Is this an argument against rushing the GLib?
(just asking in order to take post #1000)No, not necessarily. Just making it clear how important it is for us to get Drama and grow asap.

Erkon is going to fine you a turnset for that...if you're lucky. :lol::lol::lol:

Lurking: Mitiu

It seems like a draw, and maybe we shouldn't keep this debate going forever. So how do we resolve it? jesusin decides? Captain decides? Coin toss? Screw this and dow Washington?
{...}

Flip the coin definately - because anyway there will be somekind of randomness in AI moves ... :p

deleted......

Turn log

T55:
Slight change of plan already. Don't build barracks for a turn, but research. Big waste in vanilla, but the barracks hammers are also no big boon.
Scout retreats.

T56:
Change MM to no scientists lots of hammers.
WE Check:
Asoka - Alex
Kublai - George
George - Alex
JC - George
Alex - George
Liz - Alex
Isa - George

No Hands. JC isn't fearing our advancement anymore.
Worker goes to river grass.
Scout is near Berlin. There are 2 swords, 2 axes, 2 spears, 3 archers.
The culture battle for the silver tile might get a bit tougher than thought. George has temple, monastery and obelisk in Washington.

IBT:
Granary->GLib (pyramids wasn't available :lol:)
Lit->drama.

T57:
MM to full hammers.
Worker builds cottage for now, to maximize the time we can get math.
JC and KK are now maxed on different religion with George. As he was their WE enemy even before that will stay so until hell freezes over.
The other WEs will also stay the same until something drastic happens.
As expected lit isn't enough for any declaration of JC.
No hands around.
Scout near Tiwanaku, 4 archers, spear, settler.
Could please somebody tell our friends that building spears makes no sense on a continent w/o horses :crazyeye:.

IBT:
Now it begins:
JC wants us to cancel deals with George. Reject and he is cautious :cry:.

T58:
Scout continues into Mongolia. KK also thinks swords are best used to guard resources.
No hands around.
Liz accepts now OB again. Do it.

IBT:
HC wants to grant us peace fro poly. :D

T59:
Izzy has a missionary headed for Tiwanaku or Sparta probably.
At her speed we might get Buddha before anything else. :lol:
No hands.

T60:
Years of peace time :D. Asoka @ +1 pleased as predicted.
Note that DoW to civs at cautious isn't redded out.
:scan: SDK. Yes there is a > not >= there for denial. So attitude them is much less of a problem. Still we have not enough bait to get him even on Toku.
That also means we could probably set JC to go after KK if we declared first. Probably not the brightest idea, so I leave that out.
Liz is the second to get math. Still no trade. Scout has now done the coastline. Beshbalik has only min garrison archer and spear.
No hands.

T61:
JC has now also math. Asoka would trade, but we have no bait. It's too late for math next turn, so I set 1 scientist to still get the GS at the same time.
The numberless praetorians JC is boasting are 2 in Rome.

T62:
Asoka has incense to spare. I ask him for a gift to reserve it for us as we have no resource to give him currently. So our happy cap has just increased.
Delhi is Hindu now, so Asoka built his first missionary. We should have a good chance to be the target of the second missionary as long as we have no religion.
Izzy has 1 axe, 2 spears and 5 archers to defend Madrid. She also has 2 galleys for whatever reason.
Still no trade for math possible.

T63:
GLib is in. The GPP already counted for this turn, so we get GS in 2 turns already with only 1 scientist. This allows to grow in 2 also.
I pause here so it doesn't look like I never pause. :D
We still cannot trade for math, so question is to trade for sailing. Drama comes in 2 turns.
What to build now (trade for sailing?) and what to do with the worker now that we have a shiny new cottage.
Christianity was founded in Bombay.

Continue:
I trade for sailing with Fred. That shouldn't reduce our chances for math a lot. JC and Isa go WFYABTA.
Switch to lighthouse.
Worker cannot move this turn, so the sequence LC proposed for sheep doesn't work out.
The second cottage is anyway not that important, IMO :eek:.

IBT:
Next problem :eek:.
Alex and Fred make peace with HC.
T64:

Math is wider spread now, so several people would trade. We just cannot afford it (Liz has alpha now).
We lost our dog pile shield with Liz as Alex is at peace with the world now. But she still has no OB with George.
No diplomatic actions possible w/o drama.
I just finish this turn then we can discuss the various options next (with drama and GS).

IBT: A lot happening and I think we really have a bit to discuss.
Drama completes.
Merit Ptah is available for academy or philo.
Hinduism spread, so we could really run pacifism.
We grow to 7.

T65:
I do no move just looking around.
Asoka gone cautious again. Looks like we are doing to good :lol:.
Asoka, Liz, Fred, KK and Alex would trade us math for Drama, but not for less.
Fred could be bribed to go for Toku, but also requires drama. Drama+lit is not enough for Toku+math.
He rejects going after Alex with "nothing to gain". That means power. He would maybe do it if we would declare first, but that's tight (power of him and us has to be 1.5*Alex'). Also expensive, though lit+drama should probably do.
JC may go after HC for drama, if we get him pleased with lit.
Same probably with Asoka and Toku.
Worst enemies are still the same as in the beginning.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1800 BC to 1400 BC:


Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have discovered Literature!
Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 61, 1560 BC: Washington adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 62, 1520 BC: SGOTM07 has completed The Great Library!
Turn 62, 1520 BC: You have constructed The Great Library in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 62, 1520 BC: Christianity has been founded in Bombay!

Turn 63, 1480 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Huayna Capac
Turn 63, 1480 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Murkyopolis will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Alexander has made peace with Huayna Capac!
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Huayna Capac has made peace with Frederick!

Turn 64, 1440 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Elizabeth, Kublai Khan
Turn 64, 1440 BC: You have discovered Drama!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Murkyopolis has grown to size 7
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in Murkyopolis!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Hinduism has spread in Murkyopolis.

Turn 65, 1400 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Alexander
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 56/460 (1760 BC) [12-May-2008 09:51:10]
Murkyopolis begins: Granary (1 turns)
Tech learned: Literature
Murkyopolis finishes: Granary
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 57/460 (1720 BC) [12-May-2008 10:13:17]
Research begun: Drama (8 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: The Great Library (7 turns)

Turn 58/460 (1680 BC) [12-May-2008 10:30:10]
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 59/460 (1640 BC) [12-May-2008 10:39:18]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 60/460 (1600 BC) [12-May-2008 10:49:06]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 61/460 (1560 BC) [12-May-2008 11:12:03]
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Washington(America) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 62/460 (1520 BC) [12-May-2008 11:25:16]
Murkyopolis finishes: The Great Library
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 63/460 (1480 BC) [12-May-2008 11:47:30]
Tech learned: Sailing
Murkyopolis begins: Lighthouse (8 turns)
Alexander(Greece) and Huayna Capac(Inca) have signed a peace treaty
Huayna Capac(Inca) and Frederick(Germany) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 64/460 (1440 BC) [12-May-2008 13:40:41]
Tech learned: Drama
Murkyopolis grows: 7
Merit Ptah (Great Scientist) born in Murkyopolis
Hinduism has spread: Murkyopolis
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 65/460 (1400 BC) [12-May-2008 13:59:00]
Research begun: Priesthood (2 Turns)

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Murky_Waters_SG007_BC1400_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Looking good so far. If I were playing solo I would trade for sailing, start the lh and trade drama for math in 2 turns (if I still could). And I would start chopping another forest for when I thought I would have math to finish lh and start theatre. But then I would probably find out that I couldn't get math anymore, so I'd be mad. Then Asoka would go for music since he has drama and math instead of something useful and I'd be stuck until CS. So I'm not quite sure what to do here.

Looking good so far. If I were playing solo I would trade for sailing, start the lh and trade drama for math in 2 turns (if I still could). And I would start chopping another forest for when I thought I would have math to finish lh and start theatre. But then I would probably find out that I couldn't get math anymore, so I'd be mad. Then Asoka would go for music since he has drama and math instead of something useful and I'd be stuck until CS. So I'm not quite sure what to do here.
Well, Asoka researching MT is probably no big problem, Note, he has calendar and theology by now, so is researching at neck breaking speed anyway.

We need the sheep (or quarried stone) hooked up in 9t for incense. Worker could: cottage plains(4t)> mv SW, road(3T)>road sheep (2t).

In 2 turns at pop7, we fire the sci and work both stones for fast lh>theatre. We'll need to run 10%:culture: at pop8 anyway, so we don't need a theatre till pop9, so we have time for lh first.

No matter who else reearches Math next, we should be able to trade Med + Alha to Liz for it, if we want. So we can trade Fred Med + Poly for Sailing now.

No matter who else reearches Math next, we should be able to trade Med + Alha to Liz for it, if we want. So we can trade Fred Med + Poly for Sailing now.

Unless Fred does the same IBT. Or are they not trading with each other?

Turn log

T55:
Slight change of plan already. Don't build barracks for a turn, but research. Big waste in vanilla, but the barracks hammers are also no big boon.

:crazyeye: So we are sacrificing beakers for hammers and then converting them back in research at a worst rate:crazyeye:

Appart from the minor detail, well done!

I wouldn't trade for Sailing unless we have secured Maths. Waiting a couple of turns for Drama can't hurt.

The turns of common war are going higher! We will probably have to wait for the PA to get our partner to attack the other two common-warrers.

Too bad we don't have a religion yet. WIth Asoka's commerce at greater than 2x the nearest AI, I'm tempted to bulb Philo, just to give us more insurance on the Liberalism slingshot.

klarius: Do you know why we're not Friendly with Fred at +9?

In 2 turns at pop7, we fire the sci and work both stones for fast lh>theatre. We'll need to run 10%:culture: at pop8 anyway, so we don't need a theatre till pop9, so we have time for lh first.


klarius is just sacrificing hammers now in order to grow in 2 turns and to get the GS sooner.

You want to sacrifice GPP for hammers. Maybe it's a good idea. But IFTWABTS-S (I fear that we are becoming too short-sighted).

Can we clarify what do we generally prefer, GPP, hammers, growth, beakers? And then stick to our decision.

:crazyeye: So we are sacrificing beakers for hammers and then converting them back in research at a worst rate:crazyeye:

Appart from the minor detail, well done!


In fact I was transferring hammers from barracks to GLib :crazyeye: (at a bad conversion rate admittedly). I needed a few more beakers to get more overflow into GLib and still make lit in 2.
Didn't now work out anyway with not getting math in time :cry:.

Unless Fred does the same IBT. Or are they not trading with each other?They're Pleased with each other, but I don't think it matters. SHe could give him Poly + Alpha.

klarius: Do you know why we're not Friendly with Fred at +9?
He probably doesn't have enough ranks on us. Note we already passed 2 on our continent. He is also not that high currently. Maybe trading sailing for med and poly (or gifting him the techs if we want to avoid the trade) will fix this as he at least passes JC then.

klarius is just sacrificing hammers now in order to grow in 2 turns and to get the GS sooner.

You want to sacrifice GPP for hammers. Maybe it's a good idea. But I fear that we are becoming too short-sighted.

Can we clarify what do we generally prefer, GPP, hammers, growth, beakers? And then stick to our decision.I think I've been maximally clear with my reasoning: We need to grow to pop11 asap so we can have hammers, GPP, and research (= 2 cottages) all at once.That's the fat cross Gyathaar blessed us with.

0. klarius is getting the GS asap so we can build our Academy, if we want it (and, imo, so we can re-assign the scientist to production).
1. To grow to pop11 fastest, we need a theatre for the 2:)/10%:culture: (plus theatre also increases our chances of taking the silver).
2. To grow faster while working either sicentists or stones (-4:food:), we need lh asap.
3. We can build the lh right now and finish it before we need the theatre, because we won't need the theatre till pop9, which is in ~9t.

One small point, if we are calculating with lots of chops:
What do we do when the incense gift runs out in 8 turns?
If we're sure we don't build any epic soon, we can use marble. Sheep or stone are alternatives.

Is this an argument against rushing the GLib?
(just asking in order to take post #1000)

That settles it! Kill the scientists, abandon the Academy, adopt slavery, mine the Marble, skip the cottages, get a level4 axe so we can build the HE, and lets crank out units!

Kill'em!! Kill'em all!!!
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:

What? klarius has turned to the dark side and is already playing :eek: Hmm, then at least it's just a matter to avoid the cursed post. Was it 1074? Can't remember...

One small point, if we are calculating with lots of chops:
What do we do when the incense gift runs out in 8 turns?
If we're sure we don't build any epic soon, we can use marble. Sheep or stone are alternatives.

I say use the stone for now. We can always swap it with the marble every 10 turns - on OCC we never need both at the same time.

One small point, if we are calculating with lots of chops:
What do we do when the incense gift runs out in 8 turns?
If we're sure we don't build any epic soon, we can use marble. Sheep or stone are alternatives.

We need the sheep (or quarried stone) hooked up in 9t for incense. Worker could: cottage plains(4t)> mv SW, road(3T)>road sheep (2t). It says we can cancel teh deal in 9t, so if that means we could lose it in 8, then we could just go

cottage plains(3t partial)> mv SW, road(3T)>road sheep (2t)

I don't see any reason to chop right now. EDIT: Plus, we're still at +5:health: for forests. +9:health: overall. We've already traded our deer, probably our sheep. It would be nice to avoid using food for health.

I say use the stone for now. We can always swap it with the marble every 10 turns - on OCC we never need both at the same time.The stone hasn't even been quarried yet. Plus, now that we see KK has whales, stone is the only resource (pre-silver and Currency) we can trade to KK to get pluspoints for trading resources.

The stone hasn't even been quarried yet. Plus, now that we see KK has whales, stone is the only resource (pre-silver and Currency) we can trade to KK to get pluspoints for trading resources.

Fair point :blush: At work so I haven't opened the save.

I'll be verry busy until thursday ( I'm preparing for driving licence exam and legislation is veery nasty to memorize - yes, don't laugh ... I know that is almost a shame to be at 31 and didn't have it yet but that's life ... ) - so, please, could you skip me with Erkon for the next 10 turns ? :)

Thanks in advance !

P.S. : klarius - nice moves, especially with building the GLib :goodjob: ! When we plan to build some units ? After researching/trading Construction in order to build some cats also to soften the defense of choosen enemy cities ?

Can we clarify what do we generally prefer, GPP, hammers, growth, beakers? And then stick to our decision.

This will always fluctuate depending on what stage we are in the game. What is needed is more foresight of what we need in 20-30 turns, and I'm not sure this team is capable/suitable of predicting/agreeing on the priority :lol: And perhaps it's not even possible due to the dynamics of the game.

The best way to get less short-sighted is to add the preference in the PPP, such as "this turn set will focus on growth" etc. Then the rest of us can comment on the intention, not the MM details. Do you think this is a step forward?

I'll be verry busy until thursday ( I prepare for driving licence exam and legislation is veery nasty to memorize - yes, don't laugh ... I know that is almost a shame to be at 31 and didn't have it yet but that's life ... ) - so, please, could you skip me with Erkon for the next 10 turns ? :)

Thanks in advance !

P.S. : klarius - nice moves ! When we plan to build some units ? After researching/trading Construction in order to build some cats also to soften the defense of choosen enemy cities ?

I'm fine with playing next. Do you want to be skipped completely, or do you want to swap with me?

klarius, you have a few turns left to play, right? Please state what kind of input/advice you are waiting for: build? worker action? tech trade? etc...

Without opening the save I suggest that you trade for sailing so we can start the lighthouse right away. Drama will be enough for math, will it not?

klarius, did you consider MM to complete GLib and Drama on the same turn while maximising growth and GPP? Not easy I know...

I'm fine with playing next. Do you want to be skipped completely, or do you want to swap with me?


Aaah - wrong english usage again :( : of course I want a swap and not a complete skip. :)

Regards

Finished. Updated log (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6811675&postcount=1004).

Lots to discuss :lol:.

We have a GS to use. Hindu has spread. Fred and Alex made peace with HC. And math trade is possible but requires drama (which we also need as DoW bait).

Finished. Updated log (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6811675&postcount=1004).

Lots to discuss :lol:.

We have a GS to use. Hindu has spread. Fred and Alex made peace with HC. And math trade is possible but requires drama (which we also need as DoW bait).:lol: Hinduism to boot! That was a thorough turnset! Exemplary play! :goodjob:

Great play klarius :goodjob: Another turn set that is played according to the PPP with a suitable amount of individual decision. Nice.

We have achieved most of what we wanted and no real setbacks. Excellent. Now the destiny is in our hands. We just have to decide on what we want! The upcoming turn set is probably the most important in the game. Lucky it's in the hands of the incompetent captain :lol:

I can't see how you can go wrong, as long as you follow your own advice:Another turn set that is played according to the PPP
with a suitable amount of individual decision. Nought.;)

This will always fluctuate depending on what stage we are in the game. What is needed is more foresight of what we need in 20-30 turns, and I'm not sure this team is capable/suitable of predicting/agreeing on the priority :lol: And perhaps it's not even possible due to the dynamics of the game.

The best way to get less short-sighted is to add the preference in the PPP, such as "this turn set will focus on growth" etc. Then the rest of us can comment on the intention, not the MM details. Do you think this is a step forward?

Yes, I do.

One thing is changing priorities in different phases of the game. A very different thing is changing priorities every time a new player is in charge of the save.

Ok, let's try some hair raising diplomacy ( I love that stuff).
We start with gifting lit to JC. We bribe him on (?) HC or Toku. We buy math from Alex :eek:. Should be well in our allowance for WE trading.
Then we convert to Hindu. No problem with KK and Fred, we have enough points with them. JC should also be Ok, at least after we got a few shared war points.
We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.
Then we gift enough to Liz that she's pleased. She will not dog pile us at pleased.
Most of the continent is at war and we are hated only by the weakest civs :D.

I think I've been maximally clear with my reasoning: We need to grow to pop11 asap so we can have hammers, GPP, and research (= 2 cottages) all at once.That's the fat cross Gyathaar blessed us with.

0. klarius is getting the GS asap so we can build our Academy, if we want it (and, imo, so we can re-assign the scientist to production).
1. To grow to pop11 fastest, we need a theatre for the 2:)/10%:culture: (plus theatre also increases our chances of taking the silver).
2. To grow faster while working either sicentists or stones (-4:food:), we need lh asap.
3. We can build the lh right now and finish it before we need the theatre, because we won't need the theatre till pop9, which is in ~9t.

This is a very confusing post. Let me translate it into British English:
- The most important thing is growth
- As lh gives additional growth, the most important thing now is hammers
- The most important thing is GPP, so we can have our pop out of the library for growth.
- These sentences are in no contradiction with one another. :crazyeye:


When you sacrifice a scientist in order to work food and grow a turn sooner, you are in fact exchanging the scientist output and 2 food (required to feed the new citizen 1 turn) in exchange for the food tile output and the new citizen output.

What's the value of the new tile we are going to get when we grow from pop 9 to pop10? 0food-4hammers-3commerce. What is the value of the food tile we have to use to grow sooner? 2food-3commerce.
What is the value of the scientist turn we are sacrificing? It is 1200bpt for 200GPP, or 18bpt a turn, plus 3 for the direct output. Discounting the effect of the library, it is equivalent to 16commerce per turn.

So 2f+4h+6c-2f-16c--> Accelerating growth get us 4 hammers at the expense of 10 commerce. Is that what we want?

Ok, let's try some hair raising diplomacy ( I love that stuff).
We start with gifting lit to JC. We bribe him on (?) HC or Toku. We buy math from Alex :eek:. Should be well in our allowance for WE trading.
Then we convert to Hindu. No problem with KK and Fred, we have enough points with them. JC should also be Ok, at least after we got a few shared war points.
We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.
Then we gift enough to Liz that she's pleased. She will not dog pile us at pleased.
Most of the continent is at war and we are hated only by the weakest civs :D.

Our plans should include a "what if HC gets peace with KK", shouldn't they?

The other 2 important things are covered in your plan:
- We won't get a surprising dow
- We will get shared war turns with Fred (just in case KK fails to be our partner).

Our plans should include a "what if HC gets peace with KK", shouldn't they?


Well, that's the problem with KK anyway as I have stated many posts ago.
We will then either have to wait 10 turns until we can bribe him again against HC, or bite the bullet and declare on somebody else he will go for at that time and get more permanent negative points.

Well, that's the problem with KK anyway as I have stated many posts ago.
We will then either have to wait 10 turns until we can bribe him again against HC, or bite the bullet and declare on somebody else he will go for at that time and get more permanent negative points.

Toku won't do, will he? Away from the save, but I imagine they are both warmongers friends.

EDIT: If we are going to declare hindu for Pacifism, then dowing a budist doesn't mind.

This is a very confusing post. Let me translate it into British English:
- The most important thing is growth
- As lh gives additional growth, the most important thing now is hammers
- The most important thing is GPP, so we can have our pop out of the library for growth.
- These sentences are in no contradiction with one another. :crazyeye:

If you're messing with me, thanks, mate. ;) If you're serious, then my apologies for again being confusing. What you're not getting is the sequential nature of what I'm talking about. We can only build one thing at a time in our OCC. We can only assign 6 citizens when we're at pop6, etc. Furthermore, we have a balance of hammers, food and commerce to manipulate, thanks to Sid Meier. So what I'm talking about is balancing those to optimize the production of two buildings that contribute to having pop11, while growing to pop11 and while using our various resource tiles. Now if you're suggesting a more optimum path to all that, I'm all for it. If you're saying we don't want pop11, then I disagree.

When you sacrifice a scientist in order to work food and grow a turn sooner, you are in fact exchanging the scientist output and 2 food (required to feed the new citizen 1 turn) in exchange for the food tile output and the new citizen output. That's an interesting idea, but it's not true as far as I can tell. The 2 food don't come in till next turn. (If you talking about our food supply in general, we've got a surplus anyway.) The only exchange is what you gain from the worked tile and what you lose from the scientist. And in terms of the ensuing GP, you only lose that turn if you use it the same turn it is created later on.

What's the value of the new tile we are going to get when we grow from pop 9 to pop10? 0food-4hammers-3commerce. What is the value of the food tile we have to use to grow sooner? 2food-3commerce.
What is the value of the scientist turn we are sacrificing? It is 1200bpt for 200GPP, or 18bpt a turn, plus 3 for the direct output. Discounting the effect of the library, it is equivalent to 16commerce per turn. Not necessarily. First of all, your 1200bpt/200GPP thingamabob (if you get that from bulbing?) only works if you are planning 1) to bulb the GS and 2) bulb it as soon as you can. If we bulb Philo with GS #1, then I can see the hurry to get GS#2 to build the Academy (but what is its value lost when delayed?). Otherwise, we're absolutely no hurry to get our Educ GS right now, so we're not losing any of the bpt you're talking about other than the 3 for that turn. To the contrary, we're actually wasting the hammers or whatever.

So 2f+4h+6c-2f-16c--> Accelerating growth get us 4 hammers at the expense of 10 commerce. Is that what we want? jesusin, if you're going to complicate things that much, then please don't leave out the other umpteen factors we need to consider. ;)

Let me simplify what I'm trying to say, but in your terms.

Big Picture
1. We want to win asap. (No. 1 most important factor.) Winning asap means the later of Turn X and Turn Y, where:
a. Getting a PA = Turn X.
b. Having our PA-partnership reach the domination limit = Turn Y.

Nitty Gritty (Itemized so you can agree/disagree with me, point by point.)
2. We have 7 resource tiles, 2 cottages, and 2 scientists we would like to run, at the very least. (Yes, sometimes, we might run 5 sci after Oxford, etc.)
3. We need pop11 to run all those at the same time. (If we don't run them all at the same time, we're leaving something out, :hammers:, :gpp:, or :science:, right? More is better, right?)
4. Now I'll list a number of factors that I thnk we need to consider, even now, when deciding what's the optimum path to pop11:
A) We only need X GS's
B) We need GS #2 by T??
C) We need GS #3 by T??
D) We need GS #4 by T??, etc.
E) We need to get to CS asap for Bureaucracy.
F) We need to have the techs necessary to continue bribing DoWs.
G) We need to keep from trading techs to Asoka (and maybe others) so we can trade for Construction, Monarchy, MC, Machinery, Optics.
H) We need to complete all necessary builds in a timely fashion.
I) We need to grow our cottages.
J) We need to build cats, and other units to speed up the conquest of our ally.
K) We want to get Mace Wars started asap.

As you can see, these factors involve hammers, food, beakers, GPP, and commerce, among other things. Now, jesusin, please feel free to suggest the optimum path to pop11 (or whatever pop you prefer). My only goal is team success. I could care less who figures out the optimum path.

Toku won't do, will he? Away from the save, but I imagine they are both warmongers friends.

EDIT: If we are going to declare hindu for Pacifism, then dowing a budist doesn't mind.
I'm not saying we necessarily do Hindu for pacifism, but do it anyway for happiness and good relations with our neighbors (friendly with Asoka should come pretty quick, so WFYABTA loses it's big threat). We have collected enough points with KK and Freddy that the different religion will not drive them below pleased. And even JC should be Ok, if he stays at war for some time. All three are no big carers about different religion. (KK=-1, JC and Fred=-2 worst).

My newest finding (mentioned in the turn log) is that KK will even declare at pleased, so Toku is an option. I just don't know if we can afford it when the time comes (philo would do, but nothing less we'll have soon). Pleased costs double as much as annoyed. He is pleased (friendly with Alex) with all Buds and Toku.
So the target would have to be a Hindu. That's HC with waiting, or we declare on one of our neighbors (George is the least useful) :eek:, collect a -1 with Asoka, Liz and Fred (who likes George despite different religion) and then better have also some units to defend ourselves.

:goodjob:Ok, let's try some hair raising diplomacy ( I love that stuff).
We start with gifting lit to JC. We bribe him on (?) HC or Toku. We buy math from Alex :eek:. Should be well in our allowance for WE trading.
Then we convert to Hindu. No problem with KK and Fred, we have enough points with them. JC should also be Ok, at least after we got a few shared war points.
We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.
Then we gift enough to Liz that she's pleased. She will not dog pile us at pleased.
Most of the continent is at war and we are hated only by the weakest civs :D.

Excellent. This was along the lines of what I was thinking, except that I didn't have to open the save to check what was possible or ask klarius for any trading allowance calcs, since he did them already :goodjob:

As noted a few posts earlier, it doesn't address the KK potential peace problem, but then there really isn't anything to address this right now - but maybe if he goes quiet we can gift lit/drama and then bribe him with CS in a bit.

Assuming this all works and we get everybody back at war (for now) without needing Philo, can we all agree that we should use the GS on an academy and then consider using the 2nd GS to bulb philo if we need it for trade bait (assuming we've not opened paper by then - will we?) That way we don't have to take a religion/switch civics and use 2 turns of anarchy.

:goodjob:

Assuming this all works and we get everybody back at war (for now) without needing Philo, can we all agree that we should use the GS on an academy and then consider using the 2nd GS to bulb philo if we need it for trade bait (assuming we've not opened paper by then - will we?) That way we don't have to take a religion/switch civics and use 2 turns of anarchy.
Well, it's not that easy.
We need to give out drama, so that means others can bulb philo also. On the other continent CoL is known since some time, they can bulb or even research philo.
Also we don't want (look at LC's arguments to grow, which I also want) to use max scientists currently, so the 2nd GS is probably much too late.
I could consent to a short phase of max scientists (2 turn anarchy, 8 turns many scientists - we still could grow first to 8), with pacifism, but not really to stunt growth now for 15 turns to get a second scientist that then probably sits around until education.

By my estimates:

With Academy
CS bee-line T91
Construction bee-line T73

With Philo bulb
CS bee-line T95 (including 2-turn revolt)

Educ GS comes in time in all scenarios.

EDIT: These estimates are based on NOT sacrificing production (as klarius mentions a few posts forward) and working basically the same citizens in both scenarios, population permitting.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

EDIT2: Going forward, any calculations I make, any posts I make, assume that we will balance hammers with research unless I note otherwise. I am not going to waste my time figuring out the fastest way to Communism, because I firmly believe that fastest solution is cats asap (i.e., bee-line Construction). I leave fastest-to-Communism calculations to someone else.

I'm not convinced about the Academy until I see the figures :lol:

One turn pacifism = +8 GPP, one turn Academy = +15 beakers?

EDIT: crosspost with LC

I would appreciate if each of you to give a rough plan of the next couple of turn sets so I can present a PPP that fits the long term plan. Else I'll start on my own, and you all have to convince me to change the PPP :lol:

I'm not convinced about the Academy until I see the figures :lol:

One turn pacifism = +8 GPP, one turn Academy = +15 beakers?

EDIT: crosspost with LCHere's how I calced it, so you all can find my mistakes.

Research % for tech with library and 20% bonus: 145
Research % with Academy: 195

W/Academy is 195/145 faster = 1.345
I figured we have ~34t (may be less) to CS right now, so with Acad = 34/1.345 = 26t = T91

I figured that GS#1(Philo>GS#2(for Acad) will take 2t revolt + 8t = 10t.
So that's 34t - 8t(w/o Academy) = 26t/1.345 = 20t Total = 2t revolt + 8t + 20t = 30t = T95

I'm not convinced about the Academy until I see the figures :lol:

One turn pacifism = +8 GPP, one turn Academy = +15 beakers?

EDIT: crosspost with LC

I would appreciate if each of you to give a rough plan of the next couple of turn sets so I can present a PPP that fits the long term plan. Else I'll start on my own, and you all have to convince me to change the PPP :lol:
The figures will not tell the whole truth anyway, with a lot unpredictable.
Philo will for sure come out ahead to communism. There is always the possibility to squeeze out just one more GS for PP or SM. Even at CS we are ahead philo, which we may or may not have needed for trade. Our total beakers are for sure better at that point.
OTOH, we lose quite a bit production in the meantime. Unit building will be further delayed.

Here's how I calced it, so you all can find my mistakes.

Research % for tech with library and 20% bonus: 145
Research % with Academy: 195

W/Academy is 195/145 faster = 1.345
I figured we have ~34t (may be less) to CS right now, so with Acad = 34/1.345 = 26t = T91

I figured that GS#1(Philo>GS#2(for Acad) will take 2t revolt + 8t = 10t.
So that's 34t - 8t(w/o Academy) = 26t/1.345 = 20t Total = 2t revolt + 8t + 20t = 30t = T95
The 20% bonus is not added but multiplied so it's 210/150 = 1.4 (though there is also the 1 beaker influenced by neither lib nor academy :lol:).
You shouldn't penalize philo by 2 turns of anarchy.
I at least want Hindu independent of pacifism.

The 20% bonus is not added but multiplied so it's 210/150 = 1.4 (though there is also the 1 beaker influenced by neither lib nor academy :lol:).
You shouldn't penalize philo by 2 turns of anarchy.
I at least want Hindu independent of pacifism.I was wondering about when that 20% gets multiplied. Okay, it's still the same. And yes, if we're going to do the HInduism thing, then the Philo bulb starts to look like a no-brainer...unless...we decide to bee-line Construction... (of course, we could bulb Philo and still bee-line COnstruction :lol:).

The figures will not tell the whole truth anyway, with a lot unpredictable.
Philo will for sure come out ahead to communism. There is always the possibility to squeeze out just one more GS for PP or SM. Even at CS we are ahead philo, which we may or may not have needed for trade. Our total beakers are for sure better at that point.
OTOH, we lose quite a bit production in the meantime. Unit building will be further delayed.

klarius I'm not sure I understand the middle bit. What do you mean at CS we are ahead philo and our total beakers are better?

In general, you're saying we'll tech to comm faster if we bulb philo now, but we won't make as many hammers between now and when we pop the 2nd GS for academy? Is that right?

If we do this now, will we need to run pacifism throughout? I'm thinking about once we actually have an army - maintenance is more under pacifism.

klarius I'm not sure I understand the middle bit. What do you mean at CS we are ahead philo and our total beakers are better?

In general, you're saying we'll tech to comm faster if we bulb philo now, but we won't make as many hammers between now and when we pop the 2nd GS for academy? Is that right?

If we do this now, will we need to run pacifism throughout? I'm thinking about once we actually have an army - maintenance is more under pacifism.
Obviously we have philo at CS if we LB it now, which we won't have otherwise. That's more beakers than 3-4 turns research at that time. And the GS we used comes for free thanks to pacifism (we need less scientist turns for 4 GS total than for 3 w/o pacifism).
So we are ahead in science.

We need to use scientists now in a critical phase for growth which either hampers our production directly (if we worked high hammer tiles) or indirect via less growth. So we come out with less hammers. Without LB'ing philo I wouldn't use any scientists now, but grow to be able to work all the good tiles (grow can mean working more hammers - less food to get the LH faster, even if jesusin sees a contradiction in that).
But it's not that bad :). We can chop for the lighthouse now, which means we can complete it, grow and still have the second GS in 10 turns from now, while growing further (a bit slower, but still).

I never had problems in test games to trade for quite a bit cash after currency is afloat. The little bit military unit maintenance in pacifism shouldn't be a problem. We should go out of pacifism only after our last GS is generated whichever # that is.

OK, I've thought about this for a while. Everything klarius is saying seems to make sense. Philo is good. We still get the academy without much impact to CS. We grow. We have a bunch of good wars going on. We're hindu so we won't get DOW'd by our neighbors.

This would be my PPP for the next few turnsets, as requested by our captain:

Bulb Philo
Make the trades/DOW's/bribes as suggested by klarius
Adopt Pacifism+Hindu
Max sci's and food until 2nd GS (academy), then hammers and food until we're at 11.
Keep checking for Fred to have dyes. Trade.
Chop out the lh, switch to theatre, then start Globe (don't finish yet) at CS, finish barracks and build 5 cats. Slot in monastery, harbor, forge. Finish Globe after the 3rd GS pops (I want 100% chance on this as it means faster Oxford)
Run 10% culture when needed.
Connect the sheep. Trade for incense when the gift expires. If health becomes a problem, connect the stone and switch out the deer trade. Try to get clams/fish. Hook up the iron. Chop the barracks and cats.
Research ph-col-cs-paper-edu (LC we're trading for const by CS, don't worry)
Prioritize trade for HR (if before CS for free civic switch), const (happy LC? ;)) compass, MC, currency. But don't trade philo if at all possible - save for a needed bribe or for machinery. Let them have CS when we can get all the priority techs and the diplo situation is ok - I think we need them to get to optics faster than their current pace and Asoka might get distracted with DivRight and other junk.
Try to get Fred or KK to take cities. Figure out which one we want to actually partner with by Liberalism.

OK, I've thought about this for a while. Everything klarius is saying seems to make sense. Philo is good. We still get the academy without much impact to CS. We grow. We have a bunch of good wars going on. We're hindu so we won't get DOW'd by our neighbors.

This would be my PPP for the next few turnsets, as requested by our captain:

Bulb Philo
Make the trades/DOW's/bribes as suggested by klarius
Adopt Pacifism+Hindu
Max sci's and food until 2nd GS (academy), then hammers and food until we're at 11.
Keep checking for Fred to have dyes. Trade.
Chop out the lh, switch to theatre, then start Globe (don't finish yet) at CS, finish barracks and build 5 cats. Slot in monastery, harbor, forge. Finish Globe after the 3rd GS pops (I want 100% chance on this as it means faster Oxford)
Run 10% culture when needed.
Connect the sheep. Trade for incense when the gift expires. If health becomes a problem, connect the stone and switch out the deer trade. Try to get clams/fish. Hook up the iron. Chop the barracks and cats.
Research ph-col-cs-paper-edu (LC we're trading for const by CS, don't worry)
Prioritize trade for HR (if before CS for free civic switch), const (happy LC? ;)) compass, MC, currency. But don't trade philo if at all possible - save for a needed bribe or for machinery. Let them have CS when we can get all the priority techs and the diplo situation is ok - I think we need them to get to optics faster than their current pace and Asoka might get distracted with DivRight and other junk.
Try to get Fred or KK to take cities. Figure out which one we want to actually partner with by Liberalism.
All fine - except:
Do trades first - you need math to lightbulb philo :p.
I wouldn't go for globe, but finally get some units (axes or swords) going. Currently HC has no OB with George, but that can change. A stray couple of archers could get us in trouble. Also later we don't want to send out cats alone, I think. There is anyway always a point in a siege where swords do better than cats.
I'm not sure about priority for any tech. This will all come over time.

Great play, klarius! I am especially happy with the spread of Hinduism. :goodjob:

No further analysis from me today, too intoxicated...:beer:

We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.I think this is excellent if it means we get Asoka to research Construction in the near future. At the same time, we need to somehow keep whatever techs possible, available to trade to Asoka, because he might be the only one willing to trade us Construction (or Monarchy) early on.
Chop the barracks and cats.

But don't trade philo if at all possible - save for a needed bribe or for machinery.

Figure out which one we want to actually partner with by Liberalism.Maybe 1 chop for lh, like klarius said. I'd minimize our chops becuase we don't have enough :health: for pop11 as it is, and we still want our half-priced forge. Save the chops for Oxford when we'll have more :health:.

____________________________________________

The next two go beyond Erkon's turnset, but:

I wouldn't trade Philo at all. Bulbing it now allows us to go slower to Liberalism if we so choose and we don't have to worry about some AI sneaking in the back door on us.

We need to decide on our partner way sooner than Liberalism. Like by the time we crank out 5 cats at the very latest.

No further analysis from me today, too intoxicated...:beer:Hey, Gnejs, enjoy!!!

Oh, and btw, while you're partying, just remember this: 20 turns from now, when you start your turnset, you're not going to be using catapults to help capture cities, no no. You're going to be building them for me. :p:p:p

Hey, Gnejs, enjoy!!!

Oh, and btw, while you're partying, just remember this: 20 turns from now, when you start your turnset, you're not going to be using catapults to help capture cities, no no. You're going to be building them for me. :p:p:p

Whatever <hic>.

Am I too thick this days? Maybe. Let's hear what my confused mind tells me:

Academy with the second GS is just nonsense. You get the same beakers with a bulbed GS, no matter when you do it or what tech you are after. However, the sooner you get the Academy, the bigger its effect is.

The sentence above holds true unless you get a direct use of the tech you bulb. We are not going to trade Philo away. But we could use Pacifism. Oh, I've found were my problem is. I don't want to declare a religion. KK and Fred are on the brink of stopping being Pleased, cause they are forgetting our gifts. I think we can't afford a -1 now. There's another -1 with KK when he declares peace.

jesusin, if you're going to complicate things that much, then please don't leave out the other umpteen factors we need to consider. ;)


It's Sid who complicated it, not me! ;)

Thank you for your clarifying post.

My goal is also to find the optimum path to victory. I don't care who is the one who finds the brilliant idea, either. Now, if I can insert a little pun in between the arguments...:mischief:

Think again about the food tile and the -2food. We are comparing not a single turn, but the whole game. We can grow now or next turn. The only difference is not the tiles changed this turn (before pop growth), but the city output next turn, when we have one more pop if we choose to grow now, or we don't have it if we prefer the scientist.

Regarding the value of a scientist getting a GS which will be bulbed: this is not so crystal clear. We can maybe bulb 3GS on our way to comm. Maybe 4. Maybe 2. Since I don't know which techs we will be able to trade for, I don't really know the total number of turns till Comm, so I don't know the exact number of accumulated GPP.
In order to get a rough idea, I transform the value of a bulbed GS (1200bpt aprox in a single event) into a continuous value (some 18bpt a turn). Of course this is not real, as you say it is 0 or is it 1200, no values in between. But it is useful as a general idea: every time a scientist is hired, the probability to get those additional 1200bpt coming from the next GS increases.

On my post my alternative plan wasn't as clear as I thought (my English is almost as bad as yours, isn't it? :lol:). My alternative plan is keeping 2 sci at the library. Never sacrificing a 4-food tile, but happily sacrificing 0-food tiles, no matter how many hammers lost. Changing from quarries to library doesn't lose us any direct growth.

Depending on the number of hammers lost and the numbers of beakers won, I might be convinced that hammers are better.

If we adopt Pacifism, nothing will convince me to take a scientist out of the library.

Am I too thick this days? Maybe. Let's hear what my confused mind tells me:

Academy with the second GS is just nonsense. You get the same beakers with a bulbed GS, no matter when you do it or what tech you are after. However, the sooner you get the Academy, the bigger its effect is.

The sentence above holds true unless you get a direct use of the tech you bulb. We are not going to trade Philo away. But we could use Pacifism. Oh, I've found were my problem is. I don't want to declare a religion. KK and Fred are on the brink of stopping being Pleased, cause they are forgetting our gifts. I think we can't afford a -1 now. There's another -1 with KK when he declares peace.

Yes. And using Pacifism mitigates the delay in the academy because we get the 2nd GS faster.

We have more gifts to give them now - drama and literature. Plus as long as KK stays at war w HC we don't need him to be Pleased now anyway. Taking hindu gives is +1 :) AND will get us pleased with Wash Liz and Friendly with Asoka so we a) don't get DOW'd and b) can trade for all the nice techs coming up soon.

klarius can you possibly explain why KK/HC haven't made peace? Does HC not have enough to bribe? Is Tiwanuku a factor? In other words, is it likely KK stays at war for a while? Maybe that will address jesusin's concern.

Reason: improving my English writing before LC has a chance to mock me!!!I'm happy for you if you are happy to improve your English. I really hope your joking about the mocking part. My personal No. 1 Rule at CFC is to not mock anyone's English. I'm thankful and have great admiration for all non-native speakers who have the courage and fluency to write in English. I only wish I could communicate with you in Spanish.

-----------------

I have an idea: Think Warmonger. (I'm serious. For example, when I think, foment a war, klarius thinks foment WORLD WAR. That's thinking Warmonger. ;)) When I think about research and about whether we want an Academy and how many GSes, it's all about 1) how fast can we get to cats CS/Bureaucracy, 2) how can we make sure we get our Educ GS in time, 3) maybe get a PP GS in time, 4) get our SciMeth in time, 5) not miss out on the Lib slingshot, and 6) working any cottages we decide we need.

Is this different than how you are approaching your analysis? I think it is slightly. In the following way: I want to achieve the above research activities with minimal energy so I could put maximal energy into: 1) Getting a unit up to 10XP asap, 2) getting a ever-growing stack of cats (with axe, etc., defenders) out on the warpath asap, 3) making our OCC maximally productive, including poppies, happies, healthies, and hammerese, 4) greasing our bribe machine, etc. Now I know you are thinking along the same lines, so the difference has to be subtle. My view is that losing some of the 1200bpt is okay if it means the cats roll 1t sooner.

Bottom line: In our tests, domination came 59t after PA!!! at the earliest. (Here, you're supposed to think to yourself: That's pathetically slow.) In my tests, cats/cannons were the most important factor that got ~10t off my fastest finish. Gnejs will say he wants our partner to have 6 cities by PA (= an important factor). I agree and cats are the only way we can control that destiny with relative certainty.

Btw, the second most important factor was railroads, but I'm strategizing with the aim of winning before we even get that far.

Ok I can support going lh-theatre-barracks-axes(2?). I'm proposing we skip globe to balance the hammers needed for axes/cats. But will :) become a problem? Not after comm - we can use the slider since we don't need research :eek: if we're going to win right after the PA (i.e. before we need grenadiers and RR and infantry or artillery). But before comm maybe?

Which leads me to this: Do we need Oxford? :eek: :eek: Think about it. It won't be up (much) before Lib. Astro is free. If we have HE by then, that's a lot of cats. 1 GS for PP. 1 GS for sci meth (definitely will be popped by then, since we're delaying research). Yeah comm will take about 30 turns, but does that matter? It's all about what LC said - you need both PA (tech) and cities (units) to win. If you think about these as being graphed against time, you want to optimize their intersection. I'm thinking LC is right that slowing the research curve will sharpen the units curve and optimize the intersection.

The only way we have to do this is to not build research buildings and build units instead. But is it too much?

And of course, if we can't dom with cats then we need Oxford. But if we can...

On why I have been bugging you about Construction and how klarius is a genius

Buckle your seatbelts, guyz. I hope you're ready for this.

In my tests, Construction was available for trade just before CS. That's agonizingly late. ~15 turns late compared to researching it ourselves. At 5t per captured city, that's 3 captured cities late. That's why I've been bugging you about self-researching Construction. Enter klarius. (I'm guessing he's already thinking this, but keeping his mouth shut... ;))

We now have 7 of 10 AIs who have recently finished Math, opening up Calendar, Currency, and Construction in the Tech Tree. We want them to prioritize Construction, but they won't, will they, the schmucks. So let's send them all to war so they get the prioritize-Construction bonus, and see if we can't change their priorities so they'll research Construction sooner than later. I like it. Let's hope we're convincing enough.

kudos to klarius, as usual. :goodjob:


EDIT: The catch is trading for it. CoL and Construction have the same beaker cost. It would be nice if we could hold onto Lite so we could afford Construction when we get to CoL.

Let me throw this crazy thing out too:

Skip education :eek:, research/trade MC, build forge (more cats for LC) - trade paper/philo for compass, machinery, optics. Find Mansa, gift paper and philo. Research astro. Trade astro+whatever to Mansa for edu. Research/bulb PP. Research/bulb sci meth. Trade sci meth to Mansa for Lib. Research comm.

Cost is MC(maybe)+Astro. Savings is Edu+Lib. Might be to aggressive though. Thoughts?

Oh, I've found were my problem is. I don't want to declare a religion. KK and Fred are on the brink of stopping being Pleased, cause they are forgetting our gifts. I think we can't afford a -1 now. There's another -1 with KK when he declares peace.

Fred is @ +8 including 4 gift. KK +6 with 3 gift.
Both have still a point for OB to come. I don't see them anytime soon fall below pleased. An we will gift more as we always have to give some excess value in trades.

I'm not adamant about taking philo. I never did it in my test games and it always worked out fine. There are still some points in favor of academy, namely production and culture.
But I am adamant about revolt to Hindu right away (after bribing JC). Building shared religion points takes a long time and having Asoka friendly is a big plus for our trading.

Let me throw this crazy thing out too:

Skip education :eek:, research/trade MC, build forge (more cats for LC) - trade paper/philo for compass, machinery, optics. Find Mansa, gift paper and philo. Research astro. Trade astro+whatever to Mansa for edu. Research/bulb PP. Research/bulb sci meth. Trade sci meth to Mansa for Lib. Research comm.

Cost is MC(maybe)+Astro. Savings is Edu+Lib. Might be to aggressive though. Thoughts?Sounds interesting and we wouldn't necessarily have to decide before CS anyway, but this has triggered another possibility in my mind: We could research MC now. With it we could afford Constuction, Currency, and Calendar (if we want it), and we might even get CoL. If not CoL, it would be 20% cheaper with Currency. We get teh forge sooner, of course, but the big factor for me:

We get AIs researching Machinery sooner. MC does not have the priority-bonus, but Machinery does. So we remove the MC obstacle.

Let me throw this crazy thing out too:

Skip education :eek:, research/trade MC, build forge (more cats for LC) - trade paper/philo for compass, machinery, optics. Find Mansa, gift paper and philo. Research astro. Trade astro+whatever to Mansa for edu. Research/bulb PP. Research/bulb sci meth. Trade sci meth to Mansa for Lib. Research comm.

Cost is MC(maybe)+Astro. Savings is Edu+Lib. Might be to aggressive though. Thoughts?
Relying on the AI for edu is asking a lot. Mansa may be dead by then or not researching edu for a long time.
I'm also not sure if we can trade up to optics w/o education. Philosophy is not good forever. I had test games where several AI researched it, before I traded for machinery.

Relying on the AI for edu is asking a lot. Mansa may be dead by then or not researching edu for a long time.
I'm also not sure if we can trade up to optics w/o education. Philosophy is not good forever. I had test games where several AI researched it, before I traded for machinery.

I've done it before. Paper and a couple hundred gold should be enough for optics. Plus we don't have to break philo until we think or know Optics will be available on the next turn. But yeah it is definitely a stretch, and you're right we don't know how advanced Mansa will be.

Depending on the number of hammers lost and the numbers of beakers won, I might be convinced that hammers are better.

If we adopt Pacifism, nothing will convince me to take a scientist out of the library.
LC (and I) want both the hammer tiles and 2 scientists at the same time (so no decision between hammers and beakers). We have enough food for that, but have to grow to the magic 11 first.

If we adopt pacifism now, the important point is to generate the next GS fast for academy. That's 8 turns but no need for 2 scientists all the time.
After that we don't have a need for more GS for a long time. So slowing the further GSs by 1 or 2 turns is worth being faster to the pop where we can have both production and beakers, IMO. I'm even considering going to pacifism and slow the academy by another turn to get the pop up faster.

Just another crazy idea:

Ignore the common OCC lore. Don't go to CS, but bee-line astronomy with GS bulbs (research MC, trade compass and calendar, LB machinery (LC probably loves that part :lol:), research optics, LB astronomy).
Trade for CS and everything else missing now with astronomy. Research paper (probably not researched by now) and decide if there is a chance to get sci method with liberalism (we don't have to give out paper or education).

LC (and I) want both the hammer tiles and 2 scientists at the same time (so no decision between hammers and beakers). We have enough food for that, but have to grow to the magic 11 first.Of course, pop11 was in honor of jesusin and his 2 cottages, but who needs cottages anyway? :mischief::mischief::mischief: pop9 is plenty for the resource tiles and 2 sci. :cool:

EDIT: :joke:

Of course, pop11 was in honor of jesusin and his 2 cottages, but who needs cottages anyway? :mischief::mischief::mischief: pop9 is plenty for the resource tiles and 2 sci. :cool:
Well, the cottages will be worked. There are some severe cottage lovers in the team. And OK, it makes sense once we have the population :).

Just another crazy idea:

Ignore the common OCC lore. Don't go to CS, but bee-line astronomy with GS bulbs (research MC, trade compass and calendar, LB machinery (LC probably loves that part :lol:), research optics, LB astronomy).
Trade for CS and everything else missing now with astronomy. Research paper (probably not researched by now) and decide if there is a chance to get sci method with liberalism (we don't have to give out paper or education).

This is definitely safer in terms of being able to acquire the techs than my crazy idea, but I don't think the other continent, with more cities/civ and Mansa will cooperate and research that slow. Let's test it - following the above path, what year do you reckon we would be able to finish Lib?

And isn't the best part about CS the :hammers:? That's a lot less cats for Gnejs to build for LC ;) if we delay CS that long.

Okay, what I don't like about all three crazy ideas is that each is optimal only if AIs research something that isn't necessarily realistic so soon (LC-->CoL, FiveAces-->Education(I guess), klarius-->Compass). So getting back to reality:

klarius, in your plan for World War, do think it would be feasible to keep Lite from everyone but JC? I'd like to save Lite to trade with Asoka or someone for Construction. For example:
JC -- Lite for Pleased, Drama for DoW Toku
Alex -- Drama for Math
Asoka, Fred -- Drama for DoW Toku
Liz -- Drama for Pleased
or at most, keep Lite from everyone but JC and Fred:
JC -- Lite for Pleased, Drama for DoW Toku
Alex -- Drama for Math
Asoka -- Drama for DoW Toku
Fred -- Drama + Lite for DoW Toku
Liz -- Drama for PleasedNote: I don't like JC DoW HC, because I think we might be able to keep JC at Pleased with KK for a reverse DoW (JC DoWs KK so we can help KK kill jC). KK will probably become Friendly with JC and won't DoW.

EDIT: Yes, I realize the reverse DoW would be really expensive, because we wouldn't want to DoW KK ourselves. I'm thinking this would only happen if our warring was so successful that we needed to have KK go down on JC before PA. By then, we should have enough of a tech advantage to afford the reverse DoW, I'm assuming.

Okay, what I don't like about all three crazy ideas is that each is optimal only if AIs research something that isn't necessarily realistic so soon (LC-->CoL, FiveAces-->Education(I guess), klarius-->Compass). So getting back to reality:

klarius, in your plan for World War, do think it would be feasible to keep Lite from everyone but JC? I'd like to save Lite to trade with Asoka or someone for Construction. For example:JC -- Lite for Pleased, Drama for DoW Toku
Alex -- Drama for Math
Asoka, Fred -- Drama for DoW Toku
Liz -- Drama for Pleasedor at most, Lite from everyone but JC and Fred:JC -- Lite for Pleased, Drama for DoW Toku
Alex -- Drama for Math
Asoka -- Drama for DoW Toku
Fred -- Drama + Lite for DoW Toku
Liz -- Drama for PleasedNote: I don't like JC DoW HC, because I think we might be able to keep JC at Pleased with KK for a reverse DoW (JC DoWs KK so we can help KK kill jC). KK will probably become Friendly with JC and won't DoW.
I don't know if we can keep lit. Sure we should do if we can as CoL-construction will not work either way w/o something on top.

I like JC on HC more for 2 reasons:
If we also set him on Toku, Toku might not survive long enough for any + with him.
If KK makes peace with HC (pretty likely), HC has no war anymore. I don't like to make peace with HC, but when he floods us with archers we might have to.

Well, looks like it depends on if and when KK makes peace. Can be next turn, can be never :crazyeye:.

Minor point in favor of bulbing philo that hasn't been pointed out yet: We can build another monastery for +10%:science: through sci meth and +2:culture: to get the silver faster.

Just found something out in the SDK which can influence our worker actions:
We will keep the gifted resource not only for 10 turns but for 20 turns at least.
And with luck even for ever, as long as we don't ask for another gift and have Asoka still pleased with us.

Just found something out in the SDK which can influence our worker actions:
We will keep the gifted resource not only for 10 turns but for 20 turns at least.
And with luck even for ever, as long as we don't ask for another gift and have Asoka still pleased with us.Very good. I was worried we could lose it during the interturn that he can first cancel it. Is it possible for us to lose it by him canceling and then trading it before we get a crack at it?

Seems like the worker might as well road, though, since he already used a turn getting to that forest.

Very good. I was worried we could lose it during the interturn that he can first cancel it. Is it possible for us to lose it by him canceling and then trading it before we get a crack at it?

Seems like the worker might as well road, though, since he already used a turn getting to that forest.
No, you always get the chance to trade.

Road on the hill is still useful. But the sheep is not that urgent anymore (and there is still hope that Liz roads it, if she ever gets OB with George).
If we decide we urgently need the second cottage :), or another forest chop, we can move this up.

If we also set him on Toku, Toku might not survive long enough for any + with him.

True. But then we need to bribe everybody again and we might not have enough ammo yet.

Minor point in favor of bulbing philo that hasn't been pointed out yet: We can build another monastery for +10%:science: through sci meth and +2:culture: to get the silver faster.Excellent point. With the :) from Hinduism, we won't need the theatre until we grow to pop10, at the earliest. If we get silver and/or Fred's dyes, even later. No point in getting the theatre earlier than needed.

Still, lh first. But that gives us a choice between monastery, barracks, and theatre. This brings us to MM for Erkon's turnset. (Assuming we're going to bulb Philo and revolt to Hinduism and Pacifism.) So, after the 2-turn revolt...

The fastest we can pop GS#2 is 8 turns. We need 12 scientist-turns, minimum to do that. That means we only need to work 1 sci for the first four turns.

We can see that working the cottage gives us +2:food: for a total of +7:food:/t versus working the marble, which gives +4:hammers: for a total of +12:hammers:/t.
Marble: 12/8 = 50% more hammers
Cottage: 7/5 = 40% more food
When the lh is done, the +2:food: gives 9/7= 29% more food.
So, imo, the marble provides the optimum mix. But we can work the cottage for just 1 turn and still grow to pop8 in 3t. So I would do it this way:
T67 wrk 1 sci and the cottage
T68 switch from the cottage to the marble and keep it there.
At pop8, work 2 sci, stay on the marble
At pop9, also work the cottage.That gives us the lh in 4 turns and 48h (or more with some MM) into the monastery or theatre by T75. That leaves 106h to finish those two and the barracks. But at that time, we also produce GS #2, so we are free to quickly grow to pop11 and focus on hammers for a few turns if we want.

If we decide we urgently need the second cottage :), or another forest chop, we can move this up.We could use the cottage around T75-80, but will we? We could mine the river hill to rush our builds around that same time too, but will we use it? I'd like us to be efficient with our worker turns because we also need to connect the stone so we can trade it. We should think about collecting resource trade attitude points with KK.

Hammers for 2 monastaries are better than 2nd cottage IMO.

Excellent point. With the :) from Hinduism, we won't need the theatre until we grow to pop10, at the earliest. If we get silver and/or Fred's dyes, even later. No point in getting the theatre earlier than needed.

Still, lh first. But that gives us a choice between monastery, barracks, and theatre. This brings us to MM for Erkon's turnset. (Assuming we're going to bulb Philo and revolt to Hinduism and Pacifism.) So, after the 2-turn revolt...

The fastest we can pop GS#2 is 8 turns. We need 12 scientist-turns, minimum to do that. That means we only need to work 1 sci for the first four turns.

We can see that working the cottage gives us +2:food: for a total of +7:food:/t versus working the marble, which gives +4:hammers: for a total of +12:hammers:/t.Marble: 12/8 = 50% more hammers
Cottage: 7/5 = 40% more food
When the lh is done, the +2:food: gives 9/7= 29% more food.So, imo, the marble provides the optimum mix. But we can work the cottage for just 1 turn and still grow to pop8 in 3t. So I would do it this way:T67 wrk 1 sci and the cottage
T68 switch from the cottage to the marble and keep it there.
At pop8, work 2 sci, stay on the marble
At pop9, also work the cottage.That gives us the lh in 4 turns and 48h (or more with some MM) into the monastery or theatre by T75. That leaves 106h to finish those two and the barracks. But at that time, we also produce GS #2, so we are free to quickly grow to pop11 and focus on hammers for a few turns if we want.
Well, I thought to work no scientists for 2 turns, instead of 1 for 4. Worker chops now, that allows to finish the lh first turn out of revolt. Then switching to max food we can be size 8 the turn after.

Still, I want us to get units under way not monasteries. Currently the 10% are really not much.
OTOH HC can get OB with Washington any turn. And even if we set JC on him, HC cannot reach any of his enemies for pillaging. That leaves us. :eek:

Fred is @ +8 including 4 gift. KK +6 with 3 gift.
Both have still a point for OB to come. I don't see them anytime soon fall below pleased. An we will gift more as we always have to give some excess value in trades.

I'm not adamant about taking philo. I never did it in my test games and it always worked out fine. There are still some points in favor of academy, namely production and culture.
But I am adamant about revolt to Hindu right away (after bribing JC). Building shared religion points takes a long time and having Asoka friendly is a big plus for our trading.


Ok.

One detail, though: revolting to hindu will cost us 2 turns, not 1. Why? Because if we end up with KK as a partner, we will have to eventually revolt out of hindu.

I'm happy for you if you are happy to improve your English. I really hope your joking about the mocking part. My personal No. 1 Rule at CFC is to not mock anyone's English. I'm thankful and have great admiration for all non-native speakers who have the courage and fluency to write in English. I only wish I could communicate with you in Spanish.

-----------------


Thank you. I am always happy to improve my English, it is an important tool.

Yes, I was joking. But now that you brought the subject, listen to this:
I officially grant you permission to mock me to your heart content, either about my English or about anything else.

We have been e-friends for years now. In addition, it will give me more opportunities both to improve my English and to have a good laugh.

Ok.

One detail, though: revolting to hindu will cost us 2 turns, not 1. Why? Because if we end up with KK as a partner, we will have to eventually revolt out of hindu.
Why?
We could convert him to Hindu (would be good anyway to get him targets we are not interested in trading).
Or as KK has HR as favorite civic, we may get to friendly w/o religion (he is giving only -1 for different religion).

Well, I thought to work no scientists for 2 turns, instead of 1 for 4. Worker chops now, that allows to finish the lh first turn out of revolt. Then switching to max food we can be size 8 the turn after.

Still, I want us to get units under way not monasteries. Currently the 10% are really not much.
OTOH HC can get OB with Washington any turn. And even if we set JC on him, HC cannot reach any of his enemies for pillaging. That leaves us. :eek:Sounds good to me. We should finish the barracks first, of course. Once we get to pop11, any of our builds will be pretty fast anyway.

But I really don't think it makes sense to chop more than once till later. With the :health: we have right now, we can work pop11 at 0:food:. An aquaduct costs 100:hammers:, which is about the same as the 4 chops it replaces: +20:hammers: for a truckload of worker-turns. When we have our happiness problems solved, we'll be able to use the sheep and deer, but not now.

Washington has Monarchy since four turns, JC, Asoka, Elizabeth and Isabella can research it. If we also gift Priesthood to Kublai, Alex and Frederick we increase the chances of Monarchy becoming widespread even more.

We might be able to trade for it already by the end of Erkons turnset, so I don't think we should be too concerned with happiness for now.


What bothers me more is the future ally situation. Kublai will be hard pressed to get to declare against anyone but our Hindu neighbours, and even that might change once they all run HR. Freddie we can get to dow on HC and Toku but not anyone else. How are we going to get one of those to up to 6 cities?

Maybe we should reconsider JC or Asoka as PA partners. JC should be easy to get to go to war for us. Asoka might be more difficult (will currently only dow KK and Alex), but that maybe changes with more negative religion modifiers.



For reference:

Attitude to us for DoW:
Friendly: Washington, Liz, Huyana
Pleased: Everybody else except Alex
Cautious: Alex

Attitude to enemy for Dow:
Cautious: KK, JC, Alex, Toku
Annoyed: Everybody else

Attitude for PA:
Not possible: Alex, Toku
Friendly: Everybody else

KK, JC, Alex, Toku, and Izzy will DoW at Pleased according to the xml. Everyone else we konw at Cautious at least.

I don't think we're in a hurry to get to Monarchy. We could switch to HeredRule along with Bureau. Better for AIs to focus on Construction than Monarchy, right now.

KK, JC, Alex, Toku, and Izzy will DoW at Pleased according to the xml. Everyone else we konw at Cautious at least.


Really? This is very different compared to klarius' list...:eek:

In that case I would like to set JC and Izzy on HC, and Freddie + someone else (Alex?) on Toku. If Kublai makes peace with HC we immediately set him onto Toku as well.

I think klarius' list was more about what we could afford. It seems to get more expensive the higher the attitude.

As I recall Izzy has to be Pleased for us to bribe her. Can we do that?

Really? This is very different compared to klarius' list...:eek:

In that case I would like to set JC and Izzy on HC, and Freddie + someone else (Alex?) on Toku. If Kublai makes peace with HC we immediately set him onto Toku as well.
If you mean the stuff some 100 posts ago :lol:, there is a general error in that. I assumed that the threshold would mean deny at equal, as with the other thresholds.
But with this threshold denial comes only at greater values. So all the declarations can be done at one attitude level higher. But that doesn't mean that we can afford a declaration at pleased to a distant target. At least not if we don't want to use philosophy.
Also note that KK will give us a -1 for a declaration on someone he is pleased with even if we can later bribe him.

The attitude towards us has still to have the values I mentioned earlier. Pleased with most. Friendly with Liz and Washington.
We cannot get Liz to pleased currently, even big gifts would not do it.
Ok, let's try some hair raising diplomacy ( I love that stuff).
We start with gifting lit to JC. We bribe him on (?) HC or Toku. We buy math from Alex :eek:. Should be well in our allowance for WE trading.
Then we convert to Hindu. No problem with KK and Fred, we have enough points with them. JC should also be Ok, at least after we got a few shared war points.
We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.
Then we gift enough to Liz that she's pleased. She will not dog pile us at pleased.
Most of the continent is at war and we are hated only by the weakest civs :D.
What I wrote there is feasible and useful. I don't see why we should invest a lot to get Alex on somebody.

I think klarius' list was more about what we could afford. It seems to get more expensive the higher the attitude.

As I recall Izzy has to be Pleased for us to bribe her. Can we do that?

Not if we're hindu.

We could convert him to Hindu (would be good anyway to get him targets we are not interested in trading).
Or as KK has HR as favorite civic, we may get to friendly w/o religion (he is giving only -1 for different religion).

Can we convert him if he holds Madrid?

Got it....

Originally Posted by klarius
Ok, let's try some hair raising diplomacy ( I love that stuff).
We start with gifting lit to JC. We bribe him on (?) HC or Toku. We buy math from Alex . Should be well in our allowance for WE trading.
Then we convert to Hindu. No problem with KK and Fred, we have enough points with them. JC should also be Ok, at least after we got a few shared war points.
We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.
Then we gift enough to Liz that she's pleased. She will not dog pile us at pleased.
Most of the continent is at war and we are hated only by the weakest civs .

What I wrote there is feasible and useful. I don't see why we should invest a lot to get Alex on somebody.

I am fine with this. Having two wars is great, as we can switch Freddie and KK back and forth between them. :)

Not if we're hindu.

Not even with no state as currently. She will need +4 to get pleased and we have -1 currently.
Not right, I didn't watch her attitude closely, as I was anyway not interested.
We could do it, obviously as with JC before we convert. But in contrast to JC the shared war points will not be enough to overcome different religion, so why should we do it at all.


Can we convert him if he holds Madrid?
Yes. It's just a bit more expensive.
But we still need the basics. Half of his cities rounded down or number cities with state religion -1 cities have to be Hindu. That means at 3 cities one Hindu city will do. At 4 cities with 3-4 Bud, it needs 2 Hindu.

How long he will stay in Hindu is another question.

While we are waiting for Erkon's PPP to materialize <hint, hint> we can also discuss what to do with the Tao missionary. I guess it won't have too much influence since everybody but Toku already has a religion. But both Washington and Lizzie have only one Hindu city each according to the last info. So if we spread Tao to one city now, and later follow up with a second missionary (after OR or with a monastery), this might stir up some more trouble.

If we get Washington into a different religion than Asoka and Lizzie we might be able to set up a monumental dogpile on him. :)
My suggestion is then to spread Tao to Washington.


Edit: This is assuming we bulb Philo of course.

While we are waiting for Erkon's PPP to materialize <hint, hint> we can also discuss what to do with the Tao missionary. I guess it won't have too much influence since everybody but Toku already has a religion. But both Washington and Lizzie have only one Hindu city each according to the last info. So if we spread Tao to one city now, and later follow up with a second missionary (after OR or with a monastery), this might stir up some more trouble.

If we get Washington into a different religion than Asoka and Lizzie we might be able to set up a monumental dogpile on him. :)
My suggestion is then to spread Tao to Washington.


Edit: This is assuming we bulb Philo of course.
Well, Tao in Tiwanaku may prevent that it gets Buddha. That could make converting KK easier.

Note, that day in the calendar, people. Gnejs is talking about building missionaries.

Seriously, I think it doesn't help to convert anybody to Tao (and I'm not sure it will work at all - it's just one more city with Tao and they are not spiritual).
The relations between our neighbors will still be pretty good as they like each other naturally and don't care much about different religion.

Let's bulb Philo, revolt to Pacifism and Hinduism, and put the Taoist missionary in Tiwanaku while we can (if he can get there safely...:lol:). The way I see it, if we need another point to get to Friendly right before PA, we may have that in our back pocket. We can also spread of Gnejs' Missionaries in advance, as needed. ;)

I have another problem :crazyeye:.
We can be at size 10 at the end of the next turn set.
Still with GS for academy and 2 turns anarchy. But not a lot hammers.
So my builder self tells me we have to do theater after lighthouse.
Still my warmonger self tells me we need some real units, yesterday.
Maybe another chop (no direct penalty as we have odd forests after the lh chop) could resolve the conflict.

Hi all,

I've been sick last night, but I plan to write the PPP later today. Worker actions, builds and research is pretty straightforward, although I imagine the MM can raise questions. I will suggest revolt to Hinduism and pacifism in my turn set, but the timing also have to be sorted out.

The main uncertainty is the diplomatic activities and potential tech trades/gifts. My wish is for one of our candidate partners to capture a city, and the second priority is to further manipulate the relations for the future.

So my builder self tells me we have to do theater after lighthouse.This is why I was working the marble for more hammers and slower growth, trying to time the completion of the theatre with pop10. An important key is for Erkon to monitor whether Fred finishes Calendar in the next few turns so he can improve his dyes. Dyes would let us postpone the theatre to pop11.

On the forest, when I worldbuild 10 forest tiles in the FC I get +5:health:. When I have 9 forest tiles, it drops to +4:health:. If that's correct, then we can't even afford any more forest chops if we want pop11, unless we use the stone for incense and keep the sheep.

Another (lousy) alternative would be to cottage a non-river grass tile instead of the plains/river tile.

Or we forget about pop11 for now.

...On the forest, when I worldbuild 10 forest tiles in the FC I get +5:health:. When I have 9 forest tiles, it drops to +4:health:. If that's correct, then we can't even afford any more forest chops if we want pop11, unless we use the stone for incense and keep the sheep...

It is correct that 10 forests provide +5:health: and 9 forests provide +4:health: since each forest provides +0.5:health:. Sorry if this was not your question...

It is correct that 10 forests provide +5:health: and 9 forests provide +4:health: since each forest provides +0.5:health:. Sorry if this was not your question...Yes, it was. The problem was I thought it rounded up from .5, but my WB test shows it to round down.

We can still also get our deer back and use marble for gold.

Edit: We should probably do that right away, so we can cancel the deal when we need marble (not in the next 10 turns for sure).
Later the resource situation will shift anyway.

Your WB is correct. Forests are +.5:health: each, rounded down.

We can manipulate our crabs too - if Askoka cancels the incense gift we can trade crabs for it (if he doesn't have any, I forget) and then ask for a gift of crabs from someone - there's enough on the map somebody should have one free. Will buy us at least 10 turns before we have to use the stone.

edit: crosspost

Okay. Let's chop 2 forests. Can we road the hill and sheep and still get the second chop in time?

Okay. Let's chop 2 forests. Can we road the hill and sheep and still get the second chop in time?
In time for what?

In time for what?In time for the theatre and pop10 (I'm thinking in your scenario of focusing on barracks and units but still getting the theatre by pop10).

Mostly, just trying to move the discussion toward some conclusion as opposed to opening up new cans of worms... ;)

We can still also get our deer back and use marble for gold.

Edit: We should probably do that right away, so we can cancel the deal when we need marble (not in the next 10 turns for sure).
Later the resource situation will shift anyway.We could gift our marble to our future partner after he gets Lite... My guess is that both Fred and KK have gotten a 10XP unit by now.

In time for the theatre and pop10 (I'm thinking in your scenario of focusing on barracks and units but still getting the theatre by pop10).

Mostly, just trying to move the discussion toward some conclusion as opposed to opening up new cans of worms... ;)
Chop will not be in time for size 10 if we grow as fast as possible, IIRC. But theatre could complete anyway. Chop could help barracks and then we have really good hammers. But do we have this time ? Or do we have more time and don't need the chop, as that's anyway only 2 turns worth hammers at that time.

OTOH, we could also do w/o fast theater. Silver should get on line and if there is a turn or 2 difference in timing we still can use 20% culture.

We could gift our marble to our future partner after he gets Lite... My guess is that both Fred and KK have gotten a 10XP unit by now.
KK has marble anyway. Fred will be at a new war for the next 10 turns, according to my planning, and by that not build the HE.

There is still another option (new cans of worms). I think JC doesn't have copper :lol:. If we hook up iron, we don't need copper.

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T65-T75 v2.1

Get the GS in this turn set, while grow, grow, grow! Beakers and tile-generated Hammers are of slightly lower importance in this TS. Chop the LH, then connect resources. Improve our city from a long term perspective. Happiness is not an immediate problem since we get +1 from Hinduism. Instigate another war with the aim to get one city captured by a candidate PA-partner. General AI-relation manipulation to reduce love in the world.

BUILD QUEUE
Lighthouse, Barracks
UNIT MOVES
Check around with scout. Avoid the plank. Monitor war progress against Kyoto and Cuzco.
WORKER ACTIONS
Chop in place (T67), road hill and sheep. The chop will enable us to grow quicker.
CITY MM
T65 : anarchy
T66 : anarchy
T67 : F17+7, H16+44, GPP2+16 : Stone + Grassland Forest
T68 : F24+11, H6+8, GPP18+16 : Coast + Cottage (lighthouse complete)
T69 : F18+7, H14+8, GPP34+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage (pop8)
T70 : F25+7, H22+8, GPP62+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T71 : F32+7, H30+8, GPP90+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T72 : F21+7, H38+8, GPP118+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Coast (pop9)
T73 : F28+5, H46+12, GPP146+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Marble
T74 : F33+5, H58+12, GPP174+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Marble
T75 : F19, H10, GPP202 (GS available, Barracks complete, pop10)

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Gift techs: Lit to JC for pleased, Drama to Liz for pleased (to avoid dog piling on us) after Drama is used up on other AI
Avoid trading away Lit
Gift resources: No plan
Trade techs: Trade Drama for Math from Alex (+ Lit if necessary)
Trade resource: Cancel dear for gold and replace with marble for gold
Bribe for War: Get Fred (Drama) and Asoka (Drama) against Toku, and JC (Drama) against HC
No peace with HC. Not now, not ever.
OTHERS
Research - Lightbulb Philosophy (once Math is acquired), Priesthood, CoL
Civic change - Slavery and Pacifism on T66
Religion change - Hinduism on T65 after JC is manipulated.
Monitor resources when Calendar is learned to negotiate our gifts into proper trade. (Fred-Crab-Dye)
Monitor AI relations each turn (+/-)
Monitor Worst Enemy each turn
Monitor occupied hands each turn
Use freekin' Missionary as scout
Sequence
Gift Literacy to JC
If +4 with JC, bribe DoW
Convert Hindu
Gift Literacy to Asoka if not pleased
Bribe Asoka DoW Toku
Bribe JC DoW
Bribe Freddy DoW
Trade math
Gift Drama to Liz
Lightbulb Philo

Might as well change to slavery at the same time as pacifism - it's free, and will be useful if we're DOW'd.

I'm open to suggestionsuh...did you mean in addition to posts #1004 and #1032-1110 or instead of? ;)

There is still another option (new cans of worms). I think JC doesn't have copper :lol:. If we hook up iron, we don't need copper.Tht would be good, because I'd rather see us grow to pop11 quickly AND without using lame tiles.

Tht would be good, because I'd rather see us grow to pop11 quickly AND without using lame tiles.

Will take most if not all of Erkon's turnset though because of the ice. That still ok?

Will take most if not all of Erkon's turnset though because of the ice. That still ok?No, I see it as an idea for later, not for Erkon's turn. Furthermore, we could lose it to England, come to think of it. Would that get us a minus, by any chance?

Will take most if not all of Erkon's turnset though because of the ice. That still ok?
It will take quite a bit longer than Erkon's turn set, so that's not a quick option. We can and should hook up the sheep. Then iron I think, before stone. We can then trade our copper, but also build swords, while stone is only good for trading.

No, I see it as an idea for later, not for Erkon's turn. Furthermore, we could lose it to England, come to think of it. Would that get us a minus, by any chance?
We will not lose it, unless Liz culture bombs. We are pumping nice culture into the tile, while Liz does nothing currently. We will still put in more culture when Liz starts to generate some. Only after expansion we will fall back a bit but then it's not far to our next expansion (which BTW should get us fish pretty quickly).

For what should we get a minus ? :confused:

Ok, re-read thread and played 5 turns (mid turn set save uploaded). Traded for Calendar and Math, construction learned by one AI (think it was Washington). Forgot to change to Pacifism to GS may be a bit late. Nothing really exciting happen except:PPP updated to v1.1 :lol:

Sorry for my lame humor... :cool:

Why would you want to trade for steenkin' calendar. We don't need this before we want astronomy.

Peace with HC?


Not now.
Not if HC gets open borders with Washington.
Not if you spot a gigantic stack heading towards Murkyopolis.
Not if that stack enters our culture.
But if there happen to be enemy units on top of an improved tile or next to Murkyopolis then you are allowed to sue for peace. Should cost us Meditation... :lol:

Asoka will be pleased immediately by our conversion, so no gift necessary.
But I want to gift Liz (drama as this is widely spread then), so she gets immediately pleased and doesn't dog pile us.

Ok, re-read thread and played 5 turns (mid turn set save uploaded). Traded for Calendar and Math, construction learned by one AI (think it was Washington). Forgot to change to Pacifism to GS may be a bit late. Nothing really exciting happen except:PPP updated to v1.1 :lol:

Sorry for my lame humor... :cool:

Lame indeed. :rolleyes:

Not now.
Not if HC gets open borders with Washington.
Not if you spot a gigantic stack heading towards Murkyopolis.
Not if that stack enters our culture.
But if there happen to be enemy units on top of an improved tile or next to Murkyopolis then you are allowed to sue for peace. Should cost us Meditation... :lol:
Well, I'm not sure. If it's only 1 or 2 archers we might rather give up our growth course and pop-rush (sure revolt to slavery with pacifism) a pair of axes.
I would really like to stay at war with HC, so we don't have to declare again.

Edit:
Rather than watch our friends suicide their units, we should watch out in America, if HC gets OB with George.

Why would you want to trade for steenkin' calendar. We don't need this before we want astronomy.

Erkon, you shouldn't trade for Calendar. But you should monitor if Freddie gets it so that you can renegotiate our crab? gift to him into a trade for dyes as soon as he connects them.

Probably this won't happen until next turnset anyway...

Well, I'm not sure. If it's only 1 or 2 archers we might rather give up our growth course and pop-rush (sure revolt to slavery with pacifism) a pair of axes.
I would really like to stay at war with HC, so we don't have to declare again.

I agree that we wan't to stay at war with HC. But I would rather bribe someone else like Alex to enter/re-enter the war. An additional DoW has caused enemy units in my territory to retreat back home more than once.

Ok, re-read thread and played 5 turns (mid turn set save uploaded). Traded for Calendar and Math, construction learned by one AI (think it was Washington). Forgot to change to Pacifism to GS may be a bit late. Nothing really exciting happen except:PPP updated to v1.1 :lol:

Sorry for my lame humor... :cool:

Ooooh

I though I had lost the opportunity to present my ideas about the PPP...
Here they come:

- What's sooner, bribing AIs into war or getting Maths?
If we don't bribe, we run the risk of being dowed. If we bribe, we run the risk of been unable to trade for Maths (and consequently, unable to bulb Philo).
- What's sooner, revolting to Philo or revolting to hindu?
- Get us slavery, just in case.
- I prefer theatre better than Barracks. We don't need the latter till Construction. The former can be needed sooner.
EDIT: keep the shared war turns coming

Ooooh

I though I had lost the opportunity to present my ideas about the PPP...
Here they come:

- What's sooner, bribing AIs into war or getting Maths?
If we don't bribe, we run the risk of being dowed. If we bribe, we run the risk of been unable to trade for Maths (and consequently, unable to bulb Philo).
- What's sooner, revolting to Philo or revolting to hindu?
- Get us slavery, just in case.
- I prefer theatre better than Barracks. We don't need the latter till Construction. The former can be needed sooner.
We have drama and lit on Alex. That's a lot more value than math. Drama alone should do, even when already given out a few times. The DoWs are more expensive than math.
First Hindu, as we want to bribe Asoka and don't need to gift him to pleased then (we are doing to good :crazyeye: in score and have lost a better rank point).

Erkon, I think there's a missing aspect to your PPP Template. Your PPP and jesusin's question reflect that. The sequence you perform the trades/revolts on T65 is critical. The slightest blunder and we get the spoon. The Spoon. But when I look at your PP, I can't evaluate it, because I'm not sure what your sequence of actions is. What's first, what's second?

I just noticed that our land can be sealed by blocking only 3 tiles. If we block all (with warrior, scout and missionary :lol:), HC should not be able to send troops from far away targeting the city. He might still accidentially stumble on our blocks and would attack then.

I've still not fully recovered from my illness, but plan to complete the PPP tomorrow before noon, and play Friday night or Saturday morning. Thank you for your patience.

I've still not fully recovered from my illness, but plan to complete the PPP tomorrow before noon, and play Friday night or Saturday morning. Thank you for your patience.

Take care, mate. And stay off the booze next time!

I just noticed that our land can be sealed by blocking only 3 tiles. If we block all (with warrior, scout and missionary :lol:), HC should not be able to send troops from far away targeting the city. He might still accidentially stumble on our blocks and would attack then.

This is a great idea. Though I would prefer to have our scout and even one warrior out scouting. They won't see much from those three tiles. :(

I've still not fully recovered from my illness, but plan to complete the PPP tomorrow before noon, and play Friday night or Saturday morning. Thank you for your patience.Calling in sick so you can carefully plan your turnset is, imo, a correct assessment of relative importances. I agree that this is a crucial turnset. :cool:

Please take as much time as you need. ;)

We have drama and lit on Alex. That's a lot more value than math. Drama alone should do, even when already given out a few times. The DoWs are more expensive than math.
First Hindu, as we want to bribe Asoka and don't need to gift him to pleased then (we are doing to good :crazyeye: in score and have lost a better rank point).Above you say first Hindu, but below you have JC and Alex before Hindu:Ok, let's try some hair raising diplomacy ( I love that stuff).
We start with gifting lit to JC. We bribe him on (?) HC or Toku. We buy math from Alex :eek:. Should be well in our allowance for WE trading.
Then we convert to Hindu. No problem with KK and Fred, we have enough points with them. JC should also be Ok, at least after we got a few shared war points.
We bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku.
Then we gift enough to Liz that she's pleased. She will not dog pile us at pleased.
Most of the continent is at war and we are hated only by the weakest civs :D.

and I thought you had a reason, namely, switching to Hindu will get a negmod with JC (right?), possibly bringing him down to Cautious where he won't be bribed. Maybe we could first gift JC Lite and see if it gets us to +5 (JC was Cautious at +3 recently). If so, we could go Hindu next and then the safest sequence of bribing.

Alex will trade Math at Cautious, so Hindu shouldn't be a problem with him, I suppose.

Given all our discussion (including keeping Lite for Asoka), klarius, do you think you could indicate the best sequence of revolting, trading and bribing? (with Philo and Pacifism, right?)


___________

Question: How to know the max negmod for each AI for different religions? (xml excel chart shows -1 for all)

Above you say first Hindu, but below you have JC and Alex before Hindu:

and I thought you had a reason, namely, switching to Hindu will get a negmod with JC (right?), possibly bringing him down to Cautious where he won't be bribed. Maybe we could first gift JC Lite and see if it gets us to +5 (JC was Cautious at +3 recently). If so, we could go Hindu next and then the safest sequence of bribing.

Alex will trade Math at Cautious, so Hindu shouldn't be a problem with him, I suppose.

Given all our discussion (including keeping Lite for Asoka), klarius, do you think you could indicate the best sequence of revolting, trading and bribing? (with Philo and Pacifism, right?)


___________

Question: How to know the max negmod for each AI for different religions? (xml excel chart shows -1 for all)
I said first Hindu on the question of Hindu - Pacifism.
The critical part is JC. We should not convert before bribing him. The gift may or may not be enough for him otherwise (if we get to +5 it's enough, +4 is not sure).
The rest is uncritical from attitude, so we can convert right after that to move the expensive DoW trade with Asoka in front of the math trade, though I didn't write it that way in my first quick shot.
We don't want to use philo, so lb'ing it can come last.

The max neg is iDifferentReligionChange -1 if they have holy city of their religion + iDifferentReligionChangeLimit (-1 for all; after 5 turns).
Thats -1 for KK and Liz, -3 for HC, -4 for Isa, -2 for the rest.
That's the value after 5 turns. The -2 folks give only -1 immediately.

Edit:
OK, sequence:
Gift lit to JC. Check if we are at +5. If yes, convert to Hindu, if no bribe him first.
The price of DoWs Asoka-Toku > JC-Toku > JC-HC > Freddy-Toku.
Trade for math is uncritical and can come last.

Editx:
Delaying Fred -> Toku a turn or 2 is an option to consider.

I've still not fully recovered from my illness, but plan to complete the PPP tomorrow before noon, and play Friday night or Saturday morning. Thank you for your patience.

I thought Vikings never fell ill :confused:
Oh, maybe it's alcoholic intoxication then...

No hurry, take care.

Well, CRC finally came out of hibernation. After being one of the first teams to start, with a 22-turn turnset, their second player finally played: a whopping 37-turn turnset!!! (So much for a SG turnset being a 'fixed number of turns.' :lol:) Guess they got sick of missing out on the gold or something. ;) Looks like they're also on our path: Alpha>GLib. EDIT: Now I think they pulled off a hybrid path. They slow-built the Pyramids and bee-lined Alpha. Hmm...Maybe they waited to see how fast other teams bult the Pyramids and decided they had time to slow-build it.

Let's keep the peddle to the metal!

PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111)updated. Please review.

There's a couple of question marks because I tried to include a few ideas from the peanut gallery that didn't receive standing ovations. And I've tried to extract stuff from earlier posts, but I may have missed things.

I've still got one update left, which is the chop version of MM. I think we will grow to pop10 in my turn set if I chop.

EDIT: PPP updated with chop. Looks much nicer :D

You seem to have suffered a massive recovery, Erkon! Truly excellent PPP!!! I have two issues of concern:

Issue #1: Without going any deeper, I noticed an error in your MM:
With chop:
T67 :...H16+38 = 54, not 64 !!which sent me to klarius' original post on this:Well, I thought to work no scientists for 2 turns, instead of 1 for 4. Worker chops now, that allows to finish the lh first turn out of revolt. Then switching to max food we can be size 8 the turn after.

I love getting the LH done on T68--Power Move chopping two anarchy turns into an instant LH!!! However, I don't like working the two forest grass (EDIT: or coastal tiles) on T68 just to get to pop8 a turn sooner. Your turnset, Erkon, but I have to believe it would be better to continue working the marble and furs instead of two forest grass. Gives us a ton more hammers and cash. Yes, we want to grow fast, but we should let our food resource tiles do that work. Let's not forget that there is an expensive -10%-base-research trade-off for using the culture slider. So maximally fast growth may not be optimal growth. I think fast growth coupled with good production is the mix we want.

Issue #2: Related to Issue #1, I disagree with this:...We're not in a hurry to build right now...I think we're in a big hurry to build lh, theatre, barracks, and 2-3axes, so we're free to crank out cats the first chance we get. Soon we'll have to build our University and Oxford. We want to build as many cats before that as inhumanly possible. EDIT2: Because of this, I agree with klarius to go ahead and chop the second forest too, whenever it fits in. I'm thinking chop>road>road sheep> move and chop river hill wastes the least worker-turns and gets us chopped hammers at appropriate moments.

PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111)updated. Please review.

There's a couple of question marks because I tried to include a few ideas from the peanut gallery that didn't receive standing ovations. And I've tried to extract stuff from earlier posts, but I may have missed things.

I've still got one update left, which is the chop version of MM. I think we will grow to pop10 in my turn set if I chop.

EDIT: PPP updated with chop. Looks much nicer :D


Slavery + Pacifism on same turn.

Use the missionary for scouting. We have two wars to cover and definitely don't want either city to fall in the wrong hands. I would even use Philosophy as a bribe to avoid this.


But who are we cheering for here? We will have our four favourite AIs at war: Kublai, Fred, Asoka, and JC. Each a potential PA partner. Maybe it doesn't even matter who comes out as winners from these wars since we will be on friendly terms with all of them, though mostly so with Kublai and Asoka.

I love getting the LH done on T68--Power Move chopping two anarchy turns into an instant LH!!! However, I don't like working the two forest grass (EDIT: or coastal tiles) on T68 just to get to pop8 a turn sooner.
We lose hammers but come out ahead in commerce, if we work coastal tiles.
A pop more, working coast, will pay for 10% culture, as long as we are below 40 base commerce. So, no reason to not grow. Silver should come in while we are at pop 9, so we will not need more than 10%.

Edit:
Still one thing:
With silver the theater doesn't help at size 10. Maybe put an unpromoted axe in there before theater.
That would be our new scout :), while the old is gifted away to avoid cost.

Okay. This is shaping right up. We'll also get dyes pretty soon, which means at pop11 we either run 10% culture without needing the theatre or have the theatre without needing the culture slider. ;) So Erkon needs to start monitoring Fred's research of Calendar as soon as we get Math. The turn Fred gets Calendar, we need to switch the build to the theatre. Until then, we build barracks>axes>theatre (Edit: Just one axe to make Gnejs happy;) and avoid mil unit costs). How does that sound?

I would like to get our 10XP axe up and smiling asap.

EDIT: And on the growth, the 6h we lose we can make up by working the stone for a turn, if we want, so I'm good on max food, too. Either way seems about the same, so growing faster strikes me as better. Better to grow now, before we make our Academy.

Okay. This is shaping right up. We'll also get dyes pretty soon, which means at pop11 we either run 10% culture without needing the theatre or have the theatre without needing the culture slider. ;) So Erkon needs to start monitoring Fred's research of Calendar as soon as we get Math. The turn Fred gets Calendar, we need to switch the build to the theatre. Until then, we build barracks>axes. How does that sound?

I would like to get our 10XP axe up and smiling asap.

EDIT: And on the growth, the 6h we lose we can make up by working the stone for a turn, if we want, so I'm good on max food, too. Either way seems about the same, so growing faster strikes me as better. Better to grow now, before we make our Academy.

I think it is unlikely that we will find 6 XP worth of soft targets for an axe. It is better to tick off buildings in the queue so that we later can focus on more useful units. Like cats. :)

Maybe put an unpromoted axe in there before theater. That would be our new scout :), while the old is gifted away to avoid cost.Speaking of unit costs, as I understand Roland Johanssen's article on it, our free military support will go from 2 to 3 at pop9. I assume that free support also covers the 1:gold: for Pacifism for the first 3 military units, right? We have 0:gold: in reserve so we are in a hurry to get to pop9. :D That means we either kill off our scout or a warrior until pop9 or run 90% research for a turn or two. It also means we're in a hurry for AIs to research Commerce so we can pay for our axes and cats.

EDIT: And it means: don't gift Priesthood!!! I'd rather see the AIs reearch Construction and Currency before Monarchy plus we might be able to trade PH for some gold pretty soon.

I think it is unlikely that we will find 6 XP worth of soft targets for an axe. It is better to tick off buildings in the queue so that we later can focus on more useful units. Like cats. :)We'll want a couple of axes to run cover for our cats anyway and at least one at home for safety's sake.

Getting the XP can be tricky, you're right. We could fortify a couple of jungle promoted axes near Toku and watch him suicide a dozen archers, or we could lurk near HC and cherrypick our attacks. HC also has a couple of unpillaged tiles to the NW. They might be guarded. Anyway, the sooner we start, the sooner it will happen.

Speaking of unit costs, as I understand Roland Johanssen's article on it, our free military support will go from 2 to 3 at pop9. I assume that free support also covers the 1:gold: for Pacifism for the first 3 military units, right? We have 0:gold: in reserve so we are in a hurry to get to pop9. :D That means we either kill off our scout or a warrior until pop9 or run 90% research for a turn or two. It also means we're in a hurry for AIs to research Commerce so we can pay for our axes and cats.

EDIT: And it means: don't gift Priesthood!!! I'd rather see the AIs reearch Construction and Currency before Monarchy plus we might be able to trade PH for some gold pretty soon.

We can't play the diplomatic game effectively if we are blind to the war progress. WE NEED SCOUTS, in some form. They are worth many times their upkeep cost. I even prefer to send out warrior #2 on scouting again, together with the missionary.

I would much rather go down to 90% permanently than kill off any one of these units.

We can't play the diplomatic game effectively if we are blind to the war progress. WE NEED SCOUTS, in some form. They are worth many times their upkeep cost. I even prefer to send out warrior #2 on scouting again, together with the missionary.

I would much rather go down to 90% permanently than kill off any one of these units.Sounds good to me. Hey, Gnejs, do you think you could do a screenshot of Cuzco and its vicinity and draw on it how you would use the scout/warrior/missionary to military advantage? For example, if you were approaching with a stack of cats and you wanted to get a certain AI to capture it. Where would you station your reconnaisance units and what moves would they make each turn?

We'll want a couple of axes to run cover for our cats anyway and at least one at home for safety's sake.

Getting the XP can be tricky, you're right. We could fortify a couple of jungle promoted axes near Toku and watch him suicide a dozen archers, or we could lurk near HC and cherrypick our attacks. HC also has a couple of unpillaged tiles to the NW. They might be guarded. Anyway, the sooner we start, the sooner it will happen.

If we had been scouting effectively we would know. ;)

But ok, we could fortify a unit or two and hope they get attacked. Btw, it seems as if the AI actively seeks out the human player and leaves closer enemy AI units alone. Maybe this only happens when the human units are weaker or fewer.

Could the peanut gallery please make up your mind regarding the build order, else I'll decide myself? I aint building a freekin' unpromoted axe on my watch :D. And no disband either. We can upgrade the warrior once we get surplus gold from tech trade.

Lighthouse first no matter what. Then it's either Theater, Barracks, Axe, Monastary
Theater is good for Globe Theater and +1 happiness from dye. The GT is not a high prio thing (why did we research Drama? :lol:) but the +1 :) from the Theater-dye will free up the silver for gifting. OTOH if we switch to Hereditary Rule at the same time as Bureaucracy, we may not need Theater at all???

I'm leaning towards skipping the Theater and go for Barracks-axe(s).

Does the scout really cost military upkeep?

Now I just have to sort out a better chopping scheme to get the lighthouse out in time.

Btw, it seems as if the AI actively seeks out the human player and leaves closer enemy AI units alone. Maybe this only happens when the human units are weaker or fewer.
The AI makes no difference between human player and AI players. Enemy is enemy.
The decision to attack is based on attack odds. The attack odds are modified for single defending units on a tile.
That may be the reason people think they are attacked more often, as AI units rarely walk alone.

Could the peanut gallery please make up your mind regarding the build order, else I'll decide myself? I aint building a freekin' unpromoted axe on my watch :D. And no disband either. We can upgrade the warrior once we get surplus gold from tech trade.

Upgrading an unpromoted warrior to a freakin' unpromoted axe isn't worth it, IMO.
And BTW, I'm never talking about disbanding. Gift it to a friend, if you have to get rid of a unit.


Lighthouse first no matter what. Then it's either Theater, Barracks, Axe, Monastary
Theater is good for Globe Theater and +1 happiness from dye. The GT is not a high prio thing (why did we research Drama? :lol:) but the +1 :) from the Theater-dye will free up the silver for gifting. OTOH if we switch to Hereditary Rule at the same time as Bureaucracy, we may not need Theater at all???

11 is not necessarily our max size. :)
When health permits (harbor, fish) working additional coast tiles gets our commerce up.
Also we have already now problems to trade for happiness resources. Only the dyes from Fred come for "free", if he ever will hook up some. We need our health resources.

Does the scout really cost military upkeep?

yes

Sounds good to me. Hey, Gnejs, do you think you could do a screenshot of Cuzco and its vicinity and draw on it how you would use the scout/warrior/missionary to military advantage? For example, if you were approaching with a stack of cats and you wanted to get a certain AI to capture it. Where would you station your reconnaisance units and what moves would they make each turn?


I don't have access to the save right now. But once the roads have been pillaged it is easy. Any tile within 2 tiles of Cuzco has a view of the city, and both JC and Kublai will be coming from the south. Kyoto is trickier since the attackers will come from two directions and there are hills to the N. Though two scouting units should work ok. I will check tonight.




EDIT: Ok, here are two screenshots.

177044177045

If we start at Kyoto there is a great tile NW of the lake where a single unit can view all the action. But that tile is only safe if the road NW of Kyoto is either pillaged or has a stack of Asokas units on top of it. Before that happens there are really no good resting tiles at all even for units with 2 movement. While we are waiting for that to happen we can use one or two 2-move units to advance while there are friendly units blocking Toku's defenders, and quickly retreat if they suicide.

At Cuzco the forest tile 2 NW is safe since it is within Alex' borders. But we would rather be watching the plains to the south of the capital. If the roads are still there as in the screenshot a scout 2 SE can move right next to the capital and back again without any risk of being targetted. If all the roads are gone the tile 2S is probably best as it lets us see around the Cuzco hill on both sides.

PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111)updated. Please review.


This is taking shape!

1.- Beakers are of lower importance? Who says that? Please, take us to Bureaucracy as fast as you can. If you won't do it for me, please, think about the hammers we are losing every turn we are out of Bureaucracy.

2.- Growth is useless in itself. It helps getting hammers and beakers in the future. If we are talking about working sea tiles, then we can assume that growing 1 turn sooner is worth 3 commerce. Please be sure that we don't sacrifice more than 3 commerce in order to grow sooner. I am all for growing slowly, if growing fast means not working important tiles.

3.- If we are flipping deer for Marble, there's no marble we can gift.

4.- Stone is 5h. Marble is 4h+3c. 3c>1h, so I wouldn't work Stone but Marble whenever possible. There are 3 hammers overflow from the lh, lets' turn them into 9 beakers.



Builder? Oui, c'est moi.

Imagine Asoka is not Pleased with Hindu. Would trading PH for Lite (instead of just gifting Lite) be enough to get him to pleased? Taht would save us a turn of research.

stream of consciousness:

Bureau asap...build 2 monasteries...Cuzco attacks...build barracks>axes...Max food...build theatre...build build build...we need hammers...switch to Pacifism + Slavery...we have four bonus food tile...with max food grow to pop11 in 2 turns...with theatre we don't need culture slider at pop11...that means we have a :) to spare at 10% :culture:...cough cough

anyone for poprushing some stuff?

Thinking out loud

lh(16/60h), barracks(6/60h), theatre (50h, 2 monasteries(@60h) = 268h

Asoka: Trade Lite + Drama for Mono + PH + DoW Toku (?)
bulb Philo build Academy
Switch to OrgRel + Slavery
build: 1 monastery (EDIT: just 1 without PHilo)>lh>...

268h = 215h * 125%
CoL(6t)>CS(14t) done on T85 or sooner

Edit: klarius finished CS on T88 in his best attempt

...11 is not necessarily our max size. :)
When health permits (harbor, fish) working additional coast tiles gets our commerce up.
Also we have already now problems to trade for happiness resources. Only the dyes from Fred come for "free", if he ever will hook up some. We need our health resources...

My point was that we're not in a hurry to build the Theater since there are other sources of happiness that does not cost hammers. Therefor I plan to postpone the theater and build the barracks instead. Perhaps I was not clear.

So what shall we do with out poor worker? Connect resources, chop, build cottages, build mine, quarry stone, mine iron, all of it preferably during my turn set. :lol: Everything is top priority. :crazyeye:

This is taking shape!

1.- Beakers are of lower importance? Who says that? Please, take us to Bureaucracy as fast as you can. If you won't do it for me, please, think about the hammers we are losing every turn we are out of Bureaucracy.

2.- Growth is useless in itself. It helps getting hammers and beakers in the future. If we are talking about working sea tiles, then we can assume that growing 1 turn sooner is worth 3 commerce. Please be sure that we don't sacrifice more than 3 commerce in order to grow sooner. I am all for growing slowly, if growing fast means not working important tiles.

3.- If we are flipping deer for Marble, there's no marble we can gift.

4.- Stone is 5h. Marble is 4h+3c. 3c>1h, so I wouldn't work Stone but Marble whenever possible. There are 3 hammers overflow from the lh, lets' turn them into 9 beakers...

1. Me :D The priority this turn set is: GPP > food > hammers > beakers. But if you want to me to postpone the GS a turn or two, I can oblige :lol: If you look at the chop-MM, I loose 2 commerce by working coast instead of furs on T70, and a few more beakers on T74. Nothing to go ballistic about :p Just kidding.
2. Without spending too much analysis into this, I believe max growth is the fastest route to CS.

Sorry if I am rude, my kids are screaming at each others and I need to put them to bed. Why can't they respect my need to spend the necessary time at this forum :mad: :lol:

Imagine Asoka is not Pleased with Hindu. Would trading PH for Lite (instead of just gifting Lite) be enough to get him to pleased? Taht would save us a turn of research.
Asoka has the Hindu holy city. So he immediately gives a +2 attitude. It's not possible that he is not pleased.

Thinking out loud

lh(16/60h), barracks(6/60h), theatre (50h, 2 monasteries(@60h) = 268h

Asoka: Trade Lite + Drama for Mono + PH + DoW Toku (?)
bulb Philo build Academy
Switch to OrgRel + Slavery
build: 1 monastery (EDIT: just 1 without PHilo)>lh>...

268h = 215h * 125%
CoL(6t)>CS(14t) done on T85 or sooner

Edit: klarius finished CS on T88 in his best attempt


I don't think I understand. Academy 8 turns sooner is worth 50%*26*8 = 104 beakers currently. Our science output near completion of CS will probably be around 60 beakers so I would guess that the early academy gains less than 2 turns. All other things related to research being equal.

Running Pacifism we can bulb GS#3 on T86. Building an Academy would give us GS#2 for bulbing Philosophy on T82. So we would be 3/4 of a Philosophy bulb behind = more than 800 beakers. Assuming that we are running the 2 librarians all the time.


So what is two turns of Bureaucracy worth? Probably something like 40 hammers and 50 beakers. Is this better than 800 beakers? Not according to me.

Or am I too thick to understand? :crazyeye:

I don't think I understand. Academy 8 turns sooner is worth 50%*26*8 = 104 beakers currently. Our science output near completion of CS will probably be around 60 beakers so I would guess that the early academy gains less than 2 turns. All other things related to research being equal.

Running Pacifism we can bulb GS#3 on T86. Building an Academy would give us GS#2 for bulbing Philosophy on T82. So we would be 3/4 of a Philosophy bulb behind = more than 800 beakers. Assuming that we are running the 2 librarians all the time.


So what is two turns of Bureaucracy worth? Probably something like 40 hammers and 50 beakers. Is this better than 800 beakers? Not according to me.

Or am I too thick to understand? :crazyeye:

Well, I don't think your analogy that we are 3/4 of a Philo bulb behind is quite accurate, because beakers from bulbs are not ratable - it's all or nothing on whatever turn you bulb the GS.

But your point is dead on - In fact I believe early pacifism is worth more than 800 beakers.

That's because what is ratable is the gpp, and that is what matters. Essentially the early academy represents a gain of 104:science: (your calcs) against a cost of 100% of our base gpp from now until T82. Now, if we still found tao and pop the same # of GS by waiting to bulb philo, that is better b/c we're 104:science: ahead (plus some stuff from accelerating CS and Oxford, so say I don't know, maybe 300:science: and 40:hammers:). But if the extra gpp from running pacifism from now allows us to get an extra GS as compared to waiting, then that is better, because the bonus GS :science: are a LOT more than we get by advancing the academy and CS (and later Oxford too) by just a couple turns each.

And all we need to get an extra GS is 100gpp generated by early pacifism, which is - low and behold - the 8 turns we delay the academy (well actually it's 8.3=9, but that's still less turns then we delay pacifism if we wait to bulb philo after an academy)

So if we don't bulb now and run pacifism, we will be -1 GS for the rest of the game. That's what klarius meant (I think) when he said the philo GS is free.

Final (?) PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111) updated (v2.0) - please review

A couple of final questions:

How do I monitor the worst enemy for each AI?

What demands shall I give in to? Anything from KK, Fred, JC and Asoka? Nothing from others?

What techs shall I trade for if available: currency? construction?

Shall I delay Asoka bribe one turn or Fred bribe one turn? Fred is weak and it would be easier for Asoka to capture Kyoto if Toku sends his stack to Fred. Or will someone trade Drama to Asoka InterTurn?

klarius, you mention in post 1096 that:
...The relations between our neighbors will still be pretty good as they like each other naturally ...
How do you know they like each others naturally? That was the questions I had a couple of hundred posts earlier :lol:

The Academy adds 60%. (50%research bonus * 1.2prereq bonus=60% additional beakers)

For this calculation I'll use 35 base research, although it's actually more because we're using 2 sci for 6 of the 8t. Btw, your 26 forgets about the 2 GLib sci.

With Academy:
175% * 1.2 = 210% * 35 = 73.5 rounded down. 500:science:/(73:science:/t)=6.85t
125% * 1.2 = 150% * 35 = 52.5 rounded down. 500/52=9.6t

So the Academy gets CoL 3 turns sooner, producing ~150:science: more during those 8t. The exact sum depends on the actual beakers per turn after rounding losses. That depends on Erkon's MM. Erkon is an independent soul. ;)

For my previous calcs, I used 43 base :science: per turn, which is a guess of the average over the next 20 turns. Using my same numbers I checked how long it will take to get to CS bulbing Philo and I get 24t = T89. I didn't use any monasteries. So the big surprise here is not that Academy now is so much better, but that our research is doing well. Even bulbing Philo, I think we'll be at T88 or better on CS.

The Academy adds 60%. (50%research bonus * 1.2prereq bonus=60% additional beakers)

That's nonsense the academy is 40% additional beakers on top of library.

That's nonsense the academy is 40% additional beakers on top of library.Nonsense is in the eye of the beholder. :p

You are correct and sensical in that the final Academy total may be 40% greater than the Library total, but the Academy adds 60% of the base beakers. In other words, the multiplication factor on the base beakers goes from 1.5 to 2.1. Gnejs used the factor of 50% for his calculations. That omits the additional 1.2 factor that is multiplied next, as you yourself pointed out to me recently.

How do I monitor the worst enemy for each AI?

What demands shall I give in to? Anything from KK, Fred, JC and Asoka? Nothing from others?

What techs shall I trade for if available: currency? construction?

Shall I delay Asoka bribe one turn or Fred bribe one turn? Fred is weak and it would be easier for Asoka to capture Kyoto if Toku sends his stack to Fred. Or will someone trade Drama to Asoka InterTurn?

klarius, you mention in post 1096 that:

How do you know they like each others naturally? That was the questions I had a couple of hundred posts earlier :lol:1. Worst enemy. Doesn't work when you first open the save, but later you can simply click on each AI in teh lower right corner of the screen to open up his window. Read his greeting to you. He'll say Hello or Beware of my archers or Don't trade with my worst enemy... Just keep opening and closing until you get the message you're looking for. This is also how we find out his best unit (i.e., whether he has copper or iron yet).

2. Not sure we need any techs other than Construction right now. We want to avoid WFYABTA as much as possible.

.
.
.

3. Naturally liking each other. This has to do with the hidden attitude points AIs have for one another. klarius has made a best guess on what those are in our game and attached it as his Leader_Attitude excel chart (at least twice so far). The hidden values can change for some AIs depending on their relative score ranks. Here's ori's thread on AI attitudes. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204328) Be sure to read the klarius' clarifications in the thread.

Anyway, if you study klarius' chart carefully, you will see that the best guess for Liz, for example, was hidden points of +4 for Fred, +4 for Washington, and +2 for Asoka. (They may be a bit different now.) If the +4 for Fred is correct, this means that if you see that Liz is +5 Pleased with Fred, then you know she's actually +9 Pleased and if she gets +1 more, she'll switch to Friendly. Similarly, if you see she's -2 Cautious, she can still go down to -6 and still be Cautious.

>=10 visible + hidden attitude points: Friendly
>=3: Pleased
>=-2: Cautious
<=-3: Annoyed
<=-10: Furious

Shall I delay Asoka bribe one turn or Fred bribe one turn? Fred is weak and it would be easier for Asoka to capture Kyoto if Toku sends his stack to Fred. Or will someone trade Drama to Asoka InterTurn?



Nobody else seems to be considering this question so let me be a bit provocative:

Delay Asoka two turns. Tokus archers will them swarm into Freddieland and set him back further, while Asoka gets a good shot at capturing Kyoto. Asoka gaining a production city like Kyoto will make him the most powerful AI for sure.

I would even consider setting JC on Toku while delaying Asoka a couple of turns more. Once JC's praetorians have decimated the defenses we by JC peace for Philosophy and let Asoka wander in.

My point was that we're not in a hurry to build the Theater since there are other sources of happiness that does not cost hammers. Therefor I plan to postpone the theater and build the barracks instead. Perhaps I was not clear.

So what shall we do with out poor worker? Connect resources, chop, build cottages, build mine, quarry stone, mine iron, all of it preferably during my turn set. :lol: Everything is top priority. :crazyeye:



1. Me :D The priority this turn set is: GPP > food > hammers > beakers. But if you want to me to postpone the GS a turn or two, I can oblige :lol: If you look at the chop-MM, I loose 2 commerce by working coast instead of furs on T70, and a few more beakers on T74. Nothing to go ballistic about :p Just kidding.
2. Without spending too much analysis into this, I believe max growth is the fastest route to CS.

Sorry if I am rude, my kids are screaming at each others and I need to put them to bed. Why can't they respect my need to spend the necessary time at this forum :mad: :lol:

Noooooooooo! My eyes hurt when I look at your PPP. :cry: Working sea tiles, working forest! :mad: Abandoning the furs too! Aaaarg

Seriously: I firmly believe that we can get around 1267 hammers more in the same time by growing fast but not as fast as possible. And some more beakers too. Please, give me this morning, I'll try to make do a MM PPP in the place where I shouldn't be doing making it.

The Academy adds 60%. (50%research bonus * 1.2prereq bonus=60% additional beakers)

For this calculation I'll use 35 base research, although it's actually more because we're using 2 sci for 6 of the 8t. Btw, your 26 forgets about the 2 GLib sci.

With Academy:
175% * 1.2 = 210% * 35 = 73.5 rounded down. 500:science:/(73:science:/t)=6.85t
125% * 1.2 = 150% * 35 = 52.5 rounded down. 500/52=9.6t

So the Academy gets CoL 3 turns sooner, producing ~150:science: more during those 8t. The exact sum depends on the actual beakers per turn after rounding losses. That depends on Erkon's MM. Erkon is an independent soul. ;)

For my previous calcs, I used 43 base :science: per turn, which is a guess of the average over the next 20 turns. Using my same numbers I checked how long it will take to get to CS bulbing Philo and I get 24t = T89. I didn't use any monasteries. So the big surprise here is not that Academy now is so much better, but that our research is doing well. Even bulbing Philo, I think we'll be at T88 or better on CS.

On the bulb Philosophy track we get GS#4 at ~T101. Assuming Paper takes 10T to research that is pretty good timing for using GS#3 and GS#4 for immediately bulbing Education.

The Academy first track gives GS#2 on T82, and GS#3 on T96, if revolt to Pacifism and Bureaucracy on the same turn (T85). GS#4 then doesn't come until T111 so we are delaying Education and Oxford by 10 turns.

@jesusin: Please, would you also include the :commerce: so we get a well-rounded picture?

@Gnejs: I'm in full agreement on bulbing Philo.

T68 : F24+11, H6+8, GPP18+16 : Coast + Cottage (lighthouse complete)
T69 : F19+7, H14+8, GPP34+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage (pop8)



Is there a mistake here?

We have a granary and need 34 food to grow. We get to 35 food, so at the beggining of the next turn we should have 34/2+1 =18 food out of 36, not 19.

@Gnejs: I'm in full agreement on bulbing Philo.


Me too ( diplomacy issues are still partially unclear for me - but that's because of my lack of experience for sure ... ).

Regards and good luck Erkon ! :)

Alternative A is not working unimproved tiles till pop9, when coast is worked in order to get a similar result to Erkon.


Erkon MM:

T65 : anarchy
T66 : anarchy
T67 : F17+7, H16+44, GPP2+16 : Stone + Grassland Forest
T68 : F24+11, H6+8, GPP18+16 : Coast + Cottage (lighthouse complete)
T69 : F19+7, H14+8, GPP34+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage (pop8)
T70 : F26+7, H22+8, GPP62+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T71 : F33+7, H30+8, GPP90+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T72 : F23+7, H38+8, GPP118+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Coast (pop9)
T73 : F30+8, H46+6, GPP146+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + 2xCoast - furs
T74 : F20+3, H52+17, GPP174+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Stone + Marble (pop10)
T75 : F23 (20 without mistake), H9, GPP202 (GS available, Barracks complete)

Alternative A:
T65 : anarchy
T66 : anarchy
T67 : F17+5, H16+47, GPP2+16 : Stone +marble
T68 : F22+9, H6+3+8, GPP18+22 : Sci + Cottage (lighthouse complete)
T69 : F31+9, H17+8, GPP40+22 : Sci + Cottage
T70 : F23+7, H25+8, GPP62+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage (pop8)
T71 : F30+7, H33+8, GPP90+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T72 : F19+7, H41+8, GPP118+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Coast (pop9)
T73 : F26+7, H49+8, GPP146+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Coast
T74 : F33+5, H57+12, GPP174+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Marble
T75 : F19, H9, GPP202 (GS available, Barracks complete, pop10)

Differences (Alternative A minus Erkon) in F-H-C turn by turn:

-2 3 3
-2 0 0
2 0 -3
0 0 0
0 0 0
0 0 0
-1 2 2
2 -5 0

Result: Same turns working cottage, same GPP, one less food, same hammers, 2 more commerce.

Alternative B is not ever working unimproved tiles.

Erkon MM +1turn:

T65 : anarchy
T66 : anarchy
T67 : F17+7, H16+44, GPP2+16 : Stone + Grassland Forest
T68 : F24+11, H6+8, GPP18+16 : Coast + Cottage (lighthouse complete)
T69 : F19+7, H14+8, GPP34+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage (pop8)
T70 : F26+7, H22+8, GPP62+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T71 : F33+7, H30+8, GPP90+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T72 : F23+7, H38+8, GPP118+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Coast (pop9)
T73 : F30+8, H46+6, GPP146+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + 2xCoast - furs
T74 : F20+3, H52+17, GPP174+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Stone + Marble (pop10)
T75 : F23 , H9, GPP202 (GS available, Barracks complete)
T76: F26 (23 without mistake), H26,

Alternative B:

T65 : anarchy
T66 : anarchy
T67 : F17+5, H16+47, GPP2+16 : Stone +marble
T68 : F22+9, H6+3+8, GPP18+22 : Sci + Cottage (lighthouse complete)
T69 : F31+9, H17+8, GPP40+22 : Sci + Cottage
T70 : F23+7, H25+8, GPP62+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage (pop8)
T71 : F30+7, H33+8, GPP90+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage
T72 : F19+5, H41+12, GPP118+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Marble (pop9)
T73 : F24+5, H53+12, GPP146+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Marble
T74 : F29+5, H5+12, GPP174+28 : 2 Sci + Cottage + Marble (Barracks complete)
T75 : F34, H17, GPP202 (GS available)
T76: F20, H29, (pop10)

Differences (Alternative B minus Erkon) in F-H-C turn by turn:

-2 3 3
-2 0 0
2 0 -3
0 0 0
0 0 0
-2 4 0
-3 6 2
2 -5 0
2 -5 0

Result: Same turns working cottage, same GPP, 3 less food, 3 more hammers, 2 more commerce. As a slight advantage, the need to get happy resources is more relaxed in Alternative B.

Conclusion:

There are no big differences. Growing 1 turn sooner is good. Working an improved tile instead of an unimproved tile is good. Sacrificing one of them for the other leads to a similar result, both benefits cancel each other out.

Erkon, please, choose the one you prefer, I don't have strong feelings about any of the options (anymore).

Let's start doing making what I am supposed to make do here.

WORKER ACTIONS
Chop in place (T67), road hill and sheep. The chop will enable us to grow quicker.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
No peace with HC. Not now, not ever.I'm nervous with such low production. CHopping the river hill after roading the sheep would get the Theatre done soon after the barracks (or vice versa).

Have you no mercy, you ruthless, heartless pirate? Never peace for HC? Not even RIP on his tombstone? :cool:

Btw, does anyone experience an occasional belly laugh, thinking about how HC was merrily living his life, when all of a sudden everybody suddenly gangs up on him? :lol:

Erkon is an independent soul. ;)...

:scan:Yes, Erkon is an independent soul. :scan: :assimilate:

1. Worst enemy...

Thanks for the klarification

Nobody else seems to be considering this question so let me be a bit provocative:

Delay Asoka two turns...

I would like this as well. However, I need confirmation that we can bribe Asoka in two turns. Worst case we have to bribe with Philosophy. Could klarius help us out with this, please?

Noooooooooo! My eyes hurt when I look at your PPP. :cry: Working sea tiles, working forest! :mad: Abandoning the furs too! Aaaarg

Seriously: I firmly believe that we can get around 1267 hammers more in the same time by growing fast but not as fast as possible. And some more beakers too. Please, give me this morning, I'll try to make do a MM PPP in the place where I shouldn't be doing making it.

Time for you to make up your mind! :mad: Sea tiles generates beakers, so whats the problem? Loosing 4 hammers (from Marble) and gain 2 food? If we grow one turn faster, we can work the Marble and gain 3 :commerce: overall. In previous post you complained that I don't generate enough beakers, now that I don't generate enough hammers :crazyeye: And you don't want to reduce the GPP, so that leaves me with the only option to reduce growth. But that is only good if you look at one specific turn. If we look at the complete turn set, we will gain by max growth even at the end of T75. Ok, ok, it's only a guess, not a firm belief :lol:

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and vivid language :goodjob:

Is there a mistake here?

We have a granary and need 34 food to grow. We get to 35 food, so at the beggining of the next turn we should have 34/2+1 =18 food out of 36, not 19.

:cry::cry::cry:

Rats! I've checked in WB, and you are correct. My MM has to be redone. AGAIN!!! [pissed]

I'm nervous with such low production. CHopping the river hill after roading the sheep would get the Theatre done soon after the barracks (or vice versa).

Have you no mercy, you ruthless, heartless pirate? Never peace for HC? Not even RIP on his tombstone? :cool:

Btw, does anyone experience an occasional belly laugh, thinking about how HC was merrily living his life, when all of a sudden everybody suddenly gangs up on him? :lol:

Are you going to start complaining as well??? Soon I have to start considering that I'm wrong! :eek::lol: Ok, I'll randomize the movement of the worker on T74 and see where he ends up (on forest for chop, on iron for mine or stone for quarry :lol:)

EDIT: yes, HC must ask the gods what on earth happened to him :lol: And the confusion in Kyoto when someone Far Away declares and never show up :lol:

jesusin, it seams both you and I was wrong :lol: i.e. we arrive at the similar end results (a few beakers/food/hammers in 10 turns is not significant). I'll correct the errors in my MM...

PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111) updated to 2.1. Thanks everyone for the feedback.

There is just one thing left, and that is if I shall postpone the Asoka-DoW with two turns as Gnejs suggests. I will wait with my play until that is resolved.

FYI from Maintenance Thread:

I'm resigning from CRC team. Best luck!

PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111) updated to 2.1. Thanks everyone for the feedback.

There is just one thing left, and that is if I shall postpone the Asoka-DoW with two turns as Gnejs suggests. I will wait with my play until that is resolved.
Well, there's always the danger that it doesn't work then anymore, or costs philo.
Asoka is also pretty difficult for continuing wars, though probably not impossible (but we will have to give up on KK and JC soon).
I'm again for start war now - look what's the outcome.

I favor starting now as well. EDIT: starting the Asoka's war I mean.

FYI from Maintenance Thread:Yeah, I saw that. That's a bummer. I hope he's too busy and not the team falling apart.

PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111) updated to 2.1. Thanks everyone for the feedback.

There is just one thing left, and that is if I shall postpone the Asoka-DoW with two turns as Gnejs suggests. I will wait with my play until that is resolved.

I like the PPP. Good luck, Erkon.

I prefer simultaneous dows. Good luck, Fred.

I like the PPP. Good luck, Erkon.

I prefer simultaneous dows. Good luck, Fred.
PPP is fine with me also.

Maybe KK makes peace with HC in 2 turns :lol:.
Then we let him enter the Toku massacre and we say:
Good luck, Kublai. :)

I've got a new idea: Play, Erkon! ;) Good luck!

Here we go. Hope I remember everything. God, don't let me screw up this most important TS in the game :please:

T65:
Asoka has swordsmen he don't know where to put. Hmm, perhaps we can tell him? He thus has mined the iron SE of Delhi.
JC has built Prets.
JC goes +5 after gift. Swap dear for marble.
Convert to Hindu
Fred -1 to 7
Was +1 to 2
JC -1 to 4
Asoka +2 to 3 (pleased)
Liza +1 to 1
KK no change
Alex -1 to 3
Toku no change
HC +1 to -12 (die swine!)
Isa -3 to -1 (sucker)
Asoka accepts Drama, drum rolls, and Toku goes -1 to -10, Asoka +1 to 4p
JC accepts Drama, drum rolls, and HC goes -1 to -13, JC +1 to 5p
Fred accepts Drama, drum rolls, and Toku goes -1 to -11, Fred +1 to 8p
Math from Alex for Drama
Liza accepts Drama and goes +2 to 3 (pleased)
Taoism founded in Murkyopolis
KK Sword, spear, archer ESE of Cuzco
Fred 2xArcher, Axe, Spear in Hamburg
HC 8xArcher, Spear, Quechua, Worker in Cuzco
Scout SESE Cuzco
Crusader enroute SW of Kyoto
Grog marching NW of Kyoto

IBT: Colossus BIFAL

T66:
WE
Fred - Toku
Wash - Alex
JC - Wash
Asoka - Alex
Liza - Alex
KK - Wash
Alex - Wash
Isa - Wash
Man, I would like to set Alex against Washington against each others and then just watch the mayhem :lol:
No hands full
Asoka friendly with Washington and HC
KK and Alex friendly with each others
JC FYABTA
Revolt to Slavery and Pacifism
Roads S and SE and E of Cuzco pillaged. Scout has visual coverage of Cuzco.

T67:
No WE changes, no hands.
KK completes Horseback Riding. Looser.
Asoka pleased(7) with washington
Asoka 2xAxe+spear in Tokuland
Hmm, HC has OB with both Washington and Asoka. I may walk the plank...
10 archers in Washington
Silver @ 58%
Fur @ 54%
Research @ 80% to fund army (+4 coins)

T68:
No diplo changes
Asoka has currency (70+2)
JC has calendar
Crusader prevailed. No plank this time.
Chicken Indian axe+spear retreat unharmed? WTF??
JC, Fred and KK move units to the front.
Silver @ 56%
Cuzco still has 8 archers
Roads SW of Cuzco also pillaged
Toku archer next to Hamburg.

T69:
HC made peace with KK.
Isabella completes Parthenon.
Silver 2 @ 55%

Continuation:

PH to Liza for 60 coins. Kascing
It seams like the HC spear died on KK units (they were wounded)
Roads west of Cuzco pillaged
Toku archer on rice 1S Kyoto
Bribed KK with Drama, Phood, Lit for DoW against Toku. PH was not necessary, but I wanted trade plus (from 1 to 3 for a final 8 - pleased)
No hands.
Asoka friendly with Washington again at +8

T70:

Asoka wanted Literature for Mono+110 coins. Forget it. He would not accept at 120 coins. So, is he researching Lit?
Liza wants Literature for Mono. No thank you.
Isa closed border (Annoyed at -3)
HC wants peace for Alpha. Fool! Die swine, die!! Would accept meditation.
Madrid has 6xArcher, 2xSpear, Axe and 2xGalleys. And a Bhuddist missionary.
Toku has 2 archers 1NE of Hamburg
Roading sheap. Aint no need to chop more this turn set. That's for builders.
HC axe on Cuzco cow
BUGGER! We don't have OB with Alex :cry: My scout is trapped... At least he lured three archers out of Cuzco to the SW. Roll out the plank.
Grog-the-Brave/Reckless climbs the hill WNW of Kyoto to flukta the city.
8 archers in total, 2 galleys, one settler and one worker. But the list has:
Archer
Galley
Archer
Settler
Galley
Archers...
Worker

Does that mean the settler and archer is on the galley? Will that archer defend the city?

KK sword, spear, archer closing in
Fred Axe, Spear, Spear, Sword, Axe, Axe, Axe, Spear closing in
Asoka Spear, Axe, Sword, Spear closing in (sort of, stupid AI)

Alex has HBR
Asoka now has Toku as worst enemy
Isa has studied killin us. Does not sound reassuring
Fred dropped one to 7p
JC dropped one to 4p
KK dropped one to 7p
Alex dropped one to 2 Cautious
Isa dropped to -3 Annoyed
I have a bad feeling about this. Contingency plans, anyone?
Asoka GNP is soaring, Liza in second place and JC on third. Washington dropping a bit.
KK production is highest.
No hands.

T71:

Silver 53%, Fur 55%
Fred up one to 8p
Asoka has construction. And Ivory <smile>
KK has switched to max production
Grog pillage road on hill WNW of Kyoto. Way to go, Grog!
7 archers in Kyoto
No hands
I'm glad I can swim. Scout dead.

T72:

GS born in London.
JC has HBR
8 archers in Kyoto
Silver @ 52%
19 units within 4 tiles of Kyoto.
Asoka has cats! At least he states it in dialog. WTG.
BTW, HC has spear and archer SSW of Murkyopolis.
If possible, shall I bribe Alex against HC next turn?

T73:

JC up one to 5p
Asoka up one to 5p
Silver @ 51%

Continuation

Peace with HC for Meditation, up to -7 (annoyed)
No hands.

T74:

Silver @ 50% (still Washington)
Asoka adopts HR
4 Isa archers move NNW of Hamburg. If those were enroute to us, wouldn't Isa have enough on her hands?
Kyoto down to 4 archers
14 units next to Kyoto. May fall IBT?
Both Liza and Asoka has Construction
No hands.
We're in 10th place in GNP.

T75:

Toku gone. Kyoto fallen into the hands of Asoka.
GS born.
Pop 10 reached
Put one turn into axe
Silver did not flip (at 50%), so I'm running 20% culture.
Chop possible this turn into axe? theatre? others?

Dammit - I forgot to check Worst Enemy before I quit :(

Session Turn Log from 1400 BC to 1000 BC:
Turn 65, 1400 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: SGOTM07 converts to Hinduism!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Asoka has declared war on Tokugawa!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Julius Caesar has declared war on Huayna Capac!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Frederick has declared war on Tokugawa!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Taoism has been founded in Murkyopolis!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: The Colossus has been built in a far away land!

Turn 66, 1360 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 66, 1360 BC: SGOTM07 adopts Slavery!
Turn 66, 1360 BC: SGOTM07 adopts Pacifism!
Turn 66, 1360 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 67, 1320 BC: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Murkyopolis. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Moses has been born in a far away land!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Isabella has completed The Parthenon!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Huayna Capac has made peace with Kublai Khan!

Turn 69, 1240 BC: Kublai Khan has declared war on Tokugawa!

Turn 70, 1200 BC: Kublai Khan adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Huayna Capac's Archer (3.30) vs SGOTM07's Scout (1.25)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 70, 1200 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: SGOTM07's Scout is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: SGOTM07's Scout is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Huayna Capac's Archer is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: SGOTM07's Scout is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: SGOTM07's Scout is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 70, 1200 BC: Huayna Capac's Archer has defeated SGOTM07's Scout!

Turn 71, 1160 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in London!

Turn 73, 1080 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Murkyopolis!
Turn 73, 1080 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Washington, Asoka, Elizabeth, Kublai Khan, Alexander, Tokugawa, Huayna Capac
Turn 73, 1080 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Alexander
Turn 73, 1080 BC: Asoka has 150 gold available for trade
Turn 73, 1080 BC: You have made peace with Huayna Capac!
Turn 73, 1080 BC: Asoka adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 74, 1040 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington, Kublai Khan, Alexander
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Murkyopolis has grown to size 10
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Murkyopolis has become unhappy
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Nabu-rimanni has been born in Murkyopolis!
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Kyoto has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!
Turn 74, 1040 BC: The Japanese Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Plato has been born in a far away land!

Turn 75, 1000 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Elizabeth
Event log
Asoka(India) declares war on Tokugawa(Japan)
Julius Caesar(Rome) declares war on Huayna Capac(Inca)
Frederick(Germany) declares war on Tokugawa(Japan)
Tech learned: Mathematics
Tech learned: Philosophy
Taoism founded in Murkyopolis
Taoism has spread: Murkyopolis

IBT:
State Religion Change: SGOTM07(China) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 66/460 (1360 BC) [16-May-2008 15:49:05]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: SGOTM07(China) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'
Civics Change: SGOTM07(China) from 'Paganism' to 'Pacifism'

Turn 67/460 (1320 BC) [16-May-2008 16:58:59]
Murkyopolis finishes: Lighthouse

IBT:
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 68/460 (1280 BC) [16-May-2008 17:38:00]
Tech learned: Priesthood
Murkyopolis grows: 8

IBT:
Huayna Capac(Inca) and Kublai Khan(Mongolia) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 69/460 (1240 BC) [16-May-2008 17:59:28]
Research begun: Code of Laws (9 Turns)
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) declares war on Tokugawa(Japan)

IBT:
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 70/460 (1200 BC) [16-May-2008 21:44:08]

IBT:
While defending in Incan territory at Cuzco, Scout loses to: Incan Archer (2.64/3) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 71/460 (1160 BC) [16-May-2008 22:24:03]
Murkyopolis begins: Theatre (7 turns)
Murkyopolis grows: 9

IBT:

Turn 72/460 (1120 BC) [16-May-2008 22:41:11]

IBT:

Turn 73/460 (1080 BC) [16-May-2008 22:57:38]
SGOTM07(China) and Huayna Capac(Inca) have signed a peace treaty
Murkyopolis finishes: Barracks

IBT:
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 74/460 (1040 BC) [17-May-2008 12:47:52]
Murkyopolis begins: Axeman (5 turns)
Murkyopolis grows: 10
Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) born in Murkyopolis

IBT:
Japanese Empire has been eliminated
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 75/460 (1000 BC) [17-May-2008 13:02:10]

Ok, gotta get the kids from kindergarten.Erkon, got a pre-play-plan for kindergarten today? :lol:

==> Keep on rockin'

T69:
HC made peace with KK.
Isabella completes Parthenon.
Silver 2 @ 55%

Early mid turn break (for discussion of KK bribe, feed the starving children and for beer...)

I can't believe it, KK is not accumulating shared war turns and you are thinking about feeding your children! How can you?!

I hope the beer is for the children or for KK...

Let's send KK against Toku for Drama+Lite, taking care of not getting Archery in the deal.
The alternative is let him rest 10 tunrns before going against HC again. I prefer him against Toku so we have better chances that the right AI will take Kyoto.

Do we know what is in Kyoto?
Do we know where HC Spears have gone?
They are attacking units, they might be on our way to us!!!! Oh, I am scared, should we send Wshington archers against HC? That would rise some WE problems.

God, don't let me screw up this most important TS in the game :please:


Let us all join Erkon in his prayer... :lol:

Early mid turn break (for discussion of KK bribe, feed the starving children and for beer...)

What is to discuss? Set KK on Toku ASAP. Kill em all! :aargh::aargh::aargh:

What keeps Washington from dowing us?

Let's send hinm against HC.

We can get 150g from Asoka for Lite. Please, don't take Mono+110g since that would affect WFTYHBTA.

Don't Trade Lite You Builders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (to Asoka, I mean.) But PH to LIz for 60g is a great deal.

I agree on Drama + Lite to KK for DoW on Asoka Toku.

Send worker to chop the river hill immediately. Then you can determine whether to put the overflow into an axe or the Theatre.

We could gift Izzy Math. We might get lucky and she researches Construction so Asoka or someone will trade it sooner. Or she gets Currency sooner so we can get cash from her.

------------

Looking good. Maybe when we get the sheep hooked up you can trade your kids for some incense. ;)

What keeps Washington from dowing us?

Let's send hinm against HC.

We can get 150g from Asoka for Lite. Please, don't take Mono+110g since that would affect WFTYHBTA.

We can't bribe Wash against HC because 1) he's cautious with us and 2) he's pleased with HC. I think we follow gnejs's earlier advice and sue for peace if spears get through and become a problem.

I would like to gift Wash alpha to get him to pleased (is it enough?) for DOW protection. But I don't know the WE implications of this. Do we have enough in our WE allowance?

I'd rather save lit and use it + CoL to get something nice from Asoka. Like currency construction or another DOW.

I think we should wait a couple turns to see if Asoka/Fred can take Kyoto before bribing KK into that war. Otherwise if it falls early, we'll have lost or ammo to bribe KK against HC once the 10 turns expire.

I agree on Drama + Lite to KK for DoW on Asoka.

jesusin suggested toku. is that what you meant or did you really mean Asoka?

I would like to gift Wash alpha to get him to pleased (is it enough?) for DOW protection. But I don't know the WE implications of this. Do we have enough in our WE allowance?


We probably could afford to gift alpha, but it will probably not be enough for pleased. It would by the way be better to sell it for 10g (counts only 1/3 for WE trading, but nearly the same for attitude). That requires us or him having currency, though.
Anyway why would we want to avoid a DoW (ok, it would be a bit tricky currently :)), but in the long run we would like if he DoWs and we can set all the warmongers on him w/o pissing Asoka.

We probably could afford to gift alpha, but it will probably not be enough for pleased. It would by the way be better to sell it for 10g (counts only 1/3 for WE trading, but nearly the same for attitude). That requires us or him having currency, though.
Anyway why would we want to avoid a DoW (ok, it would be a bit tricky currently :)), but in the long run we would like if he DoWs and we can set all the warmongers on him w/o pissing Asoka.

Will Washington dogpile on us? If not we would have good warning, "we have enough on our hands", and can build some axes and arrange our diplomatic relations for a dogpile on HIM as soon as he dows.

KK on Toku, now please.
No peace for HC unless we lose our capital otherwise.
I would rather pop-rush and lose a few turns development if necessary.

jesusin suggested toku. is that what you meant or did you really mean Asoka?Now that you mention it...:devil: (thanks--corrected)

KK on Toku, now please.


Just curious why the rush? Are you thinking to keep him busy, or trying to actually capture Kyoto after Fred/Asoka have worn down the defenders?

I think we should wait a couple turns to see if Asoka/Fred can take Kyoto before bribing KK into that war. Otherwise if it falls early, we'll have lost or ammo to bribe KK against HC once the 10 turns expire.We should have CoL in 9t (or less).

We should have CoL in 9t (or less).

true. but we can maybe get a more expensive DOW (Izzy?) with more trade bait

Early mid turn break (for discussion of KK bribe, feed the starving children and for beer...)

Should be plenty of beer by now. Are you sure you are not in violation of your own rules? :)

Should be plenty of beer by now. Are you sure you are not in violation of your own rules? :)

Shut up or you're gonna forfeit your next TS! Start playing in five. <hic>

EDIT: T70 updated T71 updated

I have a bad feeling about this. Contingency plans, anyone?


What's your problem. Everything fine in my view.

What's your problem. Everything fine in my view.

Echo that. Get on with it, Erkon. :p

I'm glad I can swim. Scout dead.

For crying out loud! We have had a perfect game so far, and our captain ruins it for us! Mutiny! :mad::nono::gripe::wallbash::aargh::splat: :trouble:

If possible, shall I bribe Alex against HC next turn?
That's too late to save the deer from pillaging, probably :cry:.
And we have no units to distract him, I assume (scout dead - 2nd warrior doing nonsense in Japan).
So that looks like the situation, I really don't like.

HC is next to Murkyopolis, and I think this is important enough to bring in the team. Please take a look at the save in the report (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6826711&postcount=1187). I haven't uploaded to server. Too tired to play anyway now.

EDIT: klarius, Grog is watching Kyoto, and the crusader is monitoring the stream from SW.

HC is next to Murkyopolis, and I think this is important enough to bring in the team. Please take a look at the save in the report (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6826711&postcount=1187). I haven't uploaded to server. Too tired to play anyway now.
Ok, we have to make peace now. :cry:
We could lose the game even if we upgrade the warrior.

What to do with HC-situation?
Trade lit to Asoka and upgrade warrior to axe?
Make peace?
Take a look at the save and give your opinion.

Ask for a gift from Asoka. Upgrade to axe.

Bonus against spear: +50%-25% (melee) + 40% (culture) + 25% (hill) = 90%
Bonus against archer: 40% (culture) + 25% (hill) = 65%

We have fair odds. Though are they enough for a gamble?

Ask for a gift from Asoka. Upgrade to axe.

Don't ask for a gift from Asoka. If you want to upgrade sell lit. Asoka hasn't canceled the incense gift up to know and we have a chance to keep it, if we don't ever ask for another gift.
But I'm not OK with risking the complete game going one defender against 2 units. Sure fair chances, Ok for risking a stack and not achieving the goal, but not for losing the game.
The only way to not make peace with HC now, would be to pop-rush a freakin' unpromoted axe from scratch for 2 pop, so we have 2 defenders. But that's a bit much investment.

Edit:
1 more possibility, not as bad, but still not good.
Trade for archery along with money. We can build an archer in one turn (with starvation and no scientists, so academy gets delayed a turn).

Edit 2:
Another freakin' possibility :).
Trade for money.
Upgrade warrior.
Gift away copper.
Build a warrior, which we can do in 1 turn working 2 scientists.

I'm vehemently adamantly against trading lit to Asoka. We're about to get COnstruction in 5t. FK TRADING LITE TO ASOKA I SAY! I'd rather DoP HC. I'd rather postpone HC till PA. Or 2pop an axe. We're done with the GS in 2 turns and can grow back really fast.

But I think a better solution is a variation on klarius Edit 2:
Cancel incense gift
Trade Asoka sheep for incense (we prefer a trade to get the trade attitude pluspoints sooner)
Ask for money gift (will he really give it after already gifting incense? :confused:)
Upgrade warrior.
Gift away copper.
Build a warrior, which we can do in 1 turn working 2 scientists

EDIT: No, I don't like trading copper, because we're screwed if HC sends back-ups or starts pillaging. Here's my proposal:

Cancel incense gift
Trade Asoka sheep for incense
Ask for money gift
Conditional: If Asoka won't gift at least 10g, then ==> DoP HC <==
Upgrade warrior.
Trade Lite to Liz for Archery + 10g (we can trade it once more if not to Asoka)
Build an archer in 1 turn, postponing GS 1 turn.
Bring Grog home for upgrading. (This is not a spectator sport we're playing.)
.

I'm vehemently adamantly against trading lit to Asoka. We're about to get COnstruction in 5t. FK TRADING LITE TO ASOKA I SAY! I'd rather DoP HC. I'd rather postpone HC till PA. Or 2pop an axe. We're done with the GS in 2 turns and can grow back really fast.

But I think a better solution is a variation on klarius Edit 2:
Cancel incense gift
Trade Asoka sheep for incense (we prefer a trade to get the trade attitude pluspoints sooner)
Ask for money gift (will he really give it after already gifting incense? :confused:)
Upgrade warrior.
Gift away copper.
Build a warrior, which we can do in 1 turn working 2 scientists
Forget your steenkin' construction in 5 turns (BTW how - Asoka will not be friendly by then). We don't have the production to make good use of it now. We still need barracks, theater, Hindu monastery and finally some good units to defend (not useless cats). Construction is early enough with CS.

Forget your steenkin' construction in 5 turns (BTW how - Asoka will not be friendly by then). We don't have the production to make good use of it now. We still need barracks, theater, Hindu monastery and finally some good units to defend (not useless cats). Construction is early enough with CS.How? I'm assuming one more AI will research it sooner than later. 5t may be optimistic, but we have very good reason to be optimistic--people are researching COnstruction earlier than our test games, so the World War is working.

We don't need a monastery. Go pray at a nearby chapel. ;) It saves less than a turn to CS. Barracks are almost done. Theatre is fast. 2 axes are plenty to escort cats.

Finally, we don't need massive defenses. We just need to play smart. Like putting the sentries up where you recommeneded. Our defense will be our outward flowing units. Our best defense is HC written on his tombstone.

Conditional: If Asoka won't gift at least 10g

It's not working that way. You have to ask what you want immediately, he gives it or not. No chance to find out before. A second demand will be rejected for sure.
We don't even know, if he has forgotten my last beg (random 5% per turn). If not, the gift thing doesn't work at all and we have another demand point and for sure lost our free resource.
We should be able to get 60g if he has forgotten. Liz will give her 10g for sure, though that doesn't really help.

All in all, I don't like it.
If we urgently think we need construction we can trade philosophy for it.
CoL and literature may even be closed out by Asoka researching either (not at all unlikely).

Xpost LC :
Monastery is for missionaries to convert KK or Fred. I don't want to go OR in this game. If we need it anyway earlier is better than later.

About defenses:
If we want to satisfy the morbid curiosity of certain players, we need a lot more units, if we also want to have some defense.

Could someone again please remind me why we need to stay in war with HC?

Why not just DoP and continue playing? We will get our 40 war turns anyway, perhaps not with JC, but he's not our preferred partner anyway, is he?

We have 2 points up with Asoka so there is room for redeclare on HC eventually.

The clever scouting around Kyoto tells us that the city will fall rather soon, and the big bummer was the loss of the scout. However, we knew HC would send units to us eventually, and we knew we could not defend against him.

Even if we upgrade/rush/build defenses, we risk HC starting pillaging and we have to DoP anyway.

No reason to panic, the game is on track. I can't see any reason to deviate just to continue the was with HC. It's not worth it, is it?

Is there any difference between a dop and a cf when it comes to redeclaring?

Let's beg for peace. On your knees, Erkon! Now!



Is there any difference between a dop and a cf when it comes to redeclaring?

With dop you have to wait 10 turns before redeclaring. With CF, the damage inflicted in the previous war is not forgotten.

Lets' watch out for Isabel's hands. She has just closed borders and there is a raiding party of 4 archers next to Hamburg.



When I hover over my nose, I can read:

jesusin's attitude towards Erkon Annoyed:
-1 our best defender is out sighseeing
-1 you reduced our unit costs
-1 you didn't put a couple of hammers on an Axe last turn
+100 we care for our team brothers
-100 you didn't share your beer

We don't even know, if he has forgotten my last beg (random 5% per turn). If not, the gift thing doesn't work at allThis answers what was what I was asking. That's why I put it first in the sequence and had the conditional following it.

My point on the 10g was that we need 20g to upgrade the warrior and we'll get 10g from Liz, so we need a minimum of 10g from Asoka or we simply can't upgrade this turn. Period.

If we urgently think we need construction we can trade philosophy for it.Asoka would love to research Liberalism. When jesusin and WastinTime do their HOF deity cultural games they're in a race for LIberalism and sometimes get beat to it, no? I personally think trading Philo is BY FAR the worst of any solutions anyone has proposed. I just don't buy the idea that Asoka won't research Paper>Education. Especially with his commerce more than 2X the nearest AI, his 2 gold mines, 2 incense burners, and his villages already counting turns toward towns.

CoL and literature may even be closed out by Asoka researching either (not at all unlikely).With GLib gone and the free GA still available, I suppose Asoka is far more likely to go for Music than LIte, now he has Drama, if he's picking cultural techs now. But I'm not going to go calclulatee the odds.

Monastery is for missionaries to convert KK or Fred. I don't want to go OR in this game. If we need it anyway earlier is better than later.We can squeeze a monastery in at our leisure. Four cats and two axes now will speed our V Date far more than four missionaries (240:hammers: worth).

If we want to satisfy the morbid curiosity of certain players, we need a lot more units, if we also want to have some defense. You lost me on this one. Whose morbid curiosity?

With dop you have to wait 10 turns before redeclaring. With CF, the damage inflicted in the previous war is not forgotten.

Yeah, I know that. What I meant to ask was: Is there a difference in the relation hit we take if we dow after a cf as compared to a regular dow?

If we upgrade the warrior to axe, he will have a 58.5% chance of prevailing if both HC units attack and he takes no damage from the first attack. That means we have (at best) a 42% chance of losing the game. Not good. Now if we upgrade and HC doesn't attack because the odds aren't good enough, then he starts pillaging, and we have to build/rush a couple more units to chase him off, and then rebuild the improvements and everything. And why? Because we don't want to make peace with HC, because then we might not be able to declare again until the PA, which might mean Cuzco doesn't expand 2x fast enough. Well we could just settle a GA there if we get one and if not, I'm sure we can figure out a way to get more tiles.

So I'm for peace. Plus, we need to get prepared for Izzy.

Could someone again please remind me why we need to stay in war with HC?Why: The negmod with HC's friends for declaring war on HC. Let's look at it:

Pleased/Friendly toward HC: Washington, Asoka, Liz, KK, Toku

One negmod will not make Washington annoyed with us, but will put him 3 pluspoints away from Pleased, so he remains a dogpile threat, but we're secretly happy if he DoWs us, preferably later than sooner.

Asoka will remain Pleased with us, but we vitally need him at Friendly to eliminate the WFYABTA before we complete Liberalism so we don't get bogged down trading Asoka and Liz for the MC>Mach>Calendar>COmpass>Optics sequence. Asoka is currently +5 with us. klarius has his hidden attitude at +2 but that may be only +1 if our rank climbs high enough. Doubtful our rank can rise high enough to make it +0. So we need Asoka at +9 visible attitude for Friendly. That means by T105, to be really optimistic. That's 32 turns from now. That's enough time to get +1 for trading resources. +3 more for common religion. We also have +4 available for good trade relations. OBs should also get us another +1. That's +9 on top of +5. So we also have room to spare with Asoka.

Liz will stay at Pleased with us, so no dogpile threat. In the long run, we need her for trading because her WFYABTA limit is 16 techs, but she will trade even at Annoyed, so no problem.

KK is at +7 with us now and we need him to +10 for PA. His favorite civic is HeredRule, so one more negmod shouldn't be critical.

Toku's middle name is Tombstone.

____________________

Unless I missed something, DoP with HC and DoW HC again later will not interfere with our plans.

Asoka would love to research Liberalism. When jesusin and WastinTime do their HOF deity cultural games they're in a race for LIberalism and sometimes get beat to it, no? I personally think trading Philo is BY FAR the worst of any solutions anyone has proposed. I just don't buy the idea that Asoka won't research Paper>Education. Especially with his commerce more than 2X the nearest AI, his 2 gold mines, 2 incense burners, and his villages already counting turns toward towns.

He will not research paper until he has researched everything else he can, including DR since he is Asoka and loves founding religions. With our academy and fast uni/oxford, we should not get beat to Lib unless we dawdle. That means if we get it before 200AD, we're golden. 200-400AD we're prob ok. later than 400 and yes, we might lose it, but might not. These AI have 2-3 cities vs on a HoF tiny high seas map they have 4-6 and get Lib around 250AD

jesusin's attitude towards Erkon team? AnnoyedI'm glad you raised this topic, because I think this mini-crisis calls for a Debriefing Sesson, with the topic: How can we improve our PPP process?Looking back at Erkon's PPP which was approved by everyone (explicitly or implicitly), I see this:UNIT MOVES
Check around with scout. Avoid the plank. Monitor war progress against Kyoto and Cuzco.In other words, Erkon followed his plans as we agreed. Even though klarius put a good deal of emphasis on HC's threat to us if he got OBs with Washington and where to station sentries, no one queried Erkon about that on his PPP, so imo we're all responsible for that defense failure.

Another aspect of Erkon's PPP is that there was no section for stopping points, which earlier PPPs had. In particular, what was missing was Stopping point: HC getting OBs with Washington. Again, no one queried Erkon about this.

_________________

Possible ways to avoid this in the future:

1. More focus on homeland safety when making or approving PPPs.
2. Standing Order: Monitor enemy approach to our Homeland and stop for discussion immediately when enemy sighted (not 1 or 2 turns later).
3. Have one turn's worth of hammers stored in our best defender for emergency poprushing.
4. Station sentries to get advanced notice of enemy approach.
5. PPPs should include a seciton on Stopping Points.

Unless I missed something, DoP with HC and DoW HC again later will not interfere with our plans.

Sounds fine with me.

I'm glad you raised this topic, because I think this mini-crisis calls for a Debriefing Sesson

I don't see the problem. There was nothing unexpected with this development. (Well, other than Erkon having to walk the plank. :p). Peace with HC when his units where outside Murkyopolis was in the plan.

... There was nothing unexpected with this development. (Well, other than Erkon having to walk the plank. :p). ..

Was that unexpected? Thanks :goodjob:

I don't see the problem. There was nothing unexpected with this development. (Well, other than Erkon having to walk the plank. :p). Peace with HC when his units where outside Murkyopolis was in the plan.It was never in any of my plans, and clearly, not in klarius' either. Having to DoP HC is anything but preferable. It's a make-shift solution to a situation gone wrong.

If we had switched to the 2nd forest chop, as suggested in the mid-turnset break, the barracks would be done, a 4XP axe completed and we would now be discussing how to get it up closer to 10XP, by attacking or defending, and whether we want to build the HE now or keep our gene pool pure a while longer. Gnejs, what ever happened to your principle that it's better attack with warriors now, than axes later, than maces later, etc.?

Not to complain in hindsight, though. What's done is done and I fault the team or no one. My point is that the attitude that we DoP HC when he's outside our borders is not only non-optimum, it's actually counterproductive. But now we're stuck with it. Water over the dam.

EDIT: Come to think of it, DoP with HC was in which plan?DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
No peace with HC. Not now, not ever.

The Captain is grateful for the feedback from the peanut gallery, and appreciates the comments.

I will complete the turn set soon (make peace with HC). I'm soon off to a wedding, so I don't have time to explain why I don't think peace with HC is a big deal.

BTW - jesusin, did I receive a minus from reducing unit cost? :cry: What about the hidden factor between Isabella and Ragnar, did you take that into account when you get Annoyed? :lol:

Save uploaded. GS born. Toku gone :D (Asoka took Kyoto). See the full report here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6826711&postcount=1187).

Excellent job, Erkon! Enjoy the wedding. Is this your second wife or third?

Good job Erkon :goodjob:

I can't see the save - at work again on a Saturday :mad: but I would guess to put the chop into the axe. I would also consider decreasing culture to 10% and turning a sci into a resistor now that we have GS for academy, assuming the math works out better. We should have that silver any turn now anyway.

It seems we need to determine the next target now. I wish we hadn't brought KK into the Toku war since with CoL we might be able to bribe him against Izzy, but oh well. Maybe we still can, or can do something else equally as useful.

Has anybody considered Asoka as a potential PA partner now that he is killing everybody in GNP and has a production city to boot?

Might as well just finish the Theatre this turn with the chop and 20h and keep the slider at 20% till next turn.

Well, Erkon the peace monger makes diplomacy slightly complicated.
But, don't think you can keep klarius the tricky from making devious plans.

Fred will declare on HC now w/o us going to war first (well costs philosophy - so what).
That should cost him the pleased status with Asoka for declaring on a friend.
In 2 turns when we have CoL we declare on Fred and set Asoka and KK on him.

Fred will declare on HC now w/o us going to war first (well costs philosophy - so what).
That should cost him the pleased status with Asoka for declaring on a friend.
In 2 turns when we have CoL we declare on Fred and set Asoka and KK on him.

If we do this then how likely is Fred to trade philo for peace from KK/Asoka 12 turns from now?
EDIT: Not likely b/c he's the only AI with the tech? Or does that not matter?

If we do this then how likely is Fred to trade philo for peace from KK/Asoka 12 turns from now?
EDIT: Not likely b/c he's the only AI with the tech? Or does that not matter?
Yes he will not give out the partial monopoly.
Edit: wrong - he will use monopoly tech.

But, philo is too expensive. Even if he is on the edge of extinction, the others will not have enough war success for so much value in a peace treaty.

Yes he will not give out the partial monopoly.
Edit: wrong - he will use monopoly tech.

But, philo is too expensive. Even if he is on the edge of extinction, the others will not have enough war success for so much value in a peace treaty.

Ok, if that is the case then I support the proposal. But can we do something about Izzy too? For some reason I feel we need to get her invoved as a target sooner rather than later. I just can't put my finger on exactly why.

Resources can help. It's not just turns that count, but turns*number_of_resources. Swapping resources is already 2 resources involved. So it's better for the counter to receive a useless (e.g. health early) resource than gifting. But gifting would count towards the peaceTimeGrantCounter for fair trade.Question: Does Asoka gifting us a resource count against the peaceTimeGrantCounter for fair trade?

Fred will declare on HC now w/o us going to war first (well costs philosophy - so what).
That should cost him the pleased status with Asoka for declaring on a friend.
In 2 turns when we have CoL we declare on Fred and set Asoka and KK on him.What would our goal in this be?

EDIT: Better make sure Asoka has defenders in Kyoto before DoW too, unless your goal is to give Kyoto to Fred.

Save uploaded. GS born. Toku gone :D (Asoka took Kyoto). See the full report here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6826711&postcount=1187).

Well played, Erkon. :goodjob:

Well, Erkon the peace monger makes diplomacy slightly complicated.
But, don't think you can keep klarius the tricky from making devious plans.

Fred will declare on HC now w/o us going to war first (well costs philosophy - so what).
That should cost him the pleased status with Asoka for declaring on a friend.
In 2 turns when we have CoL we declare on Fred and set Asoka and KK on him.

I support the plan from klarius the tricky. Not sure that Asoka + KK is enough for success but we hae the option to bring in Alex later.

Ok, if that is the case then I support the proposal. But can we do something about Izzy too? For some reason I feel we need to get her invoved as a target sooner rather than later. I just can't put my finger on exactly why.

Do you think Izzy would DoW Washington next turn? Or are she only looking for a route to us?

EDIT: Of course she won't. She doesn't have her hands full.

What would our goal in this be?

EDIT: Better make sure Asoka has defenders in Kyoto before DoW too, unless your goal is to give Kyoto to Fred.

Shared war turns, and potentially another city or two for our future PA partner. It looks as if we are going to ally with either Kublai or Asoka.

Question: Does Asoka gifting us a resource count against the peaceTimeGrantCounter for fair trade?
It's counted as a one time gift of 100g.
But it's only on Asokas counter towards us not on our counter towards him. These are independent counters only counting up. So no influence on fair trade.


EDIT: Better make sure Asoka has defenders in Kyoto before DoW too, unless your goal is to give Kyoto to Fred.
Fred's units are on the way to suicide at Cuzco. The trickle of newly produced units will not take Kyoto. And even if, he will not be able to hold it.


I support the plan from klarius the tricky. Not sure that Asoka + KK is enough for success but we hae the option to bring in Alex later.

I'm not so hot on bringing in Alex (though a possibility). Don't forget Fred is also at war with HC. If Cuzco should fall, we could let JC enter.

Domination Tile Count for Asoka

283 tiles needed.

Asoka and we cover 278 tiles, including 3x expansion of Murkyopolis, Delhi, and Bombay and 2x of all other captured cities. As it turns out, Asoka needs only 3x expansion of either Cuzco or Madrid, both giving the needed 5 tiles. I suppose we would want to create a GA to settle in whichever one we he would capture first unless someone has a better idea. Does Madrid having founded a religion or having a Mahabodbahadu give +5:culture: to Asoka after capture?

we hae the option to bring in Alex later.We now have two potential allies who are 50% stronger. That also means we have 1 potential enemy whois 50% stronger. Do we want to make Alex 50% stronger too? If we ever get cats, we won't even need to gangbang anymore.

Does Madrid having founded a religion or having a Mahabodbahadu give +5:culture: to Asoka after capture?

+5:culture: from holy city if it has state religion or when in Free Religion. The latter would be good for Asokas cultural output since Bombay is a triple holy city already. (Do I detect someone drooling in Madrid? :))

We now have two potential allies who are 50% stronger. That also means we have 1 potential enemy whois 50% stronger. Do we want to make Alex 50% stronger too? If we ever get cats, we won't even need to gangbang anymore.

I see no need to bring in Alex now, but it is always nice to have options. Don't you agree?

For instance, if the war stalls and Kublai/Asoka makes peace it would be good to have Alex there to keep the war going.

Also, wars weaken the civs that are in them even if no cities change hands. Just look at Huyana. :lol:

Some thoughts for the coming turnset.


We will get Fish and probably also Clams when our culture expands in 10 turns. It would be nice to be prepared with two workboats that can immediately net both resources. Though we will be almost stagnant at size 11.

If we get Silver next turn the theatre isn't needed until we reach size 11, right? And not even then if we can trade for Monarchy. Better to put the chop into the axe, or perhaps even a Hindu monastery? Converting Kublai to Hindu would help us a lot when it comes to future wars.

We should continue to run 2 scientists all the time in order to get GS3 and GS4 in time for bulbing Education.

+5:culture: from holy city if it has state religion or when in Free Religion. The latter would be good for Asokas cultural output since Bombay is a triple holy city already. (Do I detect someone drooling in Madrid? :))

The :culture: from the Mahadabooty will count no matter what religion he's in. Asoka will also change to FR even if he founds a religion. Just did it in a solo game. Don't know what the trigger is though.

He'll also change to FS if he has enough towns to justify it, but don't know if we will reach that point in this game.

EDIT: I'm against chopping into the theatre. Either axe or monastery (I'm a builder, guess which one I'd pick ;)) And I don't know about the workboats right now. Seems like we've got better use for our hammers at the moment.