Current status
We have built the Hindu Monastery and 2 cats. Paper in 2 turns. Our research is 130 bpt, but Asoka's is probably close 200 bpt, without Bureau!
JC just captured Cuzco, by himself, so evidently he can rumble without any help. He is now at peace.
Alex switched to HeredRule on T89, so starting T99 it will probably be impossible to get KK to DoW him before PA. To get KK to DoW before that, we need for either Alex or KK to become Hindu. For that to happen we need to plant 1 Hindu Miss in Greece or 2 in Mongolia.
We are currently on schedule to send 2 Hindu misses to KK to convert him to Hinduism and then DoW Alex and wipe him off the map.


Decisions we are now facing
Do we want JC to DoW someone? DoW Alex, Izzy, and/or Fred?
EDIT: Are we sure we want to set KK on Alex?

Thanks for the update. I would love to set JC on Alex, especially with Cuzco acting as a magnet for Alex's hordes. But it doesn't seem as if we can afford it right now. Would JC converting to Hindu change that?

This is the order of KK assaults as I see it:
Alex
JC
Isabella
Elizabeth / Washington (any order)
Asoka (perhaps we need to bump Asoka for Kyoto cultural expansion?)Madrid's borders will expand as fast or faster than any other city. Sparta might not even need the first expansion. Either of those two cities might be the best target to capture last. Asoka absolutely needs to get bumped up to right after JC (Cuzco).

Thanks for the update. I would love to set JC on Alex, especially with Cuzco acting as a magnet for Alex's hordes. But it doesn't seem as if we can afford it right now. Would JC converting to Hindu change that?I'm not convinced we want JC to fight anyone anymore. Other than KK of course. Those Praets will eat through plains cities like mice through cheese. I think I agree with jesusin: KK and MW DoW one AI at a time with everyone else at peace. Alex versus Izzy or something like that would be okay.

JC is on the verge of becoming a pain in the arse.

Well, before we do that, I would rather raze Alex cities and defend the free space against everybody until KK settles.

BTW, DoW with Alex now means no peace anymore with him, even if we don't go into a hot war phase now.Maybe we should re-think Alex. Looking at the dot map, I think Berlin is going to expand enough that Sparta won't even need to to get to 10:culture:. If you think we're not going to conquer the continent before PA, then leaving Alex for last is not a bad idea. He keeps the Hindus from hating KK.

EDIT: How about dogpiling the living bejesus out of JC? Alex attacks after KK, so if we play our cards right, we could even leave KK with a single red-lined archer to capture Cuzco.

I'm not convinced we want JC to fight anyone anymore. Other than KK of course. Those Praets will eat through plains cities like mice through cheese. I think I agree with jesusin: KK and MW DoW one AI at a time with everyone else at peace. Alex versus Izzy or something like that would be okay.

JC is on the verge of becoming a pain in the arse.

Alex has been at peace for a long time now, and has probably been busy stacking up melee units. He may also get Longbows very soon. I don't particulary fear JC taking either city before we and KK are in position. What I do fear is a quite strong counterattack from Alex.

EDIT: How about dogpiling the living beejesus out of JC? Alex attacks after KK, so if we play our cards right, we could even leave KK with a single red-lined archer to capture Cuzco.

Yes, this is an interesting alternative. Again, I would like to have Alex and JC go at each others before committing KK.

Madrid's borders will expand as fast or faster than any other city. Sparta might not even need the first expansion. Either of those two cities might be the best target to capture last. Asoka absolutely needs to get bumped up to right after JC (Cuzco).

I'm more concerned about the geometry of KK-land i.e. the cultural pressure on his borders. We want KK to work the best tiles in the FC, yes? We don't want Madrid to steal tiles from Hamburg and the Roman cities.

Once KK gets Maces together with our cat-stacks, the limit will be logistics. He will easily capture one city every five turns. Thus we want his units to move straight to his target cities. Asoka will not be a problem. His next unit (after mace) will be riflemen, which is too far into the future to worry about.

Anyway, lets take this discussion after your turn set. :)

Alex has been at peace for a long time now, and has probably been busy stacking up melee units. He may also get Longbows very soon. I don't particulary fear JC taking either city before we and KK are in position. What I do fear is a quite strong counterattack from Alex.ALex is researching about half our pace. He'll have Feudalism in about 10t at the soonest.

Anyway, lets take this discussion after your turn set. :)I need to know now whether to build misses. If we're not going to DoW Alex, then I'd rather build cats.

ALex is researching about half our pace. He'll have Feudalism in about 10t at the soonest.

I see. And in how many turns would we be attacking him if that is the route to go?

I need to know now whether to build misses. If we're not going to DoW Alex, then I'd rather build cats.

As I see it, there's only three suitable alternatives:


KK vs Alex
KK vs JC
Postpone war

Alex may not be the most important target, but I'm not happy at all to send KK against JC without maces and without our cat-stack. And letting KK be idle does not speed up the domination either (understatement).

I'm not happy to bribe JC with CS. If possible, I think bribing JC against Alex and then bribe KK a few turns later against Alex sounds like the best option.

EDIT: which means we need 2/3 misses right away.

I see. And in how many turns would we be attacking him if that is the route to go?If the first 2 misses succeed, KK DoWs on T97. Except for maybe the 2 cats we've already built, our cats won't be arriving, one by one, till about T103. SO he'll have lbs by then, if he's building Feudalism now or if he trades for it, of course.

Well, I think now, that we should first get the missionaries down to KK, via Alex OB. So no DoW at all for the next 5-6 turns (and don't delay - we might lose the OB prematurely).
Once the missionaries are through let JC fight Alex (and I think still also Isa).

Then think about KK DoWing at once, 1-2 turns delayed. Alex only or Alex and JC (if we see machinery at least on the horizon).

I think you shouldn't overestimate JC's capability to fight several targets at the same time. He took ages to get a decent stack to Cuzco, which was only defended by archers then. Madrid is not on a hill, but has 60% culture defense. And Izzy is bragging all the time about her axes.

Alex should have a lot more units in the region than JC. JC has the better units. That should tie both up in the north.

(and don't delay - we might lose the OB prematurely). DOn't delay what? I wouldn't want to sign OBs with Alex until the first missionary arrives.

You weren't planning for us to DoW Alex before siccing JC on him, were you?

Okay. Looks like we're fairly certain we want to go ahead and DoW Alex. In fact, we still have till FiveAces turnset to decide for sure. In any case, I'll build 3 missionaries first and then my turnset will be about over.

Okay, we can discuss it more in the morning. I'll tomorrow morning or evening, depending on when we decide.

DOn't delay what?
Just the misionaries any further. :) Ok, you did already consent to that.

The time we can DoW Alex depends on the missionaries through his land (one can be set up to teleport). Now that I (and maybe some others also) want to send in JC first, I want to have the DoW ASAP. KK joining in can still be as late as possible, but we will not get missionaries through at all, if at war with Alex. He has lots of archers running around Hamburg and will send stuff to Cuzco and/or to Antium via Mongolia.

Thanks, LC, it sure is helping.

Now, what is a living bejesus?

Now, what is a living bejesus?Definition number two (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=bejesus) is the one I was using. :) Used only in casual conversation. In other words, a whole lot of dogpiling.

Reviewing our worker turns

EDIT: Okay, your mind is made up. Thanks. We build the forge which gets the uni done with 1 chop and a 3poprush. Now all you have to do is make sure we're at pop14 by T100, since I'm leaving the kitchen pantry bare.

I have us completing Educ on T99 (maybe T100 by a few beakers). If our workers complete the silver mine, quarry the stone and 1chop HE to get it in 1 turn, then the soonest they can 2chop univ and 1chop Oxford to get them both done in 1 turn would complete the university on T103, Oxford on T104. In other words, we would start building the university 3 turns after we got Educ. In the meantime, we could build cats (or chokos), of course, 1 per turn. This is the Warmonger's Solution.

If we decide to sacrifice a cat and build HE in 2 turns, without a chop, then our workers can complete the university on T101, Oxford on T102. This is the Steenkin' Builder's Solution.

;)

And yes, it matters now, as always. I need to know now, so decide, FiveAces. :)

Reviewing our worker turns

I have us completing Educ on T99 (maybe T100 by a few beakers). If our workers complete the silver mine, quarry the stone and 1chop HE to get it in 1 turn, then the soonest they can 2chop univ and 1chop Oxford to get them both done in 1 turn would complete the university on T103, Oxford on T104. In other words, we would start building the university 3 turns after we got Educ. In the meantime, we could build cats (or chokos), of course, 1 per turn. This is the Warmonger's Solution.

If we decide to sacrifice a cat and build HE in 2 turns, without a chop, then our workers can complete the university on T101, Oxford on T102. This is the Steenkin' Builder's Solution.

;)

And yes, it matters now, as always. I need to know now, so decide, FiveAces. :)
Well, how about (not exactly calculated):
after x missionaries and cats
axe-forge (chop and rush) - HE (completes with just the overflow) ...

Is the 4 gpp from earlier Oxford critical for popping the last GP in time for sci method? EDIT: 8 total gpp for 2 turns.

Is the 4 gpp from earlier Oxford critical for popping the last GP in time for sci method? EDIT: 8 total gpp for 2 turns.
Well, which one is the last? And do we build NE and when?
I'm not sure that still bulbing more than 1 GS is really the fastest way to victory.
Even if we get a "useless" (to late for sci method) GS, we can still build an academy for our PA partner's culture expansion, which may speed up victory more than the saved research turns.
So I'm currently also thinking about going free religion soon after lib (and maybe back to pacifism and caste in the very end for GAs).

Well, how about (not exactly calculated):
after x missionaries and cats
axe-forge (chop and rush) - HE (completes with just the overflow) ...The problem is not getting the hammers, it's getting 4 forests chopped. We can chop three forests, mine silver and quarry stone by T100/101, and chop 4 forests by T102/103.

The problem is not getting the hammers, it's getting 4 forests chopped. We can chop three forests, mine silver and quarry stone by T100/101, and chop 4 forests by T102/103.
Well, why do you need 2 forests on uni. :whipped:

I'm not sure that still bulbing more than 1 GS is really the fastest way to victory.

Even if we get a "useless" (to late for sci method) GS, we can still build an academy for our PA partner's culture expansion, which may speed up victory more than the saved research turns.

So I'm currently also thinking about going free religion soon after lib (and maybe back to pacifism and caste in the very end for GAs).:lol: Hadn't thought of that academy. :goodjob:

I've been thinking the same way: that we bulb Edu and have 2 GAs for Kyoto and Cuzco. Even better if we can also have a GS and and GA without undue concern.

LC the Stubborn is not sure he likes 'building' Free Speech and 're-building' Pacifism instead of 2 chokos, though. :lol: The 10% research bonus will get us something like 7-8bpt, so the only benefit may be if we can't afford our units.

Well, why do you need 2 forests on uni. :whipped:I like your selective use of question marks. ;)

I knew I should have recalculated the uni/Oxford sequence for the forge before opening my big trap. I'm glad there's at least one non-girlie use for that food-sucking forge. :p

Well, why do you need 2 forests on uni. :whipped:

How much pop do you want to whip towards uni? don't you need 3 pop if you only have 1 chop sunk into it? EDIT: nevermind I'm a little confused now without the game in front of me. but to answer your question LC, I think I prefer the more warmongerish solution, especially if klarius found a way to speed up Oxford from your original proposal.

Okay, guys, I think this works: EDITED:

Build Wkr1 Wkr2 Trade Other
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T91 H-miss quarry(6) mine(2) 10XP axe
T92 H-miss quarry(5) mine(1) HE enabled
T93 H-miss mv W pre-chp(3) deer (Asoka)
T94 axe chop(3) quarry(4)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T95 forge chop(2) quarry(3) MC (Liz)
T96 HE chop(1) quarry(2) cancel marble; copper=>cows+gold(JC) Cuzco expands
T97 cat pre-chp(2) quarry(1)
T98 cat mv foresthill mv E of iron
T99 cat chop(3) chop(3) Education
T100 cat chop(2) chop(2)
T101 univ chop(1) chop(1) whip 3 before 2nd chop!!!!
T102 Oxford to iron chop(1)
Notice any mistakes, improvements?

Of course, we might BUILD a harbor instead of one of the cats. (Who needs cats anyway...? :crazyeye:)

How much pop do you want to whip towards uni? don't you need 3 pop if you only have 1 chop sunk into it? EDIT: nevermind I'm a little confused now without the game in front of me. but to answer your question LC, I think I prefer the more warmongerish solution, especially if klarius found a way to speed up Oxford from your original proposal.I edited my post with the question for you, as per klarius' clarification. The question is no longer relevant.

With the forge, the chop gets 52h (51?) and each poprush gets 52, so yeah, it's 1chop + 3poprush > 200h. Shouldn't be a problem, you'll just have to grow to pop14 by T100.

Well, with forge and HE we can build a cat per turn @ size 9, while growing nicely and still work every strong tile (no mined hills - that's not a strong tile if you have enough hammers).
All pop above that can be used, if it gets us something urgent fast.

LC - is the "build" the thing that is finished at the start of the turn or the thing that is selected during the turn?

LC - is the "build" the thing that is finished at the start of the turn or the thing that is selected during the turn?

Selected .

With the forge, the chop gets 52h (51?).

There is no problem with truncation on normal speed. It's just floor(30*1.75).
It's the 1.5 epic factor on top, which throws some calculations of.

I'm confused about t96. If I trade marble to JC for cows during the turn, I won't get the 100% bonus on HE at the end when the hammers are "earned" Is that what you meant or does the trade need to go to t97?

EDIT: Please also put whip 3 citizens in other on the uni turn so's I don't forget when making my PPP.

Well, with forge and HE we can build a cat per turn @ size 9, while growing nicely and still work every strong tile (no mined hills - that's not a strong tile if you have enough hammers).
All pop above that can be used, if it gets us something urgent fast.The same is true without the forge, though. Here's my analysis.

For cats, the forge gains us 1h overflow at a cost of 1:yuck:.
w/o forge: 18h*2.5=45h => 1 cat + 2h
with forge: 18h*2.75=49h -> 1 cat + 3h (-1f if we're short on :health:)

For chokos, the forge brings a tangible benefit.
w/o forge: 24h*2.5=60h => 1 choko
with forge: 22h*2.75=60h => 1 choko
and the difference between 22h and 24h is huge. For 22h weonly need to work 1 mine, whereas for 24h we're forced to work 2 mine tiles every other turn. So the forge allows us to work a sci (or whatever) twice as much as without the forge.

For HE, the forge saves us a paltry 5h, but as you have pointed out, the forge enables us to 3pop/1chop the university. In my book, that's a power move considering our current scarcity of worker turns. :goodjob:

Btw, I mixed up commerce and beakers on Asoka's commerce graph, so I think his reserach is actually roughly comparable to ours now, maybe a little faster. In any case, I expect him to finish Machinery before we complete Educ, but surely we wont give him Educ for Machinery till we're almost done with Liberlism, right?

We can give him edu safely when we have 5-6 turns left on Liberalism, IMO. But if nobody else has machinery quickly, we need to check his progress by watching for when his gold topoff starts dropping.

Btw, I mixed up commerce and beakers on Asoka's commerce graph, so I think his reserach is actually roughly comparable to ours now, maybe a little faster. In any case, I expect him to finish Machinery before we complete Educ, but surely we wont give him Educ for Machinery till we're almost done with Liberlism, right?
Well, that's the question :). Machinery would be damn nice to have. There is a lot of other stuff he could still research and our research with Oxford should be pretty impressive. We could just gamble.
Still we don't want to speed him up too much if not necessary, so I would say we wait till T105. We might get the chance to get it from Liz then. If not I would do Asoka.

Regarding the question of GS.

We will get the next GS on T118 if Oxford is completed on T104 or earlier. Incidentally, T118 will also be the turn when we have researched both Liberalism and Printing Press. Having also taken Astronomy as the free tech we can immediately bulb our scientist on SciMet. Nice timing.

But can we even double-bulb SciMet? Let us assume that the HE allows us to run 2 additional scientists and that we build the NE at some time. When all this is in place we get 16 base gpp (4*3+2(Glib)+1(HE)+1(NE)). Multiply by 3 for NE+Pacifism = 48 gpp/t. GP#5 will cost 500 gpp or 10.5 turns. As SciMet will cost 2 bulbs+2 turns of research it is enough if we complete NE and start running the two scientists by T109. Would this be possible?

The benefit would be an additional 6 turns saving on the PA date, bringing it to T135 latest.

I'm confused about t96. If I trade marble to JC for cows during the turn, I won't get the 100% bonus on HE at the end when the hammers are "earned" Is that what you meant or does the trade need to go to t97?

EDIT: Please also put whip 3 citizens in other on the uni turn so's I don't forget when making my PPP.Sorry on teh marble confusion. That was my abbreviation for:

cancel the marble for gold deal and
trade our copper for cows plus gold

EDIT: I have now clarified it:

cancel marble; copper=>cows+gold(JC)

The key to remember is that klarius thinks we'll get both gold and cows for the copper, so we don't want to cancel marble till CUzco expands, otherwise he might trade the gold to someone else while we're waiting for hs cows.

But can we even double-bulb SciMet?I studied this a while back. Pretty sure we can even single-bulb both PP and SciMeth on time. But as klarius mentioned a few posts back, that's probalby not getting us our fastest finish.

It all boils down to how much time elapses between capturing Cuzco and Kyoto and us getting our PA. Since it looks like we're not going to get those two very soon, we'll probalby win by domination when they get to 100:culture:. It's speculation right now, but I'm fairly sure our fastest finish will require us adding culture to those two cities, either by settling two GAs or as klarius says, by building an Academy or two if we get stuck with a GS or two.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. The question here is, can we (and do we want to) get more than 2 GPs after the EDUC GS? Because, by the argument above, we want to save 2 for settling in Cuzco and Kyoto.

Well also ask if there's any way we can enable 2 cities settled in place of one by razing say Kyoto ourselves. Even if KK doesn't have a settler ready, maybe Izzy runs one of hers (she's still got one of her original 2, right?) up there, settles a couple tiles off the current location enabling KK to settle further north. I can't see the map right now so it might not fit, but it's probably faster if it works than 2x expanding kyoto.

I studied this a while back. Pretty sure we can even single-bulb both PP and SciMeth on time. But as klarius mentioned a few posts back, that's probalby not getting us our fastest finish.

It all boils down to how much time elapses between capturing Cuzco and Kyoto and us getting our PA. Since it looks like we're not going to get those two very soon, we'll probalby win by domination when they get to 100:culture:. It's speculation right now, but I'm fairly sure our fastest finish will require us adding culture to those two cities, either by settling two GAs or as klarius says, by building an Academy or two if we get stuck with a GS or two.

Does that make sense?

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. The question here is, can we (and do we want to) get more than 2 GPs after the EDUC GS? Because, by the argument above, we want to save 2 for settling in Cuzco and Kyoto.


Yes, it makes sense. Though if we go into artist spamming mode we could in principle run 5 artists + GT+NE+HE+Ox+Glib(scientists obsoleted) = 21 gpp/t * 300% = 63 gpp/t. The difference between having spawned 4 or 5 GP prior to that is only 1.6 turn (100 gpp divided by 63 gpp/t = 1.59t).

Yes, it makes sense. Though if we go into artist spamming mode we could in principle run 5 artists + GT+NE+HE+Ox+Glib(scientists obsoleted) = 21 gpp/t * 300% = 63 gpp/t. The difference between having spawned 4 or 5 GP prior to that is only 1.6 turn (100 gpp divided by 63 gpp/t = 1.59t).That's one way to look at it, isn't it? I was thinking in terms of GP#6 taking 600/63= 10 turns. I'm all for it, if we can squeeze it in while building 1 choko/turn.

Okay!

I have updated my PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6856995&postcount=1614)to v 2.1

Please take a look. I think I should play tonight barring any objections.

One last question is on map selling. IS there a best way to maximize gold with map selling? Should I sell Asoka our map on T93 and then trade him Paper next turn to maybe get more cash from him?

Is it worth trading our map for whatever we can get from it with everybody before we give Asoka paper?

EDIT: crosspost

One last question is on map selling. IS there a best way to maximize gold with map selling? Should I sell Asoka our map on T93 and then trade him Paper next turn to maybe get more cash from him?
In this setup map isn't worth anything, probably. Just trade maps with everybody selling his map, so that we don't fall back in knowledge of new improvements.

To the PPP. I wouldn't trade MC before needed.
There is still the odd chance that you get it from somebody else.

T93 Sell maps to highest bidders?
T93 Trade Asoka Paper for MC + gold[/INDENT]DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS

WM? Yes, why not, just check WEne before.
Paper for MC? Hmmm, can't we wait a few turns? Asoka could get a GS or 2 just then... we don't want him having Educ before us.


Ready to go on regarding anything else.

Fyi. I have not had internet at home the past week - the router I had been accessing seems to have been disconnected from the Internet. Guess my bandwidth usage became apparent :mischief:. I'm in the process of getting a legit connection (the things I do for you guys :) ) but that is not scheduled until Tuesday.

So that leaves the following options:

1) Get the save Sat, review Sat, post PPP Sun, play Mon without internet, stop if something interesting happens, play as normal from Tues onwards
2) Same as 1 but wait until Tues to play
3) swap with jesusin who can (I assume) get the save tomorrow

In case 1 or 2 my turnset will be finished Wednesday latest. Is that ok or too much of a delay and I should swap?

WM? Yes, why not, just check WEne before.
Paper for MC? Hmmm, can't we wait a few turns? Asoka could get a GS or 2 just then... we don't want him having Educ before us.


But he will not bulb a GS on edu. Only "first" techs, religion, tech or GP for the first, are bulbed immediately.
GS will build academies if that's not the case.
If that's not possible they will sit around for 20 turns waiting for a buddy to get a GA (or a second GS is born).
Only after this they will bulb a non "first" tech.

In this setup map isn't worth anything, probably. Just trade maps with everybody selling his map, so that we don't fall back in knowledge of new improvements.

I don't think that's correct - map value has something to do with the differences between your map and the AI map. So the Buddist civs who haven't had OB's with our hindu border civs have black tiles all around Murky. That should be worth some gold.

WM? Yes, why not, just check WEne before.What do you mean by 'WEne'? :confused:

In case 1 or 2 my turnset will be finished Wednesday latest. Is that ok or too much of a delay and I should swap?I don't blame you for wanting to swap after all the cats I built... :gripe:

Wednesday is fine by me. Maybe our discussion will be done by Tuesday... :dunno:

PPP looking good. But there is nothing mentioned about JC. Are we not going to do anything with him until FiveAces' turnset? No religion change, no dow bribe?

PPP looking good. But there is nothing mentioned about JC. Are we not going to do anything with him until FiveAces' turnset? No religion change, no dow bribe?
I was basing it on this:
Well, I think now, that we should first get the missionaries down to KK, via Alex OB. So no DoW at all for the next 5-6 turns (and don't delay - we might lose the OB prematurely).
Once the missionaries are through let JC fight Alex (and I think still also Isa).
We actually have a really tight window to get the misses there before Alex gets another +1 from HeredRule--T99. Have to go through ALex's land .

Ok, fine. Good luck!

We actually have a really tight window to get the misses there before Alex gets another +1 from HeredRule--T99. Have to go through ALex's land .
There is also another point. Maybe we can afford to not convert JC by then (e.g having also MC).
If he doesn't convert back to Buddha (with such a small bud population, he may not think it worth it), we get another problem: Asoka will go pleased with him.
So to stay flexible, it would be better if he stays in his religion. Maybe we have even boldly traded for machinery on T100 ;).

But he will not bulb a GS on edu. Only "first" techs, religion, tech or GP for the first, are bulbed immediately.
GS will build academies if that's not the case.
If that's not possible they will sit around for 20 turns waiting for a buddy to get a GA (or a second GS is born).
Only after this they will bulb a non "first" tech.

Wow, thank you!

What do you mean by 'WEne'? :confused:

I meant Worst Enemy. Trying to avoid confusions with elephants... :(

Fyi. I have not had internet at home the past week - the router I had been accessing seems to have been disconnected from the Internet. Guess my bandwidth usage became apparent :mischief:. I'm in the process of getting a legit connection (the things I do for you guys :) ) but that is not scheduled until Tuesday.

So that leaves the following options:

1) Get the save Sat, review Sat, post PPP Sun, play Mon without internet, stop if something interesting happens, play as normal from Tues onwards
2) Same as 1 but wait until Tues to play
3) swap with jesusin who can (I assume) get the save tomorrow

In case 1 or 2 my turnset will be finished Wednesday latest. Is that ok or too much of a delay and I should swap?

I don't think that's too much delay. If we swap turns, I probably won't have ended discussions on my PPP by Wednesday!

LC, do you have a link to your post with the dotmap and culture for a Kublai domination? I can't find it...

LC, do you have a link to your post with the dotmap and culture for a Kublai domination? I can't find it...Here are three maps for JC. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6786347&postcount=551) THe North and central maps are also valid for KK. Note that Tile #4 should be included in our cultural boundaries, not outside of them.

Here is the Southern map for KK (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6786935&postcount=560).

BY my current reckoning, even though KK will get 2X expansion from Berlin, we'll still need both Cuzco and Kyoto. BUt we can raze Liz's city to our west.

Here are three maps for JC. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6786347&postcount=551) THe North and central maps are also valid for KK. Note that Tile #4 should be included in our cultural boundaries, not outside of them.

Here is the Southern map for KK (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6786935&postcount=560).

BY my current reckoning, even though KK will get 2X expansion from Berlin, we'll still need both Cuzco and Kyoto. BUt we can raze Liz's city to our west.

Thanks! So we need 13 tiles of those little white tiles, right?

Have you figured in the possibility to get a third culture expansion from Bombay? Triple holy and KK in Free Religion will give 17 culture per turn.


Edit: Let me try it myself.

Cuzco: 9,10,13,14,15,16,17

Berlin: 16,17,18,19,20

Bombay: 6,10,12

Murkyopolis: 4

Total: 4,6,9,10,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20 = 13 tiles

Edit#2: If this is enough then Kyoto is not a priority.

Thanks! So we need 13 tiles of those little white tiles, right?

Have you figured in the possibility to get a third culture expansion from Bombay? Triple holy and KK in Free Religion will give 17 culture per turn.No I hadn't. That would be 30 6 turns, right? I suppose we have about 35 turns for PP, SciMeth and Communism, without any bulbing. I guess that would do it too.

Edit: That's much better.

No I hadn't. That would be 30 turns, right? I suppose we have about 35 turns for PP, SciMeth and Communism, without any bulbing. I guess that would do it too.

Good to have options. DO you think we might capture Bombay before Kyoto? Because Kyoto (or any city) needs only 34 turns.

No, I am talking of the first culture expansion outside the fat cross. That is 100 culture, right? For Bombay that would mean 6 turns after coming out of revolt...

No, I am talking of the first culture expansion outside the fat cross. That is 100 culture, right? For Bombay that would mean 6 turns after coming out of revolt...That's how I have it drawn. For BOmbay to get 6, 10, and 12 it needs 5100:culture:.

That's how I have it drawn. For BOmbay to get 6, 10, and 12 it needs 500:culture:.

Please check again then. Culture expansions happen at 1,10,100,500 culture, right? At 500 the culture reaches 4 tiles from the city as is the case for Murkyopolis right now. 6,10,12 are all 3 tiles away from Bombay...

You're right. I'm mixing it up. Excellent!!! Very good idea, Gnejs. Bravo!

So then the limiting factor is either a) capturing the final city on the continent + revolt + 4-5 turns for culture expansion or b) getting Cuzco to 100:culture:.

Assuming that we are able to spawn a GP for that purpose then getting Cuzco to 100:culture: shouldn't be much of a challenge. It seems to me that a) is much more critical. We could even wait a while with Cuzco if we later farm a GA specifically for settling there (or construct an Academy if we get a GS).

Have you figured in the possibility to get a third culture expansion from Bombay? Triple holy and KK in Free Religion will give 17 culture per turn.


Don't get too carried away. We don't know if KK will run free religion. Once in PA, there's no way to influence his civics. Before... only klarius knows for sure.

Once in PA, there's no way to influence his civics.

Really? I didn't know that. :eek:

Edit: Though Bombay will still generate 8 culture per turn if Kublai is in any of the three religions founded there. Hinduism would be the most likely one, but maybe we need him in Buddhism for Madrid expansion first?

Don't get too carried away. We don't know if KK will run free religion. Once in PA, there's no way to influence his civics. Before... only klarius knows for sure.Even if for only 5 turns, that's almost it. Might be a good reason to postpone PA if needed.

Captain Erkon has another hour or so to speak up or suck it up... :mischief:

So then the limiting factor is either a) capturing the final city on the continent + revolt + 4-5 turns for culture expansion or b) getting Cuzco to 100:culture:.

Assuming that we are able to spawn a GP for that purpose then getting Cuzco to 100:culture: shouldn't be much of a challenge. It seems to me that a) is much more critical. We could even wait a while with Cuzco if we later farm a GA specifically for settling there (or construct an Academy if we get a GS).It definitely increases our flexibility, especially if we only need one GP for settling.

I agree on a) considering our rate of 2 cats per turnset... :crazyeye:. I was thinking this was my last turnset. I hope so, but we'll see.

Captain Erkon has another hour or so to speak up or suck it up... :mischief:

How sweet of you! Pretending to care about my opinion. Do you want another 2 turns? Or do you want me to present my ideas so that you can ignore them?? :lol:

Go ahead. I think you are well prepare to execute the most important turn set so far!!!

It seems like every turnset is the most important one so far ;) My router is back online, so there will be no issue with my play (as long as it continues, of course) Good luck LC!

It seems like every turnset is the most important one so far ;) My router is back online, so there will be no issue with my play (as long as it continues, of course) Good luck LC!

FiveAces, I'm just teasing with jesusin :D In the last SGOTM I used the phrase to emphasize that players should not rush their play. However, I put unnessesary pressure on my team mates, something jesusin was polite enough to point out (thanks jesusin :goodjob:). Now I use it as a joke. Perhaps not very funny, but that's me :lol:

Don't feel rushed to play. If you want to swap with jesusin, that's ok. If you want to wait, that's ok as well. No rush, since your turn set will probably be the most important in the game. Oops, I did it again! Sorry jesusin!

FiveAces, I'm just teasing with jesusin :D In the last SGOTM I used the phrase to emphasize that players should not rush their play. However, I put unnessesary pressure on my team mates, something jesusin was polite enough to point out (thanks jesusin :goodjob:). Now I use it as a joke. Perhaps not very funny, but that's me :lol:

Don't feel rushed to play. If you want to swap with jesusin, that's ok. If you want to wait, that's ok as well. No rush, since your turn set will probably be the most important in the game. Oops, I did it again! Sorry jesusin!

No worries! I'll play next turnset as per roster - I know what needs to be done (well assuming the sh!t doesn't hit the fan as LC would say), and you guys can wait a day or two longer if need be ;)

Perhaps this has been spotted already, but Lizzies worker is building a windmill. Ergo, she has Machinery.

Good eyes, Gnejs!

Continuing.... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6863757&postcount=1686)

uh...sorry guys...can't play till tomorrow AM...in violation of the rules...no playing when idiots are distracting you...be back in the morning... :)

LC - good luck with the axes! Else it will be crowded on the plank :lol:

uh...sorry guys...can't play till tomorrow AM...in violation of the rules...no playing when idiots are distracting you...be back in the morning... :)

Erkon, do you think he means us? :lol:

Erkon, do you think he means us? :lol:

Could be. Quite rude if you ask me, although LC is known to be blunt. He's probably scared stiff that he will screw up the axe attack and delay HE for 10 turns. It would be a pity if we miss the gold because of that...

:lol:

Erkon, do you think he means us? :lol:

Could be. Quite rude if you ask me, although LC is known to be blunt. He's probably scared stiff that he will screw up the axe attack and delay HE for 10 turns. It would be a pity if we miss the gold because of that...

:lol:Luckily, I don't find all idiots distracting. Otherwise waiting till morning would be futile. :D

Okay. No distracting idiots anywhere. Continuing.... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6863757&postcount=1686) for real this time.

Medic axe attacks Hamburg, wins of course, despite all counter-intention from the peanut gallery and now has 10/10XP at 0.4/5HP. Now I'm in a quandary. My instincts tell me to take out his archer at 86.3% odds, but then I'm fairly defenseless to protect my 1 or 2 10XP axes. Hmm...

LC, don't attack. It's not worth the risk.

EDIT: Great news BTW! :goodjob:

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. Of course, klarius probably would say they won't attack but if I lose this axe and Fred makes a new archer, it's all over.

Medic axe attacks Hamburg, wins of course, despite all counter-intention from the peanut gallery and now has 10/10XP at 0.4/5HP. Now I'm in a quandary. My instincts tell me to take out his archer at 86.3% odds, but then I'm fairly defenseless to protect my 1 or 2 10XP axes. Hmm...
Kill! There will be no counter attack.

Play it safe, don't attack. We have the 10XP we needed.

What's the benefit of weakening Hamburg now? Who would take the city?

attack if it will help kk.

Can make the following map selling deals:
Asoka 10g
KK 30g
Liz 20g
Alex 10g (won't trade maps)
JC 40g (won't trade maps)
Izzy 20g (won't trade maps)
W has no gold
I think I should just take the money and run.

Can make the following map selling deals:
Asoka 10g
KK 30g
Liz 20g
Alex 10g (won't trade maps)
JC 40g (won't trade maps)
Izzy 20g (won't trade maps)
W has no gold
I think I should just take the money and run.
I would rather have Asoka's map than 10g, of he gives it.

WTG LC!!!

Btw, does a PA enable our Medics to heal Kublai's units? If so then Medic II would have been very nice.

WTG LC!!!

Btw, does a PA enable our Medics to heal Kublai's units? If so then Medic II would have been very nice.I thought about that, but we can do that later if we want.

I would rather have Asoka's map than 10g, of he gives it.Okay.

Listen guys:

Alex has enough on his hands!!! but will still sign OBs with us...

Okay.

Alex has enough on his hands!!! but will still sign OBs with us...
That doesn't mean much. It will be at least 5 turns until he declares on somebody. And the chances that it would be us are slim (or not existent depending on power relative to Liz and Washington).

Done. Uploaded. Everything going smoothly. Alex and FiveAces have their hands full. ;)

Notes for FiveAces: You have a full slate of actions to do this turn before hitting <enter>, involving:
3 H-misses, 2 wounded axes, 2 cats, 2 workers, new axe in city which is currently keeping 13th pop happy, city build, city MM (assigning 13th pop), tech trading, bulbing Education

Done. Uploaded. Everything going smoothly. Alex and FiveAces have their hands full. ;)

Excellent play, LC! :goodjob:

It would be great if Alex declared on someone, would it not?

It would be great if Alex declared on someone, would it not?
The question is who and what type of warplan is this.
What I see possible, is dog pile on us or Asoka (? if he has the power for that).
If it's us he will just keep his hands full until he can reach us, so no use to wait.
If it's Asoka he will declare as soon as he has a unit ready to enter his land.
It can be max war against Liz or Washington, if the power ratio is right. Or max war against us if nobody else has low enough power.
Max war means at least 10 turns preparation.

Limited war is only possible if somebody is a land target for him by now. (?)

Outstanding play, LC!

klarius, can you work your magic and tell us who Alex will attack and when? Pleaaaaseee... ;)

Edit: crossposted :)

Alex definitely has no land targets with 8 common border tiles. The turn before he had his hands full he was willing to DoW Izz, W, and Fred. For the rest he wouldhave nothing to gain. He has four archers that have been hanging around in Fred's land, N of Hamburg. I've had a cat going through W and one through Asoka, and the misses going through Alex and I haven't seen any other Alex stacks. Athens has about 10 archers in it.

EDIT: Measuring the power graph
Alex ~= Wasshington
Asoka/ALex= 1.043
Liz/Alex = 1.071
JC/Alex = 1.15
KK/Alex = 1.182

Timeline:
T92 Alex power fractionally more than W, willing to DoW W
T93 W power fractionally more than Alex, Alex hands full
T94 W power about 3% more than Alex
T95 W power about 5% more than ALex

Any chance Alex could change his target if the power balance shifts enough?

Team Power Graphs
XTeam, the bunch of warmongers, has a soaring power graph. Fifth Element's power is tapering off. FiveAces the Warmonger Turned Busybody ain't taking that kind of crap, so he's going to build HE (8pts), forge (2pts), get Compass (4pts), MC (4pts), and Machinery(8pts), and build 2 cats (6 pts) and 3 choko (15pts) in addition to a harbor, university, and Oxford :lol:. We'll surge into first place in the power graphs, unless of course we kamikazi all our units.

Alex definitely has no land targets with 8 common border tiles. The turn before he had his hands full he was willing to DoW Izz, W, and Fred. For the rest he wouldhave nothing to gain. He has four archers that have been hanging around in Fred's land, N of Hamburg. I've had a cat going through W and one through Asoka, and the misses going through Alex and I haven't seen any other Alex stacks. Athens has about 10 archers in it.

EDIT: Measuring the power graph
Alex ~= Wasshington
Asoka/ALex= 1.043
Liz/Alex = 1.071
JC/Alex = 1.15
KK/Alex = 1.182

Timeline:
T92 Alex power fractionally more than W, willing to DoW W
T93 W power fractionally more than Alex, Alex hands full
T94 W power about 3% more than Alex
T95 W power about 5% more than ALex

Any chance Alex could change his target if the power balance shifts enough?
Well we need more :).
(Alex+Fred)/Asoka >1.5 ?
(Alex+Fred)/KK > 1.5 ? (don't think so)

Max war against Liz or Washington is not possible. Would need MaxWarDistantPowerRatio (70%) for them as they are no land targets.

Limited war also not possible because no land targets.

That leaves max war on us, Fred or Izzy. There is no reason he should prefer Izzy (even if everything else would be equal we come first in sequence).
Fred is unlikely (I think he's pleased), but not impossible (I think - would still have to check the capitalProximity algorithm). Anyway that doesn't help as we think Fred is dead before he would declare.

So if it's not a dog pile on Asoka (which is unlikely because he probably would have already declared), it's most probably us. That would be terribly nice of him, but he will not declare as long as his units cannot enter our land.

Conclusion: Just ignore his hands and proceed according to plan.

Edit:
War plans don't change after they are set. They only can get deleted if another war comes up, or 20 turns passed w/o the possibility to attack.

Team Power Graphs
XTeam, the bunch of warmongers, has a soaring power graph.
That looks more like the peace mongers store a lot of units instead of using them. Maybe to gift after PA.

Alex definitely has no land targets with 8 common border tiles.
Is this really sure for Liz ?
Did you know the culture boundaries - especially has York it's second expansion and taken a few tiles from Cuzco.
Culture boundaries can get pretty jagged, greatly increesing the number of bordering tiles.

Is this really sure for Liz ?
Did you know the culture boundaries - especially has York it's second expansion and taken a few tiles from Cuzco.
Culture boundaries can get pretty jagged, greatly increesing the number of bordering tiles.Yes. I sent the second miss straight to the coast. He can come back SE SE this turn and we'll know the precise situation, but Liz and Alex have 6 definite and possibly 1 more max.

Yes. I sent the second miss straight to the coast. He can come back SE SE this turn and we'll know the precise situation, but Liz and Alex have 6 definite and possibly 1 more max.
It's too late anyway, it's the situation when he got his hands full that counts.

It's too late anyway, it's the situation when he got his hands full that counts.There's no way it was more than 7 tiles.

Looking at the T94 save, I just realized I fked up. We grew to pop13 and I didn't adjust the :culture: slider. Cost us 2f and a bunch of beakers. One plank-walk for me... :blush:

Let that be a warning to you, FiveAces! The plank is getting crowded.

There's no way it was more than 7 tiles.

Culture boundaries can take strange forms, but if you're sure :).
BTW, land target would also come with a close border penalty (-2 by Alex).

* If KK captures Berlin, that gives him 5 cities, so we need 3 of his cities Hindu, right? If so, the the 3rd H-miss should probably go due south now and be ready to hp over to Hamburg.

* If I'm not mistaken, we're gonig to lose JC's cows as soon as we DoW Alex. CUzco is not on the river and the only road goes through Alex' land. Would this cancel the entire deal or just hack off the cows and leave the gold and copper in place?

BTW, land target would also come with a close border penalty (-2 by Alex).Now I'm certain I'm sure. ;)

* If KK captures Berlin, that gives him 5 cities, so we need 3 of his cities Hindu, right? If so, the the 3rd H-miss should probably go due south now and be ready to hp over to Hamburg.

* If I'm not mistaken, we're gonig to lose JC's cows as soon as we DoW Alex. CUzco is not on the river and the only road goes through Alex' land. Would this cancel the entire deal or just hack off the cows and leave the gold and copper in place?
No we need floor(state religion cities/2). I hoped Hamburg (if it ever gets Mongol) would be handled by Asoka at some time. So I would rather go to Karakorum, but no hurry.

No the deal is not canceled prematurely. JC just doesn't have cows for himself :D.

Attention team. Post #2k is coming up. This time I'm dead serious. It's mine. It's all mine. jesusin, last time I was nice to you because you are such a nice guy. This time it's different. You're gambling with your turn set, ok? That goes for all of you! And LC, remember that this game may continue long enough for you to have another turn set, so don't take any risks. Have I made my view perfectly clear? I think I have. Must not miss the most important post in the thread. It's my honor at stake...

The question is who and what type of warplan is this.
What I see possible, is dog pile on us or Asoka (? if he has the power for that).


From one of your previous posts, I had understood that dogpile wars were immediate. Did I understand right?

From one of your previous posts, I had understood that dogpile wars were immediate. Did I understand right?
The war plan dog pile is set immediately, with all the consequences for city production and research.
The actual declaration comes only when a unit can enter the territory (yeah, I noticed this only now ;) - you remember right).
So even dog pile can make full hands w/o ever leading to a declaration.

LC, remember that this game may continue long enough for you to have another turn set, so don't take any risks.The odds of me making post #2000 are about 45%. The odds of me inadvertantly making that post are 96.6%. Better remind me... ;)

No we need floor(state religion cities/2). I hoped Hamburg (if it ever gets Mongol) would be handled by Asoka at some time. So I would rather go to Karakorum, but no hurry.

No the deal is not canceled prematurely. JC just doesn't have cows for himself :D.Okay, good. And excellent on the cows! In fact I knew that, but forgot. Thanks.

Well, those cows will save us, if we can really get them. We can produce forge>HE>cat>cat>cat>univ each in 1 turn, but our faster approach to Educ has lost us completing Oxford in 1 turn because our workers can't get another chop in time. Now we need to figure out how to optimize this.

Well, how about (not exactly calculated):
after x missionaries and cats
axe-forge (chop and rush) - HE (completes with just the overflow) ...klarius, why didn't you tell me I was an idiot? I didn't realize you meant to pop forge and then poprush us down to pop10 on the univ. Now I timed the chop for HE instead and we're screwed on Oxford unless you can figure something out.

klarius, why didn't you tell me I was an idiot? I didn't realize you meant to pop forge and then poprush us down to pop10 on the univ. Now I timed the chop for HE instead and we're screwed on Oxford unless you can figure something out.
Well, I cannot look on the save now. But if you don't have a chop available this turn, just build a cat. Then forge (chop and rush) next turn.

There's no way it was more than 7 tiles.

Looking at the T94 save, I just realized I fked up. We grew to pop13 and I didn't adjust the :culture: slider. Cost us 2f and a bunch of beakers. One plank-walk for me... :blush:

What!??? You messed up the MM??? :mad::gripe::spank:

Burn him, burn him, burn him! :devil:

Got it! gonna try not to walk the plank. PPP coming tomorrow night when i'm not drunk.

EDIT: can someone please post the food/growth values for size 10-14? I must confess I never pay attention to these in a solo game :blush:

I can't get more than Floor(120/2.75) = 43h overflow on the forge.

EDIT: can someone please post the food/growth values for size 10-14? I must confess I never pay attention to these in a solo game :blush:Right now we're at pop13, 21/46f.

40f for pop11
42f for pop12
44f for pop13
46f for pop14

I have been thinking about how to ensure that KK captures Hamburg. Or rather that Asoka doesn't. One alternative is a cease-fire with Freddie, followed by bribing him to make peace with Asoka. But that counts as trading with KK's worst enemy, right?

In any case I think we should place the nearest cat on Asokas side of Hamburg and the two axes on KK's side. Once they have healed they can spread out a bit to cover more tiles.

I can't get more than Floor(120/2.75) = 43h overflow on the forge.
Sure. So use 1 turn coast or forest instead of mined hill to not waste the hammers.
We can still have max overflow towards the university by the cats after HE.

Build sequence:
Cat - forge (chop and rush) - HE - cat - cat - university (chop and rush).
Alternatively we can max science. Gets edu 1 turn earlier I think. Then build university in 2 (second turn rush). 1 less cat but more food (first method might need a turn starvation).

I have been thinking about how to ensure that KK captures Hamburg. Or rather that Asoka doesn't. One alternative is a cease-fire with Freddie, followed by bribing him to make peace with Asoka. But that counts as trading with KK's worst enemy, right?


We don't need a CF to be able to bribe Asoka into peace. So no trading with WE in any case.

We can use paper to get MC from Asoka or to get peace from Asoka, but not both.

Eliz has Machi, and it has no WW to protect; but she might have a monopoly on it....

How much longer are we waiting to get MC?
FiveAces, you might want to check the Paper-MC trade every turn. If it is MC+120g, it means that Asoka hasn't started researching Paper. The turn it is less than 120g, it probably means we want to trade away Paper right there and then.

Well, Oxford in 1t is still possible. It's expensive, the way I got it, anyway. We would end up with pop10 and 14/40 in the granary. :lol: But we build 1 thing per turn.

We don't need a CF to be able to bribe Asoka into peace. So no trading with WE in any case.

We can use paper to get MC from Asoka or to get peace from Asoka, but not both.


Yes, and that is my point. We want to save paper for trading for astro prereqs if possible.

Looked a bit into the save :).
We have lost a point of fair trading with Liz (when?).
Once we re-establish this Liz should be friendly.:love:
She has finally forgotten our rude rejection.

So first action: give gold in small increments to Liz until she is friendly.
Then get MC from her for paper (so we don't have to give it to Asoka). Next turn buy machinery, compass and archery for CS and philo.

We have lost a point of fair trading with Liz (when?).
Once we re-establish this Liz should be friendly.:love:
She has finally forgotten our rude rejection.Both happened on the same turn, during the IT after T93, so her attitude stayed at +8. This turn she got the +1 from religion, as expected.

Both happened on the same turn, during the IT after T93, so her attitude stayed at +8. This turn she got the +1 from religion, as expected.
Ok 30-40g should do.
Looks to me like lib-astronomy is in the bag :D.

klarius, in my tests I don't get both incense edit: silk and cows from Pleased Liz for copper. How certain are you we'll get both gold and cows from JC?

klarius, in my tests I don't get both incense and cows from Pleased Liz for copper. How certain are you we'll get both from JC?
I'm not certain at all, but as we anyway shouldn't eat the cow before it gets onto the trade table (JC can sell it before we get a chance), I think we just wait and see.
The value of copper is very difficult.
I know I got 2 benign resources for it at some time. But maybe the knowledge of machinery (obsoleting 2 copper units) reduces it's price too much.

Another thing: JC is cautious, when did this happen.

I'm not certain at all, but as we anyway shouldn't eat the cow before it gets onto the trade table (JC can sell it before we get a chance), I think we just wait and see.
The value of copper is very difficult.
I know I got 2 benign resources for it at some time. But maybe the knowledge of machinery (obsoleting 2 copper units) reduces it's price too much.I'm testing with Erkon's map and Liz doesn't know Machinery yet. Anyway, I tried testing with gold instead of silk and it shows up on WB but not in the trading resources window.:crazyeye: I can get both silk and cows for copper + 4gpt. It might be worth it, if we get the chance, because the gold is going to be +2:) and we don't want to lose our grip on it either.

Another thing: JC is cautious, when did this happen.Also just this turn.

...Eliz has Machi, and it has no WW to protect; but she might have a monopoly on it....

You lost me there, what is WW? :confused:

world wonder

Ok diplomacy-trades I would like:
30-40 g to Liz for friendly.
10-20 g to JC for pleased.
Convert JC to Hindu (so that GW is not his WE and we stay flexible w/o big gift).
Liz MC for paper.

Next turn:
If GW is not WFYABTA, buy calendar, archery and mono (only if it comes for free with the rest) for CS. That will then for sure make him WFYABTA.
Liz, machinery and compass for CS and Philo.

I would still build, cat-forge (chop and rush)-HE. But then rethink our options, if all the trades worked out as I wanted.

Ok diplomacy-trades I would like:
...
Liz MC for paper.


So do I. But she doesn't.
I imagine she's building the WW that comes with MC.

Ok diplomacy-trades I would like:
30-40 g to Liz for friendly.
10-20 g to JC for pleased.
Convert JC to Hindu (so that GW is not his WE and we stay flexible w/o big gift).
Liz MC for paper.

Next turn:
If GW is not WFYABTA, buy calendar, archery and mono (only if it comes for free with the rest) for CS. That will then for sure make him WFYABTA.
Liz, machinery and compass for CS and Philo.

I would still build, cat-forge (chop and rush)-HE. But then rethink our options, if all the trades worked out as I wanted.Trading sounds good to me.

What are you trying to achieve with cat-forge-HE? I ask because if we're going to take Oxford in 2 turns, then I see no point in delaying or poprushing forge-HE. I still haven't gotten Oxford in 1 turn with cat-forge (I got it with axe-forge), and it's at quite an expense. If you're doing it better, I'd appreciate some more details than just the build sequence.

Attention team. Post #2k is coming up. This time I'm dead serious. It's mine. It's all mine. jesusin, last time I was nice to you because you are such a nice guy. This time it's different. You're gambling with your turn set, ok? That goes for all of you! And LC, remember that this game may continue long enough for you to have another turn set, so don't take any risks. Have I made my view perfectly clear? I think I have. Must not miss the most important post in the thread. It's my honor at stake...

You'd better stay awake and online from now on.

What if I become even nicer? :mischief:

What are you trying to achieve with cat-forge-HE?

I think that sequence maximizes the overflow into the university because we are getting +100% on the forge and HE.

LC can you upload the test save you are using to play with this (or are you using spreadsheets?).

Can anyone explain how the overflow capping works? I don't want to do something like pop-rush and then chop into a build only to find the chop hammers didn't count somehow.

EDIT: If we have to spend 2 turns building anything, it should be the uni right, since we don't get the 100% bonus for poprushing that?

Trading sounds good to me.

What are you trying to achieve with cat-forge-HE? I ask because if we're going to take Oxford in 2 turns, then I see no point in delaying or poprushing forge-HE. I still haven't gotten Oxford in 1 turn with cat-forge (I got it with axe-forge), and it's at quite an expense. If you're doing it better, I'd appreciate some more details than just the build sequence.
I didn't really look for Oxford (who cares about those girlie small wonders) . And didn't calculate anything exactly.
I just want the forge and HE and also don't want to waste a lot more worker turns on chopping.
Note we can build maces and choks as soon as we get iron on line.

Maybe an easy rule:
On a cheap build you cannot get more base hammer overflow than your base hammer production.
Fractions lost by non suited multipliers will let you lose one base hammer.

On an expensive build the max overflow is determined by the floor of the base hammer cost of the build.
It's only a few 100 posts ago. :)

Edit: One special case with forge. The game is cheating you.
The multiplier of the forge is applied in the scaling back of the overflow.
So the maximum overflow is the base hammer cost of the forge with forge bonus already applied (which you didn't get when building it).

LC can you upload the test save you are using to play with this (or are you using spreadsheets?).

EDIT: If we have to spend 2 turns building anything, it should be the uni right, since we don't get the 100% bonus for poprushing that?Getting the university in 1 turn is by far the best poprushing deal we have, precisely because it only gets the 50%(bureau) + 25%(forge) production bonuses. Our FC is already food-rich and with HE freeing up 1-2 population from hammer tiles, we have that much more food.

Anyway, the 100% bonus is irrelevant, because poprushing gives you base hammers and we need so and so many base hammers for each build, depending on the bonuses, so the only danger with poprushing is losing overflow. On univ it's almost impossible for us to lose overflow--we wouild have to produce a ton of hammers to do that. Of course, we only consider poprushing the forge and/or the university, because on wonders, poprushing only yields half as many base hammers.

Here's my test save. It's got:
the FC tiles right,
the production and food right,
the :health: and :) quantities right, but only for the short term (forge won't give xtra :), etc.),
it's set at T85 instead of T95 so you just add 10,
VIctoria has our marble and will have a spare cow for trading next turn,
we already have Education and MC (I didn't worry about getting our research set right)
so you can play around with the builds, food, hammers, :health:, :), worker turns and connecting the iron.

klarius the builder speaking:
How about:
Forge now, naturally built.
Harbor chop and rush, so we don't have to rely on Roman steaks, which we might never get.
HE to complete with overflow.
Best match units (could include archer) to build overflow towards uni.

Basically, this crap is hard a hell to optimize with these low-hammer units, because if you need multiple turns to reach your max overflow, then you need to also maximize your production on your last build before overflowing into the univ (or whatever). If you give yourself too much overflow a turn earlier, you're screwed.

So we need to decide in advance what we want to do and then optimize it carefully, or just forget this business and make our lives a lot simpler.

Basically, this crap is hard a hell to optimize with these low-hammer units, because if you need multiple turns to reach your max overflow, then you need to also maximize your production on your last build before overflowing into the univ (or whatever). If you give yourself too much overflow a turn earlier, you're screwed.

So we need to decide in advance what we want to do and then optimize it carefully, or just forget this business and make our lives a lot simpler.

Two turns on Oxford doesn't look like too much of a waste, does it?

Getting to build Oxford in 1t but forcing us to build Archer/Axe the previous turn is not a hell of an improvemente, either. Only Cats and Chokos count.

EDIT: Ooops, I meant " a bejesus of an improvement"

Two turns on Oxford doesn't look like too much of a waste, does it?

Getting to build Oxford in 1t but forcing us to build Archer/Axe the previous turn is not a hell of an improvemente, either. Only Cats and Chokos count.
Well an archer is a future choko ;).
Edit:
But anyway, I would not look to much to get Oxford ASAP. It looks now we can trade nicely.
I would rather get the basic infra (forge, harbor) out of the way now, so that we later with HE and the capability to build all the nice stuff, can build military as we want.

klarius, do you know why I get 29h overflow when I produce a 0/25h archer with 10h previous overflow, 30h base production * 1.75 for 110h total production?

At 112h with 31h base I get 30h (which makes sense to me).
At 115h with 32h base I get 32h (which makes sense to me).

Maybe an easy rule:
On a cheap build you cannot get more base hammer overflow than your base hammer production.
Fractions lost by non suited multipliers will let you lose one base hammer.
Like Floor(Floor(1.75*30)/1.75) = 29.

On an expensive build the max overflow is determined by the floor of the base hammer cost of the build.

klarius, do you know why I get 29h overflow when I produce a 0/25h archer with 10h previous overflow, 30h base production * 1.75 for 110h total production?

At 112h with 31h base I get 30h (which makes sense to me).
At 115h with 32h base I get 32h (which makes sense to me).
How about that old post with a new example.

I don't like anything I get, trying to get Oxford early.
My current favorite is similar to an old LC proposal.
Keeps it pretty simple :). There is quite some margin to repair mess-ups.

turn base hpt build extra
95 27 forge
96 26 harbor chop/rush
97 22 HE
98 18 cat
99 22 cat
100 22 cat
101 22 uni chop/rush(3)/chop
102 22 oxford chop

No strange units built and with forge and harbor we are much less dependent on the AI to trade us resources.

Edit:
But anyway, I would not look to much to get Oxford ASAP. It looks now we can trade nicely.
I would rather get the basic infra (forge, harbor) out of the way now, so that we later with HE and the capability to build all the nice stuff, can build military as we want.

The cost in terms of lost beakers from delaying Oxford is pretty steep. Like "100 beakers per turn steep". But again, if we are going to whip 3 pop for it, that will cost us a lot of beakers also.

Hm, what are our objectives here? It seems to me that we want to build one unit per turn and also reach Communism as soon as possible. HE helps with both of these, Oxford helps greatly with the latter. But is really the forge and harbour important for these goals? I can easily imagine delaying these for another 10 turns or so, in particular if we are going to whip away a bunch of citizens. We will have less need of the health and happiness in the near future.

Hm, what are our objectives here? It seems to me that we want to build one unit per turn and also reach Communism as soon as possible. HE helps with both of these, Oxford helps greatly with the latter. But is really the forge and harbour important for these goals? I can easily imagine delaying these for another 10 turns or so, in particular if we are going to whip away a bunch of citizens. We will have less need of the health and happiness in the near future.
I don't see why it would be any better to build forge and harbor later. That also breaks unit production then (and we are wasting our HE bonus).
With both in place we can grow quickly back, still building every military unit we want (not just cats).
Health is a problem already now. The Roman cow is just a maybe. We will never (or at least very late) get the American cow, now that Washington has a wonder. And we may even lose the clams, with the lately built academy in Nottingham.
Soon we may want to declare on Rome, then also happiness gets tighter.

1 turn later Oxford is not a lot. I don't see how you get it 2 turns earlier w/o sacrificing a lot (and for sure not w/o pop-rushing at least 3 pop). The extra pop for the harbor is compensated by the improved trade routes, so I don't see a loss there.

What happens if you shift the forge back in the queue until after Oxford? Does that break the possibilities of one build/t?

Nevermind, I am going to do some calcs and find out for myself. :)

Nevermind, I am going to do some calcs and find out for myself. :)
Maybe, better try with LC's test save. Simple hammer sums will not do. The overflow math is really tricky.

Okay. This is my analysis of how to get the maximum overflow from a cat, axe, or archer. I thought this was interesting, so I wrote it up in detail for anyone that's interested. (This is just an expansion of klarius' formulas, of course.)

The Problem: The problem is how to maximize our overflow using cheap units like archers, axes and cats, without wasting any hammers. For these cheap units, the maximum possible overflow is limited by the amount of Base Production (see pictures below) in our city for the turn we want to maximize our overflow.

Maximum possible overflow is determined by the Base Production of our FC for that turn (this is only true for cheap units--units that cost less than the Base Production). For us the max is going to be around 28-32h (or less) until we start building workshops. Note that the overflow is 1h less for any amount not divisible by 4, eg.:

Base Production: 28h --> max possible overflow: 28h
Base Production: 29h --> max: 28h
Base Production: 30h --> 29h...
Base Production: 32h --> 32h

The next critical factor is the amount of hammers we need to build the unit, since we'll be getting production bonuses from Bureaucracy, HE, and a forge.
Base hammer cost w/bureau, HE, and forge hammer bonus:
archer: 10h (10h * 2.75 = 27:hammers: = 1 archer)
axe: 13h
cat: 15h
choko: 22h
mace: 26h
gren: 37h

Since we have to spend hammers to build the unit before we get any overflow, we cannot accumulate the maximmum overflow in a single turn (unless we poprush or chop a forest). This leads us to our next factor.

Maximum added overflow per turn from a given unit:
The most we can add to the overflow per turn is the Max possible overflow minus the Base hammer cost of a unit. For example, say we set our city Base Production to 28h. Then the most we can add to the existing overflow by building an archer is: 28h - 10h = 18h. What this means is that, using archers, it will take at least two turns to get up to the Max possible overflow of 28h, for instance, 10h one turn, then 18h the second turn.

So the last question is how to do this without wasting any hammers. Simple. The last turn has to have the Base Production set to the Maximum possible overflow setting, such as 28h in our example. This means it will add 18h to the overflow, if we're building an archer. So the second-to-last turn must produce 28 - 18 = 10h overflow. This is easy to do. You simply build an axe, archer or cat, whatever works best and set up your production so that Base Production plus any existing overflow hammers is equal to 10h plus the Base hammer cost of the unit you're building that turn. How about an eaxample in pictures?

Here it is in pictures. Picture #1 shows the production for a catapult. The Base Production + overflow = 25h. The cat cost 15h, so the overflow into Picture #2 is 10h. Picture #2 shows the production for an archer. The Base production plus the overflow is 38h. The archer costs 10h, so the overflow into Picture #3 is 28h. Picture #3 shows the production for the build where we want 28h overflow.

By the way, if anyone can tell me how to put pictures inline, I could sure make the above explanation easier to read. I used to know how, before the Easy Upload got trashed. BUt now I don't know how to upload a picture so that I can link to its URL.

Plus, how do I upload just a piece of a picture so I don't get teh whole white page as background?

So do I. But she doesn't.
I imagine she's building the WW that comes with MC.

Don't think so - she says she doesn't want to start trading it, not that she has her reasons. Think that means it's available once she's friendly.

What happens if you shift the forge back in the queue until after Oxford? Does that break the possibilities of one build/t?

Nevermind, I am going to do some calcs and find out for myself. :)Maybe, better try with LC's test save. Simple hammer sums will not do. The overflow math is really tricky.

Yes, it also helps remind you about surprises like losing 1:health: after chopping the next forest... ;)

Don't think so - she says she doesn't want to start trading it, not that she has her reasons. Think that means it's available once she's friendly.
Yes, that's just partial monopoly, which isn't any problem at friendly. And, BTW, the Colossus was BIADL long ago.

Whatever you guys come up with, it is mandatory that you produce one build / turn. Nothing else matters! Who cares about 100 beakers. One build per turn!!

Nothing else matters!You see that, jesusin? Ergo, post #2000 does not matter. :lol:

forge-cat-HE(chop)-cat-uni(chop, rush3)-Oxford(chop,2 turns)-harbor gets you Oxford 1 turn earlier than klarius's at the expense of 1 cat.

Whatever you guys come up with, it is mandatory that you produce one build / turn. Nothing else matters! Who cares about 100 beakers. One build per turn!!

I don't fully agree. In general it is true. If we build Oxford in 2 turns, then we have built one less item, like in FiveAces variant.

But if we are to twist our builds in order to do that, like in LC's pictured example, I don't think we should. Frankly, I prefer 1 Oxford and 1 Cat in 3 turns better than 1 Oxford 1 Archer and 1 Axe.

I can't figure which varient I like better: mine or klarius's

klarius:
benefits: +1 cat, early harbor
costs: +1 rush - pop and :mad:, +1 chop (worker turns, but not less :health:), sci on delayed uni/Osford

FiveAces:
benefits: +1 turn of uni/Oxford sci, -1 chop = progress on iron
costs: -1 cat, late harbor

Is the double and longer :mad: from whipping twice in klarius's plan significant, or does it take that long to recover the pop anyway?

forge-cat-HE(chop)-cat-uni(chop, rush3)-Oxford(chop,2 turns)-harbor gets you Oxford 1 turn earlier than klarius's at the expense of 1 cat.

Last night I think I managed to build something like this:

cat-harbor(chop,rush1)-HE-cat-uni(chop,rush3)-Oxford(chop,2turns)

But I wasn't particularly sober and didn't take any notes so I will have to try it again today. :crazyeye:

Edit: No, doesn't work. Was it 2 turns on Uni instead? No, I can't make that work either. Nevermind... :(

forge-cat-HE(chop)-cat-uni(chop, rush3)-Oxford(chop,2 turns)-harbor gets you Oxford 1 turn earlier than klarius's at the expense of 1 cat.
Using LC's test save has a bit of a problem. In reality we cannot get edu in 4 and work all the hammer tiles we like. So any sequence relying on that has to be tested for commerce also.

Edit: Or do a planning like I did, which has lots of margin in every respect.

We are going to lose 1:health: with forge, 1:health: with the first chop and 1:health: with the third chop. Because of the Nottingham academy, I'm pretty sure we'll lose the clams by T105 if not sooner (I don't think we can compete with the +20:culture: from border expansion). So the late harbor will net us +1:health: and maybe we'll get the cows from JC. That puts us at +10-11:health:. FiveAces, could you put together <code> listing of your Oxford 2t build and hammer sequence, similar to what klarius did?

Assuming the Oxford 2t solution can make do without the limited health resources, this is how I evaluate the differences:

Oxford 1t:
Important: A three-pack of cats at a time when KK will presumably be needing help with Alex.
Oxford 2t:
Important: Iron connected 3t sooner (T104 instead of T107) with infrastructure done just in time to build chokos;
+1 chop available for aquaduct, NE, or ... without losing another :health:;
some beakers.
So the question to ask is how useful is the extra cat for Alex? Especially if we end up suiciding our existing 2 axes and 2 cats on Hamburg, because those new cats won't have any protection and Alex won't hesitate to rip them to shreds, or will he? Maybe we should consider delaying Oxford some more turns and build a stack of cats for Alex? Anybody have a feeling for how many will make a difference? Or should we just be patient and then drop the hammer? Ahyone guess when we'll get Engineering at the current research rate of Liz and Asoka? That will make a huge difference.

One significant benefit of Chokos is that, until Grenadiers, they can defend themselves and cats. Even a promoted mace will have trouble taking down a choko in a forest.

Don't tell LC the Stubborn but I've been considering prioritizing iron over Oxford-1t ever since klarius figured out how to get Machinery so fast and mentioned his preference for iron to chopping.

It looks like the workable (Gnejs' doesn't work - that has to be 4 pop rush uni w/o forge), need forge first.
Maybe do this and all the trading in the first 2 turns to see if that works all out, before deciding.

It looks like the workable (Gnejs' doesn't work - that has to be 4 pop rush uni w/o forge), need forge first.
Maybe do this and all the trading in the first 2 turns to see if that works all out, before deciding.Maybe. My thought-without-testing is that you could probably run your variation but skip the last chop and complete Oxford in 2 turns. Just not sure about the hammers and how the worker turns play out with iron.

Maybe. My thought-without-testing is that you could probably run your variation but skip the last chop and complete Oxford in 2 turns. Just not sure about the hammers and how the worker turns play out with iron.
Well, skipping the last chop doesn't help a bunch, like I planned it (last chop being the pre-chopped forest). One has to plan early to make that different.
The worker that is chopping now is supposed to do one turn of pre-chop on the roaded forest then. That would stay the same.
For my sequence it goes to an unroaded forest then.
It can road the iron instead.
That should do.

At work, but from memory:

t95 - 27h, forge, no overflow
t96 - 28h, cat, 28h overflow
t97 - 28h, HE, chop, no overflow
t98 - 18h(or more), cat, 18h(or more) overflow
t99 - xxh, uni, chop, 3 rush, xx overflow (base hammers at least whatever needed for 1 turn finish after chop)
t100 - xxh, Oxford, no overflow (lots of flexibility on base hammers)
t101 - xxh, Oxford, need min 24h overflow if next turn 22h base
t102 - 22h(or more), harbor, xx overflow

At work, but from memory:

t95 - 27h, forge, no overflow
t96 - 28h, cat, 28h overflow
t97 - 28h, HE, chop, no overflow
t98 - 18h(or more), cat, 18h(or more) overflow
t99 - xxh, uni, chop, 3 rush, xx overflow (base hammers at least whatever needed for 1 turn finish after chop)
t100 - xxh, Oxford, no overflow (lots of flexibility on base hammers)
t101 - xxh, Oxford, need min 24h overflow if next turn 22h base
t102 - 22h(or more), harbor, xx overflow
I think that doesn't work out for research.
After the first turn one will see clearer.

I don't fully agree. In general it is true. If we build Oxford in 2 turns, then we have built one less item, like in FiveAces variant.

But if we are to twist our builds in order to do that, like in LC's pictured example, I don't think we should. Frankly, I prefer 1 Oxford and 1 Cat in 3 turns better than 1 Oxford 1 Archer and 1 Axe.

The extra archer gives +1 :). Or archer + axe => +2 :). Not bad at all.

A bit reasoning:
I think everybody who really tested it found out by now that the chop / 3 pop rush on university is needed for a decent Oxford date. That means forge before uni.
Forge should be built w/o overflow as the game is cheating away some of it otherwise.
This means forge first.
W/o harbor then we are working with -2 or -3 health then ( w/o cow - we know this next turn).
That doesn't seem right :eek: .

A bit reasoning:
I think everybody who really tested it found out by now that the chop / 3 pop rush on university is needed for a decent Oxford date. That means forge before uni.
Forge should be built w/o overflow as the game is cheating away some of it otherwise.
This means forge first.
W/o harbor then we are working with -2 or -3 health then ( w/o cow - we know this next turn).
That doesn't seem right :eek: .To add just a bit.

We want to hook up iron asap and have enough pop to run 22hpt plus some growth for chokos.
Population and Oxford for more beakers are important but somewhat lower priority than units.
Each chop enables us to build another building in 1 turn. Using 2 chops for 1 build violates the principle of 1 build per turn, in a sense. We still may want NE, aquaduct, Globe,...

ok you want me to play 1st turn tonight then?

3 min PPP before I have to go back to work:

bulb edu
gift Liz 30-40g to get to friendly
gift JC ~30g to get to pleased
promote melee axe to CII (CR? WI?)
move axe pair 1N to jungle hill
move missionaries towards target cities
move cats towards hamburg (jungle hill rendevous point?)
trade paper for MC+gold from Liz
build forge, switch 1 citizen from coast to grass forest
chop wkr1
quarry wkr2

Did I miss anything?

And yes el capitan this will go into a proper PPP format tonight if I proceed ;)

Go for it. I may not check in again till tonight. Good luck!

I would leave the axe pair where they are to heal and watch KK's unit S and SW of Hamburg. The western cat is taking its fastest path to the jungle hill, but the eastern cat might as well go SE SW toward N of Hamburg so he can peek into Kyoto and watch Asoka's progress NE and E of Hamburg. I doubt we need to protect those cats against Fred. If he attacks a single cat, all the better for emptying his city of defenders. Plus, our axes can clean up any mess in either of those tiles.

What will you do if either Liz or Asoka demands that you cancel trade (OBs) with Alex? Maybe it's best to have the missionaries travel as close to Alex' eastern border as possible? (without running into any Fred vagabonds, of course)

Keep a running record of the whereabouts of Alex' 4 archers N of Hamburg. Look out for any other Alex wandering stacks.

Cancel actions on worker actions so hammers don't go wandering.

ok you want me to play 1st turn tonight then?

3 min PPP before I have to go back to work:

bulb edu
gift Liz 30-40g to get to friendly
gift JC ~30g to get to pleased
promote melee axe to CII (CR? WI?)
move axe pair 1N to jungle hill
move missionaries towards target cities
move cats towards hamburg (jungle hill rendevous point?)
trade paper for MC+gold from Liz
build forge, switch 1 citizen from coast to grass forest
chop wkr1
quarry wkr2

Did I miss anything?

And yes el capitan this will go into a proper PPP format tonight if I proceed ;)
JC should only need 10-20g :lol:.
And then convert him to Hindu ( for free ) to keep him pleased.
For moving the missionaries:
Note, it doesn't help to convert one city, we need 2. The first missionary can do some more scouting, before going to work (e.g. a look on Antium would be nice).

What will you do if either Liz or Asoka demands that you cancel trade (OBs) with Alex? Maybe it's best to have the missionaries travel as close to Alex' eastern border as possible? (without running into any Fred vagabonds, of course)

Give in to the demand. I'll keep that in mind when moving the misionaries.

Assuming Alex has decided to DOW us, when he gets to the turn where he would if he could find a route to us - will he DOW if one of our units is in his territory or within site of one of his, or does the code require him to actually have a path to our land before he will DOW?

Assuming Alex has decided to DOW us, when he gets to the turn where he would if he could find a route to us - will he DOW if one of our units is in his territory or within site of one of his, or does the code require him to actually have a path to our land before he will DOW?
He has to enter our land with a military unit.

ok you want me to play 1st turn tonight then?

3 min PPP before I have to go back to work:

bulb edu
gift Liz 30-40g to get to friendly
gift JC ~30g to get to pleased
promote melee axe to CII (CR? WI?)
move axe pair 1N to jungle hill
move missionaries towards target cities
move cats towards hamburg (jungle hill rendevous point?)
trade paper for MC+gold from Liz
build forge, switch 1 citizen from coast to grass forest
chop wkr1
quarry wkr2

Did I miss anything?

And yes el capitan this will go into a proper PPP format tonight if I proceed ;)

Don't rush it, please. I strongly oppose the following:

switch 1 citizen from coast to grass forest

We are 13 beakers short of completing Education in 4 turns. If you switch away one commerce tile there is no chance at all that we will make up for it. I think this kills some of the plans that had Uni on T99 in them...:eek:
(A possible way to gain those 13 beakers is to run one extra coastal tile for two of these four turns, btw)

Like LC, I would also suggest that you use the two axes+the nearest catapult to keep an eye on the progress of KK and Asoka at Hamburg.

I think this kills some of the plans that had Uni on T99 in them...:eek:

Sure, but any plan with Uni on T99 does anyway not work with low production. At least I have not seen any that could. Ok, maybe leaving out HE :eek: and some more pop-rushes :eek: could work.

BTW, forge (with grass :))-harbor (+2 commerce), then low production, high commerce can still give education T99. Just I don't see what it helps for Oxford build.

Edit:
And another BTW:
2 turns later Uni+Oxford (250% base beakers) is less than a turn worth (300% base beakers) on sci method. So 0-1 turns. If sci method is delayed by 1 turn it's even not sure that communism is delayed as GLib and monastery go obsolete 1 turn later.

Sure, but any plan with Uni on T99 does anyway not work with low production. At least I have not seen any that could. Ok, maybe leaving out HE :eek: and some more pop-rushes :eek: could work.

BTW, forge (with grass :))-harbor (+2 commerce), then low production, high commerce can still give education T99. Just I don't see what it helps for Oxford build.

Edit:
And another BTW:
2 turns later Uni+Oxford (250% base beakers) is less than a turn worth (300% base beakers) on sci method. So 0-1 turns. If sci method is delayed by 1 turn it's even not sure that communism is delayed as GLib and monastery go obsolete 1 turn later.

Yes, I am aware of all that. I just don't see the point of playing one turn without a longer plan. The only thing this does is restrict our options.

I would rather see a full ten turn PPP. This may well include switching from coast to forest, I have no problem with that if it is part of a concious plan.

I think the point is that we can better make a plan next turn, knowing what we're going to get from JC in trade. The cows make a difference in terms of growth. BOth plans had forge done this turn, so why not (that was the 'conscious plan' anyway, as I understood it).

Now I suspect we'll have to throw in some gpt to get cows + gold and imo, it's worth it and suppose we can afford it without slowing our research fo rhte next four turns.

JC should only need 10-20g :lol:.
And then convert him to Hindu ( for free ) to keep him pleased.


Do we really want to convert both KK and JC to hindu? This could bite us back later on.

Yes, I am aware of all that. I just don't see the point of playing one turn without a longer plan. The only thing this does is restrict our options.

I would rather see a full ten turn PPP. This may well include switching from coast to forest, I have no problem with that if it is part of a concious plan.
Well, there is my plan :) (only for 7 turns, but the rest is just build units).
That works and has some margin, if the trading on T0 and T1 works out as planned. We also should decide then what to do with our newly acquired techs.

@LC, if we can get the cow at all, we can also throw in furs :eek:. With forged gold and silver and a few garrison we can do easily for happy.

The extra archer gives +1 :). Or archer + axe => +2 :). Not bad at all.

Not interested.
With the forge and the whip we won't be in need of happiness anytime soon. It will be really long, till we grow back.

Do we really want to convert both KK and JC to hindu? This could bite us back later on.
In fact I would prefer to not convert JC. Not because of KK (that shouldn't be a problem), but Asoka, if we decide we want to go after Rome soon. But Asoka isn't that much of a problem anymore. If the trades work out now, it looks like we might not have to trade with Asoka at all for the astronomy prerequisites.
But that costs another big bribe just for good relations and we cannot do a big trade with Washington (WE of JC w/o conversion) then.

We have some rather nice techs on Lizzie and she is about to become friendly. Which AIs can she be bribed to dow? Perhaps JC?

It will be really long, till we grow back.
Probably not as long as you think :).
If we are just building military, we can have more than +7 food on average.

We have some rather nice techs on Lizzie and she is about to become friendly. Which AIs can she be bribed to dow? Perhaps JC?
We will have to declare first on JC, then she might enter. W/o our DoW it's not only extremely expensive (I don't think we can afford this - we want to trade tech, remember), but she will not even declare because of his power.
Alex and Izzy are options, if we want this.

Edit:
If you want a war between Liz and JC it's easier the other way round, like:
After the DoW to Alex, we buy optics+DoW Alex form Liz for edu.
Then we declare on Liz. Now JC is bribed against Alex and Liz.
Just to complete the picture we can then DoW JC and think about against whom we send KK (all at once ;) or ..)

Edit2:
Naturally we would also send Asoka against JC and Alex and if I think a little more I probably also get Isa into the picture :D.

Probably not as long as you think :).
If we are just building military, we can have more than +7 food on average.

I was counting on dozens of scientists and artists to eat that off :lol:

We have some rather nice techs on Lizzie and she is about to become friendly. Which AIs can she be bribed to dow? Perhaps JC?

What for?

As I said, I prefer the wold at peace, except for KK+ourselves against 1 AI at a time. That way we don't need to cross our fingers while seeing who will take the next city.


EDIT:see what you have done! klarius is whirling now! please stop him!

What for?

As I said, I prefer the wold at peace, except for KK+ourselves against 1 AI at a time. That way we don't need to cross our fingers while seeing who will take the next city.


EDIT:see what you have done! klarius is whirling now! please stop him!

Lol! :lol:

I prefer a world at war. Or at least a continent. The best would be to team up equal strength sides so that they pillage each other endlessly. I would particularly like to have Asokas land pillaged so that he doesn't rush off in tech and power.

Btw, do we care at all about what happens on the other continent? Should we perhaps instigate a bunch of wars there as well. Just for the fun of it, I mean. :D (Could also be nice to have as a back-up in case our tile count is messed up by KK razing Cuzco or something. )

Edit: But I agree with you that KK needs to capture the cities in any war we involve him in.

Should we perhaps instigate a bunch of wars there as well. Just for the fun of it, I mean. :D

Well, we'll see. War is always nice :D.
But currently I don't see that we even have a boat in the planning to meet people.
It might also be a bit difficult with all the confused buddies.

Well I'm not going to play any tonight. Sat in traffic for 2 hours due to 2 cement mixers that decided to exchange bumpers and not in the mood. What I will do is work on a full PPP, with a couple options depending on the cows and such.

I have a question though - do we have a deadline that KK has to make peace or kill Fred so we can bribe him on somebody else? Or is converting him enough to get him on Alex at any time?

On world war to encourage pillaging - I think we want to try to keep some roads intact, no?

W

I have a question though - do we have a deadline that KK has to make peace or kill Fred so we can bribe him on somebody else? Or is converting him enough to get him on Alex at any time?

KK has to be at peace T98.

On world war to encourage pillaging - I think we want to try to keep some roads intact, no?

I am not so sure it matters. KK is going to grab a bunch of workers along with the cities he captures. And our two workers can road one tile per turn. We could even build some more workers later on if required.

Our focus should be on getting KK up to juggernaut level--about 6 cities minimum. At that point he should be able to wipe out another AI in a turnset or less. Every time we set another AI at war with someone, he's going to need at least a turnset or two before he'll DoP, so we either set him against an AI we're not targetting for a couple of turnsets, or we keep playing spin the bottle to find out who'll capture cities, like jesusin keeps saying.

I also agree with jesusin on pillaging. Pillaging is not going to stop any AIs from getting LBs. We're going to kill them off before they get Rifles, so what's the big need to pillage? What slowed me down more than anything else in my test games was teaming with an AI that pillaged like crazy before attacking the city. First I waited for him to attack, then I waited for him to move his units to the next target.

KK's preferred build--City_Attack hopefully solves the first problem. Let's not create the second one unnecessarily. We'll build 10 units a turnset and KK will crank them out too. Our problem will not be how to capture cities with 10 defenders, it'll be creating wars fast enough and getting units to the enemy cities fast enough.

KK will storm through cities like a Tsunami through stacks of cards. We already screwed up Kyoto and we're on the verge of gifting Hamburg to Asoka too. Okay, no problem, we had a great reason for that. But getting the Astro prereqs is a done deed. Now we need to adopt a new war strategy. It's KK and us against the world.

I don't like anything I get, trying to get Oxford early.
My current favorite is similar to an old LC proposal.
Keeps it pretty simple :). There is quite some margin to repair mess-ups.

turn base hpt build extra
95 27 forge
96 26 harbor chop/rush
97 22 HE
98 18 cat
99 22 cat
100 22 cat
101 22 uni chop/rush(3)/chop
102 22 oxford chop

No strange units built and with forge and harbor we are much less dependent on the AI to trade us resources.

The best I can do without a forge seems to be:
turn base hpt build extra
95 22 cat (1 extra coast)
96 22 HE chop (1 extra coast)
97 26 cat
98 26 cat
99 25 Uni chop/rush(4)
100 25 Oxford(2t) chop
101 21 Oxford


Benefits:
Cat triplet is completed 2t earlier,
Education finished 1t earlier (doesn't matter much though...)
Oxford 1t earlier
Workers available earlier for connecting Iron
One forest saved

Drawbacks:
No forge, harbor - these could be built later from chop/overflow when needed
T99-T101 need more hammers = less food, slower regrowth after the big poprush
Edit: one less build due to 2t Oxford

If anybody has any free time today, they could check to see if t99 edu is possible with my suggested build queue. I'm thinking of a fork in the PPP - klarius's queue for early harbor if no cows from JC, and my queue if they are available and we can get t99 edu.

Third option - My queue with t100 edu, slot the harbor in earlier and use the 4th chop for 1t Oxford on t102. I haven't checked that either though.

If anybody has any free time today, they could check to see if t99 edu is possible with my suggested build queue.

As far as I can see it isn't. Edu on T99 requires two turns at 26h and two turns at 22h (working coast instead of mine). Or other similar variations, the key point being that we need a few beakers more research than what the 26h setup gives us.

Edu T99 is possible by Gnejs plan.
Gets 684 beakers 673 needed.

Still I doubt that it gets us ahead in beakers overall.
The harmless notion:
"No forge, harbor - these could be built later from chop/overflow when needed"
costs a ton of beakers and slows growth further. We need to generate high overflow @ low pop preventing working coast.

As far as I can see it isn't. Edu on T99 requires two turns at 26h and two turns at 22h (working coast instead of mine). Or other similar variations, the key point being that we need a few beakers more research than what the 26h setup gives us.
If I calculated correctly 3 turns 26h (or same commmerce 1 pop less 22h) and 1 turn 22h( 17h ) should also do (but with 0 beakers to spare - so take that with a grain of salt). 2 turns harbor present should account for 1 turn less coast.

Edu T99 is possible by Gnejs plan.
Gets 684 beakers 673 needed.

Still I doubt that it gets us ahead in beakers overall.
The harmless notion:
"No forge, harbor - these could be built later from chop/overflow when needed"
costs a ton of beakers and slows growth further. We need to generate high overflow @ low pop preventing working coast.

I guess we don't actually need to maximize overflow. For example, 6h overflow + 18h base production + the saved chop completes the harbor in 1t.
We also get:
+1 health from not having a forge
+1 happy for 10t from only poprushing once

Do we need a forge at all? What for?

JC should only need 10-20g :lol:.
And then convert him to Hindu ( for free ) to keep him pleased.In fact I would prefer to not convert JC. Not because of KK (that shouldn't be a problem), but Asoka, if we decide we want to go after Rome soon. But Asoka isn't that much of a problem anymore. If the trades work out now, it looks like we might not have to trade with Asoka at all for the astronomy prerequisites.
But that costs another big bribe just for good relations and we cannot do a big trade with Washington (WE of JC w/o conversion) then.How about us just giving JC 10g occasionally to keep him pleased instead of converting to Hindu? We'll him DoW before long anyway.

I guess we don't actually need to maximize overflow. For example, 6h overflow + 18h base production + the saved chop completes the harbor in 1t.
We also get:
+1 health from not having a forge
+1 happy for 10t from only poprushing once

Do we need a forge at all? What for?
-2 happy for not having a forge
-3 health for not having a harbor
if you want such arguments.
Fact is you're working @ negative health up to uni and happy is no problem with forge.

18h base production @ size 9 (where you are at Oxford) is a lot less commerce and food than the 13h-18h swapping @ size 10, which I intend (the forge helps a bunch here). A bit later we can alternate cat-choko @ 18h, or sequences like cat-cat-mace.

One turn Oxford at size 9 is about 60 beakers. One turn additional coast with Oxford present is in the 12-15 beakers range.

Both forge and harbor present allow us to be flexible with resources. We don't need to trade with JC, if we want to kill him soon.

How about us just giving JC 10g occasionally to keep him pleased instead of converting to Hindu? We'll him DoW before long anyway.
We can do, but there is another risk. That's GW is his WE while he is bud. If we have to reject a cancel trade demand, it gets pretty expensive to get him back to pleased (though still possible with a tech).
Thinking about it, let's wait 1 or 2 turns. Either MC or compass should do, if we still have it on him then :crazyeye:, still saving our expensive techs. But I still think we want to occupy him first with a war on Alex and/or Isa before we DoW him. That means we need him at pleased in the T97-98 range.
After that we don't care anymore.

I see one more problem. We are too late to really help at Hamburg anyway. Maybe we should make peace/CF (teleport our wounded troops into neutral territory) and go for Sparta. Note the war with Fred will be soon over 20 turns. Then it's very likely (though not sure) for peace to break out.
At least don't move our cat away from Sparta, just for a look on probably not existing troops.

On T97 our two axes will be fully healed and the closest cat all ready to suicide on Hamburg. On T98 +1 cat, if we want. I'd rather give us a chance to get Hamburg then let it slip away. I also don't much like praying that KK will DoP Fred.

If KK DoPs Fred too late for Alex (T99), we still have the (lousy) option of switching ourselves and KK out of HeredRule. Edit: Nope.You cannot bribe anybody away from their favorite civic.
Also you cannot bribe anybody into the basic civics.

On T97 our two axes will be fully healed and the closest cat all ready to suicide on Hamburg. On T98 +1 cat, if we want. I'd rather give us a chance to get Hamburg then let it slip away. I also don't much like praying that KK will DoP Fred.

If KK DoPs Fred too late for Alex (T99), we still have the (lousy) option of switching out ourselves and KK out of HeredRule.
Well we can call of KK on T98, if necessary. We should have tons of techs on him by then. So I think we should only try for the T97-98 interturn, which means the 2nd cat doesn't help.
We can also just pray that there are a few people ahead of KK on the other continent. Then there is 1 point spare on KK-Alex :crazyeye:.

Edit:
You cannot bribe anybody away from their favorite civic.
Also you cannot bribe anybody into the basic civics.

@LC, if we can get the cow at all, we can also throw in furs :eek:. It's an idea, but since JC won't give any gpt, it looks an unfair deal for us. I think I'd rather save the furs and spend some gpt, even if this pushes Educ back to T100.
If anybody has any free time today, they could check to see if t99 edu is possible with my suggested build queue. I'm thinking of a fork in the PPP - klarius's queue for early harbor if no cows from JC, and my queue if they are available and we can get t99 edu. In 2 turns you can re-negotiate crabs to W for 1gpt. Currently, you could get 2gpt. This might get Educ T99. EDIT: No, this is just helping our overall cash reserves stay afloat. Okay, but still we might as well re-negotiate this deal if we're not planning to trade the crabs for something else.

Notes on Nottingham:
I think Nottingham's borders will expand as early as T103. This will cause border tension (is it -1 or -2 for Liz?) so Liz will drop to Pleased until that's corrected, probably by religion on T105 or maybe by OBs some time.

I think it will also take away our clams immediately or shortly thereafter.

EDIT: Okay, now I remembered something about land tiles. Does border tension also only come from land tiles? Because LIz's border expansion only adds adjacent water tiles.

Notes on Nottingham:
I think Nottingham's borders will expand as early as T103. This will cause border tension (is it -1 or -2 for Liz?) so Liz will drop to Pleased until that's corrected, probably by religion on T105 or maybe by OBs some time.


Why should this cause border tension ?
I don't see that anything will change by that.

Jeez there sure is a lot going on this turnset. :crazyeye: I will try to get a PPP posted tonight so we have something focused to continue discussion, even if it's only partially done.

Notes on Nottingham:
EDIT: Okay, now I remembered something about land tiles. Does border tension also only come from land tiles? Because LIz's border expansion only adds adjacent water tiles.
It's more complicated than that :D.
Land tiles count for land target. We will never be a land target for Liz. That's 40 points towards border tension we don't get.
The other source of points is stolen city radius tiles (the basic fat cross, not the expanded border). That could only increase if we do something crazy, like culture bomb MW.
We are at 10 stolen city radius tiles. Take that times 3 = 30 points.
Liz has -3 CloseBorderAttitude change. So it's -90 / 100 = 0.
Even another stolen tile would not give a -1.

Edit:
But anyway, what border tile (even the not counting water) is added at all.

Edit:
But anyway, what border tile (even the not counting water) is added at all.3N of Nottingham is a 1:food: 1:commerce: ocean tile, so it should become LIz's right? That would add two water borders.

3N of Nottingham is a 1:food: 1:commerce: ocean tile, so it should become LIz's right? That would add two water borders.
Maybe you're right :), I cannot look.
But anyway one more klarification:
Land target means 8 land tiles bordering (in any direction) an own land tile.
That's the only use of bordering tiles, so water never plays a role.

Stolen city radius tiles don't look for land/water.

Well we can call of KK on T98, if necessary.

Why would we like to see KK attacking Alex while Asoka takes Hamburg on his own?

Fred is a much more convenient goal for KK.

I'd rather see us influencing who will take Hamburg.

If we were to get someone off Fred's back, it should be Asoka, not KK!

Why would we like to see KK attacking Alex while Asoka takes Hamburg on his own?

Fred is a much more convenient goal for KK.

I'd rather see us influencing who will take Hamburg.

If we were to get someone off Fred's back, it should be Asoka, not KK!

Right. But the problem is we can't bribe KK to attack Alex after turn 99 (is it after 98 or after 99?) because he will go friendly with Alex. So if Berlin doesn't fall or KK make peace by then, we have to call him off and set him on Alex. Otherwise once he's done with Fred, we can only set him on JC, which the general feeling is that that's not a good idea until KK has maces.

Now having said all that, I realize the no to KK/JC was formulated before we knew we were going to have machinery on t96 (prob). So with that in mind, what do you guys feel about bribing JC against Alex and Izzy now, and then letting the KK/Fred war play out and set KK against JC next?.

Jeez there sure is a lot going on this turnset. :crazyeye: I will try to get a PPP posted tonight so we have something focused to continue discussion, even if it's only partially done.

It's very good if you could provide a PPP so that we all know what the discussion is based on! :D And I concur regarding the action during this turn set. It's a lot to think about. Such as getting post #2k!

Why would we like to see KK attacking Alex while Asoka takes Hamburg on his own?



The problem is, if KK doesn't get Hamburg in the next 2 turns all bets are off when he ever will get it. He can then make peace any turn w/o the need of a value matched treaty. Even if he has a 100 units there and would be sure to take it, the RNG can tell him to make peace instead.

Asoka hasn't taken Hamburg in 20 turns with KK helping. Why should he now (unless we suicide our units and help him :eek:)?

FiveAces, I can't figure out how you're doing your sequence. I don't see how you get the harbor in 1t after Oxford.

I also noticed that we lose a worker-turn on your first chop (it's timed for T96, not T97), so we would connect iron on T105, not T104 as I said previously. Furthermore, I don't see how you grow to pop14. Are you 3popping down to pop10?

Gnejs, I'm also not sure about your sequence. I don't see you getting to pop14 before uni. Are you 4popping down to pop9?

Implicit in klarius' sequence and the similar ones I did earlier is growth. klarius grows back up to pop13 after the first poprush. I was growing to pop14 before my 3pop. Growth is a hidden benefits of the forge and in klarius' case, the early harbor, in addition to the Heroic Epic.

Asoka hasn't taken Hamburg in 20 turns with KK helping. Why should he now (unless we suicide our units and help him :eek:)?

Hamburg has never been so weak. 3 miserable units there.

FiveAces, I can't figure out how you're doing your sequence. I don't see how you get the harbor in 1t after Oxford.

I also noticed that we lose a worker-turn on your first chop (it's timed for T96, not T97), so we would connect iron on T105, not T104 as I said previously. Furthermore, I don't see how you grow to pop14. Are you 3popping down to pop10?

Well there is always the possibility there was something wrong with the spreadsheet :D. Yes I do lose a worker turn on the first chop and yes, I am 3popping down to 10 and raiding the granary to boot after that - the three popped citizens are the 1 coast and 2 grass forests after the switch to 28h. But there should be plenty of overflow (only 20 required w 26 base, right?) from Oxford.

Hamburg has never been so weak. 3 miserable units there.
That's not true. When LC attacked with the axe, it was down to 3 badly hurt units with city defense bonus lower than now. It's probably the same all the time.
Sure, now we could start to help. But that can easily be another 5-10 turns until there would be a good opportunity.
All the time with the danger that KK makes peace.

It's better IMO, to call the attack off now and do it, when we are really prepared for it.
Hamburg is, BTW, one of the least critical cities for domination.

Yes i am poprushing down to 9, with regrowth to 10 in a couple of turns. Though there are some excess hammers that could prob be traded for quicker growth.

Yes i am poprushing down to 9, with regrowth to 10 in a couple of turns. Though there are some excess hammers that could prob be traded for quicker growth.
A couple of excess hammers don't get you far, if you have to go down to 13h (or 14 giving up even more commerce) base to grow faster. It boils down to that you cannot build decent units while growing fast. Then you are at size 10 and can still not grow as fast, if you want to build at least cats.
So that looks to me like an archer or warrior building frency, or much more commerce lost than you win by 1 turn earlier Oxford. And that's not even counting the 9-10 beakers per turn you lose for not having harbor after Oxford (which can increase quite a bit if we meet somebody from overseas).

A couple of excess hammers don't get you far, if you have to go down to 13h (or 14 giving up even more commerce) base to grow faster. It boils down to that you cannot build decent units while growing fast. Then you are at size 10 and can still not grow as fast, if you want to build at least cats.
So that looks to me like an archer or warrior building frency, or much more commerce lost than you win by 1 turn earlier Oxford. And that's not even counting the 9-10 beakers per turn you lose for not having harbor after Oxford (which can increase quite a bit if we meet somebody from overseas).

Not completing the harbor costs four7 food due to unhealth until T99. Completing forge first, then harbor loses two3 food due to unhealth. This is if we don't get any cows from JC. On T99 I whip away 4 pop so all health and happiness problems are solved at least until we grow back 2-3 of those 4 pop.
My take on this is that the loss of growth due to unhealth is very marginal minor, 4 food at most.

The harbor can be chopped on t103 so that is 2 turns of Oxford without a harbor which doesn't amount to much compared to 1t earlier Oxford. Though this delays connecting the Iron by two turns, until t106. Connecting the Iron first, on t104, delays the chop/harbor until t107. This I agree would be costly for research.

Edit: doh, forgot the lost health from the first forest chop.

If I calculated correctly 3 turns 26h (or same commmerce 1 pop less 22h) and 1 turn 22h( 17h ) should also do (but with 0 beakers to spare - so take that with a grain of salt).

Yay! You're right! I forgot to take that avoid-divide-by-zero one beaker per turn into account. :)

Gnejs, I'm also not sure about your sequence. I don't see you getting to pop14 before uni. Are you 4popping down to pop9?

Implicit in klarius' sequence and the similar ones I did earlier is growth. klarius grows back up to pop13 after the first poprush. I was growing to pop14 before my 3pop. Growth is a hidden benefits of the forge and in klarius' case, the early harbor, in addition to the Heroic Epic.

LC, klarius, don't get me wrong here. I also think that klarius' scheme looks like the best right now. What I am doing is playing the devils advocate a bit and explore the options we have to do things differently while achieving a similar end result.

In other words, just making sure that you are on top of things... ;)

It's a lot to think about. Such as getting post #2k!

You'd better hurry up, only 10 posts to go... :lol:

I also think that klarius' scheme looks like the best right now.
Well, it's a question of best for what. I'm trying to balance things here.
If you want max science and don't care about units, it would be best to delay HE after Oxford and build harbor and forge leisurely now in 2 turns each.
But that's not what we talked about what are priorities lately :).
OTOH one could also delay Oxford even further (maybe after about 8 units for a really decent stack). It's not that much research really and gives enough time to connect iron first.

Well, it's a question of best for what. I'm trying to balance things here.
If you want max science and don't care about units, it would be best to delay HE after Oxford and build harbor and forge leisurely now in 2 turns each.
But that's not what we talked about what are priorities lately :).
OTOH one could also delay Oxford even further (maybe after about 8 units for a really decent stack). It's not that much research really and gives enough time to connect iron first.

Best compromise, of course. :)

If this was all about research we would be slow building Oxford like Gnejs the builder originally proposed. Now we are stuck with this one-unit-per-turn mantra from LC the warmonger. :)

I am still slightly uncomfortable with whipping away almost a third of our pop in a OCC deity game. But if that is what it takes...

Re-posted after accidentally editting over.
I don't like anything I get, trying to get Oxford early.
My current favorite is similar to an old LC proposal.
Keeps it pretty simple :). There is quite some margin to repair mess-ups.

turn base hpt build extra
95 27 forge
96 26 harbor chop/rush
97 22 HE
98 18 cat
99 22 cat
100 22 cat
101 22 uni chop/rush(3)/chop
102 22 oxford chop

No strange units built and with forge and harbor we are much less dependent on the AI to trade us resources.Both of these end up with pop10 and 30f for klarius and 26f for mine.

klarius' has iron connected on T107 and 1 more cat, mine has iron connected on T104 and saves a forest.


turn base hpt build extra
95 27 forge
96 27 harbor chop/rush
97 22 HE
98 22 cat
99 22 cat
100 25 uni chop/rush(3)
101 28 oxford chop
102 22 oxford

LC that last proposal is exactly what my PPP is based on (I'm almost done) great minds think alike :goodjob:.

Is there any way to get Oxford in 2 turns without the forest chop? that's what I'm stuck on now.

Is there any way to get Oxford in 2 turns without the forest chop? that's what I'm stuck on now.Maybe making more cats before uni to get the overflow up to 28h?

Here's an improved test save, in case you ahven't already adjusted the earlier one. THis one has gold and silver and :health: resources aligned better so you can really see what happens. (I gave us incense :) instead of the Hindu :).)

Maybe making more cats before uni to get the overflow up to 28h?

Or even archers, for upgrading to Cho-Ko-Nu's... Going to cost a lot though.

Edited for optimization:Okay, ya bunch of ducks. Maybe this'll stop your quacking:

T95 forge
T96 harbor
T97 HE
T98 cat
T99 cat
T100 cat
T101 cat choko
T102 choko
T103 choko
T104 choko
T105 choko
T106 uni (chop/3pop/chop)
T107 oxford (1t)

This is based on wkr1 immediately leaving stone quarry (T95!) and going to connect iron> Wkr2 finishs harbor chop, then pre-chops (1t), then connects iron. When iron is connected, the workers finish the stone quarry, then each chops a forest for the uni 2chop.

On T107 pop11 with 30/42f, +4fpt, 1 choko/t. I leave it to any interested party to determine how much this slows down Liberalism. If we're interested I give you the hammer data.

I didn't optimize it for growth and ended up losing hammers to overflow, but we would probably be at pop12 on T107 and growing 4-6:food: per turn.

Have at it!

PPP FiveAces turnset: t95-t104

Overview
This turnset will aim to complete a forge, HE, uni, harbor and Oxford, as well as cats in the minimum optimal number of turns each (usually 1). KK will be converted to hindu and set on Alex. Liz will be kept at friendly so we can trade for MC, Machinery and Compass.

Build Queue
T95 – forge
T96 – harbor (chop, 1 rush)
T97 – HE
T98 – catT99 – cat
T100 – cat
T101 – uni (chop, 3 rush, chop)
T102 – Oxford (chop)
T103 – cat
T104 – cat

Unit Moves
Bulb GS
Melee axe promo to CII. Axes heal in place.
cat N of Hamburg moves to jungle hill NE Hamburg.
Hamburg will only be attacked if KK has a reasonable chance of taking it that turn and we have finished HE. If not axes will defend cat stack accumulating near Sparta
2 Missionaries move toward tiwanuku/berlin. 3rd missionary aiming to assist if one of the 2 fails; otherwise will will convert Karakorum.
Other cats move towards Sparta

Worker Actions
Wkr1: chop (1-2), pre-chop w deer (3), move E iron (4), chop (5-7), chop w deer (8), road iron (9-10)
Wkr2: quarry (1-3), move E deer (4), chop (5-7), move deer (8), move iron (9), road iron (10)

City MM
T95: move 1 from coast to grass forest (27h)
T96: same, whip coast (27h)
T97: move from ph mine (22h)
T98: move from ph mine to coast and grass forest to coast (18h)
T99: move 1 from coast to ph mine (22h)
T100: same (22h)
T101: whip 2 coast and plain cottage (21h)
T102 onward: max food/commerce while building 1 turn cat (22h this turn)

Diplomatic Actions
T95: Gift ~40g to Liz to get to Friendly, Gift ~30g to JC for pleased, Trade paper to Liz for MC
T96: cancel marble/gold deal from JC, trade copper for cow+gold from JC, renegotiate crab deal with Wash, trade philo/CS to Liz/Wash for mach, compass, cal, mono, arch
T98 (latest) Bribe KK to convert to hindu, DOW Alex, bribe KK DOW Alex

Accept demands from Liz, Asoka, KK

Sequence
As above :)
We’ll DOW Alex before we bribe KK but after KK is hindu.

Stop Criteria
Something weird happens
We meet a new civ
We're DOW'd
2 missionaries fail or we can't convert KK
Alex is dead
Optics or Engineering is available for trade

Others
Research: edu/liberalism
Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled: Ha Ha :lol:

Here's a plan-by-plan comparison

turn klar-Ox-1t LC-Ox-2t ChokFest Gnejs1 Gnejs2
------------------------------------------------------------
T95 forge forge forge cat cat
T96 harbor harbor harbor HE HE
T97 HE HE HE cat cat
T98 cat cat cat cat cat
T99 cat cat cat uni uni
T100 cat uni cat oxford oxford
T101 uni oxford choko oxford oxford
T102 oxford oxford choko cat cat
T103 cat cat choko cat harbor
T104 cat choko choko choko cat
T105 cat choko choko choko cat
T106 cat choko uni choko choko
T107 choko choko oxford harbor choko
T108 choko choko choko choko choko


LC-Ox-2t builds 1 less unit and saves 1 forest.

@Gnejs: Pls let me know if I got yours right.

Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah :clap: :dance: :banana: :bounce: :rockon: :high5: :woohoo: