you CF LIz and it's there for NY. Maybe it's there and helps defend against NY. Et cetera. Worst comes to worst, it just hangs out nearby when you CF liz.

Ok, will do t161.

What do you have to lose? You don't know where it will come from or when it will get there. Maybe right after NY. Maybe you won't want to CF liz. Maybe you CF LIz and it's there for NY. Maybe it's there and helps defend against NY. Et cetera. Worst comes to worst, it just hangs out nearby when you CF liz.

There is no notion in the PPP to CF Lisa.

PPP looks good, but please keep track of any specialists running in the critical cities i.e. monitor culture in KK's new cities.

jesusin, did you read in my report about the aggressive grens? The one in Delhi went straight towards it without pillaging together with the one in Bombay. Which means that the Bombay gren may go directly to a city without pillaging.

PPP looking good. Is there a contingency plan if the London capture is delayed or KK even screws up completely there?
No further tech trades are needed, but I guess you had no such plans anyway.
jesusin, good luck!!! :)

On closer read I see that you want to trade for RP. Remember that we want a slow tech progress now so that nobody else gets Biology. Only trade techs if you are certain that it won't propel some AI towards Bio.

There is no notion in the PPP to CF Lisa.


Well, there is, in the frigates line...

Understood, Erkon and Gnejs. Tomorrow is the day!

Good luck, jesusin! In case I fall asleep before you begin... ;)

Well, there is, in the frigates line...

Understood, Erkon and Gnejs. Tomorrow is the day!

Good luck!

Please also mention it in the Diplomatic Actions :mischief:

And please keep in mind that we can't send any Galleons past Nottingham if we CF, can we :eek: (don't remember the exact map, which is a good sign on my mental health :lol:)

You could CF Liz just to teleport the units, then re-declare, if you want.

Report turnset T161-T171

T161. Change to gall, move the GA, ask KK to go for Nott, ask KK for 100g. Kill both lb. Move units as planned. Hat's frigate+3units attacking a 11 units (mostly lb) Moscu. Have you ever promoted a cannon to medic? I am a peacemonger and that shows.

T162. GS in Pers, GE in Timb. KK frigate ignores Eliz carav. Wash would trade MilTra, no thanks. Look for KK units in London...10 , most of them wounded... this had to be good. Let's see into London... hundreds of stupid ships, 3 wounded cats. The 3 units keep advancing towards London since they will reach York in 1 turn after London falls. But no more reinforcements will be sent. York is the gathering point. 3Mus, 8lb,2Cat in Wash, 2mus closeby. Ask for 1150g to KK, 300g left. Grog the traitor won't board the ship until it is combat1, I comply. GA is not settled in Delhi, wait 1 turn, there are 2 turns of revolt left, why lose possibilities. 5units in Hamburg start their trip to Bombay. London defenses 0%.

T163. Pascal is a GE, isn't he? Well, anyway, he died the day he was born, in London, when Mongolia took the city. Pop12, granary and things. The only surviving nets are inside England borders. We go from 147/282 land to 149/282 land. The pop mssage isn't showing??? Raise limit from 20% to 50%. F8 says we are 33%, 40% needed. KK lowers his bar to 60%, not borrowing more money. Bio in 3 anyway. There's a KK frigate next to Mecca. Sal pop 66, as in the save. Nott borders grow up toYork, my units are not coming back in 1t. No FC since tha galleon has to go back yet. Gift grog in London on the ship, together with a cannon. 2KK lb are going to Delhi, which will be out of revolt next turn, settle the GA there. Our 5 units in Bombay reduce revolt chances to 7,31%. 2 Wash Mus next to Bombay, another next to York, garrisons are the same. Uh, uh, there is 1 Mus inside KK fleet. Nott bombarded. 11russians in Moscu, 1 outside. 4Hat units coming from the N, 1 single rifle from the E. Both Workers farming the Corn, I feel safe.

T164. KK wants to give us Dyes, no thanks my friend. Cathy wants out SciMEt for her DivRig, no thanks gal. KK has pillaged Nott nets, won't he understand? His fleet is in London. 9 units of his in York. Delhi is out of revolt and has 21c. I suspect he will deassign the specialists next turn. KK helped with the Corn, farmed.



1 hour of rest. I am about to dow Wash and not FC Liz, neither before nor later. No FC to keep KK muskets in England from teleporting S. Or would them end up in York? Questions: I plan to leave 2 cannons healing in York, should I bring them to Wash? Bombay units will stay, but there are 2 Mus next, should 1 CR3 cannon attack them from Bombay? I plan to keep the gifted units in the galleon, far from the coast. Is that ok or should I go to Murky asap and tell KK to go for NY? Should I tell KK to go for Wash now?
Posts up to 3605 belong here.

T164. Gall to our waters, Nott bombarded. Our good friend Wash accepts to gift us 30g, dow him in return. 2 bombards to NY, teleported Gren to furs, new cannon to marble with still wounded gren. CF Lizz. Our units teleport 1SE London. She won't OB. All York units towards Wash, in 2 groups. Wounded cannons and medic stay in Bombay. Bombay cannon kills Mus (barely). Gren kills wounded Musket ending in the open, to try and lure some units out of Wash.

T165. Wash suicides a lb on the exposed Gren, then doesn't finish him! 4 KK units out of York, one is for pillaging, the E ones maybe... 1 Wash Musket in our Deer. All Cats in NY upgraded to cannons. Copper Wash lb rusn W, I imagine he wants our workers. Sell Crabs to Cyrus for 6gpt, nobody cares. Can't kill the Musket in the Deer, so mm to both cottages and 1 sea tile. The new cannon to the Stone, to avoid him advancing covered. Wounded Musket will end healing. 3 cannons+Mus bombarb NY to 0%. Hat loaded fleet in the sea next to Moscu, Moscu will fall in 2 turns. Almost dead Gre+Can stay in Bombay, Medic+2wounded Cannons advance to Wash. Since Grog is a Mace, I position the Galleon in Murky but don't unload. Ask 100g from K to be able to upgrade the Warrior next turn. He has 500g left and is back to 70%.

T166. Bio got, ask KK to go fro RP. 0% research. 3cannons attack from NY, 1 dies, Gre+Can lost. Mus pillages Deer. Now there are 4 units in NY, Mus+wounded Cann outside. Grog is a gren and both are in the galleon. Unload Gall and redline NY won't work cause Wash moves before KK, puaj. Wash retired cannon+3Mus next to Bombay. 8 units left in WashDC. All KK units have pillaged. Kioto borders to expand in 10 turns, Delhi in 2. Berlin is KK's GPFarm. Lots of KK units will happen to be born next turn. REdline NY with 3 cannons, cannon 1.2 left. Bombard WashDC to 0%. Unload Grog and friend. There are KK fri+gall in Murky, he won't load them, will he? War loaded, Gall gone, Murky undefended while there are enemies 2 tiles away... this team is a bad influence for me! 9 units in Moscu, 8 attackers outside, it will resist 1 more turn. Pop messages are not appearing turn off land alerts... 21units in Rome. Sal is pop68, 15%.

T167. GS in Rome, GA in Mecca. Deer roads pillaged. 4units left in Moscu, 8 attackers. Trade Comm to Hat in exchange for peace with Cathy, Econo, 100g and WM. Wash Mus+Cann retired to NY, Grog went to the silver (?), I am glad I brought his friend, since he killed the NY Musket. Wash lb was going to protect the iron W of York, KK killed him. KK York units keep pillaging, 1 is free now. 10 units in Wash. Redline NY, 5.4 cannon left, KK Gren has 6.6. Wash redlined, 4.8 cannon left, no loses. Dow Lizz, Gall to London, War gifted, pity no friend to go with him. Bombard Nott, 3 units there, kill Carav.

T168. Hmmm, errr, I have lost all our trades... JC triggers a GAge. New Gren in NY, KK Gren seems to have suicided! Grog pillages silver (who said it was an born-city-taker?). Delhi border expands, York starves. 7 KK units 2W of WashDC in a pillaged tile. That has to be good. 4 units in WashDC. Wait!, there is a KK gren in a Galleon 1N of Nott. Should I FC to recover trades or leave him go for Nott? The Wash Mus on the Deer moves 1W. Oh, no, I haven't built a cannon this turn! I am stupid! Where is the plank? Redline NY, approach full health cannon to Nott in case KK disembarks. Wash redlined.

Wife's timeout, 6-7 hours rest.


Post up to 3615 belong here. Continuing T168. The 5 units coming from Bombay retire SE, towards JC. 1 Wash Gre retires N, 2 retire SW. Tehe 2 units that should have stayed in London pillage to free up 1 KK Mus.

T169. 167 tiles. Cathy and Sal have a DP. We'd better win before 40 turns or I'll regret having given "useless" Comm to Cathy. 7KK units 1SW of WashDC, 2 units 1NW. New Pike in Wash, redlined. Frigates bombard, cannon kills in Nott. NY cannon is 9.0, move galleon to Murky and unload (waiting for another Wash unit in NY is pointless as only 1 cannon would cause collateral on the cannon). Workers farming 1NE of unirrigated rice. Build a Gren for gifting next.

T170. Musa closes borders. My video card must have broken since I don't see blue borders anymore...wait a second, that red message says the american civilization exists no more... both WashDC and NY have fallen the same turn... as I had planned from the beggining. 224/282 tiles. I get no pop messages, which is a pity since I don't trust F8 screen, that says we have 38.8% of pop, Sal 16%, needed 41%. Our borders expand next turn, giving at least 11 tiels. Kioto in 6 turns, 1 more tile. Delhi in 18 turns should be too late. Cuzco has 10c so will expand a lot when out of resistance. York in 14 turns. KK has built 3 new units S, this is as good a time as any other to dow JC... and I have to hurry if I want to lose a KK city on my turnset. Ask for his 40g and dow. Nott redlined. Healthy Gre+Cann, wounded cannon board galleon for an overkill on Nott. Our units have heard about the fountain of youth in Rome and they all run S. Frigate bombards Rome. Lose a bunch of hammers while building a WB next. Who cares for health in Murky? Gift Cows and Clams to KK, ask him some of his Rice.

T171. GS in Susa, border expands, 233 tiles. 11 JC units in Rome, 10 went 3E, 1 KK cannon wounded them. No KK units going for Nott. Several approach Rome borders. The stack is stuck at WashDC. Time for klarius to play.

1 hour of rest. I am about to dow Wash and not FC Liz, neither before nor later. No FC to keep KK muskets in England from teleporting S. Or would them end up in York? Questions: I plan to leave 2 cannons healing in York, should I bring them to Wash? Bombay units will stay, but there are 2 Mus next, should 1 CR3 cannon attack them from Bombay? I plan to keep the gifted units in the galleon, far from the coast. Is that ok or should I go to Murky asap and tell KK to go for NY? Should I tell KK to go for Wash now?
DoWing GW and not CF (or destroy) Liz will mean we lose our trade routes.
If you DoW GW then CF Liz, KK's units will end up on American soil near York most probably (depends on where they are exactly.
Edit: looked into the save now. 4 muskets will end up in York with a CF. Cannon and 1 musket in London.
If you can kill American units at good odds in the open you should do it.
You don't have to tell KK to go for NY. Units in Murky will do it anyway if the odds are right.

How bad are the york cannons hurt? As long as they are able to kill a partially wounded lbm, I would bring them to wash just in case. But I am not an expert in warfare, so please defer to our teammates if they advise differently.

Is the CR3 cannon stuck (i.e. can it not attack wash/ny without being exposed?) and what do you/kk have that can kill the muskets? If nothing and it's stuck, then yes I would attack. If it's not stuck, then I wouldn't attack until absolutely necessary or you get much better odds like if the muskets attack and survive. Again though, defer if advised otherwise.

I would tell kk to go wherever is going to be redlined first, and to NY if both cities will be redlined at the same time.

Report turnset T161-T171

1 hour of rest. I am about to dow Wash and not FC Liz, neither before nor later. No FC to keep KK muskets in England from teleporting S. Or would them end up in York? Questions: I plan to leave 2 cannons healing in York, should I bring them to Wash? Bombay units will stay, but there are 2 Mus next, should 1 CR3 cannon attack them from Bombay? I plan to keep the gifted units in the galleon, far from the coast. Is that ok or should I go to Murky asap and tell KK to go for NY? Should I tell KK to go for Wash now?

Good news on London! :goodjob:

First you CF with Liz to get units teleported out of Nott-culture, then DoW GW, then DoW Liz.

Bring everything from York. No healing necessary, they can bombard. Together with the silver gren, you can bombard W in two turns, and red-line it in three turns. Bring two more units than there are defenders. Ignore the muskets, move the three cannons and one gren in Bombay west (not NW) this turn. They can attack over river, no problem. Leave the medic gren, which is enough as defense. If GW attacks Bombay, you can kill his stack next turn anyway.

Bring the Galleon home.

...I would tell kk to go wherever is going to be redlined first, and to NY if both cities will be redlined at the same time.

If we are lucky, both cities will be red-lined in three turns (no pressure jesusin! :D)

First you CF with Liz to get units teleported out of Nott-culture, then DoW GW, then DoW Liz.


If you don't mind, I prefer Klarius way, first dow Wash, move galleon and bombard Nott, FC Liz, stay at peace with her.

Thanks for your ideas. There I go again!

I would rather:
Move the galleon.
CF Liz and stay at peace for a turn at least, so KK's units don't go back to pillage England. We don't need to be at war until we want to move the galleon back through England.

Edit: xpost ;)

If you don't mind, I prefer Klarius way, first dow Wash, move galleon and bombard Nott, FC Liz, stay at peace with her.

Thanks for your ideas. There I go again!

I would rather:
Move the galleon.
CF Liz and stay at peace for a turn at least, so KK's units don't go back to pillage England. We don't need to be at war until we want to move the galleon back through England.

Edit: xpost ;)

I'm fine with whatever choice you make/do/take :D

Bravo, jesusin! So far, so perfect!

jesusin, check when the NY musket got built and figure out how close the next one is, to understand your NY red-lining better. W is not in Slavery so your covered there.

Bombard Nottingham and move your galleon to our waters before CF Liz. Then you can stay at CF for a turn or two, which allows you to build 2 more cannons before DOW Liz and still 2 more after, without starving Murky. Cf will also move your cannon and GP-promoted gren back to MurkyLand, so you may be able to red-line NY one turn, Nottingham the rest.

Notice that Grog only upgraded to a mace. That's good actually. That means that the movement of those two KK units in the galleon is now staggered by a turn. If your clever, you can have the cannon capture red-lined NY, then Grog capture red-lined Nottingham. My testing shows this trick you can use: Move the galleon to Murky next turn. Do NOT unload units, even if you have already red-lined NY. The cannon will attack the next turn, but the uprgared-to-gren Grog won't yet, so you can move the galleon to the coast after the cannon leaves and Grog will still be in the galleon. Then when you have Nottingham red-lined move the galleon back in and unload Grog. If my testing is wrong and the cannon doesn't leave 2nd turn, no problem, unload it.

>>> oops, guess you're already playing. <<<

Hey, morpheus11! Still there? Just out of curiousity, do you examine the saves as you follow along?

I feel bad. Report updated. See you this evening.

I feel bad. Report updated. See you this evening.No new save for us? :)

Don't worry jesusin, the text doesn't sound too bad - you have both cities redlined right, that means wash is as good as done, it's just a matter of time for kk to get there. And it sounds like Murky is out of danger and Wash can't send any more units out since he's busy defending. So like I said, it doesn't sound that bad at all.

I can't see the save though (LC I've not viewed the earlier one either in case you are counting views).

Judging from the text I would say no to CF Liz - we have bio, we don't need the trades. Might as well hope kk grows a brain and takes Nott.

Good luck!

Liz won't talk for some time, so no need to decide about a CF.

The problem that our nice attack gren plans didn't work was that the odds were to bad, because GW reinforced. So Grog didn't attack but went pillaging (as attack units like to do, if they can't attack).

There is a strange effect. KK's gren is sitting on our galleon. Did this happen somehow with the declaration on Liz?
If this is still so next turn, we can unload it in Murky and it should attack NY. So you have still the chance to kill GW :).

Looking excellent to me, jesusin! :goodjob:

We had incredibly bad luck with the cannons the turn we were planning to red-line NY and obviously there's a huge difference for KK attacking a cannon or a cat. No one from other teams can accuse us of having any good luck in this SG. I can't remember a single example. ;) Just pure skill. :cool:

Population-wise, we're looking positive, but barely. I have us ending with 180+, needing maybe 175+. Still no need to beat down on Louis, CYrus, or Sal, although klarius probably has one more world war up his sleeve... ;)

jesusin, I think we should send practically everything at WashDC south to JC immediately. We only need a red-line maintenance crew of 2-3 cannons for DC. But maybe send a couple of attack units to London to gift and transport for Nott, just in case.

NY is dead meat. Ground beef. Rotting corpse. But KK's gren will have only about 50% odds against the NY cannon (>=95/100HP) next turn, so you should wait till NY builds another unit. Anyway, WashDC is the urgency, then Rome, not NY and Nott. Luckily, KK isn't there pillaging NY and with its forge, it's producing ~12hpt, so it will have another unit in 1-4 turns, I think, depending on his build choice. I wouldn't risk attacking him with only one unit. We need that pop. We just need NY&Nott captured in the next 10-12 turns.

It's important to be ready for NY each turn, obviously. Keep the galleon/gren on the coastal tile till W gets another unit. Then red-line and unload. One thing you might consider doing immediately is building a couple of chokos for their collateral damage, instead of something stronger, to make it easier to red-line whether he builds a gren, another cannon or a defender.

Anyway, building units in Murky will soon be relatively useless. Toward the end of your turnset, you might start thinking about building something else, like workers, or frigates, if Sal keeps growing his fat @$$. EDIT: Make that wbs for London! It kept its granary and with all that food could actually grow a bit.

There is a strange effect. KK's gren is sitting on our galleon. Did this happen somehow with the declaration on Liz?That's the strange effect of jesusin loading our second warrior from Murky and gifting him in London. :mischief:

T167...Dow Lizz, Gall to London, War gifted, pity no friend to go with him.

Very nice jesusin! I'm proud that you left Murky undefended on Deity :goodjob: Do you feel the thrill of combat? The exhilarating panic when you know everything is at stake when you DoW? Join the warmongers.com and receive a free gift (toy BB-gun) :lol:

I agree to start sending units towards JC asap.

We don't need many more land units, so work boats for London and Nottingham is reasonable.

It's also time to decide how to end this game. Shall we start a massive World War? And then DoW them all? :rotfl:

Looking great, jesusin! :goodjob:

Finally back and can have a look at the save. My suggestion: DOW JC NOW. KK has a bunch of cannons that would immediately come into play, not the least the three cannons with collateral in Antium.

You could also adjust the culture slider to get a border expansion in two turns instead of three. We won't be needing the cash anyway...

Edit: And I agree on sending units to JC now. Just don't forget to dow... ;)

Thank you, people.

As you have pointed out, the worst mistake wasn't failing to build a unit per turn, but aimlessly moving the 2 units that teleported 1SE of London far from London. Anyway, we have a bunch of wounded cannons that want to go on a cruise after so much redlining... and a lot of units in WashDC that want to know how the sun shines in the South...

There I go again!

Good luck!

One final thing: KK is getting some Emancipation unhappiness. Be prepared to trade for Constitution/Democracy soon. Or even now, as that lets us/KK put beakers into Democracy if nobody wants to trade it.

One final thing: KK is getting some Emancipation unhappiness. Be prepared to trade for Constitution/Democracy soon. Or even now, as that lets us/KK put beakers into Democracy if nobody wants to trade it.
I don't think that's still worth a turn of revolt for KK.

Done, save uploaded.

Session turnlog
Thank you, jesusin. Your entry has been recorded and your upload is complete.

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Here are the new details we have recorded.

Reference number: 8616
Game: C-IV SGOTM 07
Your team: Murky Waters
Your name: jesusin
Date submitted: 2008-07-13
Software Version: C4 1.74
Game date: 1110 AD
Player race: China
Firaxis score: 1183
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 04:13:46
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 69:51:33
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: Murky_Waters_SG007_AD1110_01.Civ4SavedGame
Renamed file: Murky_Waters_SG007_AD1110_01.Civ4SavedGame

Right click the Renamed File link above to copy it.
You can then paste it into your team post as the download link for the next player.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1010 AD to 1110 AD:

Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (6.00)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (4.12)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 34 (52/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 34 (18/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 1010 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gottfried Leibniz has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Wilhelm Schickard has been born in Timbuktu!

Turn 162, 1020 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Blaise Pascal has been born in London!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: London has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!

Turn 163, 1030 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.

Turn 164, 1040 AD: You have declared war on Washington!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: You have made peace with Elizabeth!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Musketman (9.00)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 164, 1040 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: (Combat: -10%)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Musketman!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (13.20) vs Washington's Musketman (8.01)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 164, 1040 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (65/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (41/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (17/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Washington's Musketman!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Longbowman (6.60) vs SGOTM07's Grenadier (6.86)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Combat Odds: 68.6%
Turn 164, 1040 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 1040 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Washington's Longbowman!

Turn 165, 1050 AD: You have discovered Biology!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon (12.00) vs SGOTM07's Grenadier (21.60)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Combat Odds: 3.0%
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Washington's Cannon!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon (12.00) vs SGOTM07's Grenadier (15.12)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Combat Odds: 36.2%
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (54/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (38/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (22/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (6/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon has defeated SGOTM07's Grenadier!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon (12.00) vs SGOTM07's Cannon (9.60)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Combat Odds: 84.3%
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 21 (59/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 21 (38/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 21 (17/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Washington's Cannon has defeated SGOTM07's Cannon!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Serfdom!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Saladin adopts Emancipation!

Turn 166, 1060 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of Washington to 0%!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Longbowman (6.30)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Combat Odds: 98.5%
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (11.04) vs Washington's Longbowman (5.41)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Combat Odds: 97.5%
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (78/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (59/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (32/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (64/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (5/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (50/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (11.04) vs Washington's Maceman (5.28)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Maceman is hit for 27 (49/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (78/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Maceman is hit for 27 (22/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (64/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Washington's Maceman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Maceman!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier has been born in Rome!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Rembrandt van Rijn has been born in Mecca!

Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatshepsut has made peace with Catherine!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: You have discovered Economics!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Cannon (6.28)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 97.7%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 25 (51/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 25 (26/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 25 (1/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Cannon is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Cannon!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 73.6%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Grenadier (9.60)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 75.1%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Grenadier!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Longbowman (6.45)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 96.5%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (60/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (34/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (8/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (11.40) vs Washington's Longbowman (5.40)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (46/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (81/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (20/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (13.20) vs Washington's Musketman (6.04)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (32/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (8/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Musketman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (10.68) vs Washington's Musketman (2.99)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 30 (15/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 13 (76/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Musketman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Longbowman (3.12)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 29 (11/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Washington's Longbowman (3.60)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 29 (11/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Washington's Musketman (3.12)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 31 (9/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Washington's Musketman!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: You have declared war on Elizabeth!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate (8.80) vs Elizabeth's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Elizabeth's Caravel is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate has defeated Elizabeth's Caravel!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Deal Canceled: Whale from Kublai Khan
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Julius Caesar's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Representation!

Turn 168, 1080 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Elizabeth
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Louis XIV has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Nottingham to 18%!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (12.00) vs Washington's Musketman (9.90)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 73.4%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Musketman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Washington's Musketman!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (10.20) vs Washington's Grenadier (8.27)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 62.8%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (68/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (51/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 17 (34/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Grenadier!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of Washington to 0%!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Washington's Grenadier (8.27)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 89.2%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Grenadier is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Grenadier!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (9.96) vs Washington's Longbowman (3.96)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 31 (55/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 31 (24/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (10.56) vs Washington's Longbowman (2.88)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 34 (38/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 11 (77/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 34 (4/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington's Longbowman is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Longbowman!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington, Hatshepsut, Elizabeth, Mansa Musa, Saladin, Catherine, Louis XIV
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Washington has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 168, 1080 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Mansa Musa has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Louis XIV has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 168, 1080 AD: You have plundered 12? from the Cottage!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: You have trained a Cannon in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Cannon.

Turn 169, 1090 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hatshepsut, Elizabeth, Saladin
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (11.52) vs Washington's Pikeman (4.13)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 169, 1090 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 12 (84/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Washington's Pikeman is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Washington's Pikeman is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Washington's Pikeman is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Washington's Pikeman is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Washington's Pikeman!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Nottingham to 12%!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Nottingham to 6%!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Longbowman (6.66)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Combat Odds: 98.1%
Turn 169, 1090 AD: (Plot Defense: +6%)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 14 (16/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Elizabeth's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 169, 1090 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Longbowman!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of New York to 0%!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Washington has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: New York has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: The American Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Mansa Musa for Open Borders
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Murkyopolis's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 169, 1090 AD: Your land area: 224 (40.43%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 170, 1100 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 1051 gold available for trade
Turn 170, 1100 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Elizabeth's Pikeman (5.00)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 170, 1100 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Elizabeth's Pikeman is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 170, 1100 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Pikeman!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: You have declared war on Julius Caesar!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Rome to 90%!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: The borders of Murkyopolis have expanded!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Carl Friedrich Gauss has been born in Susa!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Catherine adopts Free Market!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: Your land area: 233 (42.06%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 171, 1110 AD: Cyrus has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 171, 1110 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 40 gold per turn available for trade

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

Report updated here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7028585&postcount=3596

Autolog

Murkyopolis begins: Galleon (1 turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
While attacking in Mongolian territory at York, Cannon defeats (10.32/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking in the wild at York, Grenadier defeats (10.68/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Cannon promoted: Combat I
Cannon promoted: Medic I
Murkyopolis finishes: Galleon

Turn 162/460 (1020 AD) [13-Jul-2008 08:30:28]
Galleon promoted: Combat I
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 163/460 (1030 AD) [13-Jul-2008 08:58:15]
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon

Turn 164/460 (1040 AD) [13-Jul-2008 09:24:49]
SGOTM07/Kublai Khan(China) declares war on Washington(America)
SGOTM07/Kublai Khan(China) and Elizabeth(England) have signed a peace treaty
While attacking in Mongolian territory at Bombay, Cannon defeats (1.80/12): American Musketman (Prob Victory: 78.3%)
While attacking in Mongolian territory at Bombay, Grenadier defeats (6.24/12): American Musketman (Prob Victory: 96.0%)
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon
While defending in American territory at Bombay, Grenadier defeats (2.40/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 31.4%)
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 165/460 (1050 AD) [13-Jul-2008 11:19:11]
Tech learned: Biology
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon
While defending in Chinese territory at New York, Grenadier defeats (8.40/12): American Cannon (Prob Victory: 97.0%)
While defending in American territory at New York, Grenadier loses to: American Cannon (6.24/12) (Prob Victory: 63.8%)
While defending in American territory at New York, Cannon loses to: American Cannon (1.20/12) (Prob Victory: 15.7%)
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Louis XIV(France), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Theocracy' to 'Organized Religion'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Slavery' to 'Emancipation'

Turn 166/460 (1060 AD) [13-Jul-2008 11:44:41]
Research begun: Replaceable Parts (10 Turns)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Chinese territory at New York, Cannon defeats (5.28/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 98.5%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Chinese territory at New York, Cannon defeats (6.00/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 97.5%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Chinese territory at New York, Cannon defeats (7.68/12): American Maceman (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Hatshepsut(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 167/460 (1070 AD) [13-Jul-2008 12:13:39]
Hatshepsut(Egypt) and Catherine(Russia) have signed a peace treaty
Tech learned: Economics
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Chinese territory at New York, Cannon defeats (10.20/12): American Cannon (Prob Victory: 97.7%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (7.92/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 73.6%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (7.92/12): American Grenadier (Prob Victory: 75.1%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (1.20/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 96.5%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (9.72/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (10.08/12): American Musketman (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (9.12/12): American Musketman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (12.00/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Grenadier defeats (8.88/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): American Musketman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
SGOTM07/Kublai Khan(China) declares war on Elizabeth(England)
While attacking on the high seas near London, Frigate defeats (7.04/8): English Caravel (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Hatshepsut(Egypt), from 'Annoyed' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'

Turn 168/460 (1080 AD) [13-Jul-2008 12:35:59]
While attacking in Chinese territory at Murkyopolis, Grenadier defeats (1.20/12): American Musketman (Prob Victory: 73.4%)
While attacking in Chinese territory at New York, Cannon defeats (4.08/12): American Grenadier (Prob Victory: 62.8%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (6.24/12): American Grenadier (Prob Victory: 89.2%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider III
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (9.96/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider III
Cannon promoted: City Raider III
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (9.24/12): American Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Grenadier promoted: Medic I
Murkyopolis begins: Cannon (2 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Cannon
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 169/460 (1090 AD) [13-Jul-2008 18:40:35]
While attacking in American territory at Washington, Cannon defeats (10.08/12): American Pikeman (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Chinese territory at Nottingham, Cannon defeats (1.92/12): English Longbowman (Prob Victory: 98.1%)
Grenadier promoted: Combat I
Cannon promoted: City Raider III
Murkyopolis begins: Grenadier (2 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Grenadier
American Empire has been eliminated
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Louis XIV(France), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 170/460 (1100 AD) [13-Jul-2008 18:59:52]
Murkyopolis begins: Work Boat (1 turns)
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Chinese territory at Nottingham, Cannon defeats (10.44/12): English Pikeman (Prob Victory: 99.6%)
SGOTM07/Kublai Khan(China) declares war on Julius Caesar(Rome)
Murkyopolis's borders expand
Murkyopolis finishes: Work Boat
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) from 'Theocracy' to 'Organized Religion'
Civics Change: Catherine(Russia) from 'Decentralization' to 'Free Market'

Turn 171/460 (1110 AD) [13-Jul-2008 19:40:16]
Murkyopolis begins: Work Boat (1 turns)

Awesome play, jesusin! :goodjob:

This is looking very good indeed. We even have the option of razing Nottingham if it turns out that we won't need it. klarius, are you ready to wrap this up for us?

Excellent jesusin! Could you please give us your educated guess why JC is sending his stack east?! "11 JC units in Rome, 10 went 3E"

Please note everyone that we need to exceed the domination limit:

Turn 170, 1100 AD: Your land area: 233 (42.06%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

We thus need 283 tiles.

Kill Nottingham now! Pronto! London is starving!! We will loose more pop than gain by having KK to capture it :cry:

Kill Nottingham now! Pronto! London is starving!! We will loose more pop than gain by having KK to capture it :cry:

London is still revolting, isn't it? And will soon have our WBs.

London is still revolting, isn't it? And will soon have our WBs.
No it's not. And the WBs are too late to avoid starving. OTOH, it should be only one pop we lose in London.

Fantastic job, jesusin! Maybe you missed your true calling???

London is still revolting, isn't it? And will soon have our WBs.London is out of revolt already and will lose pop. Erkon is right. Kill Nottingham now and London won't lose any more pop. Nott's down to pop3 and we'll lose another. Same as starving London. The wbs are a few turns late.

I figure we'll have 182 without any new growth. Corresponding pop required: 178.

So it looks like we just wait for WashDC's borders to expand and it's over. (After capturing Rome, of course.) I assume klarius will wrap this up tomorrow or Tuesday at the latest, right Frederiksburg? :p

And no more wars, so KK can start working food tiles instead of starving his cities.

With that JC stack and KK liable to move his cannons out of Antium, for once I"m glad KK moves last. :lol:

No it's not. And the WBs are too late to avoid starving. OTOH, it should be only one pop we lose in London.London has max 19f at pop10 so it goes to pop9 for sure. London @ pop11 = London+Nott @ pop9+pop2. Same either way, unless London keeps on starving, which is likely until we kill of Liz, because KK will keep working specialists to counteract Liz's culture.

Off with her head!

Off with her head!

When you put it that way I have to agree. :lol:
So the earliest we can win is in 6t when Wash borders expand. And we can have the first set of units next to Rome in 4t. Is there anything we can do to speed up KK, other than razing Nott and telling him to attack Rome? If not I foresee a quite simple PPP... :)

London has max 19f at pop10 so it goes to pop9 for sure. London @ pop11 = London+Nott @ pop9+pop2. Same either way, unless London keeps on starving, which is likely until we kill of Liz, because KK will keep working specialists to counteract Liz's culture.

Off with her head!
KK will switch off the specialists to not lose pop. But, there is also still an English caravel down by Karakorum, so:

Off with her head!

Other plans:
Move stuff to Rome. Big attack in 5 turns.
Surplus troops to KK, to make sure he has still something to attack after the slaughter near Antium.

Acquire clams again (KK has now his own, but we can also get one from Cyrus) and build an aqueduct, to also grow Murky a pop still.

Our existing frigates move towards Mecca, in case we still try for some starvation siege (not likely to be effective, but who knows). Probably give steel around :eek:, maybe drydocks and/or iron works will cost somebody pop.

Set Cathy on JC for fun and to cancel her DP.

And cancel this crabs trade to Cyrus, ASAP. He can eat marble, if we should still want his money.

Got it and intend to play tomorrow evening.

klarius, your PPP looks good. Please win in 6 turns. :D

EDIT: Will you gift all units to KK at the end to show the power drop? Or DoW everyone on the map? Or both? :please:

klarius, your PPP looks good. Please win in 6 turns. :D

EDIT: Will you gift all units to KK at the end to show the power drop? Or DoW everyone on the map? Or both? :please:
Well, what I really would like to do is pop-rush to reduce our score. But sadly :cry: we cannot afford the population loss ;).

PPP looks good to me. Just make sure you farm that useless village Gnejs kept for us... :lol:

PPP looks good to me. Just make sure you farm that useless village Gnejs kept for us... :lol:

:p
Can our workers road 1NE of Besh soon enough to make a difference?

PPP is fine. Bring home the gold!

Good playing jesusin :goodjob: Turned out just fine, didn't it?

Gnejs, on that 100 euros you now owe me, I would prefer that you just use it to do something special with your kids. Whatever, but for example, take them to the Dunk-Your-Daddy event at the fair. You know, the one where they get to throw balls at the target and if they hit it, the bench you're sitting on gives way and you fall into the water... ;)

They'd love it.

Very nice jesusin! I'm proud that you left Murky undefended on Deity :goodjob: Do you feel the thrill of combat? The exhilarating panic when you know everything is at stake when you DoW? Join the warmongers.com and receive a free gift (toy BB-gun) :lol:


No, I didn't feel any thrill. I was just thinking: I am attacking with a cannon at 95% odd, that's a 5% chance of losing a 100hammer cannon. On average, I am losing 5 hammers just because of this attack... You know, the type of things a peacemonger thinks.

PPP is fine. Bring home the gold!

Good playing jesusin :goodjob: Turned out just fine, didn't it?

Well, I can't help thinking that with perfect play I could have captured (not razed) Nott too in my turnset. It just would have required filling up the cruise with 3 units in each trip back.

Anyway, with a bit of luck Nott won't have any impact on the final date.

No, I didn't feel any thrill. I was just thinking: I am attacking with a cannon at 95% odd, that's a 5% chance of losing a 100hammer cannon. On average, I am losing 5 hammers just because of this attack... You know, the type of things a peacemonger thinks.More like the kinds of things an accoutant thinks about. :lol:

Meanwhile, a serious builder, like a Pharoah building the Pyramids, thinks I'll use 1 axe to kill those two warriors and in the end I have 1 axe + 1 slave + 1 pop3 city... :eek:

More like the kinds of things an accoutant thinks about. :lol:

Meanwhile, a serious builder, like a Pharoah building the Pyramids, thinks I'll use 1 axe to kill those two warriors and in the end I have 1 axe + 1 slave + 1 pop3 city... :eek:

That's the thrill of optimization! Oh, the joys of winning a cultural game the very same turn you predicted 100 turn before! Oh, the joys of winning that cultural game 1 turn sooner than expected because of a last minute genial idea (starving, anyone?)!
One of these days I'll show you my 160KB excel cultural spreadsheet and you'll faint in pleasure!

I really serious builder will think he invested X hammers in an Axe (how many hammers are needed for units anyway? I never build anything but police warriors!) and end up having a useless liability called Axe, a 60 hammers Worker, a 100 hammers settler already moved and settled in the wrong tile, some 25 free city-turns, some gold in the treasury from capturing, some negative modifiers in the F4 screen... realise the trade is too good for the investment made, abandon the game and start playing the next difficulty level.:D

and settled in the wrong tileI suspect a lot of people think the Pyramids should have been built somewhere else, too, but out there in the desert, they might last forever. :p

Gnejs, on that 100 euros you now owe me, I would prefer that you just use it to do something special with your kids. Whatever, but for example, take them to the Dunk-Your-Daddy event at the fair. You know, the one where they get to throw balls at the target and if they hit it, the bench you're sitting on gives way and you fall into the water... ;)

They'd love it.

Does it gall you so much that I was right? :lol:

I hope you are busy ironing that note for me by now. Remember, it has to be in perfect condition so keep working. ;)

Does it gall you so much that I was right? :lol:I pm'ed Erkon and for the life of him, he couldn't remember a single instance of you being right in the last three SGs. Then I finally remembered that you insisted on researching Biology. Now that doesn't gall me. In fact, thank goodness. That alone might might be worth a medal. Who knows how many turns that'll save us... :goodjob:

I pm'ed Erkon and for the life of him, he couldn't remember a single instance of you being right in the last three SGs. Then I finally remembered that you insisted on researching Biology. Now that doesn't gall me. In fact, thank goodness. That alone might might be worth a medal. Who knows how many turns that'll save us... :goodjob:

Yup. That is an area for improvement - we as a team should have realized earlier (as soon as we fully saw the other continent) that population was definitely going to be a concern. But I think since it never was an issue in our test games it never occurred to us that it might actually be more significant than getting enough tiles. Or at least if it did, I don't recall anyone making the argument that bio was an absolute necessity as opposed to a nice-to-have when we were discussing what to research after steel. We all really should have know at the time that it was a no-brainer.

Anyway food for thought for the next game.

I pm'ed Erkon and for the life of him, he couldn't remember a single instance of you being right in the last three SGs. Then I finally remembered that you insisted on researching Biology. Now that doesn't gall me. In fact, thank goodness. That alone might might be worth a medal. Who knows how many turns that'll save us... :goodjob:

I am not surprised. Excessive beer intake usually has that effect on him. Funnily enough, it makes him remember all his own actions in the most glorifying details while it for some unknown reason messes with the memories of the other witnesses... :lol:

If you go Fred first you will end up in the same situation as you are with Asoka now, only several turns later and with three tiles of culture around Kyoto. Asoka will still be around in 20 turns from now...


And Asoka will improve the rice even if we set him on Alex on T134. I am not sure it is a good idea to set him on Fred later. That will only cause him to have lots of units in the Hamburg-Kyoto area at the wrong time.

It took 23 turns to conquer India, and you know all too well what happened at Kyoto. :)

Obviously I am wrong all the time too. This is one of the things we do very well as a team, being wrong about things. Just not the same things at the same time. :lol:

Yup. That is an area for improvement - we as a team should have realized earlier (as soon as we fully saw the other continent) that population was definitely going to be a concern. But I think since it never was an issue in our test games it never occurred to us that it might actually be more significant than getting enough tiles. Or at least if it did, I don't recall anyone making the argument that bio was an absolute necessity as opposed to a nice-to-have when we were discussing what to research after steel. We all really should have know at the time that it was a no-brainer.

Anyway food for thought for the next game.I was monitoring the population from early on and it looked okay. What changed my view later on were two things: 1) In my testing, conquered cities wit lots of population were losing 2pop at conquer, and 2) the small map and vast culture of each AI caused a lot more starvation than I imagined.

Obviously I am wrong all the time too. This is one of the things we do very well as a team, being wrong about things. Just not the same things at the same time. :lol:Rather than right or wrong, I prefer to think of us having lots of ideas and bouncing them around till we come up with (hopefully) the most effective combination. Our team has great synergy, imo.

Actually, your village was a very effective idea. It not only produced a few (inconsequential) beakers, but also earned me 100 euros. Good combination. Great synergy! :D

...Rather than right or wrong, I prefer to think of us having lots of ideas and bouncing them around till we come up with (hopefully) the most effective combination. Our team has great synergy, imo.

Actually, your village was a very effective idea. It not only produced a few (inconsequential) beakers, but also earned me 100 euros. Good combination. Great synergy! :D

Yep, it's enough if one of us spot something vital, and manages to convince the rest of the team that it is vital :lol:

Biology in 5 turns from T161...

Yep, it's enough if one of us spot something vital, and manages to convince the rest of the team that it is vital :lol:

Biology in 5 turns from T161...Yes, this is maybe the most important aspect. People having ideas, being willing to consider other ideas, and it generally not being too hard to convince the others, when it is vital.

luck...

Good luck, klarius! Looking forward to the fall of Rome. :)

klarius, please remember to enable both the pop-limit notice and the land-limit notice.

For everyones information: The current Hall of Fame for war progress is:

LC: -1 (Cuzco => JC & Liza)
klarius: +1 (Antium => KK)
Gnejs: +2 (Berlin & Madrid => KK)
Erkon: +3 (Kyoto => Asoka; Cuzco, Bombay, Delhi, York => KK)
FiveAces: +4 (Spara, Hamburg, Athens, Kyoto => KK)
jesusin: +4 (Tiwanaku, London, Washington, New York => KK)

Seams we have a tie between the two peacemongers! :rotfl:

It's done. I could afford to raze Rome in the end, but hair raising tight (283 tiles, 41.4% pop ).
KK was still occupied with pillaging.
We won T177 1170AD.

Reference number:8626
Game:C-IV SGOTM 07
]Your team:Murky Waters
Your name:klarius
Date submitted:2008-07-14
Game date:1170 AD
Player race:China
Firaxis score:1256
Session time played (hh:mm:ss):00:01:05
Total time played (hh:mm:ss):71:34:21
Game status:Domination Victory for China

Turn log:
T171:
Head off for Liz.
Move troops south.
Get clams from Cyrus for copper.
Sell steel to Sal, Cyrus and Hatty. Acquire the rest of RP parts in the deal.
Set research on full steam rifling. Hopefully that will not complete, but you never know.
Catherine against JC for chemistry.
Build aqueduct in 2 turns. The second wb is anyway late at London and by that we will grow in 6 turns.
I get all surplus resources from KK, so he doesn't ask me all the time.


T172:
KK has slaugtered JC's big stack. But Beshbalik is starving, because of a pike and a caravel.
Further moving.
I do the nono. I swap biology for rifling with Hatty.
We look pretty good for pop currently and 2 more pop for Hatty shouldn't be the problem.
Gift KK 1000g, so he has no trouble upgrading.


T173:
First troops enter Roman land. Gift the rest to KK.
Beshbalik starved, but other cities are growing.
KK has now rifles everywhere.

T174:
We are at Rome, but KK is nowhere to be seen.

T175:
Defenses at Rome are down. KK is nowhere.
Hmm, razing Rome would get us to over 41%, but Sal would get over 17%.
Land is OK with Washington expanded, which should happen soon after resistance ends.
DoW Sal and move in frigates. They will probably not survive.
Let Louis declare on Sal.
Bribe Cathy off JC and also set her on Sal.

T176:
New calculation with 2 more pop for us shows Sal staying under 17%.
Washington coming out of resistance should get us the land.
Raze Rome.

T177:
We win. with 41.4% pop (Sal 16.7%) and 51.08% (283 tiles) land.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 1110 AD to 1160 AD:

Turn 171, 1110 AD: Mansa Musa has 140 gold available for trade
Turn 171, 1110 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (10.44) vs Elizabeth's Catapult (3.44)
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 171, 1110 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 171, 1110 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 11 (76/100HP)
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Elizabeth's Catapult is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 171, 1110 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Elizabeth's Catapult!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have captured Nottingham!!!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have pillaged 84 ? from the destruction of Nottingham!!!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: The English Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have discovered Divine Right!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Catherine has declared war on Julius Caesar!

Turn 172, 1120 AD: You have discovered Rifling!

Turn 173, 1130 AD: Mansa Musa has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Michael Faraday has been born in Thebes!

Turn 174, 1140 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Rome to 50%!
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Julius Caesar's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 174, 1140 AD: Your land area: 261 (47.11%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 175, 1150 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Rome to 40%!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of Rome to 20%!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Your Cannon has reduced the defenses of Rome to 0%!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Deal Canceled: Stone to Saladin for Gold Per Turn (6)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: You have declared war on Saladin!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: You have plundered 2? from the Fishing Boats!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Louis XIV has declared war on Saladin!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Catherine has made peace with Julius Caesar!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman (9.60) vs SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman has defeated SGOTM07's Grenadier!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: While defending, your Grenadier was destroyed by a Roman Maceman!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate (8.80) vs SGOTM07's Frigate (7.74)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Combat Odds: 70.1%
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 20 (68/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 20 (48/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 20 (28/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 20 (8/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate has defeated SGOTM07's Frigate!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: While defending, your Frigate was destroyed by a Arabian Frigate!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate (8.00) vs SGOTM07's Galleon (4.40)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Galleon is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Galleon is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Galleon is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Galleon is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate has defeated SGOTM07's Galleon!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: While defending, your Galleon was destroyed by a Arabian Frigate!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate (8.00) vs SGOTM07's Frigate (9.60)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Combat Odds: 27.2%
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: SGOTM07's Frigate is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Saladin's Frigate has defeated SGOTM07's Frigate!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: While defending, your Frigate was destroyed by a Arabian Frigate!
Turn 175, 1150 AD: Your land area: 261 (47.11%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 176, 1160 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Saladin
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07/Kublai Khan has 9 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Saladin has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 93.1%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (5.71)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (7 Units)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (6.45)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 96.5%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (6 Units)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 26 (60/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 26 (34/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 26 (8/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (3.45)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (5 Units)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 32 (40/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 32 (8/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (2.78)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (4 Units)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 34 (24/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Julius Caesar's Crossbowman (2.64)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Crossbowman is hit for 32 (12/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Crossbowman is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Crossbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Crossbowman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (9.24) vs Julius Caesar's Maceman (2.20)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 32 (8/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Maceman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon (12.00) vs Julius Caesar's Pikeman (2.52)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Pikeman is hit for 32 (8/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Pikeman is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Cannon has defeated Julius Caesar's Pikeman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Julius Caesar's Catapult (2.00)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 37 (3/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Julius Caesar's Catapult!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier (14.40) vs Julius Caesar's Maceman (0.41)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 1160 AD: SGOTM07's Grenadier has defeated Julius Caesar's Maceman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 176, 1160 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 176, 1160 AD: You have captured Rome!!!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: You have pillaged 222 ? from the destruction of Rome!!!
Turn 176, 1160 AD: Your land area: 261 (47.11%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).
Turn 176, 1160 AD: The Roman Civilization has been destroyed!!!

Bravo, klarius!!!

Victory is ours!!!

WTG klarius!!! And WTG team!

Pray tell LC, if Erkon hadn't worked the village and we had finished Bio one turn later, would we still have won the same turn?

Good thing we won this turn. Did you see those frigates Sal had coming at us? This was about to get bloody. Typical for historians to end the story right before the happy ending becomes unhappy... ;)

Pray tell LC, if Erkon hadn't worked the village and we had finished Bio one turn later, would we still have won the same turn?Of course we would have. Doubter. klarius, I wouldn't take that insult lying down if I were you.

klarius had plenty of options. Murky City (1f short of pop16), for example, could have have built workers and farmed a couple of tiles. The limiting factor was WashDC was coming out of resistance. Not klarius'
incompetence. :p

Nice try though, Gnejs. :goodjob: ;)

Great play, klarius!

And great play team! Very nice experience :goodjob:

You are now free to read the other threads, but please wait to post in those who have won until the staff has acknowledged our victory.

EDIT:
Note to all lurkers: you are encouraged to post in this thread. Please ask us any questions regarding our play and don't be shy to praise the Captain.

Okay, now it's off to see why XTeam's and Misfits' power graphs skyrocketed. I'm curious yellow.

We would have had plenty of pop with Rome. KK might have taken it one turn later. Some troops where coming now. Just the recalculation showed that we don't need Washington expanded, but out of resistance was enough and could win this turn.
Also note the accidental power move to give biology to Hatty. She helped keeping Sal below 17% pop, by growing Memphis.

Okay, now it's off to see why XTeam's and Misfits' power graphs skyrocketed. I'm curious yellow.

Please post your findings here. Mrs Gnejs has forcefully wrestled the computer from me and I am once again stuck with my phone for browsing. :(
Please also have a look at the three teams that can still beat us.

Please post your findings here. Mrs Gnejs has forcefully wrestled the computer from me and I am once again stuck with my phone for browsing. :(
Please also have a look at the three teams that can still beat us.
Well the power is artillery.
Misfits won T197. Xteam T205.

The only ones earnestly looking to attack our gold are CRC. If they manage to get the AIs in line, they will win an early peaceful diplomatic victory.

Well played Murky Waters.

Nice power drop. It's quite funny, three high power teams all plunged in the end.

Well played, Murky Waters :goodjob:

Go and see what the others are up to :)

Mad Professor has written a summary here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7007151&postcount=1337)

EDIT: Jimmy Thunder has another one here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7030297&postcount=1366).

EDIT2: JerichoHill has one here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7033048&postcount=1276)

EDIT3: namliaM has one here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7033138&postcount=1278)

The only ones earnestly looking to attack our gold are CRC. If they manage to get the AIs in line, they will win an early peaceful diplomatic victory.Have you made a determination on how early is possible for them at this point?

Have you made a determination on how early is possible for them at this point?
Well their current research rate and the existing GSs would allow MM in about 50 turns (~T178). They have still potential to speed this up by population growth and can still get another GS for electricity and maybe a GA for MM. They have a GE and forests so can build UN in one turn.
A T176 victory is difficult and needs some luck also, but I don't think it's impossible.

A T176 victory is difficult and needs some luck also, but I don't think it's impossible.In that case, the big question is, what turns does the 4-turn election cycle fall on? If they're really lucky, it's T175. Is it possible for it to fall on an odd turn number? That would be funny if it's T176 and we tied. That would be cool. Tied for gold.

You should be able to build the UN in 1 turn with just a GE. The election cycle occurs the turn the UN is built for General Secretary. Then its 4-5 turns for the election.

And there, you better hope you get it on first ballot, because its at least 10 turns until you can get another shot.

Well done Murky Waters, another great SGOTM for your team!

Some insightful reading hidden in those three-thousand-six-hundred-and-sixty-six posts. :)

I was most impressed by how many cities KK had already taken by the time you signed your PA. Our conquest/military phase began too late... we got our PA on turn 134 and Asoka still only had his initial 2 cities.

I guess I learnt if you are getting combat odds of 99% (i.e. artillery blitzing!) on deity then you are playing too conservatively!

Congrats Murkey Waters! That was well played.

In that case, the big question is, what turns does the 4-turn election cycle fall on? If they're really lucky, it's T175. Is it possible for it to fall on an odd turn number? That would be funny if it's T176 and we tied. That would be cool. Tied for gold.
In fact the vote is always triggered on turns divisible by 4.
I think the winning turn is then 2 turns later, which could get them a nice T178 win :lol:.

An impressive performance MW. Well done.:goodjob:

Now we (XTeam) just have to hope for CRC to have some bad luck (and a couple of other teams to not pull of any star performances between now and when they finish) and we might snatch a bronze. Unlikely though - there have been some very good games played this time. Very good indeed.

Well done Murky Waters, another great SGOTM for your team!

Some insightful reading hidden in those three-thousand-six-hundred-and-sixty-six posts. :)

I was most impressed by how many cities KK had already taken by the time you signed your PA. Our conquest/military phase began too late... we got our PA on turn 134 and Asoka still only had his initial 2 cities.

I guess I learnt if you are getting combat odds of 99% (i.e. artillery blitzing!) on deity then you are playing too conservatively!

Yes JT, but the artillery blitz was loads of fun though was it not? I just love watching early artillery kick a** :devil:

Congratulations on another very well played game! :goodjob:

A lot to read because there is much to learn. :thanx:

In fact the vote is always triggered on turns divisible by 4.
I think the winning turn is then 2 turns later, which could get them a nice T178 win :lol:.That's exactly it. I played CRC's save to T178. Managed to get the UN on T172, in time for the elections (w/o a GA, btw--it's not needed). Got elected. Had a vote on T177, T178 I had 295 of the 300 required votes, but I wasn't working that hard on that part of it, mostly just hitting enter.

I can say, though, that they have both surprises and difficulties in store. The trading disasters they just committed (see CRC thread) can be overcome, I think. But just looking at their current save, you can see that both Hatty and Sal are running Theocracy, so that poses a problem for conversion to Judaism. There is also a surprise that the discerning eye can detect. :scan:

Bottom line, they're not going to beat us and frankly speaking, I don't think they'll medal. They could finish on T178, but that will take phenomenally brilliant play, judging from my testing.

Funny, I tested their game, and got the same result as you, but with 296 votes.

Good work, MW! :beer:

Now... we watch! :eek:

Pray tell LC, if Erkon hadn't worked the village and we had finished Bio one turn later, would we still have won the same turn?Okay, Gnejs, I decided to stop messing with you and check this out for real. Starting with the T164 save, I was getting ready to slow down Biology to T167 and see if we still win. I had to move the research slider all the way down to 40% to make Biology complete in 3 turns instead of 2. Wait a minute, I said, that's a lot of beakers. Erkon only gained us 9bpt for two or maybe three turns working the village. Sure enough, we were 197:science: over to complete Biology in 2 turns. Evidently, KK jacked up his research when we stopped borrowing his money. Anyway, all joking aside, your village didn't matter for T166 Biology. Of course, lost in all this is that we didn't need that tile as a workshop either, did we? So leaving it as a village was the right thing to do, just in case. ;)

Them's the facts.

Well, I (and others) ignored Smurkz, because they planned their victory to be pretty late. Research wise they can do similar to CRC, just they don't think they have the votes then and are deliberately delaying research :eek:.
As they noted that we are finished, they are re-eveluating, if they can do faster.

Congratulations, Murky Waters :goodjob:


I think I'll try to read your 'little' thread again (but I also tried that for SGOTM06, and failed :rolleyes:)

Also note the accidental power move to give biology to Hatty. She helped keeping Sal below 17% pop, by growing Memphis.

Ug, I hate jumping points. This is counterintuitive.

Okay, Gnejs, I decided to stop messing with you and check this out for real. Starting with the T164 save, I was getting ready to slow down Biology to T167 and see if we still win. I had to move the research slider all the way down to 40% to make Biology complete in 3 turns instead of 2. Wait a minute, I said, that's a lot of beakers. Erkon only gained us 9bpt for two or maybe three turns working the village. Sure enough, we were 197:science: over to complete Biology in 2 turns. Evidently, KK jacked up his research when we stopped borrowing his money. Anyway, all joking aside, your village didn't matter for T166 Biology. Of course, lost in all this is that we didn't need that tile as a workshop either, did we? So leaving it as a village was the right thing to do, just in case. ;)

Them's the facts.

Yes, Erkon hasn't been entirely honest with you. But I knew you would spot KK's change of research slider eventually. :lol:

Yes, Erkon hasn't been entirely honest with you. But I knew you would spot KK's change of research slider eventually. :lol:

What?!?!?!?! :gripe: Are you badmouthing me?! :mad: I am Honesty incarnate, the Foundation of Truth. :smug: I can't help if you don't read my reports :cool:

Turn set report.
...
T154
... KK is researching at 50% and has 304 gold (+29 gpt)
T155
... KK is researching at 60% (+18 gpt). We will get biology in 12 turns.
T160
... KK is running 70% research.

Hey, Gnejs, think you found a button there? :lol:

Great job guys!

I will probably have questions, just have some reading to do... :lol:

I think the main difference between our games was that you got the war going earlier and could key the PA on communism (we actually had to wait 3-4 turns after com for the PA to be accepted and did not beeline...). But more read will tell better.

Edit: I just noticed that namliaM had the same thing poited out in our thread, I guess it makes it so :lol:

And, yes of course: Great job captain!

Ok, I have a very simple question for the MW team...

How many "different" spreadsheets did you use for this game? I know there are quite a few hidden in the almost 4000 posts, but how many did you end up using?

Also, are these spreadsheets unique for this game, or are they around from other games?

Ug, I hate jumping points. This is counterintuitive.Seems pretty intuitive to me. The overall number decreases by .23% (pop436>pop435), while the partial number increases by 2.5% (41%>42%), so obviously there's a signicant change. For T177, with Sal at pop74, the 16-to-17% jump point occurred at pop435/436. (74/17%=435.3)

minimum pop required above jump pt = 435*FLOOR(17.01%+25%) = 183
min pop req'd just under jump point = 436*FLOOR(16.97%+25%) = 179

Change in the population of our continent during klarius' turnset: -4
Change in Sal's population during klarius' turnset: +3
World population at start of klarius' turnset: 437
So ignoring other world population growth or shrinkage, we have 437-4+3=436, and we just under the bad jump point, although we actually had the required 183 anyway.

The final world pop turned out to be 442, so evidently other AIs grew by a total of pop6. Hatty grew by pop3 during that time, but actually Biology only contributed pop1 of that, because Memphis had the only farms and it grew pop1.

Ok, I have a very simple question for the MW team...

How many "different" spreadsheets did you use for this game? I know there are quite a few hidden in the almost 4000 posts, but how many did you end up using?

Also, are these spreadsheets unique for this game, or are they around from other games?

I know of two

Tech value depending on number of AI's by klarius (both before and after the permanent alliance)
Hidden relation modifiers by klarius who monitored the inter-AI relations.


The first can be reused (may require modifications :confused:) while the second is specific to this game.

I think LC had one too, but can't find it.

Ok, I have a very simple question for the MW team...

How many "different" spreadsheets did you use for this game? I know there are quite a few hidden in the almost 4000 posts, but how many did you end up using?

Also, are these spreadsheets unique for this game, or are they around from other games?

I made up a simple one for myself when I was trying to figure out how I was going to build all that stuff in one turn each, mainly to make sure I could do it but also to see if there were any alternates to LC Gnejs and klarius's versions of the queue.

I think LC had one too, but can't find it.Nope. I didn't spread any sheet around this time.

This is for you Murky, and X-Team from Fifth Element.

I loved how 5th element is talking about X-Team and Murky, and completely missing that we Misfits are also done!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7037275&postcount=1370

From the looks of the graphs of both Murky and X-Team, I believe only X-Team could have won, but I don't think so. The high score is fine, but the heavy loss of power is likely a quick defeat.
Anyhow, Blubmuz go ahead and play, let's see where we end up.I would see how much producing Research is actually gaining us versus completing IW, The Internet, Factory, Nuke Plant, 3G, or a SS part.
I favor completing the Factory, IW, TI, 3G or SS.
How much will the IW and Factory cost us in Health? Will we actually lose Pop or just grow very slow. Slow/no growth is not a problem for me this close to the end.

Well, you power drop hides behind Xteams graph :D.

My final conclusion is that the basic difference between us and other teams is the plank. They don't have one. So, for example, someone builds the Globe Theatre in 4 turns and doesn't have to walk the plank. :crazyeye:

How is that possible? :lol:

I know of two

Tech value depending on number of AI's by klarius (both before and after the permanent alliance)
Hidden relation modifiers by klarius who monitored the inter-AI relations.


The first can be reused (may require modifications :confused:) while the second is specific to this game.

I think LC had one too, but can't find it.

I'd like to see the second one. I put one together for the Xteam and I'd like to compare what he tracked.

Well here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=181554&d=1214758696) is he latest update (didn't really care towards the end :D).

My final conclusion is that the basic difference between us and other teams is the plank. They don't have one. So, for example, someone builds the Globe Theatre in 4 turns and doesn't have to walk the plank. :crazyeye:

How is that possible? :lol:

Four turns! :cry: Man, that deserves a careenage :lol: We almost lynched jesusin for building a cannon in two turns :crazyeye:

Four turns! :cry: Man, that deserves a careenage :lol: We almost lynched jesusin for building a cannon in two turns :crazyeye:Hey! What's the big idea, teaching me English? :goodjob:

Hey! What's the big idea, teaching me English? :goodjob:

Hey, man! That's MY role!
By the way, I almost forgot my daily exercises:

Make, do, make, do, make, do, make, do, make, do
britting sick, britting sick, britting sick, britting sick, britting sick
peak, peak, peak, peak, peak
gal=chick, gal=chick, gal=chick, gal=chick, gal=chick

Great job guys!

I will probably have questions, just have some reading to do... :lol:

And, yes of course: Great job captain! Ah ha! Clearly you haven't read the thread yet. :lol:I think the main difference between our games was that you got the war going earlier and could key the PA on communism (we actually had to wait 3-4 turns after com for the PA to be accepted and did not beeline...). But more read will tell better. I think we probably had 80-90 turns of common war with KK, before PA! :eek: In fact, we were reluctant to allow him any turns of peace, just to make sure he didn't up and DoW us.

I've been playing from the save we got alpha on some. I think the main issue we had was the Washington attack. It seems no matter what he attacks it's just a matter of when. So I'm trying to restart at 4000BC to see if it's a random thing and build a few more troops for dissuasion. The critical issue soon becomes how to pay for a big army. The land isn't setup so well to accommodate cottages for an early army.


Culdeus plans to play next.
Is this according to the game rules? I'd say they are going to be disqualified for reloading.

Should we act (through an admin maybe) to avoid their forfeit?

Culdeus plans to play next.
Is this according to the game rules? I'd say they are going to be disqualified for reloading.

Should we act (through an admin maybe) to avoid their forfeit?

Spotted that too. That would definitely not be within the rules. I wouldn't make an issue of it though, they are not going to get any awards and I think some of the players have already given up on their game and jumpstarted on the post-game analysis.

My final conclusion is that the basic difference between us and other teams is the plank. They don't have one. So, for example, someone builds the Globe Theatre in 4 turns and doesn't have to walk the plank. :crazyeye:

How is that possible? :lol:

Maybe it is time to sum up our good and bad moves in this game. Let me try first with the power moves and strong aspects:


Going for Alpha/commerce and not Pyramids/specialists. It took a bunch of test games before you guys finally convinced me that this strategy was a winner on all maps. Comparing with the other teams that went the Pyramids route only reinforces this conclusion.

Excellent managing of diplomacy and inter-AI relations. Having klarius on our team almost feels like cheating. :) A guy that can predict that a certain AI will have a one-turn window for declaring war at our bidding ten turns into the future. :eek:

Superb turnset execution from everyone on the team. :goodjob: Almost all mistakes we made were already in the Pre-Play Plans and therefore the combined responsibility of the whole team.

LC's notion of one build per turn. I am going to compare the number of completed builds for the different teams to see just how big the difference is. The build sequence during FiveAces' 500 BC-250 BC turnset is pretty impressive: Forge, Harbor, Heroic Epic, Cat, Cat, Cat, University, Oxford University, Cat. All completed in one turn each. I wouldn't believe it possible if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. :eek:

Thanks to LC's excellent dotmaps, a plan from the beginning on which cities to capture when to
a) avoid cities being razed (selecting KK as our PA partner definitely helped here, I saw Freddie razing size 19 capitals in some game :lol:)
and b) have time for culture expansions to cover enough tiles for domination



Then, we might have improved the game further by:


Better scouting. I feel we suffered in the mid-game when KK was warring a lot but not making any progress. Had we ensured better intelligence we might have avoided some of the more futile attempts like Cuzco/Kyoto. One reason for our poor scouting was the loss of our scouts, including an over-curious missionary being beheaded during the turnset of yours truly. The plank got well worn by trodding feet...:spank:

Possibly letting KK have some peaceful turns to enter builder mode. As it was we basically had him at constant war from around T45 to T177. Though it was more fun this way...

Some fine-tuning of the way we handled war allies. Like avoiding cities behind captured by other AIs (Cuzco, Kyoto, Hamburg).



EDIT: In the later part of the game we really got the hang of the unit types and how to get an unwilling AI to move those units to where they could capture a redlined city. This was one of our strengths. But had we gone through the effort of learing this earlier and combining it with better intel I think we could have improved the victory date by dozens of additional turns.


I am certain that a pre-1000 AD domination is possible in a perfectly executed game on this map. So domination is definitely the quickest possible victory condition.

Culdeus plans to play next.
Is this according to the game rules? I'd say they are going to be disqualified for reloading.

Should we act (through an admin maybe) to avoid their forfeit?

I thought he reloaded to act out the initial part of the game, not near their current turns. If he played through to their current turns, then yeah, thats a problem

Hey Murky, this is for you, from the unusual suspects

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7040028&postcount=940

Hold on here, let's not jump to conclusions. Are entire teams posting in other teams' threads? If individual players have dropped out from their teams, can they post in other teams' threads? Maybe what you're seeing is individual players who have dropped out posting in other threads. If you look at Murky Waters' Power, it just took a big dive. Are you sure this player of theirs didn't throw in the towel and quit in the face of imminent defeat?

I thought he reloaded to act out the initial part of the game, not near their current turns. If he played through to their current turns, then yeah, thats a problemWell, it's a technical point, but he really shouldn't re-open and play any previous save.

Well, it's a technical point, but he really shouldn't re-open and play any previous save.

i completely agree. But I dont see the point in getting them DQ'ed, since they arent gonna get a laurel anyways.

But afterwards, it should be mentioned...

Hey Murky, this is for you, from the unusual suspects

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7040028&postcount=940

Hold on here, let's not jump to conclusions. Are entire teams posting in other teams' threads? If individual players have dropped out from their teams, can they post in other teams' threads? Maybe what you're seeing is individual players who have dropped out posting in other threads. If you look at Murky Waters' Power, it just took a big dive. Are you sure this player of theirs didn't throw in the towel and quit in the face of imminent defeat?

:rotfl: One really does need to think of several possibilities when trying to interpret those graphs. It's worse than fog gazing :D

LC's notion of one build per turn.

Okay, let's take jesusin's Big Fat Greek Argument to the extreme. Say we need 64 cats to win the game. Any other production is only to enable those cats + PA (axe defenders, city defenders, Oxford, etc.) 64*40=2560:hammers:.

Okay, let's say we produce 20 cats before Oxford. 44*40= 1760h. 30h base + 30h * {50% + 25% + 100%} = 82hpt. 1760/80=22 turns. So, starting about T115, if we already have a 10XP unit, we will have produced enough units to win by T137.

Works for me.

If you can build 2 Cats a turn, please play my turnset too. :D


:p:p:p



Maybe it is time to sum up our good and bad moves in this game. Let me try first with the power moves and strong aspects:

Thank you. I think this is the most important part of our join efforts, the postmorten analysis.

I agree with everything you mention.

On the plus side I'd add

1.- Early wars to shape a world with a predominant AI on it.

2.- Precise analysis of the prefered PA partners.

3.- We do work as a team. All ideas are presented and considered. We are not shy to get our ideas back again if they have not been properly answered. We have good laughs together. There's been not bad feelings after more than 3000 posts!


On the things that could be improved, I'd mention:

1.- Consistency. It is not rare to see one player exchange 1h for 1b on his last turn, only to find the next player willing to exchange 5b for 1h. Or one player sending all of his units S on his last turn only to find the next player taking all of them N. Anyway, this lack of consistency only affects the tactical side, not the strategic side.

2.- The shorter the turnsets, the better. The 3/5 first turns of a turnset have been discussed to "some" extent before playing. If we had played 5-turn turnsets there would have been much less plank. And it would have helped reduce the amount of inconsistencies. On the other hand, it would probably have lead to doubling our post count! :cry:

3.- Private bets/challenges. I (kindly) disapprove this kind of things. The previous SGOTM there was a 1AD challenge. The goal of this challenge was perfectly aligned with our overall goal, so it wasn't as harmful. Even been so, I expressed my opinion that it was better to fail the challenge by a couple of turns than to sacrifice too much on the following goal only to satisfy our egos. This SGOTM there have been goals that were not so much aligned with the overall picture. I'd advise not to set up parallel competitions. Or am I being too anal?

4.- Dowing JC before PA. This almost killed KK. We should have aimed at the weakest AIs, leaving JC for later.


We have had a great time, haven't we? :goodjob:

i completely agree. But I dont see the point in getting them DQ'ed, since they arent gonna get a laurel anyways.

But afterwards, it should be mentioned...

AlanH's posted in their thread already about another related issue, I assume he's noticed this one as well.

2.- The shorter the turnsets, the better. The 3/5 first turns of a turnset have been discussed to "some" extent before playing. If we had played 5-turn turnsets there would have been much less plank. And it would have helped reduce the amount of inconsistencies. On the other hand, it would probably have lead to doubling our post count! :cry:

I think by introducing the stopping points we came up with a happy medium - a place to break a 10-turn turnset into 2 smaller ones if something happened during the early turns that diverted from the PPP without forcing a break if it wasn't needed. For me in my last turnset this was when I planned to DOW Liz t3-5 but the way the first turns played out I didn't want to then. So I broke the turnset and we replanned as a team and went from there.

Contrast this with my second turnset where kk took Sparta quickly without our help, and I started moving units towards Athens and got overaggressive and ended up losing bunch of them (plank!). Breaking there would have been the right move.

4.- Dowing JC before PA. This almost killed KK. We should have aimed at the weakest AIs, leaving JC for later.

This I'm not sure I agree with. Antium was a key city for kk logistically. We could help. And IIRC, there wasn't any other good option, was there? Plus we broke JC - if we had left him alone (he had Cuzco by then, right) then we would have had to deal with him later when he would have been much stronger. I think the DOW was the right move. And remember, we weren't married to kk yet - if JC had managed to win, we could have still PA'd with him or Asoka.

We have had a great time, haven't we? :goodjob:

Definitely. This is a great team - thanks again for inviting me to join. I've learned so much. I can't wait for the next one, even if I have to get/learn BTS to play it!

3.- Private bets/challenges. I (kindly) disapprove this kind of things. The previous SGOTM there was a 1AD challenge. The goal of this challenge was perfectly aligned with our overall goal, so it wasn't as harmful. Even been so, I expressed my opinion that it was better to fail the challenge by a couple of turns than to sacrifice too much on the following goal only to satisfy our egos. This SGOTM there have been goals that were not so much aligned with the overall picture. I'd advise not to set up parallel competitions. Or am I being too anal?YOu gotta hear this, jesusin, it's ironic. When I announced the SG6 (1ad) and the SG7 (500ad) challenges, my ulterior motive was to get us to agree on a goal for the game (e.g., so we could be consistent ;)). I never took those challenges to be more important than the game we were playing. I don't think anyone else did either. Any talk that appeared to contradict this was surely mere trash talking. SImilarly, my bet with Gnejs was of course just joking around. If either Gnejs or I or anyone else had had commanding reason to go the other way with that tile, we would have made that clear.

A little history. If you look back at the SG6 thread to where I made that 1AD Challenge, notice that the next post has me taking up the challenge. The fact is, is that I actually 'wrote' the second post first, in my notes. I was trying to solve two problems: 1) We hadn't decided on a strategy yet and 2) we didn't have any coastal cities yet and it was becoming clear to me that we were running out of time to make a bridge and go for a galley-based conquest. So I investigated the idea of bee-lining alpha and having super-charged galleys (galleons with 5 movement points) speed up our conquest. In my calculations, we could get to Alpha about 1AD. I was ready to post my findings, but then had this thought that you guys wouldn't take it seriously enough, so I decided to make it a challenge, so you guys would look at it for fun and then see that it migth actually work. LUckily for me, Erkon took up the challenge. Then, iirc, both klarius and Gnejs made versions and then the best thing of all happened, from my point of view: Erkon, good captain that he is, insisted that we decide whether or not to bee-line astro.

If these sidebets or challenges distract us from our mission, then I agree with you. If it happens again and you become concerned about that, jesusin, just speak up and we'll make sure it's not a distraction. Okay?

Btw, how would you guys feel about playing a regular succession game? Just while we are waiting for the results to come in. Deity, no OCC, no PA, any civ version you want.

Btw, how would you guys feel about playing a regular succession game? Just while we are waiting for the results to come in. Deity, no OCC, no PA, any civ version you want.That's an idea. Maybe it would make sense to play a BTS game at the difficulty level Gyathaar is likely to give us (Monarch?), and maybe even with the latest updated version? Otherwise, I'll be even more useless than usual, come the real thing in August. I've only played BTS a little.

That's an idea. Maybe it would make sense to play a BTS game at the difficulty level Gyathaar is likely to give us (Monarch?), and maybe even with the latest updated version? Otherwise, I'll be even more useless than usual, come the real thing in August. I've only played BTS a little.

I've never played BTS. I do have the CD though, just haven't gotten around to installing it yet :crazyeye:. But I'll be on vacation for the first 2 weeks in August so I'd have to drop off partway through.

Choko's are done. Space victory with Asoka in 1860. But don't post in their thread yet since AlanH hasn't confirmed.

Double post...

...
3.- We do work as a team. All ideas are presented and considered. We are not shy to get our ideas back again if they have not been properly answered. We have good laughs together. There's been not bad feelings after more than 3000 posts!
...
1.- Consistency. It is not rare to see one player exchange 1h for 1b on his last turn, only to find the next player willing to exchange 5b for 1h. Or one player sending all of his units S on his last turn only to find the next player taking all of them N. Anyway, this lack of consistency only affects the tactical side, not the strategic side.
...
3.- Private bets/challenges. I (kindly) disapprove this kind of things. The previous SGOTM there was a 1AD challenge. The goal of this challenge was perfectly aligned with our overall goal, so it wasn't as harmful. Even been so, I expressed my opinion that it was better to fail the challenge by a couple of turns than to sacrifice too much on the following goal only to satisfy our egos. This SGOTM there have been goals that were not so much aligned with the overall picture. I'd advise not to set up parallel competitions. Or am I being too anal?
...
We have had a great time, haven't we? :goodjob:

We have improved a lot how we cooperate. I can only speak for myself, but I play better in this team compared when I play alone (so you can imagine my abyssmal performance in my private games, right LC? :lol:)

The MM suffers during the transition between players and also unit movement. The balance between long term planning and flexibility has this side effect. More consistency => less flexibility in general. But I agree that there is room for reducing inconsistency without loosing flexibility. Don't know how though :confused:. You introduced the ratio for hammers and beakers, but we really never used more than a rough guideline. I tried to list the priorities in one of my PPPs, but I don't know how much that helped.
Regarding the Hamburg stack: It was actually me who changed my mind where to send them (back north instead of south), so it was not necessarily inconsistency between players, but more connected to the period between turn sets that allow us to think. I would prefer to play 8 turns instead of 10 on certain occasions, but that may lead to other problems such as less concistency :eek:

I'm sorry if our private bets lead you to believe that we would sacrifice any team progress for our own egos! The Biology-bet was just a way for me to tease LC, and I am perfectly aware that working the cottage for two turns didn't affect the turn we got Biology (in hindsight). These private bets enables us to trash talk a bit more, which was the reason why I joined MW in the first place :D

Regarding the Alpha Astro-challenge in the previous: Gnejs made a list of the finish dates, and there was a direct and unambigous correlation between the Astro-date and the Win-date (28, 30 and 30 turns). We had a similar challenge (although we did not call it a challenge and did not set a turn target) this game to get Alpha as quick as possible (and a similar challenge to get Communism asap). These three examples show how the sub-goals helps us to achieve the final goal (win the game :D).

Anyway, I appreciate your comments since it helps me understand how others perceives my posts :) And yes, I enjoyed this game much more than I though I would (perhaps because I got one combat turn set in addition to my first builder turn set) :lol: And then I learned a bunch of stuff. Finally, I would like to thank FiveAces for your contribution as a new team member and hope you install BTS to join the next SGOTM with us, right? :goodjob:

Hmm, the Smurkz are about to sign a DP with Saladin. Doesn't that receive them a -1 from all others? :hmm:

Hmm, the Smurkz are about to sign a DP with Saladin. Doesn't that receive them a -1 from all others? :hmm:

I don't think it is permanent so it should be enough if they cancel the pact before UN. Looking forward to following their and CRCs progress. Very interesting games!

Hmm, the Smurkz are about to sign a DP with Saladin. Doesn't that receive them a -1 from all others? :hmm:

I noticed that too :lol: But it will not necessarily result in a -1 from everyone, I know this from experience. The message is "you signed a DP with our rivals" so I am guessing there is something in the code (comparitive power? rank? maybe AI specific?) which determines whether you get a -1 or not in the particular situation depending on whether the AI you signed the DP with is a "rival" of the AI in question.

But yeah it's likely gonna be a huge mistake. Especially if the game plays out like the Misfits did when they played out the save and Saladin actually ends up being the UN rival. Talk about an anti-power move :rolleyes:.

EDIT: Gnejs is right they can just cancel before the vote. But then it won't help them with Saladin.

Defensive pacts can help.
You get one or more negatives only if you have too many: -((4*number_DPs)/(num_civs_alive-2)) is the attitude change.

So assuming there will be more than 14 civs alive at the vote 3 DPs are no problem.

They can sign now all DPs they can get and drop the ones not needed immediately before the vote.

Ok, I have compiled some nice stats from browsing the in-game logs of most teams saves. I have tried to take the save closest to 1000 AD (turn 160) as this seems a nice date for comparison. Still missing are CRC and Smurkz as they haven't reached that far yet. And for some reason I can't open iWarBadly's save... ;) All dates/turn# are taken from the in-game log so it might be off by one from what you experience in the game.

Turn numbers in parenthesis means BIDL (Built in Distant Land). Empty means "hasn't happened yet". Note that the post-PA wars only seem to count once in the in-game log, at least in our (MW) game.


IMPORTANT DATES AND ACHIEVEMENTS
================================================== ================================================== ===

Ch CRC GK Gz FE iWB Mi MW OSS RMB Sm TT US XT
Alphabet 63 57 63 56 46 66 44 63 60 58 68 61 61
Pyramids 39 45 38 43 (49) 43 (53) 37 (51) 48 39 38 (56)
Great Library (77) 72 75 (84) 65 80 62 77 76 72 (73) 74 76

Civil Service 97 86 92 110 84 92 86 91 103 85 111 96 93
Education 109 98 114 139 102 110 99 112 128 102 122 122 110
Liberalism 124 127 126 (134) 121 118 107 125 (133) 113 131 129 117
Free tech from Lib Astro Phy!! Chem Astro Astro Astro Astro Astro Nat Astro Astro
Communism 162 150 188 ??? 155 135 154 168 183 133

Heroic Epic 137 98 144
Oxford University 117 103 111 116


PA partner Asoka Asoka Liz Liz Asoka KK Fred Fred JC Asoka
PA date 164 136 134
Current date 128 275 192 231
Finish date 280 210 261 313 197 177 186 309 282 204

SITUATION AROUND 1000 AD, taken from closest save
================================================== ================================================== ===
Ch CRC GK Gz FE iWB Mi MW OSS RMB Sm TT US XT

Turn of save 160 158 158 160 164 161 159 160 160 161 155 155

Units built 11 20 13 21 57 74 41 16 15 12 16 38
Total buildings 18 17 15 17 20 14 19 14 17 19 19 16
World wonders 1 2 1 1 4 1 3 1 2 1 2 2
National wonders 3 5 3 4 4 3 3 2 3 2 3 3
Average turns/build 5.5 4.3 5.6 4.2 2.1 1.8 2.7 5.3 5 5.2 4.4 2.9

No. of own wars 2 6 1 2 7 13 4 1 2 1 0 6
No. of total wars 10 13 1 11 17 38 13 4 6 4 1 23
Average turns/war 16 12.2 158 14.5 9.6 4.2 12.2 40 26.6 40.2 155 6.7

Great People spawned 5 9 5 5 6 4 7 7 8 8 8 8




Some observations:

Many teams were cutting it very thin on the Great Library, while those that went for the Pyramids had a slightly better margin.
Geezers have fought one single war, when Lizzie dows on them in 1480 BC! RealMsBeyond gets dowed by Washington in 725 BC.
Check out the number of wars and units built, it seems as if all the other teams are of the girlie builder type. :lol:
We and Misfits are the ones coming closest to "one build per turn".



I would like to add PA date, finish date and maybe also the number of spawned GP. But I have run out of both cold beer and energy, so someone please help me. :beer::thanx:

EDIT: Added the number of Great People spawned. Manual counting, so I might have missed some...
EDIT#2: Filled in some missing dates. I can't find in the log from Fifth Element when they got Communism.
EDIT#3: Some more additions, including columns for the missing teams.
More edits...

Gnejs,

Wow, thats an awesome summary. Im copying it to our thread. Thanks for doing that.

Cept, we built BOTH the Mids and the GLib =). And we weren't girly builder types! We just didnt hit the gym every single day like you guys did. I can see based on your summary where things were different

What about religion? That played a big role for diplo stuff. For instance, in our game, we had a jewish north and a buddhist south. So we played nice to George and Liz, while building up Asoka (all jewish) until we could :backstab: Liz n George


I'd help out but im recovering from a root canal....

Cept, we built BOTH the Mids and the GLib =). And we weren't girly builder types!

Of course you were. You just said so yourself... :p

Glad you enjoyed the stats! I have filled out a few more things in the table.

Of course you were. You just said so yourself... :p

Glad you enjoyed the stats! I have filled out a few more things in the table.

We had the 2nd most units I think.

We were wonder happy! Gotta keep the troops in line somehow, and big ominous phallic looking things have done the trick throughtout time!

Gnejs, do have any idea how to determine how many bushels, hammers, and coins were produced by each team in that unit of time?

By the way, Gnejs, you left out klarius' favorite stat: 1 war every 4.24 turns!!! ;)

...And we weren't girly builder types!
...
What about religion? That played a big role for diplo stuff...

Twice as many wonders as us, and ~50% more buildings? Now, if that is not girly play, I don't know what is :p

We built a couple of miss'es to convert KK to Hinduism to enable a war, so religion had impact. Instead of building cats :cry: Oops, did I just admit that we built girly stuff?! :crazyeye: It was klarius idea, not mine! :crazyeye: And it was LC who built them :mischief:

Gnejs, do have any idea how to determine how many bushels, hammers, and coins were produced by each team in that unit of time?

Bushels will be hard to calculate since we don't know the health-history. We need the complete game log for that (population changes), which will also give us the hammers and beakers. One interesting date would be which date each team reached Steel, but that will only apply to Domination-teams.

One interesting date would be which date each team reached Steel, but that will only apply to Domination-teams.

Steel is girly, Artillery is for real men.

Bushels will be hard to calculate since we don't know the health-history. We need the complete game log for that (population changes), which will also give us the hammers and beakers. One interesting date would be which date each team reached Steel, but that will only apply to Domination-teams.

There are food curves in the graphs for the previous SGs. Though I think it is only determined from the state at each uploaded save and not accumulated values.

Steel is girly, Artillery is for real men.

Nah, who needs artillery? A real man like jesusin declares war on two Deity AIs before he even had Bronze Working (T46, two warriors built). :lol:

Nice table, Gnejs.:goodjob:

From the Alpha date I infere that we were researching the fastest, while others were busy with hammers for the Piramyds.

From the Comm date I infere that the Piramyds didn't help other teams to catch up with us... with the exception of XT. What did they do there? What deviation from the beeline we did and they didn't? :confused:



Steel is girly, Artillery is for real men.

A real man doesn't need anything but Cats.

From the Comm date I infere that the Piramyds didn't help other teams to catch up with us... with the exception of XT. What did they do there? What deviation from the beeline we did and they didn't? :confused:

No Mids for Xteam. We did Great Lighthouse instead. Financial + Cottage Spam + Xtra Trade Routes + Bureaucracy had nice synergies. And our early GM bulbed Metal Casting for an early forge and 2 extra happiness.

Nice table, Gnejs.:goodjob:

From the Alpha date I infere that we were researching the fastest, while others were busy with hammers for the Piramyds.

From the Comm date I infere that the Piramyds didn't help other teams to catch up with us... with the exception of XT. What did they do there? What deviation from the beeline we did and they didn't? :confused:


We got unlucky and popped a GA low odds. That cost us 4-5 turns on Communism.

One missing datum in your comparision table, Gnejs, that I think may be the most crucial of all is the turn of completion of the Heroic Epic. That's what really enables the 1 unit per turn. With our early warring, we were able to get our 10xp unit somewhat quickly, although we surely could have pushed that much further forward, if we had prioritized that in our strategy. In fact, maybe that's the key to your 1000ad finish.

One missing datum in your comparision table, Gnejs, that I think may be the most crucial of all is the turn of completion of the Heroic Epic. That's what really enables the 1 unit per turn. With our early warring, we were able to get our 10xp unit somewhat quickly, although we surely could have pushed that much further forward, if we had prioritized that in our strategy. In fact, maybe that's the key to your 1000ad finish.

I think you are right. Could you perhaps help out with looking through the saves? If you do, then note the dates for CS, Edu, Lib, and Oxford too. Please. :)

We built a couple of miss'es to convert KK to Hinduism to enable a war, so religion had impact. Instead of building cats :cry: Oops, did I just admit that we built girly stuff?! :crazyeye: It was klarius idea, not mine! :crazyeye: And it was LC who built them :mischief:Anyone ever heard of a Team Captain making excuses for and passing the buck on a winning strategy? :crazyeye:

This brings up another interesting characteristic of our MW team play:We have a written rule that the player playing the turnset gets to make final decisios, but we also seem to have a rarely used, unwritten rule that someone can 'veto' or 'push' some particular detail if he feels really strongly about it.I think this also leads to some of our stronger play.

I was thinking of replaying our game from exactly my turnset and building 4 cats and forgetting about the Hindu misses and DoWing Alex (leaving Alex for the PA). But now I'm wondering if the real key to speeding this game up is to get a axe out right after we get BW (~T45) for his 10XP and building the HE before we get Construction. I forget when we built the barracks. :blush:

I think you are right. Could you perhaps help out with looking through the saves? If you do, then note the dates for CS, Edu, Lib, and Oxford too. Please. :)Okay. I'll start at the back and do half.

EDIT: But I don't see build dates in the log file. Is there another place to look in the save? I know where to find the great wonders, of course)

CS EDU Lib
CH 450bc 150bc 225ad-astro
CR 725bc 425bc 300ad-physics!!!
FE 775bc 325bc 150ad-astro
GZ 125bc 580ad (475ad)
GK 575bc 025bc 275ad-chemistry
MI 575bc 125bc 75ad-astro
MW 725bc 400bc 200bc-astro
OS 600bc 75bc 250ad-astro
SM 750bc 325bc 50bc-astro
RM 300bc 325ad (450ad)
TT 100bc 175ad 400ad-nationalism
US 475bc 175ad 350ad-astro
XT 550bc 125bc 50ad-astro

Additional:
CR alpha(1720bc) mids(2200bc) GLib(1120bc)

Okay, here's another critical factor in compating teams, I think. I just noticed that on T126 Xteam was still trying to decide whether to go for Diplo or Domination!?! Aside from the fact that that would drive me berserk, I think it has to be more optimal to decide on a VC as early as possible.

I was thinking of replaying our game from exactly my turnset and building 4 cats and forgetting about the Hindu misses and DoWing Alex (leaving Alex for the PA). But now I'm wondering if the real key to speeding this game up is to get a axe out right after we get BW (~T45) for his 10XP and building the HE before we get Construction. I forget when we built the barracks. :blush:
It's no use to replay. The RNG plays a much bigger role than any build decision. You are talking here of maybe having a couple of units more at some point. Then you still have to find a use for them.
The units we had, spent most of their lifetime moving and waiting. Sure, there were times where a few units more at the right location would probably have made a difference. But that's not given by having some more units overall.

Steel is girly, Artillery is for real men.Okay, your T134 save you still don't have a 10XP unit for HE. In your T155 save, you've built the HE, but you're building a cannon in 2 turns. In other words, you're prioritizing research over building 1 unit per turn. You're playing OCC. You're production is limited to 1 unit per turn, no matter what you build. (Unless you figure out how to use Nationhood for an extra unit occsaionally).

We built HE on T98. After that, every single turn we completed a build, mostly units, naturally. (Except for an accidental 2t cannon once toward the end when it didn't matter any more anyway.)

It's no use to replay.Replaying is not about comparing victory dates. One can always do better with a replay, obviously. It's more about figuring out what's possible and what's potentially more effective.

Okay. I'll start at the back and do half.

EDIT: But I don't see build dates in the log file. Is there another place to look in the save? I know where to find the great wonders, of course)

CS EDU Lib
MI 575bc 125bc 75ad-astro
MW 725bc 400bc 200bc-astro
OS 600bc 75bc 250ad-astro
SM 750bc 325bc 50bc-astro
RM 300bc 325ad --
TT 100bc 175ad 400ad-nationalism
US 475bc 175ad 350ad-astro
XT 550bc 125bc 50ad-astro


Thanks! You will surely complete the second half for me as well, won't you? :goodjob:

Great wonders dates are also in the in-game log. But you are right that national wonders are not. Hmm, browse team threads? :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

EDIT#2: Filled in some missing dates. I can't find in the log from Fifth Element when they got Communism.


Nice table! I don't think Fifth Element would have gotten Communism before their PA. They delayed it as long as they could, so their partner surely would have had it (or fascism) by then so no reason for them to burn a trade on it.

Btw, Erkon, your 500 BC - 250 BC FiveAces Turnset link in your first page is gefrkenheimered.

Replaying is not about comparing victory dates. One can always do better with a replay, obviously. It's more about figuring out what's possible and what's potentially more effective.

Yes, we had some animated discussions were we never reached a consensus. I'd like to replay these hotly debated decisions as well:


Staggered DOW instead of simultaneous in our early wars (vs HC on T46, vs Toku on T65)
DOW JC instead of Alex (this was when KK had CS but JC not yet Feudalism IIRC, so somewhere around T85)
DOW Asoka instead of Fred (your turnset, around T134)
Bribe Asoka against Alex instead of Fred (again, your turnset around T134)
Gift Astronomy to KK immediately instead of sitting on it forever and letting his nets be pillaged (well, we didn't debate this, we just forgot to do it for a couple of turnsets...)
Bulldozing my little village and constructing a huge, ugly workshop over it :lol:

Yes, we had some animated discussions were we never reached a consensus. I'd like to replay these hotly debated decisions as well:


Staggered DOW instead of simultaneous in our early wars (vs HC on T46, vs Toku on T65)
DOW JC instead of Alex (this was when KK had CS but JC not yet Feudalism IIRC, so somewhere around T85)
DOW Asoka instead of Fred (your turnset, around T134)
Bribe Asoka against Alex instead of Fred (again, your turnset around T134)
Gift Astronomy to KK immediately instead of sitting on it forever and letting his nets be pillaged (well, we didn't debate this, we just forgot to do it for a couple of turnsets...)
Bulldozing my little village and constructing a huge, ugly workshop over it :lol:


Might also want to look at DOW'ing Liz at the start of my last turnset.

Replaying is not about comparing victory dates. One can always do better with a replay, obviously. It's more about figuring out what's possible and what's potentially more effective.
Still, what's the consequence of 2-3 units more, if you have no target. The units built around DoW Alex time fought in Greece and at Antium (where we had enough).
Note also, not building monastery delays science a bit (not as much as GA-GS RNG :crazyeye:, but still). That means communism-chemistry will be later. How that influences the victory then :confused:.

Still, what's the consequence of 2-3 units more, if you have no target. The units built around DoW Alex time fought in Greece and at Antium (where we had enough).
Note also, not building monastery delays science a bit (not as much as GA-GS RNG :crazyeye:, but still). That means communism-chemistry will be later. How that influences the victory then :confused:.I might not have had a target, but I'm certain that you would have found one... ;) Now I'm looking at an earlier HE. That could change the dynamics considerably with such a powerful city. Who knows, we might have been able to start munching on the HIndus before PA?

Thanks! You will surely complete the second half for me as well, won't you? :goodjob:Done. ;)

Aren't polite people exasperating?

Done. ;)

Aren't polite people exasperating?

Done editing in your dates in the table as well. :)