Don't hold your breath for no near settlement. It's a crowded map. There can be cities SW as well as SE.

:eek: You're right. In fact, the fogged tile in the mountains has 3 food resources and silver. Another reason not to rush camping the deer - we might lose it for a while early on if a creative civ is below us.

Is there anything specific anyone would like me to experiment with in a test game tonight?

Originally Posted by klarius
The AI will never bomb a last city, so that's no option.
From the SDK it's a necessary condition that the team's plot culture is below 60%. And that's not the case when the previous owner is dead.

Let's say our home continent is ~5 tiles short of the dom limit. So we need 1 city overseas. Now say that we take one from an AI that has more than 1 city. If we immediately gift a GA to our partner in that city, will they bomb it? They'll have well less than 60% culture since the overseas AI won't be dead, and the city will immediately come out of resistance and expand borders, putting us (hopefully) over the dom limit.

Originally Posted by klarius


Let's say our home continent is ~5 tiles short of the dom limit. So we need 1 city overseas. Now say that we take one from an AI that has more than 1 city. If we immediately gift a GA to our partner in that city, will they bomb it? They'll have well less than 60% culture since the overseas AI won't be dead, and the city will immediately come out of resistance and expand borders, putting us (hopefully) over the dom limit.
Well, they should bomb. But that doesn't solve the problem how we get them to get a holy or wonder city in the first place (other cities they will raze overseas unless it is the last city of that civ).
And if we get to this position it might still be that no tiles at all are gained by the bomb, because the enemy culture is so high (note: wonder or holy city).
But, OK we could kill this civ then after. That's a lot of ifs. I rather say we wait first and hope for our continent being enough :).

If we get to the point needing overseas holdings it might well be faster if we just raze cities on our own and hope for a settler from our ally.

:eek: You're right. In fact, the fogged tile in the mountains has 3 food resources and silver. Another reason not to rush camping the deer - we might lose it for a while early on if a creative civ is below us....and our stone...:eek:...but my guess is further SW is where a settler will settle.

Here are my guesses:
I suspect Gyathaar was fairly careful to make this game winnable. Unlike SG5, where AH first was bountiful for the human capital and SG6, where BW first was, my guess is that both choices pay off. Furthermore, my guess is that no Industrious AI has stone, so those who go for Pyramids have a fighting chance of getting them. SOmeone may settle to the far W, 2 tiles from the sheep, but since they'll need Sailing, presumably, they won't steal our sheep. It might even be set up for us to keep our cattle, but I doubt it, but that just depends on Gyathaar's mood, the day before he finalized this map... ;)

My guess is that Kubla will be on our continent, along with a bunch of HeredRule AIs and Mansa. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 1 or 2 other Creative AIs. That would make this competition very interesting, because who do you chooe between two equally powerful ones: The one nearby or the one far to the south? And I think we'll be able to Dominate with our continent alone, but that depends on Gyathaar's mood the day he finalized this map... ;)

(other cities they will raze overseas unless it is the last city of that civ). How does Kubla's 0 RazeCityProb factor in then?

How does Kubla's 0 RazeCityProb factor in then?
I has nothing to do with it. :crazyeye:

There are first conditions checked where all leaders will never or always raze.
Only if none of these conditions hold true the RazeCityProb is checked against the RNG.

I played my (modified) map to 100 AD, at which time I had learned Liberalism (75 AD). To me this is insanely early, but that's probably due to the map and not me :cry:

First question: How does this date compare to other tries on my map? I could not find any hint in the previous posts.

Observations: Oxford is built in 4 turns. No need to save trees for it.

Build path: Theatre, GLib, Globe

Second question: Is this a suitable build path, or does GLib go before Theatre?

I didn't manage to trade BW in first round, but in second when I had sailing as well. More important, I could not get Cathy to DoW because she had her hands full from 2200 AD. It turned out that she was having wet dreams about me, but it took 2300 years before she shook of her shyness and penetrated my borders with lots of pointy sticks.

Third question: How do you/we choose PA-partner? Is it more important to get an early war with someone, than getting the optimum partner?

Are you saying I should go 20 turns now? :crazyeye:

I'm saying I can't make up my mind. klarius suggestion to break at T20 makes sense. But then the next stop (T29 @ Writing + WB) will make LC's turn set very short and rather uninteresting. Perhaps we should skip the alignment and just follow the standard 20-15-10-10 turn sets. :confused:

I'm saying I can't make up my mind. klarius suggestion to break at T20 makes sense. But then the next stop (T29 @ Writing + WB) will make LC's turn set very short and rather uninteresting. Perhaps we should skip the alignment and just follow the standard 20-15-10-10 turn sets. :confused:Trust me--I can make my turnset veeerrrrry interesting...:nuke:

20-15-10 is perfect for finishing Alpha on T45 which looks most likely. Just make sure Gnejs pauses and uploads right before his mistakes.

I played my (modified) map to 100 AD, at which time I had learned Liberalism (75 AD). To me this is insanely early, but that's probably due to the map and not me :cry:
On various maps I had times form 100BC into the 200ADs. It's not really the map, but things like lux trades, religions and tech trades (CoL and philosophy traded or researched). These facts vary a lot even on the same map.

First question: How does this date compare to other tries on my map? I could not find any hint in the previous posts.
Observations: Oxford is built in 4 turns. No need to save trees for it.
On various maps I had times form 100BC into the 200ADs. It's not really the map, but things like lux trades, religions and tech trades (CoL and philosophy traded or researched). These facts vary a lot even on the same map.
I still used 1 or 2 forests for university-oxford.


Build path: Theatre, GLib, Globe

Second question: Is this a suitable build path, or does GLib go before Theatre?

I built GLib before theatre but noted lately that I have trouble to even get all resources improved in time.

Third question: How do you/we choose PA-partner? Is it more important to get an early war with someone, than getting the optimum partner?
Wait and see. Definitely don't go wildly into a war w/o having good knowledge of the map and all civs on our landmass. If there are a few turns missing when we get communism that's no big problem - we can still help our partner also w/o PA (but we risk duplicating research).
But, if we bet our money on a loser and piss off others that is a problem.

:eek: You're right. In fact, the fogged tile in the mountains has 3 food resources and silver. Another reason not to rush camping the deer - we might lose it for a while early on if a creative civ is below us.

Is there anything specific anyone would like me to experiment with in a test game tonight?

I lost the deer for a couple of turns on my map, so we must be prepared for that.

We're just trying to decide if we're going for the pyramids or not. So if you want to try the pyramid track on for example my (modified) map, I think that would enable us to take a better decision. It's just a suggestion though in case you have spare time :crazyeye:

I played my (modified) map to 100 AD, at which time I had learned Liberalism (75 AD). To me this is insanely early, but that's probably due to the map and not me :cry:

First question: How does this date compare to other tries on my map? I could not find any hint in the previous posts.I got 200ad with your map once. 740ad PA.

Build path: Theatre, GLib, Globe

Second question: Is this a suitable build path, or does GLib go before Theatre?I'd build GLib asap when done with Lit, but I'm not certain that Drama first isn't better, to get the pop up sooner. EDIT: Are you completing Lit or Drama first?

I didn't manage to trade BW in first round, but in second when I had sailing as well. More important, I could not get Cathy to DoW because she had her hands full from 2200 AD. It turned out that she was having wet dreams about me, but it took 2300 years before she shook of her shyness and penetrated my borders with lots of pointy sticks.Same here with Cathy except she DoWed Washington and that a few turns before Alpha.:eek: I had to suck it up and DoW too.

I played my (modified) map to 100 AD, at which time I had learned Liberalism (75 AD). To me this is insanely early, but that's probably due to the map and not me :cry:

First question: How does this date compare to other tries on my map? I could not find any hint in the previous posts.

I'm getting confused with all the variations - which post is it in? I'll try it tonight.

Observations: Oxford is built in 4 turns. No need to save trees for it.

That is ridiculously fast.

Build path: Theatre, GLib, Globe

Second question: Is this a suitable build path, or does GLib go before Theatre?

I think you certainly start it while you are researching Lit. Whether you continue after GLib is available depends on if you will run 10% culture and grow to size 7 (assuming no :) trades before Globe is finished). Maybe best way is bump culture to 10% with growth to size 6, work a 3c tile to offset sci loss, then time theater completion with growth to size 8?

I didn't manage to trade BW in first round, but in second when I had sailing as well. More important, I could not get Cathy to DoW because she had her hands full from 2200 AD. It turned out that she was having wet dreams about me, but it took 2300 years before she shook of her shyness and penetrated my borders with lots of pointy sticks.

Third question: How do you/we choose PA-partner? Is it more important to get an early war with someone, than getting the optimum partner?

Well that's tricky - is the optimum partner the one next to us that is otherwise most likely to DOW on us (by chance or by bribe) and best positioned to defend us while we're early warring, or is it the one far away that has 4 cities when everybody else has 2?

I can partly answer your question right now though - it's very important that we don't instigate an early war and DOW against the side that ends up winning. That would definitely not be optimal.

On various maps I had times form 100BC into the 200ADs. It's not really the map, but things like lux trades, religions and tech trades (CoL and philosophy traded or researched). These facts vary a lot even on the same map.I haven't been lucky enough to have someone research Philosphy for me yet. Once I got 2 or 3 turns shaved off of CoL. On any map.

I recommend we PA with Ghandi and still win the GOLD. That'll teach those suckers... :lol:

@klarius: I've read wive's tales and folklore about AIs becoming more warlike when the human DoWs, less so when the human avoids war. Is there anything to this?

I'm wondering because Gnejs started warring later and delayed Alpha trades and the AIs ended up not as advanced along the CHemistry bee-line. I'm wondering if delaying warring some turns but agreesively trading Alpha can lead to the AIs helping us with CoL and/or PHilo if we manipulate things correctly.

Third question: How do you/we choose PA-partner? Is it more important to get an early war with someone, than getting the optimum partner?

We ally with the winner of course. This is how I have approached the question:

Get several AIs to dogpile on a weak target. We start accumulating shared war turns with all of them. One AI will come out on top, often but not always this will be the one that has already the most cities. Sometimes it can be useful to have a scout in the action, to be able to call off one of the less interesting AIs before they happen to grab a city in front of our preferred AI.
When the war ends, or if the score/# city leader makes peace, then immediately start a new war against another target, preferrably getting some new allies with fresh troops to join in. Often it is nice if some of the other AIs are still stuck in the old war since that will slow them down further.

I have always been able to manipulate my intended ally into a position as top in score, tech and # cities.

...I'd build GLib asap when done with Lit, but I'm not certain that Drama first isn't better, to get the pop up sooner. EDIT: Are you completing Lit or Drama first?...

I completed Drama, then teched to Literature. It was about 12 turns to drama and I completed it to have something to trade away. OTOH the extra happiness at 10% culture was not really useful enough to delay GLib 10 turns. My conclusion is that we shall put two or three turns into Drama and then switch to Literature as soon as we have polytheism. But it's better to put beakers into Drama then Poly. I'm not sure many AI have completed Poly at T46.

I'm getting confused with all the variations - which post is it in? I'll try it tonight..

It's this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6764051&postcount=244)

I haven't been lucky enough to have someone research Philosphy for me yet. Once I got 2 or 3 turns shaved off of CoL. On any map.

I had to research CoL but traded for Phil.

We ally with the winner of course...

How come I did not think of that? Oh, perhaps because assumed there was a SMARTER way! :mad:

So it doesn't really matter what traits the AI has? Or do we just trust that the most suitable PA will also be most successful in early war? Well, let's continue this discussion when we know we can choose from...

Here you go.

Thanks. I played your game to completion, 1555 AD domination, by a) gifting all units to Hattie, b) building research indefinitely in Beijing, c) declaring war on Cyrus, Frederick, Gandhi, Washington, one after another. I didn't move a single unit, just pressed end of turn the whole time... ;)

Washington and Frederick got Rifling pretty quickly and we didn't have a tech edge over them early on. But I dowed Frederick anyway as he had spread units all over the place, with half his army in Tokus lands. Washington was later attacked with Infantry an artillery and fell in 3 turns...

Conclusion: tech situation is fine in this variant also.

How come I did not think of that? Oh, perhaps because assumed there was a SMARTER way! :mad:

So it doesn't really matter what traits the AI has? Or do we just trust that the most suitable PA will also be most successful in early war? Well, let's continue this discussion when we know we can choose from...

I don't think the traits matter much. It just seems as if the creative AIs are the most successful early on. Maybe they are settling in places where the other don't?

Trust me--I can make my turnset veeerrrrry interesting...:nuke:

20-15-10 is perfect for finishing Alpha on T45 which looks most likely. Just make sure Gnejs pauses and uploads right before his mistakes.

What mistakes? :confused: :mad:


Btw, I have updated the Pre-Play Plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6759296&postcount=196) for a 20 turns turnset.

We ally with the winner of course. This is how I have approached the question:

Get several AIs to dogpile on a weak target. We start accumulating shared war turns with all of them. One AI will come out on top, often but not always this will be the one that has already the most cities. Sometimes it can be useful to have a scout in the action, to be able to call off one of the less interesting AIs before they happen to grab a city in front of our preferred AI.
When the war ends, or if the score/# city leader makes peace, then immediately start a new war against another target, preferrably getting some new allies with fresh troops to join in. Often it is nice if some of the other AIs are still stuck in the old war since that will slow them down further.

I have always been able to manipulate my intended ally into a position as top in score, tech and # cities.

How come I did not think of that? Oh, perhaps because assumed there was a SMARTER way! :mad:

So it doesn't really matter what traits the AI has? Or do we just trust that the most suitable PA will also be most successful in early war? Well, let's continue this discussion when we know we can choose from...I'm skeptical about partnering with a non-creatin AI. I've been doing it completely differently. I've been picking my AI and primarily having him DoW someone else. On rare occasions I have pulled someone else in for some particular reason, but I didn't want to have a situation where other AIs were capturing my partners targets. I also on occasion have another AI war with a 4th party.

I've been focussing one selected partner and research.

What mistakes? :confused: :mad:


Btw, I have updated the Pre-Play Plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6759296&postcount=196) for a 20 turns turnset.Well, it looks mistake-proof... ;)

Looks good to me. When ya playin?

What mistakes? :confused: :mad:


Btw, I have updated the Pre-Play Plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6759296&postcount=196) for a 20 turns turnset.

You have a go from me as well. And just to be clear: please upload each turn so we can later detect when you did your crucial mistake which lost us the gold! J/K - but please remember that this turn set is the most important so far. Good luck. At least make a mid turn update, ok?

PS: So there is no difference for the first 20 turns regarding the pyramid track and the non-pyramid approach?

PS: So there is no difference for the first 20 turns regarding the pyramid track and the non-pyramid approach?

No, unless you count a totally different research and build order... :lol:

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track.... :p

FiveAces, will you play with the pointy buildings tonight?

@klarius: I've read wive's tales and folklore about AIs becoming more warlike when the human DoWs, less so when the human avoids war. Is there anything to this?

Existing wars get the chance of dog pile declarations (and some leaders are much more likely to do this than a max_war declaration e.g. Liz 1/300 for max_war, 1/25 for dogpile).
So there can be more wars, but that has nothing directly to do with the human declaring. If you could afford to bribe people w/o being involved you would get the same effect.

No, unless you count a totally different research and build order... :lol:

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track.... :p

FiveAces, will you play with the pointy buildings tonight?
Well, as I said I did it :p. But died before alphabet.
BTW, I didn't even do a max pyramids thing, I got pyramids ~T45, planned alpha ~T60. Hatty came T47.

I did several max pyramids runs in the very beginning w/o knowing all the resources and died there also once to Hatty.

So, I think it's too risky and another successful run will not convince me otherwise.

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track.... :pCan you believe it?! This deity level is intense. We haven't started and we're already getting extorted.

Well, as I said I did it :p. But died before alphabet.
BTW, I didn't even do a max pyramids thing, I got pyramids ~T45, planned alpha ~T60. Hatty came T47.

I did several max pyramids runs in the very beginning w/o knowing all the resources and died there also once to Hatty.

So, I think it's too risky and another successful run will not convince me otherwise.

I know, and I am also in favour of our early Alpha strategy. But I would like to see how a successful Pyramids strategy compares with a successful Alpha strategy. As it is now we have many succesful Alpha trial games on a bunch of different maps and one single successful Pyramids game on one single map. If Pyramids in general beat Alpha then we are going to lose to those teams that avoid an early DoW due to either skill or luck. On the other hand, if both strategies equally good or even Alpha is better then we are doing the right thing going for the less risky strategy.

Can you believe it?! This deity level is intense. We haven't started and we're already getting extorted.

Yep, so we all share a -1 with Gnejs unless one of us give in to his demands (then he will get a +1 :lol:)

I think I know what you're driving at. The question is: Can the Pyramids significantly speed up our PA? We haven't really done enough testing to be able to rule that possibility out. Let's loook at it this way. klarius got a PA on T133. You're getting ALphabet on ~T60, but not able to DoW until Literature at the earliest around T70, but better with Drama at T80. That gives you 53 turns to improve upon klarius' Alpha bee-line. Getting the 40 turns of common war in 53 turns is iffy, let alone doing it faster.

In addition to that we have the Risk factor:

We have one case in which the AI finished the Pyramids before we can hope to do it.
We know that we don't get ALpha till ~T60, at which time it's very difficult to cause a DoW, so we're delaying our ability to control our destiny until we reearch Drama (we don't want to trade Literature too soon). Suppose our danger zone for getting terminally DoWed starts on T20. We then change that 'window of opportunity' from 25 turns to 40-50 turns at least. Hmm...
Not getting Alpha till T60, we also dont' have BW till then, so we have no defenses.
As soon as we get BW we're more or less forced to divert our production into building a couple of axes, just in case.
The Pyramids Gambit depends on Deer, which we have no certainty we'll hold onto till we get Fishing from Alpha.
EDIT: CRC is NOT on our exact path. They are at Power 7 on T22. We'll be at Power 9 on T20. Either they researched some combination of hunting and masonry and built a warrior while growing to pop 2 (my guess) or they followed our research path but built a worker from the start or something else. In any case, I say, let's do it our way! Game on!!!

Yep, so we all share a -1 with Gnejs unless one of us give in to his demands (then he will get a +1 :lol:)Gnejs is one of those Cathy types, I think. It's at least -2 if not -3. :cool: Am I bad?

I managed to die on my own map. Cathy stole my Capital 1200 BC.

Ok. I cave to the extortion.
Erkon map. Pyramids T47 (warrior-wb-worker-worker-pyramids), (fishing-wheel-masonry-hunting-...alphabet T60).
Communism 640AD and you can have Isa or Vicky. Mansa or Hatty would also be only of few turns more, but are anyway not that good.

Good thing: initial alphabet trading went well, with math,BW right away and poly, IW next turn.
Could trade for philosophy.

One engineer settled, then 3 GS (at less than 100% odds obviously).

Bad: no religion until astronomy and had to go out of free religion to organized to convert Isa to the religion that spread from the other continent.

Ok. I cave to the extortion.
Erkon map. Pyramids T47 (warrior-wb-worker-worker-pyramids), (fishing-wheel-masonry-hunting-...alphabet T60).
Communism 640AD and you can have Isa or Vicky. Mansa or Hatty would also be only of few turns more, but are anyway not that good.

Good thing: initial alphabet trading went well, with math,BW right away and poly, IW next turn.
Could trade for philosophy.

One engineer settled, then 3 GS (at less than 100% odds obviously).

Bad: no religion until astronomy and had to go out of free religion to organized to convert Isa to the religion that spread from the other continent.

+2 You gave us tribute ;)

I figured I had to do it myself, so I also tried Erkons map:

Hunting-Masonry-Wheel-AH-Writing-Fishing (this has to be suboptimal...)-Alpha T65
Worker-Warrior-Pyramids T39-Library-WB-WB (or the other way around, can't remember)
Liberalism was possible 125 BC, but I had traded to little so I had to self-research most of Machinery and Optics first. Took Astronomy with Liberalism 50 AD. More clever trading should have avoided this delay.
Communism 620 AD, choice between Mansa and Isabella. I had been setting Isabella up since a long time. 1610 Domination. Isa was a slow researcher...


Edit: Btw, the fact that Isabella is not creative had absolutely zero impact. She was very competent at generating lots of culture in captured cities.

I think I know what you're driving at. The question is: Can the Pyramids significantly speed up our PA? We haven't really done enough testing to be able to rule that possibility out. Let's loook at it this way. klarius got a PA on T133. You're getting ALphabet on ~T60, but not able to DoW until Literature at the earliest around T70, but better with Drama at T80. That gives you 53 turns to improve upon klarius' Alpha bee-line. Getting the 40 turns of common war in 53 turns is iffy, let alone doing it faster.

In addition to that we have the Risk factor:

We have one case in which the AI finished the Pyramids before we can hope to do it.
We know that we don't get ALpha till ~T60, at which time it's very difficult to cause a DoW, so we're delaying our ability to control our destiny until we reearch Drama (we don't want to trade Literature too soon). Suppose our danger zone for getting terminally DoWed starts on T20. We then change that 'window of opportunity' from 25 turns to 40-50 turns at least. Hmm...
Not getting Alpha till T60, we also dont' have BW till then, so we have no defenses.
As soon as we get BW we're more or less forced to divert our production into building a couple of axes, just in case.
The Pyramids Gambit depends on Deer, which we have no certainty we'll hold onto till we get Fishing from Alpha.
EDIT: CRC is NOT on our exact path. They are at Power 7 on T22. We'll be at Power 9 on T20. Either they researched some combination of hunting and masonry and built a warrior while growing to pop 2 (my guess) or they followed our research path but built a worker from the start or something else. In any case, I say, let's do it our way! Game on!!!

Good analysis. Some comments:

I don't know what you mean by "iffy", but the 40 turns of shared war is absolutely no problem at all if we are looking at ~600 AD PA. We can join an existing was as soon as we have alpha, and bring in some further allies at little cost. If we wan't to start a new war it takes a little longer, true.

The Pyramids are built T39 using Deer, Stone, Marble. If Deer is not available we can use Sheep to the same effect. So, no, we are not depending on the Deer for very long. Once we have the Pyramids we are generating a high cultural pressure and will reclaim any contested tiles in our BFC.

Seems I have played Devil's advocate long enough now. If I don't hear anything more in 20 minutes I will start playing. According to the PPP, so no Pyramids for those who wonder... :)

Seems I have played Devil's advocate long enough now. If I don't hear anything more in 20 minutes I will start playing. According to the PPP, so no Pyramids for those who wonder... :)
Well, it's about time :). I finally want to know who our neighbors really are.

Turnset report:

Turn 0, 4000 BC:
Move warrior SW.
Settle in place. Start on warrior while working grass forest. Research Fishing (6t)

Turn 1, 3960 BC:
Move warrior SE. Spot blue border to the S, looks like Roosevelt or Washington.

Turn 2, 3920 BC:
Warrior SE passing mountain range. Two gold hills spotted.

Turn 3, 3880 BC:
Warrior S.
Meet Asoka, Tokugawa, Washington.

Turn 4, 3840 BC:
Warrior SE.
Asoka is going to settle next to our warrior. Looks like a great spot with floodplains and 2 gold. Asoka might become one of the top civs.

Turn 5, 3800 BC:
Damn! Washingtons border expand and Asoka settles Bombay on the flood plains. Our exploring warrior is thrown back north. He goes NE and spots coast.
Border expansion, 2nd warrior finished, switch to worker working Deer. 2nd warrior goes SW to explore as I assume warrior #1 cannot pass before open borders.
White border spotted to the west. Could be England or Germany.

Turn 6, 3760 BC:
Fishing in, switch to workboat.
Warrior 1 moving towards the coast, warrior 2 sw towards a gap between Washingtons culture and a mountain.

Turn 7, 3720 BC:
Meet Elizabeth.
Warrior 1 at a dead end, will return home for garrison duty.

Turn 8, 3680 BC:
Warrior 2 finds passage blocked by culture. We won't be meeting any other AIs until we or someone else has writing. :(
Buddhism FIDL.

Turn 9, 3640 BC:
Nothing special...
This is the known world:
175578
And the relations:
175579

Turn 10, 3600 BC:
Find York, so Lizzie has two cities. And Marble inside cultural border.


I am going to take a short break here. There shouldn't be anything that needs to be changed in our strategy, but our Captains says we should have a mid-turn break. I do as our clowncaptain tells me.

lol. Not exactly what he meant, I don't think. But I guess there's nothing to discuss. Pyramid route is looking strong, with all those happies around, especially with the culture from the mids getting the silver. Oh well. The wheel would connect us qickly to Wasdington for one of his golds too. Is it too late to consider switching?

Doesn't look like we will be fighting any culture battles, except over the sheep once an AI settles on the ice peninsula. Cleverly placed mountains by Gyathaar. :)

Glad it's Washington rather then Roosevelt. Don't need him building wonders in our face.

There is still a chance to meet somebody else.
The gold hill n of Bombay allows eye contact to the hill 2 SE. Not that it helps much :lol:.

lol. Not exactly what he meant, I don't think. But I guess there's nothing to discuss. Pyramid route is looking strong, with all those happies around, especially with the culture from the mids getting the silver. Oh well. The wheel would connect us qickly to Wasdington for one of his golds too. Is it too late to consider switching?

It is still possible. Hunting-Masonry-Wheel-AH-Writing-Alpha. Worker starts by quarrying and connecting stone while we build a second WB. Then the Mids.

Should I stop now and let us consider this option?

There is still a chance to meet somebody else.
The gold hill n of Bombay allows eye contact to the hill 2 SE. Not that it helps much :lol:.Definitely station a look-out there, while we have that chance

It is still possible. Hunting-Masonry-Wheel-AH-Writing-Alpha. Worker starts by quarrying and connecting stone while we build a second WB. Then the Mids.

Should I stop now and let us consider this option?Maybe it wouldn't hurt. These three AIs all seem like the type klarius was warning us about. Only attack the nearby wimps, like us.

Edit: Okay, I'm signing off for today. Good luck if you decide to go on.

I think Gnejs can carry on according to the PPP. Our borders will expand on T45, and Liza wont settle before, so Sheep should not be under threat. Perhaps there will be battle of the silver, but we will win in the start and in the end.

There is no need to risk anything, so I prefer the early-alpha as we have planned.

I don't think I dare to continue when LC has voiced his concern. <Remembers LC's wrath over the Oracle in Timbuktu last game> (shudder) :p

Maybe it wouldn't hurt. These three AIs all seem like the type klarius was warning us about. Only attack the nearby wimps, like us.
Which is why I didn't want the pyramids route.
Asoka and Washington don't attack at pleased (Liz does but with very low probability).
Pleased should be easy enough to achieve with alpha.

Which is why I didn't want the pyramids route.
Asoka and Washington don't attack at pleased (Liz does but with very low probability).
Pleased should be easy enough to achieve with alpha.

Makes sense. I am going to pause here anyway as it is getting late. Expect to resume tomorrow evening. On the Alpha path, unless the general opinion swings overnight. :)

Let me know if you want me to upload the save. I see no reason to, it will only tell the other teams what we are up to.

Doesn't look like we will be fighting any culture battles, except over the sheep once an AI settles on the ice peninsula. Cleverly placed mountains by Gyathaar. :)
Well there is still the cow and our fur. Together with a FP and lots of forest - a nice place to settle for the AI.

I don't think I dare to continue when LC has voiced his concern. <Remembers LC's wrath over the Oracle in Timbuktu last game> (shudder) :p
I'm back. Go on ahead, Gnejs. We started this, might as well continue. (tonight or tomorrow, as you wish)
Which is why I didn't want the pyramids route.
Asoka and Washington don't attack at pleased (Liz does but with very low probability).
Pleased should be easy enough to achieve with alpha.RIght. The way I worded that it looked like I was giving an argument for Pyramids, but I was actually giving one against...:crazyeye:

EDIT: I agree on not uploading.

Well there is still the cow and our fur. Together with a FP and lots of forest - a nice place to settle for the AI.Or between the marble and the furs. I woldn't be surprised if we get squeezed from all sides. :)

Blue dot - where Washington likes to settle
Pink dot - where Asoka likes to settle

Note plot distance 5 from the nearest city is very important. After that lots of resources in the fat cross, while enough food. Wood isn't hurting either.
Tiles owned by us is also counting negative, but far down the list.

No, unless you count a totally different research and build order... :lol:

I am not playing until at least one other team member has had a go at the Pyramids track.... :p

FiveAces, will you play with the pointy buildings tonight?

Yes I did last night ;) and the result was interesting:

Well like Erkon suggested, I tried a game with the Pyramids on his map. I played fast (which showed) and I don’t usually build them (which also showed). I stopped after steel since it was getting late.

I figured I’d try something different – I didn’t chop them since we have that nice deer tile to work now.

Tech: mas-wheel-hunting-AH (t35)-writ(45)-alpha(61)-drama(1t)-lit(68)-drama-CoL(80)-CS-paper(100)-edu(225bc, forgot turn)-philo-Lib(122-150AD!!!)-PP(130)-sci meth-(131)-comm(142-620AD, Cathy ready, Izzy needed a few more turns)
Worker: Stone-deer-furs-sheep-marble
Build: war-wor-pyr-lib(t53)-barracks(4t)-wb-wb-GLib-barracks(1t, finished)-theater-Globe

I popped 4 GS – academy(t65), 1edu, 2 sci meth.

I got sci meth in 1 turn with 2GS. I didn’t optimize very well after Lib. I also made a major screwup and forgot to turn the sci slider from 90-100 after Globe. So the comm date could have been improved upon.

A couple significant things to note:

I didn’t research BW or fishing. Yet look at the turn/dates for the library, academy, edu and liberalism and to some extent communism – those all compare favorably with our non-pyramids games, even though I played fast, and made some mistakes. That really, really surprised me.

I know, and I am also in favour of our early Alpha strategy. But I would like to see how a successful Pyramids strategy compares with a successful Alpha strategy. As it is now we have many succesful Alpha trial games on a bunch of different maps and one single successful Pyramids game on one single map. If Pyramids in general beat Alpha then we are going to lose to those teams that avoid an early DoW due to either skill or luck. On the other hand, if both strategies equally good or even Alpha is better then we are doing the right thing going for the less risky strategy.

Based on my experience I would say a good pyramids game would compare well with a good alpha game, but not be significantly faster in terms of getting the PA.

EDIT: ok got to the end of the thread. Looks like klarius and I had comparable results with the 'mids, but not better than the alpha route. Will be online until ~2PM GMT. Gnejs's turnset looking good so far.

Let's hope that Asoka founds Hinduism before he settles Pink Dot (if at all). Would be nice to get an early religion spread. Washington looks to be getting squeezed like orange juice in Madrid.

Well, they should bomb. But that doesn't solve the problem how we get them to get a holy or wonder city in the first place (other cities they will raze overseas unless it is the last city of that civ).
And if we get to this position it might still be that no tiles at all are gained by the bomb, because the enemy culture is so high (note: wonder or holy city).
But, OK we could kill this civ then after. That's a lot of ifs. I rather say we wait first and hope for our continent being enough :).

If we get to the point needing overseas holdings it might well be faster if we just raze cities on our own and hope for a settler from our ally.

Back in business again.

Has anywone tried a space victory? Are we sure it is the best option if the continent is not big enough?

I like it because it requires GSs, just like domination, sowe don't need to change gears, as would happen with a cultural victory. But I am not sure how fast we can get to space.

One benefit of the Alpha bee-line is earlier Writing/OBs/exploration of our continent. Gyathaar has cut us off. That means we'll have about 15 turns to meet everyone and explore our continent if we want that info before Alpha. How important is that? Do we want to make the scout klarius made in his first 450ad attempt?

We have an alternative. If we wait to meet people till we have Alpha, then gifting Writing will, in my experience, get us +4 with most AIs. Maybe klarius can fill us in on those mechanics. Using that with the right AI may be a golden pass to DoW with Alpha on the next turn.

First conclusion from the diplomacy screen:
Liz is cautious with Asoka, so she has less than +3 hidden modifier.
That means their PeaceWeight differs more than the standard 1.
So Liz has drawn a bigger random at game start than Asoka.

Asoka is pleased with Washington, but not the other way round. Considering Asokas BetterRankAttitudeChange of 3 and 18 players that means Asoka is at least 7 places ahead of Washington in the ranking.

BTW, so I don't have to repeat all this stuff:
Explanations in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204328).

Back in business again.

Has anywone tried a space victory? Are we sure it is the best option if the continent is not big enough?

I like it because it requires GSs, just like domination, sowe don't need to change gears, as would happen with a cultural victory. But I am not sure how fast we can get to space.

I have using klarius IIRC 450ad communism. Finished 1816 but I PA'd with Hatty (not a cottage builder) and didn't expand her further from the cities she had at the PA. I think that date can be significantly improved upon.

I'm not sure it's the best fallback option either. If our continent isn't big enough, it's going to be close (or at least we'll know that very quickly after OB) and I think we can find a holy/wonder city on the other continent and get that quicker than space. But we'll have to see. If we need something like 5 overseas cities for dom, then we're gonna have to consider space. Or conquest?

We have an alternative. If we wait to meet people till we have Alpha, then gifting Writing will, in my experience, get us +4 with most AIs. Maybe klarius can fill us in on those mechanics.
Well, the information is already somewhere hidden in my posts in this thread :p.
Fair trade points is value of gifts divided by ((HasMetCounter+1)*5).
If you know somebody one turn a value of 40g is enough to get the full +4. That's a well known trick to get somebody to a good attitude on the first turn met.

The ~200 value of writing (if they haven't started to research it, which is unlikely for most :crazyeye:) is good enough for ~40 turns knowing them per point.

We should be OK still with starting to meet people with writing (our direct neighbors are a different story and Toku is probably already a lost cause).
But I still would like to know all at alphabet. That's indeed an argument for a scout to complete with writing as a single warrior will not be fast enough.

I support scout to know all at alpha. In addition to giving us full options for diplo-enhancing trades it will give us full options for tech trades, and much (exponentially?) better options in figuring out how to optimize between the two.

The library and academy will be delayed a few turns but hopefully that will be offset by enhanced trade value at alpha. EDIT: I mean if we're lucky we'll be able to trade for poly on turn alpha+1.

I think we may have met our target AI to beat up on too.

I have always managed to meet all AI with one warrior, so I don't see the need for building a scout...

We can leave out the second work boat and camp the deer first. This will delay alphabet 1 turn probably, but not the library.

I have always managed to meet all AI with one warrior, so I don't see the need for building a scout...
I didn't on your map when boxed in until writing.
At least you don't know that you met all w/o pre-knowledge.

I didn't on your map when boxed in until writing.

Same here. In fact on your map I didn't meet Hatty for a long time since I was in a hurry to meet as many asap between OB and alpha and decided to take a risk that that there was no civ in that corner to save about 8 turns going up and back, and she got in a war with Cathy very early, meaning her units never found Beijing.

To know the periphery of our continent, hence domination tile count by Alpha, we need two units scouting. Somehow, I was thinking this has some relevance to our trading and DoWing but I can't remember what right now. Since no one repsonded to that part, I suppose no one else thinks it has any relevance, or?

Well, the information is already somewhere hidden in my posts in this thread :p.
Fair trade points is value of gifts divided by ((HasMetCounter+1)*5).
If you know somebody one turn a value of 40g is enough to get the full +4. That's a well known trick to get somebody to a good attitude on the first turn met.Sorry and thanks. I should have been able to figure that out. Not all that hidden.

To know the periphery of our continent, hence domination tile count by Alpha, we need two units scouting. Somehow, I was thinking this has some relevance to our trading and DoWing but I can't remember what right now. Since no one repsonded to that part, I suppose no one else thinks it has any relevance, or?

I don't think it has relevance to trading/DOWing at alpha. I believe our trades and research will be the same at and for a while after alpha for all VC's. We need a PA anyway, and for dom/space/conquest we would work that similarly. Culture would be a bit different though as we don't need them to have >2 cities.

Also, if you bring 2 units down the edges to outline the continent by alpha, do you have time to bring them up the middle to meet any landlocked AI by then too?

Culture would be a bit different though as we don't need them to have >2 cities.


Hey, they need to be able to build 2 cathedrals per religion!

The main difference in culture is the type of leader you want to PA with and the kind of GPeople you want after the first one.

I need to point something out based on what we've seen so far - Liz, Asoka, and Washington are all diplo-win friendly AI's. By that I mean they all like each other so you shouldn't normally get a TWTE penalty, they're relatively peaceful so they don't often war with each other, and they have mutually exclusive favorite civics. Toku is a pain, but he can be eliminated without diplo penalty from the others during a mutual war since no one usually likes him anyway.

I bring this up because the theoretical fastest possible VC for OCC deity is diplo (pre-1500 easily), and as long as it's theoretically possible we should keep it in mind. There's at least one team that has an excellent player who loves OCC diplo - and if they get it 1 or 2 votes after the UN, they will beat us if we are going for dom (assuming they go that way, of course, it's all really just speculation this early but after OB we'll have a much better idea).

I don't think it has relevance to trading/DOWing at alpha. I believe our trades and research will be the same at and for a while after alpha for all VC's. We need a PA anyway, and for dom/space/conquest we would work that similarly. Culture would be a bit different though as we don't need them to have >2 cities.I'm thinking in terms of who we decide to DoW and how many people we bring in and the various effects of all this on our strategy if our continent is too small.

Bingo! Okay, I just remembered one detail: If we trade for Meditation, then we can't bulb Optics before Philosphy. If our continent is too small, we may want to bee-line Optics to get to know others asap.

Also, if you bring 2 units down the edges to outline the continent by alpha, do you have time to bring them up the middle to meet any landlocked AI by then too?Well, of course you need to zigzag. We don't know how wide the continent is, the shape ofthe coasline, and where the Ais will have roads, but in general you only need to hit the coast every four-five tiles. (EDIT: Fog-gazing, you can even hit it less, if your only goal is to determine the DomTileCount).

Here's an idea for a PA with someone on the other continent: As soon as we find out our continent is too small, we could plan to lightbulb (1st or 2nd GS,not sure) Philosophy, so we can spread our religion to the potential partner.

Bingo! Okay, I just remembered one detail: If we trade for Meditation, then we can't bulb Optics before Philosphy. If our continent is too small, we may want to bee-line Optics to get to know others asap.

I don't think making a PA with a civ on the other continent is the right move if ours is to small. I think we'd win earlier staying the course on our own continent and going for space. But I might be wrong.

EDIT: Space if we can't get dom by our continent plus 1-some number of cities on the other.

There is one other reason why it's good to reveal the land early and that is to detect the resources, which will have an impact on the selection of PA-partner and victim. But do we really want to start the first war around T45-50? It seams a bit early, and will most probably only result in pillaging instead of cities switching ownership. The final tile count may be needed around T80? Then warrior and scout can then walk down the continent with 25% land outside each and 50% land between to ensure we meet all AI.

EDIT: TWTE = Traded With The Enemy (?)

There is one other reason why it's good to reveal the land early and that is to detect the resources, which will have an impact on the selection of PA-partner and victim. But do we really want to start the first war around T45-50? It seams a bit early, and will most probably only result in pillaging instead of cities switching ownership.

If we don't instigate a war with alpha, then we might not be able to instigate one until we've finished CS. Lit the advanced civs will take early (i.e. before we get drama if we've traded alpha aggressibely) for GLib, drama is not enough by itself, and the civs w/out Lit, CoL + drama by the time we get CoL might to be too backwards to be appealing PA targets.

But I'm not saying we have to instigate at alpha, or that we should. Heck, I think on the Erkon map game, Cathy DOW'd Cyrus before I researched alpha anyway.

The final tile count may be needed around T80? Then warrior and scout can then walk down the continent with 25% land outside each and 50% land between to ensure we meet all AI.

I would prefer to know if we have enough tiles for dom (we don't need complete count, just to know we're over the limit, or that we definitely won't be) by finish of CS, if possible. Because that might impact we bribe into war.

EDIT: TWTE = Traded With The Enemy (?)

Yes - I'll be more careful with the acronyms.

Hey, they need to be able to build 2 cathedrals per religion!

:eek: Doh! That's why you're the culture master! :worship:

Getting someone to DoW is also a defensive mechanism. As I understand it, the main reason to get to Alpha sooner than later is to avert the danger of AIs DoWing us. We want to do that by getting them Dowing in the other direction so we don't need to build units for defense. (Otherwise, we might as well go with the Pyramids, because they provide a lot more flexibility if our continent is too small.)

I bring this up because the theoretical fastest possible VC for OCC deity is diplo (pre-1500 easily), and as long as it's theoretically possible we should keep it in mind. There's at least one team that has an excellent player who loves OCC diplo - and if they get it 1 or 2 votes after the UN, they will beat us if we are going for dom (assuming they go that way, of course, it's all really just speculation this early but after OB we'll have a much better idea).Could you explain how you see it at the fastest theoretically? It seems to me to require the same techs as Domination plus a bunch more, so I don't get it.

EDIT: Okay, I see that WastinTime has 1220ad for DIplo and 1390ad for space, but that using his specialized maps. I can't open his saves but I'm assuming they're OOC but also that they're pangaea and not continents. We know that he's using just 6 AIs and that makes a huge difference for controlling the vote. I can't see how he'll get a quick vote in his favor without having pure luck that all AIs on our continent have 1 religion and Gyathaar having set up the map so that the other continent is extremely food-poor and thus low pop. Otherwise, he's in the same boat as Dominatin--having to war to achieve the DIplo vote

Looking at the diplo screen - Liz doesn't know Toku. So he is probably below Bombay and there's an unknown civ below Liz.

I think we want alpha asap to get Washington pleased. He looks like he's gonna either gonna get boxed in pretty quickly or right up against us.

Could you explain how you see it at the fastest theoretically? It seems to me to require the same techs as Domination plus a bunch more, so I don't get it.

You are correct. Theoretically you can win dom the turn after you get communism and make the PA. What I meant was that we can build the UN earlier than the dom times we have been achieving in our test games.

What I meant was that we can build the UN earlier than the dom times we have been achieving in our test games.Okay. I get it.Theoretically you can win dom the turn after you get communism and make the PA. Hmmm... now that sounds like a plan.

Gnejs, did you read that? You and your entire manliness are hereby challenged and thereby threatened.

Speaking of WastinTime and theoreitically best results. He never uses the Pyramids, does he? Doesn't he always do the ALpha bee-line, etc.?

There is one other reason why it's good to reveal the land early and that is to detect the resources, which will have an impact on the selection of PA-partner and victim. But do we really want to start the first war around T45-50? It seams a bit early, and will most probably only result in pillaging instead of cities switching ownership.

Not if we set up a 3-on-1 war, which is quite easy to do. If we have copper or Iron we should also be prepared to gift it to our potential PA partner. I did this with Isabella in the last test game. She was very quick in making use of it. :)

Not if we set up a 3-on-1 war, which is quite easy to do. If we have copper or Iron we should also be prepared to gift it to our potential PA partner. I did this with Isabella in the last test game. She was very quick in making use of it. :)I firmly believe that the only way we can significantly increase the military expansion of our future PA partner is by liberal use of catapults. Four cats protected by a Mace or Cho-ko-nu (or?) can almost guarantee our partner will capture one city after another. EDIT: Plus a couple follow-up cats for each city to replenish suiciders.

Okay. I get it.Hmmm... now that sounds like a plan.

Gnejs, did you read that? You and your entire manliness are hereby challenged and thereby threatened.


Oh no! My manliness is threatened! :hide:

By what, btw? :confused:



Domination 500 AD won't happen, because the AI is too stupid to research the right techs and wage wars successfully before we get to tell them how and when. But if all the early wars are lucky in that our to-be-ally gets to capture the cities then I wouldn't rule out a domination before 1200 AD. Maybe 1000 AD is possible but I doubt it.

:eek: Doh! That's why you're the culture master! :worship:

I ain't no culture master. The one and only culture master is the same person that loves OCC diplo.

EDIT: Okay, I see that WastinTime has 1220ad for DIplo and 1390ad for space, but that using his specialized maps. I can't open his saves but I'm assuming they're OOC but also that they're pangaea and not continents. We know that he's using just 6 AIs and that makes a huge difference for controlling the vote. I can't see how he'll get a quick vote in his favor without having pure luck that all AIs on our continent have 1 religion and Gyathaar having set up the map so that the other continent is extremely food-poor and thus low pop. Otherwise, he's in the same boat as Dominatin--having to war to achieve the DIplo vote

He used no wars for that record. All peaceful AI, OCC, shared civics, shared religion, the opponent is the hated one, made the trick. Pangea like: inland sea.

Oh no! My manliness is threatened! :hide:

By what, btw? :confused:By the Wimp of the Millenium plaque you're going to get if we fail to dominate 1 turn after Communism.

Okay, here's an idea:

We do it your way, dogpiling the wimpy AIs so that we have a handful of powerful AIs that like us when we research CS. We then do the usual trades at that point to get MW, Machinery, Engineering, or whatever it is. We check to see which of our friends now has Maces. That's it. Combine with a handful of our cats (we just recently traded for Construction), we go to town.

Maces plus cats = No more Asoka, no more Lizzy, no more Washington, no more whoever.

I firmly believe that the only way we can significantly increase the military expansion of our future PA partner is by liberal use of catapults. Four cats protected by a Mace or Cho-ko-nu (or?) can almost guarantee our partner will capture one city after another. EDIT: Plus a couple follow-up cats for each city to replenish suiciders.

To spite you, let me suggest at least one alternative way: :p

We can focus exclusively on research and lightbulbing, to get a tech advantage that lets our AI steamroll over the other civs. There are four key techs here:

1. Chemistry. The AI will mass upgrade maces and longbows to Grenadiers. If this happens before the target has Gunpowder they will be slaughtered. IIRC correctly nothing upgrades to Musketmen so there is still a window of opportunity after they get Gunpowder.

2. Steel. Cannons rule. Enough said.

3. Artillery. Rules more.

4. Assembly line. Some targets will make it to Rifling and suddenly have 20 Riflemen in their capital. We don't want our friend to waste too many Grenadiers on them.

Then there are a couple of outsiders, that may or may not be important:

5. Military tradition. Can work if there are horses. Unfortunately the AI will pillage like crazy.

6. Railroad. For quick transportation to and from different fronts.




:goodjob:

EDIT: Okay, I see that WastinTime has 1220ad for DIplo and 1390ad for space, but that using his specialized maps. I can't open his saves but I'm assuming they're OOC but also that they're pangaea and not continents. We know that he's using just 6 AIs and that makes a huge difference for controlling the vote. I can't see how he'll get a quick vote in his favor without having pure luck that all AIs on our continent have 1 religion and Gyathaar having set up the map so that the other continent is extremely food-poor and thus low pop. Otherwise, he's in the same boat as Dominatin--having to war to achieve the DIplo vote

Religion doesn't necessarily matter. You can use the first UN vote for Free Religion as a Global civic to remove the negative modifiers (as well as the positive ones). And don't forget is very likely most civs will be running FR anyway by the time we get MM.

Let's say there are 10 AI's on our continent (plus us):

known: Liz, Asoka, Wash, Toku
unknown: Fred, Mansa, Izzy, Saladin, Monty, Alex

Now say the following situation exists:
1) Toku, Monty, and Alex are eliminated by Liz, our PA partner - she has the greatest pop
2) The UN rival is on the other continent
3) Saladin, Izzy, and us share a religion
4) The others either share that religion or are in FR (very likely, unless Asoka founds hindu)
5) We run US, FM, and Theo

That's not an unrealistic scenario, esp if Liz is our PA partner. Our team is now on average +8 or better with everybody, and unless there's a ton of food on the other continent, we win. In fact we could probably get by without running Theo (e.g. partner with Izzy (#1 pop instead of Liz) and get Saladin's votes by +1 peace +2 OB (or the reverse, I forget) +4 tech trade +2 resources.

I think it's also possible to achieve +8 without the PA, but that's a lot trickier since you have to carefully manage who becomes the UN rival.

That's not an unrealistic scenario, esp if Liz is our PA partner. Our team is now on average +8 or better with everybody, and unless there's a ton of food on the other continent, we win.

Interesting! Just a quick comment: We can make gift Biology to all civs likely to vote for us. As the other continent is always terribly backwards compared to ours this should be helpful.

To spite you, let me suggest at least one alternative way: :pI'm talking about our future partner's expansion, in other words, before we get to Communism.

Here's a summary of my above idea:We bee-line CS and team up with the AI that bee-lines Machinery. Bingo!

Interesting! Just a quick comment: We can make gift Biology to all civs likely to vote for us. As the other continent is always terribly backwards compared to ours this should be helpful.

We have to research bio after MM then. The other prob AI won't have it otherwise, though we could help by freely gifting pre-reqs.

EDIT: and of course it could all go to a fiery hot place before CS if there's inter-AI wars and they don't like each other.

I'm talking about our future partner's expansion, in other words, before we get to Communism.

Here's a summary of my above idea:We bee-line CS and team up with the AI that bee-lines Machinery. Bingo!

I like that. I'll add that at least one of us needs iron.

EDIT: Gnejs what is your plan for finishing your turnset? Should I hang out at the office a bit longer?

That's not an unrealistic scenario, esp if Liz is our PA partner. Our team is now on average +8 or better with everybody, and unless there's a ton of food on the other continent, we win. In fact we could probably get by without running Theo (e.g. partner with Izzy (#1 pop instead of Liz) and get Saladin's votes by +1 peace +2 OB (or the reverse, I forget) +4 tech trade +2 resources.

I think it's also possible to achieve +8 without the PA, but that's a lot trickier since you have to carefully manage who becomes the UN rival.Deity has iAttitudeChange = -1 and Washington, for example, has iBaseAttitude = 0, so we'd need a common war or something to make that up. But that shouldn't be a problem as long as there's someone really weak on the other continent.

I like that. I'll add that at least one of us needs iron.

EDIT: Gnejs what is your plan for finishing your turnset? Should I hang out at the office a bit longer?Good point.

I shouldn't speak for Gnejs, but it looks like he's gone already. He usually plays at 10 pm, after his kids have gone to bed.

Good point.

I shouldn't speak for Gnejs, but it looks like he's gone already. He usually plays at 10 pm, after his kids have gone to bed.

Yup just noticed his green light went out. Ok I'm taking off. Will be back on tomorrow morning to see what's happened.

Diplomatic with a PA is pretty tricky.
First you have to take into acoount the hidden modifiers towards your partner.
Then you have the problem to control the actions of your partner. They might have acquired worst enemy penalties.
You can also not control their civics except by UN resolutions.
Several of the peaceful AIs need to be friendly to bribe them to war. That means in PA they have to be friendly with both.

Order, order! <knock knock knock>

I thought we've been through all this before we decided on Domination? Or perhaps I'm too thick to distinguish between these two discussions?? Or both??? :lol:

Instead of elaborating on different VCs, and while we wait while Gnejs-the-Horny is banging his beautiful wife (blame the kids! tut-tut) I would like to propose a challenge:

Present with words (not only numbers) the characteristics of Tokugawa, Elizabeth, Asoka and Washington.

I'll give it a try: Tokugawa does normally not want to trade away techs that are not already known by most AI. On the other hand, once you're friendly with him, he will trade even monopoly techs. He is pretty aggressive, and disliked by most, especially ??? (dang, where's the chart when I need it!).

Erkon, I could be wrong, but I believe the discussion is for a back-up plan in case the current island is too small for dom. and will need too many cities on the other island.

BTW, there was a comment about what time zone I was in. I am in US Central. IIRC, I am GMT-6 hours.

Order, order! <knock knock knock>

I thought we've been through all this before we decided on Domination? Or perhaps I'm too thick to distinguish between these two discussions?? Or both??? :lol:

Instead of elaborating on different VCs, and while we wait while Gnejs-the-Horny is banging his beautiful wife (blame the kids! tut-tut) I would like to propose a challenge:

Present with words (not only numbers) the characteristics of Tokugawa, Elizabeth, Asoka and Washington.

I'll give it a try: Tokugawa does normally not want to trade away techs that are not already known by most AI. On the other hand, once you're friendly with him, he will trade even monopoly techs. He is pretty aggressive, and disliked by most, especially ??? (dang, where's the chart when I need it!).We were just trying to keep the thread noise at a dull roar while you and Gnejs were knocking and banging. :scan:

As far as the repeated discussion you mentioned, could you please just link me to the post where someone reported their results from trying out the idea of teaming up with the AI that bee-lined Machinery. Thanks. Chump

As far as the repeated discussion you mentioned, could you please just link me to the post where someone reported their results from trying out the idea of teaming up with the AI that bee-lined Machinery. Thanks. Chump

Well, I never seen an AI beeline machinery with any decent speed. I'm halfway through paper when machinery comes up, sometimes even at education. That's much to late.

Well, I never seen an AI beeline machinery with any decent speed. I'm halfway through paper when machinery comes up, sometimes even at education. That's much to late.Much too late for what, to take down longbows?

...As far as the repeated discussion you mentioned, could you please just link me to the post where someone reported their results from trying out the idea of teaming up with the AI that bee-lined Machinery. Thanks. Chump

Hmm, and what AI prefers Machinery? Could it be Tokugawa? Or perhaps Elizabeth? Asoka or Washington? Get my point? :sarcasm:

It's just that I would like to shift our discussion into something that is closer at hand. Within two weeks we will know 8-10 AI's, and we'll probably spend 200+ posts discussion them. Me thinks we can start already now to characterize the four we now :crazyeye:

Enough of the pointless babble. Yes, I am looking at you, Erkon. :nono:

Continuing my turnset now. Did we say 20 turns? Counting from now? ;)

Turn 10, 3600 BC, continued:
Damnit! I must have been tired indeed last night to have missed it! Washington has a settler next to our Fur!

175659

Will we lose it if he settles there? We have culture on that tile, Washington has none. Erkon says no.


Turn 11, 3560 BC:
Washington settles New York SE of our Fur. Tile is now 95% chinese. Our southeastern warrior is now blocked from going home by American culture (oh, the horror!). I am starting to bring back the southwestern warrior before he is blocked as well. Pity, since there is an unclaimed tile visible past Elizabeths culture.
Murkyopolis will grow next turn.

Turn 12, 3520 BC:
Hunting finished, start on Animal Husbandry. Murkyopolis at pop 2 working Deer+Fur. WB will be completed next turn.
SE warrior moves onto Klarius Hill and meets Huyana Capac.
Relations:
175664

Turn 13, 3480 BC:
Work boat completed, continue on worker. Citizens on Deer and unimproved crab.

Turn 14, 3440 BC:
Crab netted. Washington has mined his gold and has gone to the top of the GNP graph. One AI city is already at size 5.

Turn 15, 3400 BC:
Oooh! Hinduism is founded in Bombay! Poor Washington may lose his gold.
SW warrior is going to have a peek on the ice peninsula before coming home.

Turn 16, 3360 BC:
Asoka and Huyana Capac adopts Hinduism. Washington adopts slavery. Ruh roh. :eek:
Ice peninsula has Fish, Crab and Clam. What a GP farm we could have had there...:cry:
A new look at the relations screen:
175667

Turn 17, 3320 BC:
Washingtons gold mine is down to 75% culture.

Turn 18, 3280 BC:
Total computer meltdown. I get funny stripes all over the screen and have to reboot. Probably it couldn't handle my Alt-tabbing...
Going to PM an admin before continuing. And yes, I do have autosaves every turn, AND manual saves every turn.

No staff online. Per Erkons orders I am playing on from the last autosave that happens to be called AutoSave_BC-3280.Civ4SavedGame.

Turn 19, 3240 BC:
...

Turn 20, 3200 BC:
Tokugawa adopts slavery.
Washington converts to Hinduism.
Worker completed and Animal Husbandry in. No horses visible anywhere.
Save uploaded.

Turn log:Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3200 BC:

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Murkyopolis has been founded.

Turn 4, 3840 BC: The borders of Murkyopolis have expanded!

Turn 5, 3800 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 7, 3720 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 11, 3560 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 12, 3520 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Worker.

Turn 14, 3440 BC: Hinduism has been founded in Bombay!

Turn 15, 3400 BC: Washington adopts Slavery!
Turn 15, 3400 BC: Asoka converts to Hinduism!
Turn 15, 3400 BC: Huayna Capac converts to Hinduism!

Turn 19, 3240 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 19, 3240 BC: Washington converts to Hinduism!
Turn 19, 3240 BC: Tokugawa adopts Slavery!

Autolog:
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)
Contact made: Indian Empire
Contact made: American Empire
Contact made: Japanese Empire
Murkyopolis's borders expand
Murkyopolis finishes: Warrior
Murkyopolis begins: Worker (10 turns)
Tech learned: Fishing
Research begun: Hunting (6 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Work Boat (8 turns)
Contact made: English Empire
Buddhism founded in a distant land

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 11/460 (3560 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:23:28]
Tech learned: Hunting
Murkyopolis grows: 2

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 12/460 (3520 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:28:25]
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (10 Turns)
Contact made: Incan Empire
Murkyopolis finishes: Work Boat

IBT:
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 13/460 (3480 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:34:04]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 14/460 (3440 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:39:13]

IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 15/460 (3400 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:44:04]

IBT:
State Religion Change: Asoka(India) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
State Religion Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 16/460 (3360 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:47:48]

IBT:

Turn 17/460 (3320 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:53:00]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 18/460 (3280 BC) [28-Apr-2008 22:55:11]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 19/460 (3240 BC) [28-Apr-2008 23:22:33]
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Murkyopolis finishes: Worker

IBT:
State Religion Change: Washington(America) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Washington(America), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Tokugawa(Japan) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 20/460 (3200 BC) [28-Apr-2008 23:23:44]
Research begun: Writing (12 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Work Boat (8 turns)

We will not loose it initially. Please restrict the number of report posts Sir :nono:

EDIT: What I really wanted to say was GOOD LUCK!!!

EDIT2: Southeastern warrior is enroute SW to hill, no?

EDIT3: Man, this will be interesting! Crowded map!!

EDIT4: Very interesting! I'll take a look at the save, then log off until Sunday night. Please behave. Don't do anything stupid. Please agree on a suitable turn set length for LC, and good luck if you decide to play before I'm back.

Good luck, Gnejs!


Hmm, and what AI prefers Machinery? Could it be Tokugawa? Or perhaps Elizabeth? Asoka or Washington? Get my point? :sarcasm:

It's just that I would like to shift our discussion into something that is closer at hand. Within two weeks we will know 8-10 AI's, and we'll probably spend 200+ posts discussion them. Me thinks we can start already now to characterize the four we now :crazyeye:The idea is to discuss it now so we have time to test it out in advance. It doesn't matter who likes to bee-line Machinery. What matters is that klarius tells us how to increase the likelihood of that happening and we do that. NO matter what it comes down to some sort of odds, so we pick several AIs to increase the odds that one will do it. Plus, if they're so slow at it, as klarius says, then we need to try to speed them up too. Although I don't think in the middle of paper is too slow becuase we need time to build and transport our cats anyway. Plus a mace defender or something like that.

Meanwhile, you go ahead an figure out what you're going to do with Toku. (how do you spell zilcho? :p)

EDIT1: Let's hope Washington doesn't have any copper or Huyana or TOku are close and powerless.

Turn 18, 3280 BC:
Total computer meltdown. I get funny stripes all over the screen and have to reboot. Probably it couldn't handle my Alt-tabbing...
Going to PM an admin before continuing. And yes, I do have autosaves every turn, AND manual saves every turn.Just be sure to tell the truth--Washington DoWed and capture our capital with an unpromoted warrior... :cry:

EDIT: Well played Gnejs! Onward and upward.

Very interesting! I'll take a look at the save, then log off until Sunday night. Please behave. Don't do anything stupid. Please agree on a suitable turn set length for LC, and good luck if you decide to play before I'm back.Have a good trip, Erkon!

Got it!

PPP -- do all the stuff we talked about, up to just befiore we trade CS to the AI with Machinery.

I'll be playing 20 minutes after Erkon logs off if no one objects...

Erkon, I could be wrong, but I believe the discussion is for a back-up plan in case the current island is too small for dom. and will need too many cities on the other island.

BTW, there was a comment about what time zone I was in. I am in US Central. IIRC, I am GMT-6 hours.

It's more of an "if the RNG gods and Gyanthaar are really nice to us and and we arrive at comm with the stars aligned and everybody loving both us and our PA target, let's not unintentionally do or have done anything ourselves that screws that possibility up."

But yeah, it's a backup plan. The continent will have to be big enough for dom to get the votes we need - the back-up would come into play if we decided we could tech from comm to MM and build UN before we could win a dom victory. But if we can get dom before 1300 as some of us are suggesting, I think that is fastest, hands down.

Gnejs - can you post latest screenshot of known world? thanks. EDIT: Please :goodjob:

The idea is to discuss it now so we have time to test it out in advance. It doesn't matter who likes to bee-line Machinery. What matters is that klarius tells us how to increase the likelihood of that happening and we do that. NO matter what it comes down to some sort of odds, so we pick several AIs to increase the odds that one will do it. Plus, if they're so slow at it, as klarius says, then we need to try to speed them up too. Although I don't think in the middle of paper is too slow becuase we need time to build and transport our cats anyway. Plus a mace defender or something like that.

The only thing I see that can speed up machinery, is a war while having metal casting and not monarchy. So maybe look for the first to get metal casting to get as ally.
But still, AI tech research is pretty unpredictable.

If we start wars too late there is the danger that the whole land shares a religion (I had this case) and we have trouble to find targets at all because all AI love each other.

Edit:
There is also the problem how to keep our potential partner happy w/o shared war, if we don't have shared religion or civics and he's not one of the most friendly.

The only thing I see that can speed up machinery, is a war while having metal casting and not monarchy. So maybe look for the first to get metal casting to get as ally.
But still, AI tech research is pretty unpredictable.

If we start wars too late there is the danger that the whole land shares a religion (I had this case) and we have trouble to find targets at all because all AI love each other.Okay, if that's what you meant by too late, then I understand. My idea was to start the wars as you and Gnejs have been doing, at Alpha. From that point on, we're trying to accumulate the common war turns and hope that our future partner is successful. The only thing I was trying to suggest was that maybe we actively help out before the PA and I was looking for an opportune moment where we could realistically do that without slowing down our research pace. Now I suspect you and Gnejs are even doing that, but I don't remember much discussion on that. In my games, I've noticed a production window where we could squeeze in a few cats right around the time Construction becomes available (although I haven't been building Globe Theater, so that may close that window). I was also thinking of the common strategies for conquest:

Very early: rush (warrior, archer, axe)
Early: Swords + Cats
Medium: Maces + Cats
Late: Grens + Cats/Cannons

and wondering if we could start our 'domination' at Maces + Cats, rather than Grens + Cats. Maybe prioritizing those cats will slow down the PA a few turns, but get us drastically closer to Domination when we get the PA. EDIT: It is also around this time that we first get Currency and can run 100% research at a deficit, financed by some trades for gold. EDIT2: IIRC, when we get CS we are also not in a big hurry to trade it, so we can also leverage trading it to only our selected AI(s), to give them even more of an advantage. We don't even need to trade for Machinery ourselves at that time--just MC to know who has Machinery.

Another reason to think this way is this: Some, if not all, of the top teams are going for Pyramids (see power graph). If they survive, that may give them the PA some turns sooner, but surely gives them Railroading sooner. If we survive, can we leverage anything from our alternative route? Well, the main lever we have, as I see it, is more hammers when they switch to Castes and 4-6 Scientists. That includes the Maces + Cats time period. So the way I see it, we have an advantage then and if we do it correctly, I don't think they can overcome it.

Gnejs - can you post latest screenshot of known world? thanks. EDIT: Please :goodjob:Here you go:

Got it.

(I actually got it last night, but I'm repeating it here since I also joked a bit in that post. Now I'm serious. Dead serious.)

Okay, I'll be preparing my turnset PPP later today. I don't see anything we havne't already discussed unless we want to consider researching Archery next. Comments?

Okay, I'll be preparing my turnset PPP later today. I don't see anything we havne't already discussed unless we want to consider researching Archery next. Comments?

Nobody has anything at his/her hands currently (note: ctrl click on the leader name to get the trade screen).
The lay of the land means we are currently not a so-called land target to anybody (needs 8 adjacent land tiles - we will get this with Washington only after both American cities have expanded, picking up a -1 close border).
That means only a max war preparation is possible (limited war only for land targets or when the AI has only one city). Between starting a max war preparation and the actual DoW are at least 10 turns.

Conclusion:
No to archery, unless Liz or Washington suddenly get their hands full.

Edit:
Another point towards the PPP:
If New York picks up religion or gets an obelisk in the next few turns, we will lose the furs about 13 turns later.

Conclusion:
No to archery, unless Liz or Washington suddenly get their hands full.

Edit:
Another point towards the PPP:
If New York picks up religion or gets an obelisk in the next few turns, we will lose the furs about 13 turns later.Okay.
1. How can I know that someone suddenly has their hands full before the trade screen shows cities? OKay, I get it--using ctrl-click. Thanks, didn't know about that before.
2. New York will get the culture sooner or later. SHould we focus on growth (deer and/or sheep) and work water tiles for commerce?

In my games, I've noticed a production window where we could squeeze in a few cats right around the time Construction becomes available (although I haven't been building Globe Theater, so that may close that window).
[cut]
and wondering if we could start our 'domination' at Maces + Cats, rather than Grens + Cats. Maybe prioritizing those cats will slow down the PA a few turns, but get us drastically closer to Domination when we get the PA. EDIT: It is also around this time that we first get Currency and can run 100% research at a deficit, financed by some trades for gold.

I've had a window for 5-6 maces/choku's even with building Pyramids and Globe along with everything else. It comes a bit later than you can trade for machinery, but the AI don't usually have longbows then and won't get muskets/grens for a while.

EDIT2: IIRC, when we get CS we are also not in a big hurry to trade it, so we can also leverage trading it to only our selected AI(s), to give them even more of an advantage. We don't even need to trade for Machinery ourselves at that time--just MC to know who has Machinery.

We might need to trade CS early for a DOW bribe or for currency, depending on how the technig plays out.

Another reason to think this way is this: Some, if not all, of the top teams are going for Pyramids (see power graph). If they survive, that may give them the PA some turns sooner, but surely gives them Railroading sooner. If we survive, can we leverage anything from our alternative route? Well, the main lever we have, as I see it, is more hammers when they switch to Castes and 4-6 Scientists. That includes the Maces + Cats time period. So the way I see it, we have an advantage then and if we do it correctly, I don't think they can overcome it.

I don't think Pyramids will make a tremendous difference at that point in the game - once Constitution becomes available, everybody can run Rep anyway. Losing the furs in the early game doesn't help us though.

One thing to keep in mind about our PA partner is if their favorite civic is HR they might be likely to stay in this for some time after Representation is available, which means from a teching perspective if we need RR they are not as an attractive PA target as an AI that favors Rep. klarius can you advise on when an HR-loving AI will convert to Representation? Is their preference a factor at all?

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T20-T34

Note: Stopping at T34 sets up the Alpha(~T45) turnset better.

Most important goals, actions, and intent: Research Writing, optimize improvements for library, alpha

BUILD QUEUE
Workboat(8t)
Scout (4t)
library (partial)

UNIT MOVES
Garrison W warrior.
Station SE warrior for scouting with OBs.

WORKER ACTIONS
Furs camp (2 mvmt + 4t)
Mine marble (1 mvmt + 4t)
Mine stone (partial)

CITY MM
T20-T24 as is
T25 switch deer to fur
T26 pop3; work deer
T27 wb done>scout
T28 2nd nets laid; switch deer to crabs
T29 ...
T30 Writing done>Alpha, OBs, send SE warrior scouting East coast (Toku dead-end--save scout for west coast. Or?)
T31 Scout done>library
T32 pop4; work marble mine
T33 ...
T34 ...

Probable alternative:
I can manage T45 alpha T41 library by leaving out the wb.
I just build the scout working clams with and w/o nets. Switch from unnetted clams to fur when camped. Switch to wb with 1 hammer to go, work now furs and both clams.
Switch back to scout turn 8 to get the overflow into library and still continue with 2 clams and furs.
Meanwhile the worker mines stone, then camps deer.
After growth to 4 add stone mine. When deer camped switch from unnetted clams to deer.


DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Keep the peace
Open borders immediately

TRADE SCREEN ACTIONS
Monitor AI war plans each turn
Monitor AI attitudes for shifts each turn

OTHERS
Research: Writing>Alpha (partial)
Civic change: None
Religion change: Will stop and discuss if religion spreads.
Mid-turnset break: T29 after Writing complete
Monitor NY each turn for an obelisk or religion spread.

Notes: I tested different variations and the safest route I found, considering we might lose the furs at any time, is furcamp>marblemine>stonemine because this enables us to get the library done fastest and still get ALpha on T45 (T46?). Please let me know if anyone finds a better sequence.

Okay.

2. New York will get the culture sooner or later. SHould we focus on growth (deer and/or sheep) and work water tiles for commerce?
Well the question is sooner or later. If it's only around T32 we will be able to defend the furs. We will anyway get it back at some time after our second expansion.

But with Bombay only 5 tiles away, it's pretty likely that the religion spreads before.
Then we will anyway not make T45 for alphabet and could look for alternatives.
We definitely don't need both sheep and deer.
But we could still leave out the wb, improve deer and build a scout. Or even use the wb for scouting along the western coast while the warrior goes down in the east.

If New York picks up religion or gets an obelisk in the next few turns, we will lose the furs about 13 turns later.Okay. I think the camp is worth it, but I'm not sure. We should be able to get some idea of where the obelisk would be with some more info from Gnejs, right?
New York settled on T11, worked the river plains, which got farmed on T20. It has 3 archers garrisoned.

It'll grow to pop2 on T??.
Gnejs, did NY build an archer or receive all three?
We know that Washington researched Mng>BW, finishing on T15 and switching to slavery for a 1 turn revolt. He's making a ton of gold so ifhe researched Mysticism next, it's probably done.

How much time will he need to finish an obelisk, starting now?

EDIT: Crosspost. He needs to get teh religion in the next two turns to have expansion before T32, right? I think we're good to go then. I'm pretty sure we get Alpha by T45, no matter what.

One thing to keep in mind about our PA partner is if their favorite civic is HR they might be likely to stay in this for some time after Representation is available, which means from a teching perspective if we need RR they are not as an attractive PA target as an AI that favors Rep. klarius can you advise on when an HR-loving AI will convert to Representation? Is their preference a factor at all?
They will not give up HR for representation unless their cities are very big (>20).
But anyway where's the problem. At the time Representation is available we should have tons of shared war points and don't need favorite civics.
In fact in my games I usually had the PA already before anybody had constitution.

They will not give up HR for representation unless their cities are very big (>20).
But anyway where's the problem. At the time Representation is available we should have tons of shared war points and don't need favorite civics.
In fact in my games I usually had the PA already before anybody had constitution.

Sorry I wasn't clear - I wasn't considering shared civics for making the PA. I was responding to LC's concern about needing to research to RR and making the observation that everything else being equal if we partner with an AI running Representation we'll tech faster than if he/she runs HR.

EDIT: Crosspost. He needs to get teh religion in the next two turns to have expansion before T32, right? I think we're good to go then. I'm pretty sure we get Alpha by T45, no matter what.
No I meant culture expansion T41, starting to generate culture T31 as problematic. OK, that extreme will only let us lose the furs for 0-1 turns probably.
OK, let's try a real example.
Religion spreads T25, no obelisk as Washington still refuses to learn myst.
Culture expansion T35 plot culture in fur 20 (10*(1+1)) to our 90 (30*(2+1)).
He's then generating 19 plot culture more (22-3) so T39 he has the furs.

No I meant culture expansion T41, starting to generate culture T31 as problematic. OK, that extreme will only let us lose the furs for 0-1 turns probably.
OK, let's try a real example.
Religion spreads T25, no obelisk as Washington still refuses to learn myst.
Culture expansion T35 plot culture in fur 20 (10*(1+1)) to our 90 (30*(2+1)).
He's then generating 19 plot culture more (22-3) so T39 he has the furs.I have us getting Library on T40 following what I think is the optimum path, so that wouldn't be a problem in the least. From then on I was working 2 scientists and the two crabs to get Alpha on T45. That uses both mines and rushes the library once the stone mine is complete. We get more beakers, hammers into a worker, and :gp: at the cost of some food and the sheep not getting pastured completely.

I'm pretty sure your PPP does not allow alpha T45. Even writing will be T30 not T29.

But alpha T45 needs really every beaker, so as we have to expect to lose some with the furs it's probably not possible.

I'm pretty sure your PPP does not allow alpha T45. Even writing will be T30 not T29.

But alpha T45 needs really every beaker, so as we have to expect to lose some with the furs it's probably not possible.I see what you mean now. This is weird, I've been using a 3200bc save I had that for some reason has everything the same (food, wb, worker, etc.) except there are already 15:science: into Writing. NOt sure how I did that. Maybe because I knew more AIs or something?

I see what you mean now. This is weird, I've been using a 3200bc save I had that for some reason has everything the same (food, wb, worker, etc.) except there are already 15:science: into Writing. NOt sure how I did that. Maybe because I knew more AIs or something?

Did you work the crabs for 5 turns instead of the deer to maximize commerce? That's 15:science:

EDIT: IIRC your PPP matches one of my test games - you should get alpha at t46-47 depending on if-when we lose the furs.

EDIT2: I forgot to say, I like your PPP. I agree to send the scout down the W side. klarius Does it matter what order we OB as to how trade routes are allocated? i.e. if we OB with Askoa first does that maximize the chance of us or him establishing a trade route (now or later) between our city and Bombay?

klarius Does it matter what order we OB as to how trade routes are allocated? i.e. if we OB with Askoa first does that maximize the chance of us or him establishing a trade route (now or later) between our city and Bombay?

Nothing to do with sequence or anything. The game allocates the best possible trade routes by just going down the list of cities. And BTW trade routes are not bidirectional. If we have a trade route with Bombay, Bombay may have a trade route with Cuzco instead, if that gives more income.

Ok, why you asked is probably because of another piece of folklore that trade routes would have something to do with religion spread. Nope.
Just trade connection is necessary for automatic spread.
Open borders does not help except to let missionaries in. :)

Okay. I think the camp is worth it, but I'm not sure. We should be able to get some idea of where the obelisk would be with some more info from Gnejs, right?
New York settled on T11, worked the river plains, which got farmed on T20. It has 3 archers garrisoned.

It'll grow to pop2 on T??.
Gnejs, did NY build an archer or receive all three?
We know that Washington researched Mng>BW, finishing on T15 and switching to slavery for a 1 turn revolt. He's making a ton of gold so ifhe researched Mysticism next, it's probably done.


There were two archers there when he settled. Later there were three. Are we allowed to look at old saves? If we are I could check these things. But somehow I doubt that this is allowed...

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T20-T34

Note: Stopping at T34 sets up the Alpha(~T45) turnset better.

Most important goals, actions, and intent: Research Writing, optimize improvements for library, alpha

BUILD QUEUE
Workboat(8t)
Scout (4t)
library (partial)

UNIT MOVES
Garrison W warrior.
Station SE warrior for scouting with OBs.

WORKER ACTIONS
Furs camp (2 mvmt + 4t)
Mine marble (1 mvmt + 4t)
Mine stone (partial)

CITY MM
T20-T24 as is
T25 switch deer to fur
T26 pop3; work deer
T27 wb done>scout
T28 2nd nets laid; switch deer to crabs
T29 ...
T30 Writing done>Alpha, OBs, send SE warrior scouting East coast (Toku dead-end--save scout for west coast. Or?)
T31 Scout done>library
T32 pop4; work marble mine
T33 ...
T34 ...

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Keep the peace
Open borders immediately

TRADE SCREEN ACTIONS
Monitor AI war plans each turn
Monitor AI attitudes for shifts each turn

OTHERS
Research: Writing>Alpha (partial)
Civic change: None
Religion change: Will stop and discuss if religion spreads.
Mid-turnset break: T29 after Writing complete
Monitor NY each turn for an obelisk or religion spread.

Notes: I tested different variations and the safest route I found, considering we might lose the furs at any time, is furcamp>marblemine>stonemine because this enables us to get the library done fastest and still get ALpha on T45 (T46?). Please let me know if anyone finds a better sequence.

Is it possible to micromanage for getting both scout and writing done on T30? And would this give us a library one turn faster?

Why mine the marble? Isn't it better to mine the stone first? We are in no hurry to get a stone quarry, but a marble quarry will be among the first tasks for our worker after Alpha.

There were two archers there when he settled. Later there were three. Are we allowed to look at old saves? If we are I could check these things. But somehow I doubt that this is allowed...Of course you can look at old saves. That's why I save them. YOu just can't play them forward, of course. Same as always, no irreversible moves.

Is it possible to micromanage for getting both scout and writing done on T30? And would this give us a library one turn faster?

Why mine the marble? Isn't it better to mine the stone first? We are in no hurry to get a stone quarry, but a marble quarry will be among the first tasks for our worker after Alpha.I don't have a save to test it precisely with, because mine has 15:science: too much. I can definitely get the scout done a turn earlier. I was slowing it down to produce more commerce. Since it looks like we can't manage T45 anyway, we may have some beakers to spare.

I can manage T45 alpha T41 library by leaving out the wb.
I just build the scout working clams with and w/o nets. Switch from unnetted clams to fur when camped. Switch to wb with 1 hammer to go, work now furs and both clams.
Switch back to scout turn 8 to get the overflow into library and still continue with 2 clams and furs.
Meanwhile the worker mines stone, then camps deer.
After growth to 4 add stone mine. When deer camped switch from unnetted clams to deer.
After library completes 2 scientists with both clams or clam and deer at slight starvation.

Attach a save which should have the same state as our real one.

Please remind me, how do the research discounts for known AIs that have the tech work? We have met quite few AI compared to some of the test games. Could this be a reason for LCs missing 15 beakers?

Please remind me, how do the research discounts for known AIs that have the tech work? We have met quite few AI compared to some of the test games. Could this be a reason for LCs missing 15 beakers?
18 civs means 30/18 % = 5/3 % per civ rounded down.
6 civs known and knowing a tech is 10% that may have been a bpt on hunting.
AH we researched at 13 bpt so 5 civs will give one bpt (quite possible as all have both prerequisites).

I can manage T45 alpha T41 library by leaving out the wb.
I just build the scout working clams with and w/o nets. Switch from unnetted clams to fur when camped. Switch to wb with 1 hammer to go, work now furs and both clams.
Switch back to scout turn 8 to get the overflow into library and still continue with 2 clams and furs.
Meanwhile the worker mines stone, then camps deer.
After growth to 4 add stone mine. When deer camped switch from unnetted clams to deer.
After library completes 2 scientists with both clams or clam and deer at slight starvation.

Attach a save which should have the same state as our real one.

Brilliant, klarius! :goodjob:

The "cost" seems to be that we connect the fur 1-2 turns before growing to pop 5. Assuming we get to keep the fur that long, of course.

Brilliant, klarius! :goodjob:

The "cost" seems to be that we connect the fur 1-2 turns before growing to pop 5. Assuming we get to keep the fur that long, of course.
We can (and should to speed up wb) then sacrifice a few scientist turns after alphabet to grow faster. So the cost is really some scientist turns and by that a small delay on academy.
I don't think that's a lot. In my top game I didn't use library scientists at all, but build academy only with GLib scientists, to get up granary and lighthouse fast.

Edit:
There is still a little margin on beakers in my method. I'm still looking for a way to do it with library on T40.

We can (and should to speed up wb) then sacrifice a few scientist turns after alphabet to grow faster. So the cost is really some scientist turns and by that a small delay on academy.
I don't think that's a lot. In my top game I didn't use library scientists at all, but build academy only with GLib scientists, to get up granary and lighthouse fast.

True.

One thing I have been thinking about is whether we should use the first GS on an academy or if we should lightbulb Philosophy instead. Assuming that we have a religion and can run Pacifism this may be more beaker-efficient than doing it the other way around. I haven't checked the timing of it though.

Of course you can look at old saves. That's why I save them. YOu just can't play them forward, of course. Same as always, no irreversible moves.

2. The list of saves should not be a regular place for you to visit as a team member. You should not be going back to look at old saves during the game.


Guess you will have to change your habits on this. :(

There is still a little margin on beakers in my method. I'm still looking for a way to do it with library on T40.I see no margin without furs from T41 and if we lose them T40 or earlier I seee you needing extra beakers to still make T45.

And the cost is more than what Gnejs mentioned. wb>scout(T30) is 8 beakers short of T45 and I can't find them anywhere, but it also has the wb done, +6:gp: without any need to sacrifice more, and 20h into a wkr on T45. The second worker will come in handy. Do you think the timing of Alpha is that critical?

I see no margin without furs from T41 and if we lose them T40 or earlier I seee you needing extra beakers to still make T45.

And the cost is more than what Gnejs mentioned. wb>scout(T30) is 8 beakers short of T45 and I can't find them anywhere, but it also has the wb done, +6:gp: without any need to sacrifice more, and 20h into a wkr on T45. The second worker will come in handy. Do you think the timing of Alpha is that critical?
Yes!
And I don't see the second worker needed at all, BTW.

Yes!
And I don't see the second worker needed at all, BTW.Okay. Let me know if you make any more improvements and I'll revise my PPP tomorrow. Thanks for the save.

Guess you will have to change your habits on this. :(Guess again. ;)
I can't figure out what this is in response to, but I definitely would like a clarifcation. In any Civ game I play, I make saves and refer back to them to check to see changes in status. I might want to see how AI attitudes have changed or when a border expansion happened, or what units an AI had in a city that my scouting was looking into.

Can you possibly be saying that's a no no?

Doing that is allowed, but the same rules apply to playing forward from there as for (p)replaying from a current save: DON'T DO IT. Given that, and given that the uploaded saves are only letting you take a peek every ten turns, on average, the amount of useful information to be gleaned is somewhat limited. So we as the staff would not expect to see old saves downloaded often, no.Yes, of course--no irreversible actions. I'm not even talking abut downloading, anyway. I'm talking about me and my team members referring to saves that we make, turn by turn, as we play. SO that's okay, right?

Yes, it is.

Well, all my tries for speeding up library ended in alphabet T46. So no improvement.

Okay, I got them both--Lib T40, Alpha T45, using a variant of your plan. I can only get 9 scientist-turns instead of 10, but the wb is also done on T45. I mined both rocks first, plus I had to work the deer for two extra turns right before and after Writing. I also pastured the sheep instead of the deer, but I'm not sure that counted. Maybe.

True.

One thing I have been thinking about is whether we should use the first GS on an academy or if we should lightbulb Philosophy instead. Assuming that we have a religion and can run Pacifism this may be more beaker-efficient than doing it the other way around. I haven't checked the timing of it though.

If we're getting Lit and drama before CoL, won't we get the 1st GS well before we can research Philo?

On the religion - if we bulb Philo early, we will most likely found Tao, but if that is our only religion, running it will come at the expense of relations with the hindu civs. And if it's not then we'll be less likely to have hindu spread to us (assuming that also isn't a bit of folklore like the "religion spreads by trade routes" bit I previously believed).

That being said, I guess it's all about beakers, so if bulbing Philo is the more efficient route it's certainly worth considering.

Guess again. ;)



Thanks for clearing that out. :)


New York was settled on T11 and completed an archer T15. It has been working a plains forest the whole time. That is 27 base hammers, minus whatever the cost of an Archer is for a Deity AI. Could it be building a worker or settler now?

Thanks for clearing that out. :)


New York was settled on T11 and completed an archer T15. It has been working a plains forest the whole time. That is 27 base hammers, minus whatever the cost of an Archer is for a Deity AI. Could it be building a worker or settler now?
If Washington had mysticism it's obelisk for sure to complete soon (deity archer = 15h, obelisk = 18h).
If not there are various possibilities. Probably not worker, as he has enough. Probably not settler as the capital will have built or is building one already.
Barracks, walls, archer are possibilities.
Turn 11 already counts for hammers (it had 3h already when you first saw it). But Washington revolted to slavery and now converted.

If we're getting Lit and drama before CoL, won't we get the 1st GS well before we can research Philo?

On the religion - if we bulb Philo early, we will most likely found Tao, but if that is our only religion, running it will come at the expense of relations with the hindu civs. And if it's not then we'll be less likely to have hindu spread to us (assuming that also isn't a bit of folklore like the "religion spreads by trade routes" bit I previously believed).

That being said, I guess it's all about beakers, so if bulbing Philo is the more efficient route it's certainly worth considering.

Our first GS will pop on T58 earliest, 13 turns after Alphabet. But we will get Literature before that so we might want to delay the scientist slightly and instead focus on production to complete the GLib quicker. COL comes around T65-T70 if we self-research directly after Lit and postpone Drama. GLib completes at the same time, around T65-T70. If we bulb Philosophy on T70 and adopt Caste+Pacifism we can run 3+2 scientists for 34 gpp/turn, getting us the second GS on T76.

This all relies on us getting hinduism of course. Running Taoism all by ourself would not be a bright move. :)

If we bulb Philosophy on T70 and adopt Caste+Pacifism we can run 3+2 scientists for 34 gpp/turn, getting us the second GS on T76.

So 70-58=12 lost turns of academy = 12*(3+~20) =~276:science: lost, we get CS slightly later (can't recover the :hammer: with a GS, we need to consider this), but if we still pop 3 GS before edu we'll probably get Oxford around same time as if we build immediate academy.

Other downside is if we're running sci's we will not be working cottages so we'd have a harder time outteching teams that build the Pyramids?

Note on earlier comment about defecit research - with only 1 city I don't believe we incur any maintenance costs until/unless we run OR, and that's only a -1:gold: per turn.

Our first GS will pop on T58 earliest, 13 turns after Alphabet. But we will get Literature before that so we might want to delay the scientist slightly and instead focus on production to complete the GLib quicker. COL comes around T65-T70 if we self-research directly after Lit and postpone Drama. GLib completes at the same time, around T65-T70. If we bulb Philosophy on T70 and adopt Caste+Pacifism we can run 3+2 scientists for 34 gpp/turn, getting us the second GS on T76.

This all relies on us getting hinduism of course. Running Taoism all by ourself would not be a bright move. :)
Drama is cheaper than CoL and we can research it right away after alphabet while we wait for poly.
For CoL we even would have to wait for priesthood.
So that's another argument for drama (which is the alternate prerequisite to philo in case you forgot :p).

Yeah, I totally forgot about Drama being a prereq to Philosophy. That means that we can bulb Philosophy some 5 turns earlier. We also shouldn't neglect the trade value of Philosphy when comparing it to an earlier Academy.

I agree that we only want to run scientists for a limited time period.

I ran some tests earlier on bulbing Philo to see how that played out. The tests I ran didn't seem to pan out, but I didn't try using the first GS, so that's a novel idea. klarius' path is a known commodity. We have gotten a 1320ad victory and the HOF best is 1220ad, so I don't think we should try an untested path without knowing it's potential.

Someone needs to test it out.

I ran some tests earlier on bulbing Philo to see how that played out. The tests I ran didn't seem to pan out, but I didn't try using the first GS, so that's a novel idea. klarius' path is a known commodity. We have gotten a 1320ad victory and the HOF best is 1220ad, so I don't think we should try an untested path without knowing it's potential.

Someone needs to test it out.
In fact I did try it once. But then couldn't afford to run a religion most of the time :cry: and didn't get the additional GS by SM.
It still wasn't my worst try AFAIR, but also far from the best.
Having a top notch trade bait this early sure makes live a lot easier. And in most games I have to research philo (at least partially) anyway, so the beakers are not totally lost.
Philo researched by somebody else can mess up the seemingly stable religion situation, so denial isn't a bad thing also.
I don't think another test before we know more about our land and religion situation makes a lot sense.
Still there is one thing we know already, that's different from our tests:
We would like to be in Asoka's religion anyway. He has NoTechTradeThreshold of 10 = 12 deity techs (in contrast to Gandhi's 15 = 18).
We will run into WFYABTA with him pretty early, as we already want 11 techs with alphabet, if possible.

klarius, what's the latest date we can lose the furs and still get Alpha on T45 using your plan?

Philo researched by somebody else can mess up the seemingly stable religion situation, so denial isn't a bad thing also.

True. However founding it does not ensure denial, especially founding it early - it'll definitely be on our continent and may well spread to civ(s) that haven't gotten a religion yet. One thing to note if we do found it - the free missionary can be used to scout.

I don't like Liz being a neighbor now that Asoka's founded hindu. She's likely to bulb either CoL (if it's not Oracled first) or Philo early, meaning we might have to pick between her and Asoka before we're really ready to.

klarius, what's the latest date we can lose the furs and still get Alpha on T45 using your plan?
T41 AFAIR.

True. However founding it does not ensure denial, especially founding it early - it'll definitely be on our continent and may well spread to civ(s) that haven't gotten a religion yet. One thing to note if we do found it - the free missionary can be used to scout.

I don't like Liz being a neighbor now that Asoka's founded hindu. She's likely to bulb either CoL (if it's not Oracled first) or Philo early, meaning we might have to pick between her and Asoka before we're really ready to.

The free missionary is an excellent weapon. We can then chose what AI the others will hate.

Lizzie bulbing a religion would actually be good. She will then have target written all over her. :)

Updated the PPP. I plan to play the first half of my turnset in the morning, if possible. I'll probalby play till Writing unless something unplanned comes up for discussion.

Note on earlier comment about defecit research - with only 1 city I don't believe we incur any maintenance costs until/unless we run OR, and that's only a -1:gold: per turn.I was thinking about maintenance costs if we have a number of units out fighting.

The free missionary is an excellent weapon. We can then chose what AI the others will hate.

Lizzie bulbing a religion would actually be good. She will then have target written all over her. :)

I hadn't thought of intentionally spreading Tao to a civ to lower the relations with the others. That's a great idea! Similarly you're right about Liz - as long as we can get someone engaged against her before she DOW's on us, if she's so inclined because we're running hindu and she's running something else.

Which variation? Have you found a better one than klarius'?

Which variation? Have you found a better one than klarius'?My feeling is that klarius' plan with Library on T41 is better than my variation that gets it on T40, because his has both sheep and deer developed and worker ready to road furs on time. Mine gets the wb done on T45 with +3:gp:, but that by itself doesn't get us the GS a turn sooner. Mine also mines the marble at the expense of either the sheep or the deer. That might come back to haunt us if we want to focus on fast growth and need the worker to chop the GLib or something.

The bottom line, though, is that I doubt we'll get Alpha on T45 anyway, because Washington will almost surely steal the furs before T41. I think my original variation is stronger, given Alpha on T46, because it produces more hammers, more food, more :gp: and only about 8:science: less. But since klarius feels strongly about going for T45 Alpha, I'm good on trying for it and hoping we get lucky with our furs.

My original thinking in mining both rocks was that we could best replace any lost fur commerce by speeding up the library.

Sounds good. Good luck!

Sounds good. Good luck!Okay, enough blather then. I'll start playing in 40 minutes (noon), unless someone pulls the plug.

My feeling is that klarius' plan with Library on T41 is better than my variation that gets it on T40, because his has both sheep and deer developed and worker ready to road furs on time. Mine gets the wb done on T45 with +3:gp:, but that by itself doesn't get us the GS a turn sooner. Mine also mines the marble at the expense of either the sheep or the deer. That might come back to haunt us if we want to focus on fast growth and need the worker to chop the GLib or something.

The bottom line, though, is that I doubt we'll get Alpha on T45 anyway, because Washington will almost surely steal the furs before T41. I think my original variation is stronger, given Alpha on T46, because it produces more hammers, more food, more :gp: and only about 8:science: less. But since klarius feels strongly about going for T45 Alpha, I'm good on trying for it and hoping we get lucky with our furs.

My original thinking in mining both rocks was that we could best replace any lost fur commerce by speeding up the library.
Well, also good luck.

Note on the furs issue:
If he doesn't have culture rate by T27 (when you have to do the decision between 1 or 2 minings), he will not steal the fur in time to be a problem.

Well, also good luck.

Note on the furs issue:
If he doesn't have culture rate by T27 (when you have to do the decision between 1 or 2 minings), he will not steal the fur in time to be a problem.Is this also considering his getting religion and an obelisk?

LC Turnset

Turn 20, 3200bc, end-of-turn
WarW E
WarSE E to hill, preparing to scout down the Eastern side of the continent
Wkr1 SE
Work both crabs
Build scout

Turn 21, 3160bc
WarW NE to capital
WarSE NE to position next to Asoka's road
Wkr1 E to furs
No other status changes

Turn 22, 3120bc
WarW fortifies
WarSE fortifies
Wkr1 E camping furs
Lizzy in slavery
Asoka now pleased with LIzzy at +0 (can't remember if that's a change or not)
No other status changes

Turn 23, 3080bc
Wkr1 E camping furs
Asoka in slavery
Asoka toggles back to cautious with LIzzy at +0
HC toggles to pleased with Toku at +0
Bombay has an Oblelisk, but not sure when it appeared
Lizzy jumps into to first place in score (3rd city or border expansion or what?)
NY at pop2 (but forgot to check its pop last turn)
No other status changes

Turn 24, 3040bc
Wkr1 E camping furs
HC toggles back to cautious with Toku at +0
Asoka skyrockets into first place in score
Washington The B@$t@rd building a farm on one of 'our' forests
No other status changes

Turn 25, 3000bc
furs camped
Switch citizen from unimproved crabs to furs
Asoka toggles back to pleased with Lizzy at +0
No other status changes

Turn 26, 2960bc
Wkr1 W to marble
pop3
Citizens work both crabs, furs
switch build to wb
NY has built a barracks!, but farm/chop 2 turns from completion
Asoka toggles to pleased with HC at +3
HC finally in slavery
No other status changes

Turn 27, 2920bc
NY still has no obelisk and no religion so:
Wkr1 W to stone
NY South farm/chop that I didn't even notice is completed, one more next turn.
Bombay has built a barracks
HC to +2 with Asoka but still cautious
No other status changes

Turn 28, 2880bc
Wkr1 mining stone
NY 2nd farm/chop completed
HC toggles to pleased with Toku at +0
No other status changes

IT: I refuse OBs with HC

Turn 29, 2840bc -- incomplete
Writing complete
Wkr1 mining stone
Switch build to Library
HC at +2 with Washington and Asoka but still cautious

Note: New York still has no culture. That's New York for you. Elizabeth and Toku still haven't declared any religion. I assume we want OBs, but I'm stopping now for discussion. I'll upload the save if anyone thinks he needs to see it.

Turn 29, 2840bc -- continuing
OBs with Asoka, Washington, Lizzy, and HC
Move Scout SE
Move WarSE SE, who sees Delhi, which is Buddhist and
Meets Izzy, who founded Buddhism and evidently has the Mahabodhi already (or what?)
Izzy knows everyone but Lizzy
Izzy also has no current war plans
Izzy isn't in slavery yet
No other status changes

Note: I pause again, according to Gnejs' request.

Turn 30, 2800bc
Move Scout S
Move WarSE E S
Washington now pleased with Asoka at +2, up to +2 with HC but still cautious
No other status changes

Turn 31, 2760bc
Stone mine completed
Move Scout S SE
Move WarSE S SW SPies Toku's land. I decide not to go 4-turn detour to see Toku's coast. Rather make sure we meet everyone by Alpha. Hope we don't regret it.
No other status changes

Turn 32, 2720bc
Wkr1 S to Deer
Move Scout SW SW S W, Spies N tip of IncaLand
Move WarSE SW SW
New York still no religion or obelisk. We should keep our deers till T41!!!
No other status changes

Turn 33, 2680bc
Wkr1 camping Deer
Move Scout SW N NW W
Move WarSE SW, spies Freddie, a Buddhist who is annoyed with HC. WarSE signs OBs and moves SW.
Asoka has mined copper on grass to far south, but no horse pasture. Washington has neither horse pasture nor copper mine.
New York finally completes an Obelisk. :mad:
No other status changes

Turn 34, 2640bc
Wkr1 camping Deer
Move Scout SW Meets Buddhist ALex who can be bribed to war against everyone except his worst enemy, Washington (go figure :crazyeye:). Then NW NW NW to London.
Move WarSE SE SE, spies Izzy's land. I unwittingly missed a chance to spy Toku's capital across a lake tile.
Lizzy doesn't have a copper mine or a horse pasture.
No other status changes

We now know 8 AIs.

End of turnset.

Turnset log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 3200 BC to 2640 BC:


Turn 21, 3160 BC: Elizabeth adopts Slavery!

Turn 22, 3120 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery!

Turn 25, 3000 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Slavery!

Turn 28, 2880 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 28, 2880 BC: You have trained a Scout in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 33, 2680 BC: Murkyopolis will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Autolog:IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 21/460 (3160 BC) [01-May-2008 12:19:47]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 22/460 (3120 BC) [01-May-2008 12:32:29]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 23/460 (3080 BC) [01-May-2008 12:38:59]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 24/460 (3040 BC) [01-May-2008 12:49:03]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 25/460 (3000 BC) [01-May-2008 12:54:48]
Murkyopolis grows: 3

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 26/460 (2960 BC) [01-May-2008 13:00:44]
Murkyopolis begins: Work Boat (5 turns)

IBT:

Turn 27/460 (2920 BC) [01-May-2008 13:09:50]

IBT:

Turn 28/460 (2880 BC) [01-May-2008 13:16:48]
Murkyopolis begins: Scout (1 turns)
Tech learned: Writing
Murkyopolis finishes: Scout

IBT:
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 29/460 (2840 BC) [01-May-2008 13:22:52]
Research begun: Alphabet (17 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Library (23 turns)
Contact made: Spanish Empire

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 30/460 (2800 BC) [01-May-2008 22:47:54]

IBT:

Turn 31/460 (2760 BC) [01-May-2008 22:53:51]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Asoka(India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 32/460 (2720 BC) [01-May-2008 23:06:31]

IBT:

Turn 33/460 (2680 BC) [01-May-2008 23:37:27]
Contact made: German Empire

IBT:

Turn 34/460 (2640 BC) [01-May-2008 23:49:49]
Contact made: Greek Empire



Here is the current state of affairs:

No. The critical point is really culture expansion by about T36-37.

Edit: crosspost :)

Comments:
The turnset has gone exactly as we planned. Nothing bad has happened. I have the SE warrior ready to enter Asoka's territory onto a road north of his capital. The warrior will quickly make headway down to where we think TOku is. I think the best route for the scout is SE past NY to the closest roads and then SW through Washington and over to explore Lizzy and further south.

Good turnset so far. Looks like we will be lucky with the furs. Hopefully that will continue to hold.

I have no objection to OB's with everyone.

Note: New York still has no culture. That's New York for you. :lol:

EDIT: What tile is the scout on now? It's missing from your report?

Ok, I think OB with everybody (except Toku obviously) is OK. That may mean we get a settlement to our west earlier, but we cannot avoid it anyway in the long run. And maybe somebody helps us then building roads through our territory :).
Scouting should be no problem now that we have a scout :D. So I would recommend to do it thoroughly already also defogging as much coast as possible.

Btw, I think I might as well play the rest of the turnset tonight, unless any discussion requires more time. That should give everyone a chance to comment.

We don't want to move too slowly, I don't think, especially when we pretty much know what we want to do. Keep the flow going.

Ok, I think OB with everybody (except Toku obviously) is OK.

Yes that's what I meant, I just forgot to clarify except Toku. Thanks klarius.

NY was built with Wash's second starting settler, so that means there's an unkown AI directly below him. Suggest you drop the scount low enough if it swings through there on the way to Liz.

Good turnset so far. Looks like we will be lucky with the furs. Hopefully that will continue to hold.

I have no objection to OB's with everyone.

:lol:

EDIT: What tile is the scout on now? It's missing from your report?I haven't moved the scout yet.

Ok, I think OB with everybody (except Toku obviously) is OK. That may mean we get a settlement to our west earlier, but we cannot avoid it anyway in the long run. And maybe somebody helps us then building roads through our territory :).
Scouting should be no problem now that we have a scout :D. So I would recommend to do it thoroughly already also defogging as much coast as possible.Okay, OBs as much as possible. I'm hoping Lizzy settles up north asap so maybe we get a trade connection a bit earlier. Maybe even Hinduism spread sooner.

EDIT: And thorough scouting.

NY was built with Wash's second starting settler, so that means there's an unkown AI directly below him. Suggest you drop the scount low enough if it swings through there on the way to Liz.Right. That's a good point. We'll see what the warrior can do. I'm guessing the top part of the continent looks kind of like Illinois-- coasts straight down to the east and bulging out to the west.

Right. That's a good point. We'll see what the warrior can do. I'm guessing the top part of the continent looks kind of like Illinois-- coasts straight down to the east and bulging out to the west.

Unless Gyanthaar heavily modified the map and made the continents run E-W.

Ok LC, I would like to have a look on the save.
Want to look a bit at score and power graphs.

Looking good LC. Nothing to add from me.

Ok LC, I would like to have a look on the save.
Want to look a bit at score and power graphs.Here you go. EDIT: Planning to play around 10-11 pm tonight, but I'll wait for any further comments from you.

Here you go. EDIT: Planning to play around 10-11 pm tonight, but I'll wait for any further comments from you.

Go ahead. On diplomacy, give in to any demands from Hindu AIs, especially Asoka. Don't give in to any demands to stop trading with hindu AIs. Don't be afraid to antagonize AIs on the lower half of the score ladder. These are the targets that we will set our friends on anyway.

If it turns out that we have Buddhism on our continent then stop and let us reassess the situation.

Why not open borders with Toku?

Why not open borders with Toku?
Because he will not do it, before pleased (IOW probably never).

Well, that didn't take long. Before finishing Turn 29 I met Izzy by sighting Delhi. She founded Buddhism, so I paused again, according to Gnejs' request.

Izzy is second to last in score, slightly ahead of Toku.

EDIT: I assume I should just continue, but hold off on OBs with Izzy until I sight her land and then we decide. Feedback, anyone?

EDIT1: Izzy knows everyone but LIzzy.

Well, that didn't take long. Before finishing Turn 29 I met Izzy by sighting Delhi. She founded Buddhism, so I paused again, according to Gnejs' request.

Izzy is second to last in score, slightly ahead of Toku.
Well, it doesn't help much to pause. :)

We know now that we have a little bit a complex situation, that's all.

I would still follow the path to OB everybody. Izzy herself shouldn't be much of a problem with our peaceful neighbors. Other civs with her religion more so.

Okay, I'll continue. Is it better to OB with Izzy now, or does it matter?

You can wait until you are on her borders. OTOH that shouldn't take long :).

Question: WOuld you send WarSE SE SE to spy inside Toku's land while we still have a chance?

Edit: See picture below.

I don't see anything :scan:, so have no idea.

I don't see anything :scan:, so have no idea.THere should be a link there now.

Invalid Attachment specified. :crazyeye:

I'll try again:

Okay, I'll describe it. WarSE can go unroaded SE, then SE to a hill that is the corner coastal tile NE NE of Toku's capital. But we won't see into the capital itself, I don't think, because of a forest. We'll see his coastal tiles. Probably won't matter for tile counting, but you never know.

Otherwise the warrior just goes roaded SW SW

EDIT: In other words, it would be a 4-turn detour.

EDIT1: Okay, I got the picture to work (see above)

Well, do how you like. We should be able to afford the detour, but then you don't have much more to find in your turn set ;).

Over to you, FiveAces. We've met 8 AIs. We should keep our furs long enough to get Alpha on T45!!!

Notes:
1. WarSE might as well go N to look into Toku's capital.
2. Lizzy has a settler on the silver, perhaps moving toward the W seafood.

What is Liz doing with her settler - stumbling around :mad: , she should have already settled.

Find the newest hidden attitude spread sheet attached. Note the yellowish stuff is to be changed.
Obviously the leader line as we find more people (as long as the name is the same as in table 2 everything will update).
The rank column is a guess for the score rank. It's important with some leaders who love underdogs (e.g Asoka) and because of rank>= 10 will give a mutual +1.
The line peace rand can have values from 0 to 2. I changed it when I found contradictions in the reports. My changes may be wrong :crazyeye:.

...and why does Lizzie have two workers garrisoned instead of building roads?

klarius, I think I understand the iBasePeaceWeightRand and iPeaceWeightRand. The final PeaceWeight value calculated for a given AI can vary from turn to turn, right? That would be why the attitudes keep toggling. How is your "Peace Rand" related to them, if at all?

QUestion: when the PeaceWeight for TUrn 127 is calculated for Asoka, do the dice get thrown for his attitude to each AI separately?

...and why does Lizzie have two workers garrisoned instead of building roads?

klarius, I think I understand the iBasePeaceWeightRand and iPeaceWeightRand. The final PeaceWeight value calculated for a given AI can vary from turn to turn, right? That would be why the attitudes keep toggling. How is your "Peace Rand" related to them, if at all?

QUestion: when the PeaceWeight for TUrn 127 is calculated for Asoka, do the dice get thrown for his attitude to each AI separately?
It doesn't vary from turn to turn (otherwise the relations would be even wavier as they are now).
There is a random(3) = (0..2) drawn at game start and they keep it all game.
BTW, iBasePeaceWeightRand is a wrong name in the spread sheet. It should be iBasePeaceWeight. It's not random but fixed for the leaders.

My peace rand is the value for the random part, I concluded from attitudes at various points in the game.
It's a bit tricky, because there is the variable part based on the ranking and we cannot know the complete rank list (until we know all leaders in the game). That's what makes the toggle at the same values.

It doesn't vary from turn to turn (otherwise the relations would be even wavier as they are now).
There is a random(3) = (0..2) drawn at game start and they keep it all game.
BTW, iBasePeaceWeightRand is a wrong name in the spread sheet. It should be iBasePeaceWeight. It's not random but fixed for the leaders.

My peace rand is the value for the random part, I concluded from attitudes at various points in the game.
It's a bit tricky, because there is the variable part based on the ranking and we cannot know the complete rank list (until we know all leaders in the game). That's what makes the toggle at the same values.Thanks. That helps a lot.

Note to Erkon: Pls link this in klarius korner.

Now I'm finally back after celebrating both Eastern Ortodox Easter and 1st of May ( both are free-days in Romania and I took 2 more free days too to have a full week ... ;) ).

Start to read the replies which I missed ... :)

Perfectly played, LC. :goodjob:

Now this is looking interesting. 3 hindu and 3 buddhist AIs, with 2 undecided. Asoka is looking powerful with copper and those 2 gold. A future ally perhaps, but Isabella has meditation and can probably start spamming missionaries as soon as she gets open borders with someone. If we are betting on the hindu team we might try to instigate a war against her before she is able to convert more AIs.

The next turnset will be the most important in this game, I am sure. :)

What is the tile count so far? With 9 civs on our continent we should be close to 50% already. Lets hope that we meet one or two more.

A bit thinking about potential PA partners:

Alex, Toku: Don't sign PA at all.

Washington, Liz:
Difficult, because they can be bribed to war only when you are already at friendly.
And their favorite civics are too late to help with that.

Asoka:
In principle nice. But he is maybe too nice. He needs to be annoyed with a target to be bribed to war and he is not easily annoyed (he doesn't care much about people having different religion). He also loves underdogs to no end.

Izzy:
Possible, but we will need her religion at some time and can probably not adopt a different religion before.

Freddy:
Should be pretty easy. I just don't like that I always see him lose in my test games.

Huayna:
Pretty easy Also in the group of bribe at friendly only but with HR as favorite civic, so we wouldn't need religion necessarily.

Now this is looking interesting. 3 hindu and 3 buddhist AIs, with 2 undecided. Asoka is looking powerful with copper and those 2 gold. A future ally perhaps, but Isabella has meditation and can probably start spamming missionaries as soon as she gets open borders with someone. If we are betting on the hindu team we might try to instigate a war against her before she is able to convert more AIs.

Meditation isn't important probably. It's unlikely that they build monasteries before T60 (that's a threshold where small civs will stick to urgent infra and units).
The missionary spam will begin with organized religion.

I like HC's or Izzy's location. Close enough for us to send some early cats to help, but far enough to keep early wars away from us. I also think a central location is better for the general logistics of the war campaign, lower maintenance costs for the partner, etc.

PA Partners -- Asoka
We need +8 visible attitude with Asoka for PA, right? We can get +7 with religion, +2 trade, +2 OBs, +1 peace, and +2 war = +14. Close borders won't happen before he captures Washington. So we have -6 to spare. Maybe we could bribe a few backward AIs to DoW Asoka, then join in against them? The first war might be a problem with that *6 factor.

What is the tile count so far? With 9 civs on our continent we should be close to 50% already. Let's hope that we meet one or two more.We're at about half the limit (283) with visible tiles, but we haven't even exposed all of the northern hemisphere tiles.

Ok, Huayna is no option. Just looked again, he is also one of those who don't go to war for you unless friendly.
One shouldn't just assume from their general war like character :blush:.

Currently, only Asoka and Freddie threaten with axes, all others, archers. Is there any simple way to get an AI to tell you who is worst enemy is? ALex told me when I met him, but I can't get him to again, and I can't get anyone else to, after trying about 100 times with each.

It's random, you just have to talk to them a few times.
But, there is a bug in the game.
On the turn you load a save there is no worst enemy.

Got it!

I will post my PPP tomorrow for comment. And some good news - I now have internet at home (well as long as whoever's router I'm connected to is online :mischief:) so hopefully I won't be near as much as a bottleneck as I could have been.

Here's my PPP. Erkon, making us write these things is a really great idea. I know exactly what I'm going to do and I can easily refer to it each turn so that I don't forget to do something.

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T34-T44 45

Most important goals, actions, and intent: Research towards alpha, run a sci, explore

BUILD QUEUE
library(7t) - finish t41
wb(partial) finish t45

UNIT MOVES
Scout explores SW through HC territory S along coast through Alex.
WarSE moves N to see toku's cap, then SE through Izzy territory (is there any reason we shouldn't OB with Izzy?) EDIT: Should I just go SE and screw looking at Toku's cap?

WORKER ACTIONS
Furs camp (3t)
Pasture sheep (1 move +4t)
move W to marble (3t) furs (4t) marble (3t)

CITY MM
t35-36 - as-is, new citizen (t35) works stone mine
t3736 - switch from unnetted clams to deer
t41 - turn stone citizen and deer citizen into sci
t44 - optimize for 1t wb then revert to sci's

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Keep the peace
Open borders with Izzy and Alex
Give in to demands from hindu civs (what about stop trading with Izzy?).
Do not stop trading with hindu civs (what if Izzy requests?).

TRADE SCREEN ACTIONS
Monitor AI war plans each turn
Monitor AI attitudes for shifts each turn
Trade writing for BW if possible
Trade writing for myst+wheel with backward civ (i.e. no sailing etc.)

OTHERS
Research: Alpha (partial)
Civic change: None
Religion change: Will stop and discuss if religion spreads.
Mid-turnset break: none (This should be a really easy turnset. I don't really see a need to discuss anything unless one of the things below happens) However I will defer to our great leader if he wants me to take a break.

Stopping points:
Spread of religion
Any DOW
Contact with a new civ
Asoka or Wash or Liz get enough on their hands

I suggest you play to alpha. Break criteria
looks fine. Break is also good for advice.

I suggest you play to alpha. Break criteria
looks fine. Break is also good for advice.

I planned to upload on t44 after making all moves but before pressing enter. This will allow jesusin to decide on any IBT AI tech offers, if we get any. I think that's a better break point than after alpha is researched since we'll probably want to do some pre-discussion of what-ifs for the IBT. Is that the timing you meant?

I would like to scout along the coast through Alex' territory.
Make OB just before and cancel trade with Alex if somebody tells you to do so.
Warrior should have a look on Toku. That doesn't cost much as SE-SE will then avoid a river crossing.

Please play to alphabet. Accept a deal BW for writing (even with a worst enemy - it's still a pretty cheap deal), but nothing else. It's anyway unlikely that even this deal comes up.
But we want to know the tech situation and discuss it, so the turn before alphabet is not a good break point. We will have no new information by then to give direction to the IBT.

PA Partners -- Asoka
We need +8 visible attitude with Asoka for PA, right? We can get +7 with religion, +2 trade, +2 OBs, +1 peace, and +2 war = +14. Close borders won't happen before he captures Washington.

Ok, a few small points:
The +8 (+2 from better rank) to friendly is only correct as long as Asoka is 13 places ahead in score. Asoka may fall a few places and we might climb by tech score and civs getting destroyed. Though I doubt that we will ever get below 7 ranks between us so that's just one point which may be lost.
It's +9 you can get from religion with Asoka, but note it takes 70 turns of shared religion to get there.
It's calculated as AttitudeChange (the immediate change)+AttitudeLimit (limit is applied only on the time dependent part) + 1 if has holy city of state religion.
There is also an extra -1 for different religion if the civ has the holy city of their state religion.

Please play to alphabet. Accept a deal BW for writing (even with a worst enemy - it's still a pretty cheap deal), but nothing else. It's anyway unlikely that even this deal comes up.
But we want to know the tech situation and discuss it, so the turn before alphabet is not a good break point. We will have no new information by then to give direction to the IBT.

Yes, please.

Ppp looks good. Can you afford to run two sci for some turns? Top prio for scouting should be tile count and meeting ais.

In fact thinking about it some more, I would even like to have one step further.
Look for BW deals with writing. If possible do (not likely).
Then do deals for myst and wheel with writing ( with most backwards civs i.e. not having sailing ). Don't care about worst enemy in these deals. That's so cheap stuff that even if we should pick up a worst enemy trading point with somebody we don't know for long, that will not last for long.

Then we can know who has pots, med and poly (easiest by switching of exotic foreign adviser) and decide further actions.

Ppp looks good. Can you afford to run two sci for some turns? Top prio for scouting should be tile count and meeting ais.
2 sci should be possible all the time after library completes, but I prefer to only have 1 or 0 to speed up 2nd wb.

With our 2 units it is no problem to meet all AI before alpha, so priority is scouting the land (especially coast line).
Meeting all AI before alpha completes doesn't buy us anything.

Just some question to be sure that I understand you plan guys ...

- So ... we will skip any techs for an as-early-as-possible Alphabet research in order to maximize tech-trades ?
- Also there will be no attempt to build Pyramids ( something which I always succeded in my test games ) in order to have 1-2 scientist(s) thinking for ... a really genius ? :p
- No other wonders also, no ( I succeded to build Parthenon in a test game ... ) ?
- Try to get an AI ( Ashoka ? ) as fast friendly in order to be "our big brother" to share a diplo/cultural victory with him ? ;)

Regards and sorry for disturbance !

Most important goals, actions, and intent: Research towards alpha, run a sci, explore

CITY MM
t35-36 - as-is, new citizen (t35) works stone mine
EDIT: t37 T36 - switch from unnetted clams to deer
t41 - turn stone citizen into sci

Asoka or Wash or Liz get enough on their handsLooks great to me, FiveAces. This is excellent how we're all working together so well!

Couple comments from me.
1. Maybe stop if Liz gets her hands full too.
2. I may be reading your MM wrong, but as I get it, on T41 you're working the improved crabs, the furs, the deer and 1 sci. That wouldn't get Alpha on T45. Note that unless I'm mistaken klarius has a typo in his plan (see below). I think he meant working the furs would cause slight starvation (and it's also the furs that would give more commerce for T45).I can manage T45 alpha T41 library by leaving out the wb.

After growth to 4 add stone mine. When deer camped switch from unnetted clams to deer.
After library completes 2 scientists with both clams or clam and deer furs at slight starvation.

In any case, when the library is completed, to get Alpha by T45, we need to work improved crabs, and
- furs + 2 sci (-1:food:) or
- furs + 1 sci + unimproved crabs or
- furs + unimproved crabs + coastal or
- 2 sci + unimproved crabs or
- etc. (the deer don't help)

I'd like to see us work 2 scientists as much as possible. I've played around with it a bit and what makes most sense to me is to work our most productive tiles. We can't use pop5 yet till T49, and we could finish the wb on T45 or T46, depending on your choice. So I recommend hiring 2 scientists and working the furs till T44, if possible. On T44 you can optimize to finish the wb in 1 turn and still get Alpha on T45. Then jesusin can use the 2nd crabs, after developed, to grow by T49.

Note: Every other time I play around with this, I forget to switch to the g'dam deer on T36. Beware--it happens fast: T35, pop4 to mine; T36, switch crabs to deer. Below, I've attached a T34 save you can play around with, if you haven't already made one.



btw, when do you envision playing your turnset?

PPP updated. Will plan to play + upload tomorrow night, so another 24hrs or so for comments/advice.

PPP updated. Will plan to play + upload tomorrow night, so another 24hrs or so for comments/advice.Sorry, I didn't notice this before. The deer is improved on T36 and if you switch on T37, the library is T42. Should be:

T36 switch unnetted crabs to deer.

PPP updated. Will plan to play + upload tomorrow night, so another 24hrs or so for comments/advice.
Could you consider to play a first session of a few turns of MM and scouting before.
Tomorrow night sounds like everybody besides you is asleep, so no chance to ask anybody if something comes up.
There isn't much more to comment and recommend currently. That may change with a more people met if any.

Sorry, I didn't notice this before. The deer is improved on T36 and if you switch on T37, the library is T42. Should be:

T36 switch unnetted crabs to deer.

You're right - I forgot they're available on the 3rd worker turn and not after it. Will make the adjustment.

My preference is also for gpp over food at this stage.

Could you consider to play a first session of a few turns of MM and scouting before.
Tomorrow night sounds like everybody besides you is asleep, so no chance to ask anybody if something comes up.
There isn't much more to comment and recommend currently. That may change with a more people met if any.

Not unless you guy's go to bed very early - I'm +4GMT and will play around 7PM my time, so that's 5PM in central Europe.

Problem with playing today is I'd likely be in violation of the don't play after drinking rule. But we'll see what time I manage to get out of the office.

Sorry, I didn't notice this before. The deer is improved on T36 and if you switch on T37, the library is T42. Should be:

T36 switch unnetted crabs to deer.

I am playing around with this too.

FiveAces, I'd like to see your PPP from t41 to t45. Changing nothing results in WB, almost Alpha and pop5 (which we can't maintain) in t45.

This "almost Alpha" worries me, 8 beakers short. I guess we should take the deer citizen to the library for some turns, but that would delay the WB.

2 turns as is and 2 turns with 2sci leads to 21food, 29hammers and 431beakers...

With 2 sci the whole time we would have more GPP and 13food, 25hammers and 441beakers... I prefer this option.



By the way, where is the worker at the beggining of t45? Getting to the sheep requieres 1t. But getting from the sheep to the furs can be done in 3t.

Just some question to be sure that I understand you plan guys ...

- So ... we will skip any techs for an as-early-as-possible Alphabet research in order to maximize tech-trades ?

Yes

- Also there will be no attempt to build Pyramids ( something which I always succeded in my test games ) in order to have 1-2 scientist(s) thinking for ... a really genius ? :p

Yes

- No other wonders also, no ( I succeded to build Parthenon in a test game ... ) ?

We will build the Great Library. For NW we will build Oxford and HE and most likely Globe and maybe NE.

- Try to get an AI ( Ashoka ? ) as fast friendly in order to be "our big brother" to share a diplo/cultural victory with him ? ;)

No our preference is for dom if we have enough tiles on our continent. If not we will need to discuss our VC once we know the tile count.

xpost.


Problem with playing today is I'd likely be in violation of the don't play after drinking rule. But we'll see what time I manage to get out of the office.


The logical consequence of this two sentences is... :eek: What a nice job you have, then!

Not unless you guy's go to bed very early - I'm +4GMT and will play around 7PM my time, so that's 5PM in central Europe.

Problem with playing today is I'd likely be in violation of the don't play after drinking rule. But we'll see what time I manage to get out of the office.Just make sure your Router won't get turned off... ;)

I'll be awake whenever you decide to play. (I can re-schedule my 5 PM nap :lol:). But I'm good with whatever you decide. I personally like having someone around to interact with. In SG5, I had a couple of situations where the Team could have given me some good feedback, but I was still operating in solo-mode and didn't think to ask. Then in retrospect, I realized we could have really benefitted from the discussion. Now, I'm committed to asking, like when I asked klarius whether to send my warrior off on that tangent. But it's your choice. Feel free to play your turnset however you want. Just give us a couple hours notice if you want someone tagging along with you.

The logical consequence of this two sentences is... :eek: What a nice job you have, then!He's obviously a cop. :mischief:

I am playing around with this too.

FiveAces, I'd like to see your PPP from t41 to t45. Changing nothing results in WB, almost Alpha and pop5 (which we can't maintain) in t45.

This "almost Alpha" worries me, 8 beakers short. I guess we should take the deer citizen to the library for some turns, but that would delay the WB.

2 turns as is and 2 turns with 2sci leads to 21food, 29hammers and 431beakers...

With 2 sci the whole time we would have more GPP and 13food, 25hammers and 441beakers... I prefer this option.

Agreed - I made the change in the PPP.

By the way, where is the worker at the beggining of t45? Getting to the sheep requieres 1t. But getting from the sheep to the furs can be done in 3t.

He's lost in the forest somewhere ;). For some reason I was thinking the sheep were cattycorner adjacent to the deer. I've fixed it now. But I don't see how to get from the sheep to the furs in 3 turns. Did you mean the marble? That's where he ends up on t45, I think.

t34-36 camp deer - t37 move to sheep - t38-41 pasture sheep - t42 move W to forest - t43 move W to stone - t44 move W to marble - at at beginning of t45 worker is on the marble.

xpost.




The logical consequence of this two sentences is... :eek: What a nice job you have, then!

:lol: I wish! - what I meant was if there was enough time between leaving here and the start of the ManU match I might be able to squeeze in a few turns. Unfortunately that won't happen now.

I'll give a heads up tomorrow before I start - should be between 7-8. Anybody is welcome to tag along, I'll update the report post turn-by-turn a la LC. (assuming that router stays connected, of course!)

FiveAces, I'd like to see your PPP from t41 to t45. Changing nothing results in WB, almost Alpha and pop5 (which we can't maintain) in t45.

This "almost Alpha" worries me, 8 beakers short. I guess we should take the deer citizen to the library for some turns, but that would delay the WB.

2 turns as is and 2 turns with 2sci leads to 21food, 29hammers and 431beakers...

With 2 sci the whole time we would have more GPP and 13food, 25hammers and 441beakers... I prefer this option.



By the way, where is the worker at the beggining of t45? Getting to the sheep requieres 1t. But getting from the sheep to the furs can be done in 3t.
The final decision on what to do between 41 and 45 can only be done in 2 turns. If New York catches Hindu in this time it can still steal the furs for 1 turn. If not we have all freedom with 1-2 scientists, furs, clams and a lot combinations of other tiles (including the improved sheep).

The worker should just make it to the marble after improving the sheep, which is perfectly fine as the road there is needed to connect the furs.

jesusin is right about the worker getting to furs in 3t. From the sheep, it goes NE, NE SE, SE and arrives on the furs or marble in 3 turns. But, as klarius points out, it doesn't matter which we road first, as long as we road both before quarrying the marble.

The final decision on what to do between 41 and 45 can only be done in 2 turns.

Does that mean I should stop if NY gets Hindu before t41?

Does that mean I should stop if NY gets Hindu before t41?As I understand it, you should be able to work the furs till T41 at the very least. From then on, you can still get Alpha on T45 working only scientists and coastal tiles, though we'd obviously prefer as much fur as possible, with the extra hammers and commerce at a cost of only 1:food:.

Edit: SO I don't think that's a reason to stop.

Edit2: As I understand it, we are agreed that Alpha on T45 is PRIORITY ONE. Other MM related to wb, scientists, etc., is lower in priority.

ok technical difficulties (welcome to Dubai) are preventing me from watching the match. I'm going to play in about 30 min unless anybody objects.

Does that mean I should stop if NY gets Hindu before t41?
In fact exact (?) calculation gives that it could be only a problem if NY has Hindu next turn. And it would only influence T44-45 IBT (and 7 turns after that, but that's not our current problem).

ok technical difficulties (welcome to Dubai) are preventing me from watching the match. I'm going to play in about 30 min unless anybody objects.Okay by me. Good luck. Take your time and don't get so caught up in reporting to us that you get distracted from your main job... ;)

EDIT: I also am connected by router. I suggest you save each turn BEFORE you go to report the turn to us, just in case.

FiveAces turnset report - t34-45

t34 - 2640bc
no action (delaying OB's until ready to enter territory)

IBT - Judism founded in Bombay. Great. Another religion to deal with. No spread yet.

t35 - 2600bc

Grow to size 4, working stone mine
Scout - SE SE SE S
WarSE - N, sees Kyoto, 8 archers+settler, stack of 5 archers on Wor 1NW. City has water to the E.

Diplo: Nobody has enough on their hands. Askoa toggles to cautious w Liz. Izzy at +3 and pleased with Fred.

IBT: Asoka adopts OR

t36 - 2560bc

Switch citizen from unimproved crabs to unimproved deer (I remembered)

Diplo:
OB w Izzy+Alex
HC up to +3 with Asoka
HC toggles to annoyed w Liz
Izzy drops to +3 w Alex
Asoka drops to +3 with HC
Fred drops to +3 w Izzy
Nobody has enough on their hands

WarSE - SE, nothing of note
Scout - SE, sees Athens (archers only) to SE, SE (on to Athens) coast appears straight down W side too, SW and... We meet Kublai Khan! Sweet! He's Buddist. No borders - His scout is trapped on a single hill between Alex and HC's culture.

Stopping here as agreed - good thing the router's still working ;). Have not opened borders with KK. Diplo screen is attached. Game is still running but I will wait for discussion before continuing, or do we need a longer break?

post stop - OB with KK

t37 - 2520bc

IBT: Izzy adopts OR, Liz settler now on the furs - she's definitely bonkers
diplo: Alex to +3 w Fred, Alex to +3 with Izzy, Fred has axes, nobody has EOTH
worker: W
Scout: S, SE (sees sparta on coast), SE (sees Fred), SE
WarSE: SE, S (sees Madrid)

t38 - 2480bc

Liz settler to ice 2N of NY
Asoka toggle to annoyed at KK, Fred toggle to cautious w Alex, nobody has EOTH
Worker NW pasture sheep, WarSE S, SE, Scout S, SW (sees remote HC city), SE (sees KK borders to S), NW (around a lake)

t39 - 2440bc

IBT: Liz is Hindu, Freddy says he has swords, Liz settler moves back to furs
Dipol: Asoka +4 with Wash, Liz +1 with Wash and pleased, HC +3 with Wash, Liz +1 and please with Asoka, Fred +1 and Pleased with Liz, Wash +1 and pleased with Liz, Asoka +2 and please with Liz, HC +1 with Liz, Liz +1 with HC
Scout - SE (sees purple border, strange, that doesn't look like Asoka's purple, SE and... WTF? we meet JC (Antium, so 2 cities). He's buddist too. relations screenshot attached. Pausing mid-turn. On the plus side with this many AI we must be over the dom limit tile count.

I can cancel OB with Liz this turn, if we still wish to do that.

Antium has 2gold. JC score is 269, 5th just above KK. He has archers and his worst enemy is Liz.

Continuing t39:

Cancel OB w Liz; OB with JC
Scout SE, S
WarSE SW, SE JC is below Izzy but don't see Rome yet.

t40 - 2400bc

Wash +2 and please w Asoka, JC toggle to cautious w Liz (go figure), Liz meets Toku, annoyed at 0, same for Toku towards Liz, nobody has EOTH
Scout: SE, SE, SE, S - bottom of continent and sees most of KK land.
WarSE: NW, W towards Fred, scout will fully explore JC within next 2 turns

t41 - 2360bc

Lib finished, switch to wb, stone and deer citz turned to sci's. On pace for t45 alpha. pasture finished.
Izzy drops to +3 w JC, HC to -4 w Alex but still cautious. Alex to -2 w HC. JC has Praets.
Nobody has EOTH.
WasSE: NW, NW
Scout: NE, W, NE finished KK territory, will finish JC next turn.

t42 - 2320bc

IBT: Stonehenge BIFL, Washington's borders expand (NY still no religion)
No diplo changes (finally), nobody has EOTH
Wor: W
Scout: NE, NW, W - JC territory fully exposed but no mines - either Rome or Antium must be sitting on Iron (prob Rome)
WarSE: NW NW, Fred's territory mapped, HC in about 2 turns and that will be all land squares revealed except for one of Toku's

t43 - 2280bc

IBT: Wash is building road on our deer - Thanks!
Fred toggle please w JC, Alex toggle caut w JC, KK now -2 w Liz, Alex to +3 w KK, JC toggle caut Alex, HC toggle annoyed Alex
Nobody has EOTH
switch 1 sci to stone mine (still on pace for t45 alpha)
wor: W
WarSE NW, sees Cuzco on hill, will return to Murky to garrison/be upgraded when we get money and metal
Scout: W, W, SW gonna hang around KK/JC territory headed to the hill by Toku, unless WarSE can get there faster.
note on previous turn - mine on plains SW Rome - that's the iron. Scout was on it last turn so didn't notice.

t44 - 2240bc

IBT: Izzy asks us to stop trading with Wash. We decline. -1 with Izzy.
We can have a trade route with Liz if we had OB.
Wash worker roading stone

diplo: KK to +3 w Fred, Fred toggle caut JC, Liz -1 w JC, KK +2 w JC, Alex toggle please JC, Fred -2 w Liz and caut, JC -2 w Liz and annoy, Fred +3 w KK, JC +1 w KK and pleased, KK +3 w Alex, HC toggle caut Alex, KK +3 w Izzy, Asoka has spears.

Wor: W to marble
Scout: N,NW,N,NE will be at hill in 4 more turns.
WarSE: N to cuzco, all HC tiles revealed, sees HC axe.

Alpha next turn.

t45 - 2200bc

Alpha! research set on drama, no beakers invested
wb finished, moves to unimproved crabs, build set on barracks, no hammers invested
deer citizen turned to sci
border expands next turn
worker roading marble, will give us TR with wash when finished - he's not roading stone, my bad, he's connecting his silver.
WarSE 2N
Scout 4N

Izzy to +4 w Fred
Forgot to include earlier: nobody has EOTH this or the previous turn.

JC has writing, I can't trade for BW.
Trade writing to Alex for myst+wheel. Izzy was other choice, she doesn't have BW or sailing but I know she has med and poly so I saved writ for one of those from her, if she's so inclined. We can get BW from KK or somebody else who doesn't have myst and maybe trade it to her for both.

Uploading Save now. Note jesusin I haven't pressed enter - you can still trade on this turn and MM the city.

Session Log:

Turn 34, 2640 BC: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt
Turn 34, 2640 BC: Judaism has been founded in Bombay!

Turn 35, 2600 BC: Asoka adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 36, 2560 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 38, 2480 BC: Elizabeth converts to Hinduism!

Turn 40, 2400 BC: You have constructed a Library in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 41, 2360 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 44, 2240 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 44, 2240 BC: Murkyopolis's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 45, 2200 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Washington, Julius Caesar, Asoka, Elizabeth, Kublai Khan, Alexander, Huayna Capac, Isabella
Turn 45, 2200 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 45, 2200 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

Autolog:

Murkyopolis grows: 4
Judaism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 35/460 (2600 BC) [03-May-2008 16:05:40]
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 36/460 (2560 BC) [03-May-2008 16:25:07]
Contact made: Mongolian Empire
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 37/460 (2520 BC) [03-May-2008 18:19:49]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 38/460 (2480 BC) [03-May-2008 18:31:43]
State Religion Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 39/460 (2440 BC) [03-May-2008 18:49:06]
Contact made: Roman Empire
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 40/460 (2400 BC) [03-May-2008 20:03:52]
Murkyopolis finishes: Library

Turn 41/460 (2360 BC) [03-May-2008 20:17:40]

Turn 42/460 (2320 BC) [03-May-2008 20:31:11]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 43/460 (2280 BC) [03-May-2008 20:51:19]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 44/460 (2240 BC) [03-May-2008 21:13:14]
Tech learned: Alphabet
Murkyopolis finishes: Work Boat
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 45/460 (2200 BC) [03-May-2008 22:01:55]
Research begun: Drama (14 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Barracks (10 turns)
Tech learned: The Wheel
Tech learned: Mysticism

Stopping here as agreed - good thing the router's still working ;). Have not opened borders with KK. Diplo screen is attached. Game is still running but I will wait for discussion before continuing, or do we need a longer break?
Not really much to change in our strategy.
But KK is LC's old favorite for PA partner ;), so we probably don't want to piss him off, if there is no urgent need.
I would open borders right away. Our neighbors shouldn't care, as still Alex should be their worst enemy.
Question is what to do if he asks us to quit trading with his worst enemy (probably Liz, as he doesn't know George).
We could even consider to close borders with Liz now, before he can ask. We don't really need OB with Liz, but would forfeit the OB plus points for some time.

If he asks, then we get a +1 with him and a -1 with her, right? Plus we can't talk to her for IIRC 10 turns. Would CTRL-click work in that case? If not we're blind as to if she gets enough on her hands.

OTOH, I forget if we get a -1 for canceling the OB on our own? I don't think so, so maybe we do want to go ahead and do that so that we don't get in a situation where we have to anger a neighbor so early?

What is kks score?

What is kks score?

250 putting him 5th below Liz and above HC.

What unit does he threaten with and who is his worst enemy?

Edit: Btw, what happened with LIz's settler?

What unit does he threaten with and who is his worst enemy?

Liz. And he says "fear my axemen" although I can only see the scout. I'm leaning towards cancelling the OB as long as that doesn't get us a -1 with her immediately.

If he asks, then we get a +1 with him and a -1 with her, right? Plus we can't talk to her for IIRC 10 turns. Would CTRL-click work in that case? If not we're blind as to if she gets enough on her hands.

OTOH, I forget if we get a -1 for canceling the OB on our own? I don't think so, so maybe we do want to go ahead and do that so that we don't get in a situation where we have to anger a neighbor so early?
Caving to cancel trade demand only gives a +.5 which means a point only after 2 (which rarely happens).
Canceling trades gives a permanent -1 (not good).
Canceling OB just means she will not sign OB again for some turns, no attitude penalty.