Thinking a bit more, I think the only success we can pretty much guarantee is Freddy taking Tiwanaku, if we set him on HC and get him some help.
Tiwanaku is no capital and so near to Berlin that he should come with massive forces.
He will not send much to Cuzco before this is done.
If Cuzco (or Kyoto) can fall at all this early in the game is questionable.
With the fabulous AI tactics and a lot of attack archers in the mix early there will be soon several highly promoted archers in defense.

My take is now, that the best war wrt success for Freddy is HC with Alex helping. Kublai joining for attitude is fine, though I doubt that there will be much action at all.
Alex at war has the nice side effect that we will not be dog piled by Liz. If she gets a dog pile war RNG roll she will go for Alex.

I still think we should declare on Toku anyway. Just that we have him in reserve w/o getting negatives from important people. And we can still hope for the freak luck that somebody dog piles him.

I just scanned the map again. It looks HC is a land target for Alex. There is HC's copper tile down by Tiwanaku which doesn't show his culture, because we didn't look lately. That should bring it to 8 tiles.
So that means Alex should give pot and/or BW on top of DoW with HC.

We can also call off attackers with bribes. I have no idea how to calculate the cost but my gut feeling is that it is much cheaper.

In fact initially it's rather more expensive compared to wars against land targets.
It gets cheaper the longer a war lasts, but also depends on the attitude towards the enemy and towards you.
The basic value is similar to start war
game_turn + 50 + 8*number_cities
But here our city also counts.

The attitude factor is based on the average attitude towards the enemy and us. This average should be usually annoyed, for a factor of 2.

Then there is a factor of 40/(turns_of_war+10) applied.

I think we need a pros/cons list for the options we are considering to see everything in one place. I'll give it a quick start, but I don't have enough time right now to complete, so hopefully someone else can add to what I write.

Fred-> Toku
Pros: No adverse diplo effects
Cons: Might not take Kyoto

Alex-> HC
Pros: Can get BW or pott with DOW, Liz will not dogpile us
Cons: Might take Tiwanaku and/or Cuzco

Fred-> HC
Pros: Likely to take Tiwakaku
Cons: Might not take Cuzco

KK-> HC
Pros:
Cons:

Well, there are more options. Like:
Alex (and maybe KK) against HC. Then Fred against Alex.

Probably there would be even the possibility to set Fred after Toku and HC (with help) at the same time and just hope we underestimate his warmonger capabilities :D.

Or how about: just declare on Toku and wait a few turns (we should have at least about 5 turns pleased with KK and Fred). Look if somebody dog piles us and changes the whole image. Not really recommended, as many things can go bad there ;).

I would say the toughest decision for us is currently DoW HC or not, because of Asoka. Otherwise we would have jumped on him already.
But how do we deal with HC at all. He is not really a potential PA partner. It's pretty unlikely that we will ever be able to declare on him w/o pissing somebody. Currently it's only Asoka, but in the future there might be more.
I think the trade off to get +points and war turns with Fred and KK is worth the one point with Asoka, unless we are absolutely sure that Fred will be our final partner.

jesusin, can you give us a rundown on who is whose worst enemy? We can 't figure it out from the save because of the bug klarius was talking about. Especially Asoka, Wshington, Liz, KK, and JC, I guess.


:blush: I'm afraid I can't, I am all bugged too now.

EDIT2: It's funny. No one ever seems excitied about my idea with building cats for Mace Wars. Meanwhile, I just keep on wondering what planet you guys are on. :crazyeye: Cats frigging rule. Forget us building any offensive units. Just cats and a cat-stack defender.

Cats are nice. But that's far into the future. Maces can be very late so don't hold your breath for them.

That all doesn't solve our current problem. On the test maps life was much easier wrt to diplomacy. I always could start several wars w/o annoying anybody important and then just wait who comes out on top.

I am all for a DoW on HC now using Alex, Frederick, and Kublai. We get mutual war points with three AIs with a chance for others to dogpile as well. This more than compensates for the -1 with Asoka.
The remaining question is in what order we should let the AIs DoW. I plan to test how a staggered attack works, using the save from ShannonCT's map that I posted above. My idea is to let Alex (Isabella in that game) DoW first and draw out most of HC's (Alex in that game) units. 2-3 turns later, when HC's offensive units are either insides Alex culture or wounded, we set Frederick ("Peter") and Kublai ("Montezuma") on HC ("Alex"). :crazyeye:

I also think the DoW on Toku now is neat, provided that Toku won't get open borders with Washington or Asoka in the foreseeable future.

I'm a bit concerned about staggering DoWs (also a bit of a problem with trading - but we can probably overcome that).
We don't know where Alex' troops are (yes archers, but in numbers even archers can do something, e.g. kill a last defender).
HC's copper near Tiwanaku will magically attract a lot of units for pillaging (all that can reach the tile in 3 turns and not having something that they can do in 1 turn).
We may end up with several Alex archers outside of Tiwanaku when Fred's swords and axes attack.

Toku opening borders with Washington is impossible in the next few 100 turns (according to my spread sheet he will need +10 for pleased), unless Washington declares on us - and then we have a more pressing problem than Toku's mighty archers.

Long, boring analysis about our DOW decisions, but I won't delete since I spent half an hour on it.I checked klarius' save. Hatty had 6 cities at PA, T133, 4 of which she settled herself, 3 at the beginning, 1 after razing a Monty city (I think--this seems to go against the keeping the first 3 cities). Hatty DoWed Monty on T48, captured 2 cities (or just 1?), finishing him off on T77. Then she DoWed Greece on T88, captured 2 cities, keeping only the second on T117. T88 is also when klarius finished CS, revolted to Bureau and traded for Construction. klarius used multiple war partners.

So Hatty gained two cities pre-mace Wars T48-T77 and 2 cities during the Mace Wars T88-T132. Meanwhile Cyrus killed off Toku and whatever else happened.

In my Erkon game with Cathy (I said Washington before but he was the target), Cathy captured 1 city by herself pre-catapults, then 2 after with my cats as support, on T110 and T117. She settled 3 cities by herself. I used no extra war partners, only Cathy and me. Note these dates all lag behind klarius. I got Liberalism 12 turns later and PA 13t later.

------------
My point is that our focus now should be collecting common war turns with one or more possible partners and gradually picking a partner. Any cities captured pre-Mace Wars is good or bad luck. 3 AIs can stupidly fail too. Even worse, Alex can be the one to capture the city. It really boils down to about a 33% chance, even if he's only got archers. It's the Mace Wars where we can really leverage and control our destiny.

I think it's vital to include the Mace-War bigger picture in our current planning, btw, because Fred is much more workable than KK in terms of causing ensuing DoWs (see klarius' leader_attitude chart). For example, KK is already +3 pleased with Alex. Add +2 hidden, +1 more from religion, +1 from peace and +1 from common war and in about 10-15 turns KK is at Friendly. That means if we partner with KK we probably won't be able to attack Alex till PA. (EDIT: Yeah, I know, KK will get to friendly with him even without the common war.) You may say, "No problem, we'll attack others." I ask, "Do we really want to hand-cuff ourselves so early on?"

Getting Fred to DoW pre-PA is problematic only for Izzy. Period. And she's really not a problem if she's close to last, as klarius mentioned concerning Madrid and the home of Buddhism. Plus, Madid won't get razed.

Getting KK to DoW pre-PA will problematic with JC, Alex, and Toku.

But I'm not actually arguing against KK. :eek: (He shouldn't even raze.) It's an argument against sending Alex against HC.

So I would favor KK + Fred --> HC or Fred --> Toku.

To me the choice boils down to whether we're certain we want Fred or whether we want to keep both options open for now.

We could base our PA-partner choice on which captures Tiwanaku, or which, if either, builds the Pyramids (State Police for WW).

Btw, we could also bring Asoka in against Toku pretty soon, although I think we want to save Drama to get Math from Asoka around T60.

I am all for a DoW on HC now using Alex, Frederick, and Kublai. We get mutual war points with three AIs with a chance for others to dogpile as well. This more than compensates for the -1 with Asoka.
The remaining question is in what order we should let the AIs DoW. I plan to test how a staggered attack works, using the save from ShannonCT's map that I posted above. My idea is to let Alex (Isabella in that game) DoW first and draw out most of HC's (Alex in that game) units. 2-3 turns later, when HC's offensive units are either insides Alex culture or wounded, we set Frederick ("Peter") and Kublai ("Montezuma") on HC ("Alex"). :crazyeye:

I also think the DoW on Toku now is neat, provided that Toku won't get open borders with Washington or Asoka in the foreseeable future.

I agree in general but have some worries:

- What if Alex takes HC cities.
- If we bribe one and trade for BW, there are 2 AI with Alpha, so what if they trade alpha to others while we wait a couple of turns before bribing the others.
- What if a Toku/HC Axe approach our city. The less AI we dow, the less danger we are in.

(so finally I have disagreed with every single point)

- If we bribe one and trade for BW, there are 2 AI with Alpha, so what if they trade alpha to others while we wait a couple of turns before bribing the others.
- What if a Toku/HC Axe approach our city. The less AI we dow, the less danger we are in.

(so finally I have disagreed with every single point)
The TechTradeKnownPercent threshold applies also to AI-AI trades. So knowing 2 with the tech will not let them trade.
Also nobody will have anything worth 2/3 of alphabet, which is the max rebate AIs will give to other AIs.
Anyway, I expect that Alex will give BW on top of DoW, but we may prefer pottery and get BW from Fred on top of DoW as Fred lacks pottery.

Still, I'm anyway no fan of staggering. Just get the war going, sit back and see what happens.

Toku will not get open borders with our neighbors (he will not sign).
With lots of troops entering his land and juicy stuff to pillage nearby, HC will not have any troops to spare for some distant pillaging.

We could trade Izzy BW next turn, perhaps get her up to Pleased and then Alpha for DoW on Toku. EDIT: Hmmm...forgot that Izzy extorted us. Never mind.

Another good reason to DoW Toku this turn is we don't get the negmod with KK.

Devil's Advocate

We want to collect common war turns and possibly capture cities pre-Mace Wars, but we also want as little warring going on as possible, so AIs will research faster and trade us 1) Math, 2) maybe CoL, 3) Liberalism pre-reqs, and 4) maybe Philo sooner. The sooner we get to CS, the sooner we can build cats and launch our Mace Wars. EDIT: During the 45+ turns between CS and PA we should be able to cause the capture of 5-10 cities.

Here's a logic:

Key Premise: There are 2 cities we want for 2x cultural expansion, Cuzco and Kyoto.

1. We DoW Toku this turn and plan to stay at war with him forever. That way we never get a negmod with KK (KK may be one of our Friendly trade partners). Kyoto will be one of our first targets during the Mace Wars, if not sooner, because we need it for 2x cultural expansion.
2. We DoW HC and bring in Fred and KK, all this turn. We might side with KK if he gets Tiwanaku, but Cuzco is the real prize anyway, because we need it for 2x cultural expansion. Btw, Tiwanaku is irrelevant long-term if we side with Fred. Berlin's culture will swallow it up completely, so it could be razed to no effect.
3. By bringing KK to war with HC now, we ensure that he'll hate HC enough so we won't get negmods with him later, if we need to re-DoW HC. We want our partner to capture Cuzco as Target #1 of the Mace Wars.
4. So, if KK captures Tiwanaku, we can decide to side with him. Same with Fred. If we bring in Alex, since Tiwanaku only has short-to-medium-term production and commerce value, we don't care if he captures it. But it means we side with Fred rather than KK. Hence, Gnejs' plan is okay if it's really going to help at all (not sure how Alex's archers are going to help if they just give HC free XP, though).

Devil's Advocate

We want to collect common war turns and possibly capture cities pre-Mace Wars, but we also want as little warring going on as possible, so AIs will research faster and trade us 1) Math, 2) maybe CoL, 3) Liberalism pre-reqs, and 4) maybe Philo sooner. The sooner we get to CS, the sooner we can build cats and launch our Mace Wars. EDIT: During the 45+ turns between CS and PA we should be able to cause the capture of 5-10 cities.
If you want the AI research machinery before e.g. musik theory, you better have them at war.

If you want the AI research machinery before e.g. musik theory, you better have them at war.I meant to ask you about that. What about Math? Anything we can do to ensure Asoka starts on it, rather than LIterautre or anything else? Sounds like a reason to eventually get Liz and Asoka doing some warring too. IT would also be really nice to be able to trade for MC much sooner and get our half-priced forge.

EDIT: For example, if we get an AI into war just before they finish Calendar (or Currency) is there an increased chance they'll go for MC?

Here's a logic:

Key Premise: There are 2 cities we want for 2x cultural expansion, Cuzco and Kyoto.

3. By bringing KK to war with HC now, we ensure that he'll hate HC enough so we won't get negmods with him later, if we need to re-DoW HC. We want our partner to capture Cuzco as Target #1 of the Mace Wars.

KK will not acquire any lasting -points in a war he self declared. But he will not gain years of peace or OB soon, so that's good. Still HC falling in rank (maybe even behind us and Toku) may gain him up to +2.
OTOH, different religion is not maxed, AFAIR.
But, even if KK should be OK, what about Asoka, Washington and Liz. The latter 2 will get up to pleased by shared religion and the minor stuff at some time.

So:
We should expect to stay at war with HC also indefinitely, which at some time may mean we have to self defend. :eek:

But, even if KK should be OK, what about Asoka, Washington and Liz. The latter 2 will get up to pleased by shared religion and the minor stuff at some time.

So:
We should expect to stay at war with HC also indefinitely, which at some time may mean we have to self defend. :eek:One reason I think Hinduism might be helpful for us, despite the negmods with Fred and KK. Hopefully, we could balance that out with lots of positives and then later on drop the religion if necessary.

Here's a logic:

Key Premise: There are 2 cities we want for 2x cultural expansion, Cuzco and Kyoto.

1. We DoW Toku this turn and plan to stay at war with him forever. That way we never get a negmod with KK (KK may be one of our Friendly trade partners). Kyoto will be one of our first targets during the Mace Wars, if not sooner, because we need it for 2x cultural expansion.
2. We DoW HC and bring in Fred and KK, all this turn. We might side with KK if he gets Tiwanaku, but Cuzco is the real prize anyway, because we need it for 2x cultural expansion. Btw, Tiwanaku is irrelevant long-term if we side with Fred. Berlin's culture will swallow it up completely, so it could be razed to no effect.
3. By bringing KK to war with HC now, we ensure that he'll hate HC enough so we won't get negmods with him later, if we need to re-DoW HC. We want our partner to capture Cuzco as Target #1 of the Mace Wars.
4. So, if KK captures Tiwanaku, we can decide to side with him. Same with Fred. If we bring in Alex, since Tiwanaku only has short-to-medium-term production and commerce value, we don't care if he captures it. But it means we side with Fred rather than KK. Hence, Gnejs' plan is okay if it's really going to help at all (not sure how Alex's archers are going to help if they just give HC free XP, though).


I like all this. Only one point to remember: the main goal is not a far-in-the-future dotmap, but a third city for our future partner to give him a head start.

I meant to ask you about that. What about Math? Anything we can do to ensure Asoka starts on it, rather than LIterautre or anything else? Sounds like a reason to eventually get Liz and Asoka doing some warring too. IT would also be really nice to be able to trade for MC much sooner and get our half-priced forge.
Well, not trading him alpha too soon should help against literature. :)
I hope he is on math now, that's really a biggie for the AI. He is not that bad a religious nut that he has to go for theology (but Izzy should do that now). If Asoka did go for theo anyway, we have a bit of a problem as that will take him some time. But still the others also have not much else to do, after we got them writing (many have no religion tech so no PH), so we may get math even w/o Asoka.

2. We DoW HC and bring in Fred and KK, all this turn. We might side with KK if he gets Tiwanaku, but Cuzco is the real prize anyway, because we need it for 2x cultural expansion. Btw, Tiwanaku is irrelevant long-term if we side with Fred. Berlin's culture will swallow it up completely, so it could be razed to no effect.

4. So, if KK captures Tiwanaku, we can decide to side with him. Same with Fred. If we bring in Alex, since Tiwanaku only has short-to-medium-term production and commerce value, we don't care if he captures it. But it means we side with Fred rather than KK. Hence, Gnejs' plan is okay if it's really going to help at all (not sure how Alex's archers are going to help if they just give HC free XP, though).

2. Tiwanaku will provide a nice production boost to Freddie. Anyone else that captures it won't enjoy the same benefits due to the culture pressure from Berlin swallowing up the good tiles.

4. See 2. Maybe we can get Tiwanaku to flip to Freddie if someone else captures it. Perhaps settle an artist in Berlin?
Alex's archers will be instrumental in my grand plan. I assume that HC will go after them in the open, probably wounding some and losing some of his own units in the process. This is in a staggered war of course.

Definitely don't do this strange trade with Asoka.

I don't like the strange trade too much either. But it offers some interesting alternatives:
- We could widely use Medi for trades and for bribes.
- We could forget/delay Lite and/or Drama, and go directly to CS instead.

Well, not trading him alpha too soon should help against literature. :)
I hope he is on math now, that's really a biggie for the AI. He is not that bad a religious nut that he has to go for theology (but Izzy should do that now). If Asoka did go for theo anyway, we have a bit of a problem as that will take him some time. But still the others also have not much else to do, after we got them writing (many have no religion tech so no PH), so we may get math even w/o Asoka.

What is the likelihood of Asoka switching to Judaism? And how would that affect the relations?

We could trade Izzy BW next turn, perhaps get her up to Pleased and then Alpha for DoW on Toku.

We cannot get Izzy to pleased as we have a -1 and need a +4.
BW would anyway not be enough for +4 fair trade as we know her too long.

- We could forget/delay Lite and/or Drama, and go directly to CS instead.Pros
Get to CS somewhat sooner (how much?)
Could use Castes for the Educ GS
First food focus to grow, eventually hammer focus on forge and Cats
No danger of founding Confucianism

Cons
Happiness cap without HeredRule: 6:) (+1 if dyes; +1 if temple; +1 if religion; +1 with a forge)
Won't keep the silver from Washington without GLib :culture:, theatre, or other wonders
Trading possibilities more limited (Drama and Lite are really useful in the medium term)

For me, bee-lining Col>CS would be a strategy for maximizing the Mace Wars if we could get the happiness and Construction significantly sooner. Problem is, in my tests Monarchy and Construction came way too late and even the Liberalism prereqs came too late, if you don't care about the MaceWars. I think it's one of those balances where going too fast with research might not help.

What is the likelihood of Asoka switching to Judaism? And how would that affect the relations?
Asoka will not switch. Unless it spreads to us and we bribe him to do it :lol:.

A switch on his own would need more Jewish than Hindu cities and that's not going to happen as Delhi has Bud already.

Happiness with GLib, theatre, lh, granary, but no GLobe
base +4
furs +1
gold +1
silver +1
dyes +1
theatre +1 (dyes)
forge +2
Total: 11

With the above, after CS at pop11 we could run 2 scientists (+8 GLib = +14:gp:/t) and still produce 30h/t, so we would have production for cats and no GA:gp:.

EDIT: In case we don't build Globe, we may want to gift the crabs to Fred, if still possible, to make sure he'll need them when he improves the dyes. They are a lot of crabs crawling around the coast on this map.

Are we ready to make a decision so jesusin can continue? I'm not sure he can make do with no soccer match for a while.

EDIT: In case we don't build Globe, we may want to gift the crabs to Fred, if still possible, to make sure he'll need them when he improves the dyes. They are a lot of crabs crawling around the coast on this map.
Well, that's probably anyway a good idea.

Are we ready to make a decision so jesusin can continue? I'm not sure he can make do with no soccer match for a while.

I would still like to try out the staggered war option. Can do it tonight, perhaps someone else could try it sooner?

Are we ready to make a decision so jesusin can continue? I'm not sure he can make do with no soccer match for a while.
Well there is still a bit of a timing question (staggered wars :crazyeye:).

My take is - keep it simple:
Trade JC's gold (don't forget that with all this war :)).
DoW HC and Toku.
Trade alpha (may need myst on top) to KK for DoW. That's the most critical for value.
Trade Freddy alpha for DoW and BW. That should work already, but maybe gift myst on top - not that he self researchs it and it adds to our fair trade account.
Trade Alex alpha for DoW and pottery.
Latest addition: Gift crabs to Fred.

Next turn, I would trade IW from JC for alpha. Our monopoly is broken for good, but as we don't have Mansa, nobody will want to trade his newest findings (math) for alpha. And the old stuff shouldn't be worth enough.
There is one danger that could spread alpha further, that's somebody buying a DoW on HC for it. But there aren't many (any?) possibilities as the attitude restrictions also apply for the AI.

I would still like to try out the staggered war option. Can do it tonight, perhaps someone else could try it sooner?
Well, how do you want to test and have it similar to our real situation. We don't even know how many and what units are running around where.
And don't forget, by doing all at the same time, HC has no copper anymore in the capital.

How soon will WW be a problem for us esp considering we're going to be in perpetual war w Toku? Do we need to finish drama for Globe quickly, maybe even before starting lit once we have poly?

How soon will WW be a problem for us esp considering we're going to be in perpetual war w Toku? Do we need to finish drama for Globe quickly, maybe even before starting lit once we have poly?
WW only comes with combat in foreign culture. We will never have WW unless we decide that it's worth it (probably never with Toku).
Now, with LC's cat wars that's another question, but until then we can probably do w/o globe.

Edit:
Drama (culture rate) and theatre (extra happy for culture rate) is still somewhat urgent, as we want to grow soon, not only when all the points LC mentioned are available.

WW only comes with combat in foreign culture. We will never have WW unless we decide that it's worth it (probably never with Toku).
Now, with LC's cat wars that's another question, but until then we can probably do w/o globe.

Edit:
Drama (culture rate) and theatre (extra happy for culture rate) is still somewhat urgent, as we want to grow soon, not only when all the points LC mentioned are available.

ok then let's not worry about getting med or going straight to CoL-CS. Let's figure out who we're gonna DOW and bribe to DOW and continue on drama until poly is available, at which point we have a discussion.

I would like us to get Alex involved in a DOW if only for protection from a bad RNG from Liz - BW or pottery is a bonus.

EDIT: For example, if we get an AI into war just before they finish Calendar (or Currency) is there an increased chance they'll go for MC?
Only techs required for units will receive a bonus (no matter if they really can build the unit then).

MM details
- As far as I can tell, we want to work the second crabs instead of the sci this turn and next. Then the scientist can work again and we'll still grow from pop5 to pop6 in 3 turns. Then both scentists.
- granary (as you already reminded yourself...;))

(If we don't work the crabs this turn, we'd have to work something stupid for a turn, like forest grass. Growing to pop6 1 turn slower doesn't help becausethen we just delay working 2 scientists).

Research detail
Drama -- If we get Poly really soon, we can switch to Lite. Otherwise, I'm not convinced that switching to Lite is better before Drama is done. We'll see. (I tested this and we finish trhe granary perfectly in time for Drama and the theatre perfectly in time for the GLib, so we can keep growing with the cultural slider, as klarius reminded us just now.)

Only techs required for units will receive a bonus (no matter if they really can build the unit then).So you're saying Machinery gets a bonus, MC not? That would mean COnstruction would get a bonus, right?

EDIT: Does anyone doubt that I'm in favor of World War just before the AIs start completing Math?

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/info_center/units/catapult.jpg

:devil:

Well, how do you want to test and have it similar to our real situation. We don't even know how many and what units are running around where.
And don't forget, by doing all at the same time, HC has no copper anymore in the capital.

I intend to do make a relative comparison:

Alternative A, All three AIs DoW on the same turn - have already done this, took 20 turns to capture 1 city.
Alternative B, The weakest and closest AI DoWs first, the others a couple of turns later.

I want to check whether B results in the target AI sending away more units and keeping less at home. And if this will speed up the capture and result in less units suicided by the two stronger AIs.


If B indeed works better I would also like to understand the best timing for the final DoWs. Is it just as the attack units enter the weaker civs culture, or is it later?

So you're saying Machinery gets a bonus, MC not? That would mean COnstruction would get a bonus, right?
Yes, but only a small one for a collateral unit.
What really counts for the AI is attack, city_attack and city_defense.
Still it's not that much for machinery. And machinery is expensive (the value of a tech is scaled with number of turns to research it).

I'm in favor of Gnejs doing his test because it's frustrating when you want to do that but don't get to.

I agree with klarius that the testing kind of needs to take into the factors he mentioned, such as Cuzco immediately getting cut off from the copper, plus also passage to Tiwanaku from Cuzco also possibly getting blocked by Fred's and/or Alex's units, preventing back-ups from coming.

Yes, but only a small one for a collateral unit.
Okay. Does Construction having WEs also count extra? COunt more for Asoka with his ivory?

I want to check whether B results in the target AI sending away more units and keeping less at home.

Why should they?
More likely the other way round if we're talking about at least one neighbor more.
Pillaging is the top reason to go away, as long there is nothing to attack.

And BTW, there is no real strategy in the AI. Every unit makes it's own decisions. Bigger picture things like total civ power don't play a role in unit decisions.
The units decide mostly based on short sighted things like what's nearest and where are the best attack odds.

And with the attack odds there's the vanilla bug that the AI has it totally wrong in the unit decisions, leading to the well known suicidal behavior.

I'm in favor of Gnejs doing his test because it's frustrating when you want to do that but don't get to.

I agree with klarius that the testing kind of needs to take into the factors he mentioned, such as Cuzco immediately getting cut off from the copper, plus also passage to Tiwanaku from Cuzco also possibly getting blocked by Fred's and/or Alex's units, preventing back-ups from coming.

You are welcome to WB my test map as much as you like. :p

I am not going to bother with it, but I agree that our decision should take it into account.

Okay. Does Construction having WEs also count extra? COunt more for Asoka with his ivory?
Should (forgot about them :blush:), independent of having the resource.
But I don't know what's the default UnitAI of WE is.

Why should they?
More likely the other way round if we're talking about at least one neighbor more.
Pillaging is the top reason to go away, as long there is nothing to attack.

And BTW, there is no real strategy in the AI. Every unit makes it's own decisions. Bigger picture things like total civ power don't play a role in unit decisions.
The units decide mostly based on short sighted things like what's nearest and where are the best attack odds.

And with the attack odds there's the vanilla bug that the AI has it totally wrong in the unit decisions, leading to the well known suicidal behavior.

In the staggered war only Alex and his archers will be at war with HC for the first few turns. The odds for HC will be much better and the area around Cuzco should be clear of Alex's archers pretty quickly. I assume that HC's units will then enter Alex culture and start pillaging and doing other stupid AI things. If Cuzco isn't threatened HC may send more (most?) units towards Alex. This is when we let loose our other two dogs of war on him.

Alex will have Alpha, but he wouldn't trade it to KK for DoW yet, right? Not till enough others know it.

Alex will have Alpha, but he wouldn't trade it to KK for DoW yet, right? Not till enough others know it.

Doesn't matter - we're not getting a tech from him along with the DOW so we're not losing anything.

Alex will have Alpha, but he wouldn't trade it to KK for DoW yet, right? Not till enough others know it.
Yes, correct.

Happiness with GLib, theatre, lh, granary, but no GLobe
base +4
furs +1
gold +1
silver +1
dyes +1
theatre +1 (dyes)
forge +2
Total: 11

With the above, after CS at pop11 we could run 2 scientists (+8 GLib = +14:gp:/t) and still produce 30h/t, so we would have production for cats and no GA:gp:.

EDIT: In case we don't build Globe, we may want to gift the crabs to Fred, if still possible, to make sure he'll need them when he improves the dyes. They are a lot of crabs crawling around the coast on this map.

What about monarchy?

I would like us to get Alex involved in a DOW if only for protection from a bad RNG from Liz - BW or pottery is a bonus.

You have a point there.

On the other hand, I wouldn't like to see Alex taking HC cities.

I'm in favor of Gnejs doing his test because it's frustrating when you want to do that but don't get to.


I am not in a hurry to continue. We have important decisions to make/do.

You have a point there.

On the other hand, I wouldn't like to see Alex taking HC cities.

I agree. But we can retake cities. We can't refound Murky.

1% is 1/100. If we're at war for only 40 turns, there's a 34% chance Liz dogpiles somebody. If I did that calc right. While we're eligible, I'd rather it not be us.

I intend to do make a relative comparison:

Alternative A, All three AIs DoW on the same turn - have already done this, took 20 turns to capture 1 city.
Alternative B, The weakest and closest AI DoWs first, the others a couple of turns later.

I want to check whether B results in the target AI sending away more units and keeping less at home. And if this will speed up the capture and result in less units suicided by the two stronger AIs.


If B indeed works better I would also like to understand the best timing for the final DoWs. Is it just as the attack units enter the weaker civs culture, or is it later?


Test completed. Alternative B took 8 turns, the first five only one AI was involved.
But then I went back and tried Alternative A again. This time it also just took 8 turns. :lol:

Test completed. Alternative B took 8 turns, the first five only one AI was involved.
But then I went back and tried Alternative A again. This time it also just took 8 turns. :lol:...but you didn't tell us who captured the city, so obviously it was...Alex. :p

Maybe you should try it another 100 times? :lol:

What about monarchy?I suspect we'll get it around the time of CS too so it could be an alternative. Two reasons to not depend on it:
1. Then we can revolt for only 1 turn and switch to Bureau + Castes
2. So we don't have to build extra garrison units.
3. It costs more (not so important so this one doesn't count).

Of course, we may have to switch to HeredRule eventually if we partner with KK. EDIT: Or if we need him for a Friendly trade partner.

...but you didn't tell us who captured the city, so obviously it was...Alex. :p

Maybe you should try it another 100 times? :lol:

Actually, I tried three times more, being careful to change my actions to get new random seeds.

Instant dogpile (A): 20t, 8t, 13t

Staggered war (B): 8t, 7t, 8t

Monty captured the city every time. This is due to timing, he had two tiles of foreign culture to pass while the others had only one. Monty therefore arrived last after the others had already attacked and decimated the defenders.

In the staggered wars Alex sends about 4 archers directly into Isabellas land. This makes it much easier for Peter and Monty.

INteresting, did Izzy send any units to ALex?

In our case, Alex can attack on T3, KK on T4 (or maybe T3), Fred on T2, but his stack arrives from Hamburg on T4 (Fred kind of staggers his own attack, because of the geography. First, maybe pillagers from Berlin, then a astack from Hamburg).

So in our case staggering could mean Alex and KK DoW now, Fred in a turn or two, for example.

INteresting, did Izzy send any units to ALex?

In our case, Alex can attack on T3, KK on T4 (or maybe T3), Fred on T2, but his stack arrives from Hamburg on T4 (Fred kind of staggers his own attack, because of the geography. First, maybe pillagers from Berlin, then a astack from Hamburg).

So in our case staggering could mean Alex and KK DoW now, Fred in a turn or two, for example.

It didn't look as if Isabella sent a lot of units initially, but my scout wasn't in place to check all possible attack routes. Later on she also sent units to Alex.

If HC is building a wonder in Cuzco and switches to an axe when we DoW, how many turns before he completes that axe? Could be fun to cut off his copper on the turn before it completes. :)

If HC is building a wonder in Cuzco and switches to an axe when we DoW, how many turns before he completes that axe? Could be fun to cut off his copper on the turn before it completes. :)
EDIT2: The following AIs may all be occupying one city's hammers with the Pyramids:
Liz
Wash
HC
Alex
KK
Fred

They will not give up on pyramids unless they get really thin on defenders (unlikely within a few turns).
The wonder will be in the city with most production.So HC is building the Pyramids in Cuzco and won't stop unless it gets attacked and loses some defenders or is already short of defenders. SImilary, Alex, Fred, and KK are all building the PYramids in their capital cities.

Did that happen to Egypt too? :lol:

deleted...

In our case, Alex can attack on T3, KK on T4 (or maybe T3), Fred on T2, but his stack arrives from Hamburg on T4 (Fred kind of staggers his own attack, because of the geography. First, maybe pillagers from Berlin, then a astack from Hamburg).

So in our case staggering could mean Alex and KK DoW now, Fred in a turn or two, for example.

I got a new record in my test game, 5 turns, by staggering the DoWs so that both Peter and Monty's stacks arrived at Athens on the same turn. T1: Isabella DoWs, T2: Monty DoWs, T4: Peter DoWs, T5: Athens captured. :trophy:

(Tried it a second time for 7t...)


Your proposal is definitely promising, but maybe we should let Alex have a turn or two by himself first. We want HC's units to end up in Alex culture before Freddie and Kublai arrives on the scene.

I got a new record in my test game, 5 turns, by staggering the DoWs so that both Peter and Monty's stacks arrived at Athens on the same turn. T1: Isabella DoWs, T2: Monty DoWs, T4: Peter DoWs, T5: Athens captured. :trophy:

(Tried it a second time for 7t...)


Your proposal is definitely promising, but maybe we should let Alex have a turn or two by himself first. We want HC's units to end up in Alex culture before Freddie and Kublai arrives on the scene.I think the main prolbem is making sure we can still bribe all three. That's the risk involved with staggering. Is it worth the risk? Plus it raises a question that I can't answer, even though I've already played: In what order do the AIs play? Most likely the second of Fred and KK will be the ones to capture the city if we do the 2-stack-stagger capture.

Plus it raises a question that I can't answer, even though I've already played: In what order do the AIs play?

This is something I am wondering about too. Is it possible to tell from the logs?

The attitude changes are always logged in the same order:

Freddie
Asoka
Lizzie
Kublai
Alex
HC
Isabella

and

Freddie
Washington
JC
Lizzie

The sequence of turns should be just what you see on the glance screen from top to bottom.

So it's:
Our turn, then
IT Fred
IT KK
IT Alex
IT HC

but we want Fred attacking after KK, so here's a sequence with Alex Dow now (T1), KK next turn (T2), and Fred DoW two turns later (T4).

Ok, correction to the pyramid building continue. :blush:

It's really difficult to find, but they will change their builds when they enter war. Builds with 3 turns or less to go will not change.
They do always reconsider all builds (set the ChooseProductionDirty bit in all cities) when they set a new war plan.
Being DoWed sets WARPLAN_ATTACKED_RECENT, being bribed WARPLAN_DOGPILE.
Both will lead to unit production for about 10 turns (via setting the AreaStrategy for areas they share cities on).

One more consideration:
Do we know, if HC has build any metal units at all, up to now. He might not even be able to fight pillagers entering his land effectively.
The culture border down by Tiwanaku indicates that the copper tile belonged to Fred when we last looked. Just recently Tiwanaku has won the culture battle for the tile.

Edit:
I don't know how we can predict the battle about Tiwanaku no matter what we do :(.
Once any declaration is done, it will probably be down to 2 defenders the others going pillaging.
It may fall on the very first assault (even to archers). And we don't know where our friends have how many units.
Cuzco will at least keep 3 defenders and probably there is also a settler with an escort of 2 defenders and an attacker.
That will take some time to whittle that down, no matter who is first there.
But Cuzco should probably also fall at some time as the production isn't impressive.
Freddy has always the disadvantage to go first against healed and/or promoted units, no matter when he arrives.

So it's:
Our turn, then
IT Fred
IT KK
IT Alex
IT HC

but we want Fred attacking after KK, so here's a sequence with Alex Dow now (T1), KK next turn (T2), and Fred DoW two turns later (T4).


Sounds like a plan. I would suggest that the warrior checks what the garrison in Cuzco is this turn, and then scouts inside Alex' culture after the DoW. We want to keep track of where HC's units are. Similarily, our scout should immediately move to the Berlin/Tiwanaku area so that we can adjust the DoW timings if necessary.

The warrior can see inside Cuzco before we DoW HC this turn. That will tell us about metal units there. As I recall, the scout can't see inside Tiwanaku till next turn, so I think it would be wise to make a final decision on when Fred DoWs after the scout looks in there next turn. If Tiwanaku is pitifully underdefended, maybe Fred DoWs sooner than planned.

So it's:
Our turn, then
IT Fred
IT KK
IT Alex
IT HC

but we want Fred attacking after KK, so here's a sequence with Alex Dow now (T1), KK next turn (T2), and Fred DoW two turns later (T4).

Why?

I prefer KK as our partner.

I think the main prolbem is making sure we can still bribe all three.

I'm all for a simultaneous dow. There will be luck involved in who takes the city, no matter what we do. Why take the risk?

...Erkon, isn't it time you updated your first posts with the recent turnsets? In other words, get off your butt and start working! :p

I'm still alive! :D Im sorry for not being active for a while (Im still on page 35 :cry:). The reason is actually due to working, and the solution would be to stop working. I'm afraid that's not a suitable option :lol:

I'm still alive! :D Im sorry for not being active for a while (Im still on page 35 :cry:). The reason is actually due to working, and the solution would be to stop working. I'm afraid that's not a suitable option :lol:

Print the rest of the thread with a diagonal red "confidential" stationery on it. Then you can read at work at your ease. ;)

Other question:
How do we fit trades with delayed DoW sequences?
We probably get only 1 tech on top of DoW from Alex. Which one do we take BW or pottery?
If BW, what do we build? Do we then self research the dirt cheap pottery (cheaper than meditation because of 2 prerequisites).
If pottery, where,when and from whom do we acquire BW.
Not from HC, I assume, as we don't want him to bribe anybody against us.
Not from Liz, the worst enemy of KK, at least before we have bribed him.
Not from Asoka as we want poly from him.
Washington might be a possibility, but not this turn.
JC, poses the question where we get IW from (that may or may not be urgent depending on copper).
Izzy doesn't have BW.
Toku will not trade.

And anyway every trade more of alpha may be the one that closes the gate to the KK DoW.

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T45-T55 (v3.0)

Most important goals, actions, and intent: Advance towards a GS, set up a common war, trade as efficiently as possible

BUILD QUEUE
T45 Barracks
till pop5/6, Granary better than lighthouse better than barracks
at maximum pop, don't change to Worker, continue as before

UNIT MOVES
Scout closely follows action around the battleground.
Warrior back home after peeking 1SW on T46.
WB connects seafood T46
WORKER ACTIONS
End road T46.
Move to furs T47
Furs connected T49
Start quarry, will be finished T56, just after my turnset.

CITY MM
T45, deer+clams+sheep, 1sci
Work 4 food tiles all the time till pop6 (and beyond). The 5th and 6th citizens will be scientists. Look for an opportunity to run 2 sci the turn we grow to pop6.


DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
T45: gift writing to KK then Freddy. Buy masonry from Izzy with writing. Gift Writing to Asoka, then Eliz, but not to Washington.
Trade for Gold; Gift crabs to Fred; Give in to demands from Kublai and Fred only.
T46: Dow HC - Bribe KK (try to get BW or Pott in the deal) - Bribe Fred (try to get BW or Pott in the deal) - Bribe Alex (try to get BW or Pott in the deal) - Dow Toku.
T47: trade for IW from ???.



TRADE SCREEN ACTIONS
T47: stablish Worst Enemies
Monitor AI war plans each turn
Monitor AI attitudes for shifts each turn


OTHERS
Research: Drama (partial). Change to Lite asap.
Civic change: None
Religion change: Will stop and discuss if religion spreads.
Mid-turnset break: T46, to discuss further tech trading.

Stopping points:
Spread of religion
Any DOW
Contact with a new civ
Someone gets enough on their hands
Getting Poly

I'm all for a simultaneous dow. There will be luck involved in who takes the city, no matter what we do. Why take the risk?

Three risks with simultaneous DoW:
1. HC pillages Freddie and not Alex
2. HC keeps more units close to his cities
3. The attacks on HCs cities fail due to units arriving and attacking on different turns. HC ends up with a bunch of higly promoted units, Freddie and KK get lots of WW and sue for peace.

Three risks with simultaneous DoW:
1. HC pillages Freddie and not Alex
2. HC keeps more units close to his cities
3. The attacks on HCs cities fail due to units arriving and attacking on different turns. HC ends up with a bunch of higly promoted units, Freddie and KK get lots of WW and sue for peace.
1. Yes, but I doubt HC will make it to important tiles.
2. No. There is no reason for that. It's danger (units present within 2 tiles) or no danger (no units).
3. The attack on Cuzco may fail or not anyway. But with the low production there is a chance even if the initial attack fails. The attack on Tiwanaku is very unlikely to fail.
WW has nothing to do with sueing for peace. (Edit: And BTW, WW for deity AI is tiny).
As many things in CIV it's purely random, with some conditions when it's not possible.
Initially, after they talk again, it's necessary that a peace deal can be cut (depending on war success, power and what can be added on the table).
Note that HC will probably have the higher war success, even if he is clearly losing. :crazyeye:
Ater 20 turns of war, peace can also be just given randomly.

1. Yes, but I doubt HC will make it to important tiles.
2. No. There is no reason for that. It's danger (units present within 2 tiles) or no danger (no units).
3. The attack on Cuzco may fail or not anyway. But with the low production there is a chance even if the initial attack fails. The attack on Tiwanaku is very unlikely to fail.
WW has nothing to do with sueing for peace. (Edit: And BTW, WW for deity AI is tiny).
As many things in CIV it's purely random, with some conditions when it's not possible.
Initially, after they talk again, it's necessary that a peace deal can be cut (depending on war success, power and what can be added on the table).
Note that HC will probably have the higher war success, even if he is clearly losing. :crazyeye:
Ater 20 turns of war, peace can also be just given randomly.

2. This is precisely what I mean. If we do a simultaneous DoW then there will be units within 2 tiles of Cuzco all the time. If it is only archer-Alex vs. copper-Huyana in the beginning the chance of HC clearing out a 2-tile radius around Cuzco will be pretty good.

EDIT: And my tests showed how a staggered DoW consistently lead to better success.

UNIT MOVES
Warrior back home.

CITY MM
Work 4 food tiles all the time till pop6 (and beyond). The 5th and 6th citizens will be scientists. Look for an opportunity to run 2 sci the turn we grow to pop6.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Trade for Gold; Gift clams to ???
Looking good. Excellent detail! :goodjob:

I think the warrior should T46 -- go onto hill to spy into Cuzco and see what units are in there, before DoW HC.

On the CITY MM: :blush::blush::blush: You and klarius were right. Not me. The 1 sci should keep working straight to pop6. Pop6 1 turn later but, that gets us +3:gp: which gets us the Academy 1t sooner. Sorry. I accept my 50 lashings.

The idea is to gift the clams crabs to Fred immediatly because he will have the extremely valuable dyes for us when he gets Calendar. But the AIs will have at least 2-3 crabs other than ours available to trade to Fred. We can control our destiny by gifting him our crabs, so when he has dyes available, we cancel the gift and then immediately trade the crabs for his dyes. We will have +2:) from the dyes with our theatre.

I think the warrior should T46 -- go onto hill to spy into Cuzco and see what units are in there, before DoW HC.


I would also suggest to have the warrior hang around for some turns inside Alex' culture, then move within sighting distance of Cuzco when you can find a tile were the city unit cannot reach him (the roads will eventually be pillaged...). We want to keep track of the war progress at both Tiwanaku and Cuzco to be able to judge what diplomatic actions to take.

EDIT: And my tests showed how a staggered DoW consistently lead to better success.
Well, your test had not much to do with our situation. And before you tell me to test it myself, there is no way knowing how many units are really involved and where they are, just that it will be a lot less strong units than in your test. The units that can take Cuzco might not be built by now.

And is it really fastest killing of HC what we want?
Who will be our next beating boy?

I kind of hate to do this to jesusin, but since Gnejs feels so strongly about the staggered DoWs, I think we could make a much more informed decision if jesusin does the follwoing before we do anything else:
T46
warrior SW
scout SW SW (optional: 1 more SW)

This will tell us what HC can send out toward Berlin or Hamburg if Fred DoWs now and it will tell us what offensive and defensive units Fred has in Berlin.

_____________
For the record:
T46 Hamburg has
+ Axe CRI
+ Sword CRI
+ Axe
+ 3 spear CI
+ 2 archers
--------
+ 1 archer CI W of Hamburg

HC had an axe in Cuzco when I came through there 2 turns ago. I think Alex had something like 13 archers, maybe 5 of which were covering a worker.

And is it really fastest killing of HC what we want?
Who will be our next beating boy?

:)
What about leaving Alex out of the fight then? Just KK, Fred and us accumulating good will to one another for ages.

PPP slightly updated here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6802386&postcount=826

:)
What about leaving Alex out of the fight then? Just KK, Fred and us accumulating good will to one another for ages.
Back to the original idea :lol:.
Sure possible, but we lose the dog pile shield against Liz (which means we really should build some units and get the warrior home).
And w/o Alex, HC may really hurt Fred with pillaging (or not depending how much he really has).

but we want Fred attacking after KK,Why?

I prefer KK as our partner.I was wondering if anyone would notice I slipped that in there...:D. How about my answering your question with a rhetorical question:Who will be our next beating boy?It's all about the complicated diplomatic situation we find ourselves in. Btw, to understand it best, I have had to carefully study the Leader_Attitude excel chart that klarius has cleverly assembled and has been conscientiously updating. :goodjob:

Teaming up with KK puts us in a tricky situation if we want to do much warring before the PA, which I think we do. KK will soon be Friendly with JC and Alex. He'll be Pleased with Toku. So after HC, we could only safely bribe KK to attack Fred, if I'm not mistaken, and if KK fails to take Hamburg-on-the-Hills, there go our dyes. (Sending him on Washington would force us to build a number of defensive units rather than focusing on our research-path builds and we almost surely want Liz and Asoka as trading partners all the way to Liberalism.)

Teaming up with Fred makes it easier to continue warring pre-PA. After HC, we can go down on Toku, then Alex, and then, if we've been orgasmitronically seckcessful with those three, we could even entertain the possibility of continuing on to JC and KK. Finally, after all that, Fred is BUddhist, so he won't be particularly infatuated with Asoka, Washington, and Elizabeth, despite his inherent Leader_Attitude pluspoints for them.

But if KK captures Tiwanaku, we can always make do with him. :cool:

EDIT: One more point is that teaming with Fred keeps us more or less on good terms with KK, which could be useful for trading later or if KK decides to wipe out Fred without our permission and we want to PA with him instead.

One thing for sure: We MUST capture both Cuzco and Kyoto 34 turns (+ coming-out-of-resistance) before our victory date to ensure 2x cultural expansion.

One thing in the PPP.
Demands is a bit more tricky.
Demands for minor techs can be fullfilled.
Demands to cancel trade with Washington (which may come up with more contacts of George), I would rather reject.
Demand to cancel deals with Alex, after we've had from him what we wanted (this turn I assume) - why not.
Demands for alphabet from KK or Fred, if we should delay DoWs, have to be rejected. We currently have still 1 attitude to spare with KK and Fred, so DoW might be still possible.

I think Alex had something like 13 archers, maybe 5 of which were covering a worker.Get down, baby! In Sparta or Athens?

PPP slightly updated here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6802386&postcount=826

PPP is looking excellent, jesusin! There are only two items that I disagree with:

1. The simultanous DoWs on T46. I have already argued against this in a number of posts. Let me just add that the limiting factor in this game will not be researching Communism soon enough, nor will it be getting 40 shared war turns by then. This game is won when our ally captures all cities on this continent. We want to speed this up by a) avoiding that our ally wastes units/gets pillaged, b) seeking to make other AIs, especially those that are not going to be research partners, to waste units/get pillaged. Alex would be a typical such AI. Each turn that we speed up the capture of Cuzco is probably worth several turns for our finish date.

2. What is the purpose of sending the warrior home? Isn't he much more useful as a scout?

Gnejs, it would be helpful to know the order the AIs were playing in, in your tests. In our case, Alex actually has the best position.

1. Fred suicides
2. KK suicides
3. Alex suicides or mops up
4. HC (counter-attacks?)
IT- HC fortified defenders recover HP and upgrade any promotions, thus recovering more HP
1. Fred suicides
2. KK suicides
3. Alex mops up
4. HC ...

Gnejs, it would be helpful to know the order the AIs were playing in, in your tests. In our case, Alex actually has the best position.

1. Fred suicides
2. KK suicides
3. Alex suicides or mops up
4. HC (counter-attacks?)
IT- HC fortified defenders recover HP and upgrade any promotions, thus recovering more HP
1. Fred suicides
2. KK suicides
3. Alex mops up
4. HC ...

I don't know, and I can't check until tonight. But perhaps if you or anyone else could just open the test save and note the order in the glance screen?


As we definitely don't want Alex to capture any of the cities it becomes even more important that Alex wastes his units first.

Monty captured the city every time. This is due to timing, he had two tiles of foreign culture to pass while the others had only one. Monty therefore arrived last after the others had already attacked and decimated the defenders or perhaps doing mop-up duty.If you mean the ShannonCT save you linked, the order is........:

Peter
Alex
Izzy..........
Monty

Surprise, surprise.

PPP is looking excellent, jesusin! There are only two items that I disagree with:

1. The simultanous DoWs on T46. I have already argued against this in a number of posts. Let me just add that the limiting factor in this game will not be researching Communism soon enough, nor will it be getting 40 shared war turns by then. This game is won when our ally captures all cities on this continent. We want to speed this up by a) avoiding that our ally wastes units/gets pillaged, b) seeking to make other AIs, especially those that are not going to be research partners, to waste units/get pillaged. Alex would be a typical such AI. Each turn that we speed up the capture of Cuzco is probably worth several turns for our finish date.

2. What is the purpose of sending the warrior home? Isn't he much more useful as a scout?

The PPP is just something to discuss about, is not yet decided and I wouldn't like to play yet, since there are so many different opinions.

I have studied your reasons for the delayed dowing and I still prefer the simultaneous dow.

You say you want "avoiding that our ally wastes units/gets pillaged," and I agree. If Fred and KK waste their units and then Alex take the city, we have achieved nothing.

You say "b) seeking to make other AIs, especially those that are not going to be research partners, to waste units/get pillaged." and I disagree. Not partners must die. In order to die, they must be attacked by our partner. If they get shared war points, it is not going to work.

My main reason for disliking staggered wars is that someone could start researching Alpha and we would lose the opportunity to bribe our future partner into the war.

More considerations

0. KK was pleased with HC last turn and may be again next. We simply don't know what's going to happen to the score rankings in between. (cough cough)

1. Looking at the map again, KK might or might not get any units to within 2 tiles on his first turn, but definitely none from his Capital will. So I don't see any reason to not DoW KK on T46. The question is when to DoW with Fred.
2. We don't know if that forest tile between KK and Tiwanaku is roaded, complicating our timing.
3. I estimate HC has 12-15 units total, based on his power graph.
4. Tiwanaku does not have walls yet, but has barracks, (and only 20% city culture, I suppose).
5. Alex has not researched IW yet, so he may acquire iron during this war.
6. If we DoW all three on T46,
- Alex can attack Tiwanaku on ITb4T49 at the earliest,
- Fred's stack can attack on ITb4T50.
- KK's nearest stack on ITb4T50 (or T49 if forest recently roaded).
7. An Alex archer SoD with 10 archers could easily capture Tiwanaku if it comes down to clean-up duty.

Bottom line to me is that, right now, Tiwanaku is as weak as it's going to be, so if we're going to include Alex, we might as well throw everything at him and hope KK or Fred get lucky. That also enables us to do normal, non-spastic tech trading. But in any case, T46 Alex and KK. Fred T46 or perhaps 1 turn delay.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
T46: Dow HC - Bribe KK (try to get BW or Pott in the deal) - Bribe Fred (try to get BW or Pott in the deal) - Bribe Alex (try to get BW or Pott in the deal) - Dow Toku.
Fred doesn't have pottery to trade!!! Only BW.

Here's an idea pretty much in line with your plan here:
1. T46 Bribe KK (try to get BW or Pott in the deal)
2. T46 Bribe Alex (try to get Pott, if still needed, or BW in the deal)

Decision point:
If you do NOT have BW yet:3. T46 Bribe Fred to war + BWelse:3. we delay Fred 1 turn, and T47 Bribe Fred to war

Get down, baby! In Sparta or Athens?

Athens. It's in turnset report.

I am ok with having Kublai DoW on T46 since HC anyway cannot reach him. Freddie should be delayed at least one turn, but maybe that is enough. On T47 we will know what kind of units are in Tiwanaku - if it is a huge garrison then wait, if it is just a small one then let Freddie dow.

And lets hope and pray that Freddie doesn't send any units to Cuzco on T47, because he would then be the first there and lose them all... :(

Athens. It's in turnset report.

That was Toku... ;)

...but it is great to have these little notes. I suggest that we start using the in-game signs [Alt+S]? to record sightings like these, as we have done in some previous games.

FiveAces turnset report - t34-45

t35 - 2600bc

WarSE - N, sees Kyoto, 8 archers+settler, stack of 5 archers on Wor 1NW.

And lets hope and pray that Freddie doesn't send any units to Cuzco on T47, because he would then be the first there and lose them all... :(
Freddy will send units to pillage Cuzco, which will eventually attack the city. And he will lose them all. :cry:

Alex cannot help. Him attacking Cuzco will only lead to promotions. But anyway he will not attack with archers before every tile is pillaged. The real suicide wish comes only with nothing better to do (or a really big stack adjacent to a city, which doesn't happen soon, as they are all distributed to pillage). As long as there is something to pillage they need a success probability of 45% to attack a city. Though there is a severe bug in this calculation, only a stack of over 10 archers will reach this against a hill city archer.

So if you really wanted Fred to go in after there where already some attacks, you have to wait until after KK comes in force.

KK will not go for Cuzco before Tiwanaku falls. OK, if we tell him to go for Cuzco, some units from Beshbalik might go there, but not from the capital.

Maybe 10 turns wait would do what you want, not 1 and not 4. Tiwanaku will be by then either Greek or Mongol.

What you really have to pray for is that HC gets open borders with somebody, so he sends his settler away with a big escort. And good RNG for Fred.

t37 - 2520bc

Scout: S, SE (sees sparta on coast),

t38 - 2480bc

Scout S, SW (sees remote HC city)FiveAces, could you check if you have saves/autosaves and see how many units were in the various Alex, HC, KK, and Fred cities?

And lets hope and pray that Freddie doesn't send any units to Cuzco on T47, because he would then be the first there and lose them all... :(

Implied in this sentence is the idea that you prefer Fred taking Cuzco. Why? Don't you think KK is a better partner?

FiveAces, could you check if you have saves/autosaves and see how many units were in the various Alex, HC, KK, and Fred cities?

Great idea! :goodjob: don't know why I didn't think of this:

t37: Athens: 3CG Arch, 2CI Arch, 3 Arch
t39: Berlin: 1CI Axe, 5 Arch, 1CI Arch 1N
t41: 1 KK Axe 3S Antium, Beshbalik: 1 med spear, 2 arch, 1CG arch, 1CI arch
t42: Fred: 1CI spear SW Hamburg, 1CI Axe and 1 arch SE Hamburg; KK: 1CI arch 1N Beshbalik; JC: 3CI Arch 1W iron, 1DI arch on iron
t43: Cuzco: 3CG Arch, 1 cover spear, 3 arch, 1CI arch, 1DI arch, 1C2 quetcha, 1 melee quetcha; Karakarum: 5 arch, 1CI spear, 1 medic spear

Cuzco ain't gonna fall anytime soon to anybody, I'm afraid.

I was asking myself: Why didn't I think of this earlier? :lol:

Did you not get a peek into Tiwanaku?

I was asking myself: Why didn't I think of this earlier? :lol:

Did you not get a peek into Tiwanaku?

Not on a saved turn unfortunately. I do not believe it had much in it - maybe 4 units or so. But I confused Toku with Alex earlier, so take that with a grain of salt.

With 11 in Cuzco, 4 sounds about right. Funny thing is though, does that mean he has no defenders guarding workers? More than 15 units seems like a lot.

Man, this was a daunting task to catch up! :lol: Please forgive me if I missed certain details, but from a pure military point of view, it's vital that we get as many units out of Cuzco as possible. This is best achieved by only starting the war between Alex and HC first in isolation. When HC has sent his loose units towards Alex, we let KK and Freddie attack (in a suitable order). It's a very basic war strategy. I strongly oppose a simultaneous DoW with all AIs. We must ensure that Freddie (or KK?) does not meet unnecessary opposition.

And it's not a big problem if Freddie and KK get one extra city each. We need both of the strong to enable a late choice of PA-partner.

BTW, I've never seen an AI learning alpha before math or even later techs, so I'm not afraid of the value of alpha to drop within the next ten turns.

One final observation: I'm immensely impressed by the amount of Civ-knowledge and analysis power presented while I was away. And I thought I didn't have a life... :lol:

With 11 in Cuzco, 4 sounds about right. Funny thing is though, does that mean he has no defenders guarding workers? More than 15 units seems like a lot.

He has a stray axe around Cuzco. I don't think I saw a worker in/around Tiwanuku.

Man, this was a daunting task to catch up! :lol: Please forgive me if I missed all the important details, ;) but from a pure military point of view, it's vital that we get as many units out of Cuzco as possible. This is best achieved by only starting the war between Alex and HC first in isolation. When HC has sent his loose units towards Alex, we let KK and Freddie attack (in a suitable order). It's a very basic war strategy. I strongly oppose a simultaneous DoW with all AIs. We must ensure that Freddie (or KK?) does not meet unnecessary opposition.T46
We Dow HC and Toku
KK DoWs HC (while KK is cautious with HC --> common war turns Priority No. 1 now)
Alex DoWs HCs
====> HC's Cuzco units go west toward Alex.

T47
Our scout peeks inside Tiwanaku, if lightly defended: Fred DoWs HC.

T47
Our scout peeks inside Tiwanaku, if lightly defended: Fred DoWs HC.

I don't understand the peeking part.
What do we do it is heavily defended?
What if the Scout is killed?


We have decided on KK+Fred+Alex attacking HC while we take care of Toku on our own, haven't we? Or does the Quechua in Cuzco and his friends change our plans?

How does the rest of the team feel about simultaneous/staggered dows?

I don't understand the peeking part.
What do we do it is heavily defended? Wait and time Freddies dow for maximum effect.
What if the Scout is killed? We let you walk the plank. :)


We have decided on KK+Fred+Alex attacking HC while we take care of Toku on our own, haven't we? Or does the Quechua in Cuzco and his friends change our plans?


No, still the same plans. But we now know for sure that we need to lure out the Quechua et al from Cuzco if our allies should have any chance of capturing that city anytime soon.

As long as Alex is involved in the initial DOW, I don't have a strong preference over whether simil or staggered. It seems logical that by staggered, some of the Cuzco units would leave the city making it weaker by the time KK and Fred get there. But I think luck is a major part of it no matter what we do. I'm a conservative player though so I wouldn't wait more than a few turns between Alex DOW and the others.

T46
We Dow HC and Toku
KK DoWs HC (while KK is cautious with HC --> common war turns Priority No. 1 now)
Alex DoWs HCs
====> HC's Cuzco units go west toward Alex.

T47
Our scout peeks inside Tiwanaku, if lightly defended: Fred DoWs HC.

This I understand, and I understand the reasoning behind, and I oppose it :D

If we are unlucky, Tiwanaku units will move SE towards KK, and Alex may capture Tiwanaku. What is the risk that KK gets pleased with HC next turn? Is it higher than the risk that HC moves his units towards Karakorum? We may end up in a situation where we have to bring Fred into the war too early just to "save" Tiwanaku :(

And bringing Fred into the war because of light defenses in Tiwanaku may ruin has chances to capture Cuzco. Is one turn really enough to get HC to evacuate his units and send them permanently to Alex-land?

I would prefer that the KK-HC war is delayed one turn (T47), and that Fred-HC war is delayed another two turns (T49). This will maximize the chance that HC looses his cities quickest.

I can't really judge how dangerous it is to wait with KK due to his relation with HC. I'm willing to accept a 20% risk, because the military risk is higher than that.

Please convince me that your "important" details about relations is more important than the outcome of the war :mischief: :lol:

I don't understand the peeking part.
What do we do it is heavily defended?
What if the Scout is killed?


We have decided on KK+Fred+Alex attacking HC while we take care of Toku on our own, haven't we? Or does the Quechua in Cuzco and his friends change our plans?

How does the rest of the team feel about simultaneous/staggered dows?1. Peeking into Tiwanaku. Don't worry about walking the plank. :)Scout goes SW SW SW this turn. Then first thing next turn he goes SW (still in German territory), sees into Tiwanaku and can retreat even before Fred DoW, if it's going to happen that turn.

jesusin, this is my concern for the peeking: klarius talked earlier about the possibility of Tiwanaku getting captured rapidly. It's almost impossible for HC to have many more than 15 units right now (T46). He has about 11 up at Cuzco, so probably only around 4 in Tiwanaku. He'll keep at least 2 as defenders, according to the SDK, right? So for Fred to DoW on T47 may even be too late. That's my concern about peeking--to find out if we are in a hurry to have Fred DoW, not the other way around (too many units). If there are too many units, then we can postpone Fred's DoW as long as klarius calculates we can safely postpone it without losing the opportunity.

2. All the units in Cuzco hasn't changed our plans, as you described them, as far as I know.

3. My basic feelings on the staggering: No strong feelings in favor of staggering. I understand Gnejs' and Erkon's desire to protects KK's and Fred's units. It's obviously a strong strategy, as a war strategy. But for me our number one priority is gaining common war turns with Fred and/or KK and moving along the Tech Tree. Successful warring would be nice, but not at the expense of the other two. (Note to Gnejs: Establishing the DoWs now is more than just accumulating common war turns. It's also about controlling the world scene, which is our best way to keep our homeland safe and possibly manipulate what AIs research. We cannot afford to miss out on the DoWs now. It's not a risk we want to take.)

This I understand, and I understand the reasoning behind, and I oppose it :D

If we are unlucky, Tiwanaku units will move SE towards KK, and Alex may capture Tiwanaku. What is the risk that KK gets pleased with HC next turn? Is it higher than the risk that HC moves his units towards Karakorum? We may end up in a situation where we have to bring Fred into the war too early just to "save" Tiwanaku :(

And bringing Fred into the war because of light defenses in Tiwanaku may ruin has chances to capture Cuzco. Is one turn really enough to get HC to evacuate his units and send them permanently to Alex-land?

I would prefer that the KK-HC war is delayed one turn (T47), and that Fred-HC war is delayed another two turns (T49). This will maximize the chance that HC looses his cities quickest.

I can't really judge how dangerous it is to wait with KK due to his relation with HC. I'm willing to accept a 20% risk, because the military risk is higher than that.

Please convince me that your "important" details about relations is more important than the outcome of the war :mischief: :lol:First I'd like to offer you a towel to mop up after your wet dream. :p Second, I challenge YOU to convince me (or anyone else) that anyone will capture Cuzco-with-walls-on-the-hill before we arrive with cats.

EDIT: Why are you so worried about KK and Fred killing off their units? They'll just build more. BIg deal. Tiwanaku will fall to a war of attrition if not sooner. Cuzco is unlikely to fall till we bring cats. Kyoto and Izzy (on plains) are more likely to fall.

jesusin - please upload the 2160BC-save to the server ;)

EDIT: And it would be nice to move the warrior 1SE up on the hill to find out exactly how many units there are in Cuzco before we DoW... :mischief:

I can't really judge how dangerous it is to wait with KK due to his relation with HC. I'm willing to accept a 20% risk, because the military risk is higher than that.

Please convince me that your "important" details about relations is more important than the outcome of the war :mischief: :lol:Different response.

I understand your desire to maximize the quick conquest of HC. I just think it's putting too much of our game outcome at risk. Right now, as a team, we are working together 1000% better than in previous SGs (and before we worked together extremely well, not to get me wrong here ;)). That's so powerful that I think we would be clever to minimize the randomness that the game can throw at us.

Tiwanaku has so few units, that it doesn't matter if any go toward KK, but if they do, all the more reason to send Fred asap. But far more likely HC will suicide any spare units on ALex's units N NW of Tiwanaku. I doubt Alex will capture Tiwanaku with only archers.

Anyway, to address your last comment about the 20% chance of KK going back to pleased with HC.

T45->T46
KK score 292->323 (passing ALex in the process)
HC score 273->280 (passing no one that we know)

T45 rank difference between KK and HC => 7
T46 rank difference between KK and HC < 7 ?????

In other words, from what we see, the rank difference between the two should have increased by 1, keeping KK Pleased with HC. Instead, HC's score increased by a mere +7 and he passed at least 2 AIs we don't know in score rank, thus pushing KK down to Cautious with him. Now how are we to know if one of those two AIs that HC passed by <7 points won't pass him back next turn? When I was playing my turnset, the AIs were leapfrogging each other back and forth every turn. EDIT: HC doesn't look very food-rich, although Tiwanaku is uncertain, but I think if oen of those other two AIs grows by one popoint in the next turn, it would be worth more than 7 points.

Grab a save and just watch.

klarius, how much will various tech trades and completing IW affect the AIs' score and rank?

I ask because I noticed that KK just finished IW last turn and his score jumped a lot (he also grew one popppoint overall). Now we're proposing to deal Alex Alpha this turn. Will that affect his score enough to send him past KK? Both Alex and HC also haven't completed IW, so they could any time, if this will also give them a score boost. Then there's also us trading Alpha to KK, this turn or next.

Do you know of any article addressing the score mechanics? (Not from teh point of view of maximizing the final score, but from teh point of view of knowing how much pop, land, tech, wonders are contributing to the in-game total score on each turn.)

EDIT: Plus, when we hover over our score, we get a breakdown. Is there any way to get the breakdown for the AIs?

First I'd like to offer you a towel to mop up after your wet dream. :p Second, I challenge YOU to convince me (or anyone else) that anyone will capture Cuzco-with-walls-on-the-hill before we arrive with cats.

EDIT: Why are you so worried about KK and Fred killing off their units? They'll just build more. BIg deal. Tiwanaku will fall to a war of attrition if not sooner. Cuzco is unlikely to fall till we bring cats. Kyoto and Izzy (on plains) are more likely to fall.

Wot? We don't expect Cuzco to fall before cats? Man, I did miss important details :lol:. With walls it will be very tricky to capture.

We spend god-knows-how-many posts to optimize alpha to T45, and then we don't care about Fred's units? :eek: The more successful KK/Fred is in this war, the earlier they can attack next target, the earlier we win the game. It's exponential in the same manner as our progress is. It's VITAL that Fred and KK loose as few units as possible. It's a very big deal. Then they can build their improvements instead of refilling their unit ranks. Accumulating 40 war turns will not be a problem. Getting the AI to capture cities is the number one challenge in this game. Or number two, perhaps three :lol:

And we don't want HC to pillage KK-land or Fred-land. If Cuzco won't fall (we don't know about the walls until the warrior has taken a look?), then at least Fred can use his units to pillage HC back to the stone age. By delaying the Fred-HC DoW, we can put pressure on Cuzco tiles instead of HC units.

Different response.

I understand your desire to maximize the quick conquest of HC. I just think it's putting too much of our game outcome at risk...

It's risky from a military point of view to do a simultaneous DoW, and it's risky from a relation point of view to delay the DoW. Risk risk risk :cry: How do we compare? :confused: I'm uncertain what risk is most risky :lol:...

If we want Cuzco captured soon we have to change our strategy totally.
We have to help - that means:
No scientists, no granary. Barracks and units (get BW this turn, IW next), get a stack down to Cuzco and wait for an opportunity to get the right :confused: civ a shot at one defender.
If we are confident that Gnejs is right that not communism date is critical, but having a strong partner, we should do that.
Staggering will not help much or nothing at all. Even 1 turn can mean that Alex captures Tiwanaku.
Cuzco will not fall before something changes. Alex getting swords maybe, or JC jumping on HC also. And it's a complete crap shot who will get it, just Freddy has probably the worst chances.
BTW, it's not all disadvantage to go in first. The first to go in will only pillage . That gets the opportunity to get attacked by suicidal attack archers for promotions.

The DoW of KK really has to come first and now. It is by far not impossible that a deity AI starts alphabet.
I think the reason for the attitude change is that before both were in the lower half of the ranking giving a mutual +1. That condition could come back, but not very probable. KK also has still some different religion points to come, so he should go back to cautious after some turns then.
The critical part is the value of alphabet vs the price of DoW. I'm not even sure that alpha is enough now at monopoly, but currently we have myst also (maybe not for long). We can establish a margin, by looking if KK gives anything on top of alphabet+myst - DoW.

Also note if you do anything which requires DoW of Alex after Tiwanaku falls that means the price for DoW is getting much higher as then HC is no land target of Alex anymore.

klarius, how much will various tech trades and completing IW affect the AIs' score and rank?


Tech score: (Sum(1+Era of tech) over all techs * 2000)/301
Era is 0 = ancient for the basic techs. 1 = classical for the techs we are talking now: alphabet, math, IW.
If you hover over SGOTM07 in the ranking you see we have 73 tech score from (11/301). We only have 10 techs but alpha is worth 2.

Land score:
((Land tiles owned for at least 20 turns)*2000/total land tiles (554)

Pop score:
(Pop*5000) / max_pop (476)

Wonder score
(5*number_of_wonders)*1000/max_wonder_points (230)

number_of_wonders includes palace and national wonders.

Rank: your guess is as good (or better than) mine. We don't know what the other continent is doing.

The DoW of KK really has to come first and now. It is by far not impossible that a deity AI starts alphabet.
I think the reason for the attitude change is that before both were in the lower half of the ranking giving a mutual +1. That condition could come back, but not very probable. KK also has still some different religion points to come, so he should go back to cautious after some turns then.
The critical part is the value of alphabet vs the price of DoW. I'm not even sure that alpha is enough now at monopoly, but currently we have myst also (maybe not for long). We can establish a margin, by looking if KK gives anything on top of alphabet+myst - DoW.FiveAces can check the save he met KK to see if he already had -1 with HC for religion and if not, other saves to see when he first got it. It's -1 for every 5 turns, right?

If it was a lower-half mutual +1 and you already had them ranked 5 apart, then they're possibly 6 apart now, so one more shift and HC gets +1.

Also, let's not forget the strong possibility of KK extorting Alphabet, causing a -1 when we refurse, and then if we happen to lose one of our +4 for trade, boom, we're back to Cautious, the window of opportunity has closed.

If we want Cuzco captured soon we have to change our strategy totally.
We have to help - that means:
No scientists, no granary. Barracks and units (get BW this turn, IW next), get a stack down to Cuzco and wait for an opportunity to get the right :confused: civ a shot at one defender.
If we are confident that Gnejs is right that not communism date is critical, but having a strong partner, we should do that.One question: How much later do we get PA when we lose the race to Liberalism?

Tech score: (Sum(1+Era of tech) over all techs * 2000)/301
Era is 0 = ancient for the basic techs. 1 = classical for the techs we are talking now: alphabet, math, IW.
If you hover over SGOTM07 in the ranking you see we have 73 tech score from (11/301). We only have 10 techs but alpha is worth 2.

Rank: your guess is as good (or better than) mine. We don't know what the other continent is doing.Thanks. So IW will be worth ~13 points. Can I please pester you for the food calc too? :)

Look, if we're really serious about any warmongering detour from our PA bee-line, why not research Construction right after Drama+Literature? I can see two tech-tree reasons why that makes sense, in addition to having cats sooner. 1) It costs the same as CoL and we might be able to trade for CoL before we finish Construction. 2) We're growing during that time, so our economy hasn't hit full stride yet anyway.

The only sure way to turbo-charge this conquest is with cats.

EDIT: But this is all pure speculation without some serious testing like we did for our PA bee-line.

One question: How much later do we get PA when we lose the race to Liberalism?
We don't lose the race to liberalism unless we are very slow to education. That's the bigger factor then. But even that may then be partially compensated by being able to trade for printing press.

Look, if we're really serious about any warmongering detour from our PA bee-line, why not research Construction right after Drama+Literature? I can see two tech-tree reasons why that makes sense, in addition to having cats sooner. 1) It costs the same as CoL and we might be able to trade for CoL before we finish Construction. 2) We're growing during that time, so our economy hasn't hit full stride yet anyway.

The only sure way to turbo-charge this conquest is with cats.

EDIT: But this is all pure speculation without some serious testing like we did for our PA bee-line.
It's much more likely the other way round. That we can trade for construction once we have CoL. With CoL oracled on the other continent, it may take a looong time till CoL comes out of monopoly restriction on our's. Also with CoL it's then probably only Asoka who would trade and by then we have probably no trade bait. Construction gets widely spread pretty quick.

It's much more likely the other way round. That we can trade for construction once we have CoL. With CoL oracled on the other continent, it may take a looong time till CoL comes out of monopoly restriction on our's. Also with CoL it's then probably only Asoka who would trade and by then we have probably no trade bait. Construction gets widely spread pretty quick.But not till around T88. So we research CoL by hand. I just don't see that slowing us down any more than building RAX and a bunch of Axe when we really need to be building granary>GLib>Globe(or whatever) and the cats are a lot more reliable.

Thanks. So IW will be worth ~13 points. Can I please pester you for the food calc too? :)
What do you mean by food calc :crazyeye:.
I updated the other post with the remaining score components.

What do you mean by food calc :crazyeye:.
I updated the other post with the remaining score components.:lol: Sorry, I meant population (= food, doesn't it? :crazyeye:)

Wot? We don't expect Cuzco to fall before cats? Man, I did miss important details :lol:. With walls it will be very tricky to capture.

...

Walls are pretty irrelevant. Doesn't matter much if it's 40% for culture or 50% for walls for a hill city.
You still need about 3 swords per archer (2 will do with good strategy - but the AI ..). Where shall they come from.
We know it doesn't have walls now (you see the city change w/o having to look again). But walls is a building that can be done even when in danger, so they can come up any time.

T73 Construction researched, after Drama>Literature. Builds: granary>theatre>GLib(2chops)>barracks>lh. 1 cat every 2 turns. pop8 already, pop9 in three turns. etc., now running 80% research 20% culture.

CS about 10 turns slower, but Construction about 15 turns sooner.

T73 Construction researched, after Drama>Literature. Builds: granary>theatre>GLib(2chops)>barracks>lh. 1 cat every 2 turns. pop8 already, pop9 in three turns. etc., now running 80% research 20% culture.

CS about 10 turns slower, but Construction about 15 turns sooner.
Well, if we enter now with some units, we could probably have HE at CS, trade for construction and build 1 cat/turn in bureaucracy. :)
Researching construction is just a terrible waste. We might even get into trouble to trade for any other techs, because we have nothing to offer.

Well, if we enter now with some units, we could probably have HE at CS, trade for construction and build 1 cat/turn in bureaucracy. :)
Researching construction is just a terrible waste. We might even get into trouble to trade for any other techs, because we have nothing to offer.I was trying to avoid the GA pollution. One axe now would probably be plenty to get 10xp and HE could be built instead of the lh and we don't need Bureau to get 1 cat/t on T73. That's 15 cats in action before you trade for Construction. Cuzco is history, Toku too, and Alex is begging for mercy.

We spend god-knows-how-many posts to optimize alpha to T45, and then we don't care about Fred's units? :eek: Why prioritize Alpha?
1. Safety: The sooner we have Alpha, the sooner we can a) get metal and b) foment wars so we don't get attacked.
2. Continue on our PA bee-line.
3. Help KK/Fred get a third city so he can produce 3 units while his enemy is producing 1 or 2.
The more successful KK/Fred is in this war, the earlier they can attack next target, the earlier we win the game.I just don't buy this conclusion. The more successful KK/Fred is in this war, the earlier they can attack next target, and the sooner they hit the wall of superpowered archer garrisons (e.g., Cuzco), where they proceed to decimate their units futilely trying to capture the city. So much for losing as few units as possible.

We are OCC. We can't conquer. Our only cost-effective tool is destroying city defenses and collateral damage for our partner.

The sooner we get cats, the sooner we win.

I was trying to avoid the GA pollution. One axe now would probably be plenty to get 10xp and HE could be built instead of the lh and we don't need Bureau to get 1 cat/t on T73. That's 15 cats in action before you trade for Construction. Cuzco is history, Toku too, and Alex is begging for mercy.
Why are you caring about GA pollution. I here lately the communism date is irrelevant. A GS saves less than 10 turns on that. A GA bomb might get the last 2 tiles missing to domination :lol:.
Sorry I don't buy your HE with one axe. So there's anyway some more production (more turns) needed, IMO.

Why are you caring about GA pollution. I here lately the communism date is irrelevant. A GS saves less than 10 turns on that. A GA bomb might get the last 2 tiles missing to domination :lol:.
Sorry I don't buy your HE with one axe. So there's anyway some more production (more turns) needed, IMO.I'm mostly concerned with the Educ GS. I'm not as confident about Liberalism as you. I'm not worried about an extra axe--it's cheap. Speaking of which, when are we planning to hook up our metal to build those axes for Cuzco? :eek: (Guess we better hope our capital is sitting on iron or coppper.)

Great ideas, but please, lets focus on jesusins turnset.

Whether Cuzco will fall or not doesn't change the fact that we want this war to start now, and we want Kublai and Freddie to be as successful as possible while we don't care about Alex. I would even say that it would be good if Alex gets a beating.

I am also thinking that Alex capturing Tiwanaku might not be that bad if there is a chance that it revolts to Freddie.

On the staggered war debate, I see the following positions:

Simultaneous DoW: klarius, jesusin
Staggered DoW: Gnejs, Erkon
In between: LowtherCastle, FiveAces
Lurking: Mitiu

It seems like a draw, and maybe we shouldn't keep this debate going forever. So how do we resolve it? jesusin decides? Captain decides? Coin toss? Screw this and dow Washington?


My proposal is that jesusin decides, but not until he has scouted Cuzco and maybe Tiwanaku.

Speaking of which, when are we planning to hook up our metal to build those axes for Cuzco? :eek: (Guess we better hope our capital is sitting on iron or coppper.)
Well, first we need BW and IW :p. Then look if and where we have which metals. Then we can fit it in somewhere (sooner better than later, maybe even before marble).

I'm fine with Jesusin decide the exact course.
A few small points still to consider(nothing game breaking I think):
We might want to make HC and Toku furious before we declare, so we are their worst enemy. Maybe our allies pick up a worst enemy trading point, which may in extreme cases even prevent a peace treaty (not very likely).
We should at least tell KK to attack Cuzco. Otherwise the units in Beshbalik might sit there and twiddle thumbs. I don't think it will change anything, but it can't hurt to tell Alex to go for Cuzco and Freddy to go for Tiwanaku.

I am also thinking that Alex capturing Tiwanaku might not be that bad if there is a chance that it revolts to Freddie.
Not likely to flip before the end of game. Berlin needs another expansion to even start to put culture in the tile.
Alex will fight back even before that. A crappy obelisk is enough that Berlin has no chance before it gets over the 5000 culture expansion.

On the staggered war debate, I see the following positions:

Simultaneous DoW: klarius, jesusin
Staggered DoW: Gnejs, Erkon
In between: LowtherCastle, FiveAces
Lurking: Mitiu

It seems like a draw, and maybe we shouldn't keep this debate going forever. So how do we resolve it? jesusin decides? Captain decides? Coin toss? Screw this and dow Washington?


My proposal is that jesusin decides, but not until he has scouted Cuzco and maybe Tiwanaku.Well, I am in the jesusin/klarius camp, unless we can get BW and Pottery with only DoWing KK and Alex on T46. IN any case I want those two on T46.

This is my position (as posted here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6803071&postcount=847)): T46 KK and Alex. If we can get both pottery and BW with them, I'm for delaying Fred. If not, I'm for Fred + BW on T46. I'd like to see us have BW on T46 and IW on T47.

One more point: I'm am "strongly against" any staggering plan that doesn't explicitly include a tech trading solution (don't recall seeing that from eitherGnejs or Erkon).

-------------------------------------------------

@jesusin:Addition to PPP(?) --> After we have BW and IW on T47, decide whether to quarry marble or mine metal.

We should at least tell KK to attack Cuzco. Otherwise the units in Beshbalik might sit there and twiddle thumbs. I don't think it will change anything, but it can't hurt to tell Alex to go for Cuzco and Freddy to go for Tiwanaku.

Why not KK to Tiwanaku?

On the staggered war debate, I see the following positions:

Simultaneous DoW: klarius, jesusin
Staggered DoW: Gnejs, Erkon
In between: LowtherCastle, FiveAces
Lurking: Mitiu

It seems like a draw, and maybe we shouldn't keep this debate going forever. So how do we resolve it? jesusin decides? Captain decides? Coin toss? Screw this and dow Washington?


My proposal is that jesusin decides, but not until he has scouted Cuzco and maybe Tiwanaku.

I was just going to ask if someone would get a -1 towards me if I just decide what is best (a.k.a. KK dows this very same turn) and I play tomorrow morning.

I'm going to have to agree with LC et al on the simultaneous DOW's for Alex and KK, and Fred very quickly if necessary for BW. I don't think we can afford to let KK slip.

Why prioritize Alpha?
1. Safety: The sooner we have Alpha, the sooner we can a) get metal and b) foment wars so we don't get attacked.
2. Continue on our PA bee-line.
3. Help KK/Fred get a third city so he can produce 3 units while his enemy is producing 1 or 2.

<lots of clever stuff Erkon wrote but I cut away for space :lol:>

I just don't buy this conclusion. The more successful KK/Fred is in this war, the earlier they can attack next target, and the sooner they hit the wall of superpowered archer garrisons (e.g., Cuzco), where they proceed to decimate their units futilely trying to capture the city. So much for losing as few units as possible.

We are OCC. We can't conquer. Our only cost-effective tool is destroying city defenses and collateral damage for our partner.

The sooner we get cats, the sooner we win.

Of course I support early alpha, and you don't have to convince me of the reason. I buy it 100%.

My conclusion is based on the assumption that there are several non-hill cities to capture after Tiwanaku. And if this war is war-A, the next war will be war-B (with swords against easy targets) and the next war-C will be with cats.

This discussion highlights two tricky judgments we have to do:
a) what is most important: relations or war progress?
b) what is most important: our contribution to war progress or our path to communism

It not black and white, so we need to agree on a balance. As it is now, I don't feel the team has agreed on the balance in (a). Me and Gnejs are more interested in war progress, while others (the rest?) are more interested in the relations (at least that is the impression I got). And I presume we're even more undecided on b) :cry: Anyway, if the team cannot agree, it's jesusin's call. :lol:

If our aim is to get a war going, and Tiwanaku to fall, then the PPP is fine. It's low risk in the sense that we know we can start the war. There is a risk that Tiwanaku will not fall as quickly as theoretically possible, but perhaps that's not what we want???

This discussion highlights two tricky judgments we have to do:
a) what is most important: relations or war progress?
b) what is most important: our contribution to war progress or our path to communism

Well in all the test games, I would have said the answer to a was war progress. But the way the civs we have in the real game and the religions have sorted themselves out, I'd say relations are more important in the beginning - at least until CS, I think. Think about it this way - we're surrounded by hindu civs that we want to use as trading partners but don't want to eventually PA with. We want a PA with a Buddist civ but none of the others buddas are good trading buddies. And we don't have either religion ourselves. Very complicated situation we're in.

For b, I'm ok with increasing contribution to war progress at the expense of teching to communism as long as:

1) We get CS early enough that it is fully useful in trading
2) We don't lose the lib race (and don't forget we're also racing against the other continent with Mansa and and average of 2-3 cities/civ instead of 1-2)
3) We don't fall behind such that we can't gift tech (if needed) to get Friendly with our PA target
4) We don't actually finish our conquests before we reach comm.

Regarding b)

Axes are not a big help anyway, so it will be Cats.
I'd say research normally (GLIB, Globe, CS, Oxford are our goals). If someone wants Cats asap, he should be discarding GLIB and Lite altogether, shouldn't he? IMHO the quickest way to abundant Cats is Globe-Constr-CS-Oxford.

Of course I support early alpha, and you don't have to convince me of the reason. I buy it 100%. My intention was to show that caring about Fred's units was not in my top three reasons for Alpha, not to convince.

My conclusion is based on the assumption that there are several non-hill cities to capture after Tiwanaku. And if this war is war-A, the next war will be war-B (with swords against easy targets) and the next war-C will be with cats. I just don't see any other easy targets, but I'm all for it.

This discussion highlights two tricky judgments we have to do:
a) what is most important: relations or war progress?
b) what is most important: our contribution to war progress or our path to communism

It not black and white, so we need to agree on a balance. As it is now, I don't feel the team has agreed on the balance in (a). Me and Gnejs are more interested in war progress, while others (the rest?) are more interested in the relations (at least that is the impression I got). And I presume we're even more undecided on b)Okay, this helps clarify things for me. Hopefully, I can clarify my view for you a bit, because I think we're a lot closer than it may seem.

a) relations or war progress?
First, I think I'm talking about something different than what you are calling 'relations.' I'm talking about the fact we cannot bribe Fred to DoW someone he's pleased with and not KK with someone he's Friendly with. In other words, before our PA we cannot make war progress if we cannot bribe our future partner to DoW someone.

As far as getting Friednly relations for our PA, I don't think requires any special consideration other than being careful not to turn down KK and/or Fred, etc.

b) our contribution to war progress or our path to communism
I've been arguing for earlier contribution to our war progress ever since FiceAces mentioned the notion of PA + 1t = Domination. Obviously PA before domination or vice versa is non-optimum, so we try to find a balance, like you say. It's just that my firm belief is that any serious contribution begins with cats. To me, any talk about finishing exponentially faster should be talk about getting cats 1 turn or 2 turns or x turns sooner. At least that's what I've been currently pushing. Earlier I was pushing a slight variation on that, namely, that the fastest victory will be us getting cats + our partner getting Maces (Mace Wars). That second position corresponds to klarius' recent post arguing against us researching Construction. I would assume that you and Gnejs would prefer to get cats earlier, because then we control our destiny--we don't wait for AIs to research Machinery.

Any 'contributions' before cats is just bribing and praying (without a religion :lol:) or bribing and piling production into relatively cost-ineffective axes rather than putting those hammers into granary>theatre>GLib which enables us to bee-line Construction, for example, and pump out cats starting T73.

-------------------------------------------------

@jesusin:Addition to PPP(?) --> After we have BW and IW on T47, decide whether to quarry marble or mine metal.

Ok. This decision is related to the decision of changing to Lite or not, so we'll probably discuss it all at the next stopping point.

I'd say research normally (GLIB, Globe, CS, Oxford are our goals). If someone wants Cats asap, he should be discarding GLIB and Lite altogether, shouldn't he? IMHO the quickest way to abundant Cats is Globe-Constr-CS-Oxford.I've been wondering about this. The thing is we want to have our cake and eat it too. We want research, production, population, war-bribing, and :gp: points. GLib is great for increasing the likelihood of GS. Theatre and the culture slider are great for exploding our population (so are our food resources). Drama and Lite are great for bribing wars and getting Math at just the right time. I tried it today and with the Academy and the 2 free scientists and the booming population, Construction comes pretty fast and I think we should seroiusly consider it. But I don't think we need to commit ourselves to that at all before finishing Lite and Drama. We could plug it in before CoL or not, depedning on how things are progressing, warwise and otherwise.

Why not KK to Tiwanaku?
The units from Karakorum will anyway go there, no matter of target city. There is an important (for the AI :lol:) hill to pillage on the way.
The units from Beshabalik will not get there before it falls probably. So better get them on the move to Cuzco, instead getting stuck w/o roads in Tiwanaku.

The units from Karakorum will anyway go there, no matter of target city. There is an important (for the AI :lol:) hill to pillage on the way.
The units from Beshabalik will not get there before it falls probably. So better get them on the move to Cuzco, instead getting stuck w/o roads in Tiwanaku.

Understood.

There I go then!

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T45-T55 (v3.0)

CITY MM
T45, deer+clams+sheep, 1sci
Work 4 food tiles all the time till pop6 (and beyond). The 5th and 6th citizens will be scientists. Look for an opportunity to run 2 sci the turn we grow to pop6.Once upon a time I recommended working the second crab on T46, but then I agreed with you and klarius that it's better to work the 1 sci all the way through, to get the GS 1 turn sooner... and not work the second crabs until T47.

(Not sure what you're planning, but I didn't want to be responsible for the GS being 1 turn later.)

Once upon a time I recommended working the second crab on T46, but then I agreed with you and klarius that it's better to work the 1 sci all the way through, to get the GS 1 turn sooner... and not work the second crabs until T47.

(Not sure what you're planning, but I didn't want to be responsible for the GS being 1 turn later.)

As long as we are not at pop6 working 2 sci, we will every turn have the possibility to abandon a Clam and go to the library. I plan to do that on the "going to grow to pop6" turn. The GS gets no delay.

Okay. Are you planning to play this morning?

Good luck, jesusin! :goodjob:

T46: Trade for gold from JC, gift Crabs to Fred, Sco 3SW, War 1SW, I see
- HC 2Arc 2W of Cuzco, 1Axe protecting Cows, Set+8Arc+3Spe inside.
- Fred Swo protecting Iron, Swo 1N of Berlin, Set+Axe+Sco+5Arc inside.

MM for all 4food tiles.
Dow HC. Bribe KK for Alpha (adding Myst wouldn't get us anything), +5 Pleased, Asoka -1.
The plan "Alex first, looks for metals" won't work cause Fred has no Pott. So...
Bribe Fred + BW for Alpha, taking care of not accepting Arc in the deal too, +5 Pleased.
HC copper is 1N of Tiwa. Our copper is under our feet. For once, Murky Waters' team has connected Copper without changing any warrior into a Spear! Isabel's copper is 1SE and she says we should fear her Archers... What to do about this?
Alex won't dow both HC and Isab for Alpha. Bribe Alex against HC + Pott for Alpha; Archery? no thank you; +4 Pleased. They all win a +1 towards each other.
Change production to Granary.
Dow Toku on our own (shudder). HC feels bad about it, additional -1.
Ask Fred to go to Tiwa, KK and Alex to Cuzco. It is strange I can ask them to go to Kyoto, but I can't make them dow Toku.

T47: HC Archer comes from Tiwa to take me to the Plank. The Sco can still peek and retire without danger. Fred has reinforced Berlin with 2 Wor. The Swo 1N has disapeared, hey!, didn't I tell you to attack Tiwa?!
We are pop5, 1sci.
Our furs tile is down to 58% from 59%.

Worst enemies:
Aso - Alex oh oh
Fred - HC
KK - Eliz
Wash - Alex
Alex - Wash
JC - Eliz
Eliz - Alex
HC - Won't tell me, how impolite!
Isab - Wash
Toku - Won't tell me, how impolite!

Only 3AI have enough in their hands.

Trade resources screen: can gift crabs to Wash (or Isab or Alex), should I?

Tech resources: All have IW, 2 have poly, 3 have Medi, only Asoka would trade Medi (but not on top of IW). Wash won't trade IW for Pott+Wri. We can get IW for Alpha from 3: JC, Asoka, Eliz.

Asoka is our future Poly provider. I'd prefer to keep something for bribing JC in the future, but trading with eliz would get us a -1 with both KK and JC. Impossible.
Traded IW for Alpha with JC, +2 Cautious. There's Iron in the ice 3W of out city. Eliz has iron 1W of York. There is unclaaimed Iron between Wash and Toku, maybe someone settles there to help with LC's dotmaps. HC has iron 1S of Cuzco. Alex Iron 1N of Sparta. All of those look unconnected, but that means nothing.

Sco 1SW, Spe+ARc+Wor in Tiwa. Sco 1NW, see 2 HC Arc in Alex's land, 4 Alex's Archers are on top of the PH N of them. Sco 2NW, 2 more Alex Arc in Sparta, the Iron isn't mined.
Wash has OB with JC. Fred has a bunch of OB.
War 2NE. Wash has Set+11Arc in or around Wash.

I remind everyone of their war target.

T48: New York is Jewish. Our furs tile is 57% ours. Wor starts roading it.
Nobody has anything in their hands. Nobody has lost power lately.
One of the 2 HC Arc has wounded an Alex Arc in the PH to 1,8. New Archer in Sparta. This fight looks interesting, I'll stay around, but first let's chek the Alex-HC border. Move 1NE-1N of Sparta, see Alex Set+2Arc 1NW, see HC 2Spe+Arc 1NE, one of the Spe is slightly wounded.
3Axe+3Arc in Bombay.

Several AI would trade Sailing now. One of them is Alex, who lacks IW. I don't make that deal, as it would piss off Asoka and Wash. Maybe we should be closing borders with Alex soon (?)
JC has forgotten part of our fair trading.

T49: Interesting interturn. Wash offers Arc for Pott, no thanks. Isab asks to stop trading with Alex... I look at her and realise she has forgotten our previous denial. Deny.
Tiwanaku has been taken by KK, yooohoooo! I look at the map and it looks like razed. Oh, oh.
KK is +4 pleased, Alex is +3 Cautious.
Fred and HC go down in the power graph.
Nobody has got enough. No new trading opportunities.

Furs connected, it's 57% ours.

Sco moves to see the copper, there are KK borders bellow, Tiwa hasn't been razed. I am ahppy, I really prefer KK as a partner and now he has an advantage over anyone else. In addition, a bit of tension between Fred and KK isn't bad, we want one of them to kill the other eventually.
Close borders with Alex while the Sco has half a movement point left, did I mention I prefer to play it safe?
One of the 4 Alex Arc in the PH is wounded. No trace of HC units around here. 1 single Fred Arc looks confused, now it can't take Tiwa.
Then I "optimize" Sco movement and move E, only to find myself between Fred Set+2Arc and HC Set+Arc+Spe, all in Fred's culture. Is the plank waiting for me or are they settler scorts?

Tell all 3 to go to Cuzco, just in case they haven't realised. I won't tell them anymore, I think.

T50: The plank can wait for another day,
Wash has connected silver, the tile is 60% his. Our furs are 56% ours.
Alex settling party is going SE, where to?

Nobody has enough. Neither do I, I'll take my second breakfast now that we have reached a stopping point: Asoka would trade Poly.
MM: from sheep to library.

3 Set parties around : KK, Alex, HC. 4Alex Arc 2SW-1S of Cuzco. Fred Axe+Arc 1SE-1S, Axe+2Spe 2SE.
Asoka trades Poly+Medi for Alpha, +0. Change research to Lite. Wor quarying Marble.

T51: Most advanced are Asoka and Isab, see screenshot.
Pop6, 2sci, abandon the sheep for the furs.
Aso and Isab have PH and Monot. Can't trade for Sailing, KK won't accept Medi+Poly for it. And taking it from Isab for Alpha is not promising. And we don't really need it.
Cuzco (40%, hill) has 8Arc,2Spe,Que, Wor, one of the Spe is wounded. Fred hs Axe+2Spe 1SE and Axe+Arc 1SE-1S. Alex has 4 Arc 1SW-1S, one of them 2,4. The iron is not mined.

Isab boasts about her Axes. Nobody has hands.
Eliz York is slightly in revolt for 2 turns, they want to be Americans. What would Murky say about this?

T52: JC wants Meditation from us. I think I have peed my pants. I say yes, And get him to +4 Pleased. JC is bribeable now, but we have nothing to offer.
Fred Axe+Arc get out of HC bo, why? I refresh their memory and tell everybody to attack Cuzco. There are 3 JC Arc and 2 KK Arc S of HC borders too.
Nobody has enough.
KK is forgetting our gifts, +1common war, +2 fair trading, pleased.
ASoka has Maths and would trade PH.
Cuzco (40%, hill) has 7Arc,2Spe,Que, Wor. There are 2 wounded (2,0 and 0,2) HC Spe in the iron. The first one can take me to the plank, Scout retires to the jungle tile.
10 turns left for our GS.

T53: Fred Axe+Arc+Wounded Spe 1SW1S of Cuzco. 2KK Arc in the same tile. Fred Axe follows.
Eliz Set in our Ice W.
KK has Poly. Fred has Sailing, should I gift Myst in order to trade for it? Nah, he is at +4 fair trade already and we don't need the lh so much.
Asoka Axe+Spe around Berlin. Cuzco (40%, hill) has 7Arc,2Spe,Que, Wor; 2 of the Arc are CGII.
No hands in arms.

T54: Nottingham to our W. Wash passes Alex and JC in points.
No hands. We can get Sailing for IW from Isab. Or from Fred, for Medi+Poly.
Pyramids built far away.

We have 4 pleased friends, since mutual war has rised to +2. WE have accumulated 8 turns of mutual war with 3 civs.
I want to have a peek at the E side of Cuzco, so the Scout moves to Hamburg. 2Arc+Spe there.

T55: JC+Eliz addopt OR. GLH built far away.
OB bring +1 with Asoka and Wash. Aso has Swo, his borders must have claimed the one S.

Worst enemies:
Aso - Alex
Fred - HC
KK - WASH
Wash - Alex
Alex - Wash
JC - WASH
Eliz - Alex
HC - FRED
Isab - Wash
Toku - Won't tell me, how impolite!

Looking at this table I want to close borders with Wash. If we trade for Sailing we won't lose the traderoute. But I'll pass this decision to the next player.
Marble is connected. Lite is due in 2 turn. Granary in 1.

Fred Spe + KK Arc 1SE1E of Cuzco.
Cuzco (40%, hill) has 7Arc,2Spe,Que, Wor. 4 of the units are wounded. I'll stop here, the Scout has half a movement point to retire.

Sco 1SW, Spe+Arc+Wor in Tiwa. Run NE now.


Keep telling Alex to go to Cuzco. Keep telling Alex to go to Cuzco. Keep telling Alex to go to Cuzco. :eek:

Keep telling Alex to go to Cuzco. Keep telling Alex to go to Cuzco. Keep telling Alex to go to Cuzco. :eek:

I'll do, don't worry.

I feel tempted to tell KK to go to Tiwa, not Cuzco as klarius advised. What do you think?

Important question:
Should I close borders with Wash, before someone asks to?

I'd prefer to take the Warrior back home first, as a securityu measure.

I'll do, don't worry.

I feel tempted to tell KK to go to Tiwa, not Cuzco as klarius advised. What do you think?

No, I am more in favour of Freddie taking Tiwa than Kublai doing it. Freddies culture is already there so it will only lead to bad feelings if Kublai grabs it.

Important question:
Should I close borders with Wash, before someone asks to?

I'd prefer to take the Warrior back home first, as a securityu measure.

No, keep them open. We lose our trade route if we close them, can we still trade resources?

No, keep them open. We lose our trade route if we close them, can we still trade resources?

Second on keeping them open. Right now only Izzy and Alex will ask us to stop trading with him, and they are inconsequential.

Do we have OBs with Alex? I'm wondering if we should close those? We don't need them and we don't need Asoka asking us to cancel trade with Alex.

Also: Do we want to build an axe for XP right now?

Do we have OBs with Alex? I'm wondering if we should close those? We don't need them and we don't need Asoka asking us to cancel trade with Alex.

Also: Do we want to build an axe for XP right now?

I was about to ask about closing Alex OB. Currently our Scout is watching the fight from Alex lands.

I don't want an Axe now, I prefer to advance towards Granary now that we don't have anything urgent to build. OTOH it would be a security measure to have an Axe fortified in the capital and I love security.

How about replacing the warrior with a newly built scout? We bring the warrior home and later upgrade him to an axe.

Do we have OBs with Alex? I'm wondering if we should close those? We don't need them and we don't need Asoka asking us to cancel trade with Alex.

Why not? That would give us a +1 with Asoka, wouldn't it? EDIT: On further reflection, I guess we don't get any bonus with Asoka...

Why not? That would give us a +1 with Asoka, wouldn't it? EDIT: On further reflection, I guess we don't get any bonus with Asoka...D'oh!!! You are absolutely ferking right! Keep those dam borders open wide!!!! And if Asoka comes calling, close them right on Alex's a$$. So i guess we also close them if Liz or Wash ask too.

D'oh!!! You are absolutely ferking right! Keep those dam borders open wide!!!! And if Asoka comes calling, close them right on Alex's a$$. So i guess we also close them if Liz or Wash ask too.

No, we don't get a +1. Plese reread the whole klarius korner one hundred times.


I have reached a stopping point, reporting post updated here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6808339&postcount=909

Plese reread the whole klarius korner one hundred times.If you were thinking that was punishment, guess again... ;) (I'm already halfway)

Looking great, jesusin! WTG Kublai! :goodjob:

I'd trade for Med+Poly from Asoka, switch to Literature, and start quarrying the marble now. Why Med? Well, I still think bulbing Philosophy is an option.


EDIT: With Med, we could trade for Sailing from JC.

I also think poly -> literature now and get the GLib out of the way. Meditation is OK, though it will open up another 20 pages of discussion once we get our first GS :lol:.

Way to go jesusin :goodjob: I recommend the trade for poly/med +switch to Lit for GLib. If nothing else, at least med makes PH cheaper to self-research.

One thing of note - if we're using cats at some point, Fred is a better suited partner based on the AI turn order than KK. If we cause collateral damage he will get to attack before any other civ has a chance to heal. But of course if KK is better because of more cities, then we'll use him.

Gyanthaar was very nice to the pyramid builders. They will get the iron earlier, and have a better chance of keeping it from anyone who settles to the W. Speaking of, why haven't we seen a Washington or Asoka settler headed that way?

Great play jesusin! Good initiative with trade etc without requesting directives from the peanut gallery :D

The quick capture of Tiwanaku proves that the simultaneous DoW was successful. :blush: I'll switch to Lurker if Fred manages to capture Cuzco. :lol:

I agree to trade for Med+Poly, and switch to Literature.

Please upload the save to the official site. Did you try to get HC and Toku really upset with us?

Ok, if nobody cares about the WhatHaveYouDone counter, neither do I.

I'm not building a second Scout, it would only induce me to lose the first one. There I go again.

Please upload the save to the official site. Did you try to get HC and Toku really upset with us?

I have now 2 request from Erkon to upload and 1 request from LC not to give clues to the other teams.

I was planning on uploading only at the end of my turnset.

I have now 2 request from Erkon to upload and 1 request from LC not to give clues to the other teams.

I was planning on uploading only at the end of my turnset.

I'm with LC here. Sorry, Erkon. :p

Why are we concerned about giving clues to other teams? Everyone will do their best to beat us regardless of what we do. It's not as we're trying to surprise anyone :lol:

It's a friendly competition and I think it enriches the other teams to know our progress. It's more fun for everyone if we know a bit of the progress of each others teams.

My main concern is that we will eventually refer to wrong saves when someone is away from the thread a couple of days. :mischief:

jesusin, have you considered MM from Deer to Fur this turn?

Report updated.
I have run out of time for this morning, please excuse me.

Please help me, should I trade Sailing from
- Isab?
- Fred ?
- Nobody?

I have now 2 request from Erkon to upload and 1 request from LC not to give clues to the other teams.

I was planning on uploading only at the end of my turnset.I don't recall making that request, but if I did, it was surely to annoy Erkon. :p Frankly, I don't really care. I can't remember us ever changing our strategy or plans because we figured out what others were doing. If someone does that, it'll probably only screw them up. So maybe we should upload every single turn. I bet that would make AlanH happy as a clam with barnacles on his bottom.

Report updated.
I have run out of time for this morning, please excuse me.

Please help me, should I trade Sailing from
- Isab?
- Fred ?
- Nobody?

It's not a stupid WFYABTA mistake - we need it for compass eventually, so if we're not going to self-research it, we'll have to trade for it. Is there any way to get sailing and math (when available) for what we have now? Guess not since IIRC nobody's missing both IW+sailing or IW/sailing+poly+med. I'd say get it from Fred, or is it better to save poly/med to help get math + another DOW from Fred later? He won't research either, and is unlikely to get both by the time he's got math. Hmmm.

In my report I have forgot to add that Pyramids have just been built far away.

Sent from my mobile.

Our trade focus should be exclusively on getting Math now. Otherwise, we might as well have finished Drama first. Someone needs to count how many techs we've traded for, but we may already be getting close to the limit for some of the AIs andover it for others.

Our trade focus should be exclusively on getting Math now. Otherwise, we might as well have finished Drama first. Someone needs to count how many techs we've traded for, but we may already be getting close to the limit for some of the AIs andover it for others.
We have traded for 8 techs already. JC is WFYABTA.
Alex and Izzy not, so they have forgotten one of our techs already.
We don't need sailing currently, so can wait a bit.

Yup. If we can only trade for math or sailing for somebody, it should be math.

We're not going to get Math from ALex or Izzy anyway. Our best shot is Liz. If we trade IW to Izzy for Sailing, then we can put hammers into the lh build instead of the barracks for one turn before switching to GLib.

I wish we hadn't switched to LIte, but just finished Drama, but it's too late now. (That'll teach me to paly snooker with my kid when there are more important things to do...) I don't see us finishing the GLib much faster this way and Drama first would have kept us growing and gotten theatre 'for free.' So it goes. Water over the dam.

I wish we hadn't switched to LIte, but just finished Drama, but it's too late now. (That'll teach me to paly snooker with my kid when there are more important things to do...) I don't see us finishing the GLib much faster this way and Drama first would have kept us growing and gotten theatre 'for free.' So it goes. Water over the dam.

This would have been risky considering Asoka's huge GNP. Or should we have waited with trading for Poly?

We're not going to get Math from ALex or Izzy anyway.
Why are you so sure of that?
Alex might be the first opportunity, if he isn't WFYABTA by then because of the sailing trade.

Sailing is cheap enough. I won't trade for it. LC will be grateful later on when he realises that the hammers I put on the barracks will help his Cats.

Finishing the turnset now.

Why are you so sure of that?
Alex might be the first opportunity, if he isn't WFYABTA by then because of the sailing trade.I meant 'get' in the sense we won't want to trade with him because he's the worst enemy of a bunch of AIs, but now I can't find the list that jesusin made any more. Is it just me or did jesusin delete a bunch of his turnset from his post?

jesusin, please do another round of who is whose worst enemy before you close the file.

Save uploaded to the server.

Turnset autolog:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2200 BC to 1800 BC:

Turn 45, 2200 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 45, 2200 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 45, 2200 BC: You have discovered Masonry!
Turn 45, 2200 BC: The borders of Murkyopolis have expanded!
Turn 45, 2200 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 45, 2200 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have declared war on Huayna Capac!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Kublai Khan has declared war on Huayna Capac!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Frederick has declared war on Huayna Capac!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Alexander has declared war on Huayna Capac!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have declared war on Tokugawa!

Turn 47, 2120 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 48, 2080 BC: Tiwanaku has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Isabella adopts Slavery!

Turn 50, 2000 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 50, 2000 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 52, 1920 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Julius Caesar

Turn 53, 1880 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick
Turn 53, 1880 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!
Turn 53, 1880 BC: Your land area: 20 (3.61%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 54, 1840 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Asoka, Alexander, Isabella
Turn 54, 1840 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Washington, Asoka, Elizabeth, Kublai Khan, Alexander, Tokugawa, Huayna Capac, Isabella
Turn 54, 1840 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Alexander
Turn 54, 1840 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 54, 1840 BC: Elizabeth adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 54, 1840 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 54, 1840 BC: Your land area: 20 (3.61%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 55, 1800 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Julius Caesar

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

Updated log:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...&postcount=909

EDIT: HC will make peace if we pay him Medi. As if we would like to.

The scout has half a movement point left.



The other thing was the session log, this is the real autolog
Tech learned: Masonry
Murkyopolis's borders expand
Confucianism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 46/460 (2160 BC) [07-May-2008 18:58:17]
SGOTM07(China) declares war on Huayna Capac(Inca)
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) declares war on Huayna Capac(Inca)
Frederick(Germany) declares war on Huayna Capac(Inca)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Alexander(Greece) declares war on Huayna Capac(Inca)
Tech learned: Pottery
Murkyopolis begins: Granary (10 turns)
SGOTM07(China) declares war on Tokugawa(Japan)
Murkyopolis grows: 5
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 47/460 (2120 BC) [11-May-2008 08:31:10]
Tech learned: Iron Working
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 48/460 (2080 BC) [11-May-2008 09:30:15]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 49/460 (2040 BC) [11-May-2008 09:51:01]
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 50/460 (2000 BC) [11-May-2008 10:15:10]
Tech learned: Polytheism
Tech learned: Meditation
Research begun: Literature (9 Turns)
Murkyopolis grows: 6
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 51/460 (1960 BC) [11-May-2008 12:26:06]

Turn 52/460 (1920 BC) [11-May-2008 12:42:17]
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 53/460 (1880 BC) [11-May-2008 12:55:25]
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 54/460 (1840 BC) [11-May-2008 13:04:28]
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 55/460 (1800 BC) [11-May-2008 17:52:59]

I meant 'get' in the sense we won't want to trade with him because he's the worst enemy of a bunch of AIs, but now I can't find the list that jesusin made any more. Is it just me or did jesusin delete a bunch of his turnset from his post?

jesusin, please do another round of who is whose worst enemy before you close the file.

It is complete again now.
I have already done the WoEn update too, I won't make the same mistake twice!

jesusin, have you considered MM from Deer to Fur this turn?

No, I didn't. It would probably have been a good idea. :blush:

I meant 'get' in the sense we won't want to trade with him because he's the worst enemy of a bunch of AIs, but now I can't find the list that jesusin made any more. Is it just me or did jesusin delete a bunch of his turnset from his post?

jesusin, please do another round of who is whose worst enemy before you close the file.
It's not that bad with worst enemy trading. At least as you really trade - not gift (e.g. cave to demands).
We know his haters for 50 turns already. That's 1500g trade value per -point (only 500 gift value). We will not reach this even if we should be able to trade for math.
And that's then probably really the last trade ever with him.
We should be more careful with Liz. We definitely want to trade with her in the course of this game. We shouldn't blow up her trade value unnecessarily as long as she is hated by somebody. We may need the allowance later.

Great play jesusin! Good initiative with trade etc without requesting directives from the peanut gallery :D

Sarcasm? Or is it serious?
No, I haven't taken many decisions on my own, I don't want to take a decision everyone else judges to be wrong.

EDIT: Anyway, I have avoided Gnejs' plank.:smug:

Did you try to get HC and Toku really upset with us?

No, I didn't. I can't see the point of doing so.

Both Isabels have a -1 not stopping trades with WoEn, maybe I mixed up both chicks, none of them has forgotten.

This would have been risky considering Asoka's huge GNP. Or should we have waited with trading for Poly?Either way, I just don't think we're going to finish GLib more than a turn or two faster this way. Simply because we can grow to pop8 so fast with the granary and work a lot more hammers while working the 2 sci. We'll see when we complete the GLib. With Drama first I think it was about T68.

Excellent turnset, jesusin!!! Fantastic job on capturing Tiwanaku! KK's thank-note is in the mail. Great turnset report. Thanks for all the detail. Especially thanks for screenshooting the info about most advanced AIs in the world. That may be useful. At least it's good to know that Asoka is at the top.

P.s.: I thought you were going to get us some religion spread? Guess you've hanging araound warmongers a little too much. ;)

The yellow team increase in power has been superior to ours, are they building Axes?

Anyway, we are one of the two first teams to get Alpha.

Excellent turnset, jesusin!!! Fantastic job on capturing Tiwanaku! KK's thank-note is in the mail. Great turnset report. Thanks for all the detail. Especially thanks for screenshooting the info about most advanced AIs in the world. That may be useful. At least it's good to know that Asoka is at the top.

P.s.: I thought you were going to get us some religion spread? Guess you've hanging araound warmongers a little too much. ;)

:)

I just can't believe I have just dowed 2 Deity AIs having only 1 city and 2 warriors. :crazyeye:

:)

I just can't believe I have just dowed 2 Deity AIs having only 1 city and 2 warriors. :crazyeye:No kidding. Just imagine having 2 cities and 4 warriors!!!

The yellow team increase in power has been superior to ours, are they building Axes?

Anyway, we are one of the two first teams to get Alpha.My guess is they traded for Archery. That's 6 points.

Superb turnset, jesusin! :goodjob:

I will be the first to admit (well, the second now that Erkon beat me to it) that the simultaneous DoW worked out fine. :D

Should we get Isa to DoW Tokugawa now? This would weaken them both which would come in handy later... :)

I will be the first to admit (well, the second now that Erkon beat me to it) that the simultaneous DoW worked out fine. :D

Well, maybe the staggered one would have worked better in regards to Cuzco. I just didn't want to lose the chance to have both Fred and KK accumulating shared war turns.

Nice going. :goodjob:

The next important question for planning is:
Do we continue for fastest GS or do we delay to get GLib faster. Obviously that's related to the question what we do with the GS. If we want to lightbulb philo there is no point in having it in 7 turns.

Should we get Isa to DoW Tokugawa now? This would weaken them both which would come in handy later... :)

In my solo games I always wonder if making two soon to go enemies fight among them is a good or a bad idea. Wouldn't they build more units that way?

Appart from that, JC is willing to be bribed into someone.

But why should we waste bribing techs in wars we are not really interested in? I would prefer to just let the actual war go on.

Nice going. :goodjob:

The next important question for planning is:
Do we continue for fastest GS or do we delay to get GLib faster. Obviously that's related to the question what we do with the GS. If we want to lightbulb philo there is no point in having it in 7 turns.

I prefer an Academy.
And I would detest to found Tao before other religion has spread.

An Academy adds 25bpt when we have CS. More if we have cottages, which I think is what our worker should start doing.

In my solo games I always wonder if making two soon to go enemies fight among them is a good or a bad idea. Wouldn't they build more units that way?

Appart from that, JC is willing to be bribed into someone.

But why should we waste bribing techs in wars we are not really interested in? I would prefer to just let the actual war go on.

The point would be to slow them down enough that they don't have longbows when KK et al have Maces. Besides, it gives Isa a -1 with Kublai.

Can we can get Isa to do it for IW+Alpha though? Thos two techs are known by the majority of AIs already.

Should we get Isa to DoW Tokugawa now? This would weaken them both which would come in handy later... :)
We can't get Isa to pleased currently, so that's no option.
The value of this is doubtful anyway.

We can't get Isa to pleased currently, so that's no option.
The value of this is doubtful anyway.

Scrap that idea then. Another option: bring in JC against HC (using Literature). That should decimate the defense.

Btw jesusin, did you ask any favours from the pleased AIs? We might get Sailing that way.

Sarcasm? Or is it serious?
No, I haven't taken many decisions on my own, I don't want to take a decision everyone else judges to be wrong...

I'm serious and I'm referring to this passage:
T47: ...
Tech resources: All have IW, 2 have poly, 3 have Medi, only Asoka would trade Medi (but not on top of IW). Wash won't trade IW for Pott+Wri. We can get IW for Alpha from 3: JC, Asoka, Eliz.

Asoka is our future Poly provider. I'd prefer to keep something for bribing JC in the future, but trading with eliz would get us a -1 with both KK and JC. Impossible.
Traded IW for Alpha with JC, +2 Cautious.

Even if most of the actions were decided on beforehand, it takes confidence to play the turns, something you did without requesting advice every turn. This is exactly how I imagined this succession game to progress: we discuss a lot, the PPP is presented, and the player executes the PPP and adopts to the situation. Well done!

It's a very strange game. Dual DoW without an army by a peace monger?! What's Gnejs gonna do to top that?? DoW Washington and Asoka??? :lol:

...But why should we waste bribing techs in wars we are not really interested in? I would prefer to just let the actual war go on.

One reason is to stall the tech progress by making the AI to focus on war. A lot of obsolete units will not be a problem for superior teched partners, will they?

EDIT: crosspost

It's a very strange game. Dual DoW without an army by a peace monger?! What's Gnejs gonna do to top that?? DoW Washington and Asoka??? :lol:

Build a colosseum of course. :lol:

Scrap that idea then. Another option: bring in JC against HC (using Literature). That should decimate the defense.

Btw jesusin, did you ask any favours from the pleased AIs? We might get Sailing that way.

Literature will not be enough to bribe JC.

Our allowance for gifts is 2*(hasMetCounter + 50). That's not enough for sailing (~210 value) with the AIs pleased with us. And don't ask if you're not sure they accept. That sets the "made demand recent" condition, which is reset only randomly (5% per turn). Every gift is deducted from the allowance, so you don't win anything if you demand earlier.
Only with Washington we would have a 3 times higher allowance, because we are a land target. But he is not pleased and will not cave to extortion.

Edit:
Note also a gift counts the same as a trade for WFYABTA.
We could get sailing anyway cheap (IW->Isa), the question is if we want it.

Literature will not be enough to bribe JC.

Our allowance for gifts is 2*(hasMetCounter + 50). That's not enough for sailing (~210 value) with the AIs pleased with us. And don't ask if you're not sure they accept. That sets the "made demand recent" condition, which is reset only randomly (5% per turn). Every gift is deducted from the allowance, so you don't win anything if you demand earlier.
Only with Washington we would have a 3 times higher allowance, because we are a land target. But he is not pleased and will not cave to extortion.

Edit:
Note also a gift counts the same as a trade for WFYABTA.
We could get sailing anyway cheap (IW->Isa), the question is if we want it.

A klarifying answer as always! :goodjob:

What about asking for a DoW? Is it valued in the same way?

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T55-T65

Build GLib ASAP. I think that's worth the 4 turns delay on GS.

BUILD QUEUE
T55 barracks
T56 granary
T57-T64(63) GLib
then ?

UNIT MOVES
Scout finally does the coastline down to KK.
Then he can continue to watch our friends suicide.

WORKER ACTIONS
Road and chop 1 forest. Then continue to hook resources.

CITY MM
1 turn as is or similar
1 turn no scientists make sure to get more than 10 overflow into GLib.
6 (or 5 if we get math before chop comes in) turns at max hammers no scientists -1 food (50h/T for GLib).
After that go back to scientist configuration.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Nothing directly planned currently. Check opportunities.
Consult team if there is anything interesting.

TRADE SCREEN ACTIONS
Monitor everything interesting.
Trade for math when possible.
Don't trade before to not close opportunities.

RESEARCH
Literature
Drama

A klarifying answer as always! :goodjob:

What about asking for a DoW? Is it valued in the same way?
You need the value of the DoW.
That means only a land target at annoyed or worse could ever be possible.

klarius On your PPP, do we really need the stone etc. before education? Would it be better to build a cottage after your chop (assuming you are chopping the river grassland) before connecting the resources?

I prefer an Academy.
And I would detest to found Tao before other religion has spread.

An Academy adds 25bpt when we have CS. More if we have cottages, which I think is what our worker should start doing.

Do you suggest that we chop a Grassland for cottage instead of a Plains hill for mine?

It will take eight turns to build the GLib if we send the librarians to the mines in two turns. We can speed this up with two turns with a chop. Two turns to Literature means that the GLib can be up in eight turns.

If we spare the delicate hands of the freekin' writers it will take 11 turns (with a chop) instead of 6. 11 turns of 2xScientists = 11*6 = 66 GPP, while 5 turns of GLib + 2xScientists = 5*(8+6)=5*14=70 GPP. Which means we gain GPP by swapping pencils with pickaxes. To the mines, to the mines! :lol:

klarius On your PPP, do we really need the stone etc. before education? Would it be better to build a cottage after your chop (assuming you are chopping the river grassland) before connecting the resources?
I didn't mean the stone ;). But sheep (may be needed for trading) and maybe iron.
A cottage doesn't help us anything, if we don't have the population to work it. So I in fact thought to do the hill W, where a road could help some.
But I can be convinced otherwise probably :).

Thinking about it some more, the road on sheep is probably not necessary. If we give OB to Liz (and she gets OB with George), she will probably road that tile for us.

Build GLib ASAP. I think that's worth the 4 turns delay on GS.


Sounds ok. We have 4 more turns before we need to decide what to do with the GS. We might get lucky and have a religion spread to us.

BUILD QUEUE
T55 barracks
T56 granary
T57-T64(63) GLib
then ?

National Epic, barracks, theatre, or worker. GLib+(Academy or Philo) is going to get us that silver and cow pretty quick. How about a second worker for chopping and cottaging a bit?

National Epic, barracks, theatre, or worker. GLib+(Academy or Philo) is going to get us that silver and cow pretty quick. How about a second worker for chopping and cottaging a bit?

Theatre before NE and barracks for sure, I think. Worker I'm unsure about. I've played 50+ OCC deity games for HoF, most of which were "good" times, and I can count on one hand the number of times I built a second worker before maxing out the total useful pop. But I never have as much food as we have and I'm never this far "behind" on cottage building, so I've never grown so fast that I have citizens working non-optimal tiles because there's no cottages and the library is full. Which might well happen here. In which case we probably should build a 2nd worker before we can grow explosively. I will have to look at the same tomorrow when it's not so late.

Like I said I haven't opened the save yet, but IIRC we have 6:) (4+gold+furs) right now. So we can work 2x seafood, 2 sci, furs, and either marble, stone or deer. If we want to max sci if/when we get the silver and grow to 7, then we need the river cottage now since the library is full and there's no commerce from the stone/deer. Plus if we build theatre after GLib and Fred gets calendar about that time, we get +2:) from the dyes and the culture slider, so we can grow as fast as our food, and each citizen not working a resource or in the library should be working a cottage. So I think a cottage (or 2) now is better than hooking up the rest of the resources.

Is there anything besides the dyes that can come online soon anyway that we want to trade for?

Iron will need to be hooked up around same time as stone. And still more cottages to build. 2nd worker is sounding better and better. Hmmm.

Short Term
GLib>Theatre>lh
grow grow grow to pop10 at least (using :culture: slider as needed)
cottage both river tiles asap
==> Please stop when Drama is completed
___________________________________

Medium Term
+ We need cats asap because any further military advances are waiting for that.
+ We want KK to take down Fred with our cats, then JC when KK gets Maces.
+ No common war points between JC and KK. We'll be able to bribe JC to DoW KK (we can afford that -1 with KK).

Comments on PPP: Drama may not completed in klarius' turn set, so there will be one or two turns between GLib and theater. I am undecided as Gnejs: NE, barracks or worker?

Are we all agreeing on theater + GT when we learn Drama? Or shall we postpone GT and run 10% culture for moderately growth?

EDIT: Fiveaces - the sheep gives 4F 1H 1C so it's a useful tile :D

So, we all agree on turbo GLib then? Starve the city etc...

Then it's the worker action that has to be settled (excuse me for the pun :D) and the build between GLib and Theater.

Can we get a decision on this before klarius plays? I have a bad feeling about klarius-the-restless turning to the dark side and play right away unless we quickly make up our minds, right klarius? :lol: Don't tell us it's too late :eek:

:joke:

BTW, just for everyone to understand a very important unwritten rule: post número 1k is allocated to el capitán, ¿comprende? :trouble:

Comments on PPP: Drama may not completed in klarius' turn set, so there will be one or two turns between GLib and theater. I am undecided as Gnejs: NE, barracks or worker?

Are we all agreeing on theater + GT when we learn Drama? Or shall we postpone GT and run 10% culture for moderately growth?I don't get why Drama would take so long. The theatre is useful for culture and :) with :culture: slider. I think we should discuss GT later.

Sounds ok. We have 4 more turns before we need to decide what to do with the GS. We might get lucky and have a religion spread to us.

National Epic, barracks, theatre, or worker. GLib+(Academy or Philo) is going to get us that silver and cow pretty quick. How about a second worker for chopping and cottaging a bit?I don't see much benefit from using the first GS for Philo. Please help me. Why in the world would we delay our path to CS/Construction? It's then that we're less concerned about hurrying, not now. Are we just going to prolong this miserable existence of warring without cats?

Not even sure I like anything that slows down the GS, although I trust klarius' instincts. I think we need to get to Drama asap and grow till our fat asses can't get up from their chairs.

I intend to play tomorrow, so you can still give some more suggestions. :)

Drama would finish in 9 turns, if we would keep our current research level. But the fast GLib comes with lower research.
10-11 turns for Drama from now. So there are a few hammers we can't immediately sink in theater, but also no build will complete. Lighthouse makes the most sense to me, if we have sailing by then. Maybe even sink a chop into lighthouse and complete this before theater. We can grow to 7 with just culture rate, theater doesn't help there. And then the silver might come online.

I don't see that we need a lot of cottages at all. Only riverside tiles make sense, IMO. Other tiles will not pay compared to coastal tiles for our short research path.

I don't see much benefit from using the first GS for Philo. Please help me. Why in the world would we delay our path to CS/Construction? It's then that we're less concerned about hurrying, not now. Are we just going to prolong this miserable existence of warring without cats?


Would we really delay CS? We can trade Philosophy for Construction, Metal Casting, maybe even Machinery. If you don't bulb Philo, how are you going to get these techs?

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T55-T65

Build GLib ASAP. I think that's worth the 4 turns delay on GS.


I'd like to see a complete comparison on this (Specially about beakers).
How many turns do we save anyway, 5 as Erkon says?

If that's the case, we are losing 4*14bpt from delayed Academy and the direct beakers of working "the wrong tiles"x6. On the other hand, we get 5x6beakers from the GLib.

So we are sacrificing a lot of beakers and a bit of food in order to get some hammers and a few GPP. Is it really worth it?


BUILD QUEUE
T55 barracks
T56 granary
T57-T64(63) GLib
then ?


Theatre, probably. Maybe 2nd worker.


WORKER ACTIONS
Road and chop 1 forest. Then continue to hook resources.


No, no, no, please. We are already late on riverside cottaging. Everything else can wait. Our beakers of the future depend on this.

Would we really delay CS? We can trade Philosophy for Construction, Metal Casting, maybe even Machinery. If you don't bulb Philo, how are you going to get these techs?

If you don't build the Academy, I don't see how you are going to get SciMeth, Comm, etc.



We are in no hurry at all to get MC or Machi. We can trade for them with Philo or with CS, after we have researched ourselves CoL-CS-Paper-(Philo)-Educ-(Philo).

Exciting-LC's-Cats are different, we might want to accelerate them, although they won't tale long to be available for trade. And having Bureaucracy when that happens will help us build Cats a 50% faster.

Do you suggest that we chop a Grassland for cottage instead of a Plains hill for mine?

It will take eight turns to build the GLib if we send the librarians to the mines in two turns. We can speed this up with two turns with a chop. Two turns to Literature means that the GLib can be up in eight turns.

If we spare the delicate hands of the freekin' writers it will take 11 turns (with a chop) instead of 6. 11 turns of 2xScientists = 11*6 = 66 GPP, while 5 turns of GLib + 2xScientists = 5*(8+6)=5*14=70 GPP. Which means we gain GPP by swapping pencils with pickaxes. To the mines, to the mines! :lol:

Is it really 5 turns of (8+6) or is it 3 turns because you can't start GLIB without Lite?

4GPP more is almost irrelevant. Half a granary less is almost irrelevant.
The real exchange is hammers against beakers. I admit that we are in need for hammers (thatre+GT, barracks, lh...) but I would like to know what prize are we paying for each hammer.

I can make the maths myself, but not before Twesday night.

I'm firmly in favor of an academy.

On the GLib "rush" issue, I'd expect it's better to take the hammers now as per klarius's plan before we get the academy up. Otherwise when we need them later they come at the expense of even more beakers.

If you don't build the Academy, I don't see how you are going to get SciMeth, Comm, etc.


I am building an academy with the second GS. I am also running Pacifism for quicker GS#3,4 etc for lightbulbing Edu and SciMet. I am of course dependent on religion spread in the coming 15 turns... ;)

I'd like to see a complete comparison on this (Specially about beakers).
How many turns do we save anyway, 5 as Erkon says?

If that's the case, we are losing 4*14bpt from delayed Academy and the direct beakers of working "the wrong tiles"x6. On the other hand, we get 5x6beakers from the GLib.

So we are sacrificing a lot of beakers and a bit of food in order to get some hammers and a few GPP. Is it really worth it?

Not really losing a lot of beakers compared to propositions like self research construction. :)
BTW, the GS delay of 4 turns is worst case (w/o math), I still hope for only 3.
We also win some culture (GLib>academy) and by that faster access to silver.
But mainly I want it just done. We also need still a lot of other infra and still have no military to speak of.

No, no, no, please. We are already late on riverside cottaging. Everything else can wait. Our beakers of the future depend on this.
Sorry, but we wouldn't have worked a cottage if we had it now and we will not work it immediately after GLib.
But, OK, we can have one river grass cottage by the end of my set.

I think we should delay the GS discussion to when it is available.
One more question about my set:
Close borders with Washington?
Once we want to get out, we need OB. Even with claiming a few more tiles (silver, later cows) we are still blocked by his land. Then we will anyway have to reject cancel trade demands by our friends. :mad:
Also our relation to George is already bad enough currently, the OB + gives us a bit buffer if we have to reject a demand from him.

OTOH, we don't need the OB urgently now. We will have no units to leave in the next 10 turns at least.

Sorry, but we wouldn't have worked a cottage if we had it now and we will not work it immediately after GLib.
But, OK, we can have one river grass cottage by the end of my set.

Food for thought: If we get happy-capped it's better to work the river cottage than a seafood to get a few turns growth towards a hamlet.

I think we should delay the GS discussion to when it is available.
One more question about my set:
Close borders with Washington?
Once we want to get out, we need OB. Even with claiming a few more tiles (silver, later cows) we are still blocked by his land. Then we will anyway have to reject cancel trade demands by our friends. :mad:
Also our relation to George is already bad enough currently, the OB + gives us a bit buffer if we have to reject a demand from him.

OTOH, we don't need the OB urgently now. We will have no units to leave in the next 10 turns at least.

Um don't we lose our trade route if we close borders? And I think LC asked earlier if that would cancel or trades with Freddy/JC. If it would, definitely not good.

Food for thought: If we get happy-capped it's better to work the river cottage than a seafood to get a few turns growth towards a hamlet.

We will not get happy capped. After GLib we still need 3 turns with 2 sci to get the GS. Drama and probably also silver (depending on what George builds) will come in before we grow.


Um don't we lose our trade route if we close borders? And I think LC asked earlier if that would cancel or trades with Freddy/JC. If it would, definitely not good.
No we don't lose our trade route or trades. Otherwise I wouldn't even have considered it. :D
You always can trade through a country at peace.

We will not get happy capped. After GLib we still need 3 turns with 2 sci to get the GS. Drama and probably also silver (depending on what George builds) will come in before we grow.

Ok well then if for some reason we decide to grow slower for an additional 1c in 10 turns :p

No we don't lose our trade route or trades. Otherwise I wouldn't even have considered it. :D
You always can trade through a country at peace.

Really? This is more folklore? I'm sure I've had games where I couldn't trade with someone, and then I opened borders with a neighbor and lo and behold I could trade with the faraway civ. Course maybe everybody just got sailing that turn.

In that case, I say leave them open anyway. We can offset the -1 from KK w HR later if he asks us to stop trading. Nobody else really matters, right?

And if we're not going to cottage more than the river tiles, we don't need a 2nd worker. But is that the right move? Are we confident we won't need to tech to indus/artillery? That's where the non-river cottages will pay off over working the coast. But yeah if we wrap this up around comm or chem, then we don't need them.

OK, team mates. I will go for the fast pyramids no matter if somebody finds a few beakers more otherwise.
I don't want to stop after 7 turns and then wait a week for the academy vs philosophy discussion before continue :).

I also won't cancel OB with George. It's just helping for about 20 turns of 2% chance for the demand. And with luck they might forget the rejection soon (also 2%/T).
We can definitely not afford to have Washington annoyed, so I want the OB points with him.

I got it and will start to play soon.

Ooh we're building the pyramids now. Cool! ;)

Seriously though, good luck!

Would we really delay CS? We can trade Philosophy for Construction, Metal Casting, maybe even Machinery. If you don't bulb Philo, how are you going to get these techs?Philosophy contributes not one green :science: to CS. Our Academy in OCC is huge. Pacifism/2X:gp: @4*3:gp: = 200/24:gp: = 8-9t + 1t revolt = Academy 9-10t later. 50%/175% = 28.6% slower research. CS is 3 turns later. From PA-bee-line point of view, that's not too bad, since we don't research Philo later. From the military point of view, it's: Mañana and mañana and mañana.

We can buy Construciton for Drama + Lite. MC and Mach become available after CS and CS pays for each (2 transactions).

4GPP more is almost irrelevant. Half a granary less is almost irrelevant.
The real exchange is hammers against beakers. I admit that we are in need for hammers (thatre+GT, barracks, lh...) but I would like to know what prize are we paying for each hammer.We're forced to discuss either/or? because of our lack of population.

At pop7, we work 2 quarries, we have hammers.
At pop9, we work 2 quarries and 2 scientists, we have hammers and :gp:.
At pop11, we work 2 quarries, 2 sci, and 2 cottages, we have our cake and eat it.

We have 4 food resources, so what is our excuse? Lack of happies. Until we have enough happy resources, we use theatre + :culture: slider. We need Drama asap.

Lighthouse makes the most sense to me, if we have sailing by then. Maybe even sink a chop into lighthouse and complete this before theater. We can grow to 7 with just culture rate, theater doesn't help there. And then the silver might come online.

I don't see that we need a lot of cottages at all. Only riverside tiles make sense, IMO. Other tiles will not pay compared to coastal tiles for our short research path.With our newly minted granary, we grow to pop7 in 3 turns (max), pop8, 9, 10, 4t each (max), pop11, 12, 5t. We will probably need the theatre, sooner than later.

At pop7, we work 2 quarries and produce 17h/t so lh is 4t and theatre 3. Both are done over night, so the decision will depend on how soon we need the theatre. Lh first is preferably to speed our growth, so we want Sailing immediately after we get Math.

I think our worker priorities are 2 pre-chops till Math and 2 river cottages. I wouldn't even chop GLib without Math. We won't need a hill mine till pop12.

A detail on your City MM: You might consider switching one food to the marble this turn already. Some free hammers, because otherwise we go over 16:food: in the soon-to-be-built granary.

On the GLib "rush" issue, I'd expect it's better to take the hammers now as per klarius's plan before we get the academy up. Otherwise when we need them later they come at the expense of even more beakers.

That's an argument I can readily buy.:goodjob:

We're forced to discuss either/or? because of our lack of population.

At pop7, we work 2 quarries, we have hammers.
At pop9, we work 2 quarries and 2 scientists, we have hammers and :gp:.
At pop11, we work 2 quarries, 2 sci, and 2 cottages, we have our cake and eat it.

We have 4 food resources, so what is our excuse? Lack of happies. Until we have enough happy resources, we use theatre + :culture: slider. We need Drama asap.

Is this an argument against rushing the GLib?
(just asking in order to take post #1000)