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Erkon
Jun 02, 2008, 02:14 PM
What happened to Gnejs' suggestion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6878977&postcount=1958)? Even if it's bad, it would be nice to have a reason to mock him, right?

Here's a plan-by-plan comparison

turn klar-Ox-1t LC-Ox-2t ChokoFestival
------------------------------------------
T95 forge forge forge
T96 harbor harbor harbor
T97 HE HE HE
T98 cat cat cat
T99 cat cat cat
T100 cat uni cat
T101 uni oxford choko
T102 oxford oxford choko
T103 cat cat choko
T104 cat choko choko
T105 cat choko choko
T106 cat choko uni
T107 cat choko oxford
T108 choko choko choko

LC-Ox-2t builds 1 less unit and saves 1 forest.

Erkon
Jun 02, 2008, 02:23 PM
Nice PPP!

I've completely lost track of the discussion, so I'll just add a few cents:

Why is HE part of condition? We can build it even if the level4 has died, yes?

SWH: Hamburg is captured, Someone DoW us, others?

...PPP FiveAces turnset: t95-t104
...
Hamburg will only be attacked if KK has a reasonable chance of taking it that turn and we have finished HE.
...
Stop Criteria
Something weird happens
We meet a new civ
...

LowtherCastle
Jun 02, 2008, 02:38 PM
What happened to Gnejs' suggestion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6878977&postcount=1958)? Even if it's bad, it would be nice to have a reason to mock him, right?I only included plans that I had succeeded in getting to work.

EDIT: I corrected the comparison chart. In klarius' plan, the iron is connected on T107, so the first choko build starts on T107.

Gnejs
Jun 02, 2008, 03:15 PM
I only included plans that I had succeeded in getting to work.

In what sense doesn't it work? :confused:

LowtherCastle
Jun 02, 2008, 04:08 PM
In what sense doesn't it work? :confused:Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that yours doesn't work. I just didn't try it again after the first time when I asked you about the 4popping,

EDIT: Let me konw when you get the iron connected and I can add yours... :)

Gnejs
Jun 02, 2008, 04:24 PM
EDIT: Let me konw when you get the iron connected and I can add yours... :)



The harbor can be chopped on t103 so that is 2 turns of Oxford without a harbor which doesn't amount to much compared to 1t earlier Oxford. Though this delays connecting the Iron by two turns, until t106. Connecting the Iron first, on t104, delays the chop/harbor until t107. This I agree would be costly for research.

Edit: doh, forgot the lost health from the first forest chop.

Here you go. :) Not sure the hammers are enough for Chokos though.

LowtherCastle
Jun 02, 2008, 05:34 PM
Here you go. :) Not sure the hammers are enough for Chokos though.You need to average 24hpt w/o forge.

The plan-by-plan comparison (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6881457&postcount=1999) is now updated.

Gnejs
Jun 02, 2008, 05:49 PM
You need to average 24hpt w/o forge.

The plan-by-plan comparison (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6881457&postcount=1999) is now updated.

I guess that is possible at size 10 by working the plains cottage and alternating between the grass cottage and the plains hill mine. Gives 24hpt and 3 fpt on average. With forge it should be 22 hpt which is achievable at 4 fpt working both cottages full time. Ok, I see the light. Scrap the idea to skip the forge. :yup:

Gnejs
Jun 02, 2008, 06:09 PM
Right. But the problem is we can't bribe KK to attack Alex after turn 99 (is it after 98 or after 99?) because he will go friendly with Alex. So if Berlin doesn't fall or KK make peace by then, we have to call him off and set him on Alex. Otherwise once he's done with Fred, we can only set him on JC, which the general feeling is that that's not a good idea until KK has maces.

Now having said all that, I realize the no to KK/JC was formulated before we knew we were going to have machinery on t96 (prob). So with that in mind, what do you guys feel about bribing JC against Alex and Izzy now, and then letting the KK/Fred war play out and set KK against JC next?.

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Alex is nicely contained and won't do any harm to us. None of his cities are particularly important either. We can take them after the PA instead, which will happen in 40 turns or so from now.

But JC is clearly in the way for KK, having both Cuzco and two fat cities right next to the Mongolian heartland. If Kublai can successfully capture these he will officially reach juggernaut status. Those two gold will be particularly useful to us and our future ally.

But if we are going to go to war against JC it would be best if we ensure that he doesn't get either CS or Machinery soon.

klarius
Jun 02, 2008, 07:59 PM
The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Alex is nicely contained and won't do any harm to us. None of his cities are particularly important either. We can take them after the PA instead, which will happen in 40 turns or so from now.

But JC is clearly in the way for KK, having both Cuzco and two fat cities right next to the Mongolian heartland. If Kublai can successfully capture these he will officially reach juggernaut status. Those two gold will be particularly useful to us and our future ally.

But if we are going to go to war against JC it would be best if we ensure that he doesn't get either CS or Machinery soon.
We need to kill Alex now. That's pretty sure to work, everything else is just a crapshot (we cannot bring units down to Antium in time).
Leaving Greece to after PA, may easily cost us 10-20 turns.Domination may come very short after PA.
Btw, Cuzco is a non issue, IMO. Berlin will already take most of the tiles. Bombay a few.
It's the Indian cities we need.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 12:09 AM
Nice PPP!

I've completely lost track of the discussion, so I'll just add a few cents:

Why is HE part of condition? We can build it even if the level4 has died, yes?

SWH: Hamburg is captured, Someone DoW us, others?

No I believe you must have a level 4 alive to build the HE. I think I remember a solo game where I lost my only one while building it and had to stop. Can anybody else confirm?

I don't think I need to stop if hamburg is captured - either it's KK and we set him on Alex next, or it's Asoka and we can't do anything about it.

I can add if somebody DOW's us, but it won't happen. Alex can't reach us now, and everyone will either be at war already or too happy with us to DOW for the duration of my turnset.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 02:27 AM
We need to kill Alex now. That's pretty sure to work, everything else is just a crapshot (we cannot bring units down to Antium in time).There's only one war that's pretty sure to work rather than being a crapshoot: KK and only KK (plus us of course) versus the target.

DoW JC and KK against Alex and Alex is a crapshoot. So far KK is 67%-33% on our crapshoots, at best. Actually, KK is doing 50-50, capturing two, missing on one, and failing on one, but cities won't fail to be captured after we get our units to the fronts.

CEILING{16 cities * .667} = 11
CEILING{5 cities * .667} = 3
CEILING{2 cities * .667} = 2
Total = 16 + 5 + 2 = 23 cities attacked, 16 captures, 7 crap-outs.

So giving ourselves the benefit of the doubt in each cycle, we need to cause the capture of 23 cities to have KK capture 16 of them.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 02:47 AM
Leaving Greece to after PA, may easily cost us 10-20 turns. Domination may come very short after PA.
Btw, Cuzco is a non issue, IMO. Berlin will already take most of the tiles. Bombay a few.
It's the Indian cities we need.Correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying:
1. We need to kill Alex now...because it's our last chance to have KK DoW him before PA.
2. Cuzco is a non-issue...because we can settle a GP there after PA.
3. It's the Indain cities we need...because...?

If you don't see us needing a Cuzco at 100:culture:, please enlighten me with specific details. I just looked at my dotmap again and I still don't see domination with Cuzco < 100:culture:.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 02:48 AM
I don't think Alex is as much a crapshoot. He has 2 cities. We can ask KK to attack one (the one we're helping with) and JC the other. Alex has enough archers running around he can prob hold Athens until we finish Sparta and then we can call him off if we want and proceed to Athens with KK.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 02:54 AM
I don't think Alex is as much a crapshoot. He has 2 cities. We can ask KK to attack one (the one we're helping with) and JC the other. Alex has enough archers running around he can prob hold Athens until we finish Sparta and then we can call him off if we want and proceed to Athens with KK.I thought we had received info from klarius that asking the AI to attack a particular city only helped so far. In my games, I repeated my request every single turn and my partner still sent units to all of the target's cities.

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 03:20 AM
... but cities won't fail to be captured after we get our units to the fronts.

Make this enough units. And to all enemy regions.
That makes Alex, Liz or Washington, IMO (Fred is either dead anyway or at peace with KK).
We shouldn't attack anybody KK has no direct border. This can take forever until KK comes and he would raze cities, if they are to far away.
That makes Alex or JC. (Edit: and Asoka, if KK takes Hamburg).

In my book this says, either Alex is the next target or no war at all for about 10-15 turns.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 04:36 AM
klarius, do you see any way to trade for the techs we want, using Asoka and Liz, and still bribe Liz against Alex? Then maybe bribe JC against W and Izzy?

I'm not concerned if Liz captures an Alex city by accident.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 05:14 AM
klarius, do you see any way to trade for the techs we want, using Asoka and Liz, and still bribe Liz against Alex? Then maybe bribe JC against W and Izzy?

I'm not concerned if Liz captures an Alex city by accident.

Yes. Trade edu/CS to Liz for machinery, compass + DOW on Alex. I think we can still beat her to Liberalism since she will need to research philo first. But we risk that Asoka gifts it to her anyway and then we're screwed.

But why? Liz will build crossbows/maces in the cities immediately and JC won't.

jesusin
Jun 03, 2008, 05:21 AM
Could you please elaborate on the benefits of getting JC at war with Alex and Isabel?

I can only see the cons:
- Chance of JC taking Madrid.
- Chance of JC taking an Alex city just under KK's nose
- JC building more Prats than he would at peace.
Am I blind?:cool:

No I believe you must have a level 4 alive to build the HE. I think I remember a solo game where I lost my only one while building it and had to stop. Can anybody else confirm?


Yes, I can.

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 05:30 AM
How about this scenario:

As soon as KK ends the war against Freddie we bribe JC to attack Isabella. Two turns later we dow JC and bring in KK. Nobody else involved. Next target is Isabella, so if she by chance happen to capture a city it matters very little.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 05:45 AM
Could you please elaborate on the benefits of getting JC at war with Alex and Isabel?

I can only see the cons:
- Chance of JC taking Madrid.
- Chance of JC taking an Alex city just under KK's nose
- JC building more Prats than he would at peace.
Am I blind?:cool:

Well we have to take Madrid anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it's from JC or Izzy. And if he's at war with 2 civs he should be somewhat disoriented and not mount an optimally effective attack on either.

The risk of an Alex city under KK is a real one, and why LC is suggesting JC-> Wash/Izzy and using Liz to distract Alex, though that has its own risk with the Lib race, unless klarius can find a solution that doesn't require us to break edu.

The prats are no match for KK's maces, which he will have soon enough.

The questions that need to be answered are: 1) Is is better to leave JC in peace than to keep his hands full 2) if yes, is it worth the risk that he takes an Alex city 3) if not, then how do we ensure we win the liberalism race and are still able to trade for optics?

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 05:52 AM
No I believe you must have a level 4 alive to build the HE. I think I remember a solo game where I lost my only one while building it and had to stop. Can anybody else confirm?
Yes, I can.My experience is that once you have promoted a unit to the 4th level, it opens up the HE and losing the unit doesn't disable HE. I just tested it and I am completely unable to disable the HE, once available. Disbanading, attacking, any way I lose the unit, I can still build the HE.

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 05:53 AM
How about this scenario:

As soon as KK ends the war against Freddie we bribe JC to attack Isabella. Two turns later we dow JC and bring in KK. Nobody else involved. Next target is Isabella, so if she by chance happen to capture a city it matters very little.
We need the war against Alex. That can cost us a lot turns in the end, if we don't do anything now.
So my plan is JC->Isa, Alex as soon as 2 missionaries took (if the first 2 do it, declare immediately and let the 3rd teleport out with movement left). KK->Alex T98. Bribe with or gift machinery. He will upgrade his units before entering Alex' land.
Kill Alex quick no matter who deals the final blow. If he's not dead by the end of FA's turn set, I even consider to call KK off and let Alex be finished by JC and Liz (DoW+optics for edu).
Then it's time for KK->JC.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 05:59 AM
Could you please elaborate on the benefits of getting JC at war with Alex and Isabel?
I don't like JC on Alex, at all. I like JC on W. The benefits are having JC's and W's cities empty of attack units (only 3 defenders, hopefully), getting W pillaged, and having JC move his attack unitsas far from KK as possible. If Washington's captial is taken by JC, it's close enough to Cuzco that JC shouldn't raze it. If Cuzco falls to W, fantastic!

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 06:05 AM
We need the war against Alex. That can cost us a lot turns in the end, if we don't do anything now.
So my plan is JC->Isa, Alex as soon as 2 missionaries took (if the first 2 do it, declare immediately and let the 3rd teleport out with movement left). KK->Alex T98. Bribe with or gift machinery. He will upgrade his units before entering Alex' land.
Kill Alex quick no matter who deals the final blow. If he's not dead by the end of FA's turn set, I even consider to call KK off and let Alex be finished by JC and Liz (DoW+optics for edu).
Then it's time for KK->JC.

Well, my worry is that each time someone like Liz or JC or Asoka captures another city they are effectively increasing their power base by 33-50%. Makes quite a difference for a Deity AI if they get to keep if for a longer period. This is why I would be reluctant to set up one-sided wars where KK is not taking part, as you are suggesting as a possibility vs. Alex.

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 06:12 AM
The questions that need to be answered are: 1) Is is better to leave JC in peace than to keep his hands full 2) if yes, is it worth the risk that he takes an Alex city 3) if not, then how do we ensure we win the liberalism race and are still able to trade for optics?
I don't see any problem with JC taking an Alex city.
I think it is unlikely before KK is there also. Then it should be a piece of cake to take it from JC.

3) we don't break out edu unless we can trade for optics, as I want machinery with philo-CS (this early mainly for KK).
DoW Liz->Alex early is not worth risking lib->astronomy.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 06:13 AM
We need the war against Alex. That can cost us a lot turns in the end, if we don't do anything now.
So my plan is JC->Isa, Alex as soon as 2 missionaries took (if the first 2 do it, declare immediately and let the 3rd teleport out with movement left). KK->Alex T98. Bribe with or gift machinery. He will upgrade his units before entering Alex' land.
Kill Alex quick no matter who deals the final blow. If he's not dead by the end of FA's turn set, I even consider to call KK off and let Alex be finished by JC and Liz (DoW+optics for edu).
Then it's time for KK->JC.Let's talk dates. If we look at any of our plans for FiveAces' turnset, most if not all new units FiveAces produces may be too late for Alex. We could route them through Cuzco toward JC. That way the early ones are available for ALex, if that makes any sense. Realistically, we could have 2 SoDs ready for JC around T117-120, one down south attacking his iron and blocking advances on Beshablik and Karakorum, and one up north, attacking Cuzco.

If we plan to DoW JC around T115, then we have framework for deciding whatto do now.

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 06:18 AM
I don't like JC on Alex, at all. I like JC on W.
Nice, but how? We cannot afford that w/o DoWing W.
Or we have to gift up JC first to be able to use edu. That doesn't seem right just now.
We can consider this when Alex is dead.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 06:37 AM
For anyone who thinks Alex is much closer than JC
If we add 2 grass roads around Cuzco, a unit leaving Murky can attack Sparta on T9 (T10 without the roads). With 4 roads, that same unit can attack Antium on T10 or JC's southernmost iron on T12.

The difference is even less with Engineering: 7 turns to SParta and Antium, 8 turns to the south iron.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 06:44 AM
My rough guesstimate is that delaying Oxford to T108 slows down Liberalism by 3-4 turns. ANyone else look at this?

jesusin
Jun 03, 2008, 06:45 AM
My experience is that once you have promoted a unit to the 4th level, it opens up the HE and losing the unit doesn't disable HE. I just tested it and I am completely unable to disable the HE, once available. Disbanading, attacking, any way I lose the unit, I can still build the HE.

I have more confidence in your test than in my memory.

'Would you trust your own two eyes better than my word?' Woody Allen.

jesusin
Jun 03, 2008, 06:48 AM
We need the war against Alex. That can cost us a lot turns in the end, if we don't do anything now.
So my plan is JC->Isa, Alex as soon as 2 missionaries took (if the first 2 do it, declare immediately and let the 3rd teleport out with movement left). KK->Alex T98. Bribe with or gift machinery. He will upgrade his units before entering Alex' land.
Kill Alex quick no matter who deals the final blow. If he's not dead by the end of FA's turn set, I even consider to call KK off and let Alex be finished by JC and Liz (DoW+optics for edu).
Then it's time for KK->JC.

I do mind if someone finishes Alex. I prefer to have an OCC Alex to finish after PA than to have to confront a 3 citied JC instead of a 2 citied one.

Same goes for whoever said it didn't mattered if JC took Madrid.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 06:54 AM
PPP updated (post 1998)

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 07:09 AM
I do mind if someone finishes Alex. I prefer to have an OCC Alex to finish after PA than to have to confront a 3 citied JC instead of a 2 citied one.

Same goes for whoever said it didn't mattered if JC took Madrid.

If we wait until after the PA for JC, then I agree. But if JC is next after Alex I'd prefer either a beaten down 3-city one (note he already has 3 cities) or a stretched thin 4-city one as opposed to allowing his current 3 cities 10+ turns to recover from sacking Cuzco.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 07:21 AM
My experience is that once you have promoted a unit to the 4th level, it opens up the HE and losing the unit doesn't disable HE. I just tested it and I am completely unable to disable the HE, once available. Disbanading, attacking, any way I lose the unit, I can still build the HE.

Well if that's the case, then I would propose to promote the melee axe to CR, hope KK moves his stack N instead of suiciding and then suiciding our units then if it looks promising to fall or at the latest once the cat arrives.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 08:12 AM
If we wait until after the PA for JC, then I agree. But if JC is next after Alex I'd prefer either a beaten down 3-city one (note he already has 3 cities) or a stretched thin 4-city one as opposed to allowing his current 3 cities 10+ turns to recover from sacking Cuzco.May I offer you a JC six-pack of his 3 cities + Madrid, Sparta and Athens?

Erkon
Jun 03, 2008, 08:28 AM
I have more confidence in your test than in my memory.

Rats! My knowledge of the rules does not count, but LC's tests does?? :cry:

Because of that I vote on the following:

DoW Alex
Get JC to DoW Alex.
Get JC to DoW Isabella.
DoW JC
Get KK to Dow JC

Kill'em! Kill'em all!!!

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 09:17 AM
May I offer you a JC six-pack of his 3 cities + Madrid, Sparta and Athens?

Remember klarius's post earlier about not overestimating JC (or any AI really) ability to successfully wage a multi-front war. If by some miracle he has that city base by the end of the turnset, he certainly won't be able to hold it very long if we bring KK around then. It's deity AI but his cities won't be able to produce enough to hold off our 1-turn cats and choku's. We will pillage his metal and then he will be mincemeat because the best unit he can produce will be a longbow.

Rats! My knowledge of the rules does not count, but LC's tests does?? :cry:

Because of that I vote on the following:

DoW Alex
Get JC to DoW Alex.
Get JC to DoW Isabella.
DoW JC
Get KK to Dow JC

Kill'em! Kill'em all!!!

Why do you want KK to DOW JC when he most likely can't take any cities this turnset? At least with Alex we have a chance of taking sparta/athens. Plus if we don't set kk on him by t98 somebody else has to take sparta/athens or we must wait until after PA to attack.

jesusin
Jun 03, 2008, 09:36 AM
Trying once again:

Hey, why don't we dow Alex soon, together with KK? We will leave the rest of the world at peace. Then JC and his 3 cities will just build infrastructure and 2-3 defenders per city, instead of pouring Prats to no end.

Erkon
Jun 03, 2008, 10:53 AM
...Why do you want KK to DOW JC when he most likely can't take any cities this turnset? At least with Alex we have a chance of taking sparta/athens. Plus if we don't set kk on him by t98 somebody else has to take sparta/athens or we must wait until after PA to attack.

Because I want KK to capture JC-land, Madrid and then Asoka land asap. I want JC gone to relieve KK from the cultural pressure from the Romans, and have a simple geometry frontline. I want KK to own the nice cities that JC owns (gold etc). I think KK can grab a city from the Romans this TS. Perhaps not all. But I'm not looking at this TS. I'm looking at the long term strategy, where KK advances through JC-Isabella-Asoka. Then he will have the eastern part of the continent and can attack Washington, Alex and Elizabeth in any suitable order. Once KK is large enough, all of Alex, Washington and Elizabeth will fall really quickly (as in 15-20 turns).

Summary: JC is a much more important for KK than Alex from a long term strategic point of view. Or do you think otherwise? :)

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 11:27 AM
3rd missionary aiming to assist if one of the 2 fails; otherwise will be used as scout.

I would really like him going to Karakorum. We might have to convert him again once he has 6 cities (hopefully soon :D).
Our scouts should be cats, axes, maces or chokos. Don't lose another non combatant unit by having it hang around near a front.

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 11:35 AM
Lets assume for a moment that we skip Alex. Would we then need to convert KK at all?

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 11:42 AM
Lets assume for a moment that we skip Alex. Would we then need to convert KK at all?
I don't want to assume this.
But we should convert his cities in any case, even if we would wait with converting him. We need to know if the religion takes.

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 11:45 AM
I don't want to assume this.
But we should convert his cities in any case, even if we would wait with converting him. We need to know if the religion takes.

Sure. But would we gain anything from converting him if we don't set him on Alex?

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 11:53 AM
Because I want KK to capture JC-land, Madrid and then Asoka land asap. I want JC gone to relieve KK from the cultural pressure from the Romans, and have a simple geometry frontline. I want KK to own the nice cities that JC owns (gold etc). I think KK can grab a city from the Romans this TS. Perhaps not all. But I'm not looking at this TS. I'm looking at the long term strategy, where KK advances through JC-Isabella-Asoka. Then he will have the eastern part of the continent and can attack Washington, Alex and Elizabeth in any suitable order. Once KK is large enough, all of Alex, Washington and Elizabeth will fall really quickly (as in 15-20 turns).

Summary: JC is a much more important for KK than Alex from a long term strategic point of view. Or do you think otherwise? :)

In your long-term strategy, does Alex come before or after the PA?

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 11:55 AM
Because I want KK to capture JC-land, Madrid and then Asoka land asap. I want JC gone to relieve KK from the cultural pressure from the Romans, and have a simple geometry frontline. I want KK to own the nice cities that JC owns (gold etc). I think KK can grab a city from the Romans this TS. Perhaps not all. But I'm not looking at this TS. I'm looking at the long term strategy, where KK advances through JC-Isabella-Asoka. Then he will have the eastern part of the continent and can attack Washington, Alex and Elizabeth in any suitable order. Once KK is large enough, all of Alex, Washington and Elizabeth will fall really quickly (as in 15-20 turns).

Summary: JC is a much more important for KK than Alex from a long term strategic point of view. Or do you think otherwise? :)

I totally agree with your analysis. Though I am more in favor of not bringing in Alex at all. Just Isabella, Kublai, and us against JC.

Isa goes first and takes a beating, then Kublai gets to upgrade all his melee units to Macemen and his archers to Crossbows. Together with the cats he is already building he will probably steamroll over JC. Prets or no prets.

Btw, I think JC got a Great Artist from Music recently. If he bombed it he might have gained some further tiles from KK which adds to the reasons to go after the Romans.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 11:55 AM
I would really like him going to Karakorum. We might have to convert him again once he has 6 cities (hopefully soon :D).
Our scouts should be cats, axes, maces or chokos. Don't lose another non combatant unit by having it hang around near a front.

Yeah that's a good point. Although I wasn't planning on losing the unit ;)

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 11:57 AM
Sure. But would we gain anything from converting him if we don't set him on Alex?
After the war with Fred ends, GW will be KK's WE. That might be fixed by Hindu. We still don't like him asking us to stop trading with GW.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 11:57 AM
Sure. But would we gain anything from converting him if we don't set him on Alex?

It might make it cheaper to DOW JC and Izzy if KK is in a different religion.

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 12:02 PM
In your long-term strategy, does Alex come before or after the PA?

I can answer that: after. The earliest theoretical PA date is in about 40 turns. This is with getting Astro from Liberalism and double-bulbing SciMet and a generally good science rate. Realistically I think we can get it in 45-50 without problem.

In the meantime we can go after JC (15t?), Isabella (5t?), Asoka (15t?), Washington (5t?), Lizzie (10t?) = 50 turns. Very uncertain estimates of course... :)

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 12:06 PM
BTW I can play tomorrow night, but I won't unless we have general agreement on what we're doing with KK and JC. If I don't play tomorrow then I can't play until Friday though. But this is probably the most critical strategic discussion of the game so we should definitely take our time and thoroughly discuss what we're doing. If that means Friday (or later) than so be it.

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 12:08 PM
After the war with Fred ends, GW will be KK's WE. That might be fixed by Hindu. We still don't like him asking us to stop trading with GW.

Good point. But if KK is Hindu, can we still set him on any of the other Hindu AIs or will they become best friends? I guess we cannot easily convert him back to Buddhist.


It might make it cheaper to DOW JC and Izzy if KK is in a different religion.

True, although we shouldn't really care much about giving a bunch of good techs to KK.

FiveAces
Jun 03, 2008, 12:24 PM
I can answer that: after. The earliest theoretical PA date is in about 40 turns. This is with getting Astro from Liberalism and double-bulbing SciMet and a generally good science rate. Realistically I think we can get it in 45-50 without problem.

In the meantime we can go after JC (15t?), Isabella (5t?), Asoka (15t?), Washington (5t?), Lizzie (10t?) = 50 turns. Very uncertain estimates of course... :)

This is helping. I disagree that we can finish JC in anywhere near 15 turns if we DOW now, even with Izzy's help. But that is not the real question. The real question is, do you think that if we wait and mess with Alex for my turnset, maybe a little more, we can take JC (including whatever new cities he might capture) in less turns than if we DOW now.

So say your estimates above are accurate and JC takes Madrid while we mess with Alex. Do you think we can now take JC in 20 turns or less?

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 12:28 PM
Good point. But if KK is Hindu, can we still set him on any of the other Hindu AIs or will they become best friends? I guess we cannot easily convert him back to Buddhist.

KK doesn't like our Hindu friends from his personality. No big problem there. And there's still free religion as an option.

Gnejs
Jun 03, 2008, 12:40 PM
This is helping. I disagree that we can finish JC in anywhere near 15 turns if we DOW now, even with Izzy's help. But that is not the real question. The real question is, do you think that if we wait and mess with Alex for my turnset, maybe a little more, we can take JC (including whatever new cities he might capture) in less turns than if we DOW now.

So say your estimates above are accurate and JC takes Madrid while we mess with Alex. Do you think we can now take JC in 20 turns or less?

Lets see: JC now has prets, cats, and archers while KK has or will have maces, cats, and crossbows. If we can lure JC's units into Spain and then dow we can probably prevent a large portion of those units from being upgraded once JC discovers CS, MC, Machinery or Feudalism. If we(KK) also pillage the gold and/or capture Antium he might never even get to these techs before it is over for him.

If we wait until after Alex then JC will have completed some or all of these techs and might have upgraded a lot more units. We won't get any stronger units until Chemistry...

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 12:42 PM
Unit Moves
S cat moves to jungle hill NE Hamburg.
Cats move towards Sparta

Worker Actions
Wkr1: chop (1-2), move to iron (3), road iron (4), chop w deer (5-6), road iron (7-8), mine iron (9-10)
Wkr2: quarry (1-3), move E iron (4), chop (5-7), mine iron (8-10), twiddle thumbs (suggestions?)

Stop Criteria
Something weird happens
We meet a new civ
We're DOW'd
2 missionaries fail or we can't convert KK
Alex is dead

Cats: Which is the south cat and what about the other one?

Wkrs: Wkrs 1 and 2 have two unproductive (movement only) worker turns and your iron isn't connected till T105. We can do it with only one. Better, for example:
Wkr1: chop (1-2), move to iron (3), chop w deer (3), road iron (4-5), chop w deer (6), road iron (7), mine iron (8-10)
and your iron is done T104.

Stops: Something very important in this game, as it turns out, is when new techs become available for trade. In your turnset, bigtime techs might be Optics and Engineering. Also if anyone acquires both Philo and Educ and threaetens Liberalism.

Erkon
Jun 03, 2008, 01:15 PM
I don't want to assume this...

Excuse me for being stupid, but I have lost the reason why we wanted KK to attack Alex. Is there any reason apart from the friendly relation in a couple of turns which will prevent a DoW until after the PA? Sometimes you change your mind :mischief:, so could you please give me a summary why you want KK to attack Alex instead of JC :please:

klarius
Jun 03, 2008, 01:36 PM
Excuse me for being stupid, but I have lost the reason why we wanted KK to attack Alex. Is there any reason apart from the friendly relation in a couple of turns which will prevent a DoW until after the PA? Sometimes you change your mind :mischief:, so could you please give me a summary why you want KK to attack Alex instead of JC :please:
The most important reason, is the friendliness. But I also think that we can finish Alex quickly.
I don't think JC now is a good idea. In the moment we cannot help. KK will just suicide a lot of units.
In about 10-15 turns it looks a lot better. And I think that could be time enough to solve our Greek problem once and for all.

LowtherCastle
Jun 03, 2008, 05:04 PM
City MM
T95: move 1 from coast to grass forest
T96: same <---whip happens this turn
T97: move from grass forest back to coast, (ph mine whipped)
T98: move from ph mine to coast
T99: move 1 from coast to ph mine
T100: new citizen pop9 this turn after whip + 2 coast whipped, plain cottage move to ph mine
T101: move grass cottage to ph forest pop10 this turn
T102: move from ph mine and forest back to cottages
T103: max food/commerce while building 1 turn cat
T104: max food/commerce while building 1 turn choku
This seems workable as long as you're careful but you have a couple things that don't seem quite right, as noted in blue. I agree with you on having the granary at <= 38:food: when you whip uni. On T101, it seems like you'll have to work the third hill 3:hammers: to get Oxford in 2t, but I may have misunderstood what you were doing before. Just be careful to get it right and cancel worker actions, obviously.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 01:50 AM
This seems workable as long as you're careful but you have a couple things that don't seem quite right, as noted in blue. I agree with you on having the granary at <= 38:food: when you whip uni. On T101, it seems like you'll have to work the third hill 3:hammers: to get Oxford in 2t, but I may have misunderstood what you were doing before. Just be careful to get it right and cancel worker actions, obviously.
Maybe better build an archer instead of 1 of the cats to allow for more food. Otherwise this seems all a bit tight to me.
We should be able to afford to upgrade it after iron is connected, so that's no loss.

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 05:00 AM
Maybe better build an archer instead of 1 of the cats to allow for more food. Otherwise this seems all a bit tight to me.
We should be able to afford to upgrade it after iron is connected, so that's no loss.Do you mean tight on food for growing or tight on hammers for making sure we get Oxford in 2 turns?

I can't find any benefits from forcing growth to pop13 before the uni 3pop, so building the archer before the uni will just lose any extra food. Extra overflow instead of extra food doesn't seem to make any difference either. After Oxford, we can gain +4f per archer, but doesn't really change anything that I can see--either way we can still build a choko per turn starting T104. So +4f at a cost of 125:commerce: seems too expensive to me. I like that money in reserve to cover our units, just in case we don't meet anyone new soon or the other continent doesn't have a lot of cash.

FiveAces can go whichever way is comfortable, as far as I'm concerned. But I'd prefer to see a corrected MM plan.

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 05:20 AM
A Proposal

It seems like we aren't in complete agreement on KK's next DoW sequence. I think FiveAces' turnset divides most easily into 2 phases: 1) before KK is converted to Hinduism and 2) after, when we can DoW him on Alex or JC. FiveAces can play tonight and/or Friday.

I propose that FiveAces plays tonight until he has succeeded with 2 Hindu misses (T97/98) and converted KK to Hinduism. Then he takes his 'mid-session' break and we come to some agreement on KK's next DoW.

A number of things can happen before that point that may affect our decision, such as whether KK is still at war with Fred.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 05:48 AM
A Proposal

It seems like we aren't in complete agreement on KK's next DoW sequence. I think FiveAces' turnset divides most easily into 2 phases: 1) before KK is converted to Hinduism and 2) after, when we can DoW him on Alex or JC. FiveAces can play tonight and/or Friday.

I propose that FiveAces plays tonight until he has succeeded with 2 Hindu misses (T97/98) and converted KK to Hinduism. Then he takes his 'mid-session' break and we come to some agreement on KK's next DoW.

A number of things can happen before that point that may affect our decision, such as whether KK is still at war with Fred.

It is great that you have a proposal for getting some progress, but I am not convinced this is such a good idea. If want to go against JC then converting KK is questionable, at least if one takes the one turn anarchy into account. The missionaries could even be used for other purposes like scouting or sentry duties to spot caravels from the other continent.

We also have one or several wars to set up prior to KK entering. At least if we want to go for Alex we might want to start the wars involving him and JC already this turn.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 06:02 AM
It is great that you have a proposal for getting some progress, but I am not convinced this is such a good idea. If want to go against JC then converting KK is questionable, at least if one takes the one turn anarchy into account. The missionaries could even be used for other purposes like scouting or sentry duties to spot caravels from the other continent.

We also have one or several wars to set up prior to KK entering. At least if we want to go for Alex we might want to start the wars involving him and JC already this turn.
Once again, I'm opposed to any solution not meaning war KK-Alex by T98.

That means we cannot declare on Alex before T97, as otherwise we will not get the missionaries through.

If you want to go for JC immediately and not for Alex before PA, state that now clearly.
That's the only condition that can change the use of missionaries.

If there is even the slightest doubt about going for JC, then we have to get the missionaries through first.
We still could decide then to not go for Alex and use the misionaries otherwise, but not before.
Even for sentry duty the first 2 should go through to the south first, BTW.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 06:28 AM
I can't find any benefits from forcing growth to pop13 before the uni 3pop, so building the archer before the uni will just lose any extra food.
There is anyway no way to grow to 13 (44 food) before the uni pop, with all the high hammer turns.
It's even tight to grow from 9 to 10 and have enough hammer overflow for Oxford, AFAIR.

There is also a second turn of forest instead of coast in the plan. This could be avoided by not building cat.

There is another benefit of an archer. This archer can be already on one of the silvers for upgrade, so will be able to enter any battle earlier than a newly built choko.

FiveAces
Jun 04, 2008, 06:46 AM
Well I can play all day Friday (weekend in UAE) so there's not really a rush there. I can even play to t97/98 Fri morning and then break for a few hours before continuing.

My vote is still to send KK against Alex - Skipping Alex now could likely mean we face a stronger Alex after the PA as our critical path - there is no one to bribe against him except Liz, and she is not likely to be effective and might even lose a city in the process (plus we can't afford the DOW right now). Weakening Alex now means either he's dead or weaker at the PA. Come PA time, I would rather need to take a city each from 2 weakened civs than 2 cities from one that's been left relatively alone since 500BC. Remember if we go at JC now, he cannot help weaken Alex. It will all be up to Liz. I don't prefer that. Also remember Liz must be at friendly to bribe for DOW. Thus once we start attacking hindus, there is no one to weaken Alex.

Yes, LC I will update the PPP with correct MM (tonight). Thanks for optimizing the worker turns and finding my miscalculation of city growth.

Will we have enough overflow from HE to build aqueduct? that would solve the food problems, though at the expense of a cat. Or is the 2x cat overflow needed for 2 turn Oxford and can't be recovered by working more hammers afterwards thanks to the +2:health:?

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 07:01 AM
Timeline Analysis of DoW ---> Captured City

DoW-Turn AI DoP-Turn City-Captured Number-of-Attacking-AIs
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Huyana Capac
T46 MW T73
KK T68 T48 (Tiwanaku) 3
Fred T63
Alex T63
T65 JC T90 (Cuzco) 1 (after 3 decimated HC)

Tokugawa
T46 MW
T65 Fred
Asoka T74 (Kyoto) 3
T69 KK

Fred
T78 MW
Asoka
KK T83 (Berlin) 2
T?? (Hamburg)


Considerations
1. We can't help with KK on JC for about 15-20 turns.
2. KK DoPed HC after 23 turns.
3. KK has fought with Fred for 17 turns so far.
4. Chances are pretty good that KK will DoP with JC before killing him off.
5. JC doesn't have LBs yet, but has high GNP.
6. Pre-PA we can only bribe so many wars with the techs we'll have available, so I think we need to exterminate most AIs with a single DoW.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 07:24 AM
If you want to go for JC immediately and not for Alex before PA, state that now clearly.


I want to go for JC immediately and leave Alex alone until after the PA.

:)

My vote is still to send KK against Alex - Skipping Alex now could likely mean we face a stronger Alex after the PA as our critical path - there is no one to bribe against him except Liz, and she is not likely to be effective and might even lose a city in the process (plus we can't afford the DOW right now). Weakening Alex now means either he's dead or weaker at the PA. Come PA time, I would rather need to take a city each from 2 weakened civs than 2 cities from one that's been left relatively alone since 500BC. Remember if we go at JC now, he cannot help weaken Alex. It will all be up to Liz. I don't prefer that. Also remember Liz must be at friendly to bribe for DOW. Thus once we start attacking hindus, there is no one to weaken Alex.


I wouldn't lose sleep over Alex's strength when we go after him. My preferred plan involves KK taking on JC, Isabella, and Asoka first. This means that KK will have about 10-12 good cities (as well as Murkyopolis producing one unit per turn) against Alex' two, of which neither is anything special. While we are removing the Buddhist AIs, Alex will also run out of friends and have noone to trade with.

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 07:41 AM
It is great that you have a proposal for getting some progress, but I am not convinced this is such a good idea. If want to go against JC then converting KK is questionable, at least if one takes the one turn anarchy into account. The missionaries could even be used for other purposes like scouting or sentry duties to spot caravels from the other continent.

We also have one or several wars to set up prior to KK entering. At least if we want to go for Alex we might want to start the wars involving him and JC already this turn.Frankly, I think we have missed our window of opportunity on JC. Before we went the missionary route, I was prepared to build a Stack'o'Cats and they would be well on their way to JC now and we'd have had an excellent chance of catching him with archers. But that's water over the dam.

I whole-heartedly agree that JC is a major roadblock on our way to domination, but I think we want to hit him fast and hit him hard when we DoW him. In fact, I think we need to completely shift our War Strategy away from what we've been doing. We now need to think in terms of BlitzKrieg. Drawn-out wars are not what we want. We want lightning quick wars.

No one seems to have warmed to the idea, but personally, I think we should postpone Oxford till T108 (as in my plan-by-plan analysis (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6881457&postcount=1999)) and get a SoD down to JC's south iron by ~T117. Here's my logic:

1. Rome and Antium are production powerhouses. With them producing, KK is flat-out unstoppable. The sooner they are producing the better. The quicker (as opposed to sooner) we take them, the less they get pillaged and the sooner they are producing.
2. All you guys were convinced that we'll get Liberalism, no problem. So delaying it 3-4 turns should be no problem, especially since we're ahead of schedule on our research. But get this: delaying them also extends our window for popping 2 GSes to speed up PP and/or SciMeth, so I'm not sure it even slows down our research.
3. Delaying Oxford also allows us to grow our pop up faster, so we work more coastal tiles.
4. The extra chop lost to uni is not needed anyway if the oly other buildings we want are NE and aqueduct. (Not to ignore the possibilitiy of GLobe.)

So I haven't been pushing it, but I think we should send out a stack of 5-6 chokos and 2-3 cats (8 units). That gets my vote. We do the DoW Alex thing now and about T115 JC.

FiveAces
Jun 04, 2008, 08:05 AM
So I haven't been pushing it, but I think we should send out a stack of 5-6 chokos and 2-3 cats (8 units). That gets my vote. We do the DoW Alex thing now and about T115 JC.

Can you be more specific about the DOW Alex thing? Is DOW Alex, bribe KK on Alex, bribe JC on Alex/Izzy, then call off KK t115 and set on JC, maybe bringing in Liz against Alex?

Or is it DOW Alex, bribe JC against Alex/Izzy, do nothing with KK until t115?

Or something else?

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 09:31 AM
Can you be more specific about the DOW Alex thing? Is DOW Alex, bribe KK on Alex, bribe JC on Alex/Izzy, then call off KK t115 and set on JC, maybe bringing in Liz against Alex?

Or is it DOW Alex, bribe JC against Alex/Izzy, do nothing with KK until t115?

Or something else?What I meant is continue with the DoW-Alex plan that klarius is talking about, butwe send our units down through JC's CUzco toward JC's south iron. As the first of these units pass Alex, they'll be available to go west to Sparta and help if necessary. We would also want to send our workers down asap to complete the four needed roads north and south of CUzco. Our second SoD can be formed from the next batch of choko/cats that will arrive just north of Cuzco at about the same time. When we have a big enough stack down in KK's land, just west of JC's iron, and a Cuzco stack, we could then decide about when to DoW JC. It's a long time off so any plan is only tentative, obviously. What we do know, though, is that it should take a while to get our stack down there.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 09:43 AM
Frankly, I think we have missed our window of opportunity on JC.

Let me disagree. We haven't missed it yet, it is just that our units won't be able to help anytime soon. But I think KK getting maces and crossbows will make up for that.

I also think the logistics (for KK) is much more favorable for dowing JC. Take Antium as an example. KK's units can reach it in three turns from all of his four cities. If he can build one unit every second turn in each of his cities that means that there will be two fresh units arriving there every turn.

Sparta and especially Athens are much farther away from KK's bureaucracy-boosted capital.


Edit: On second thought, our units are already in good position for containing JC's units at Cuzco. And once we get more cats and some Cho-Ko-Nu's there we should be able to bring it down to one defender and serve it on a platter for KK.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 10:43 AM
On JC's chances on getting stronger units...


Between T85 and T95 JC has gained Currency, CoL, and Construction. He might have traded for some of these techs. Is there a way to tell, or to estimate his science rate?

He can now research CS, Feudalism, Metal Casting, Compass, Philosophy, Theology, and maybe something else?. What are his preferences here?

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 11:03 AM
He can now research CS, Feudalism, Metal Casting, Compass, Philosophy, Theology, and maybe something else?. What are his preferences here?
You can probably delete philo and theo as pretty unlikely.
Feudalism has several things speaking for it, especially if at war. But the other things are also possible.
There is a big, fat random number in the decision what to research.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 11:22 AM
Will we have enough overflow from HE to build aqueduct? that would solve the food problems, though at the expense of a cat. Or is the 2x cat overflow needed for 2 turn Oxford and can't be recovered by working more hammers afterwards thanks to the +2:health:?

There is nearly no overflow from HE. And buiding Oxford w/o another chop is also critical either for hammers or growth to 10. It's tight to about the last hammer, any small error might prevent it.

And what should an aqueduct help? Harbor is cheaper and does the job up to size 12 with 4 forests chopped. So no health problems in your turn-set after the harbor is complete.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 11:25 AM
You can probably delete philo and theo as pretty unlikely.
Feudalism has several things speaking for it, especially if at war. But the other things are also possible.
There is a big, fat random number in the decision what to research.

How big? Could we determine the approximate probability that JC is currently researching Feudalism?

I guess it is larger than 1/6 but less than what? 50%? 33%?

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 11:28 AM
But I think KK getting maces and crossbows will make up for that.

He cannot have maces and crossbows before we gift him machinery @ T97 earliest (would be nice to know if this works at all :rolleyes:, before relying on it). Then he still needs an IBT to upgrade his units.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 11:39 AM
How big? Could we determine the approximate probability that JC is currently researching Feudalism?

I guess it is larger than 1/6 but less than what? 50%? 33%?
I'm not going through all the lines of code to determine if it's 30 or 60%. That's just not worth the effort and there will be still uncertainty by not knowing his exact beakers per turn and when his last research decision was.
You cannot base a strategy on setting 60% = sure, 30% = sure not. At least I will not do that.

But generally, I think it pretty likely that JC will have longbows before he is dead. He might research it now, or start it once he finished a cheaper tech by research, trade or gift.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 11:50 AM
I'm not going through all the lines of code to determine if it's 30 or 60%. That's just not worth the effort and there will be still uncertainty by not knowing his exact beakers per turn and when his last research decision was.


No problem, I will glady have a try myself. :) Any hints on where to look?

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 12:29 PM
On JC's chances on getting stronger units...


Between T85 and T95 JC has gained Currency, CoL, and Construction. He might have traded for some of these techs. Is there a way to tell, or to estimate his science rate?

He can now research CS, Feudalism, Metal Casting, Compass, Philosophy, Theology, and maybe something else?. What are his preferences here?JC's GNP is about equal to Liz's and W's. I have him researching at about 85:science: per turn, not including his 1.3 factor. That would mean 6 turns for MC, 9 for Feudalism, 10 for CS. It appears he self-researched COnstruction on T88 and got CoL and Currency in trade on T90. If that's all true, he's working on Feudalism or CS and will finish them on T97 or T98. Theology, Compass, and MC would have been done by T95.

Our 2 cats can bombard Antium city defenses on T101 with axe protection.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 12:35 PM
No problem, I will glady have a try myself. :) Any hints on where to look?
CvPlayerAI::AI_bestTech

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 12:44 PM
CvPlayerAI::AI_bestTech

Doesn't look so complicated... :lol: :lol: :lol:





Though I stumbled on another post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5115041&postcount=38) while searching the forums.

I take it there is a certain value calculated for each tech based on tech and leader flavors, then a bunch of modifiers as in CvPlayerAI::AI_bestTech, and finally a 0-1999 random number added to each tech. The highest one is selected. Is this anywhere near the truth? :)

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 12:59 PM
JC's GNP is about equal to Liz's and W's. I have him researching at about 85:science: per turn, not including his 1.3 factor. That would mean 6 turns for MC, 9 for Feudalism, 10 for CS. It appears he self-researched COnstruction on T88 and got CoL and Currency in trade on T90. If that's all true, he's working on Feudalism or CS and will finish them on T97 or T98. Theology, Compass, and MC would have been done by T95.

Our 2 cats can bombard Antium city defenses on T101 with axe protection.

So it's either CS or Feudalism. If JC researches CS he is sooo dead. No new units until earliest T107. Feudalism would make KK's job a bit more challenging though.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 01:10 PM
I take it there is a certain value calculated for each tech based on tech and leader flavors, then a bunch of modifiers as in CvPlayerAI::AI_bestTech, and finally a 0-1999 random number added to each tech. The highest one is selected. Is this anywhere near the truth? :)

It's near but not the total truth. Techs enabling wonders add another random. Techs enabling civics depend on the civics value for the civ at this time, which is another of these functions which add up a lot of modifiers to get to a final value.
And before looking for the highest, the value is scaled with the number of turns needed to research it, so more expensive techs take a hit.
And even if you have all this right, the calculation of the probability is still not straight forward.
You have to evaluate the relative probabilities of one tech to all the others to be able to get a final probability number.

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 01:11 PM
So it's either CS or Feudalism. If JC researches CS he is sooo dead. No new units until earliest T107. Feudalism would make KK's job a bit more challenging though.Btw, that's assuming he's researching at 100%. So he may go a turn or two slower (or I may be all wrong, though I don't think so.)

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 01:30 PM
If JC researches CS he is sooo dead.
Why? Was Fred sooo dead defending only with archers and a few left over metal units, against swords, elephants and cats.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 01:37 PM
Why? Was Fred sooo dead defending only with archers and a few left over metal units, against swords, elephants and cats.

Berlin was captured in 5 turns...

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 01:41 PM
Berlin was captured in 5 turns...
and then the offense came to standstill for a looong time.
No question that either KK or Asoka had the capability to take Hamburg, if they were able to use a halfway decent strategy. But the AI is not capable of that.
And Hamburg is a very low production city. Antium and Rome play in a different class.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 01:52 PM
JC's GNP is about equal to Liz's and W's. I have him researching at about 85:science: per turn, not including his 1.3 factor. That would mean 6 turns for MC, 9 for Feudalism, 10 for CS. It appears he self-researched COnstruction on T88 and got CoL and Currency in trade on T90. If that's all true, he's working on Feudalism or CS and will finish them on T97 or T98. Theology, Compass, and MC would have been done by T95.

What about Alex then? He can research the same techs as JC, plus Music.

Erkon
Jun 04, 2008, 02:19 PM
If I understand LC/klarius/FiveAces correct, you want KK to attack Alex after KK has DoP'ed Fred. Right after the Alex-war (when we have units close to JC), we get KK to DoW JC. Is that correct?

Would it not be better if we left KK alone for a few turns, while JC is wasting units on Alex & Isabella, and then get KK to DoW on JC? Around T100-105 perhaps? Is there really a significant risk that KK declares on his own on wrong AI? I have a vague memory of klarius suggesting we let KK live in peace a few turns, but that was several pages ago...

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 02:26 PM
What about Alex then? He can research the same techs as JC, plus Music.In a previous post, I calculated that Alex would get Feudalism in about 10t at the earliest.

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 02:29 PM
If I understand LC/klarius/FiveAces correct, you want KK to attack Alex after KK has DoP'ed Fred. Right after the Alex-war (when we have units close to JC), we get KK to DoW JC. Is that correct?

Would it not be better if we left KK alone for a few turns, while JC is wasting units on Alex & Isabella, and then get KK to DoW on JC? Around T100-105 perhaps? Is there really a significant risk that KK declares on his own on wrong AI? I have a vague memory of klarius suggesting we let KK live in peace a few turns, but that was several pages ago...That's the essenceof the problem with KK DoWing Alex. He won't now because he's friendly. We'll be able to convert him to Hinduism on T97 or T98, assuming 2 of our 3 missionaries find suitable followers, thus lowering KK down to Pleased. But by T99, ALex will be back up to Friendly with KK and KK won't chnage his mind anymore.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 02:43 PM
That's the essenceof the problem with KK DoWing Alex. He won't now because he's friendly. We'll be able to convert him to Hinduism on T97 or T98, assuming 2 of our 3 missionaries find suitable followers, thus lowering KK down to Pleased. But by T99, ALex will be back up to Friendly with KK and KK won't chnage his mind anymore.

So if KK hasn't made peace with Freddie in the next 4 turns then Alex is a lost cause?

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 02:51 PM
So if KK hasn't made peace with Freddie in the next 4 turns then Alex is a lost cause?No, Freddie is. :lol: That's why klarius was saying Fred's not crucial right now. We would just bribe KK to DoP Fred.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 02:51 PM
Btw, that's assuming he's researching at 100%. So he may go a turn or two slower (or I may be all wrong, though I don't think so.)

So sometime around T97-99 JC might get Feudalism. IF we want KK to dow on JC anytime soon it would be helpful if JC's attack archers have moved into Isabellas culture before he is able to upgrade them. That would speak for setting JC on Isabella already now.

Please remind me, if we give JC some cash to get him to pleased, is it then enough with Philosophy for starting a war against Isabella?

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 02:56 PM
No, Freddie is. :lol: That's why klarius was saying Fred's not crucial right now.

Yeah, I forgot that we can bribe KK to make peace. But that is not in the PPP... :)

Erkon
Jun 04, 2008, 03:01 PM
That's the essenceof the problem with KK DoWing Alex. He won't now because he's friendly. We'll be able to convert him to Hinduism on T97 or T98, assuming 2 of our 3 missionaries find suitable followers, thus lowering KK down to Pleased. But by T99, ALex will be back up to Friendly with KK and KK won't chnage his mind anymore.

Hmm, that was not really what I asked for, was it? :lol:

Let's rephrase: when do you three guys prefer KK to declare on JC?

Around T100-105?
Around T105-110?
Around T110-115?

It's reasonable to believe it will take KK around 10 turns to grab all JC cities if KK has good units and we help him. Then it takes another 5 turns to get Madrid. Asoka can then be declared on a few turns later (between 15 and 20 turns after initial DoW on JC).

I understand the logic with KK attacking Alex (which will be an easy target). I support KK => Alex in T98 unless it will delay a strong attack against JC. Which means that KK has to end his war against Alex well before T110, else KK will not be able to attack JC on T110 (which may even be a bit late).

The real question we have to answer is this: will KK => Alex speed up the domination date? I would say "yes" if KK captures Sparta with few losses AND can start the JC war as soon as we arrive at JC-lands with our cats. Else the KK => Alex war will delay the domination date. JC => Isabella => Asoka is the critical line. Alex cities are not on the critical line. Alex, Elisabeth, Washington cities will all fall in ten turns, as long as KK has Cuzco. It will most probably be possible to bribe Alex against Elisabeth/Washington after the PA-date to weaken all three of them. Which means it would be clever to keep Alex strong in order to weaken Elisabeth/Washington....

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 03:58 PM
So sometime around T97-99 JC might get Feudalism. IF we want KK to dow on JC anytime soon it would be helpful if JC's attack archers have moved into Isabellas culture before he is able to upgrade them. That would speak for setting JC on Isabella already now. JC was at war with HC for about 25 turns and he still has his metal. Why do you suppose he has any attack archers left?

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 03:59 PM
JC was at war with HC for about 25 turns and he still has his metal. Why do you suppose he has any attack archers left?

I dunno, did we ever see him lose any? :dunno:

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 04:02 PM
Let's rephrase: when do you three guys prefer KK to declare on JC?

Around T100-105?
Around T105-110?
Around T110-115?

It's reasonable to believe it will take KK around 10 turns to grab all JC cities if KK has good units and we help him. Then it takes another 5 turns to get Madrid. Asoka can then be declared on a few turns later (between 15 and 20 turns after initial DoW on JC).

I understand the logic with KK attacking Alex (which will be an easy target). I support KK => Alex in T98 unless it will delay a strong attack against JC. Which means that KK has to end his war against Alex well before T110, else KK will not be able to attack JC on T110 (which may even be a bit late).
I've posted a number of times that we could have a SoD down at JC's southern iron by T115-120, depending on whether or not we delay Oxford to T108.

How in the world do you plan to 'help' KK by T105 or T110?

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 04:03 PM
I dunno, did we ever see him lose any? :dunno:Let me put it this way: If he didn't send them to suicide on HC, why would he send them on Izzy?

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 04:18 PM
if KK captures Sparta with few losses Sparta is on a hill. Not happening.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 04:25 PM
I would mainly like to be flexible.
And KK-Alex with JC going in first is flexible. We can call off KK after Sparta and send him after JC, if we think that works then. The years of peace are then away and together with different religion, we might (or not :crazyeye:), get another chance for a war.
Or we think it pays to go for Athens also, which then even might fall to JC to be retaken by KK immediately.
Or the whole picture changes, by new diplomatic developments.

In any case, I want the next 2 turns done, all tech trades in the bag, how I hope they will work. Watch all DoPs and DoWs which happen w/o us doing anything. Look if we can get 2 Hindu cities with KK.
Then decide what to do, not now w/o even knowing if we have machinery, or if Alex is an option at all. Or if JC decides to DoW somebody on his own in the meantime or ...

LowtherCastle
Jun 04, 2008, 04:52 PM
I'll play the Angel's Advocate for Gnejs.

Our Axe pair/cat pair can be at JC's far southern iron bombarding by T104. We can additionally have 4 cats protected by a choko ready to bombard Cuzco on T106. But the latter requires:

T95 cat
T96 HE
T97 archer (upgraded on silver for 125:commerce:)
T98 cat
T99 cat
T100 cat
T101 choko
T102 choko
T103 choko
T104 choko
T105 forge(1t)
T106 univ(1t-chop-3pop-chop)
T107 Oxford(1t-chop)

It works. I tried it. But it has to be flawless. Of course, none of the above rules out DoWing Alex. It just means we wouldn't help with that war.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 04:59 PM
Well, I'm back to favor my initial build sequence.
FiveAces' does not work. It works with archer-cat, but still needs hard starvation to build Oxford in 2, greatly reducing food and commerce afterwards.
LC's is a possibility, but I rather would like to have higher research towards lib, to trade with edu earlier if needed.

Gnejs
Jun 04, 2008, 05:30 PM
And the debate goes on...

The one uncontroversal move I can think of this turn is to move the southernmost missionary 4 SE. That way we can have a look both inside Sparta and Berlin. Might help us judge how KK would fare against Alex.
(We may possibly also move the Cat N of Hamburg one SE to see if Asoka has any units inbound)

The missionary could have a look inside Antium next turn if we still can't make up our mind.

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 05:36 PM
Now, if the only help we give JC in the south is our existing cats and axes, I don't see the need to go wild on units now.
Just make that 3 cats and an upgraded mace for my build sequence at Cuzco. If 2 axes and 2 cats are enough for JC's core with 2 high production cities this should be plenty for Cuzco :).

klarius
Jun 04, 2008, 05:43 PM
Our Axe pair/cat pair can be at JC's far southern iron bombarding by T104.
Why are you so fixated on this iron, BTW? JC has two iron sources. With such weak forces, I would rather go for Antium first.

Edit:
And still another question. What do you want to do with all the choks you're building in sequence.
You don't have cats for the next target whoever it is, then. So the earlier choks don't help as we anyway first need another batch of cats. And that fits nicely with the need to grow after the pop-rush.

FiveAces
Jun 04, 2008, 11:56 PM
Ok as I see it then, there's 2 options for the PPP (I'm not in favor of any options without early forge+harbor):

1) klarius's build order, slotting in another cat to get the necessary overflow
2) LC's build order producing more units, hooking up the iron faster, but delaying Oxford.

As they are the same for the first 2 turns and that's also when we will complete our trading it might make sense to play these first and then continue discussion. Downside would be we eliminate the option to bribe JC this turn.

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 12:03 AM
Trying to summarize:

- Alex has to be now or after the PA. Setting KK on Alex now requires peace with Fred and KK becoming hindu.

- Giving Fred peace now is a big wate. We have just brought KK and Asoka on him.

- JC is too strong now (or KK too small) to set up a JC-KK war now. Our units won't be able to help in a looong time (2Axe+1Cat is not helping at all).

- Converting KK to hindu might be a one way decision. Is it the right time now? Won't we find that in 40 turns some hinduist is much too friendly with KK and we have to wait after the PA for him?

- We think we have agreed that wars will take longer than research. But we haven't. Erkon talks about 10 turns wars (which I don't have confidence on in the next 2-3 turnsets).

- Another easy target for KK is Spain. But KK conquering Madrid would take away the posibility of KK becoming hindu.

- We haven't agreed on diversion wars. Some of us think they are useful since they distract attacking units and they bring in some pillaging. Some of us think they only serve to force Deity AI to produce more units and in addition they accelerate the global research rate, since we need to give techs for bribing; and the worst of all, someone can take cities that should have been KK's.

- We haven't agreed on our stack composition. LC seems to be thinking about a 25% Cats stack (75% chokos). I am thinking about 75%-90% Cats stacks. IMO, the longest part of the war will be taking the Cats in position and bombarding down the defenses. Then waiting for the right time to attack and suiciding some (anytype) units to leave an easy prey to KK won't take so long.

Now, what do we do out of it all?

Hope this helps.

Gnejs
Jun 05, 2008, 12:05 AM
Ok as I see it then, there's 2 options for the PPP (I'm not in favor of any options without early forge+harbor):

1) klarius's build order, slotting in another cat to get the necessary overflow
2) LC's build order producing more units, hooking up the iron faster, but delaying Oxford.

As they are the same for the first 2 turns and that's also when we will complete our trading it might make sense to play these first and then continue discussion. Downside would be we eliminate the option to bribe JC this turn.

Ok, I can accept this provided we keep all options open. That means scouting Sparta-Berlin-Antium-Karakorum/or/Rome with a missionary and not converting JC. Spreading religion is fine as long as we have a look in those cities first.

Btw, I think I prefer the earlier Oxford.

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 12:06 AM
As they are the same for the first 2 turns and that's also when we will complete our trading it might make sense to play these first and then continue discussion. Downside would be we eliminate the option to bribe JC this turn.

I favour playing those 2 turns. Just don't convert KK. If needed, that would be the first action after the break.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 01:20 AM
Ok as I see it then, there's 2 options for the PPP (I'm not in favor of any options without early forge+harbor):

1) klarius's build order, slotting in another cat to get the necessary overflow
2) LC's build order producing more units, hooking up the iron faster, but delaying Oxford.

As they are the same for the first 2 turns and that's also when we will complete our trading it might make sense to play these first and then continue discussion. Downside would be we eliminate the option to bribe JC this turn.Actually, exactly these two options are different the first two turns. To hook up iron fast, the worker on the stone goes to the iron on T95 instead of quarrying right now.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 01:38 AM
Why are you so fixated on this iron, BTW? JC has two iron sources. With such weak forces, I would rather go for Antium first.Why were you so fixated on buiding 2 axes to protect Murkyopolis? :mischief: Btw, JC will have 3 sources of iron by the time we DoW (Cuzco).

My reasons for wanting my southern iron fix:
1. Resource denial (see War Academy, section on War Strategy ;))
2. Protect Beshbalik (may have as few as 2 defenders and low-hammer city).
3. AIs are idiots when defending their own cities.
4. Prevent JC from pillaging KK back to the Stone Age.
5. Attack JC swiftly and with minimal pillaging of his roads.
EDIT: 6. I would rather go for Rome, Antium, and Cuzco all at once.

Edit:
What do you want to do with all the choks you're building in sequence.
You don't have cats for the next target whoever it is, then. So the earlier choks don't help as we anyway first need another batch of cats. And that fits nicely with the need to grow after the pop-rush.:aargh: Am I being served Red Herring for breakfast? :lol:I put the chokos in the production queue as placeholders. Obviously we need 4 cats per catstack, prefereably double-promoted asap. I believe I have been advocating 1-2 cat stacks from Day One. But those catstacks need defenders, now and when we're using four 0.5HP double-promoted city-defense killers to kill off the city defenses. Why make axes if chokos can double as defenders and suiciders?

Connecting our iron early means we could build archer-archer-cat-cat-cat-cat if we had enough cash and wanted to grow like mushrooms. Without the iron we need to have useless axes/maces as defenders. (Why useless? Because KK builds all the maces. If we want more maces, we have KK capture more mace-producing cities.)

But don't forget, when we arrived at Hamburg, its city defenses were already down to 6%. So we may end up needing more chokos than cats. But sure, we start with plenty of protected cats. If you don't want to protect our cats, then say that clearly now. ;)

Hm...I seem to be forgetting something...oh yeah...let's see, T96 copper to JC for cows...T107 connect iron...hmm...what if ALex sends a 4stack of CI archers to pillage us back to the Stone Age?

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 01:55 AM
Let it Be Carved in Stone

An LC CatStack consists of:4 cats for destroying city defenses
4 suiciders
1-2 defendersAn LC CatStack is designed to soften up 1 city for immediate capture by PA partner. Suiciders and defenders are replaced, as needed, for each new city. Chokos can double as suiciders and defenders.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 02:26 AM
My version of jesusin's very helpful summary:

- Alex has to be now or after the PA. Setting KK on Alex now requires peace with Fred and KK becoming hindu.

- Giving Fred peace now is a big waste. We have just brought KK and Asoka on him. KK and Asoka have been at war with Fred for 17 turns. Last war, Asoka DoPed after 16 turns, KK DoPed after 23 turns, so they are both likely to DoP any time, as klarius has repeatedly pointed out. Ergo, sending more units here may be the biggest waste of all.

- Is JC too strong now (or KK too small) to set up a JC-KK war now? Our units won't be able to help in a looong time (2Axe + 1 2 Cats is not helping at all). 2axe + 2 cats can be extremely helpful, in this particular situation, if you look carefully at the map between Rome and Beshbalik. This is in the context of both cities probably having only defenders at the start of the war.

- Converting KK to hindu might be a one way decision. Is it the right time now? Won't we find that in 40 turns some hinduist is much too friendly with KK and we have to wait after the PA for him?

- We think we have agreed that wars will take longer than research. But we haven't. Erkon talks about 10 turns wars (which I don't have confidence on in the next 2-3 turnsets).

- Another easy target for KK is Spain. But KK conquering Madrid would take away the posibility of KK becoming hindu.

- We haven't agreed on diversion wars. Some of us think they are useful since they distract attacking units and they bring in some pillaging. Some of us think they only serve to force Deity AI to produce more units and in addition they accelerate the global research rate, since we need to give techs for bribing; and the worst of all, someone can take cities that should have been KK's. AIs are programmed to have 2-3 city defenders. Any AIs that haven't been at war yet, on this crowded map, have built a stack of units simply because they had nothing else to build. A 'diversionary' war is useful simply to eliminate a stack the the AIs have 'accidentally.' Any new units they build they'll send to war (or they might build some units for happiness under HeredRule).

- We haven't agreed on our stack composition. LC seems to be thinking about a 25% Cats stack (75% chokos). I am thinking about 75%-90% Cats stacks. IMO, the longest part of the war will be taking the Cats in position and bombarding down the defenses. Then waiting for the right time to attack and suiciding some (anytype) units to leave an easy prey to KK won't take so long. Stack: 4 cats + 4 suiciders + 1-2 defenders (if not chokos).

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 02:55 AM
Let it Be Carved in Stone

An LC CatStack consists of:4 cats for destroying city defenses
4 suiciders
1-2 defendersAn LC CatStack is designed to soften up 1 city for immediate capture by PA partner. Suiciders and defenders are replaced, as needed, for each new city. Chokos can double as suiciders and defenders.

jesusin's stack: 7Cats + 1or2Chokos
It takes down defenses in 1t. Suiciders being replaced.

jesusin's quickstack: 4Cats + 1or2Chokos
It needs quicker replacements, or loses would be too many to keep the stack working.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 03:17 AM
jesusin's stack: 7Cats + 1or2Chokos
It takes down defenses in 1t. Suiciders being replaced.I'm fine with your stack for starters, because it should have 4 double-promoted cats after 2-4 cities. Btw, are those chokos wooden or iron? :p (In other words: if the choko is the 5th or 8th unit built, it's not much of a defender. It needs to be the first unit out.)

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 03:29 AM
I'm fine with your stack for starters, because it should have 4 double-promoted cats after 2-4 cities. Btw, are those chokos wooden or iron? :p (In other words: if the choko is the 5th or 8th unit built, it's not much of a defender. It needs to be the first unit out.)

First 2 ministacks will do with one of the existing Axes each.

From then on, I don't care if you consider the Choko the last of the previous stack or the first of the next stack :p
'The last will be the first' Jesuschrist

Anyway, if I were you (eeek) I wouldn't have agreed so quick with a peacemonger's-suggested stack composition ;)

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 03:32 AM
for starters,

See what you've done: now I am hungry (again).
Time to think about my third breakfast...

Gnejs
Jun 05, 2008, 03:47 AM
Actually, exactly these two options are different the first two turns. To hook up iron fast, the worker on the stone goes to the iron on T95 instead of quarrying right now.

Gaaah! Can't we agree on anything? :crazyeye:

Ok, we have two decisions:
A. Alex or JC
B. Prioritize units or prioritize Oxford

A is the big one, but B depends to some extent on A.

Can we now ask FiveAces to take a peek in Sparta and Berlin and then try to make some decisions?

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 04:03 AM
Actually, exactly these two options are different the first two turns. To hook up iron fast, the worker on the stone goes to the iron on T95 instead of quarrying right now.

Why is connecting Iron so important in your plan?
Would your plan be too much affected if we move our workers according to the other plan for 2 turns?

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 04:13 AM
I prefer reality to theory.

We need 2 or 3 roads max to have a fast route south to Rome.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179127&stc=1&d=1212656813

-----------------------------------------------

Because of KK's culture, we have rapid access to JC's pivotal southern iron tile:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179128&stc=1&d=1212656846

If JC's CI Praets attack our CII axes across the river from Rome, our defenders have a 72.6% chance of winning.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 04:19 AM
Why is connecting Iron so important in your plan?
Would your plan be too much affected if we move our workers according to the other plan for 2 turns?This would connect iron 1 turn later. T102 instead of T101.

The importance lies in us having defenders for our cats ( and defenders for Murky). If we're satisfied with sending off the 2 axes we have in Murky, okay. But after T96 Trade Copper to JC, we cannot upgrade our warriors to maces, we cannot upgrade our axes to maces, we cannot build axes, and we cannot build maces. Not until we connect iron or cancel the copper deal on T106.

jesusin
Jun 05, 2008, 04:43 AM
This would connect iron 1 turn later. T102 instead of T101.

The importance lies in us having defenders for our cats ( and defenders for Murky). If we're satisfied with sending off the 2 axes we have in Murky, okay. But after T96 Trade Copper to JC, we cannot upgrade our warriors to maces, we cannot upgrade our axes to maces, we cannot build axes, and we cannot build maces. Not until we connect iron or cancel the copper deal on T106.

We have 2 Axes already on the field. No need to move Murkopolis axes. :confused:

klarius
Jun 05, 2008, 05:52 AM
@LC: How do yo remove the guard on your key tile? It's 99% probability that there is a unit on this tile, which will not move.

Your road is through German territory, so you need Fred either dead or open borders.

You can not have war with Alex or need additional guards for the worker(s).

And you can not have JC-Alex war even if it would be possible w/o us DoWing, as otherwise the existing road at Cuzco is likely to be lost.

klarius
Jun 05, 2008, 06:16 AM
- Giving Fred peace now is a big wate. We have just brought KK and Asoka on him.

The war is about 20 turns old, it will anyway not last much longer probably and the suicide trickle of KK is doubtful to help.

- Converting KK to hindu might be a one way decision. Is it the right time now? Won't we find that in 40 turns some hinduist is much too friendly with KK and we have to wait after the PA for him?

That he ever gets friendly with the peaceniks is unlikely. He needs +13-+15 with them because of the hidden factors.
If he captures Madrid he will convert back.
Then there is still free religion, which we anyway would like him to have at some time for culture. No need to worry now.


- But KK conquering Madrid would take away the posibility of KK becoming hindu.

Not true. It just makes the bribe much more expensive and he will convert back as soon as he can (unless we can make him take Bombay also).

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 06:40 AM
@LC: How do yo remove the guard on your key tile? It's 99% probability that there is a unit on this tile, which will not move.

Your road is through German territory, so you need Fred either dead or open borders.

You can not have war with Alex or need additional guards for the worker(s).

And you can not have JC-Alex war even if it would be possible w/o us DoWing, as otherwise the existing road at Cuzco is likely to be lost.Been there, thought about all that.

1. Remove him by force, if KK doesn't beat us to it.
2. OBs. Fred'll do it at Annoyed. DoW again with Fred no problem.
3. The worker 'guards' will be early units traveling through.
4. JC has 3 praets, an axe and 2 spears in Cuzco. If Alex does any pillaging, it will only be early on, so we can rebild the road if we have too. Just another turn.

Anyway, we need those roads no matter when we DoW JC, so I don't know what your point is.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 07:08 AM
Ok, we have two decisions:
A. Alex or JC
B. Prioritize units or prioritize Oxford

A is the big one, but B depends to some extent on A.Historical Fact: When Gnejs decided to start his turnset by building 2 axes instead of the theater, after a long debate on the topic, those two axes were immediately able to score us a worker.

The more I think about it, the more I think the real question is: Do we have any reason to not start building units now? (with HE on T96, of course)

Since no one seems concerned about us doing the Lib Slingshot, the only credible argument against it that I remember is klarius saying he wants Educ available sooner for potential trading. The only use I see for early Education would be Engineering +1 road movement, so when will Asoka or Liz research that?

Discredited arguments:
- can't do the MM
- lack of growth
- unhealthiness
- unhappiness
- faster to Communism/PA

We spent 5 turns building a monastery and 3 missionaries instead of units. Now we're proposing to build the forge and harbor also instead of units. Meanwhile, we're talking about spending valuable techs to get AIs to DoW each other and we're arguing about who to DoW, even though we won't be doing much to help KK until T106+.

Comparison of klarius' plan vs. units now plan (w/o Engineering):

Klarius' Plan
T106 3 cats+axe ready to bombard Cuzco or Athens;
T108 City defenses 0% with 2 of 4 cats ready to suicide; or
T109 4 of 5 cats can suicide
T110 5 of 6 cats can suicide
..units coming every turn

Units Now Plan
T106 4 cats+choko ready to bombard Cuzco or Athens;
T107 City defenses 0% with 3 suiciders available (e.g., 1 cat + 2 chokos)
T108 4 cats + 3 chokos (or 6 cats + 1 choko, etc.) ready to suicide
T109 8 suiciders
T110 9 suiciders available
...4-turn delay, then units coming every turn

So there is a clear difference betwene the two plans. klarius' plan has a full-fledged, operational stack in position starting T111-112. The units now plan has a full-fledged, operational stack in position starting T108-109.

If we have reason to believe we'll be able to get Engineering by T104, then I think klarius plan is better.

(Oh, and btw, FiveAces Plan can be fine-tuned to work, without serious starvation, and is a perfectly legitmate option. It gets us iron 3 turns sooner plus a forest at the cost of 1 cat.)

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 07:22 AM
We have 2 Axes already on the field. No need to move Murkopolis axes. :confused:Man, this discussion is probably creating more confusion than clarity. I talking about using that axe pair and the two cats for further south.

FiveAces
Jun 05, 2008, 07:50 AM
Man, this discussion is probably creating more confusion than clarity. I talking about using that axe pair and the two cats for further south.

Seconded. Let me try to build on previous summaries by asking questions that hopefully when answered will result in the final PPP. I hope this doesn't cause any more confusion. Apologize if that's the case.

1) Do we DOW Alex no later than t98?
2) Do we DOW JC and call in KK on ~t110-115?
3) Do we accelerate availibility of the first stack? (units-now vs. klarius/FiveAces plans)
4) Where do we send our units initially?

and most importantly:
5) What information do we need to make better decisions on 1-4 and how do we get that information?

These are strategic questions. They need to be answered before tactical ones. The strategy should drive the tactics, not the other way around. For example, if we decide to send our units to Antium, then that's what we need to do. We figure out the best way to do it (like maybe building roads) afterwards. But we don't say that because we need to build roads, we shouldn't go to Antium.

EDIT: If however there is no way to tactically implement a strategy, then we do need a new one.

Gnejs
Jun 05, 2008, 08:44 AM
Seconded. Let me try to build on previous summaries by asking questions that hopefully when answered will result in the final PPP. I hope this doesn't cause any more confusion. Apologize if that's the case.

1) Do we DOW Alex no later than t98?
2) Do we DOW JC and call in KK on ~t110-115?
3) Do we accelerate availibility of the first stack? (units-now vs. klarius/FiveAces plans)
4) Where do we send our units initially?

and most importantly:
5) What information do we need to make better decisions on 1-4 and how do we get that information?

These are strategic questions. They need to be answered before tactical ones. The strategy should drive the tactics, not the other way around. For example, if we decide to send our units to Antium, then that's what we need to do. We figure out the best way to do it (like maybe building roads) afterwards. But we don't say that because we need to build roads, we shouldn't go to Antium.

EDIT: If however there is no way to tactically implement a strategy, then we do need a new one.

5) I have suggested scouting Sparta and Berlin this turn. It is a totally uncontroversial move that will gain us some info at no cost and help us better estimate KK's chances at Sparta. Basically, I want to know if Alex has 3 or 30 units in Sparta and if KK has any free units in the Berlin area. Nobody has commented on this, but I suggest that you go ahead and do it immediately.

Gnejs
Jun 05, 2008, 08:59 AM
Since no one seems concerned about us doing the Lib Slingshot, the only credible argument against it that I remember is klarius saying he wants Educ available sooner for potential trading. The only use I see for early Education would be Engineering +1 road movement, so when will Asoka or Liz research that?

Discredited arguments:
- ...
- faster to Communism/PA


How do you figure that delaying Oxford 4 turns does not delay the PA?

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 09:10 AM
How do you figure that delaying Oxford 4 turns does not delay the PA?First of all, it only delays Lib by aobut 3 turns. It enables us to pop 2 GSes for PP and SciMeth. Of course, we may pop 2 GAs. But there's also the delayed loss of the monastery and free scientists before SciMeth. And if we pop PP, we get a couple more base coins earlier. I just think it balances out to a difference of a couple of turns or less. With 2 GSes it may even be faster.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 09:12 AM
5) I have suggested scouting Sparta and Berlin this turn. It is a totally uncontroversial move that will gain us some info at no cost and help us better estimate KK's chances at Sparta. Basically, I want to know if Alex has 3 or 30 units in Sparta and if KK has any free units in the Berlin area. Nobody has commented on this, but I suggest that you go ahead and do it immediately.It's a go with me.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 10:03 AM
I don't like anything I get, trying to get Oxford early.
My current favorite is similar to an old LC proposal.
Keeps it pretty simple :). There is quite some margin to repair mess-ups.

turn base hpt build extra
95 27 forge
96 26 harbor chop/rush
97 22 HE
98 18 cat
99 22 cat
100 22 cat
101 22 uni chop/rush(3)/chop
102 22 oxford chop

No strange units built and with forge and harbor we are much less dependent on the AI to trade us resources.If we're going with this version, there's a hammer missing, either on T96 or T97, to get HE done in 1 turn. Plus, the worker turns should be specified in advance to avoid mishap, because they're different than for FiveAces' plan.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 10:04 AM
frigging duplicate

klarius
Jun 05, 2008, 12:24 PM
Since no one seems concerned about us doing the Lib Slingshot, the only credible argument against it that I remember is klarius saying he wants Educ available sooner for potential trading. The only use I see for early Education would be Engineering +1 road movement, so when will Asoka or Liz research that?


Optics+DoW by Liz was the thing I was thinking of.

Erkon
Jun 05, 2008, 12:55 PM
I hereby withdraw my vote on the upcoming PPP. To me, it's apparent that the different choices (JC or Alex) are two variants that are equally good because it's not possible to convince anyone from one camp to cross over to the other camp. Since the peanut gallery cannot decide, it is up to the player (FiveAces) to state the overall goal (Alex or JC), and the rest of us helps him improve the details to achieve the strategy FiveAces has picked. I don't see any other exit from our discussion.

My main concern is that we follow a dedicated path, not jumping between two/three variants depending on the player of each TS. If we have sacrificed turns to build the misses, then they shall go to KK and plant the religion.

Gnejs
Jun 05, 2008, 01:17 PM
Do I detect a certain reluctance to let the debate rage on from our captain? :lol:

Anyway, scouting Sparta and Berlin is still something that should be done first.

FiveAces
Jun 05, 2008, 04:04 PM
Do I detect a certain reluctance to let the debate rage on from our captain? :lol:

Anyway, scouting Sparta and Berlin is still something that should be done first.

I will move the missionaries tomorrow morning 8-10 CET tomorrow morning and post. Assuming they do not see a gimongous stack in Sparta my decision will be to bribe KK to DOW Alex no later than t98.

If this is the ultimate decision (which is very likely) I think our next decisions are:

1) Do we bribe JC to DOW now, and who?
2) Do we do the units-now plan or some version of the klarius/FiveAces plan?
3) Where do we send the units that we have and those that we build?

My personal preferences are

1) Alex+Izzy.
2) If I can be convinced (say 70%+ probability) that KK will take a city with the units-now plan that he otherwise wouldn't have, I will do that in a hearbeat. Otherwise, I don't believe there is any reason to accelerate units.
3) We help KK with Alex at first, but then we start positioning units for a DOW on JC around t115.

LowtherCastle
Jun 05, 2008, 05:53 PM
I will move the missionaries tomorrow morning 8-10 CET tomorrow morning and post. Assuming they do not see a gimongous stack in Sparta my decision will be to bribe KK to DOW Alex no later than t98.

If this is the ultimate decision (which is very likely) I think our next decisions are:

1) Do we bribe JC to DOW now, and who?
2) Do we do the units-now plan or some version of the klarius/FiveAces plan?
3) Where do we send the units that we have and those that we build?

My personal preferences are

1) Alex+Izzy.
2) If I can be convinced (say 70%+ probability) that KK will take a city with the units-now plan that he otherwise wouldn't have, I will do that in a hearbeat. Otherwise, I don't believe there is any reason to accelerate units.
3) We help KK with Alex at first, but then we start positioning units for a DOW on JC around t115.Now that Erkon has pulled the plug on this conversation's respirator, I'll try to use my last few gasps economically... ;)

1) WHen do you mean by 'now'? (Because we can't bribe JC to DoW Alex without us DoWing Alex first...which comes after our missionaries do their thing.) I agree with Alex and Izzy.

2) I don't like the units-now plan anymore, because I have troubles with the harbor at the end. Here is a comparison of klarius' and yours. klarius' has more food, beakers, cottage-turns and an extra cat in exchange for a forest, 6 worker-turns and iron 3t sooner. My guess is that the food and +1 unit is the stronger move, but I'm not sure.

T108
kl FA
pop11 pop11
40/42f 33/42f
7 cats 5 cats
1 choko 2 chokos
+6 worker turns
+1 forest
+?:beakers: (forgot to count)
+?turns working the cottages (forgot to count)


3) One possibility: The two axes need 2 turns to heal no matter what and with the cats, can't bombard Sparta till T103 or Athens T104, so you could let them heal in place and see if they can help KK in two turns. If not, they could go with the cats to Alex.

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 01:44 AM
1) Nobody, pretty please
2) Oxford, as per klarius plan
3) Hamburg till peace, Alex then. As the dust starts to settle in Greece, to Rome.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 03:42 AM
I will move the missionaries tomorrow morning 8-10 CET tomorrow morning and post. Assuming they do not see a gimongous stack in Sparta my decision will be to bribe KK to DOW Alex no later than t98.What did they see? :)

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 03:46 AM
I haven't moved the missionary yet. Will update the PPP first. I'm going to use klarius's build order so I need to work it out along with the worker turns. LC - that's what I was thinking for the axes too and by JC->Alex/Izzy now I meant after the missionaries clear (or can be teleported).

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 04:34 AM
PPP updated: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6881391&postcount=1998

I have an unused worker turn standing in a forest. Is that necessary or can my workers be optimized?

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 05:30 AM
I will give my comments to the PPP once we know what Sparta looks like. Will continue to slack on the beach with a beer in my hand until then. :)

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 05:47 AM
PPP FiveAces turnset: t95-t104

Worker Actions
Wkr1: chop (1-2), move forest (3), chop (4-7), chop w deer (8), road/mine oron (9-10)move to iron (3), road iron (4), chop w deer (5-6), road iron (7-8), mine iron (9-10)
Wkr2: quarry (1-3), move E iron (4), chop (5-7), mine iron (8-10), twiddle thumbs (suggestions?)chop w deer(8), road iron (9-10)

City MM
T95: move 1 from coast to grass forest
T96: same, whip grass forest
T97: move from ph mine grass forest back to coast, (ph mine whipped)
T98: move from ph mine to coast
T99: move 1 from coast to ph mine
T100: samenew citizen + 2 coast whipped, plain cottage move to ph mine
T101: whip new citizen + 2 coast plain cottage move to ph minemove grass cottage to ph forest
T102 onward: max food/commerce while building 1 turn cat move from ph mine and forest back to cottages
T103: max food/commerce while building 1 turn cat
T104: max food/commerce while building 1 turn choku
Note: Just get rid of the strikeouts and old garbage. This is your final update and that stuff makes it really hard to read. No one needs it anymore.

Worker Actions
Wkr1: chop (1-2), chop w deer(3), move forest(4), chop(5-7), move toward iron (8)...

City MM
T95: move 1 from coast to grass forest Base Production = 27h
T96: same, whip grass forest whip coast <-- You need 1 more hammer for HE, either this turn or next. Base prod = 27h
T97: move from ph mine to coast and move from forest grass to coast = 22h
T98: move from ph mine to coast = 18h
T99: move 1 from coast to ph mine = 22h
T100: same = 22h
T101: whip new citizen (+ 2 coast plain cottage move to ph mine) Whip 2 coast and either cottage <-- Still pop12 before 3pop. Base prod = 21h or 22h
T102 onward: max food/commerce while building 1 turn cat = 22h (this turn only)

I added the Base Production amounts because I find it much easier to use them when playing.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 05:49 AM
I will give my comments to the PPP once we know what Sparta looks like. Will continue to slack on the beach with a beer in my hand until then. :)

Ok ok I moved the miss 1SE. Sparta has 1 CII Sword, 5 archers (2 unpromoted, 1CGI, 2CI), 2 axes (melee/cover), 1 medic phalanx and 1 unpromoted cat.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 06:30 AM
Great. Unless berlin and tiwanaku are almost empty we don't need to bring in jc

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 07:36 AM
Great. Unless berlin and tiwanaku are almost empty we don't need to bring in jc

Not sure about that - JC might be able to take Madrid then. Or did you mean to leave him at peace?

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 07:50 AM
If nobody has any objections I'd like to go ahead and play up to t97 to see if the trades happen as we hope and if KK makes peace with Freddy.

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 07:55 AM
Good luck!

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 08:26 AM
Not sure about that - JC might be able to take Madrid then. Or did you mean to leave him at peace?

Yes, leave him at peace. We can set him on Isa prior to our dow on him later.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 08:28 AM
If nobody has any objections I'd like to go ahead and play up to t97 to see if the trades happen as we hope and if KK makes peace with Freddy.

Go ahead. Good luck!

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 09:16 AM
Great. Unless berlin and tiwanaku are almost empty we don't need to bring in jc

Finished moving the miss. Berlin's definitely not empty - it has 9 units in it. Why didn't he move 6 of them to hamburg :cry: Anyway I agree with you that we don't need to bring JC in. The Berlin stack plus whatever KK has in tiwanuku should be enough to take out Alex with our help.

Will continue the turn for real in a few minutes.

EDIT: Final updates to PPP done as well

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 09:29 AM
So what is Alex total unit count then?

4 archers at Hamburg
1 archer on silk
8 archers in Athens
1 phalanx in Athens
1 sword in Sparta
5 archers in Sparta
2 axes in Sparta
1 phalanx in Sparta
1 cat in sparta
(probably some unit on the iron)

I guess most of the stack in Sparta is Alex attack force. They will probably leave for Tiwanaku or Berlin as soon as KK dows.

Lets hope LC is right and KK makes it to Sparta before Alex gets Longbows. :)

Erkon
Jun 06, 2008, 09:42 AM
PPP updated: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6881391&postcount=1998

I have an unused worker turn standing in a forest. Is that necessary or can my workers be optimized?

Impressive! The quality of the PPP is outstanding!! :goodjob: If anything goes wrong, it's the fault of the Peanut Gallery :lol:

But you missed one thing: avoid the plank

And BTW, did anyone notice the name of the GS that was used for the Academy? (end of my turn set) :confused:

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 09:47 AM
I still think we should let JC DoW Alex so that all these free units (including the ones around Hamburg), don't go for KK to pillage.
It will also give a negative attitude point for KK->JC.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 09:48 AM
And BTW, did anyone notice the name of the GS that was used for the Academy? (end of my turn set) :confused:

Erkon the stupid. No need to worry, we all saw it. :lol:

FiveAces, would you please keep track of Alex's and JC's tech progress each turn?

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 09:55 AM
FiveAces turnset report
t95-t104

t95 (500bc)
move h-miss 4SE scout sparta berlin. spart 1swd, 5arch, 2axe, 1 phx, 1 cat+3arch nearby. Berlin 3swd, 3axe, 1sp, 2arch, 2 axe 1W. Berlin units heavily promoted.
Liz - 40g friendly. trade paper for MC+20g
bulb GS, edu in 5
10g-> JC = pleased
units move as per PPP.

IBT: Zoraster born in Delhi. Izzy DOW's us. Stopping as per PPP. Asoka does not have machinery. Wash is not WFYABTA.

t96 (475bc)

h-miss scouts antium: 1 axe, 3 cats and 2 archers
trade cs to wash for cal, arch, mono and his map
trade cs+philo+30g to liz for compass+machinery
copper+2gpt to JC for gold+cows
crabs to Wash for 2gpt
units move per ppp
forge done, chop/rush harbor
cuzco has 3 praets, axe, 2 spear

IBT: Asoka has mach. Liz has Optics! JC has feud :( (not for trade); KK suicides his units SW hamburg, barely making a dent in the sword. moron.

t97 450bc
spread hindu to berlin and tinanuku. tiw only has swd, sp, arch. main stack has left Berlin but not sure where it is now strange
harbor done. HE in 1 turn
kk settler/2arch NNE of Hamburg can't raze though - abandoning and moving cat/axes to sparta. will come under fire from Alex this turn but should stay off the plank
kk to hindu, peace fred, 70g for machinery
DOW Alex
30g to JC for please
JC DOW Alex + 140g for philo

IBT: axes hold alex archer attacks, no new techs

t98 425bc
HE done
KK DOW Alex +map for philo
2 cats and 2 (wounded) axes unite, should be healed by reach sparta

IBT: liz has feud

t99 400bc
cat done
stack moving towards sparta

IBT: nothing

t100 375bc
research education, switch to liberalism in 11 turns
cat done

IBT: Asoka gets optics, drops to pleased, goes WFYABTA, DoP's with Fred; KK has feud

t101 350bc
cat done, moving now to athens in anticipation of sparta fall

IBT: JC asks to stop trading with Wash, we decline, still pleased. Alex has feud :( KK takes sparta!!!

t102 325bc
murk to size 10
uni done
h-miss scouts antium 2lb, 3 cat, axe

IBT: fred has feud, same value for edu

t103 300bc
lib in 5, karakorum is hindu, athens has 6 lb and phlanx, S stack moves into sparta to heal us and KK's units

IBT: walked plank. lost axe and cat N sparta.

t104: cat promotes to accuracy 2N sparta (cross fingers...) same value edu

IBT: lost the cat. damn. izzy completes chicken itza, education now feud +30g or optics+hbr+20g jesusin should prob trade for it now.

t105:
sparta cats go with kk's stack towards athens
northern ones move down, but I realize now I should have left those for jesusin. sorry. if I get another turnset i'll only play 9 turns.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 10:02 AM
Erkon the stupid. No need to worry, we all saw it. :lol:

FiveAces, would you please keep track of Alex's and JC's tech progress each turn?

Err how do I do that? You mean as new techs come up on the trade screen?

I haven't pressed enter, and I haven't asked JC to convert to hindu either. There is wisdom in klarius's point about the loose Alex units pillaging kk. I'm on the fence. I guess if I had to pick I'd say no to JC->Alex once missionaries are through. But that's a weak no. I can easily be convinced otherwise.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 10:05 AM
Erkon the stupid. No need to worry, we all saw it. :lol:I thought it started with a 'w'--something like Erkon the Wuss. :lol:

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 10:06 AM
So what is Alex total unit count then?

4 archers at Hamburg
1 archer on silk
8 archers in Athens
1 phalanx in Athens
1 sword in Sparta
5 archers in Sparta
2 axes in Sparta
1 phalanx in Sparta
1 cat in sparta
(probably some unit on the iron)

I guess most of the stack in Sparta is Alex attack force. They will probably leave for Tiwanaku or Berlin as soon as KK dows.

Lets hope LC is right and KK makes it to Sparta before Alex gets Longbows. :)

there's an archer on the iron and 2 more running around W of sparta's rice

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 10:09 AM
Are we talking about bribing JC on Alex now or after the misses get through?

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 10:09 AM
Err how do I do that? You mean as new techs come up on the trade screen?

Yes, just check the foreign advisor each turn. No news is also news...

I haven't pressed enter, and I haven't asked JC to convert to hindu either. There is wisdom in klarius's point about the loose Alex units pillaging kk. I'm on the fence. I guess if I had to pick I'd say no to JC->Alex once missionaries are through. But that's a weak no. I can easily be convinced otherwise.

I am also a bit divided. There is a big short-term gain from bringing in JC. But there is always the risk that he captures a city or two from Alex.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 10:16 AM
Err how do I do that? You mean as new techs come up on the trade screen?

I haven't pressed enter, and I haven't asked JC to convert to hindu either. There is wisdom in klarius's point about the loose Alex units pillaging kk. I'm on the fence. I guess if I had to pick I'd say no to JC->Alex once missionaries are through. But that's a weak no. I can easily be convinced otherwise.Try to observe all tech changes, not just with Alex and JC.

Let's get our misses settled, then we can decide about JC, if needed. I'm not sure we want to give JC more free techs right now.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 10:20 AM
Izzy DOW'd us IBT t95-96. There are no units in our territory. I cannot see any of her units anywhere. She has OB's with Fred JC Asoka Alex and KK.

My thought is to put JC on Izzy next turn if the first h-miss is successful, and 2 turns if it's not or maybe wait until we can DOW Alex and put him on both of them.

And otherwise to ignore Izzy until we spot a unit somewhere. I'll take a dinner break while you guys ponder this.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 10:22 AM
THis is big news. Good news. What are the prices of sending different AIs against Izzy?

Erkon
Jun 06, 2008, 10:56 AM
...IBT: Zoraster born in Delhi. Izzy DOW's us. Stopping as per PPP.

Rock'n roll! Kill'em!! Kill'em all!!!
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:
:aargh::ar15:


This reminds me of the previous SGOTM where we planned 97 turns ahead, and then after one turn we re-planned everything :lol::lol::lol:

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 10:57 AM
There is no use to use one missionary before 2 are through.
My plan was to have the first a look on Antium also just for curiosity :).
T97:
Two are available in Berlin and Tiwanaku - convert the cities. If that works, move the 3rd miss as far south as possible with still 1/2 move left.
DoW Alex (miss teleports eastwards - move away from Greek border into KK territory).
Set JC on Alex (and Izzy :confused: now that it is so cheap).
T98: Set KK on Alex (and Izzy :confused: - in the hope he just gets lucky with JC taking out the defenses).

If T97 doesn't work for 2 misses, don't Dow Alex.
T98 the 3rd miss can try his luck and now come all bribes :confused: in the same turn.
Obviously we have to call off KK from Fred T98, before we can have him DoW anybody.

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 11:11 AM
Or:

1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.
2.- Pass the opportunity to dow Alex
3.- After Fred is at peace (eternal peace?) bring KK on Izzy.
4.- After Madrid is taken, set JC on Alex, dow JC, bring KK on JC.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 11:12 AM
First miss can still look on Antium. Will do that. Am not sure we want to split kk's attention from Alex though. If we have him DOW izzy will he prioritize Alex and send the berlin units there or will he divert some to madrid?

JC will DOW Izzy + all his gold (140) for either CS, MC, or philo

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 11:23 AM
Or:

1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.
2.- Pass the opportunity to dow Alex
3.- After Fred is at peace (eternal peace?) bring KK on Izzy.
4.- After Madrid is taken, set JC on Alex, dow JC, bring KK on JC.

This is interesting. In addition we can bring Liz in on Alex with an optics+DOW for edu trade. That means Alex should be dead before the PA and removes that obstacle.

However I have moved the N cat off the path to hamburg so it wil now get there 1t later than before :(. still shouldn't make a huge difference. KK seems strong enough to make this work. Downside is we would need to be careful about the timing of conversions. Right now KK is +5 pleased with JC with +1 for favorite civics. That's ok, but if it goes too high he'll go friendly so we might need to remove the religious bonus by having them in different religions.

In both your and klarius plan we're doing same thing until t97 (I think), so should I play until then?

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 11:32 AM
In both your and klarius plan we're doing same thing until t97 (I think), so should I play until then?

Is the Cat going to the same place in both plans?

Other than that, I am ok with playing to t97, as long as no conversion is done.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 11:32 AM
Or:
1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.


And do you think he will do it?
Even if he moves his units there, he can DoP any turn before attacking. That's just RNG.
If you want to be sure that a war lasts some time you need a new one.

Edit:
And I don't want to tell KK to go anywhere before T97 when we give him machinery (I hope this is available now ?).
No use to suicide spears and swords which could be upgraded to mace first.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 11:32 AM
Or:

1.- Tell KK to attack Hamburg.
2.- Pass the opportunity to dow Alex
3.- After Fred is at peace (eternal peace?) bring KK on Izzy.
4.- After Madrid is taken, set JC on Alex, dow JC, bring KK on JC.

Are you out of your mind??!!! :mad:

We have spent 300 something posts debating Alex or JC, and now you bring up Isa instead??? :gripe:



Except for that, I like it... :) :) :)

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 11:35 AM
And do you think he will do it?
Even if he moves his units there, he can DoP any turn before attacking. That's just RNG.
If you want to be sure that a war lasts some time you need a new one.

Does it matter?

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 11:38 AM
My thought is to put JC on Izzy next turn if the first h-miss is successful, and 2 turns if it's not or maybe wait until we can DOW Alex and put him on both of them.

And otherwise to ignore Izzy until we spot a unit somewhere. I'll take a dinner break while you guys ponder this.

I'd rather not put JC on Izzy until right before we are about to declare on JC. The risk of him capturing Madrid is too high. Besides, what would be the gain?

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 11:38 AM
FiveAces, what happened to KK's units in Hamburg SW and what does he have there now?

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 11:40 AM
Are you out of your mind??!!! :mad:

We have spent 300 something posts debating Alex or JC, and now you bring up Isa instead??? :gripe:





Hey, she started it, not me!

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 11:41 AM
Hey, she started it, not me!

Don't lie, you just want to throw us a party in Madrid. :)

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 11:42 AM
Does it matter?
Yes. If we give up our chance for an attack on Alex with maces for a few suicide spears, axes swords to move towards Hamburg not leading to anything.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 11:44 AM
Is the Cat going to the same place in both plans?

Other than that, I am ok with playing to t97, as long as no conversion is done.

No. If we wait out Hamburg the cat will go there, otherwise it goes towards sparta. But klarius is right, the liklihood is that KK will DoP Fred before Hamburg falls unless his 3 units there now will do the job, and the cat is too late for that. KK has moved swd+spr towards hamburg though so if the war lasts until t100 it will prob fall.

But Asoka now has a swd there now that can attack in 2 turns and might be a nice suicider to allow kk to pick the city up on t98 if I suicide the cat and axes. I think I want to try this. If it works it would be a power move.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 11:47 AM
I'd rather not put JC on Izzy until right before we are about to declare on JC. The risk of him capturing Madrid is too high. Besides, what would be the gain?To me the main beneift of these early Ai-AI wars is to drain their cities of excess early units. JC has alrady drained his cities and we don't really care if Izzy does for a long time, so there has to be some other reason.

JC on Alex helps drain Alex of his excess units, so that makes sense.

We don't need JC on Izzy so he won't DoW someone else, because who cares if he does.

The only reaason for JC on IZZy would be combined with JC on Alex so that JC is spread thin.

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 12:04 PM
And do you think he will do it?
Even if he moves his units there, he can DoP any turn before attacking. That's just RNG.


Yes, I think he will, even if we don't tell him so.
What's the probability of dop per turn?


Anyway, if he dops, there's nothing we can do, we just move on to Madrid. Nothing's lost.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 12:10 PM
If we want to set JC on Alex we should do it enough in advance that Alex units go to Cuzco and not to Berlin. I'm not sure one turn between JC and KK dows would be of any use.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 12:25 PM
FiveAces, what happened to KK's units in Hamburg SW and what does he have there now?

They are still there though the sword is 4.9/6.0.

EDIT: And I did the trading this turn. Check PPP we have mach+compass (among other things). And there's only 5 units in Antium.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 12:30 PM
If we want to set JC on Alex we should do it enough in advance that Alex units go to Cuzco and not to Berlin. I'm not sure one turn between JC and KK dows would be of any use.
More is not possible, because of the missionary dilemma and the limit of KK DoWing.
And one turn is for sure of some use. At least the Athens units will not go to KK-land, as they will already be at JC's border.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 12:33 PM
h-miss scouts antium: 1 axe, 3 cats and 2 archers


:eek:

KK would take it in 2t without our help as it is now...

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 12:40 PM
:eek:

KK would take it in 2t without our help as it is now...

Yeah I know. Let's think about this t98. I have a good feeling about what might happen at Hamburg.

Erkon
Jun 06, 2008, 12:44 PM
Hey, she started it, not me!

Speaking of jesusin, Isabella and Spain:

Let it be known that jesusin has a conditional turn set after FiveAces depending on the outcome of the international struggle as of Saturday 14th of June. In case Spain beats Sweden, jesusin turn set is automatically forfeited, unless completed in advance. So says the Captain.

Not that I'm worried, actually, but considering the success of "Baila El Chiki Chiki", who beat Sweden in the European Song Contest, you never know!

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 12:53 PM
Spears dont upgrade to maces, btw, at least not in my test save.

jesusin: I think your Izzy then JC sequence is risky, because KK could get up to Friendly with JC after capturing Madrid. He's +5 now.
+1 hidden
+1 OBs
+2 civic
+1 seat of religion (or is this special to Asoka?)
Total +10 = Friendly.

SO we would have less than 20t to bribe KK on JC (depending on when JC adotped HeredRule).

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 12:58 PM
They are still there though the sword is 4.9/6.0.

EDIT: And I did the trading this turn. Check PPP we have mach+compass (among other things). And there's only 5 units in Antium.He was already 4.9/6. So did they pillage the road or what? That's weird. No damge done to the units in Hamburg?

EDIT: Does anyone have engineering?

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 01:02 PM
I'm pausing now as optics is available. In addition this is the turn we DOW alex if that is what we do. without the stack in Berlin I don't know if I would want to change my mind and send KK after JC, esp since JC now has longbows. I'm thinking to proceed with klarius's DOW plan. thoughts?

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 01:05 PM
He was already 4.9/6. So did they pillage the road or what? That's weird. No damge done to the units in Hamburg?

EDIT: Does anyone have engineering?

they're all dead or gone, no engineering. in turnset report.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 01:26 PM
We should get Feudalism for KK as well as Machinery and CS.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 01:29 PM
klarius will compass be enough to bribe KK to DOW Alex after our DOW? If not I have to give him philo for the conversion/peace and machinery for the DOW. If it is I can give him machinery first and then compass for the DOW and keep philo for DOW bait later.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 01:31 PM
jesusin: I think your Izzy then JC sequence is risky, because KK could get up to Friendly with JC after capturing Madrid. He's +5 now.
+1 hidden
+1 OBs
+2 civic
+1 seat of religion (or is this special to Asoka?)
Total +10 = Friendly.

If we let JC DoW Alex he will get a -1 declared on friend from KK.
Also there is no reason we should let KK stay in Buddhism, if he should revolt back because of Madrid.
Either Hindu again (may need more missionaries) or dirctly free religion (with the additional benefit that all religions count for culture).
So I see no big problem with a delay, even though I rather want KK-JC earlier.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 01:31 PM
We should get Feudalism for KK as well as Machinery and CS.

good idea but I can only get feudalism from asoka and not for paper which is all we have. have to wait and maybe get it+optics for edu from Liz later.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 01:34 PM
Maybe we should bribe JC on Alex (without Izzy) as cheaply as possible, let JC knock ALex down to size, and plan to bribe him to peace later, when we're able to help KK with Alex.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 01:38 PM
One problem with JC DoWs:
I think, if we have him declare on Alex and Isa, we lose our trade route to him :(.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 01:42 PM
One problem with JC DoWs:
I think, if we have him declare on Alex and Isa, we lose our trade route to him :(.

Crap you're right! Alex only then - is compass enough? EDIT: is compass enough for KK to DOW alex I mean. EDIT2: nevermind, I want him to have machinery this turn. Will use philo if needed next for the DOW.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 01:59 PM
Uh oh I messed up a bit. I handled KK alright, but when I DOW'd Alex I got a -2 with JC for DOWing a friend. I can get that back by gifting tech though. We're at +2 and I have philo, CS, MC and compass on him. I can gift compass which should take us to +4 and then use philo for the DOW which preserves MC and CS. Does it work and is it ok? I thought from klarius chart he DOW'd at cautious anyway?

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 02:01 PM
Uh oh I messed up a bit. I handled KK alright, but when I DOW'd Alex I got a -2 with JC for DOWing a friend. I can get that back by gifting tech though. We're at +2 and I have philo, CS, MC and compass on him. I can gift compass which should take us to +4 and then use philo for the DOW which preserves MC and CS. Does it work and is it ok?

I would prefer not to give JC any techs. He is the next name on our target list.

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 02:10 PM
Spears dont upgrade to maces, btw, at least not in my test save.

jesusin: I think your Izzy then JC sequence is risky, because KK could get up to Friendly with JC after capturing Madrid. He's +5 now.
+1 hidden
+1 OBs
+2 civic
+1 seat of religion (or is this special to Asoka?)
Total +10 = Friendly.

SO we would have less than 20t to bribe KK on JC (depending on when JC adotped HeredRule).

But that's what we keep the KK conversion for, isn't it?


EDIT: I see it's too late, we have already converted KK!

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 02:11 PM
Speaking of jesusin, Isabella and Spain:

Let it be known that jesusin has a conditional turn set after FiveAces depending on the outcome of the international struggle as of Saturday 14th of June. In case Spain beats Sweden, jesusin turn set is automatically forfeited, unless completed in advance. So says the Captain.

Not that I'm worried, actually, but considering the success of "Baila El Chiki Chiki", who beat Sweden in the European Song Contest, you never know!

What's the value of your word? I respected your 2K post!

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 02:12 PM
I would prefer not to give JC any techs. He is the next name on our target list.

Well then he stays at peace until we go after him. That was what jesusin wanted anyway and he's up next so he might get to see how his strategy plays out. I'm sorry about that. I didn't realize I HAD to convert him before I DOW'd Alex (I removed it from my PPP and nobody caught it but that's still my fault).

Anyway I'll wait to see if others share your view to keep JC at peace or give up 2 techs (assuming that's all it takes).

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 02:17 PM
I would prefer not to give JC any techs. He is the next name on our target list.
Don't be that tight. Compass and philo are harmless.

But how far are we really away. You got a -1 for DoWing Alex. There was already a -1 for Fred long ago.
Maybe another 40g will also do it. And DoW then for compass.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 02:19 PM
Don't be that tight. Compass and philo are harmless.

But how far are we really away. You got a -1 for DoWing Alex. There was already a -1 for Fred long ago.
Maybe another 40g will also do it. And DoW then for compass.

Only took 30g thanks klarius!

jesusin
Jun 06, 2008, 02:33 PM
I prefer peace.

Are we paying Asoka for dop with Fred? We prefer taking an OCC Fred and a 3 citied Asoka than a 4 citied Asoka.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 02:34 PM
I prefer peace.

Are we paying Asoka for dop with Fred? We prefer taking an OCC Fred and a 3 citied Asoka than a 4 citied Asoka.

I presume we can dop Fred and pay him to dop Asoka.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 02:49 PM
kk to hindu, peace fred, 70g for machinery


Make sure that KK has enough gold to upgrade all his units. Its dirt cheap for a Deity AI but I assume that he still needs some gold to do it.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 02:50 PM
I presume we can dop Fred and pay him to dop Asoka.

Asoka has no units nearby. I'd wait it out for a bit it's probably slowing Asoka down a tad and keeping him from researching paper.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 02:53 PM
Make sure that KK has enough gold to upgrade all his units. Its dirt cheap for a Deity AI but I assume that he still needs some gold to do it.
The gold on the trade table is not all the gold he has. Still I wouldn't have taken his money.
But he will now anyway reduce his research slider and have them upgraded soon.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 03:08 PM
The gold on the trade table is not all the gold he has. Still I wouldn't have taken his money.
But he will now anyway reduce his research slider and have them upgraded soon.

didn't think of that. they're all upgraded anyway. if anything it helped slowing him down a turn so that his main stack and mine get there closer to the same time.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 03:08 PM
IBT: Asoka gets optics, drops to pleased, goes WFYABTA, DoP's with Fred; KK has feud

breaking for a few minutes
Still everything in the green.
We can get him back to friendly by bribing him on Alex if necessary.
But currently I still expect we will trade optics from Liz in a few turns. But watch the trade value of edu, please.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 03:19 PM
BTW, what is Izzy doing.
We haven't bribed anybody on her, so she should come with some units for us. Watch out, please.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 03:21 PM
BTW, what is Izzy doing.
We haven't bribed anybody on her, so she should come with some units for us. Watch out, please.

She doesn't have a route to us, does she? :confused:

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 03:22 PM
didn't think of that. they're all upgraded anyway. if anything it helped slowing him down a turn so that his main stack and mine get there closer to the same time.

Good to hear. Btw, the tech pace in this game is awesome. :)

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 03:22 PM
Turn 101-102 IBT: Sparta has been captured by the mongolian empire!!! :dance:

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 03:23 PM
Turn 101-102 IBT: Sparta has been captured by the mongolian empire!!! :bananna:

WTG Kublai!!!! :woohoo:

And WTG FiveAces! :goodjob:


Edit: That is his fifth city already, with Athens soon to fall I hope. Looking really good. :)

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 03:26 PM
Turn 101-102 IBT: Sparta has been captured by the mongolian empire!!! :dance:Crap. I'm the only WASTER who hasn't captured a city.

Super job, FiveAces! :goodjob:

Erkon
Jun 06, 2008, 03:26 PM
Excellent news! Shame on us who though otherwise :lol:

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 03:28 PM
She doesn't have a route to us, does she? :confused:

No. we're surrounded by Liz/wash and she does not have OB's with them.

Still everything in the green.
We can get him back to friendly by bribing him on Alex if necessary.
But currently I still expect we will trade optics from Liz in a few turns. But watch the trade value of edu, please.


good point. right now I can't get feud+optics for it, but I can get either one + hbr +all her gold (20g)

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 03:33 PM
FiveAces turnset report
t95-t104


Are you only planning on playing 9 turns? ;)

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 03:44 PM
Are you only planning on playing 9 turns? ;)

no I'll play all of t104 and then upload then or press enter and upload, depending on where we are. that's right isn't it?

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 03:44 PM
BTW, what are we doing now?
Do we still have units near Sparta?
If yes they shouldn't go to Athens but down to the Roman empire, I think. New units from the capital can go towards Athens.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 03:46 PM
no I'll play all of t104 and then upload then or press enter and upload, depending on where we are. that's right isn't it?
You should play to 105 and do also no brainer moves there, if there are any.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 03:49 PM
no I'll play all of t104 and then upload then or press enter and upload, depending on where we are. that's right isn't it?MIght as well hit <enter> on T104, so jesusin will start on T105.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 03:57 PM
t101 350bc
cat done, moving now to athens in anticipation of sparta fall

IBT: JC asks to stop trading with Wash, we decline, still pleased. Alex has feud :(

LC, what happened to your "10 turns before Alex gets Feudalism"? Did he trade for it?

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 03:59 PM
LC, what happened to your "10 turns before Alex gets Feudalism"? Did he trade for it?Gets cheaper and cheaper. I figured 10t at most.

klarius
Jun 06, 2008, 04:00 PM
And, BTW, don't lose the missionary to a stray archer from Izzy (OK, you might want to join your comrades on the plank). He is still needed at Karakorum, if we have to convert KK again and he has 6-7 bud cities.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 04:17 PM
ok save uploaded.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Murky_Waters_SG007_BC0250_01.Civ4SavedGame

autolog


Tech learned: Metal Casting
Murkyopolis begins: Forge (2 turns)
Axeman promoted: Combat II
Murkyopolis finishes: Forge
Isabella(Spain) declares war on SGOTM07(China)
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'

Turn 96/460 (475 BC) [06-Jun-2008 19:11:05]
Murkyopolis begins: Heroic Epic (4 turns)
Tech learned: Calendar
Tech learned: Archery
Tech learned: Monotheism
Tech learned: Machinery
Tech learned: Compass
Murkyopolis begins: Harbor (2 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Harbor
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 97/460 (450 BC) [06-Jun-2008 21:52:26]
Murkyopolis begins: Heroic Epic (3 turns)
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) and Frederick(Germany) have signed a peace treaty
SGOTM07(China) declares war on Alexander(Greece)
Julius Caesar(Rome) declares war on Alexander(Greece)
Murkyopolis finishes: Heroic Epic
While defending in German territory near Hamburg, Axeman defeats (3.40/5): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 85.9%)
While defending in German territory near Hamburg, Axeman defeats (4.30/5): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 98.1%)
While defending in German territory near Hamburg, Axeman defeats (4.30/5): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 88.2%)
State Religion Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Buddhism' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Washington(America), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 98/460 (425 BC) [06-Jun-2008 23:22:30]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Kublai Khan(Mongolia) declares war on Alexander(Greece)
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Asoka(India), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 99/460 (400 BC) [06-Jun-2008 23:38:48]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Tech learned: Education
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult

Turn 100/460 (375 BC) [06-Jun-2008 23:51:11]
Research begun: Liberalism (11 Turns)
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
Asoka(India) and Frederick(Germany) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Asoka(India), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Frederick(Germany), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 101/460 (350 BC) [06-Jun-2008 23:57:32]
Murkyopolis begins: University (6 turns)
Murkyopolis grows: 10
Murkyopolis finishes: University
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Frederick(Germany) from 'Pacifism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 102/460 (325 BC) [07-Jun-2008 00:19:15]
Murkyopolis begins: Oxford University (5 turns)
Axeman promoted: Combat I
Murkyopolis finishes: Oxford University

Turn 103/460 (300 BC) [07-Jun-2008 00:41:28]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
While defending in Greek territory at Athens, Axeman defeats (1.00/5): Greek Longbowman (Prob Victory: 27.7%)
While defending in Greek territory at Athens, Catapult defeats (1.85/5): Greek Longbowman (Prob Victory: 21.7%)
While defending in Greek territory at Athens, Axeman loses to: Greek Phalanx (2.15/5) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While defending in Greek territory at Athens, Catapult loses to: Greek Longbowman (6.00/6) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While defending in Greek territory at Athens, Catapult loses to: Greek Longbowman (0.60/6) (Prob Victory: 21.7%)

Turn 104/460 (275 BC) [07-Jun-2008 00:58:25]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)
While attacking in English territory near Cuzco, Catapult defeats (3.90/5): Greek Longbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Murkyopolis grows: 11
Murkyopolis finishes: Catapult
While defending in Greek territory at Athens, Catapult loses to: Greek Longbowman (4.98/6) (Prob Victory: 14.8%)
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 105/460 (250 BC) [07-Jun-2008 01:03:28]
Murkyopolis begins: Catapult (1 turns)

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 04:20 PM
Excellent play, FiveAces! DOn't worry about those moves on T105.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 04:29 PM
thx LC. I was trying to get in position at Athens to bombard in time for KK's stack coming through. splitting the units got me.

jesusin - note if you wish because alex plays before KK you can follow his stack with the cats and remain covered.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 04:47 PM
Excellent play! :goodjob:

Asoka is back at friendly and has optics. Looking really good now. We need to hook up iron and start spamming some stronger units to protect our cats.

Erkon
Jun 06, 2008, 04:57 PM
Real nice! Great play.

Forge, Harbour, HE, University, Oxford all in one turn each. Now, that was not what you expected when you joined the team, was it? :lol: And I though 4 turns each was quick :mischief:

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 05:02 PM
Man the more I think about it the more I realize I shouldn't have approached Athens from the N with only an axe defender once Alex got feud. Archers would have been fine to do that against, which was what he had when I started, but not lb's. I should have been more flexible and either swung around to the south or moved towards jc. Well I learned something and I'll be a better player for it and hopefully it won't make a difference in our overall finish.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 05:09 PM
Real nice! Great play.

Forge, Harbour, HE, University, Oxford all in one turn each. Now, that was not what you expected when you joined the team, was it? :lol: And I though 4 turns each was quick :mischief:

Thx. this is a great team. we all contribute and make each other's turnset better and improve the overall finish. i'll stop worrying about the plank now. I guess the next decision is athens or jc and when.

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 05:32 PM
If we keep researching at our current rate, 241 beakers per turn (290/t counting the +20% prereq bonus) we will discover techs on these dates:

Liberalism on T108
Astronomy on T108
Printing Press on T116
SciMet on T128
Communism on T142 = 640 AD

However, there will be a GS/GA born on T116. If that one is a GS (80% odds) we get to bulb him on SciMet:

SciMet on T122
Communism on T136 = 520 AD

We have been speeding along the research tree ahead of schedule so there is no point in building the NE and running extra scientists. We cannot get GS#5 before T121 anyway.

FiveAces
Jun 06, 2008, 05:45 PM
Well there is one reason - to increase the odds of a GA for settling in one of kk's cities. In fact unless we feel we're ready for dom before t142 this is preferable to the GS.

I remember an early post of LC's issuing the 1st Annual MW 500ad Domination Challenge, and klarius telling him there was no way we could reseach that fast. Looks like he was right, but only just. Maybe LC should revise that to a 600ad challenge.

EDIT: gnejs did you factor in an observatory? if not and we build one we might get comm before 500ad.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 05:57 PM
I remember an early post of LC's issuing the 1st Annual MW 500ad Domination Challenge, and klarius telling him there was no way we could reseach that fast. Looks like he was right, but only just. Maybe LC should revise that to a 600ad challenge.The point of the challenge was to dominate the turn after PA. We're researching too fast, dammit. :mad:

:lol:

Gnejs
Jun 06, 2008, 06:03 PM
EDIT: gnejs did you factor in an observatory? if not and we build one we might get comm before 500ad.

No, and neither did I factor in growth to work new commerce tiles, scientists and monastery going obsolete with SciMet. :) But all in all, these things should not change the Communism date with more than one or maybe two turns.

Though I guess the Observatory would speed up our research rate by 3.35/3.10 = 8% getting us to Communism two turns sooner.

But I think we might need to focus on military progress now. The PA is anyway only 31 turns away.

LowtherCastle
Jun 06, 2008, 06:06 PM
We need to trade for engineering asap.

Liz will do anything we want for Education, including DoW Alex and/or Izzy. Or she do Dow Izzy + Optics for Educ +130g.

Do we want a galleon when we get Astro?

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 01:09 AM
t100 375bc
research education, switch to liberalism in 11 turns


Oh, no! You should have switched to Liberalism immediately!

:lol: :joke:








Fantastic turnset, FiveAces! :king:

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 01:11 AM
Man the more I think about it the more I realize I shouldn't have approached Athens from the N with only an axe defender once Alex got feud. Archers would have been fine to do that against, which was what he had when I started, but not lb's. I should have been more flexible and either swung around to the south or moved towards jc. Well I learned something and I'll be a better player for it and hopefully it won't make a difference in our overall finish.

I want to learn too. What killed the cats? lbs coming from Athens?

If that's the case, what happened to the wounded lbs?

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 01:53 AM
Liz will do anything we want for Education,

:drool: Really? :drool:
do or make?

jesusin
Jun 07, 2008, 02:02 AM
I got it.

Some input for the new turnset:

1- Are we in danger of losing the second silver? It reads 42%.

2- We don't need no stone. Can sell it to KK for 4gpt or undo the deal with Asoka, get 2gpt more from him and then 4gpt from KK for the silver.

3- Do we need Marble? Are we building the NE?

4- Fred would pay 10g and WM for peace. Is there any reason to be at war with him? Peace or CF?

5- We have 4 Cats, 2 at home, 2 at Athens. When are we planning to dow JC? When should I start driving our units to him?

6- Any reason not to trade for Optics before hitting enter?

7- If possible I'd like not to trade anything to Asoka. His GNP doubles ours. He might get gunpowder units.

LowtherCastle
Jun 07, 2008, 02:27 AM
1/2. Giving silver for gpt asap may be a good idea so later we can cancel it immediately if we lose the 42% silver.
3. We wouldn't need the NE before we switch to Free religion, at the earliest, imo. Maybe not till we finish SciMeth.
4. --- (WM?)
5. I think we are in danger of needlessly losing Athens to JC (or getting its roads pillaged). Sending the 2 axes and 2 cats down to JC is a great idea, but I'd keep one cat up to spy on Athens until spies come from the north. >>>We can and want to have JC DoP with ALex if he's about to capture Athens.<<< Meanwhile, I think we should remind both KK and JC to attack Athens every turn. Maybe that will discourage them from pillaging?
6. ? I dont' understand your question.
7. He and/or Liz will get CHemistry (grens) very soon, I think. Doubt we can stop it. Probably more important to stay Friendly with them so we and KK get it at the same time. By then, it won't matter what they have--KK will have about 10 cities and they'll die a few turns after we DoW them.