View Full Version : SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters


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AlanH
Apr 17, 2008, 03:00 PM
Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 7 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The team lists are at the end of this post.

The Game
You are Qin Shi Huang, the great Chinese leader. You find yourself on a tiny world, surrounded by all the other vanilla civs. You can only build or own a single city, and the difficulty level is .... Deity!

The Objective
This Deity OCC game is on a Tiny map, at Normal speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, and using the latest vanilla HOF Mod.

Windows players need the HOF Mod at: HOF-1.74.002 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php#download).
Windows players who have not installed BtS 3.13 will need to swap their vanilla CvGameCoreDLL.dll file so that their Civ4 installation is compatible with copies that have the BtS installation. Download the new DLL zip file here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/Civ4_BtS_DLLs.zip). The enclosed Readme file gives details for the installation.

Mac players are in a separate team as the HoF Mod cannot be made to work cross-platform. They will use Civ4 for Mac version 1.74, and HOF-Mac-1.74.002 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=214617).

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of April 24.

Please try to complete this game within three months of the start date.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm07_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm07_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Qin Shi Huang of China.
Characteristics - Industrious and Financial, starts with Agriculture and Mining
Unique Unit - Cho-Ku-Nu (Crossbowman)
Rivals - All of them
World size - Tiny
Difficulty - Deity
Landform - Continents
Environment - Temperate climate, low sea level
Game Speed - Normal
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Normal
Permanent Alliances - Enabled
City Razing - Enabled. China auto-razes to enforce OCC.


Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The laurels will be presented to the three teams who achieve victories in the fewest turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Do NOT view any other team threads until you have submitted your last save - win, lose or retire.

Do NOT download any other team's save.

Enjoy your game, and please be nice to each other :D

Erkon
Apr 17, 2008, 10:33 PM
Welcome everyone to

SGOTM7 – Team Murky Waters

This time around, we shall have more fun, learn even more and perform better than ever! I have a feeling that the diplomatic part of this game will be much more intense than in SGOTM6 :crazyeye:. Welcome to FiveAces who has joined us as a regular player and morpheus11 who has joined as an official lurker*. :clap: I've adjusted/improved/clarified the house rules a bit (highlighted in blue). You are free/encouraged to comment as usual :D

The following rules apply to all players in the Murky Waters SGOTM7 team (including morpheus11 when applicable :p )

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules below and those provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439))** and follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 07 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=271889)

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 48 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. These rules replaces guideline 6 and 7 in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 36 hours. The rest of the team needs the in between 12 hours to solve who's next. It is mandatory to wait at least 12 hours after the "got it" before you play, and it's recommended to wait at least 24 hours after the ”got it” before you play. Else, the difference in time zones and busy work days may prevent players to post useful advice. If you for some reason have to "unget it", please post within 24 after the "got it" if possible. We aim to play two turn sets / week.

Before you start playing, please post a short plan for your turn set (aka Pre-Play-Plan), including the following topics: builds, military activity per theatre, tile improvements, research, civic switches, diplomatic actions and miscellaneously. Also describe the intent. You don't need to write a novel. A sentence or two for each topic will suffice. This will hopefully enable each player to feel more engagement. It is not intended to replace the incredible amount of interference advice from the rest of us :lol: The PPP-template can be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6743358&postcount=75) Something I noticed from last game was that it was hard to keep track of updates/duplicates of the PPP. Please use the same post and mark updates with different color. When you report from a turn set, please use one post (I know - I'm the biggest sinner :hide:). This will make it much easier for me to assemble the event post below.

We will use mid-turnset uploads during intense turn sets. If you are playing while other are online, please upload and the rest of us can review the save (typically an hour review period). In addition/complement to that, a player shall break after move of starting warrior, initial city settlement, writing discovered, alpha discovered, or something really exciting/unexpected happens, such as anyone declares on us :faint:. I don't want us to be too strict and pause for minor stuff, because that will have a negative impact on the flow of play for the player. It is important that everyone in the team feels they have the mandate to take decisions when we encounter opportunities without having to ask for advice. One example would be tech trade with AIs that we have agreed on to trade with.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets if they announce the swap in time. Since the captain has a memory capacity of a demented gold fish, I urge you to make it clear when you intend to skip a turn. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unnecessary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humor, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language (LC for example use American English). The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond. With this in mind I would like to encourage all and everyone to trash talk to your hearts content, particularly when Gnejs (aka Mr UN) screws up.

Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player have strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the SGOTM4/5/6 threads when the most simple rule has been unknown to several of us (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid. As a captain, I am obliged to post the most stupid questions to ensure that the rest of the team appear brighter.

Issues where we cannot reach consensus is resolved by the active player. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city :blush: Don’t be afraid making mistakes though. We all screw up once in a while (some of us more often than others though :shifty: )

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion. We all have very different experiences from promotions, for example barrage/CR for cats, and combat vs other promotions.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you :lol:

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly the capital each turn. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to unnecessarily pollute the great person pool. Please respect LC’s micro management plans. We brought him to tears last game when we whipped a city on the wrong turn :cry: .

Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves. Read this post for details. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6747401&postcount=15)

If you PM the team, please ensure everyone one receives a copy. Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one else's, and is therefore valuable.

The goal for Team Murky Waters is to end among the top three teams. The ambition is to grab the silver laurel and the vision is to win defend the gold :trophy:.

This is the motto of the Captain: "We have an ambition to perform well and of course we want to win the gold laurel. We also want to have fun while playing and we want to learn more. It's more important to me to have fun than win the gold, and I think that it's the same for most players."

If you play with a non-english version of the game (yes, I'm thinking of you jesusin :lol:), please provide a translation to English of the event log.

Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 0. This will reduce future confusion. EDIT2: Set MaxAutoSaves in CivilizationIV.ini to a value greater than the length of your turn set.

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn/year that is stated by the event log. Research for example is completed at the end of a turn. The pop up thus shows the turn after the tech is learned.

EDIT 1: Make a note of the turn we and another AI start having a common war and note the turn that the AI declares peace, so we can know when we've gotten to 40 turns of common war.

EDIT 3: Especially early on, we need to monitor our neighbors' attitudes about DoWing people and see if it changes to: "We have enough on our hands now." Maybe give us advance notice about needing archery

When the game is over, and the staff has confirmed it's over, you are free to read other team threads. When their game is over, and the staff has confirmed it, you are free to post in their threads as well.

Ok, if you have bothered to read this far, you are eligible to either a) ignore this crap or b) provide valuable comments (please email me at captain.murky_waters@dev.null)

BTW, I am considering to update the motto for this SGOTM to be: "Remember that your turn set is the most important in the game, so don't screw up!". Anyone against? :rolleyes:

* An Official Lurker is a team member who is allowed to post in this thread while its progressing and can also download the save, but does not participate in the decisions in the game, and does not play any turn sets. The Official Lurker will therefore not receive any potential laurel or spoon:cry:. The same restriction applies to an official lurker as playing members, such as not viewing other teams threads, and not performing irreversible actions in the save. An Official Lurker is encouraged to ask questions when he/she wants to learn about the reasoning of the team, or game rules etc.

** Guidelines 5-7 does not apply to our game. You are free to upload before the end of your last turn. You can "get it" without first opening the save.

Erkon
Apr 17, 2008, 10:34 PM
Turn Set Summaries, Game Events & Reports

Domination Victory
1170 AD

Pre-game discussionsklarius' first attempt to make sense (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6733987&postcount=25)
FiveAces' first attempt to make sense (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6734287&postcount=26)
LC's list of Creative AI (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6734788&postcount=31)
Gnejs' first rant on chopping forests (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6735203&postcount=39)
FiveAces' second attempt to make sense (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6737438&postcount=41)
FiveAces' ideas on early part of game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6737912&postcount=47)
klarius' tech value chart (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6759988&postcount=206) (vital knowledge to understand our thread in general and specifically tech trade)

4000 BC - 3600 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6765707&postcount=289) - 3200 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6768953&postcount=357) (Gnejs' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6759296&postcount=196), page 1-18). Settle in place. Trial games with pyramids gives Communism at 640 AD. We decide to stick to early alpha plan and forfeit the Pyramids, because we prefer to have an early influence on the AI via tech gifting/trading. Meet Asoka, Tokugawa, Washington, Elizabeth, Huyana Capac. Learned Fishing, Hunting and Animal Husbandry.

3200 BC - 2640 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6777512&postcount=421) (LC's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6770540&postcount=371), page 18-23). Build scout, meet Isabella, Frederick, and Alexander. Learn Writing.

2640 BC - 2200 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6783929&postcount=493) (FiveAces' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6782294&postcount=463), page 23-28). Meet Kublai Khan and Julius Caesar. Build Library and work boat and learn the Alphabet. Trade for Mysticism and The Wheel.

2200 BC - 2160 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6796593&postcount=717) - 1800 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6809140&postcount=944) (jesusin's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6802386&postcount=826), page 28-48). After endless discussions we decided to start the Big War with multiple DoWs the same turn, instead of a staggered approach: We, KK, Fred and Alex DoW HC (man, he got a surprise! <grin>), we also DoW Toku. KK captures Tiwanaku. Trade for Masonry, BW, Pottery, IW, Polytheism, Meditation.

1800 BC - 1400 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6811675&postcount=1004) (klarius's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6809544&postcount=970), page 28-51). Build Great Library. Alex and Fred make peace with HC. Sailing and Drama learned. Merit Ptah (GS) born, Hinduism spread, grow to pop 7.

1400 BC - 1000 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6826711&postcount=1187) (Erkon's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6819239&postcount=1111), page 51-60). Bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku and JC on HC. Revolt to Slavery and Pacifism. Nabu-rimanni (GS aka Erkon the Great) born, grow to pop10. Math, Philosophy (lightbulb), Priesthood learned. Peace with HC since he has units on our doorsteps*. Asoka captures Kyoto.

1000 BC - 750 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6852988&postcount=1513) (Gnejs's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6850104&postcount=1491), page 60-76). Construct Academy. Bribe Fred on HC, Asoka, KK and us on Fred. Capture Fred worker. Build girlie stuff. KK captures Berlin.

750 BC - 500 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6863757&postcount=1686) (LC's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6856995&postcount=1614), page 76-85). Revolt to Bureau + Hereditary Rule. JC captures Cuzco. Zu Chongzhi (GS) born. Civil Service, Construction, Currency, Paper learned. Around this time we decide to complete a build each turn, a divine revelation by LC.**

500 BC - 250 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6895953&postcount=2161) (FiveAces' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6881391&postcount=1998), page 85-109). Izzy DoW us. Spread Hinduism to KK to convert him. KK peace with Fred. We, JC and KK DoW on Alex. Asoka peace with Fred. KK captures Sparta. Metal Casting, Calendar, Archery, Monotheism, Machinery, Compass, Education learned. Build list (nine turns): Forge, Harbor, Heroic Epic, Cat, Cat, Cat, University, Oxford University, Cat

250 BC - 1 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6922955&postcount=2451) (jesusin's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6898719&postcount=2258), page 109-123). Send Caravel to Far Side and meet the Others. We and KK DoW JC. Peace with Fred. Optics, Feudalism, Engineering, Liberalism, Astronomy, Printing Press learned.

1 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6927021&postcount=2572) - 250 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6927770&postcount=2602) (klarius' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6926207&postcount=2548), page 123-131). Great Artist born. Revolt to Free Religion. Washington DoW JC, Alex and Isa. Elizabeth DoW JC, Alex and Isa. Oops, we did it again! Theology, Horseback Riding, Music learned. KK captures Antium.

250 AD - 475 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6938900&postcount=2764) (Gnejs' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6934970&postcount=2705), page 131 - 140). We and KK peace with JC. KK DoW Isa. We, Hattie, Mansa DoW Montezuma. Why? Why not?! Washington culture bombs. KK captures Madrid. Scientific Methods and Guilds learned.

475 AD - 640 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6962837&postcount=3054) (LC's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6946010&postcount=2829), page 140 - 155). Short story: We bring Asoka into our war against Fred and Asoka captures Hamburg. LC is full of HATRED. Long story: Permanent Alliance with KK. Peace Monty. Revolt to State Property and Theocracy. Liz captures Cuzco. Liz and W DoP JC. We bring Asoka into our war against Fred and Asoka captures Hamburg. LC is full of HATRED. Communism, Chemistry, Banking learned.

640 AD - 820 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6985922&postcount=3210) (FiveAces' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6975875&postcount=3125), page 156 - 165). Bribe Liz to peace Alex. Bribe Cathy to DoW Hattie. KK captures Athens, Hamburg & Kyoto. Steel learned.

820 AD - 1010 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7008242&postcount=3395) (Erkon's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7002703&postcount=3333), page 165 - 174). DoW Liz. KK captures Bombay, Delhi, York & Cuzco. KK lands 11 units SE of London. Nationalism learned.

1010 AD - 1110 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7028585&postcount=3596) (jesusin's PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7023906&postcount=3524), page 174 - 181). DoW Washington. KK captures London, Washington & New York. DoW JC. Biology & Economics learned.

1110 AD - 1170 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7033230&postcount=3649) (klarius' PPP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7030191&postcount=3628), page 182 - 183). Raze Nottingham and Rome. Rifling learned. Everyone DoW Sal. Then win with 41.4% pop (Sal 16.7%) and 51.08% (283 tiles) land. You can't win much closer than that!

klarius korner (not complete and will probably never be...)Defenses in AI cities (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6729876&postcount=8)
Relation levels impact on bribing AI to DoW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6730482&postcount=11)
Value in gold for bribing AI into DoW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6731572&postcount=15)
Restrictions on AI to DoW (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6732030&postcount=19)
Correction regarding bribe cost (8 adjacent tiles) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6733473&postcount=21)
The AI is cheating :eek: They know where all cities are (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6734482&postcount=28)
What makes AIs go to war? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6734518&postcount=29)
Further klarifications on relationship effects with AI (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6735097&postcount=36)
Trade with worst enemy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6741109&postcount=55)
Memory decay or not (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6741236&postcount=59)
Resource trade impact on relations (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6741321&postcount=64)
Tech trade and relations (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6741482&postcount=66)
Monopoly tech value, part I (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6759543&postcount=198)
Forest will not creep on horses (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6761444&postcount=227)
AI will raze overseas cities (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6764380&postcount=253)
AI dog pile, part I (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6764849&postcount=276)
AI preferred city sites (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6766061&postcount=304)
More details about AI relations (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6766963&postcount=310)
HasMetCounter (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6767003&postcount=312)
Random and Varying inter-AI relationships (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6780994&postcount=451) (don't miss this!)

Link to SGOTM6 Summary, including klarius korner 6 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6247795&postcount=3)

Tech progress:
3800 BC - Fishing
2560 BC - Hunting
3240 BC - AH
2880 BC - Writing
2240 BC - Alpha
2200 BC - The Wheel
2200 BC - Mysticism
2200 BC - Masonry
2160 BC - BW
2160 BC - Pottery
2120 BC - IW
2000 BC - Polytheism
2000 BC - Meditation
1760 BC - Literature
1480 BC - Sailing
1440 BC - Drama
1400 BC - Math
1400 BC - Philosophy from GS
1280 BC - Priesthood
975 BC - Code of Laws
850 BC - Monarchy
725 BC - Civil Service (partly self learned)
725 BC - Construction
700 BC - Currency
575 BC - Paper
500 BC - Metal Casting
475 BC - Calendar
475 BC - Archery
475 BC - Monotheism
475 BC - Machinery
475 BC - Compass
400 BC - Education (partly bulbed)
250 BC - Optics
200 BC - Feudalism
200 BC - Engineering
200 BC - Liberalism
175 BC - Astronomy
25 BC - Printing Press
1 AD - Theology
1 AD - Horseback Riding
125 AD - Music
250 AD - Scientific Methods
375 AD - Guilds
500 AD - Communism
520 AD - Chemistry (from PA bug)
540 AD - Banking
720 AD - Steel
* This event lead to us introducing Break Conditions in our PPP, in addition to the previously added Sequence bullet.
** The most important limitation for an OCC game is that you can never produce more than one item per turn, regardless of overflow. We thus sacrificed beakers and food sometime to ensure we always completed the build in one turn, sometimes from chop-whip.

Erkon
Apr 17, 2008, 10:34 PM
Game Info

Roster

Gnejs - 15 turns
LC - 12 turns
FiveAces - 10 turns
jesusin - 10 turns
klarius - 10 turns
Mitiu - 10 turns
Erkon - 10 turns

Rules for Permanent Alliance (PA)We can have one and only one partner
Neither we nor the partner can break the PA
We tell the partner what the partner shall research
If we DoW, the partner will DoW as well
The relationship from other AI will be the average of said AIs relation to us and out partner
It will take 40 turns of mutual war against a third AI before a PA can be signed
OR
It will take 40 turns of Defensive Pact with an AI before a PA can be signed
OR
Shared war and DP count together, but DP counter is decremented while you are at war, so you can top of shared war by a DP, but not the other way around.
Our GP can be used in the partner cities only by settling them as superspecialists.
(Any other use requieres our gifting the GP and hoping the AI will know what to do with them.)
PA research:
There is only one bucket for tech progress per team per tech. Both PA partners put their beakers into these buckets. That's independent of difficulty level.
If a PA is formed the beaker cost of the techs change (you can see this change in the tech screen). There is a penalty of a factor of 1.5 for 2 partners.
But the difficulty level factor changes to the value of the average of difficulties of the 2 partners :
floor((deity+noble)/2) = monarch.
So in the end we have 1.15*1.5 instead of 1.3 factor.Rules of One City Challenge (OOC)We can not settle a second city
Any city we capture will be auto-razed
We can build more than two National Wonders in our capital
We can build Globe Theatre, Oxford University and Ironworks in our CapitalPre-game test-gamesShannon's 4000 BC save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6695085&postcount=1517)
Gnejs' 4000 BC save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=174068)
klarius 4000 BC save (http://www.h-klar.de/SG7/sg7t1.Civ4SavedGame)
klarius pre-PA save - Communism in 450AD and Hatty is ready for PA.
Erkons 4000BC save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=174614&d=1208555992)Turn vs Date listTurn Year
..0 .4000 BC
..1 .3960 BC
..2 .3920 BC
..3 .3880 BC
..4 .3840 BC
..5 .3800 BC
..6 .3760 BC
..7 .3720 BC
..8 .3680 BC
..9 .3640 BC
.10 .3600 BC
.11 .3560 BC
.12 .3520 BC
.13 .3480 BC
.14 .3440 BC
.15 .3400 BC
.16 .3360 BC
.17 .3320 BC
.18 .3280 BC
.19 .3240 BC
.20 .3200 BC
.21 .3160 BC
.22 .3120 BC
.23 .3080 BC
.24 .3040 BC
.25 .3000 BC
.26 .2960 BC
.27 .2920 BC
.28 .2880 BC
.29 .2840 BC
.30 .2800 BC
.31 .2760 BC
.32 .2720 BC
.33 .2680 BC
.34 .2640 BC
.35 .2600 BC
.36 .2560 BC
.37 .2520 BC
.38 .2480 BC
.39 .2440 BC
.40 .2400 BC
.41 .2360 BC
.42 .2320 BC
.43 .2280 BC
.44 .2240 BC
.45 .2200 BC
.46 .2160 BC
.47 .2120 BC
.48 .2080 BC
.49 .2040 BC
.50 .2000 BC
.51 .1960 BC
.52 .1920 BC
.53 .1880 BC
.54 .1840 BC
.55 .1800 BC
.56 .1760 BC
.57 .1720 BC
.58 .1680 BC
.59 .1640 BC
.60 .1600 BC
.61 .1560 BC
.62 .1520 BC
.63 .1480 BC
.64 .1440 BC
.65 .1400 BC
.66 .1360 BC
.67 .1320 BC
.68 .1280 BC
.69 .1240 BC
.70 .1200 BC
.71 .1160 BC
.72 .1120 BC
.73 .1080 BC
.74 .1040 BC
.75 .1000 BC
.76 . 975 BC
.77 . 950 BC
.78 . 925 BC
.79 . 900 BC
.80 . 875 BC
.81 . 850 BC
.82 . 825 BC
.83 . 800 BC
.84 . 775 BC
.85 . 750 BC
.86 . 725 BC
.87 . 700 BC
.88 . 675 BC
.89 . 650 BC
.90 . 625 BC
.91 . 600 BC
.92 . 575 BC
.93 . 550 BC
.94 . 525 BC
.95 . 500 BC
.96 . 475 BC
.97 . 450 BC
.98 . 425 BC
.99 . 400 BC
100 . 375 BC
101 . 350 BC
102 . 325 BC
103 . 300 BC
104 . 275 BC
105 . 250 BC
106 . 225 BC
107 . 200 BC
108 . 175 BC
109 . 150 BC
110 . 125 BC
111 . 100 BC
112 . .75 BC
113 . .50 BC
114 . .25 BC
115 . . 1 AD
116 . .25 AD
117 . .50 AD
118 . .75 AD
119 . 100 AD
120 . 125 AD
121 . 150 AD
122 . 175 AD
123 . 200 AD
124 . 225 AD
125 . 250 AD
126 . 275 AD
127 . 300 AD
128 . 325 AD
129 . 350 AD
130 . 375 AD
131 . 400 AD
132 . 425 AD
133 . 450 AD
134 . 475 AD
135 . 500 AD
136 . 520 AD
137 . 540 AD
138 . 560 AD
139 . 580 AD
140 . 600 AD
141 . 620 AD
142 . 640 AD
143 . 660 AD
144 . 680 AD
145 . 700 AD
146 . 720 AD
147 . 740 AD
148 . 760 AD
149 . 780 AD
150 . 800 AD
151 . 820 AD
152 . 840 AD
153 . 860 AD
154 . 880 AD
155 . 900 AD
156 . 920 AD
157 . 940 AD
158 . 960 AD
159 . 980 AD
160 .1000 AD
161 .1010 AD
162 .1020 AD
163 .1030 AD
164 .1040 AD
165 .1050 AD
166 .1060 AD
167 .1070 AD
168 .1080 AD
169 .1090 AD
170 .1100 AD
171 .1110 AD
172 .1120 AD
173 .1130 AD
174 .1140 AD
175 .1150 AD
176 .1160 AD
177 .1170 AD
178 .1180 AD
179 .1190 AD
180 .1200 AD
181 .1210 AD
182 .1220 AD
183 .1230 AD
184 .1240 AD
185 .1250 AD
186 .1260 AD
187 .1270 AD
188 .1280 AD
189 .1290 AD
190 .1300 AD
191 .1310 AD
192 .1320 AD
193 .1330 AD
194 .1340 AD
195 .1350 AD
196 .1360 AD
197 .1370 AD
198 .1380 AD
199 .1390 AD
200 .1400 AD
201 .1410 AD
202 .1420 AD
203 .1430 AD
204 .1440 AD
205 .1450 AD
206 .1460 AD
207 .1470 AD
208 .1480 AD
209 .1490 AD
210 .1500 AD
211 .1505 AD
212 .1510 AD
213 .1515 AD
214 .1520 AD
215 .1525 AD
216 .1530 AD
217 .1535 AD
218 .1540 AD
219 .1545 AD
220 .1550 AD
221 .1555 AD
222 .1560 AD
223 .1565 AD
224 .1570 AD
225 .1575 AD
226 .1580 AD
227 .1585 AD
228 .1590 AD
229 .1595 AD
230 .1600 AD
231 .1605 AD
232 .1610 AD
233 .1615 AD
234 .1620 AD
235 .1625 AD
236 .1630 AD
237 .1635 AD
238 .1640 AD
239 .1645 AD
240 .1650 AD
241 .1655 AD
242 .1660 AD
243 .1665 AD
244 .1670 AD
245 .1675 AD
246 .1680 AD
247 .1685 AD
248 .1690 AD
249 .1695 AD
250 .1700 AD
251 .1705 AD
252 .1710 AD
253 .1715 AD
254 .1720 AD
255 .1725 AD
256 .1730 AD
257 .1735 AD
258 .1740 AD
259 .1745 AD
260 .1750 AD
261 .1755 AD
262 .1760 AD
263 .1765 AD
264 .1770 AD
265 .1775 AD
266 .1780 AD
267 .1785 AD
268 .1790 AD
269 .1795 AD
270 .1800 AD

Erkon
Apr 17, 2008, 10:37 PM
Apr 09, 2008, 04:29 PM
Hey guys!
...
I played ShannonCT's test map up to the Liberalism slingshot. I took Astro but could have taken Nationalism or something else. I'm pm'ing you with the 400ad save because I'm really not sure what to do next. That is, how to go about securing a victory. Diplo? Domination? Conquest? Cultural? All of them may be possible from this point.

Here's my 400ad save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173756&stc=1&d=1207751086). I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how to proceed. Here are my thoughts (don't look if you're still planning to try his test map):

Some details:
* This is the first point in the entire game that I've been able to bribe Kubla to DoW Hatty, though they've been hating on each other for a long time. This may also be the last time, because Kubla's up to cautious with her and rising it seems.
* Some time ago Peter was listed as the most advanced in the world. Some unknown AIs were 2nd, 4th, and 7th, or something like that.
* I'm thinking one route would be to go for domination. Research Grenadiers next, plan to PA with Kubla and help him take the whole continent. One question is, would he just raze cities?
* Another route would be some diplomatic solution. I'm currently on a beeline for Mass Media. The question is how to get enough votes? Maybe beeline MM and when we trade for Chemsitry, start eliminating AIs on the other continent to increase the power of our votes on this continent.
* Cultural? I guess there will be some AI on the other continent who is a couple of cities moving toward legendary. Get a PA with that guy? (I've never done this and I'm skeptical.)
LC
Apr 09, 2008, 06:40 PM
Hey all,
...
I played a test map of my own last night and got a Domination victory around 1950 AD. I could actually pick my victory condition, me and my ally had one SS part left to build, there were 3 AIs left of which only one had more than 2 cities, and we had the majority of UN votes...

LC, you should beeline to Communism and get a PA with the strongest AI. From that point on you can just sit back and relax. The fun part is that you can start any war you want, including against your partners best friends, and he/she will obediently roll their Modern Armors any direction you point. :)

/Gnejs
Apr 10, 2008, 07:05 AM
... I'll make a couple observations based on some test games I've played with the same settings (different maps, but similar resources to what I think we'll find when we move the warrior) as food for thought:

1) I don't think cultural is a realistic VC for this one, though I'll let jesusin give the final word on that ;).
2) I can get MM 1300-1500AD without much difficulty
3) I won space before 1900AD with a late PA
4) I don't like the randomness of what happens on the other continent before you make contact
5) I'm avoiding (or managing) a DOW with only minor efforts (that has been the biggest surprise so far)
Apr 10, 2008, 07:31 AM
Culture is a very realistic VC. Please read Minor32 thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254130

I won my first try on 1822AD. And it was only Noble AI.
Anyway, even if we don't go after culture, we should all re-read the links in that thread, explaining the inner workings of PA.

jesusin
Apr 10, 2008, 07:48 AM
I know, I played that one. I got 6th :D. My concern is that since we're not philo and it's deity AI, we'll get launched on first. Why don't you try a couple test games to see if this is likely?
Apr 10, 2008, 12:36 PM
400ad save attempt number two (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173810&stc=1&d=1207821986)

I don't think this save is pre-1500ad to MM though. Is going for the GLib slowing me down? 1300-1500ad for MM sounds pretty good, but can we get a diplomatic victory? That seems realy tricky, not knowing half the AIs until optics, unless we warmonger them down to size.

...

In addition to what FiveAces has listed, my thoughts so far:
- If we're going to beeline Communism, then the sooner we get common war turns with our potential permanent allies the better (but not before we're able to manage it obviously).
- Getting to know all the AI in our hemisphere is useful not only for trading but also for knowing who's warring with whom. (In my save above, I think Peter is warring with Monty, but I can't join the fun, not knowing Monty yet...)

LC
Apr 10, 2008, 01:19 PM
Yes, I never build GL when going for an OCC diplo victory. I always go from writing straight through to MM, only researching philo on the side if I can't trade for it (and lib, of course). The goal is to get Oxford built asap. So by the time the AI has Lit it's too late to get GL up (along with everything else I need in place by then) before I get edu.

After hunting (I assume), have you tried beelining writing through PH and building Oracle for either alpha, CoL, or CS slingshot? We don't need early pottery or AH with that map, we're ind and there's marble. Just a thought :D.

Note my test games are with a land food and 1 gold/gems in BFC (and no marble). I'm assuming there's a reason we're starting with ag/min that's not apparent in the visible tiles. Plus there's got to be a food reason for that 2nd blue circle.

You are correct getting the votes for diplo VC is going to be hard with all the AI in play. It will be much easier though if Gyanthaar put all the US, maybe even the HR-loving ones on our starting continent. Can't know that until we start playing though. But I have the feeling most of the peaceful ones are on our continent to give everyone a decent shot at getting a win. And a lot of the peaceful ones like US. Just a guess though.

Speaking of getting in to Gyanthaar's head, is there any way we can ask Alan to move the warrior 1SW and make that the starting file so we can figure out where we're going to settle without having to wait to open the save? I can't imagine any team making a different initial move, so I don't think anyone would be upset. Might not be SGOTM kosher though.

Not that I'm in a hurry or anything... :mischief:

Oh yeah - one more thing - knowing all the AI's on your continent early has a drawback. It's like in AW - if they don't know you, they can't DOW on you. LC, are you sure you want Monty to know you exist right now?

Apr 10, 2008, 02:35 PM
A diplo victory looks very tricky. I didn't manage to pull it off even when close to the domination threshold.

This is how I played that that map:


Research path:
Masonry
Fishing
Wheel
BW
Pottery
Writing
Hunting
Archery <--- Detour just in case, probably cost me the HG...
Maths
Alpha 1120 BC
(Trade for sailing, myst, med, poly, priesthood)
Lit
CoL
CS
Philosophy
Paper
Edu
Liberalism 620 AD
...
Communism 1300 AD
...
Mass Media 1650 AD

Wonders:
Pyramids 2200 BC
Missed Hanging Gardens by a few turns 975 BC, should have chopped much more than I did.
Great Library 700 BC
NE
Angkor Wat 125 AD - not of much use
Oxford around 600 AD

PA with Peter around 1600 AD
Domination win by claiming the whole of starting continent by 1854 AD

I am pretty sure that this can be improved considerably by beelining Communism and setting up an ally better in advance, and also by going on the warpath as soon as the PA is in (I let Peter handle it all by himself, I think I built 10 units in the whole game...). I had Peter at +8-9 and pleased since the BCs but one single "you refused to help us" haunted me for a long time. It took three common wars to finally convince him. :)
Apr 10, 2008, 03:12 PM
You can't (unless you are very very lucky) win diplo once you have a PA because the other AI then also take their relations with your partner into account and unless they love both of you they won't vote.

SGOTM3 was a diplo/space game with 17 rivals, and multiple teams managed to win diplo (although it wasn't OCC, so self-voting might have been the reason, it would be interesting if any team had sufficient # of civs voting for them that they could have won on OCC).

I agree diplo will be hard, but with the OCC limitation, my initial thought is that diplo is going to be the fastest possible VC to achieve, assuming you can get the votes.

Also if the starting continent in the real game isn't big enough for dom, it pretty much rules conq and dom out. I guess we need to find that out asap.
Apr 10, 2008, 03:20 PM
With so many civs in the game the dom limits will be much lower than usual, around 50% for both pop and land. This might well be comparable in speed to a diplo win, and much safer.
Apr 10, 2008, 11:03 PM
Interesting.

I haven't tried the Oracle yet, but I've been playing with the resources as seen, plus iron. I'm curious how your Oxford bee-line compares to a bee-line that goes:

fishing+hunting>...pottery>...alpha>research or trade poly>lit(GLib + Nat'l Epic)>CoL>Philo/Pacifism(GS)>...Oxford

Pros:
+ 3 cottages (or more)
+ 27:gp: per turn excluding hired scientists
+ no GProph :gp:
+ trade for BW, IW, math, other techs sooner
+ can use trading to improve AI attitudes sooner

Cons:
- 2 forests for GLib = -1:health:
- 17-25% chance for GA (can be used for Radio or golden age). Alternatively, could skip Nat'l Epic.
- :science: wasted on poly, alpha, literature

Gyathaar is very deliberate. The warrior is exactly where he wants it to be. For sure.

On knowing AIs: You're right. No hurry to know warmongers before we want to start collecting common war turns, if at all. But there are some other benefits, such as not accidentally getting a -4 traded with our worst enemy with a future ally and getting up to Friendly asap with trading partners (critical for deity WFYABTA). I have been holding off on OBs until I knew which religious group I preferred and then OBs with them to get that religion to spread, so I could declare and get up to Friendly rapidly.
Apr 10, 2008, 11:41 PM
Do you intend to skip the Pyramids?

I have seen the Oracle go 2400 BC, maybe even earlier. Seems like an unnecessary beeline that won't pay for itself.


Ok, made a re-run again, got Liberalism 500 AD - intentionally delayed so I could pop Astronomy. Communism 800 AD. Unfortunately I forgot (twice!) to join the wars I instigated so the PA was delayed until 1300 AD. Domination victory 1665 AD.
In principle we should be able to get the PA around 1000 AD or even earlier, and a domination pre-1500 AD should be within reach.
Apr 11, 2008, 12:01 AM
I saw the Pyramids go pre 2600bc once :eek:. Have you been buiding them?
Apr 11, 2008, 12:29 AM
2600! :eek:

On the current map we can get them 2200 BC by going worker-wb-wb-Pyramids. Probably earlier but I have prioritized growth over production and haven't chopped more than one or two forests.

I think it is worth a try. We are looking at 16 turns of production at size 4 without any chops, each chop brings it down by ~2 turns. There is not much useful to build at that stage anyway, and the forests need to go for cottages sooner or later.
Apr 11, 2008, 12:39 AM
Finally figured out how to link to my save, I think (not that anyone cares):

173885
Apr 11, 2008, 01:06 AM
Okay, I remembered wrong. Only 2520 bc. :thumbsdown:
173888

Bismarck, industrious, had stone in capital FC. This is his second city:
173889
Apr 11, 2008, 09:19 AM
...
Where can the 4000BC save be found, please?It's here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6695085&postcount=1517
Apr 12, 2008, 09:55 AM
first 5 tries, with and without marble, I never got oracle. interestingly i built it the fastest without marble, in 2400bc. missed by 1 turn. So I've abandoned oracle and gone back to my default deity OCC research path for this map - hunting-fishing-AH-writing-alpha-myst-med-ph-CoL-CS-paper-edu-philo-lib

AH because it's faster than wheel+pottery. GL is worth discussing since it will likely enable the 2nd GS in time to buld edu.

I am delaying OB as well, picking only 1 for a trade route/rel until I know what the state of play is.
Apr 12, 2008, 01:02 PM
I'm building both the Pyramids and the GL, but more importantly I am settling all Great People. I guess that in your and LC's games you are relying on bulbs? Difficult to say which is best. Your way gets us Liberalism faster, my way gives a big boost to our raw science and production. I am sure that settling the GPs is better if we are going for a spaceship, but I am not so sure anymore about a domination. The possible finish date is now much earlier than what I first realized. :)

In my 1665 game I built one axe, two maces, one grenadier, and then spammed one Infantry per turn once we got to that stage. Good relations and a healthy tech lead is the best defense as it lets me bribe some AIs to help me if I am attacked. I tried to bring up a mace to 10 XP for the Heroic Epic but it was quite difficult to pick any good targets among the myriads of AI vs AI combats going on. :)
Apr 12, 2008, 01:27 PM
I still had a couple of forests in my BFC at the end of the game, so I should probably have chopped more than I did. Health is not that big an issue, with the PA we will get lots of health resources and Biology/Medicine comes pretty soon also. I got Medicine 1300 AD, and switched to Environmentalism and built a Hospital for a total of +9 health.

Btw, here is a screenie from my end of game, showing the boost from my 3 settled scientists and 5 settled engineers.

174024
Apr 12, 2008, 02:03 PM
Nope. I'm using the first for an academy. +50% sci is huge on OCC - it's 50% of your total, not just your best sci city, and we'll be in beauro, so it's 50% sci on top of 50% commerce. That's partly why I'm not liking the pyramids - late library = late academy = lots of lost early beakers. I can get lib by 350AD on the ShannonCT map with only the 1 GS for the academy. Agree if we're going for space we should settle the rest.

For dom I'm inclined to go academy, and try to bulb edu for Oxford for quicker comm/PA. I've not had difficulty with the AI getting Optics by the time I get Lib.

I'm guessing artillery are better than infantry. They can get CR they give collateral damage, and IIRC it's cheaper than assembly line. Plus in my game the AI had artillery (but not AL) by the time I made the PA, since they love getting rocketry asap. So I think we'll be facing rifles for a while - that's plenty of time to get artillery exp for CR3 by the time AI have inf.

What if there aren't enough tiles on the home continent for dom?

I got my lvl4 (and 5) grenedier while defending my city from 4 AI's at once. I sure don't recommend that strategy though :lol:
Apr 12, 2008, 02:51 PM
Yeah, of course the first GS goes into an academy. I get writing on the same turn as I complete the Pyramids (2200 BC), then I build/chop a library and run 2 scientists until the first GS pops (though in my game I got two engineers first, and the GS for an academy only 400 BC... the two engineers each provided 3 hammers and 6 beakers when settled so it isn't a disaster)

When going for domination the tech choices are more determined by what the partner AI already has. If they have 50+ rifles and 15 cannons it is much better to let them upgrade the rifles than the cannons. :)

In my 1660 domination game the most advanced units we faced were Rifles, Grenadiers, and Cannons, just very many of them. I kept all other AIs on my continent pretty backwards by instigating a lot of AI-vs-AI wars where they pillaged each others lands. :)

If our continent isn't big enough we simply make an ally on the other continent instead. Easy, isn't it? :)

The limiting factor for a PA so far in my games has not been research but the 40 turns of common war/DP. This is why I don't think we actually need to rush to Liberalism/Communism.
Apr 12, 2008, 03:44 PM
Fruitful discussion so far. Obviously, a lot of this depends on our full FC, our hemisphere, and our neighbors. Here is a list of the contingencies I've noticed so far:

Fat Cross:
- How many health points will we have in our extended FC? (may limit our early chopping)
- Will we have gems? (maybe don't need cottages)
- Will we have another food resource? (makes pyramids far more useful)

Hemisphere:
- Can we go for domination with our hemisphere? If not, do we target Optics earlier?

Neighbors:
- Are they peaceful?
- How much will they trade?
- How many do we know by Alpha?
- Do they research faster than the other hemisphere?
- Are they split into 2 or more religious groups?
- How many techs will we need to bribe them to DoW?
- How fast can we get them to Friendly?

Tech path:
- Do we trade Alpha asap to speed up AI->our research or keep it so we can bribe DoW sooner? (This may answer Gnejs' concern with 40-turn common war in time for Communism.)
- What's the optimum bee-line to Communism (if we decide on that)?
- How can we optimize our bee-line and forging an early DoW bribery? (Example: I'm thinking that as soon as we can pick a possible PA partner, we DON'T necessarily trade with him, but rather manipulate the trade situation so we collect enough techs bribe him to war. If Gnejs is right that we go too fast to COmmunism, we might even sidetrack to get drama or something so we can start our war sooner.)

That's all I can remember right now.
Apr 12, 2008, 08:13 PM
I've played the Shannon game for culture. Won in 1939AD. It is the best situation possible for culture:
1 single religious block and I am not infected, all the crazy guys in this continent, the best PA peaceful partners (Musa and Gnadhi) in the other continent.

Fishing-Wheel-Pott-Wri-Alpha-Lite-CS-Liber-MilTra-Comm
Library-Academy-Parthenon

Survived the wars easily, losing only some cottages. Communism 1400AD. Two options here, immediate PA with Spain, with only 3 cities but 3 religions (what I did) or wait for the rest of the 40t DP to PA with France (6cities, 2 religions, will explore this possibility later).

PA 1400AD, I had only 6 GA then, which I added to the target cities of Isabel. I got another 8GA, with diminishing returns when added.

Risked to built UN, but never could pass FS, they were all too small. And was forced into Emanc at the end. Musa and Roos signed a PA too, but they were far from winning.

Will add more info when I try the other PA.

Erkon
Apr 17, 2008, 10:38 PM
Apr 12, 2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks to the guidance from LC, these attachments should actually work now: (blame LC, not me, if they don't :))

Screenshot of settled specialists:
174067

Gnejs' test map:
174068
Apr 12, 2008, 10:26 PM
Well, I also did also a few tests.
My map. (http://www.h-klar.de/SG7/sg7t1.Civ4SavedGame)
The map is designed for low risk of war early (though I anyway got killed once by Hatty!?! around 2000BC - maybe an additional risk building pyramids early and by that being a juicy target).
In a few more tries I never was declared on at all and just went to war once the bad guys declared on my friends.
BTW, without Pyramids, beelining alphabet (via hunting - AH) and literature I reached Oxford and liberalism-astronomy faster.
I didn't play any game to completion. I'm pretty sure peaceful diplo doesn't work on this map as typically one of the nice guys will be the opponent.
I also had no luck making friends on the other continent. The ones I tried died in the mutual struggle wars (ok should have helped them a bit ;)).
Apr 13, 2008, 02:27 AM
Thanks, klarius! :goodjob:

First try on your map, I got a Domination win 1595 AD. Hatty just has to be the most timid of all AIs when it comes to waging war. I couldn't have picked a worse ally. :lol:

Same stategy as ever:
Pyramids 2320 BC
GL 950 BC
NE+Academy,Settle all other GPs
Liberalism 300 AD
Communism 920 AD
PA with Hatty 1080 AD

275-740 AD common war with Hatty against Toku
760-960 AD common war against Monty
980-1100 AD common war against Alex, ends in PA :)
1100-end mop up the rest of the continent. Assembly line was the key since all AIs had Grenadiers and the stronger had Rifles. Hatty needs the tech edge since she is worthless at fighting... :)
Apr 13, 2008, 07:10 AM
Your timing makes sense since you are getting masonry and wheel before writing. So you're delaying writing (and the library/academy) by a few turns in exchange for the pyramids. That's not a bad tradeoff. However skipping them and going straight to alpha allows you to trade writing with most AI's for almost all the missing 1st and 2nd level techs immediately - or are you still able to trade writing by the time you get to alpha? If so I'm inclined to think your way might be best if we don't need to tech as fast as possible due to the 40 turn constraint.

I don't think we should trade alpha until it's broken. CoL comes along fast enough afterwards if we need something, and we want to have as many tradeable techs as possible to instigate wars. Breaking alpha early means we likely can't keep monarchy, currency, etc. as tradeable for long.

In my game I had to do most of the heavy lifting with my artillery stack. My partner was pretty useless in taking cities. It took him 30+ turns to get a single city defended by longbows when he had rifles. Of the 7 heavily defended cities we faced, I took 5 and he took 2. So in that case, getting him AL to upgrade his rifles wasn't nearly as helpful as getting me artillery.

So far the limiting factor for me has also been the 40 turns for the PA.

If our continent isn't big enough for dom, it might be quicker to cover it anyway and take 1-2 cities on the other one rather than a late PA with an overseas AI.
Apr 13, 2008, 07:21 AM
In my dom win the last city to fall needed 11 turns to come out of anarchy and pop borders. It occurred to me that if I had saved the GA I popped (or gotten 1 from Music) I could have gifted it to the AI in that city in hopes they would bomb it for an immediate win.

Anybody know if the AI will bomb a city out of anarchy instead of saving for a Golden Age?
Apr 13, 2008, 08:56 AM
In my cultural try my partner had a GA which they kept on ice for the whole game. Whenever they got a second GA, they would bulb it.

Vanilla AI doesn't bomb GAs unless in a city severely culturally pressed.

You can add your GA as a superspecialist, though, in order to pop borders faster.
Apr 13, 2008, 09:23 AM
Can you test an interim save from that attempt where you DOW and have them take a city to see if they use the GA on ice to bomb it out of anarchy immediately? I'm wondering if they will treat that the same as being culture pressed.

In my game I was only 5 tiles short after taking the last city, so I only needed it to come out of anarchy - settling wouldn't have gotten a win any faster.
Apr 13, 2008, 09:32 AM
I assume you and Gnejs are getting a good idea of the sequence your Partner AI selects in capturing cities. If so, then a possible way to lessen the come-out-of-anarchy time would be to predict which city or two will be last to fall and pillage and occupy most/all of their food tiles far in advance, thereby starving the city down as much as possible before it gets captured.
Apr 13, 2008, 09:39 AM
Well they "select" whichever city I tell them to ;) it's one of the "let's discuss something else" options. They don't necessarily to it very well though.

Your starvation strategy works if given enough time+units to pillage before taking it. However when I DOW'd on the last AI it was conquered (4 cities) in IIRC about 10-15 turns - basically as fast as my partner's conquering unit could reach the most remote city (by then I had knocked everything down to 1 defender) - leaving not much time for pillaging/starvation. I could have DOW'd earlier and gone in to pillage, however then that AI immediately goes for my partner's border cities, since they're not that well defended yet. As it was 2 border cities fell on the turn after the DOW and had to be retaken on the next turn, which slows my partner's advance on the final one.

I think if the GA gift/bomb works it's faster overall. Otherwise starvation and trying to leave a smaller city for last will probably have to do. Or alternatively we could raze the last city if the resulting culture distribution is still sufficient for dom.
Apr 13, 2008, 09:49 AM
Excellent! That gives us a number of factors to work with. We can choose a last city that works by culture creep after razing. Alternatively, we choose the one that will have the least pop when we're done messing with it. We might even choose the last AI based on one of these principles, especially if one AI has an Antarctic, food-less city.
Apr 13, 2008, 10:24 AM
The AI will never bomb a last city, so that's no option.
From the SDK it's a necessary condition that the team's plot culture is below 60%. And that's not the case when the previous owner is dead.
Apr 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
Darn. Well, maybe we won't need to take all the cities.

Scratch the raze option for the last city - a city is "razed" for culture purposes while it's revolting. However razing might be useful if say the next to last city is completely surrounded by the other cities' culture or its culture is not needed for dom - if we raze it then our partner won't need leave a garrison there and might get a unit to the last city faster.

I think I'm going to try klarius's map next. I want to see how fast they can get space if you help them properly. IIRC the HOF dates are faster than the dom dates Gnejs has been getting. We'll be slower given the sub-optimal start and super-crowded map, but we should check it out - especially since we don't know if our home continent is sufficient for domination.
I should be able to report on that in a couple days.
Apr 13, 2008, 01:11 PM
Well, I tried again my map. Didn't play it out, just to PA with Hatty in 450AD.
Alphabet beeline (fishing-hunting-AH;)-writing-alpha).

Trade aggressively and get Hatty on Monte already with alphabet (after his demise Alex and later still Huyana and Saladin).

Then literature -> GLIB, drama -> globe.

CoL (partially)-CS-paper

Education (bulbed a GS) 400BC, liberalism->astronomy 100BC.
Another GS helped with sci method.

Communism in 450AD and Hatty is ready for PA.

The save (http://www.h-klar.de/SG7/s7t%20AD-0450.Civ4SavedGame)
Apr 13, 2008, 01:43 PM
I hadn't thought about going lit-drama before CoL-CS. I usually beeline CS after alpha for beauro. But early drama is definitely good since with this setup AI get monarchy later than I'm used to. Lit for GL would seem to not be better (6bpt vs 50%com+h), except that you might lose GL if you wait until after CS. Oh wait - that's also 6gpp while you're getting CS, which means you get edu sooner. Hmmm. I think I'll try drama-CoL-CS-Lit and see if GL still there or maybe I can trade for Lit - where's Mansa when you need him?

Klarius - can you post the save right before you made the PA (if you've made it in the attached - I can't open it at work) I want to see how fast I can get space and for that it's better to delay the PA as long as possible so your partner can keep trading.
Apr 13, 2008, 02:00 PM
Not bad for an hour and a half's work. Think you could get that down to an hour? ;)

I'm curious about Hatty's power when she was willing to sign the PA. WastinTime's write-up indicates she won't sign if she's #1. Was she?

I think that early PA trumps any other solution for increasing our research rate.
Apr 13, 2008, 02:03 PM
No the save was after the PA.
But this one (http://www.h-klar.de/SG7/sg7t2.Civ4SavedGame) is before.
But I doubt that delaying the PA helps a lot. Hatty should get bigger for a good space date, IMO.
The others are already pretty back in tech.
Apr 13, 2008, 02:13 PM
Hatty was No 1 in power. But that doesn't matter.
In contrast to common believe it hasn't to do with the power ranking directly.
The condition for denial is that the team would have more than half of the total power of the world.
This, BTW, also means that the solution of gifting units to the potential partner if he tells you your power is to high doesn't work. He will just flip then to his own power being to high.
Apr 13, 2008, 07:57 PM
This definitely sounds like an improvement! I think I will grab your 450 AD save and see what kind of domination play it leads to.

We also need to find out how much difference it makes who you pick for the PA. So far I guess we have gone with the score/tech leader, but I have a suspicion that a unit spammer like Monty could be quite powerful also. Maybe it doesn't matter that the ally is backwards because as soon as we give them access to all our techs they will mass upgrade just the same. In that case our own research pace may become much more important.
Apr 13, 2008, 09:44 PM
Tried it, got a domination 1500 AD. The opponents on our continent seemed to be slightly more equal to us in techs this time. I waited for Rifles, then took out Cyrus (Kyrus in klarius german version :) ), but when I was about to go after Frederick he also had rifles. Had to pick some softer targets until we had Infantry. It was also almost impossible to bribe any of the other on our continent into any wars. I had some more success with this in the previous try, very helpful when trying to lure away an AIs huge stacks before declaring.

Still, 1500 AD is the best result so far. I wonder how a peaceful approach would fare? Diplo might actually be possible with all the good relations. Some common wars might help further.
Apr 15, 2008, 06:44 AM
I took klarius's 450AD save and turned it into 1816 space win. Partnered with Hatty eventually, but she wasn't the most optimal choice for space - she had the cities, but not many cottages. I also ignored the other continent and was eventually DOW'd by Izzy who landed about 6 units that I had to deal with which slowed my down a bit.

I'm going to guess early-mid 1700's for space is doable and possibly late 1600's if everything works out perfectly - such as quickly expanding a cottage-building AI to say 6 cities.

That means space is not faster than dom if our home continent is big enough. But we need to see how long it takes the AI to get units across the ocean in case our home continent isn't big enough - in that case space might actually be faster.

Does anyone know if the more peaceful leaders like Hatty will even send an army overseas? She was at war with HC and Saladin forever and never sent a unit.
Apr 16, 2008, 02:27 PM - Also 1500ad domination with klarius 450ad save
I tried going after Cyrus with grenadiers and that worked fine. I think I was in position to win many turns sooner this way, but I made some lesser choices. Good decisions: I put Hatty onto Gunpowder and saved the free GM for us for a GAge (otherwise Hatty gets it). Then Chemistry> Steel for cannons. Then onward towards Rifles and Infantry. After Economics, I revolted to Theocracy (for double promotion) and Free Market (free civic change) and then spammed several cats till Chemistry. I upgraded the cats down in Hatty's city just before crossing the borders and DoWing Cyrus.

Bad decisions: Built Iron Works way too late. Should have gone after Gandhi before Mansa/Washington.

Troubles: Took me a while to get the 4th level for Heroic Epic.

Overall thoughts:
1. Key events: Early DoW-bribing to get early PA partner + level 4 for HE + cats/cannons to soften AI targets.
2. Having cats/cannons ready in advance means Hatty pillages roads much less and thus speeds up movement to next target a little bit.
3. :health: IS a potential problem for max unit production in the end game. The less we chop the better. The less our research strategy relies on cottages instead of farms, the better. (I turned the two southern cottages into farms.)
Apr 16, 2008, 03:21 PM
Well looks like we're definitely going dom if our home continent is big enough. LC you might want to check how many turns it takes to grab a city across the ocean in case we need to do this.

Any chance Gyanthaar has created a 3 continent map? Or that we're on a continent with only ~1/3 landmass? Dom might not be the best way to finish then.

One way to try to get a lvl 4 unit earlier would be to send a couple promoted with woodsman down to the front while we're mutual warring for PA turns and fortify them on a forest hill to be suicided against and build up experience.
Apr 16, 2008, 11:13 PM - 1320ad domination with klarius 450ad save
Hatty beelined GP>Chem>Steel, I finished Econ first (GA is not too big for OCC, I think, only got me IronWorks 2 turns faster). prebuilt knight, cat, galleon, revolted to Theo/FreeMarket, then built cats till Steel, then IWorks. By then had the level 4 knight and built HE. Definitely the way to go.

As soon as Hatty upgraded to Grens I DoWed Cyrus (took a page from Gnejs' book). This turned out to be critical. By leveraging the new units asap, I was able to take out everyone before I even needed infantry.

After Steel: Rep Parts>Rifling>Steam Power>Railroad (while waiting to trade for Nationalism>COnstitution>Corporation). I was careful not to trade to DoW targets to slow their research. Railroads were important because Hatty immediately built rail everywhere and that enabled me to take out Gandhi's NW city after a 10-turn DoP+Corporation and then immediately go far South to pick off the last German city and a Vicky city. (Hatty decided to raze a Cyrus city with a bunch of World Wonders...:crazyeye:).

Key points:
0. Level 4 = 10 XP (not 17--d'oh--I forgot).
1. Beeline grens>Ironworks>HE...(never needed)...Rifles>Infantry
2. Cannons rock--Hatty cleans up.
3. I was very careful to determine which cities I needed to capture first for territory expansion, and which ones my or Hatty's culture would subsume by themselves. For klarius' map that was: Cyrus>Ghandi>Washington>Mansa...>Freddie(no coming out of resistance needed for his cities at all).
4. Railroads rock. Drastically speed up the endgame. More important than Infantry, if we're far enough ahead.
5. Gandhi and Washington both emptied their cities to attack our capital!!! Even better than getting them to DoW someone else.

Still made a couple minor goofs, but nothing major. This is about the best I can do with this save, I think. I haven't tried going to the other continent yet.
Apr 17, 2008, 03:24 PM
5. Gandhi and Washington both emptied their cities to attack our capital!!! Even better than getting them to DoW someone else.

I noticed that too on the other map - I DOW on Peter and move a stack of CR3 artillery on a tile next to his city on the same turn. There're about 12-15 rifles in there. Next turn, there's only 4 rifles. But two of KK's border cities fell IBT (then were then retaken IBT by KK). So there's something in the AI "logic" that's telling them they only need to keep 4-5 defenders per city, and then can go on offense with the rest. We can definitely use this to our advantage and go with smaller attack stacks. It's sort of like worker-baiting.
Apr 17, 2008, 05:38 PM
This is typically Vanilla behaviour, where the AI is rather reckless with his units. In Warlords they stay in their cities, although not necessarily in the threatened city. I haven't noticed that the AI adjusts their defense depending on the threat, perhaps klarius can klarify/konfirm that?

Gnejs
Apr 17, 2008, 11:52 PM
Checking in. Hi team! :)

klarius
Apr 17, 2008, 11:52 PM
Checking in

This is typically Vanilla behaviour, where the AI is rather reckless with his units. In Warlords they stay in their cities, although not necessarily in the threatened city. I haven't noticed that the AI adjusts their defense depending on the threat, perhaps klarius can klarify/konfirm that?

The defenses are in fact the same in Vanilla and Warlords.
2 defenders + 1 for capital + 1 for every 9 population.
If the others move out is a question of if they have another job to do. There is the difference between vanilla and warlords as the units will not be as likely to go on suicide missions in warlords.

Being in danger (doesn't matter if it's one warrior or 1000 modern armor) will keep 1-2 more units in the town unless they can directly attack,

Mītiu Ioan
Apr 18, 2008, 02:14 AM
Checking in ! :)

One curiosity : is Cultural Victory possible in OCC game ???

LowtherCastle
Apr 18, 2008, 03:00 AM
Yeehawww!!! This is going to be fun.

Mītiu, are you already back or are you still going on you vacation?

Thanks for assembling our pms, Erkon, now we just someone to summarize them...

EDIT: @klarius: Couple of questions. 1. Do you know the mechanics of when an AI is willing to be bribed to DoW and what price they're willing to accept? 2. How did you manage to get Hatty to DoW Monty (or did you bribe Monty to DoW Hatty)? Did you manipulate their relations in advance? Did you do your tech trading to have a certain amount of techs to give to Hatty? Did you pick Hatty because she's creative and was at the top of the score charts? (Or was it just blind luck that Hatty was willing to DoW? ;)) When I attempted your save, Hatty was cautious with Monty when I did the AH...Alpha bee-line.

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 05:15 AM
I bribed Hatty, Mansa and Freddy, but gave up on the latter two, when I saw that they weren't getting any nice empires.
Cyrus, Gandhi and Washington need to be friendly before you can bribe them. That's too late, except somebody declares on them.

Edit:
Note Hatty and Freddy need to be pleased with you and annoyed with the target to accept.
Mansa will do it at cautious/cautious.

LowtherCastle
Apr 18, 2008, 07:13 AM
Okay, so we'll have to wait and see which AIs we get (if any). What about the cost of bribing DoW? Any way we can determine that in advance?

morpheus11
Apr 18, 2008, 07:51 AM
Checking in.

Good Luck everyone. I might not have much to say, but I will always be watching :cool:

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 08:01 AM
Okay, so we'll have to wait and see which AIs we get (if any). What about the cost of bribing DoW? Any way we can determine that in advance?
In fact yes. But I don't have the formula with me.
There's nevertheless the problem what's the value of our techs (they might have partially researched).
My way was to just trade for techs with the people I don't want to bribe mainly and hope I have then enough. Worked well enough on this map. :)

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 11:13 AM
Ok, the value of a DoW is:

(50+game_turn + 8*no_enemy_cities) * ((enemy_power+100)/(power+100)) * attitude_fac

attitude_fac= 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 for
furious .. friendly

3 times the value if the target is not a "land_target"=8 adjacent tiles
6 times the value if we are not at war with them

So an example:
Turn 100 Hatty is annoyed with Monte who has 2 cities and about the same power.

(50+100+2*8)*1*1.5 = 254

LowtherCastle
Apr 18, 2008, 11:24 AM
Value in beakers?

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 11:33 AM
Value in beakers?
This is the value in gold. All trades are evaluated in a gold equivalent.

The value of techs is a whole other can of worms, but the value of remaining beakers is generally higher than the corresponding sum in gold.

Gnejs
Apr 18, 2008, 12:16 PM
Ok, the value of a DoW is:

(50+game_turn + 8*no_enemy_cities) * ((enemy_power+100)/(power+100)) * attitude_fac

attitude_fac= 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 for
furious .. friendly

3 times the value if the target is over the ocean
6 times the value if we are not at war with them

So an example:
Turn 100 Hatty is annoyed with Monte who has 2 cities and about the same power.

(50+100+2*8)*1*1.5 = 254

klarius, how very interesting! Is it 6*254 = 1524 if we are not at war with Monty? If that is the case then we should declare war ourselves first. Nothing for the faint-hearted though... :eek:

Btw, doesn't the attitude towards us matter? What about those "we just don't like you enough", is that just because the cost is steeper than what we can afford?

What about the dog-piling? In my test games I first couldn't make an AI declare war, but once I got another AI to DoW on the target the first AI was suddenly willing to join in, often for a very low price.

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 01:28 PM
Sure we have to declare first.
That's really no problem early in the game when the AI is not prepared.
I never saw an AI unit in our land in the test games.

The attitude towards us doesn't matter for the cost.
The AIs have different thresholds when they will make an alliance at all. No money will make them declare if they don't have this attitude. This ranges from cautious to friendly. If you don't have this they will tell you they don't like you enough.
They can also refuse if the target is too powerful. Then they say they have nothing to gain. This can be helped by others at war with the AI as they take into account all partners in the power calculation.
They can also refuse when they have already a war or are planning one. Then they have enough at their hands.

Erkon
Apr 18, 2008, 04:00 PM
I've made a test map but have not yet played it. Please report any errors and I will correct them tomorrow.

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 10:18 PM
Ok, the value of a DoW is:

(50+game_turn + 8*no_enemy_cities) * ((enemy_power+100)/(power+100)) * attitude_fac

attitude_fac= 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 for
furious .. friendly

3 times the value if the target is over the ocean
6 times the value if we are not at war with them

So an example:
Turn 100 Hatty is annoyed with Monte who has 2 cities and about the same power.

(50+100+2*8)*1*1.5 = 254

Important correction:
The factor three is not only for over the ocean but also if the target is not a neighbour with at least 8 adjacent tiles.
So that restricts the cheap wars quite a bit.

klarius
Apr 18, 2008, 10:20 PM
I've made a test map but have not yet played it. Please report any errors and I will correct them tomorrow.
You have coast to the east, where the original has a river.

jesusin
Apr 19, 2008, 12:41 AM
Hi, checking in.

Thanks for joining, FiveAces and morpheus11!


Cultural victories are feasible. The worst thing about them is watching how your partner does every possible effort to avoid victory. Given the domination dates that have been achieved in the test games, I don't think a cultural victory will be faster.


I'd like to see a very early Alphabet, in order to start influencing the world. And I'd like to know if our continent is big enough for domination asap. This two reasons make me want to meet our neighbours asap, and probably OB with some of them asap too. In general I prefer the Pottery way to the AH way, but I can be convinced otherwise.

Erkon, in the PA rules you might want to add that you can get a PA with 40 turns of DP too. And that 10 turns of common war and 30 turns of DP won't do, it is 40 turns of one or the other.
Also our GP can be used in the partner cities only by settling them as superspecialists. Any other use requieres our gifting the GP and hoping the AI will know what to do with them.

Erkon
Apr 19, 2008, 01:23 AM
You have coast to the east, where the original has a river.

I am aware of that. I didn't want to add more land to the east on the map since I didn't want to remove any tiles elsewhere, and to avoid too large continent I ignored the river. And I didn't want to respawn map to end up in NW corner... :mischief:

...
I'd like to see a very early Alphabet, in order to start influencing the world. And I'd like to know if our continent is big enough for domination asap. This two reasons make me want to meet our neighbours asap, and probably OB with some of them asap too. In general I prefer the Pottery way to the AH way, but I can be convinced otherwise.

This is my impression to be the best way to play early on as well, although I have not yet tried a test game. Does anyone volunteer to write down the general strategy for this game? And a candidate tech path? I.e. what techs shall we research? The build queue will then be easier to decide on.

klarius
Apr 19, 2008, 03:13 AM
Well, test games are nice for extreme strategies, but do we want that in the real game.
I died 2 of about 10 times before alphabet because one of the peaceful neighbours (Hatty and Washington) decided to come with a 4-5 axe stack against my 2 warriors.
Some archers could help against that. Obviously this would mean archery (after AH or even after writing) and supporting the hunting-AH route.

Short of that the best strategy is bee-line alphabet.
Fishing-hunting-AH-writing-alphabet or directly Fishing-AH don't differ much as you can have the high commerce fur tile.
The pottery route is similar, but doesn't really help as there is no real time to build and fill the granary. And cottaging our only non forest tile (where everybody expects to be a resource) is also not much benefit. The tile is still worse than the furs then for a long time.

From alphabet (trading for all basic techs + IW and sometimes math), I had the best results with literature (GLib) and drama. Good chances to trade for CoL then (meaning CS isn't delayed by much) and happiness is already becoming an issue.
Then CS-paper-education. It was always possible to trade for all techs up to optics plus some other techs. Sometimes one can also get philosophy (depends on who has it - it isn't wide spread), otherwise one has to research it.

I did build a scout shortly before writing, made OB with everybody (even the bad guys, until somebody demanded I quit trading with them) and then scouted the whole continent. I don't see any downside - we cannot avoid OB between the AI and their scouts will come to us sooner or later. Better we know where they are and what land they have.

FiveAces
Apr 19, 2008, 05:47 AM
Hello all. Checking in. Thanks for letting me join the team.

A couple of clarifications on jesusin's statement about great persons - you can use a GS to build an academy in a PA's city. This one might be useful - they don't always build their academy in the right city, and their beakers are better than ours. Other nuances that might not be so helpful - You can also use a GE to rush-build as well - but obviously the AI controls the queue so the have to be building whatever before you can rush it. Along these lines, I would guess you could also use a GP to build a shrine if they had a holy city but I haven't tried this before so not sure.

I support early alpha through hunting/AH. Early pottery is of limited use since we're not fin and there aren't any FP's and the visible non-forest square is plains and I also think it will have a resource (FWIW my guess is iron). Early wheel only allows us to hook up the furs earlier since we don't have masonry (I do not support the pyramids). However since our growth is by seafood we have to build workboats to grow; in my test games the happy cap was reached only a few turns before alpha - not enough to justify self-research of the wheel.

Detouring to wheel/pottery and/or archery means when we get to alpha it will be more likely that most AI's have writing, which limits the trading we can do before we need to break alpha.

As for needing archery, in my many deity OCC HoF games, I cannot recall a single instance where I was DOW'd on before alpha. I'm very surprised it happened twice to klarius. Perhaps the crowded map had something to do with it. I am more concerned about the need for archery for barb defence. There won't be many as the map is so crowded, but there appears to be an icy area to the NE which will resist initial AI expansion. Even in my test game on klarius's map where he's got Mansa nearby, barbs still spawned (warrior+archer). I manuvered my 2 warriors to engage on forest hills and won, but I would rather not have to sweat the RNG on turn 20-something.

That being said, we're virtually guaranteed to be able to trade writing for archery with someone the turn we get alpha. I'm not sure what my recommendation on self-researching archery is. I would rather avoid it, but I don't want to die early either.

Also given the barb threat, whoever plays the early turns needs to make sure the starting warrior doesn't get trapped behind AI borders. We can't afford to wait for writing/OB to get him back.

I am not sure that we need to prioritize knowledge of sufficient domination size early on. I would rather not spend hammers on exploratory workboats, scouts, or wandering warriors. I think the general education beeline we have been discussing applies to all VC's. Paper is on this beeline, and any AI we trade with should have run those scouts around in the early turns so that we can see the whole continent the turn we get paper. In summary, I don't think we are going to do anything differently because we know the continent size during say research of CS instead of waiting until after paper.

EDIT: klarius made a good point about knowing where the AI's are and what resources they have and making OB's initially. I have one question about this strategy though - is the AI DOW decision based solely on the power graph, or do they also take into account how many units are in a city and where that city is? Since we're surrounded by forest, those scouts can't ever see our city unles we OB. So if the AI will never DOW unless it knows exactly where a city is, then we don't want to OB early. Can anyone clarify this?

I support early self-researching of drama. In my test games, it took forever for monarchy to be tradeable. Plus, to use HR effectively you have to build warriors as you grow - they are cheap but their hammers could be better used for say the GL. And it's trade ammo for backfilling and bribing - which is both offensive for the PA and defensive if we are attacked.

I've bolded my key points to make them stand out from the support in the post, but if this is annoying/confusing please just let me know and I'll stop.

LowtherCastle
Apr 19, 2008, 07:07 AM
I don't see any downside - we cannot avoid OB between the AI and their scouts will come to us sooner or later. @klarius: There is some folklore about what prompts an AI to DoW us, such as having OBs with them, so they can find out our capital is guarded by only a warrior. Do you know the actual code for this?

In playing your save, I got clobbered at least once. In ShannonCT's, I got clobbered a couple of times. And I didn't play either ten times.

klarius
Apr 19, 2008, 07:29 AM
... and their beakers are better than ours.

Not true. In PA the beakers of both partners are applied with the average of the difficulty levels. So we both play monarch then for beakers.



I support early alpha through hunting/AH. Early pottery is of limited use since we're not fin and there aren't any FP's and the visible non-forest square is plains and I also think it will have a resource (FWIW my guess is iron). Early wheel only allows us to hook up the furs earlier since we don't have masonry (I do not support the pyramids). However since our growth is by seafood we have to build workboats to grow; in my test games the happy cap was reached only a few turns before alpha - not enough to justify self-research of the wheel.

We are financial. But still agree.


Detouring to wheel/pottery and/or archery means when we get to alpha it will be more likely that most AI's have writing, which limits the trading we can do before we need to break alpha.

I want to use alpha on the first turn (or second at most) anyway. You will not be able to trade for BW, masonry, poly, IW w/o alpha. In my tests myst, wheel and archery maybe sailing or pottery is all you can get with writing. There isn't anybody lacking a lot basic techs as in lower difficulty levels.


As for needing archery, in my many deity OCC HoF games, I cannot recall a single instance where I was DOW'd on before alpha. I'm very surprised it happened twice to klarius. Perhaps the crowded map had something to do with it. I am more concerned about the need for archery for barb defence.

We are a very juicy target with our resources that many of the people lack and our low power. If somebody gets a RNG roll to go to war early they will war us.

Barbs shouldn't be a problem. I only once had a barb enter my land (note an average of 3 cities per civ needed for that). That was well after alpha so I could have easily handled it and even then it was killed by a friendly American.

I'm not sure what my recommendation on self-researching archery is.

The question is really: do we take a risk for a better chance for gold. The risk is certainly there (though maybe Gyathaar managed to make it lower than in our tests).


Also given the barb threat, whoever plays the early turns needs to make sure the starting warrior doesn't get trapped behind AI borders. We can't afford to wait for writing/OB to get him back.

I'm building a warrior first in my tests. No use to build a worker early just for some minings. So depending on with or w/o hunting, I'm building the worker after first or second workboat. I rather have the first warrior behind the lines doing some more scouting if possible.



EDIT: klarius made a good point about knowing where the AI's are and what resources they have and making OB's initially. I have one question about this strategy though - is the AI DOW decision based solely on the power graph, or do they also take into account how many units are in a city and where that city is? Since we're surrounded by forest, those scouts can't ever see our city unles we OB. So if the AI will never DOW unless it knows exactly where a city is, then we don't want to OB early. Can anyone clarify this?

The AI is cheating. They know where the cities are. They still need to scout a route. But we cannot avoid that by not doing OB. They just need OB with our neighbors.
And BTW war declaration has nothing to do with knowledge of cities. It's based on RNG, proximity of border tiles and power ratio.

klarius
Apr 19, 2008, 07:49 AM
@klarius: There is some folklore about what prompts an AI to DoW us, such as having OBs with them, so they can find out our capital is guarded by only a warrior. Do you know the actual code for this?

The AI first decides to go to war at all by a RNG roll. This is low probability for the peaceful civs, but not impossible.
Then it checks another RNG against it's attitude thresholds. That means the other peaceful teams are out of the game already, because they are pleased with them from the beginning (but we will not manage pleased before alphabet).
Then they check against the power threshold. That probably leaves only us for the peaceful concurrents as the bad boys probably have too much power.

If more than one should be possible then the proximity is taken into account.

That's it, the decision is taken and the preparation starts. Several turns later a stack we cannot handle will enter our land.

All in all: if one of the peaceful civs gets the unlikely early war roll, they will go for us most likely.
It's less of a problem with the bad boys, if they aren't directly adjacent to our border. They might find a different target.

Gnejs
Apr 19, 2008, 09:08 AM
Getting an early religion can be helpful in gaining some powerful friends. In my test games I tried to get OB with every AI of a particular religious block (and only them), and then adopt that religion as soon as it spread.

Once we get to Alphabet we should be relatively safe. What is the earliest turn we can get it, and what is the earliest after contact that an AI may DoW us?

LowtherCastle
Apr 19, 2008, 09:22 AM
Seems like we have a fairly clear plan until we see our full fat cross.

Here is a list of the 6 creative leaders and their plusses and minuses as PA partners for us. Ranked from best (1) to worst (4), in my judgment:

Rank. AI--other trait--RazeCityProb--Favorite Civic--DoWAtt Us/Enemy--UnitAIWeightModifier
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Kubla--Aggressv--00 RazeCityProb--HereditaryRule--Pleased/Cautiou--100 on AttackCity
1. Catty--Financal--00 RazeCityProb--HereditaryRule--Cautiou/Pleased--100 on AttackCounter

2. Louis--Industry--00 RazeCityProb--HereditaryRule--Cautiou/Cautiou--100 on AttackCity

3. Hatty--Religios--50 RazeCityProb--HereditaryRule--Pleased/Annoyed--no special weight
3. Fredd--Philosop--50 RazeCityProb--UniversalSuffr--Pleased/Annoyed--100 on worker

4. Cyrus--Expansiv--00 RazeCityProb--Representation--Friendl/Furious--100 on Attack

positive characteristics
negative characteristics

Kubla, Catty, and Louis seem to have the best features. Kubla is probably the best war machine. Catty is financial and is the only AI we can bribe to DoW someone she's pleased with.

Hatty and Cyrus will raze cities. Cyrus won't be bribed to DoW till we're friendly with him and he's furious with the target.

klarius, please advise if any of this requires a more sophisticated understanding of the code (such as the raze city probability)

LowtherCastle
Apr 19, 2008, 10:04 AM
klarius got Alphabet on T45 and Communism on T132, so we have some leeway there in terms of getting the 40 turns of common war with our ally. Researching Archery may not slow us down all that much. But we still need to see our FC first and find out how close our neighbors are. Furthermore, AH may give us horses on the plains tile or under the settler.

If I were Gyathaar and I wanted to give the weaker teams every chance of surviving, I'd put horses on the plains tile, copper under the settler and iron in the extended FC. And I'd not give any adjacent neighbors copper or horses. Only iron.

klarius
Apr 19, 2008, 10:11 AM
Getting an early religion can be helpful in gaining some powerful friends. In my test games I tried to get OB with every AI of a particular religious block (and only them), and then adopt that religion as soon as it spread.

Once we get to Alphabet we should be relatively safe. What is the earliest turn we can get it, and what is the earliest after contact that an AI may DoW us?
Well getting an religion can be difficult.
I just played Erkons map (pretty sloppy) and didn't have a religion spread by the time of PA. A lot worse science than my map (communism in 1000AD only), because the AI was not really helpful and I got 3 artists.
Also a bit of war (after alphabet) with some pillaging.
But OTOH heroic epic is already built and I have 4 PA partners to chose from.

I cannot say what the earliest they can DoW. They can do the decision right away. Then it depends how long it takes them to assemble their initial stack. But the 2 bad games I had, it was before alphabet came in (which comes around turn 45-50). I'm anyway always beelining it, for sure not wasting more than 2-3 turns. Difference is more if there are luxes to trade once I hit the happiness limit.

Gnejs
Apr 19, 2008, 10:26 AM
klarius got Alphabet on T45 and Communism on T132, so we have some leeway there in terms of getting the 40 turns of common war with our ally. Researching Archery may not slow us down all that much. But we still need to see our FC first and find out how close our neighbors are. Furthermore, AH may give us horses on the plains tile or under the settler.

If I were Gyathaar and I wanted to give the weaker teams every chance of surviving, I'd put horses on the plains tile, copper under the settler and iron in the extended FC. And I'd not give any adjacent neighbors copper or horses. Only iron.

I am wondering if we should throw in BW to let us chop a bit and, with luck, get us copper. In my first test game I was DoWed by Catherine just as I hooked up the copper. Despite her sending 15 units into my land I didn't lose a single improvement and even got Priesthood from her in return for peace. Defending axes in a hill city are that good before catapults are around.

Erkon
Apr 19, 2008, 10:29 AM
FiveAces, have you read klarius korner from SGOTM6? There's a lot of stuff there from our previous game where klarius explained the mechanism for a great many things. Once or twice he's wrong, but only in details.

Barbs wont cross our border unless there are three cities per civ on average OR there is an improved tile adjacent to a neutral tile. Or did I remember wrong? :cry:

klarius
Apr 19, 2008, 10:45 AM
klarius, please advise if any of this requires a more sophisticated understanding of the code (such as the raze city probability)
The UnitAiWeight doesn't do much, so shouldn't drive any decision. At the time of real war, these will anyway all be the same units (grens, rifles) and the strategies don't differ much. Also the modifier only slightly modifies the mix of UnitAIs present as there are other factors which take precedence.

The attitudes for declaring are also no big deal. We need them at friendly with us in the end anyway so the attitude towards us has to be worked on anyway. Just the ones who need to be friendly first are no use.
And we should find targets for them they don't like to much as otherwise the bribing gets very expensive. Another point I just had with Cathy is that she gave me a -1 for declaring on her friend (which means pleased) Isa, though she happily joined in then (for a juicy bribe). :crazyeye:

There is another problem with Cathy. She asks for help (techs) all the time. If you give in for good relations you soon have nothing to bribe her. If you refuse she gives you a -2 (instead of the usual -1).

LowtherCastle
Apr 19, 2008, 10:51 AM
Once or twice he's wrong, but only in details.Not sure that comes across quite the way you meant it. ;) I think the mechanisms described in klarius korner are right, including all the details. As I recall, klarius goofed up once or twice with some detail, but then reviewed the code when he got home and corrected himself. Hopefully any clarifications are also in klarius korner.

One more thing to watch for is that some of what klarius describes is tailored to the difficulty level and may be different for deity. :eek: That's why I prefer to make a fool of myself and ask klarius again on points I'm not certain about. :blush:

klarius
Apr 19, 2008, 10:57 AM
I am wondering if we should throw in BW to let us chop a bit and, with luck, get us copper. In my first test game I was DoWed by Catherine just as I hooked up the copper.
No to BW. Definitely.
That slows us down far too much.
And no to chops w/o math. I always have health problems in the end (you shouldn't take all the health resources of your partner). So we have just a few forests which should be used wisely.
And BTW archers in a hill city are also very strong on defense (about as strong or even stronger than axes depending on what's coming up), while our land isn't suited very well for counter attacks.

Gnejs
Apr 19, 2008, 11:19 AM
No to BW. Definitely.
That slows us down far too much.
And no to chops w/o math. I always have health problems in the end (you shouldn't take all the health resources of your partner). So we have just a few forests which should be used wisely.
And BTW archers in a hill city are also very strong on defense (about as strong or even stronger than axes depending on what's coming up), while our land isn't suited very well for counter attacks.

Some early chops isn't a problem as the forests will eventually regrow. I also don't think we should concern ourselves with our health, as our PA partner will be gifting us more than enough health resources once they start capturing more land. I haven't had any health problems once the partner has assimilated 2-3 other AIs. And even if we have, what does it matter? The PA partner is the one doing 2/3rds of the research and 90% of the unit production. It doesn't matter if we lose out on working 2-3 additional tiles then...

Though I agree on the delay in researching BW being problematic. But we regain some of the time from being able to chop a library and prechop for the GL and NE.

LowtherCastle
Apr 19, 2008, 07:30 PM
A couple thoughts:

1. Do we need the stone quarry before Oxford (instead of a mine)? Unless we want to risk trading it to a potential ally, I guess, so he can build the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens.
2. As soon as we hook up the second clams, we should look to trade or gift it. It can get us up to Pleased with a future ally before Alpha. Otherwise someone's likely to extort it anyway.

FiveAces
Apr 19, 2008, 11:33 PM
erkon - I looked for the SGOTM6 thread and couldn't find it - only SGOTM5 shows up.

LC - I've not quarried the stone until the worker had nothing else to do. I agree we should trade the second clams if we can. But if they get demanded, we'll get an instant +1 for tribute, so that's not a terrible thing - we can cancel after 10 turns too, right?

klarius - I've always gone worker first so that I can build a camp asap. Then a workboat while working mined marble to get it out faster. Then working the clams+furs, work mined marble+stone for wb, then work both clams to grow to happy cap, work mines for library, turn mines to sci's. Then I build the second warrior. So that's why I'm a bit concerned about the barb issue, I guess. I'm not sure which build/improve order is optimal. My way seemed to fit and allowed me to nearly always work the furs, but maybe I was growing too slow by not building wb first.

Trading - Alpha turn - let's trade writing for mysticism and the wheel. Next turn(s) - if we're lucky let's trade for pottery, med, ph, BW without breaking alpha. Otherwise let's break alpha and get poly and IW too.

If you get to alpha fast enough, then enough civs won't have writing so you can trade it for the wheel/myst, then pottery/med, then trade writing and pottery for BW. Or, you trade for myst, then self-research med, then trade writing and med for BW and med for pottery. etc. It takes 2-3 turns, but you don't have to break alpha to get the techs you need.

One other thing to keep in mind about potential PA allies is that not all of them need to be friendly - IIRC cyrus, cathy, roos, bismark will all make PA's when pleased. And there are some - Napolean, monty? alex? that will never make a PA. Perhaps klarius can klarify the lists.

Erkon
Apr 20, 2008, 01:14 AM
erkon - I looked for the SGOTM6 thread and couldn't find it - only SGOTM5 shows up...

Sorry, SGOTM6 was Warlords, and as such in a separate mother thread. I've linked to that post from post#3 in this thread. Look at the very end, if you want to bypass our previous adventure :crazyeye:

jesusin
Apr 20, 2008, 01:14 AM
I forgot to say I want to settle in place. And I don't consider Worker first the best path.


I am not sure that we need to prioritize knowledge of sufficient domination size early on. I would rather not spend hammers on exploratory workboats, scouts, or wandering warriors. I think the general education beeline we have been discussing applies to all VC's. Paper is on this beeline, and any AI we trade with should have run those scouts around in the early turns so that we can see the whole continent the turn we get paper. In summary, I don't think we are going to do anything differently because we know the continent size during say research of CS instead of waiting until after paper.


What's the plan if the continent is not big enough?

In a cultural victory you want a GS and a ton of GA. In domination you want all GS. The second GreatPeople will be born long before paper.


So I am all for sending the first warrior far away, while building a second one.

jesusin
Apr 20, 2008, 01:20 AM
Getting an early religion can be helpful in gaining some powerful friends. In my test games I tried to get OB with every AI of a particular religious block (and only them), and then adopt that religion as soon as it spread.


On the contrary, I hope we will not found a religion in the whole game (Well, maybe Tao later on to secure Liberalism).

If there is 1 or 2 religious blocks in our continent, we want to get infected by it. Missionaries are not very likely, since we are in the North pole.

Gnejs
Apr 20, 2008, 01:27 AM
On the contrary, I hope we will not found a religion in the whole game (Well, maybe Tao later on to secure Liberalism).

If there is 1 or 2 religious blocks in our continent, we want to get infected by it. Missionaries are not very likely, since we are in the North pole.

Sorry if I was unclear, I also hope we never found any religions. I do hope we get religions spread to us because it will be one of the most powerful diplomatic tools. Pity we are not spiritual. In my test games the AIs seemed pretty eager to send missionaries to me.

jesusin
Apr 20, 2008, 01:32 AM
On trading:

On the first turn we should trade for prerequisites, giving away writing and other small techs, but we can also sell Alpha to a single AI (not Musa). They won't sell it. Then on the second turn we can trade Alpha to every AI.

FiveAces
Apr 20, 2008, 04:04 AM
On trading:

On the first turn we should trade for prerequisites, giving away writing and other small techs, but we can also sell Alpha to a single AI (not Musa). They won't sell it. Then on the second turn we can trade Alpha to every AI.

Generally agree - but we want to be careful who we give alpha to. While they won't trade it, they will trade their small techs for other small techs, which means they might trade writing to someone for say meditiation which means we can't do that on the next turn. Also if it turns out we traded alpha with the only AI willing to trade poly right then, then we delay poly for a bit which means we can't research lit immediately if that's what we decide to do. I'd rather not trade alpha until the second turn, just to make sure we don't trade ourselves out of a tech. That assumes a few AI's don't have writing. If nearly everybody has writing, then we need to trade alpha first turn.

I forgot to say I want to settle in place. And I don't consider Worker first the best path.

I think we should move the warrior 1SE EDIT: 1SW!!! :hammer2: before we commit to this, just in case he reveals something outstanding that we want to discuss. If he sees no resources I agree to settle in place.

Your path is war-wb-wor-wb, war-wb-wb-wor, war-wor-wb-wb or something else?

LowtherCastle
Apr 20, 2008, 08:19 AM
One other thing to keep in mind about potential PA allies is that not all of them need to be friendly - IIRC cyrus, cathy, roos, bismark will all make PA's when pleased. And there are some - Napolean, monty? alex? that will never make a PA. Perhaps klarius can klarify the lists.DP and PA are different, according to the XML. Napolean, Toku and Alex will not sign a PA, all the rest only at Friendly.

FiveAces
Apr 20, 2008, 08:47 AM
DP and PA are different, according to the XML. Napolean, Toku and Alex will not sign a PA, all the rest only at Friendly.

Sorry I got the DP/PA confused - I need to hit myself over the head again.

LowtherCastle
Apr 20, 2008, 12:28 PM
LC - I've not quarried the stone until the worker had nothing else to do. I agree we should trade the second clams if we can. But if they get demanded, we'll get an instant +1 for tribute, so that's not a terrible thing - we can cancel after 10 turns too, right?Yes, that +1 for tribute can be an excellent thing. With the 2nd nets in klarius' save, I noticed that when I gave the clams crabs (my goof earlier) to Alex in tribute, I couldn't give them to Hatty in time to get her up to Pleased in time for Alpha. Screwed me up a bit. So we need to be a bit clever and decide pretty early on, if possible, who we want to get up to Pleased for DoW purposes and how. EDIT: NOT. I just realized the BonusTradeDivisor is 50 turns. I was thinking it was much less. So OBs willl help sooner than trading or gifting the crabs.

We might want to pause for discussion at certain points in the play, regardless of when someone's turnset ends.

1. Immediately after settling
2. Immediately upon building the 2nd fishing nets
3. Upon completing Writing
4. Upon completing Alphabet
...

Erkon
Apr 20, 2008, 02:03 PM
Does anyone know if we get a penalty for trading with someones enemy if we give in to extortion?

Example:

Monty is Isa's worst enemy
Monty demands crabs and we give in to demand
Will we get a -1 penalty with Isa for trading with Monty?

Gnejs
Apr 20, 2008, 02:10 PM
I just had a go at Erkons map, doing the Alpha beeline. Cathy founded a city next to the Fur and we lost the culture battle soon after. Something to keep in mind, that tile is riskier to rely on. I got Alpha a little late, PA with Cathy very late (960 AD) and a much slower progress towards domination than in my other games.

I did set Cathy up for some common wars but at first she was very unsuccessful in these. When I enrolled some allies they grabbed the cities that Cathy had been wasting all her units against. Very frustrating... :mad:

FiveAces
Apr 20, 2008, 10:55 PM
Along the same lines, do we get a penalty for granting a request for "help" from a pleased or better AI?

Does anyone know if we get a penalty for trading with someones enemy if we give in to extortion?

Example:

Monty is Isa's worst enemy
Monty demands crabs and we give in to demand
Will we get a -1 penalty with Isa for trading with Monty?

And also, what are the mechanics of the worst enemy penalty? I know I've had games where I traded with a civ and didn't get the penalty from all civs that were pink towards the one I traded with. And sometimes when I do get the penalty it dissappears after a few turns, sometimes quickly.

I think we should set guidelines on mandatory stopping points during turnsets - for example say on you're second turn, math becomes available for trade with a civ that is a worst enemy of some other civs. Does the decision to trade for math require team discussion/consensus, or is it up to whoever's turnset it is? Other points could be you are now able to bribe someone into war, a civ now has enough on their hands, etc. Maybe a list of things you're not allowed to do without discussing it with the team first?

klarius Could you expand on your earlier comment about how the PA research works? If we're both researching at monarch, does that mean the beakers/tech is now a monarch number that our total science adds to? Will that be reflected in the game/civilopedia? I don't recall the tech values changing mid-game when I've made a PA, but I just might not have noticed that since I wasn't expecting it. It's a great bit of knowledge though - will definitely change the way I play solo PA games.

Finally, I'm guessing Gyanthaar wouldn't make those furs that easy to lose since their our only commerce resource and teams that might not know not to self-research too much early on are going to be seriously hurting if they lose the furs.

jesusin
Apr 21, 2008, 01:00 AM
I think we should decide before every turnset what would we do if someone asks anything. When a leader comes to talk, it must be answered before anything else, so it may not be practical to ask for advice here.


Regarding giving in to demands or gifts to an AI, the other AI that consider it its worst enemy will get angry if we give anything to them OR if if we receive anything from them. Only one of the 2 is true, but I can't remember which one...

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 01:16 AM
Trade with worst enemy:

The thing is working different than other negatives.
It doesn't matter how often you trade with worst enemies, it's the value relative to the turns you know the one giving you negatives.

Edit: I just see a misunderstanding in FiveAces post:
There is only a max of 1 worst enemy for a civ at any given time (it can change).
It's the one at annoyed or below with the lowest attitudeVal (the numeric value with all the hidden modifiers one cannot really know :().

You have an allowance of 10*HasMetCounter before you get 1 negative. Gifts (as e.g. giving in to demands :crazyeye:) count full, trades with 1/3 the value of your side of the trade.

Open borders have nearly no value (total number of cities of both partners), health or happiness resources count 100. It's techs which amount for a lot (1.5 - to nearly 2 times the beaker value depending on how many civs know the tech).

The mechanism for getting fair trade +points is similar. Notable there is that gifts count the same as excess trade value and the divider is 5*HasMetCounter.

PA research:
There is only one bucket for tech progress per team per tech. Both PA partners put their beakers into these buckets. That's independent of difficulty level.
If a PA is formed the beaker cost of the techs change (you can see this change in the tech screen). There is a penalty of a factor of 1.5 for 2 partners.
But the difficulty level factor changes to the value of the average of difficulties of the 2 partners :
floor((deity+noble)/2) = monarch.
So in the end we have 1.15*1.5 instead of 1.3 factor.

Mītiu Ioan
Apr 21, 2008, 01:19 AM
Yeehawww!!! This is going to be fun.

Mītiu, are you already back or are you still going on you vacation?


Yesterday was my wife's birtdhay and I passed with success ;) ... so I'm available from now on. :)

Just started to read&try to understand the proposals from here. :)

Regards all

LowtherCastle
Apr 21, 2008, 01:46 AM
The mechanism for getting fair trade +points is similar. Notable there is that gifts count the same as excess trade value and the divider is 5*HasMetCounter.That's interesting. That at least partly explains why the trade bonus can decrease through time. Does that mean there's no MemoryDecay, which I can't find for the trade bonus, or am I missing it?

Will this work simliarly with the common war bonus? Because I don't see a MemoryDecay for it either.

FiveAces
Apr 21, 2008, 01:56 AM
Ok - so am I right then in saying that if we know all the civs (let's assume we're only worried about our continent initially) for at least 10 turns, then we can gift/give a health/happy resource to anyone without getting a penalty from anyone? I'm ignoring the cumulative effect of OB and any tech trades for simplicity.

Likewise if alpha is ~300 beakers, than we can gift it to anyone without a penalty from anyone as long as we have known everyone for ~10 turns?

Also, am I correct that the AI will never demand a resource you only have one of, so we don't have to worry about giving our strategic marble/stone (which presumably count >100) unless we conciously decide to do that?

Finally on the PA - does the mechanics mean that if we decide we want to self-research econ for the GM, that it is better from a beaker perspective to delay the PA until we finish it, assuming that the eventual partner is researching something useful?

Note also that the trade bonus will wear off with time (similar to the penalty), so early gifting of say alpha to an AI that's already pleased is useful only if it immediately makes them friendly (no WFYABTA) and could result in a worst enemy penalty if they soonafter turn purple in the eyes of another AI, maybe due to a heathen religion penalty between the AI's.

Trade with worst enemy:

The thing is working different than other negatives.
It doesn't matter how often you trade with worst enemies, it's the value relative to the turns you know the one giving you negatives.

You have an allowance of 10*HasMetCounter before you get 1 negative. Gifts (as e.g. giving in to demands :crazyeye:) count full, trades with 1/3 the value of your side of the trade.

Open borders have nearly no value (total number of cities of both partners), health or happiness resources count 100. It's techs which amount for a lot (1.5 - to nearly 2 times the beaker value).

The mechanism for getting fair trade +points is similar. Notable there is that gifts count the same as excess trade value and the divider is 5*HasMetCounter.

PA research:
There is only one bucket for tech progress per team per tech. Both PA partners put their beakers into these buckets. That's independent of difficulty level.
If a PA is formed the beaker cost of the techs change (you can see this change in the tech screen). There is a penalty of a factor of 1.5 for 2 partners.
But the difficulty level factor changes to the value of the average of difficulties of the 2 partners floor((deity+noble)/2) = monarch.
So in the end we have 1.15*1.5 instead of 1.3 factor.

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 02:33 AM
That's interesting. That at least partly explains why the trade bonus can decrease through time. Does that mean there's no MemoryDecay, which I can't find for the trade bonus, or am I missing it?

Will this work simliarly with the common war bonus? Because I don't see a MemoryDecay for it either.
There is no memory decay at all. Neither for trade values (also not for worst enemy trade values), nor for the share war counter.
But the basic first attitude point you get only while you share a war. The 2-4 additional points possible (depending on leader) you keep even w/o a current war.
Only if you go to war with them the share war counter is reset to 0. And after PA the share war counters are averaged.

Edit:
BTW, that's different to other counters where you will not find a decay (shared religion, favorite civic, DP). These count down once the condition is not fulfilled.
Still you can salvage most of your old counters if you restore it quick (like switching religion for only 5 turns to temporary please someone).

Mītiu Ioan
Apr 21, 2008, 02:52 AM
Which is the best "test-game" for some practice ?

I didn't see yet the explicit answer to my question about Cultural Victory ... :(

Regards

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 03:05 AM
Also, am I correct that the AI will never demand a resource you only have one of, so we don't have to worry about giving our strategic marble/stone (which presumably count >100) unless we conciously decide to do that?

Yes. And strategic resources do count more, but it's a complicated calculation (depending on all buildings and units made possible or sped up, minus obsolete ones and modified by how many eras they are in the future).


Finally on the PA - does the mechanics mean that if we decide we want to self-research econ for the GM, that it is better from a beaker perspective to delay the PA until we finish it, assuming that the eventual partner is researching something useful?

Delaying PA is better if researching different techs, but how do you know before PA :crazyeye:?

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 03:10 AM
@Mītiu

Cultural victories are feasible. The worst thing about them is watching how your partner does every possible effort to avoid victory. Given the domination dates that have been achieved in the test games, I don't think a cultural victory will be faster.



Erkon, in the PA rules you might want to add that you can get a PA with 40 turns of DP too. And that 10 turns of common war and 30 turns of DP won't do, it is 40 turns of one or the other.

Not quite true. Shared war and DP count together.
But DP counter is decremented while you are at war.
So you can top of shared war by a DP, but not the other way around.

LowtherCastle
Apr 21, 2008, 03:13 AM
Which is the best "test-game" for some practice ?

I didn't see yet the explicit answer to my question about Cultural Victory ... :(

Regardsklarius' test game has received the most of our attention, so I would recommend it. Erkon's is also quite interesting and is getting more attention. ShannonCt's is also good if you have time. Each is a bit different.

The short answer is yes, Cultural victory is possible, using a permanent alliance. jesusin's post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6729746&postcount=5) gives a link to a HOF thread. jesusin also took one of the saves to a Cultural VC. That post is also in one of the spoilers Erkon collected on page 1.

oops--crossposted with klarius

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 03:33 AM
EDIT: NOT. I just realized the BonusTradeDivisor is 50 turns. I was thinking it was much less. So OBs willl help sooner than trading or gifting the crabs.

Resources can help. It's not just turns that count, but turns*number_of_resources. Swapping resources is already 2 resources involved. So it's better for the counter to receive a useless (e.g. health early) resource than gifting. But gifting would count towards the peaceTimeGrantCounter for fair trade.

FiveAces
Apr 21, 2008, 04:08 AM
Resources can help. It's not just turns that count, but turns*number_of_resources. Swapping resources is already 2 resources involved. So it's better for the counter to receive a useless (e.g. health early) resource than gifting. But gifting would count towards the peaceTimeGrantCounter for fair trade.

That counter maxes at 4 though, right? So since we can get +4 instantly by gifting tech, we should swap rather than gift, since then we can then also eventually get +1 for sharing resources (I'm assuming we don't get this if we gift, since you said "would count" instead of "would also count" please correct me if I'm interpreting this wrong.

EDIT: while we're on this subject, what determines if you get a +1 for sharing knowledge when you agree to an AI proposed trade?

***

They key thing against cultural IMO is that while it is certainly possible, I think space can be achieved faster. Thus IMO space should be our fallback VC if we can't get dom for some reason. It also means we don't have to worry about popping GA's for culture.

***

Delaying PA is better if researching different techs, but how do you know before PA ? :crazyeye:

You can't know for sure, but if one of the techs they can research has a very high AI research priority, like say replaceable parts, it's a good bet they're working on that one. Depends on the AI though - Mansa would probably go for econ asap since it enables his favorite civic.

***

That's a great klarification on what counts towards the 40 turns - it means if we end up a few turns short before comm and for some reason our prime target won't agree to be bribed into another, we can top it off with a DP (though we or they will need MilTrad for that) if we don't want to use a different AI for the PA.

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 05:12 AM
We get the counter for 1 resource if we gift. But with the divisor 50 this means 50 turns until we see a result.
I'm here mainly concerned about the early phase. We will not have many techs to gift (we cannot gift alphabet to everybody, just for relations), so the value of the resource could get us a point more together with some minor tech gifts. It's a trade off, but for sure the swap, if possible, would be better in the long run.

You shared knowledge is related to MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US in the MemoryAttitudePercents category. That ranges from 5 to 20 for the different leaders meaning 20 to 5 techs (they remember) given or traded to them per point. Value (or monopoly what some people think) doesn't play a role, just number of techs.
There is a memory decay of 1/100 per turn associated with this memory value.

LowtherCastle
Apr 21, 2008, 05:38 AM
In the games I've been playing, swapping resources wasn't an option at first. Since, we can re-do the gift after 10 turns, clearly it'd be beneficial to upgrade to a swap, when possible.

Erkon
Apr 21, 2008, 09:46 AM
Roster (proposal)

Gnejs - 15 turns
LC - 12 turns
FiveAces - 10 turns
jesusin - 10 turns
klarius - 10 turns
Mitiu - 10 turns
Erkon - 100 turns

We will use mid-turnset uploads during intense turn sets. In addition/complement to that, a player shall break after move of starting warrior, initial city settlement, writing discovered, alpha discovered, or something really exciting/unexpected happens, such as anyone declares on us. I don't want us to be too strict and pause for minor stuff, because that will have a negative impact on the flow of play for the player. It is important that everyone in the team feels they have the mandate to take decisions when we encounter opportunities without having to ask for advice. One example would be tech trade with AIs that we have agreed on to trade with.

Once we know more about our neighbor and we're close to Writing, we'll discuss whom we shall trade with and open borders with etc.

Unless anyone oppose my roster proposal, Gnejs, please prepare a PPP i.e. suggest where to move the warrior :lol:. Please include ideas on how your PPP fits into the overall strategy (as we know it). I suggest that you download, move, and post screen shot. If no-one suggests otherwise within an hour, you can settle and upload.

morpheus11
Apr 21, 2008, 09:50 AM
But the difficulty level factor changes to the value of the average of difficulties of the 2 partners :
floor((deity+noble)/2) = monarch.
So in the end we have 1.15*1.5 instead of 1.3 factor.

I have very basic question about this. In this game are there multiple difficulties, or is it standard for the human player to be considered "noble" in this calculation?

And if the game is set up with only the AI at deity difficulty does that mean that you get the bonuses that are awarded to "noble"?

Gnejs
Apr 21, 2008, 10:16 AM
klarius' test game has received the most of our attention, so I would recommend it. Erkon's is also quite interesting and is getting more attention. ShannonCt's is also good if you have time. Each is a bit different.


Hey, what about my test game? :gripe:

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 10:26 AM
I have very basic question about this. In this game are there multiple difficulties, or is it standard for the human player to be considered "noble" in this calculation?

And if the game is set up with only the AI at deity difficulty does that mean that you get the bonuses that are awarded to "noble"?
Tech cost is a penalty for the human player on difficulty level above noble (1.3 times standard at deity).
AI always has the standard noble tech cost.

LowtherCastle
Apr 21, 2008, 10:45 AM
Hey, what about my test game? :gripe:I know it's tough to be ignored and forgotten. Just consider it a motivation to make intelligent posts like Captain Erkon. :p (I didn't mention my save either.)

I got a 780ad PA with Cathy using Erkon's save. I followed klarius' research path, inlcuding Drama, but built neither the Globe nor NE, because everyone was researching Monarchy and I wanted a pure gene pool. Probably could have skipped Drama. Made 4 GSes which I used for Academy, Education, PP, and SciMeth. Had no problem getting the HE built. I chopped only 1 forest in the FC on the grass river where I built the only cottage, so I have +5:health: and plenty of forest to build lumbermills.

The funny thing is, the faster you go, the more likely you are to have to slow down to build CoL or Philosophy.

Erkon
Apr 21, 2008, 10:53 AM
I have very basic question about this. In this game are there multiple difficulties, or is it standard for the human player to be considered "noble" in this calculation?

And if the game is set up with only the AI at deity difficulty does that mean that you get the bonuses that are awarded to "noble"?

The player in this game (i.e. us) play at Deity difficulty level while the AI plays at Noble.

It's not very common that the AI difficulty is changed in (S)GOTMs. Running against AI that play Deity is not very challenging, but once there was a "challenger setting" in a GOTM where the AI played Settler level and crushed even the most skilled players. :cry:

Gnejs
Apr 21, 2008, 10:56 AM
I just had a go at Erkons map, doing the Alpha beeline. Cathy founded a city next to the Fur and we lost the culture battle soon after. Something to keep in mind, that tile is riskier to rely on. I got Alpha a little late, PA with Cathy very late (960 AD) and a much slower progress towards domination than in my other games.

I did set Cathy up for some common wars but at first she was very unsuccessful in these. When I enrolled some allies they grabbed the cities that Cathy had been wasting all her units against. Very frustrating... :mad:

I got a 780ad PA with Cathy using Erkon's save. I followed klarius' research path, inlcuding Drama, but built neither the Globe nor NE, because everyone was researching Monarchy and I wanted a pure gene pool. Probably could have skipped Drama. Made 4 GSes which I used for Academy, Education, PP, and SciMeth. Had no problem getting the HE built. I chopped only 1 forest in the FC on the grass river where I built the only cottage, so I have +5:health: and plenty of forest to build lumbermills.

The funny thing is, the faster you go, the more likely you are to have to slow down to build CoL or Philosophy.

Ok, you beat me by 10 turns. How powerful was Cathy when you got the PA? How many cities? I think she had only four in my game, which was at least 2 cities too few.

Btw, I tried to use the same tech path, but this resulted in my worker being idle for 10 turns or so before the discovery of Alphabet. I must have the timing wrong, it seems.

Erkon
Apr 21, 2008, 02:24 PM
Pre-Play-Plan template

The turn-set player writes them, and the rest of us comment. The template allows for varying amount of ambition, so you are free to personalize it to your hearts content. :goodjob:

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW
Present the most important goals and actions during the turnset. Also include intent.
Example: Complete Globe Theatre, Declare on GandhiBUILD QUEUE
List planned builds for each city
Example: Murkopolis completes Library, then builds axesUNIT MOVES
List general movement for units in each region of map and specific movement for key units.
Example: move one spear to hill next to Cyrus horse & copperWORKER ACTIONS
List worker actions for each city region.
Example: Murkopolis worker completes chop, road fur.CITY MM
State any changes in city management such as switching from food focus to production focus etc. Only important MM is needed here, such as whipping and key MM for specific goals.
Marble City whip Granary on ~T4DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
State any planned diplomatic actions and present your ideas on response to claims by AI
Trade Civil Service to Alex for Machinery, refuse demands from NapoleonSEQUENCE
State the sequence of actions and activities
Trade Drama from Liz, then switch to Conf and trade Construction from Napoleon.STOP CRITERIA
State all events that will trigger a mid turn update
HC units visible from our borders
OTHERS
Research
Civic change
Religion change
Cities settled

Erkon
Apr 21, 2008, 03:09 PM
Hi team,

I've updated post 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6729731&postcount=2) with the welcome message and house rules. Please comment. I have a feeling that it's a bit heavy, but my main intention was to remove uncertainties, not appear as a clown (I expect a witty comment on this...). Happy reading :)

LowtherCastle
Apr 21, 2008, 03:28 PM
Ok, you beat me by 10 turns. How powerful was Cathy when you got the PA? How many cities? I think she had only four in my game, which was at least 2 cities too few.

Btw, I tried to use the same tech path, but this resulted in my worker being idle for 10 turns or so before the discovery of Alphabet. I must have the timing wrong, it seems.Same. 4 cities. No great shakes, but she's still on top of the score graph and has the most cities. I actually didn't even try to help her in capturing Washington's cities. My only focus was getting my level 4 unit, having the common wars and beeliing Communism. I had about 10 turns where focus on building axes and beat off Washington. Could have easily focused on capturing his two cities. He had lost his copper and was down to 3 defenders. Clearly, though, Kubla would be better for warring. I think Cathy will take some time to capture the continent, but each AI is so small that it will just be dominoes. All the teams will be in the same boat.

I didn't hurry the worker. Built a warrior and one wb, grew to pop2, built the worker while working both crab tiles for extra commerce. I may have had a few idle turns too. So it goes. We're still guessing with this anyway, not knowing the full FC. To me, what I wanted to see with Erkon's map was whether we could get the PA reasonably close to klarius' 450ad date. I think we can reliably say that it's achievable.

My only remaining questions are on the trade-offss of Drama (trading, Globe, alloyed gene pool), how many forests to keep in the FC (balance between fast PA and endgame production).

morpheus11
Apr 21, 2008, 08:00 PM
Erkon, your rules look good. I will try not to get in the way too much. :goodjob:

I did notice that you should update your rules for PAs with this little bit from klarius. :D

Shared war and DP count together.
But DP counter is decremented while you are at war.
So you can top of shared war by a DP, but not the other way around.

klarius
Apr 21, 2008, 10:16 PM
Hi team,

I've updated post 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6729731&postcount=2) with the welcome message and house rules. Please comment. I have a feeling that it's a bit heavy, but my main intention was to remove uncertainties, not appear as a clown (I expect a witty comment on this...). Happy reading :)

There is a paragraph about official lurker, a concept that doesn't exist anymore. :)

I still think first turn = 0 is better to be in line with the progress graph counting.

As diplomacy is pretty important in this game, I would like people reporting when the attitude changes between AIs and at what value this happens. At least switch on autolog with all reporting options and include it in your post.
We might be able to deduce the hidden random value in the attitude value.

FiveAces
Apr 21, 2008, 10:49 PM
I'm ok with the proposed roster but want to make a couple of points so everyone is aware of my playing "restrictions". If these are too cumbersome, happy to discuss workarounds, including reduced turnsets.

1) Need to finish an old HoF game before updating .dll (no BTS), should be able to do this by 1st turnset or will swap/skip/abandon the HoF game
2) This is the key one - I don't have internet at home :cry: which is only place I can play. So I can only download/upload/post/read posts from Sun-Thurs and sometimes Sat, 0400-1300ish GMT

Also as this is my 1st SGOTM, I want to be completely sure I understand the technical rules so's that I don't screw anything up for the rest of y'all, namely:

1) Since no BTS I need to update my .dll following the instructions in the maintenance thread before I can open the save
2) I need to use firstturn = 0
3) I need to set the autosave to save every turn
4) I need to save the turnlogs (do I have to do anything special for this?)
5) I can open the save and make as many reversible moves (info screens, moving citizens, changing builds/research etc. as often as I want, but once I make an irreversible move, it counts and I have to save afterwards and upload that file when I upload.

Anything else I'm missing?

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 01:36 AM
Same. 4 cities. No great shakes, but she's still on top of the score graph and has the most cities. I actually didn't even try to help her in capturing Washington's cities. My only focus was getting my level 4 unit, having the common wars and beeliing Communism. I had about 10 turns where focus on building axes and beat off Washington. Could have easily focused on capturing his two cities. He had lost his copper and was down to 3 defenders. Clearly, though, Kubla would be better for warring. I think Cathy will take some time to capture the continent, but each AI is so small that it will just be dominoes. All the teams will be in the same boat.

I didn't hurry the worker. Built a warrior and one wb, grew to pop2, built the worker while working both crab tiles for extra commerce. I may have had a few idle turns too. So it goes. We're still guessing with this anyway, not knowing the full FC. To me, what I wanted to see with Erkon's map was whether we could get the PA reasonably close to klarius' 450ad date. I think we can reliably say that it's achievable.

My only remaining questions are on the trade-offss of Drama (trading, Globe, alloyed gene pool), how many forests to keep in the FC (balance between fast PA and endgame production).

I spot five fogged tiles in the BFC which are all forested. That means fur or deer are the only possible resources, right? Another fur wouldn't change much but with a deer we should be looking at Hunting+worker first.

Anyway, I see no reason not to settle in place. Nothing the warrior could possible reveal would make me interested in moving away from the coast, and there won't be any new information that would suggest moving along the coast (except maybe if the warrior goes NE but that seems highly unlikely with the ice up there).


If we are able to adopt a religion and trade for a happy resource (or ask a friendly AI to give us one, works quite often!) then Drama/GT is not very urgent and can be delayed until at least after Civil Service.



What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 01:41 AM
I still think first turn = 0 is better to be in line with the progress graph counting.

As diplomacy is pretty important in this game, I would like people reporting when the attitude changes between AIs and at what value this happens. At least switch on autolog with all reporting options and include it in your post.
We might be able to deduce the hidden random value in the attitude value.I agree.

I would add: Make a note of the turn we and another AI start having a common war and note the turn that the AI declares peace, so we can know when we've gotten to 40 turns of common war.

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 01:51 AM
What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

Hm, let me elaborate on those forests. Each forest gives +0.4 health, 12*0.4= +4.8 health. I assume that the health benefit is rounded down, so we can chop:
0-2 forests at no health cost
3-4 forests for -1 health
5-7 forests for -2 health
8-9 forests for -3 health
10-12 forests for -4 health

I retract my previous statement. We should chop up to seven forests ASAP, and save the rest until we get some further health resources from our ally.

klarius
Apr 22, 2008, 02:21 AM
What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?
What a tree hater you are. :)
We don't need the steenkin' hammers from the forest chops except maybe 2 for GLib. More early is just wasting them and worker turns. Don't tell me they will regrow. That's not sure at all.
I want still some chops later for university/Oxford.
We can even use some on military late (to build workshops after chemistry).

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 02:52 AM
What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?
Okay, Mr. Woodchuck (aka Builder), what's your logic? :) I'm sitting here running tests so Mr. Gnejs (aka Warmonger) can have lumbermills, pop13+ and produce 1 unit/turn 50 turns before building hospitals and you evidently would rather have nice green lawns with playgrounds for your kiddies to play on, or what? :cool:

We don't know yet whether we have river tiles to the south, but I take it you want to put those ASAP chops into GLib, granary and lighthouse? I don't see any point in chopping the hills because we'll probably never need hill mines. The plains tiles are useless for cottages because our city (as we now see it) is food scarce. That leaves the grass tiles. I suppose your logic might be that by chopping those structures, our citizens can work cottages instead of working hammer tiles. This also grows our pop faster. This might dovetail nicely with HeredRule (or Globe). That would get us to liberalism somewhat faster.

I guess I can see your cottage-cheese logic for about 4 chops. I try that out, if I can find the time.

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 03:01 AM
Can anyone explain why I have +5:health: for forests when I have only 11 forests (11*.4=4.4) in my FC?

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 03:26 AM
I spot five fogged tiles in the BFC which are all forested. That means fur or deer are the only possible resources, right? Another fur wouldn't change much but with a deer we should be looking at Hunting+worker first.

Anyway, I see no reason not to settle in place. Nothing the warrior could possible reveal would make me interested in moving away from the coast, and there won't be any new information that would suggest moving along the coast (except maybe if the warrior goes NE but that seems highly unlikely with the ice up there).


If we are able to adopt a religion and trade for a happy resource (or ask a friendly AI to give us one, works quite often!) then Drama/GT is not very urgent and can be delayed until at least after Civil Service.



What a bunch of tree-huggers you all are! We have 12 forests in the BFC, surely we can chop at least 8 of them ASAP?

1) Yes, IIRC that would be a base 4 tile, so we would get the worker out quickly and then grow/improve/work the furs too and build wb's faster.

2) There appear to be grassland tiles in the fog to the S (might be my monitor, though). If the warrior reveals say corn and gems, we should discuss settling on the stone or marble. We will get +1h on the city square, research alpha much faster and not need to build wb's for growth. But we lose the coast. I'd be really surprised if an OCC game is set up without giving an obvious choice about where to settle, and based on what we see now, settling in place is the only reasonable play.

3) Agree - after alpha I'm inclined to either go Lit for GL (esp if we can trade for poly), or trade+research towards CoL/CS.

4) I'm not yet sure how many I would want to save long-term, but I think if I were chopping before maths I'd only chop into something we get a bonus on, like GL. And afterwards I'd still try to save most of them for uni/Oxford. But if we get a deer that helps the health problem so we could chop more aggressively. We can't chop a settler, and our growth builds (wb's, granary, aqueduct) will be limited by need for monarchy/GT, so IMO that reduces the value of early chopping considerably. In fact other than GL I'm not sure we'll have a need for early chopping unless we need to rush axes for defence :eek:

EDIT: crosspost with klarius (long lunch :) ) we're on the same page.

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 03:27 AM
Okay, Mr. Woodchuck (aka Builder), what's your logic? :) I'm sitting here running tests so Mr. Gnejs (aka Warmonger) can have lumbermills, pop13+ and produce 1 unit/turn 50 turns before building hospitals and you evidently would rather have nice green lawns with playgrounds for your kiddies to play on, or what? :cool:

We don't know yet whether we have river tiles to the south, but I take it you want to put those ASAP chops into GLib, granary and lighthouse? I don't see any point in chopping the hills because we'll probably never need hill mines. The plains tiles are useless for cottages because our city (as we now see it) is food scarce. That leaves the grass tiles. I suppose your logic might be that by chopping those structures, our citizens can work cottages instead of working hammer tiles. This also grows our pop faster. This might dovetail nicely with HeredRule (or Globe). That would get us to liberalism somewhat faster.

I guess I can see your cottage-cheese logic for about 4 chops. I try that out, if I can find the time.


Cottages of course, to be complemented with workshops when we need additional production. Workshops > Lumbermills, especially with a very early beeline to Communism (State Property).

The hills should be mined for sure to allow us quick production boosts, 19 raw hammers/turn at size 6 with a lighthouse. Perfect for completing that GL/GT a couple of turns sooner.

Here is my list of essential buildings:
Library
Granary
Lighthouse
Harbor
Barracks
Great Library
Heroic Epic
University
Oxford
Monasteries

Don't tell me you want to build them all the slow way while not even working the hills.


Btw, what plains tiles? I see no cottageable plains tiles except the Fur.

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 03:34 AM
Hm, let me elaborate on those forests. Each forest gives +0.4 health, 12*0.4= +4.8 health. I assume that the health benefit is rounded down, so we can chop:
0-2 forests at no health cost
3-4 forests for -1 health
5-7 forests for -2 health
8-9 forests for -3 health
10-12 forests for -4 health

I retract my previous statement. We should chop up to seven forests ASAP, and save the rest until we get some further health resources from our ally.

Can anyone explain why I have +5 for forests when I have only 11 forests (11*.4=4.4) in my FC?

Because +.4 for forests is wrong :D. It's +.5. You guys are getting them confused with floodplains which are -.4 :rolleyes:

klarius
Apr 22, 2008, 03:56 AM
Here is my list of essential buildings:
Library
Granary
Lighthouse
Harbor
Barracks
Great Library
Heroic Epic
University
Oxford
Monasteries

Don't tell me you want to build them all the slow way while not even working the hills.


Well all besides the HE (but globe and NE) is there in my 450AD save w/o using the hills (ok, one strong resource on the plains, but we still hope for that ;)). Plains hills are really pretty bad tiles, if you don't have a lot food. You can pop-rush for a similar food to hammer ratio if needed.

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 03:59 AM
Cottages of course, to be complemented with workshops when we need additional production. Workshops > Lumbermills, especially with a very early beeline to Communism (State Property).

The hills should be mined for sure to allow us quick production boosts, 19 raw hammers/turn at size 6 with a lighthouse. Perfect for completing that GL/GT a couple of turns sooner.

I don't think quick maximum production is needed - I'll explain why below the building lists.

Here is my list of essential buildings:
Library
Granary
Lighthouse
Harbor
Barracks
Great Library
Heroic Epic
University
Oxford
Monasteries

Don't tell me you want to build them all the slow way while not even working the hills.

Agree with the list, though I would add an observatory. And if you're chopping all our forests early, you really should have an aqueduct on there too :cool:

This is my high level thoughts of why you don't chop everything out asap: Until you finish CS, you can only build lib-gran-lh-barracks-gl-monasteries because you won't have the other necessary techs. Our ONLY worker will need to improve AND road the furs, marble, and stone (maybe a deer) AND chop and cottage the river grassland BEFORE he can think about chopping anything else. That's gonna take him up to CS (or thereabouts) and then he's going to want to pre-chop so that we can lightning finish uni/oxford because it's going to be buildable pretty soon.

So my strawman worker/build plan is deer (if exists), furs (road), stone (mine+road), marble (mine+road, if no alpha yet, otherwise quarry), chop/cottage river grassland, marble (quarry), chop cottage 1-2 grasslands, stone (quarry), pre-chop for uni/oxford.

Build plan is worker-warrior-wb-wb (not necessarily in that order)-lib (finish with chops from river grassland)-gran-gl (with 1-2 chops for cottages)-lh- warriors for :)-uni/oxford (chopped)

Btw, what plains tiles? I see no cottageable plains tiles except the Fur.

I think he means the one on the N which might or might not have a resource.

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 04:35 AM
I don't think quick maximum production is needed - I'll explain why below the building lists.

Agree with the list, though I would add an observatory. And if you're chopping all our forests early, you really should have an aqueduct on there too :cool:

This is my high level thoughts of why you don't chop everything out asap: Until you finish CS, you can only build lib-gran-lh-barracks-gl-monasteries because you won't have the other necessary techs. Our ONLY worker will need to improve AND road the furs, marble, and stone (maybe a deer) AND chop and cottage the river grassland BEFORE he can think about chopping anything else. That's gonna take him up to CS (or thereabouts) and then he's going to want to pre-chop so that we can lightning finish uni/oxford because it's going to be buildable pretty soon.


Forgot about the Aqueduct, of course it is on the list as well, as is the observatory.

But you are all forgetting one benefit of chopping the buildings early: being able to build research.

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 04:45 AM
Forgot about the Aqueduct, of course it is on the list as well, as is the observatory.

But you are all forgetting one benefit of chopping the buildings early: being able to build research.

That is true - but that built research pales in comparison to the research boost from building Oxford many turns earlier if you save the forests for it.

We ain't gonna have any forest outside our borders to chop later. Depending on where the AI builds their cities, we might only have the forest in the BFC, and maybe not all of that. Early chop the river grassland, maybe 1-2 more grasslands for GL, and any tile we're going to lose the culture battle on, but I strongly recommend saving the rest for Oxford.

EDIT: On another matter, we need to figure out how big we're going to grow to determine whether it's better to build GT or warriors for :)

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 04:47 AM
Gnejs, how many workers are you building?

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 05:03 AM
That is true - but that built research pales in comparison to the research boost from building Oxford many turns earlier if you save the forests for it.

We ain't gonna have any forest outside our borders to chop later. Depending on where the AI builds their cities, we might only have the forest in the BFC, and maybe not all of that. Early chop the river grassland, maybe 1-2 more grasslands for GL, and any tile we're going to lose the culture battle on, but I strongly recommend saving the rest for Oxford.

EDIT: On another matter, we need to figure out how big we're going to grow to determine whether it's better to build GT or warriors for :)

It doesn't matter if the AIs build their cities close if they are not creative.

Good idea on the HR warriors. How many can we have before they start to cost upkeep?

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 05:04 AM
Gnejs, how many workers are you building?

One. But now that you mention it, maybe we should have two workers?

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 05:15 AM
It doesn't matter if the AIs build their cities close if they are not creative.

It does because they build obelisk/library/monasteries/temples in them QUICKLY which outperform our palace/library for a long time. GL will help with this, but other than on quick speed, culture pressure is a problem in OCC.

Good idea on the HR warriors. How many can we have before they start to cost upkeep?

It's related to your total pop. klarius should be able to advise the exact mechanics. Upkeep for :) units is not usually a problem after currency since you get lots of gold from trade and each unit over the cap is only -1 cost (-2 if in pacifism).

One. But now that you mention it, maybe we should have two workers?

On OCC I build either 1 or 2, depending on if I have built everything I need at the time I hit the pre-HR happy cap i.e. when I temporarily can't grow any more. But since we're building GL (probably) and a lighthouse, we probably won't have time for a 2nd until after Oxford, unless we slot one in after we're working all the non-forest tiles. Assuming we haven't chopped everything by then :mischief:

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 05:32 AM
I think we need to pause after meeting our neighbors.

1) If we're surrounded by warmongers we might need to consider building a stronger military at first

2) If there are no HR-lovers around, we might need to consider pyramids for Rep so we can get somebody friendly early. I hope this is not the case. I really don't want to have to build the pyramids.

EDIT: Scratch the second point. We don't get the civics bonus unless we're both in the civic, and only 1 civ can run Rep before Constitution. I still think we need to pause after meeting some number of neighbors - but maybe writing is a good time? We're stopping there anyway. What do you guys think?

klarius
Apr 22, 2008, 05:44 AM
1) If we're surrounded by warmongers we might need to consider building a stronger military at first

Very unlikely that Gyathaar sets it up like this. Some teams would die before even getting an archer up - maybe us.

2) If there are no HR-lovers around, we might need to consider pyramids for Rep so we can get somebody friendly early. I hope this is not the case. I really don't want to have to build the pyramids.
Shared war and gifts is enough.
No need for civics bonus, so that shouldn't drive us anywhere.
And BTW it doesn't help if you alone are in Rep. The other also has to be there, so needs to research it. That's much to late.

FiveAces
Apr 22, 2008, 05:48 AM
Ok, let's not stop earlier than we planned then. I forgot about the shared war bonus - I guess my peacemonger mentality is showing :lol:

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 05:56 AM
We're also stopping at T15, T27 and maybe once in the middle of those turnsets. I think it'll be pretty clear in Gnejs' turnset if we're going to meet a lot before OBs, like in klarius' set-up, or just a few, like in Erkon's.

At pop5, we can produce 15h/t, so each chop, with Math, saves us two turns of production and costs us 4 worker turns. That's it. The rest of this chopping discussion depends on what our warrior sees in 2 days, I think. Will we have more food? More Commerce? River tiles? Dreck?

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 11:03 AM
On the chopping, I guess my point is that we shouldn't be concerned with saving forests for either health or production purposes. How much we chop should only be determined with how many cottages and, later on, workshops, we want to have.

Erkon
Apr 22, 2008, 11:25 AM
I support Gnejs-the-builder that we should not save the steenkin trees for end-game optimizations.

Since no-one has yet produced a strategy overview, I will do my best to summarize my impression from various posts.

Erkons first attempt to overall strategy

Early builds: Warrior - barracks (1 turn) - wb (timed to growth to 2 switching between furs and reg forest) - worker (fur camp first) - wb - library.

Early exploration: send warrior as far as possible and meet all AI, and reveal all tiles asap.

Early tech: Hunting, Fishing, AH, Writing, Alphabet (T44)

Caveat: no plan survives contact with the enemy....

AI Relations: Maintain good relations with as many AI as possible to enable tech trade and bribing.

Others: Grog must not die. Run scientists for early Academy.

The following milestones are used as optimization goals:


Alphabet
Establish good relations with candidate allies by trade and mutual wars.
Help chosen AI to expand territory and to become a strong ally.
Communism
PA with chosen AI
Domination

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 12:05 PM
Early tech: + Hunting

AI Relations: + Monitor relations every turn and maintain good attitudes according to our chosen partner(s) preferences (may take precedence to 'as many AIs as possible'). Before hitting <enter> each turn, make a (mental) note of bribes/extortions we do and don't want to give in to. >>> This may be something we're least accustomed to doing, but most important in this game. <<<

Milestones: + Accumulating mutual war turns. (in other words, not just for good relations)

Population: Very beneficial if we can get up to pop5.

Erkon
Apr 22, 2008, 01:01 PM
...I think we should set guidelines on mandatory stopping points during turnsets - for example say on you're second turn, math becomes available for trade with a civ that is a worst enemy of some other civs. Does the decision to trade for math require team discussion/consensus, or is it up to whoever's turnset it is? Other points could be you are now able to bribe someone into war, a civ now has enough on their hands, etc. Maybe a list of things you're not allowed to do without discussing it with the team first?...

As soon as we know our neighbors and are close to learning Alpha, we will plan for whom to trade with. At that point we will discuss if we need further guidelines. At the moment I don't see any point not to open borders with everyone, but we can sort that out before we get Writing.

We will eventually decide to DoW on one of several AI's. We'll list the AI's that we will DoW, and then the player shall try to DoW one of them as he sees fit. Again, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. If a player needs advice, he will pause and upload.

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 01:17 PM
Ok, lets skip the long-term plans and focus on the immediate future for a moment. Here is...

<drumroll>

Gnejs big first turnset Pre-Play Plan, Part I

Actions:
Move warrior SW.
Rationale: the one single important decision we have right now is where to settle. Given that this is normal speed, and that there are about 5-10 surplus AI settlers looking for a spot to settle, the only possible choices I see are either in place or on either stone or marble. There is a small, very small probability that there are several resources (like 2xfood+gold) to the south, and that this could perhaps motivate moving away from both coast and fresh water. I seriously doubt it, but warrior SW would tell.

Erkon
Apr 22, 2008, 01:26 PM
There is a paragraph about official lurker, a concept that doesn't exist anymore. :)

I still think first turn = 0 is better to be in line with the progress graph counting.

As diplomacy is pretty important in this game, I would like people reporting when the attitude changes between AIs and at what value this happens. At least switch on autolog with all reporting options and include it in your post.
We might be able to deduce the hidden random value in the attitude value.

I've added the Official Lurker paragraph since the concept is no longer supported by the administrators. It's our own house rule to enable lurkers in our thread.

I've changed the first turn to 0.

Since we will encounter typically 9 AI's, it will be very tricky to keep track of the relations manually. I fully support the idea to switch on the autolog function. But how are we going to track the inter-AI relations? Shall the player make a screen shot every turn on the F4-info-tab? We need a smooth system for this. I would also like to take this opportunity to nominate klarius' statement "As diplomacy is pretty important in this game" as the understatement of the year :lol: The team who manages the relations best will win the gold.

I'm ok with the proposed roster but want to make a couple of points so everyone is aware of my playing "restrictions". If these are too cumbersome, happy to discuss workarounds, including reduced turnsets.

1) Need to finish an old HoF game before updating .dll (no BTS), should be able to do this by 1st turnset or will swap/skip/abandon the HoF game
2) This is the key one - I don't have internet at home :cry: which is only place I can play. So I can only download/upload/post/read posts from Sun-Thurs and sometimes Sat, 0400-1300ish GMT

Also as this is my 1st SGOTM, I want to be completely sure I understand the technical rules so's that I don't screw anything up for the rest of y'all, namely:

1) Since no BTS I need to update my .dll following the instructions in the maintenance thread before I can open the save
2) I need to use firstturn = 0
3) I need to set the autosave to save every turn
4) I need to save the turnlogs (do I have to do anything special for this?)
5) I can open the save and make as many reversible moves (info screens, moving citizens, changing builds/research etc. as often as I want, but once I make an irreversible move, it counts and I have to save afterwards and upload that file when I upload.

Anything else I'm missing?

We are aware of your restrictions and we will adjust to them. We will have patience with you during your turn set.

4) Ensure you name the autolog.txt to something unique in the HOF-tab, and enable all logging (valid for everyone).
5) If it is your turn set, you have to continue from the modified save when you play (no need to upload). If it is not your turn set, and the move is minor (i.e. is irrelevant after a few turns), you announce your mistake and enter silent mode until the turn set is complete (i.e. disengage from discussions). You also notify Alan and describes what happened.

Gnejs
Apr 22, 2008, 01:46 PM
Since we will encounter typically 9 AI's, it will be very tricky to keep track of the relations manually. I fully support the idea to switch on the autolog function. But how are we going to track the inter-AI relations? Shall the player make a screen shot every turn on the F4-info-tab? We need a smooth system for this.

I think that the autolog also handles this. Let me check. Yes:

Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Mao Zedong(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Ok, we get the attitudes, but not the exact numerical values as in the foreign advisor screen. Screenies or manual notes may be required.

Erkon
Apr 22, 2008, 02:18 PM
Will Hunting first give us Alpha earlier? :eek:

Early tech: + Hunting

klarius
Apr 22, 2008, 02:35 PM
Will Hunting first give us Alpha earlier? :eek:
It will be on the same turn IME, but rather with a few beakers more overflow. We will work the furs for quite some time and the 4 additional commerce for the camp do add up to quite a bit. We also get about 20 beakers for the prerequisite bonus to AH. Hunting is only 57 beakers.

That AH direct did come out on the same turn in my tests and not later, was only due to the fact that I delayed the worker to after the 2nd wb then. A lot less hammers produced.

LowtherCastle
Apr 22, 2008, 02:59 PM
Will Hunting first give us Alpha earlier? :eek:It also means we have the choice of getting the +:) a few turns sooner once we get The Wheel. Roading the furs, the marble and quarry before we have researched Literature will be tight, but pop5 is much better for producing the GLib.

klarius
Apr 22, 2008, 04:36 PM
Ok, I tried a few variations.
In fact hunting-AH gives alphabet fastest :).
Warrior - barracks (1 turn) - wb (timed to growth to 2 switching between furs and reg forest) - worker (fur camp first) - wb - library.
Note I never worked any mined resource (though the worker mined them). By that library didn't complete before alphabet. But that gave alphabet fastest.
Alphabet on turn 44.
Same result with my map pasturing horses before camping furs (but switching to furs when the camp is ready).

Worker first or AH w/o hunting is slower to alphabet by 1-3 turns.

klarius
Apr 22, 2008, 04:58 PM
I think that the autolog also handles this. Let me check. Yes:

Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Mao Zedong(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Ok, we get the attitudes, but not the exact numerical values as in the foreign advisor screen. Screenies or manual notes may be required.
Yes the attitude changes are in the log if switched on. And the idea was that we have saves frequent enough that one can check the numerical values after the fact.
Wouldn't hurt if everybody would also set MaxAutoSaves in CivilizationIV.ini to a value greater than the length of their stint, so one can look if in doubt.

jesusin
Apr 23, 2008, 01:23 AM
Early exploration: send warrior as far as possible and meet all AI, and reveal all tiles asap.


What about the second warrior?
Shouldn't him explore the surroundings of our city, coming back when the happiness is needed?

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 02:03 AM
Where have you been, jesusin? We're counting on you to figure out where to saves turns in this mess, like you do with your cultural games. ;) Do we reserach Drama or not? When do we chop? When does saving two turns matter the most? Et cetera.

klarius
Apr 23, 2008, 02:57 AM
To the roster:
I recommend that Gnejs plays 20 turns (or 21-22 if he messes up ;)) to AH.
That's the point where we should decide if we are nervous and go for archery for a 3-4 turn delay on alphabet.

BTW, with the quickest paths to alphabet I lately had the problem that I couldn't trade for poly and meditation until 3 to 4 turns after (and priesthood even later). Then drama is the only useful research at this point and we should complete it later, even if we don't build globe.
Maybe even complete it first to be able to use the culture slider in case we cannot trade for happy resources.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 02:59 AM
Ok, I tried a few variations.
In fact hunting-AH gives alphabet fastest :).
Warrior - barracks (1 turn) - wb (timed to growth to 2 switching between furs and reg forest) - worker (fur camp first) - wb - library.
Note I never worked any mined resource (though the worker mined them). By that library didn't complete before alphabet. But that gave alphabet fastest.
Alphabet on turn 44.
Same result with my map pasturing horses before camping furs (but switching to furs when the camp is ready).

Worker first or AH w/o hunting is slower to alphabet by 1-3 turns.

T44 is excellent! But what happens with this variation if you delay the worker until after the 2nd workboat? If the only improvement that is worked pre-Alpha is the fur camp I don't see the need to complete the worker earlier. Research-wise the delay of the fur camp should be compensated by ~10t earlier growth to pop3 and working e.g. the second crab for a longer time.

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 03:52 AM
Yet another rule for Captain Erkon: Especially early on, we need to monitor our neighbors' attitudes about DoWing people and see if it changes to: "We have enough on our hands now." Maybe give us advance notice about needing archery.

jesusin
Apr 23, 2008, 03:55 AM
Where have you been, jesusin? We're counting on you to figure out where to saves turns in this mess, like you do with your cultural games. ;) Do we reserach Drama or not? When do we chop? When does saving two turns matter the most? Et cetera.

My life is a mess at the moment. :cry:


What about chopping once towards the Library? Saving a couple turns on the GS for the Academy is a big deal.

There's no need to decide on Drama just now. The options are getting Drama or researching PH/CoL ourselves.

A relatively late second Worker might be helpful when the serious cottaging time arrives, and also for roading for our partner later on.


A question: I have yet to play an OCC domination game. What's the role of our units in the pre-PA common wars? Should we detour to Construction for Cats?

FiveAces
Apr 23, 2008, 03:58 AM
Where have you been, jesusin? We're counting on you to figure out where to saves turns in this mess, like you do with your cultural games. ;) Do we reserach Drama or not? When do we chop? When does saving two turns matter the most? Et cetera.

IMO saving turns matters most for CS so we should chop towards the library and GL. And then IMO only pre-chop the remaining trees to save for uni/oxford since our critical path is beakers.

T44 is excellent! But what happens with this variation if you delay the worker until after the 2nd workboat? If the only improvement that is worked pre-Alpha is the fur camp I don't see the need to complete the worker earlier. Research-wise the delay of the fur camp should be compensated by ~10t earlier growth to pop3 and working e.g. the second crab for a longer time.

You also have to factor in the delay to the library (and by extension academy) if you don't have a 5h tile. At size 4 (pre-alpha) I worked the 2 seafood, furs, and stone mine while building library. I also mined the marble pre-alpha. Then with alpha I roaded the furs, immediately grew to 5 once they were completed, used that citizen to work the marble mine, then turned the mine-working citizens into sci's for academy.

BTW, with the quickest paths to alphabet I lately had the problem that I couldn't trade for poly and meditation until 3 to 4 turns after (and priesthood even later). Then drama is the only useful research at this point and we should complete it later, even if we don't build globe.
Maybe even complete it first to be able to use the culture slider in case we cannot trade for happy resources.

I have had the same problem - BUT Mansa wasn't on our continent in any of the maps I tried. And I've never had a problem quickly trading up to PH in any of my HoF games. I think we put our after-alpha beakers into poly. We trade for myst+wheel 1st turn, with luck we can then trade writing for poly 2nd turn, then poly for PH sometime later.

Wouldn't the extra citizen need to increase beakers by 10% to compensate for reducing the research slider? At size 5 we're 25 raw (8+5+3+3+3+3), with lib+academy that's 43.75bpt @ 100%, but only 39.375bpt @ 90%. So yes, I suppose it is better if he works a 3c or better tile - but then only until beauro.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 03:59 AM
Yet another rule for Captain Erkon: Especially early on, we need to monitor our neighbors' attitudes about DoWing people and see if it changes to: "We have enough on our hands now." Maybe give us advance notice about needing archery.

They will also say this if they are at war with an AI that we haven't met...

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 04:02 AM
My life is a mess at the moment. :cry:


What about chopping once towards the Library? Saving a couple turns on the GS for the Academy is a big deal.

A question: I have yet to play an OCC domination game. What's the role of our units in the pre-PA common wars? Should we detour to Construction for Cats?Our worker doesn't have an axe for chopping LIbrary yet, only a butter knife. We get Construction for free before we really have time to build cats, I think. There may be a cat-building window while we're researching CS/Paper/Educ which might dovetail nicely with our partner getting maces. I haven't managed to test that though.

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 04:05 AM
They will also say this if they are at war with an AI that we haven't met...I know. ALso if they're planning to DoW someone else. Luckily, we have klarius on our side to read between the lines.

klarius
Apr 23, 2008, 04:09 AM
T44 is excellent! But what happens with this variation if you delay the worker until after the 2nd workboat? If the only improvement that is worked pre-Alpha is the fur camp I don't see the need to complete the worker earlier. Research-wise the delay of the fur camp should be compensated by ~10t earlier growth to pop3 and working e.g. the second crab for a longer time.
It should be possible to win another turn on alphabet. But the progress on the library is much worse then and if we should have horses there is no time to hook them before alpha, when we will be pressed to hook the marble and furs and improve the stone.
Depending on how trading (techs and luxes) goes we will suffer a delay on GLib.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 04:13 AM
You also have to factor in the delay to the library (and by extension academy) if you don't have a 5h tile. At size 4 (pre-alpha) I worked the 2 seafood, furs, and stone mine while building library. I also mined the marble pre-alpha. Then with alpha I roaded the furs, immediately grew to 5 once they were completed, used that citizen to work the marble mine, then turned the mine-working citizens into sci's for academy.


It should be possible to win another turn on alphabet. But the progress on the library is much worse then and if we should have horses there is no time to hook them before alpha, when we will be pressed to hook the marble and furs and improve the stone.
Depending on how trading (techs and luxes) goes we will suffer a delay on GLib.

The progress on the library is actually better. If I calculate correctly I can get to pop 5 on T43, complete the library on T44, and discover Alpha on T44 without any mines. This is using warrior-wb-wb-worker-library. Fur is roaded on T48, marble quarried and connected on T52, GS for academy pops on T61.

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 04:22 AM
Wouldn't the extra citizen need to increase beakers by 10% to compensate for reducing the research slider? At size 5 we're 25 raw (8+5+3+3+3+3), with lib+academy that's 43.75bpt @ 100%, but only 39.375bpt @ 90%. So yes, I suppose it is better if he works a 3c or better tile - but then only until beauro.Being able to grow freely would be huge and we should have Hereditary rule well before CS anyway.

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 04:28 AM
The progress on the library is actually better. If I calculate correctly I can get to pop 5 on T43, complete the library on T44, and discover Alpha on T44 without any mines. This is using warrior-wb-wb-worker-library. Fur is roaded on T48, marble quarried and connected on T52, GS for academy pops on T61.This may be good if we can trade for a :) by T43.

FiveAces
Apr 23, 2008, 04:38 AM
The progress on the library is actually better. If I calculate correctly I can get to pop 5 on T43, complete the library on T44, and discover Alpha on T44 without any mines. This is using warrior-wb-wb-worker-library. Fur is roaded on T48, marble quarried and connected on T52, GS for academy pops on T61.

You can't work the 5th citizen though until T48 since that's when the fur is roaded - but that only delays GS 3-4 turns. That might be the way to go. I'll mess around a bit tonight and see if I can do any better with a different build order.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 04:55 AM
You can't work the 5th citizen though until T48 since that's when the fur is roaded - but that only delays GS 3-4 turns. That might be the way to go. I'll mess around a bit tonight and see if I can do any better with a different build order.

I have already taken this into account. At pop 5 we work 2xcrab+2 scientists + one unhappy at zero growth, until the fur is connected. No delay of the GS.

klarius
Apr 23, 2008, 04:57 AM
Being able to grow freely would be huge and we should have Hereditary rule well before CS anyway.
Well, I usually had no trade bait for monarchy before CS.

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 05:38 AM
Well, I usually had no trade bait for monarchy before CS.I guess not on your map. On Erkon's map I have every time. I think it depends on whether we have enough neighbors with HeredRule as their favorite civic, whether anyone has Grapes, and whether we know Mansa. I've figured out that it's best to not trade Mansa CoL or something comparable around the the time people start getting Monarchy.

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 05:41 AM
I have already taken this into account. At pop 5 we work 2xcrab+2 scientists + one unhappy at zero growth, until the fur is connected. No delay of the GS.I presume you have your worker waiting on the Marble hill when you get The Wheel in trade since the Marble is quarried and connected so fast. Why not just have the worker waiting on the Furs? Furs are connected 3 turns sooner and marble is the same. {brain fart}

FiveAces
Apr 23, 2008, 05:50 AM
I guess not on your map. On Erkon's map I have every time. I think it depends on whether we have enough neighbors with HeredRule as their favorite civic, whether anyone has Grapes, and whether we know Mansa. I've figured out that it's best to not trade Mansa CoL or something comparable around the the time people start getting Monarchy.

I think it's best not to trade Mansa anything unique unless he's the only one with a tech you must have right then - he'll trade whatever you give him IBT as soon as a new tech becomes available from someone which blocks you out. But if you can wait a bit, he will trade whatever he has to someone else for another tech you probably don't have, and then you can get both those techs.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 06:12 AM
I presume you have your worker waiting on the Marble hill when you get The Wheel in trade since the Marble is quarried and connected so fast. Why not just have the worker waiting on the Furs? Furs are connected 3 turns sooner and marble is the same.

I think that my plan indeed included having the worker waiting on the fur... but I am doing a pen and paper excersize here so don't hold it against me if the details are wrong. The number of turns required for various worker actions is one such detail... :)

klarius
Apr 23, 2008, 07:34 AM
I presume you have your worker waiting on the Marble hill when you get The Wheel in trade since the Marble is quarried and connected so fast. Why not just have the worker waiting on the Furs? Furs are connected 3 turns sooner and marble is the same.
You need a road on the furs and on the marble to connect the furs. It doesn't really matter which road you do first, just that you do both roads before quarry.

The quarry will not be as fast as Gnejs thinks. It takes 6 turns to build it. But that's no problem as we don't need the marble resource at that time probably. Depending on worker turns available before, we can have either marble or stone (could be too tight with the late worker) mined, so production can be up earlier (for granary or lighthouse).

morpheus11
Apr 23, 2008, 07:36 AM
Something else that might help in eliminating confusion between ideas is a set list of acronyms.

For example, GL, in the last SGOTM that was Great Leader, now I believe it to mean Great Library, but it could also be Great Lighthouse.

Much like what Erkons says about using the smilies to help express emotions to avoid confusion acronyms can cause people to misunderstand what the writer was trying to say. You can take or leave this suggestion b/c I am not playing any turns so as long as all of you understand what each other are saying everything should be fine. :goodjob:

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 10:14 AM
You need a road on the furs and on the marble to connect the furs. It doesn't really matter which road you do first, just that you do both roads before quarry.

The quarry will not be as fast as Gnejs thinks. It takes 6 turns to build it. But that's no problem as we don't need the marble resource at that time probably. Depending on worker turns available before, we can have either marble or stone (could be too tight with the late worker) mined, so production can be up earlier (for granary or lighthouse).Right. And I even knew that, having connected those furs 40 times in the last two weeks... :crazyeye: :lol:

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 10:21 AM
Got 740ad PA on Erkon's save again, but this time skipping Drama. I also threw in 10 cats and Catty and I eliminated Washington, so that Cathy has 6 cities at around 100ad. BUt that I could have done on the Drama route also, I just didn't bother. But I did play a few turns ahead and my absolutely certain conlcusion is that Drama with Globe is the better route. War weariness is immediate and drastic. I suppose because Cathy's strategy is to suicide 50 units per city. This also works well with getting Alpha on T44 and being forced to throw some turns into Drama.

If wb-wkr-wb and wb-wb-wkr are more or less the same, then I think the earlier wkr is much better, because we'll need the stone mine to speed up the GLib and to chop a forest, if we so decide. Even more important, though, is that we want both the stone and marble mined in advance, because we plan to DoW someone at that point and we may have to send the worker to mine copper or iron (hopefully) right then. So there won't be any turns available for the worker to camp furs and the like.

EDIT: I'm even thinking a second worker, somehow, might not hurt. It sure would help later on.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 10:45 AM
Got 740ad PA on Erkon's save again, but this time skipping Drama. I also threw in 10 cats and Catty and I eliminated Washington, so that Cathy has 6 cities at around 100ad. BUt that I could have done on the Drama route also, I just didn't bother. But I did play a few turns ahead and my absolutely certain conlcusion is that Drama with Globe is the better route. War weariness is immediate and drastic. I suppose because Cathy's strategy is to suicide 50 units per city. This also works well with getting Alpha on T44 and being forced to throw some turns into Drama.

If wb-wkr-wb and wb-wb-wkr are more or less the same, then I think the earlier wkr is much better, because we'll need the stone mine to speed up the GLib and to chop a forest, if we so decide. Even more important, though, is that we want both the stone and marble mined in advance, because we plan to DoW someone at that point and we may have to send the worker to mine copper or iron (hopefully) right then. So there won't be any turns available for the worker to camp furs and the like.

EDIT: I'm even thinking a second worker, somehow, might not hurt. It sure would help later on.

I am assuming that we are running 2 scientists from the moment we complete our library until we pop a GS 17 turns later. This means that for the first 5 turns after Alphabet, until the fur is connected, we will not be able to work either mines or quarries. For the next 6 turns, while the marble is being quarried, we can work the Fur camp instead with less hammers but more science. After this we can work the marble while the worker starts chopping towards the GL.

LC, I don't see a need for any military units until much later. We DoW at Alpha and get at least two AIs to join in on our side. This way there is no chance at all that the civ we are at war with will send a single unit into our land.

Erkon
Apr 23, 2008, 11:14 AM
To the roster:
I recommend that Gnejs plays 20 turns (or 21-22 if he messes up ;)) to AH.
That's the point where we should decide if we are nervous and go for archery for a 3-4 turn delay on alphabet.
...

According to my proposal, LC will do his mid-turnset break when we reach AH. I would prefer shorter initial turnset this game since that will enable more discussion and analysis of our neighbors.

However, I will update the plan if other team members support klarius' ideas... :mischief:

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 11:20 AM
LC, I don't see a need for any military units until much later. We DoW at Alpha and get at least two AIs to join in on our side. This way there is no chance at all that the civ we are at war with will send a single unit into our land.I agree, but we have no idea what the situation will be. On Erkon's map, it was necessary to build some axes. If our common enemy is not a neighbor, it will be easier. I think it behooves us to be prepared to build units. By the way, I'm getting the GS on T60, and that's with Alpha on T48, because I haven't tried either of the two refinements.

Erkon
Apr 23, 2008, 11:24 AM
Something else that might help in eliminating confusion between ideas is a set list of acronyms.

For example, GL, in the last SGOTM that was Great Leader, now I believe it to mean Great Library, but it could also be Great Lighthouse...

Acronyms shall be used when they are not ambiguous. GL = Great Leader, GLib = Great Library, GLH = Great Lighthouse.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 11:25 AM
I agree, but we have no idea what the situation will be. On Erkon's map, it was necessary to build some axes. If our common enemy is not a neighbor, it will be easier. I think it behooves us to be prepared to build units. By the way, I'm getting the GS on T60, and that's with Alpha on T48, because I haven't tried either of the two refinements.

We don't need to decide until the first work boat is completed which will happen around T14. That might actually be a good stopping point.

Edit: I didn't need any axes on Erkons map...

Edit #2: I think... (starting to mix up all these test games)

Erkon
Apr 23, 2008, 12:21 PM
On Gnejs' map I can reach alpha at T45 with 66 hammers into library and 18 food @ pop4:

warrior - barracks(1T) - wb - worker - wb - library

fishing - hunting - AH - writing - alpha

Maximise food. 7 AI does not have writing. Worker was idle one turn. Marble and Stone mined, furs camped.

How does this compare to other ways?

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 12:49 PM
Sounds like wb-wkr-wb and wb-wb-wkr are different enough, in terms of mined stone or not, that a more important milestone is when the GLib is finished in either scenario. That's when we can stop hiring scientists for a while.

EDIT: Furthermore, the only really good test is the way klarius does it--try different variations yourself. Otherwise, we may be missing something. For example, Cathy DoWs Washington and I join immediately, even though I don't even have a metal hooked up. So I go mine the iron, becuase if I don't Washington sends a couple units over and screws everything up. So that slows my test down compared to someone who doesn't DoW Washington immediately. So then I try not DoWing Washington immediately, but wait till Cathy extorts me. Then she Cease Fires and Wshington dumps a sh!tload on me. So I find out I'm safer if I immediately DoW and then connect iron.

EDIT2: This also points to us developing a general plan for various possibilities, because whatever happens, it probably won't be just like anything we've done in testing. Maybe we should develop the best bee-line that also plays it relatively safely. For example, maybe wb-wkr is safer, as Gnejs put it earlier, just in case we need to go into serious production mode. At pop5, we can produce 2 axes per turn if need be.

Erkon
Apr 23, 2008, 01:37 PM
Second try on Gnejs' I delay alpha with one turn but on T45 I have 76 hammers into library and 1 food @ pop5:

warrior - barracks(1T) - wb - wb - worker - library

fishing - hunting - AH - writing - alpha

Maximise food. 6 AI does not have writing. Worker was idle one turn. Marble mined, furs camped.

Compared to war-wb-wrk-wb-lib I have:
+10 food
+10 hammers
-1 turn alpha
-1 AI writing
-stone mined

Mītiu Ioan
Apr 23, 2008, 05:19 PM
Heeelllpppp - I couldn't load/start the demo-game in Vanilla version ( even if I played unil now without problems in BTS !! ).

A pop-up appeared and tell me something about a rendering problem ... :(

LowtherCastle
Apr 23, 2008, 06:01 PM
Two propositions for discussion

1. This is an exciting SG for me because of the deity level, but moreso because as a team we've come together with such good discussion and exploration of the possibilities. I just hope that none of us has spent all his energy on these preps, because we're soon to see the real FC and that might change the start considerably.

Proposition 1: After Gnejs moves the warrior, we decide where to settle and know our fat cross, if the FC is effectively different, I propose we take the weekend (or more) to make new test maps and get an approximate idea of when we'll get Alpha.

2. On the topic of our roster and klarius' proposal for Gnejs to play to AH (~20t). I guess a Normal speed SG usually goes 20-15-10-10..., but I understand Erkon's concern since this is an intense deity game and the first turnset or two might not be as boring as usual. I also fully agree with Erkon that we should routinely stop mid-turnset and discuss new circumstances. More specifically, I view all of the turnsets from the beginning to at least a turnset or two after Alphabet as critical. Kind of do-or-die. We really need to work together to gather info for the ensuing players, in particular to set up the turnset with Alphabet to hopefully create a partner-DoW.

If things go our way, then the Alpha turnset may be the most critical turnset of the whole game and we should have a good idea before we begin when that will be. According to Erkon's roster plan, Alpha would come at the beginning of the 5th turnset, and by klarius' roster, at the beginning of the 4th turnset. That may chnage when we see the FC. Now, we are free, as a team, to decide how to manage our human resources, although it's somehow more fun to stick to the roster order once we have started. I personally would like to maximize our chances and it is not my intention to offend anyone, but at the risk of doing so, I put forward:

Proposition 2: I propose that once we know the likely timing of Alphabet, we set up our roster so that klarius' turnset more or less begins with Alphabet.

I understand we're all whizbangers and klarius can screw up just like anyone else, "but them thar's my preference." So now you know. Slot me in 2nd (as is) or anywhere else. If this idea bugs anyone, no problem, we can leave it as is.

FiveAces
Apr 23, 2008, 11:00 PM
LC I think the only thing in the FC that could really screw up our pre-planning is deer. Otherwise if we settle in place, we're playing like we've been, and if we settle on the stone or marble b/c of S resources, our plan is different but we're pretty much gonna go worker first and improve/work them by default (our builds will be very different though without the wb's). But I agree if there's deer or we move we should pause for a few days before continuing the turnset.

Erkon If we're going to mine 1 resource I think it should be the stone. We need to quarry the marble for GLib, but the stone can stay mined til Oxford and I think the 1 extra worker turn to do that is worth it for the extra production in case we need it to rush axes or something.

Gnejs Any chance you'll have the screenshot posted before I leave the office today?

I'm not particular where I fall in the roster. The key turnsets are the opening one, which we all seem to be able to do about equally well, the alpha one, which we get help on, and the one we get DOW'd on (if that ever happens). Hopefully that happens when a warmonger is up and not us peaceful builders. I can just see the look on your guys faces if I broke the news that we were still alive, but had all our infrastructure pillaged.

Gnejs
Apr 23, 2008, 11:45 PM
Got it! :)

Screenshot coming here soon...



Scrap all previous plans. We have:
Deer and Cow
175170

Erkon
Apr 24, 2008, 12:02 AM
He he, back to the drawing board! Although my intuition tells me to settle in place as planned...

Just to remind everyone in the team: it's not possible to upload the 4000 BC save, so if anyone want to load the game, Gnejs will have to upload to this thread.

Gnejs, thanks for the quick screenshot :goodjob:

Heeelllpppp - I couldn't load/start the demo-game in Vanilla version ( even if I played unil now without problems in BTS !! ).

A pop-up appeared and tell me something about a rendering problem ... :(

Mitiu, please post screenshot of pop-up and we can then help you.

FiveAces
Apr 24, 2008, 12:04 AM
Well that's definitely an improvement. My initial reaction:

settle in place
fishing-hunting-ah-writ-alpha (unchanged)
war-wor-wb-wb
worker: camp deer, camp furs, mine stone
citizens: grass forest, deer forest (border exp), fur forest (size 2), crab#1 (when netted), citizen #2 fur forest then crab #2 when netted

I thought about the above for 2 minutes - I'm sure it can be improved on :)

Mītiu Ioan
Apr 24, 2008, 12:06 AM
Mitiu, please post screenshot of pop-up and we can then help you.

O.K. - I'll do it when I arrive back home. :(

I still support setling in place option + research of Fishing first. ;)

Regards all

klarius
Apr 24, 2008, 12:13 AM
Still settle in place for sure. The cow is not worth losing the crabs and 3-5 health.
And we shouldn't go back to the drawing board before we have settled. There are still fogged tiles which could crry other resources.

I'm still thinking warrior-wb-worker. We don't really need the deer camped soon. We rather have our food come from crabs for the commerce. And still the furs camped first for the same reason.

FiveAces
Apr 24, 2008, 01:30 AM
I'm still thinking warrior-wb-worker. We don't really need the deer camped soon. We rather have our food come from crabs for the commerce. And still the furs camped first for the same reason.

The early extra hammer from the deer (IIRC that becomes a 3f3h tile when improved?) will give us our builds sooner, which results in faster growth to size 4 and faster library/academy. Does that offset the lost commerce from not working the crabs initially?

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 01:47 AM
Deer camp yield will be 4f2h.

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 01:53 AM
Hotsy totsy! Gyathaar expects us to settle in place. (I pm'ed him and he told me :joke:.)
With OCC, it would be absurd to not give ourselves access to the sea. We don't even know if our continent will exceed the domination limit. So I agree with klarius, Gnejs should settle and give us the new screenshot before further testing.

Btw, what happened to our whales? Are they there, Gnejs? Not that it matters.

EDIT: Gnejs, after settling, would you also zoom out and give us a screenshot of the cultural view if we can already see some culture? It might help us avoid a dead-end to the SE with our exploring warrior.

FiveAces
Apr 24, 2008, 03:24 AM
Deer camp yield will be 4f2h.

Thanks - I agree with klarius then.

EDIT: LC the 2F sea tile must have the whales though they don't show up very well - must be the blue marble. Will we need to use blue marble to open the save, or can we play without it?

jesusin
Apr 24, 2008, 03:34 AM
At pop5, we can produce 2 axes per turn if need be.

That's not nearly enough. We need at least 10 units per turn out of our single city to be on the safe side :p:D:p

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 04:21 AM
Lol. Did I really say 2 axes per turn? Sorry. I meant we can produce two turns per axe.

Gnejs
Apr 24, 2008, 04:32 AM
Thanks - I agree with klarius then.

EDIT: LC the 2F sea tile must have the whales though they don't show up very well - must be the blue marble. Will we need to use blue marble to open the save, or can we play without it?

I don't even have blue marble. I guess the resource bubble is off-screen.


I see several hands in favour of settling in place, and no one is suggesting otherwise. As soon as I get home this afternoon I will settle and post a new screenshot. ETA 5 hrs, is that ok for you FiveAces?

Gnejs
Apr 24, 2008, 04:34 AM
EDIT: Gnejs, after settling, would you also zoom out and give us a screenshot of the cultural view if we can already see some culture? It might help us avoid a dead-end to the SE with our exploring warrior.

There won't be any AIs settling until I press end of turn, but it is a good idea for later.

FiveAces
Apr 24, 2008, 04:45 AM
I don't even have blue marble. I guess the resource bubble is off-screen.


I see several hands in favour of settling in place, and no one is suggesting otherwise. As soon as I get home this afternoon I will settle and post a new screenshot. ETA 5 hrs, is that ok for you FiveAces?

Well since tomorrow is the weekend here, I'll likely be gone by then (~730PM in Dubai) so please don't wait to hear back from me before continuing. I will try to come in some Saturday to catch up but I guess you will have to make do without my wisdom until then ;)

jesusin
Apr 24, 2008, 04:47 AM
With OCC, it would be absurd to not give ourselves access to the sea. We don't even know if our continent will exceed the domination limit. So I agree with klarius, Gnejs should settle and give us the new screenshot before further testing.


I agree too. Once settled, long pause and test games to compare different starts. My first feeling is worker first now, but I have to try it out.

FiveAces
Apr 24, 2008, 05:02 AM
I agree too. Once settled, long pause and test games to compare different starts. My first feeling is worker first now, but I have to try it out.

Worker first won't benefit from the 4-yield deer tile until T6 since it's outside the initial culture box. Worker will be built in fewest turns (before netting crabs) if you build warrior T1-5 then switch after the border expansion.

Erkon
Apr 24, 2008, 06:12 AM
Regarding turn set length and roster: I am flexible with the length so that a turn set ends when we have lot's of stuff to discuss / when we have achieved a certain milestone. Since the first two turn sets will be much more intense than what we're used to, and we have plenty to discuss from the knowledge of our neighbors, I still prefer these two turn sets to be shorter than usual. I would prefer if the same person handles all of our early tech trade and DoW bribing due to continuity. This may have an impact on the length of jesusin's turn set (either very short or very long TS), but lets plan the length of each TS when we have decided on when to reach alpha (before/on/after T44). If jesusin has messed up his life it may be better to give the responsibility to klarius :crazyeye:.

Thanks - I agree with klarius then.

EDIT: LC the 2F sea tile must have the whales though they don't show up very well - must be the blue marble. Will we need to use blue marble to open the save, or can we play without it?

You can play withing Blue Marble. Then you join the group of backwards and players who are not comfortable with change, such as Gnejs :p

...Erkon If we're going to mine 1 resource I think it should be the stone. We need to quarry the marble for GLib, but the stone can stay mined til Oxford and I think the 1 extra worker turn to do that is worth it for the extra production in case we need it to rush axes or something...

Yep, stone is better to mine than marble. The number of worker turns needed may impact the build order as well. We want the furs and deer to be camped before alpha, and stone mined. Thats ~20 turns? Even if horses show up 1N of Beijing, do we care, now that we have a lot of nice tiles to work?

The screenshot by Gnejs looks different to the original regarding the tile 1S-2W of settler. On Gnejs' map it doesn't look like a forest tile :confused:

Gnejs - you have a go to settle in place and post screenshot tonight. Then I expect a proper PPP from you slacker! :mischief:

Erkon
Apr 24, 2008, 06:20 AM
Note to team: I will be AFK from (including) Tuesday April 29th to (including) Sunday May 4th.

FiveAces
Apr 24, 2008, 06:26 AM
Even if horses show up 1N of Beijing, do we care, now that we have a lot of nice tiles to work?

I think so, since before Globe/HR we want to emphasize commerce and hammers over food once we hit size 4 then 5 due to the happy cap.

Combine klarius and erkon comments and I think you hit the nail on the head about which tiles to work/improve, and when to build the worker:

To max commerce, you want to build the worker using the crabs and not the deer. But since we have another pre-alpha tile to improve, we want the worker earlier than before, and the deer is +4 towards the worker instead of +2 from crab.

So I think war-barracks(1T)-wb-wor-wb is ideal, build worker by working netted crabs+deer (unimproved of course) at IIRC size 2, then improve the furs 1st and work to offset loss of 2nd crab commerce during worker build. But I have not practiced or calculated, so this could well be wrong.

Also note that the 1 turn on the barracks will allow us to switch to it later for immediate pop-rush without the penalty if we are caught unprepared for DOW.

klarius
Apr 24, 2008, 07:29 AM
Yep, stone is better to mine than marble. The number of worker turns needed may impact the build order as well. We want the furs and deer to be camped before alpha, and stone mined.
Before we need marble resource, mined marble may be beneficial because it's one hammer more than quarried. So I'm not so sure - we have to establish first if we need any of these stony stuff at all. Roughly I estimated that we could use one already for speeding up library, then it may even be critical to not waste a turn moving.

I don't think we need the deer camp before we solved our happiness problem - well after alpha. We need commerce to get to alpha, so I think we will not work the deer at all after the initial phase. I'm not accepting getting slower to alphabet, because we have better resources :crazyeye:.

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 08:47 AM
If jesusin has messed up his lifeHe didn't say who messed it up. Maybe it was a she. Or an it (food). :)

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 09:00 AM
I don't think we need the deer camp before we solved our happiness problem - well after alpha. We need commerce to get to alpha, so I think we will not work the deer at all after the initial phase. I'm not accepting getting slower to alphabet, because we have better resources :crazyeye:.I just played your revised map. Couple things I noticed. If I'm not mistaken, warrior-wkr(1t)-wb... gets us the worker 1 turn sooner at a cost of 2f and a few beakers.

Peculiar to your map, but perhaps history will repeat itself, I was able to trade Cyrus horses for Ivory, shortly after I finished the pasture. I camped the deer before mining and was able to use the deer to grow to pop5 somewhere around T40, finishing the Library on T42, and Alpha T44, iirc. I built a second wkr while hiring 2 scientists and had both workers to chop the GLib.

One other idiosynchrasy: Once when I got Alpha (not sure if it was pre-T44) NO ONE had writing yet AND Mansa offered me BW in the IT!!! But then I replayed it, trading for the ivory and camping the deer earlier, and on T44 a few had writing already.

Erkon
Apr 24, 2008, 09:35 AM
... As soon as I get home this afternoon I will settle and post a new screenshot. ETA 5 hrs, is that ok for you FiveAces?

Time's up - you have just forfeited your turn set sucker! Don't tell me you're prioritizing wife and kids, are you? Man, you gotta get your priorities right... :mischief:

jesusin
Apr 24, 2008, 09:44 AM
I don't think we need the deer camp before we solved our happiness problem - well after alpha. We need commerce to get to alpha, so I think we will not work the deer at all after the initial phase. I'm not accepting getting slower to alphabet, because we have better resources :crazyeye:.

Well, of course, but...

My heart cries when I think of working an improved clams and not working an improved deers while building a Library.

Alpha date is not the only goal of our start. After Alpha, the big stepping stones of our game are Academy and CS. I think I would gladly delay Alpha 2 turns if I can get the library (and consequently the Academy) 4 turns sooner.

klarius
Apr 24, 2008, 09:45 AM
I just played your revised map. Couple things I noticed. If I'm not mistaken, warrior-wkr(1t)-wb... gets us the worker 1 turn sooner at a cost of 2f and a few beakers.

Don't think so. Growing 1 turn later will delay the wb by 1 turn, so you start the worker 1 turn later.

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 09:55 AM
My heart cries when I think of working an improved clams and not working an improved deers while building a Library.How about if we mine the second crab tile? :p

Erkon
Apr 24, 2008, 10:24 AM
...
My heart cries when I think of working an improved clams and not working an improved deers while building a Library.

Alpha date is not the only goal of our start. After Alpha, the big stepping stones of our game are Academy and CS. I think I would gladly delay Alpha 2 turns if I can get the library (and consequently the Academy) 4 turns sooner.

There will be a strong correlation with the end date of all teams and their alpha date. During the two turns we delay alpha, the AI will generate 20 equivalent Beijing-turns of research, and the consequence may be that we cannot instigate a war as good as we want, or have to break the alpha monopoly too early, or cannot trade for the techs we want.

I would guess that the difference in alpha by two turns is equivalent to a tech, which is vastly more valuable than the 4 turns of academy-boosted research.

Jesusin, when do you predict that we will run 2 scientists? At size 5? Before alpha? Perhaps we view this game very different??? :eek:

LowtherCastle
Apr 24, 2008, 10:28 AM
Don't think so. Growing 1 turn later will delay the wb by 1 turn, so you start the worker 1 turn later.I'm not sure how you're doing it, then. I'm getting these possibilities:

wkr(1t)
T14(3440bc)--wkr(13/60h) 8h/t (6t)--1/24:food:--AH(38/143:science:) (6t) (working clams/deer from now on)

Rax(1t)
T14(3440bc)--wkr(06/60h) 8h/t (7t)--3/24:food:--AH(47/143:science:) (6t) (working clams/deer from T14 on)
T14(3440bc)--wkr(06/60h) 7h/t (8t)--3/24:food:--AH(47/143:science:) (5t) (working clams/furs from T14 on)
T14(3440bc)--wkr(09/60h) 8h/t (7t)--2/24:food:--AH(41/143:science:) (6t) (working clams/deer from T14 on)
T14(3440bc)--wkr(06/60h) 7h/t (8t)--2/24:food:--AH(41/143:science:) (6t) (working clams/furs from T14 on)

In all five cases, my wb is done on T13 and nets laid on T14.

Gnejs
Apr 24, 2008, 12:14 PM
Sorry for the delay. Here is the SS:

Plains sheep in fat cross! I get the feeling that this is too easy...
175207

Gnejs
Apr 24, 2008, 12:18 PM
You can play withing Blue Marble. Then you join the group of backwards and players who are not comfortable with change, such as Gnejs :p

Am I change? :mischief:


Gnejs - you have a go to settle in place and post screenshot tonight. Then I expect a proper PPP from you slacker! :mischief:

Note to team: I will be AFK from (including) Tuesday April 29th to (including) Sunday May 4th.

Slacker! :p

Time's up - you have just forfeited your turn set sucker! Don't tell me you're prioritizing wife and kids, are you? Man, you gotta get your priorities right... :mischief:

I have the save now, I have the save now, neener, neener neener! :p:p:p

Erkon
Apr 24, 2008, 12:46 PM
...The screenshot by Gnejs looks different to the original regarding the tile 1S-2W of settler. On Gnejs' map it doesn't look like a forest tile :confused:...

From now on you can refer me to Erkon-the-Hawk. :cool:

Gnejs
Apr 24, 2008, 01:05 PM
I don't think I have ever seen such a production monster site. At size 9 we can have 26 base hammers. :eek:

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 01:09 AM
I'm ready to ask AlanH about one thing. Do AIes got stone from the start? If do, then all teams are victims. (wow! it looks like a poem!:lol:)I don't know if the AIs have stones. Don't know if any CRC players have stones either. I know I got 'em. :D

jesusin
Apr 25, 2008, 01:28 AM
How about if we mine the second crab tile? :p

Keep your hands out of my food! ;)



Erkon: I don't know if the Library can't come before Alpha anymore. Would someone be so kind as to set up a test map with the sheep? I won't be available this weekend, though.



Regarding the roster: There may well be a strategic element in the decision to assign a certain turnset to a certain person. However, this might lead to indesirable situations (for example, who would allow LC to play any turns at all, if given the opportunity to prevent it? :joke:).
I am glad to allow the captain to propose any roster he likes, and I will always approve his proposal. Once the roster is defined, though, I'd prefer to stick to it and allow everyone to play their complete turnset. IMO the fun element and the learning element are better off this way, even if the final result can suffer a bit.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 02:21 AM
However, this might lead to indesirable situations (for example, who would allow LC to play any turns at all, if given the opportunity to prevent it? :joke:).I resemble that. :mad:

Here is klarius' save slightly modified.

jesusin
Apr 25, 2008, 02:45 AM
I resemble that. :mad:

Here is klarius' save slightly modified.

I take after my father.

Thank you for the save!

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 02:46 AM
Erkon: I don't know if the Library can't come before Alpha anymore. Would someone be so kind as to set up a test map with the sheep? I won't be available this weekend, though.

It's no problem to get library before alpha. And you don't need sheep for that (they arent even useful).
BTW the fact influencing library the most is not production (we can have 11 hammers easily at size 4 which can go up to 12 while building), but the time we get writing.

jesusin
Apr 25, 2008, 02:59 AM
It's no problem to get library before alpha. And you don't need sheep for that (they arent even useful).
BTW the fact influencing library the most is not production (we can have 11 hammers easily at size 4 which can go up to 12 while building), but the time we get writing.

I am still thinking about work clams or work deer while building Library.
In general, I don't think that an "library asap + 2 scientist asap" approach will delay alphabet. But we should try it out.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 03:18 AM
I'm not surehow you guys are getting Alpha on T44 with wb1-wkr, but doing that with war-wkr(1t) and pasturing the horses (which we may not have, of course) before camping the furs, I get library on T41 at the latest, start working 2 scientists immediately and get Alpha on T45.

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 06:26 AM
I'm not surehow you guys are getting Alpha on T44 with wb1-wkr, but doing that with war-wkr(1t) and pasturing the horses (which we may not have, of course) before camping the furs, I get library on T41 at the latest, start working 2 scientists immediately and get Alpha on T45.
You were the one that claimed lately T44 is possible :p.
I know, I achieved it at least once, but with knowing a lot civs.
There maybe a civ knowing bonus associated with AH and even writing then.

With spread sheets, not using anything but the prerequisite bonus, I cannot get better than T45.
And I need either horses or a lux trade for that.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 06:35 AM
RIght. I see that now. That was when I got ivory from Cyrus. Speaking of which, I hate this. Drives me crazy, but in the save below, I cannot for the life of me figure out why I have no trade routes with anyone. I have no idea why they suddenly became available in the other game and in this one, I can't even get them with manipulations with WB. :crazyeye:

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 06:49 AM
A Puzzle

Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.

The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)Sailing
BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonryby the end of T44. It's doable but I failed on my first try. ;)

EDIT: So much for the deer...using the same save but mining the stone before camping the deer, I finished the library on T41, which led to Alpha on T43. Getting an early happy makes a big difference. But the random factor bites. Hatty already had writing and I couldn't get Sailing, but still got BW. Tricky getting Hatty up to Pleased, though, and it seems that if I trade Alpha to more than 1 AI then I can get her to pleased, but she wants more than the compromised Alpha for DoW.

Gnejs
Apr 25, 2008, 10:40 AM
Here is klarius' save slightly modified.

Comparative trial on that map. I didn't work the horses at any time to be able to compare better to other maps.

A. Warrior-Worker-WB-WB-Library
Writing T30
Library T44
Alphabet T47
All resources improved, Stone mined, 1 turn left on Marble Mine

B. Worker-WB-WB-Warrior-Library
Writing T29
Library T44
Alphabet T46
All resources improved, Stone and marble mined

C. Warrior-Worker(1t)-WB-Worker-WB-Library
Writing T29
Library T41
Alpabet T45
Fur, deer camped, sheep pastured, stone mined. Could have pastured horse instead of sheep

I could have speeded up Alphabet by one turn in all three variations. But that would have required working a coastal tile instead of the stone mine and the library wouldn't have been finished by Alpha.

C definitely comes out as the best.

Gnejs
Apr 25, 2008, 10:42 AM
EDIT: So much for the deer...using the same save but mining the stone before camping the deer, I finished the library on T41, which led to Alpha on T43. Getting an early happy makes a big difference. But the random factor bites. Hatty already had writing and I couldn't get Sailing, but still got BW. Tricky getting Hatty up to Pleased, though, and it seems that if I trade Alpha to more than 1 AI then I can get her to pleased, but she wants more than the compromised Alpha for DoW.

Did you trade for a happy resource? Did you work the horse pasture?

Erkon
Apr 25, 2008, 11:23 AM
...
C. Warrior-Worker(1t)-WB-Worker-WB-Library
Writing T29
Library T41
Alpabet T45
Fur, deer camped, sheep pastured, stone mined. Could have pastured horse instead of sheep

I could have speeded up Alphabet by one turn in all three variations. But that would have required working a coastal tile instead of the stone mine and the library wouldn't have been finished by Alpha.

C definitely comes out as the best.

Gnejs - please prepare a PPP for alternative C with early library. Then we can use that PPP as baseline and compare to. At what turns are the techs completed?

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 11:33 AM
Did you trade for a happy resource? Did you work the horse pasture?Both. I've tried it with and without the horses.

EDIT: I had to trade horses to get the ivory, but I figured it was worth it.

Gnejs
Apr 25, 2008, 01:50 PM
Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW, first 1520 turns
Research towards early Alpha along Fishing-Hunting-AH-Writing-Alpha track.
BUILD QUEUE
Warrior-Worker(1t)-Work Boat-Worker
UNIT MOVES
Starting Warrior is sent exploring. I will try to go as far south as possible in the hopes of meeting many AIs. This is to get the research discount for each AI that knows a tech we are researching. 2nd warrior explores along our borders, then heads home for garrison duty.
WORKER ACTIONS
Worker won't be available until after my turnset...
CITY MM
Work Grassland forest (2f1h) until warrior produced and borders expand on T5.
Switch to Deer (2f2h) on T5 putting 6h into worker.
Switch to Workboat on T6 while still working the deer.
Grow to pop 2 on T12. Work Deer+fur.
Work boat completed on T13, continue on worker using Deer+crab(unimproved).
Crab netted T14.
Worker completed T20.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Your head would look good on the end of a pole... NOT! :)
RESEARCH
Fishing (T6)-Hunting(T12)-Animal Husbandry(T20)
OTHERS

Civic change: None
Religion change: If it spreads this early, sure! :)


Updates for 20 turn turnset in RED.

Erkon
Apr 25, 2008, 02:06 PM
A Puzzle

Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.

The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)Sailing
BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonryby the end of T44. It's doable but I failed on my first try. ;)

...

I accidently traded for Archery instead of Sailing, so I failed :cry:

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 02:51 PM
A Puzzle

Here's my save for T44 Alpha, T42 LIbrary.

The challenge I submit to you: Acquire these techs, in any order (by hook or crook)Sailing
BW
The Wheel
Mysticism
Masonryby the end of T44. It's doable but I failed on my first try. ;)

Well, I made it on the first try. Including archery.

Note: Mansa doesn't know Alex. So after trading with Mansa for BW, I still get archery and TW from Alex.
Washington gives sailing, Freddy masonry and Monty myst.

Another note:
Only such cheap trades will work so you can swap equal beaker cost techs. The monopoly bonus is a little bit less than the deity penalty. Just all trade costs are truncated to multiples of 10g. By that the values get equal and trade can be made.

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 03:04 PM
RIght. I see that now. That was when I got ivory from Cyrus. Speaking of which, I hate this. Drives me crazy, but in the save below, I cannot for the life of me figure out why I have no trade routes with anyone. I have no idea why they suddenly became available in the other game and in this one, I can't even get them with manipulations with WB. :crazyeye:
I think that's an artefact of world buildering. If I sink some land in the west we are connected as we should due to sailing.
But the early trade connection we see on my map is by no way guaranteed on another map. That is connection via owned coastal tiles before sailing. That's only because there's typically an AI city in the west where the owned coastal tiles connect.

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 03:31 PM
Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW, first 15 turns
I still think the better breakpoint would be AH-worker, where one might want to re-plan.
But anyway looks good - go ahead.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 03:33 PM
PPP looks good pending klarius' and any other analysis. I think it's important to monitor each turn whether any adjacent neighbors are getting ready for war.

Gnejs, I can think of a couple of options for the second warrior after he explores the N. Not sure if he'll need to fogbust yet, but you could camp him out on the N plains tile to prevent forest creep. 'Twould be painful to not be able to improve horses if we get them.

Erkon, could you please link your template on the first page (or did I miss it?).

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 03:39 PM
I think that's an artefact of world buildering. If I sink some land in the west we are connected as we should due to sailing.
But the early trade connection we see on my map is by no way guaranteed on another map. That is connection via owned coastal tiles before sailing. That's only because there's typically an AI city in the west where the owned coastal tiles connect.Okay, thanks. That brings up a point on exploration, although probably not relevant till we get OBs. We'll probably want to try to enable trade networks by coastal routes to the west, because some of the AIs are getting Sailing before we get Alpha.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 03:42 PM
I still think the better breakpoint would be AH-worker, where one might want to re-plan.
But anyway looks good - go ahead.AH is also when we'll know if we're going to finish Alpha on ~T45 or ~T43.

EDIT: klarius' 'nonsense' actually isn't (see post 205). This mostly affected by gaining a :), so at AH, we won't yet know for sure.

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 03:44 PM
Okay, thanks. That brings up a point on exploration, although probably not relevant till we get OBs. We'll probably want to try to enable trade networks by coastal routes to the west, because some of the AIs are getting Sailing before we get Alpha.
Well we cannot do anything there. The one who knows sailing has to know the route, if it's an unowned tile.
Owned tiles work anyway for anybody at peace with the owner.

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 03:51 PM
AH is also when we'll know if we're going to finish Alpha on ~T45 or ~T43.
I don't think horses make more than maybe 1/2 turn difference. It now came to my mind :crazyeye: that the big difference between spreadsheet and test playing my map is the trade route, which one sometimes gets pretty early.
Ignore the nonsense.

klarius
Apr 25, 2008, 04:59 PM
A small spreadsheet about how trade values vary with people know it.
A trade is possible if our value is greater or equal than their value.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 05:36 PM
Well, I made it on the first try. Including archery.Speaking of archery, I've been avoiding it to perhaps forestall WFYABTA for at least another tech. We should discuss what techs, if any, we want to avoid for that reason.

LowtherCastle
Apr 25, 2008, 05:42 PM
Well we cannot do anything there. The one who knows sailing has to know the route, if it's an unowned tile.
Owned tiles work anyway for anybody at peace with the owner.That's even better. So we want to trade OBs asap with the AIs to our immediate SW and hope they resaerch Sailing early on, right?

jesusin
Apr 25, 2008, 11:47 PM
Speaking of archery, I've been avoiding it to perhaps forestall WFYABTA for at least another tech. We should discuss what techs, if any, we want to avoid for that reason.

True. I typically avoid Hunting (not in this game), Archery and HBR.

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 01:03 AM
I have more foods for thought:
1. If our partner is Cathy and one of us has horses, I noticed that GAs lightbulb Communism after MilTrad, so we could think about NE early and spamming GLs, not worrying too much about the gene pool. Cathy could build some turbo-charged Cavalry. Or we build them and gift to her (does that work and turn them into Cossacks?). We know know we have enough food to run 6 scientists at pop10.
2. With all that food, is it maybe better to go Drama>Literature? Get an earlier pop explosion. FiveAces talked about trying that. Anyone tried?
EDIT: 3. I wonder if there's any manipulations we can do to increase the likelihood that Mansa bulbs Philosophy, assuming he's on our continent. Such as get him Writing a turn earlier. Avoid trading Philo prereq to others. Monitoring AIs to see who's getting non-GS :gp. DoWing selected AIs who seem to be likely to pop a GS...etc.

Gnejs
Apr 26, 2008, 01:13 AM
I think I am set to go now. But before I do I am going to make a final trial with the Pyramids track. I am doing this just to ensure that it is still a worse strategy even with all the food.

In the meantime, the rest of the team has another chance to chime in with suggestions on my PPP. :)

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 01:23 AM
I think I am set to go now. But before I do I am going to make a final trial with the Pyramids track. I am doing this just to ensure that it is still a worse strategy even with all the food.

In the meantime, the rest of the team has another chance to chime in with suggestions on my PPP. :)Judging from Gosha190's post, CRC is probably planning to do that. I was also thinking about that last night. Using the scientists for GSs definitely dovetails with Representation. Two problems: 1) How likely is it we lose the Pyramids? 2) Do we get our common war turns fast enough with the later Alphabet?

Gnejs
Apr 26, 2008, 01:33 AM
Judging from Gosha190's post, CRC is probably planning to do that. I was also thinking about that last night. Using the scientists for GSs definitely dovetails with Representation. Two problems: 1) How likely is it we lose the Pyramids? 2) Do we get our common war turns fast enough with the later Alphabet?

1) I got them in all my original test games, but we will see if I can get a similar completion date without BW.
2) I am going to try with skipping Fishing, but adding in Masonry and the Wheel instead. Haven't decided on the exact order. Worker first, of course. Probably this will lead to a 10-15t delay of Alphabet. We will make up for some of this by the immediate +2 happy cap and representation bonus.

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 02:36 AM
2) I am going to try with skipping Fishing, but adding in Masonry and the Wheel instead. Haven't decided on the exact order. Worker first, of course. Probably this will lead to a 10-15t delay of Alphabet. We will make up for some of this by the immediate +2 happy cap and representation bonus.
Even for pyramids I wouldn't skip fishing and also not do worker first. The crab net is the fastest food we can have.
The majority of the hammers will come when the capital is at a decent size.

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 02:40 AM
...Regarding the roster: There may well be a strategic element in the decision to assign a certain turnset to a certain person. However, this might lead to indesirable situations (for example, who would allow LC to play any turns at all, if given the opportunity to prevent it? :joke:).
I am glad to allow the captain to propose any roster he likes, and I will always approve his proposal. Once the roster is defined, though, I'd prefer to stick to it and allow everyone to play their complete turnset. IMO the fun element and the learning element are better off this way, even if the final result can suffer a bit.

I still think the better breakpoint would be AH-worker, where one might want to re-plan...

Regarding the AH breakpoint: I think we can accomplish this with LC's Mid Turn Break (~T21-22?). It's too far into the game for Gnejs. There are other breakpoints that are of similar importance, such as learning Writing and Alphabet. We will need to stop at these three occasions anyway, but I can't manage to fit the turn set lengths to them :cry: , so we'll have to rely on Mid Turn Set updates.

Then there's the aspect that jesusin brings up. We proved in the previous SGOTM that we could win without synchronizing the roster too aggressively, and I expect us to play in a similar way this time i.e. a bit tweaking but hopefully even less than previous game.

My original plan was that jesusin would reach alpha at the end of his turn set and let klarius handle the tech brokering. It now seems like jesusin will be our Tech Master, which means that we have to transfer all knowledge from klarius to jesusin. This is of course an excellent opportunity for the rest of us to learn a bit more, especially for Mitiu who will probably trade techs as well, but will require extra work from all of us.

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 02:46 AM
A small spreadsheet about how trade values vary with people know it.
A trade is possible if our value is greater or equal than their value.

I don't understand :blush: How come Mansa is willing to trade BW for Writing? Mansa will pay 250 gold for Writing, and require 330 gold for BW :confused:

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 02:53 AM
... Cathy could build some turbo-charged Cavalry. Or we build them and gift to her (does that work and turn them into Cossacks?)...

...Gnejs, I can think of a couple of options for the second warrior after he explores the N. Not sure if he'll need to fogbust yet, but you could camp him out on the N plains tile to prevent forest creep. 'Twould be painful to not be able to improve horses if we get them.

Erkon, could you please link your template on the first page (or did I miss it?).

Yes, Cavalry will turn into Cossacks if we gift them to Cathy.

Will a camped warrior prevent forest creep?

Will forest ever creep to a tile with unrevealed horsies?

You missed the link, or perhaps the compete post? :p

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 04:05 AM
My mind is running rampant. Here's another thought. In our Alpha bee-line, we get Writing many turns before the AIs. AIs far to the South will be trapped so we are free to steal our 2nd (...and 3rd? (...and 4th :crazyeye:)) worker without fear of reprisal, especially if we can decide which AI to attack early on. We can pick on a low-commerce AI, for example.

Now tell me what I'm forgetting.

EDIT: Gnejs when were you completing Writing relative to the worker build, when you went warrior-wb-wb-wkr?

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 04:14 AM
My original plan was that jesusin would reach alpha at the end of his turn set and let klarius handle the tech brokering. It now seems like jesusin will be our Tech Master, which means that we have to transfer all knowledge from klarius to jesusin. This is of course an excellent opportunity for the rest of us to learn a bit more, especially for Mitiu who will probably trade techs as well, but will require extra work from all of us.Okay, let's take it a step farther and turn it into a 'live apprenticeship.' Whoever gets to Alphabet immediately uploads the save (let's just hope we don't get any fkedup invitations to trade a tech in the IT) and we discuss/learn how to adress the situation, step by step, trade by trade, deal by deal (with every single step followed by a save and upload to the thread).

Because not getting all the techs in my challenge above meant, in my case, not getting Mysticism in the first round which screwed everything up, including not being able to bribe Hatty to DoW with Alpha.

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 04:22 AM
I don't understand :blush: How come Mansa is willing to trade BW for Writing? Mansa will pay 250 gold for Writing, and require 330 gold for BW :confused:
Everybody Mansa knows (besides us but that's already taken into account) has BW, so his price is in the all know column, which is just 250.

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 04:23 AM
My mind is running rampant. Here's another thought. In our Alpha bee-line, we get Writing many turns before the AIs. AIs far to the South will be trapped so we are free to steal our 2nd (...and 3rd? (...and 4th :crazyeye:)) worker without fear of reprisal, especially if we can decide which AI to attack early on. We can pick on a low-commerce AI, for example.

Now tell me what I'm forgetting.

EDIT: Gnejs when were you completing Writing relative to the worker build, when you went warrior-wb-wb-wkr?

You forget that all workers will be escorted :cry:

But if the opportunity arise, I thinks it's a good idea (against low-commerce AIs).

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 04:25 AM
Will a camped warrior prevent forest creep?

Will forest ever creep to a tile with unrevealed horsies?Mais oui, Monsieur.

Don't you remember the Smurkz SG6 complaints about their jungle-crept rice? It's one of the few times I remember that Gyathaar, as map creator, felt obliged to address players' concern with code and explanation (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6591359&postcount=1116).

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 04:31 AM
My mind is running rampant. Here's another thought. In our Alpha bee-line, we get Writing many turns before the AIs. AIs far to the South will be trapped so we are free to steal our 2nd (...and 3rd? (...and 4th :crazyeye:)) worker without fear of reprisal, especially if we can decide which AI to attack early on. We can pick on a low-commerce AI, for example.

Now tell me what I'm forgetting.

It's by no mean certain that the AIs in our game are such slowpokes. In fact even on my map I had the case once that Gandhi offered open borders before I had writing.

We also have to know first who our neighbors are. There are some who like dogpile wars very much (even in the overall friendly category).

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 04:32 AM
You forget that all workers will be escorted :cry:

But if the opportunity arise, I thinks it's a good idea (against low-commerce AIs).I remember lots of unescorted workers baring their sweaty muscles at my drooling warrior. And speaking of escorts, we wouldn't even have to escort any workers home... :D

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 04:36 AM
It's by no mean certain that the AIs in our game are such slowpokes. In fact even on my map I had the case once that Gandhi offered open borders before I had writing.

We also have to know first who our neighbors are. There are some who like dogpile wars very much (even in the overall friendly category).Fair enough. Even if we just steal 1 worker right before or at Alpha, it stills saves us the trouble of building it and it's good timing for pre-chopping or chopping the GLib, right?

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 04:39 AM
Okay, let's take it a step farther and turn it into a 'live apprenticeship.' Whoever gets to Alphabet immediately uploads the save (let's just hope we don't get any fkedup invitations to trade a tech in the IT) and we discuss/learn how to adress the situation, step by step, trade by trade, deal by deal (with every single step followed by a save and upload to the thread)...

I like, I like. Very MM'ish. I would then prefer everyone to do their homework and think how they would have addressed the trades once they get to see the save, else I'm afraid klarius will present a complete plan that is flawless and the peanut gallery just nods :lol:

Perhaps it will take a long time, which may be a drawback.

One other significant drawback is that we must ensure we don't accidentally cheat (i.e. accidentally perform any irreversible actions).

Is there any drawbacks to deny a trade IBT? They won't demand any tech, so the trade would be repeatable? I guess there are factors, but are they significant?

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 04:48 AM
Mais oui, Monsieur.

Don't you remember the Smurkz SG6 complaints about their jungle-crept rice? It's one of the few times I remember that Gyathaar, as map creator, felt obliged to address players' concern with code and explanation (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6591359&postcount=1116).
Well, but forest will not creep on horses.
It's only possible if the resource can naturally appear on the feature.
Rice can be in jungle, but horses can't be in forest.
if ((getBonusType() == NO_BONUS) || (GC.getBonusInfo(getBonusType()).isFeature(iI)))

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 04:50 AM
I like, I like. Very MM'ish. I would then prefer everyone to do their homework and think how they would have addressed the trades once they get to see the save, else I'm afraid klarius will present a complete plan that is flawless and the peanut gallery just nods :lol:

Perhaps it will take a long time, which may be a drawback.Well, we could just set a time period when anyone who wants to joins in and we do it fast. I think we're all in pretty much the same time zone (not sure about Morpheus11).

I'm hoping klarius will present his flawless plan and the peanut gallery just nods...:lol:. just kidding. I get your point. That was implicit in my idea. You're not going to learn as much if you don't try the exercise yourself first. I'm sure klarius will be so kind as to put his plan in spoilers... ;)

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 05:24 AM
Well, but forest will not creep on horses.
It's only possible if the resource can naturally appear on the feature.
Rice can be in jungle, but horses can't be in forest.
if ((getBonusType() == NO_BONUS) || (GC.getBonusInfo(getBonusType()).isFeature(iI))) Works for me. :goodjob:

Maybe that's what's messing jesusin up. Did you hear that? Your horse can't appear in the forest, only out in the open. :cool:

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 05:56 AM
I just tried a pyramids variant on klarius-LC map.
Gandhi was first to writing (T37) and Hatty declared T47.
4 axes, 2 spears and 2 archers coming from India against my 1 warrior before I even made OB with her.

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 07:29 AM
I got the pyramids pretty fast but ALpha was too late to get a DoW with Hatty. There are a lot of choices for how to play the pyramids. Not sure what's best.

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 09:53 AM
I have a problem. With klarius korner. Every second post from klarius contains nuggets of wisdom. What shall I do? Link them all (as I started to do) or copy all relevant text from klarius into a bigger post? The latter requires less effort from me, while the current system enables tracking directly to the context. Please advice me...

Now to something completely different: I read somewhere a post that described the inherit friendliness between AI. It was a picture with different colors for each AI and they were sorted in columns from -2 to 7 or something. Does anyone remember that post? I'm afraid it was lost in the crash a while ago / transition to a new server. I read it in a GOTM-thread (spoiler/pre-game/results). The post explained why certain AI are annoyed with each other at +1 (regardless of random element).

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 10:16 AM
Now to something completely different: I read somewhere a post that described the inherit friendliness between AI. It was a picture with different colors for each AI and they were sorted in columns from -2 to 7 or something. Does anyone remember that post? I'm afraid it was lost in the crash a while ago / transition to a new server. I read it in a GOTM-thread (spoiler/pre-game/results). The post explained why certain AI are annoyed with each other at +1 (regardless of random element).
Well, I don't remember this post. But I did a spread sheet to this effect for SGOTM 3.
I will update this once we know which leaders are our neighbors.
I attach the old version :).

Gnejs
Apr 26, 2008, 11:02 AM
I got the pyramids pretty fast but ALpha was too late to get a DoW with Hatty. There are a lot of choices for how to play the pyramids. Not sure what's best.

Made a try on klarius modified map, never working or trading the horse as usual.

Pyramids T39 via heavily emphasizing production: worker-warrior-Pyramids-Library. Research was Masonry-Wheel-Hunting-AH-Writing (T44)-Alpha (T63)
Nobody had Alpha, Cyrus didn't have writing. T64 pops a GE. T66 Gandhi has Alphabet.
PA with Hattie 640 AD (T142). She is the worlds score leader by a huge margin having 6 cities. We have a huge tech lead: Constitution, Liberalism, Printing Press, Astronomy, Chemistry, Corporation, over the closest rivals on our continent. Everybody else is even more backwards.
When emphasizing science I bring in 419 beakers in Beijing, emphasizing production gives 360 beakers and 36 raw hammers.

Some observations:
Delaying Alphabet causes the research pace of the whole continent to slow down. Even though I was almost 20 turns late I could still trade for all the basic techs. I could not bribe Hattie into a common war though, but it was no problem to get the 40 war turns in time for Communism anyway.

Conclusion:
I am not impressed by the benefit of the Pyramids. The happiness bonus is temporary and doesn't matter after Globe Theatre. The research bonus doesn't seem to make up for the 18 turn delay of Alphabet, and we will anyway get Constitution for Representation when we get the PA or soon thereafter. The early culture boost is nice though. :)

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 01:58 PM
Do we know when we get PA using klarius' modified game without the horses?

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 03:14 PM
There are two reasons for sticking to the current PPP (no pyramids). The first is the risk aspect, such as the risk of someone DoWing us, or the risk to miss the pyramids. Even if the risk is manageable, the consequence from either is that we may miss out on laurels.

The second reason is the timing. I think beakers earned early are much more valuable than beakers earned late. I've updated post#4 with a Turn vs Date list to show the year for each turn. Assume we run 6 specialists on average from 1000 BC to 1200 AD (constitution), then we gain 105*6*3=1890 base beakers = ~4000 real beakers, which is very close to the cost of Communism, and equals approximately 10 turns of research in Gnejs' game. I don't think that is enough, considering the overall slower tech pace.

My conclusion is that we stick to the PPP unless someone comes up with more favorable results than Gnejs.

LowtherCastle
Apr 26, 2008, 03:39 PM
Well, 640 ad is a good result. So beaker up or down, something worked very well in Gnejs' approach. klarius' 450ad result was with the horses. So it strikes me as more complicated than just beaker analysis. One diffference that stands out to me is that the current PPP approach appears to rely more on trading with AIs so that when we get our PA, other AIs also have CHemistry. We beat them down only because we know how to use them better. Gnejs' approach appears to slow down their research early on and not be so dependent on them toward the end. That's intriguing.

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 04:13 PM
Regarding the AH breakpoint: I think we can accomplish this with LC's Mid Turn Break (~T21-22?). It's too far into the game for Gnejs. There are other breakpoints that are of similar importance, such as learning Writing and Alphabet. We will need to stop at these three occasions anyway, but I can't manage to fit the turn set lengths to them :cry: , so we'll have to rely on Mid Turn Set updates...

Doh! I just noted that AH&Worker is on T20. This is of course very suitable for a breaking point for first turn set :blush: This would also give LC a better opportunity for planning his MM & worker action.

In my test game with my map I get Writing on T29, Library on ~T42 and Alpha on T45 (pop5, one angry)

Gnejs
Apr 26, 2008, 05:22 PM
Do we know when we get PA using klarius' modified game without the horses?

Just tried this. Started great, was able to trade for basically everything without giving up Alpha. But then things went bad. First of all there was no religion founded on our continent until Confu, which almost everyone had except Hattie who founded christianity. No pacifism, less great people. Even more annoying was the fact that I popped 4 artists... :mad:
Got the PA very late, around 820 AD. Random also had it that Hattie had 5 cities this time.

Well, 640 ad is a good result. So beaker up or down, something worked very well in Gnejs' approach. klarius' 450ad result was with the horses. So it strikes me as more complicated than just beaker analysis. One diffference that stands out to me is that the current PPP approach appears to rely more on trading with AIs so that when we get our PA, other AIs also have CHemistry. We beat them down only because we know how to use them better. Gnejs' approach appears to slow down their research early on and not be so dependent on them toward the end. That's intriguing.

Here is a save a couple of turns after the PA, when the research has catched up.

175510


This time the Pyramids strategy gave the best result. But there is so much random in these results that I don't know what to believe. Could anyone else run a couple of games and see how the two strategies compare? Perhaps we should also modify another of the test maps.

PS. Both these games are a little bit sloppy once I have reached Alpha. There is definitely room for improvement.

Gnejs
Apr 26, 2008, 05:25 PM
Doh! I just noted that AH&Worker is on T20. This is of course very suitable for a breaking point for first turn set :blush: This would also give LC a better opportunity for planning his MM & worker action.

Are you saying I should go 20 turns now? :crazyeye:

FiveAces
Apr 26, 2008, 10:24 PM
Is there any drawbacks to deny a trade IBT? They won't demand any tech, so the trade would be repeatable? I guess there are factors, but are they significant?

Back online now. Yes - I've found they will offer you say BW for writ IBT, but if you deny and then propose that same trade during your turn they will not take it - probably b/c they but some beakers into writ that turn and it's not a "fair value" anymore.

EDIT: they will also do this with feudalism for CS. This one should always be denied. You can easily make the trade later for CS+ only 90g. Other than that, they won't be coming at us with "reasonable" IBT trade offers we need to consider - unless maybe for drama/lit, since I've not usually held these early and don't have much experience there.

EDIT2: I think an early (pre-alpha) question we need to answer is if we build GLib, how do we get poly? By trade or self research? That affects what we research after alpha unless it is available then. In my experience unless Mansa has it, you can't trade for it until Parth is finished. And Mansa doesn't start with Myst, so hindu will likely be founded before he starts poly (assume he tries for med first) so he won't get it quickly.

RANDOM THOUGHT: Is there any benefit to building a bunch of cho-ku-nu's?

klarius
Apr 26, 2008, 11:15 PM
Pyramids or not, both can lead to good results.
But pyramids delays alphabet by 15-20 turns.
Alphabet is the point where we actively can start to control diplomacy. Even if we cannot get shared war directly we can get people up to pleased by gifts to avoid wars.
Pyramids greatly increases the risk to be DoWed before alphabet and by that lose early.
I have a record now of about 20% losing early with pyramids versus 5% w/o.
So, I would go pyramids only with BW and the chance to build some strong military. That delays alphabet even more, which I don't like at all.

FiveAces
Apr 26, 2008, 11:26 PM
I don't think the risk/reward on the Pyramids is worth it either. I'd rather take a chance on GLib - I don't think we need it - we could build early GT instead and grow faster, not research Lit and get to comm in a decent amount of time - but the extra sci and GS points makes it a better use of hammers IMO.

Erkon
Apr 26, 2008, 11:38 PM
Here my updated map (with Beijing settled me thinks, and warrior not moved).

I got Alpha on T45 but could not trade for BW. All AIs were known at this time.

LowtherCastle
Apr 27, 2008, 02:43 AM
I think I agree. I expect some good team will go for Pyramids, and if all goes well for them and for us, they might beat our finish date. On the other hand, if we play really well, especially our end-game, we might be able to even overcome that. I don't think the number or strength of AI defenders will make a difference if we use our cats/cannons cleverly. My biggest fear is that if Railroading becomes a factor, the first to railroad wins, hands down.

That said, I'm in favor of the 'sure' route that we've carefully analyzed. I'm comfortable with Gnejs playing a turn or two... ;)

klarius
Apr 27, 2008, 02:44 AM
B

EDIT2: I think an early (pre-alpha) question we need to answer is if we build GLib, how do we get poly? By trade or self research? That affects what we research after alpha unless it is available then. In my experience unless Mansa has it, you can't trade for it until Parth is finished. And Mansa doesn't start with Myst, so hindu will likely be founded before he starts poly (assume he tries for med first) so he won't get it quickly.

I never have problems to trade poly 2-5 turns after alphabet. And not from Mansa. But I'm giving out alpha aggressively so the AI start to trade also.
BTW Mansa doesn't help for the Parthenon problem. That's the one reason even Mansa will not trade. The problem with the others is usually that some build Parthenon and others don't trade because it's not spread wide enough (most will trade only if 3-4 have the tech).
I still have best results with globe immediately after GLib, so I always start drama in the meantime.

Latest result on my (LC modified and changed the horses to copper) map: 640AD PA with Hatty. Alphabet path. GLib then theater (some time with 10% culture) globe.
First shared war only at CoL. Hatty snuffed Monte then Alex, but after that I needed a war on the other continent for the final points, because everybody was Jewish.
No pacifism and only 3 scientists in total.
BTW this time I could have traded up to military tradition and divine right, if I would have been delayed by a GA instead of GS. That means some research could have come back by using the GA on communism, instead of the GS on sci method (+GLib and monasteries expiring later).

Gnejs
Apr 27, 2008, 03:00 AM
I never have problems to trade poly 2-5 turns after alphabet. And not from Mansa. But I'm giving out alpha aggressively so the AI start to trade also.
BTW Mansa doesn't help for the Parthenon problem. That's the one reason even Mansa will not trade. The problem with the others is usually that some build Parthenon and others don't trade because it's not spread wide enough (most will trade only if 3-4 have the tech).
I still have best results with globe immediately after GLib, so I always start drama in the meantime.

Latest result on my (LC modified and changed the horses to copper) map: 640AD PA with Hatty. Alphabet path. GLib then theater (some time with 10% culture) globe.
First shared war only at CoL. Hatty snuffed Monte then Alex, but after that I needed a war on the other continent for the final points, because everybody was Jewish.
No pacifism and only 3 scientists in total.
BTW this time I could have traded up to military tradition and divine right, if I would have been delayed by a GA instead of GS. That means some research could have come back by using the GA on communism, instead of the GS on sci method (+GLib and monasteries expiring later).

Could you post a save from 640 AD so we can compare the AI tech level vs. my Pyramids game?

klarius
Apr 27, 2008, 03:25 AM
Could you post a save from 640 AD so we can compare the AI tech level vs. my Pyramids game?
Here you go.

FiveAces
Apr 27, 2008, 03:49 AM
I never have problems to trade poly 2-5 turns after alphabet. And not from Mansa. But I'm giving out alpha aggressively so the AI start to trade also.

That's the answer - I'm holding alpha out of habit to slow them down unless can I get something good for it. We'll have Lit/drama to trade early in lieu of alpha for HR, calendar, currency (maybe). Let's follow your suggestion. GLib should mean we still get Liberalism 1st without difficulty.

BTW Mansa doesn't help for the Parthenon problem. That's the one reason even Mansa will not trade. The problem with the others is usually that some build Parthenon and others don't trade because it's not spread wide enough (most will trade only if 3-4 have the tech).

I think though that he will only hold poly for his "reasons" if he's actually building Parth, which with only 2 cities he (probably) won't do unless he has marble? Not that it really matters though.

I still have best results with globe immediately after GLib, so I always start drama in the meantime.

I support this as long as our initial trader will ensure we get poly early.

I'm ok w/ Gnejs playing a couple turns too. Maybe we'll meet our neighbors? Anybody want to wager a guess? I'm thinking we only have 2 - Liz and Ghandi.

Also, the post-settle screenshot is interesting. Nobody will settle to our immediate W, so no culture pressure there, and we've got a nice mountain blockade, only broken by a hill where we can fortify a defender (in a fort if we do capture a bunch of workers - maybe I'll actually build one!). Gyanthaar is definitely giving us a fighting chance if we're DOW'd.

Finally - just from what we see, the AI won't settle close to our initial borders, so we're not likely to get -1 for close borders AND the neighbors likely won't have sufficient border tiles to be bribed cheaply into war against us.

klarius
Apr 27, 2008, 04:02 AM
Finally - just from what we see, the AI won't settle close to our initial borders, so we're not likely to get -1 for close borders AND the neighbors likely won't have sufficient border tiles to be bribed cheaply into war against us.
Don't hold your breath for no near settlement. It's a crowded map. There can be cities SW as well as SE.
And with sailing or open borders maybe also W.
The AI has no problem to settle pretty close as long as there are resources to get in their fat cross. And they don't care if it's so that they will never win the culture battle.