There has been alot of discussion lately about the tech path and were we are going. Daveshack of the tribal faction (among others) wants us to go after code of laws. While this is a critical tech in the long run. He is challenging the Philosophers faction leaning to wards researching Archery/Iron/Myst.

While it may not be in that order. I would like to hear the input of people in what we should research. I choose not to set up a poll, because i think this issue should be less about politics and more about reason and logic.

The stated goal of the triad is to make war against Spain and capture her cities. We cannot afford to hold on to the spoils of such a war under the excessive maintenance costs that having so many cities would introduce. We're talking about building 3 cities, and capturing 3-4, giving an empire size of 6-7. At this size, we need at least 3 of the cities to have courthouses in order to be able to afford the city maintenance.

There has been talk of forgoing Confucianism because we can capture the Spanish holy city and get religion that way. This overlooks the idea of having two religions and spreading both to all our cities. If we have two religions and build two shrines, we offset 2gpt per city in maintenance, allowing a larger empire. It is not too late to get Confucianism, if we go directly to it.

This discussion is not about politics, it is about strategy. There is no strategic value for the Archery/Iron/Myst tech combo. We have bronze, all we need to do is quickly build a city where we can take it. This reduces the need for iron, until we get the rest of the techs needed for Samurai. Mysticism is already on the CoL path, so it's likely to be researched either way. Whether we do archery before or after CoL is of little meaning if our military plans are offensive in nature. Archers help us only if we expect to be defending cities, and horse archers have an advantage over chariots generally when facing catapults in place of axemen. Construction is far away, so the horse archer's strength is muted.

My argument is one of logic. The path I support has advantages over the other suggested paths.

Another point to go Mysticism would be that a founded city would be faster to culturepop, therefore being able to settle it with Copper in the outer ring, if the spot is better :food:-,:hammers: or :commerce:-wise. And with horses and copper, we do not need either Iron Working or Archery just yet.

Mysticism: no dilemma, both sides want this.
Archery: we may plan an offensive war, but let's not forget the barbarians shall we
Iron Working: For me personally not an immediate must. We can do with Iron Working after CoL.
CoL: Long run very valuable tech.

Reality check / Roleplay:
Not many governments think of long term goals in the real world. They all want to get re-elected. However CoL is a very valuable tech in the long run, why should any government invest in something when it only benefits governments coming after the current one. Iron Working is one of immediate impact, unlocking Swordmen and Iron locations, and is a typical warmonger tech [which is also a part why Provo is choosing this tech, staying in character of being a Warlord Faction member].

Another point to go Mysticism would be that a founded city would be faster to culturepop, therefore being able to settle it with Copper in the outer ring, if the spot is better -, or -wise. And with horses and copper, we do not need either Iron Working or Archery just yet.

Diamondeye, we have libraries for that

My opinion: CoL gameplay wise. IW roleplay wise.

Oh, and a little PS: I don't tolerate rebellion ;)

I think it is good for our intel analysis as well, to know where things are. This impacts military balance, future war objectives, accessible production for cities as well as potential for iron-based wonders or not.

A good way to handle the present situation, is to research Archery and Mysticism first, since there is broad consensus about it, and then have a new technology discussion once we know more. This is the balanced, not the "in-character" rabid warlord Provo talking. I am playing this as an entertainment game, not a reenactment of a session from C-Span, as I suspect some do here :D

Anyhow, IW is not a bad choice, but we can take Archery and Mysticism first.

We really should not let Barbarians kill us off.

First of all, the invasion plan is longterm. By the time we do have the combo done, and have taken over spain we will have a closer shot to get CoL. We will research it when we need to, its not good to get a building your not going to use for awhile, unless you want to go through a period of anarchy and toss a former regime. Also do you honestly think facing the religious civs in our world that we are going to be the first to CoL, on monarchy, i think the chances are minimal and not high enough to soley justify an early rush to CoL. Yes we are going to have 6ish civs in a not so far distant future. but by the time we get there we will easily have researched all three of those techs and probably more, very good chance some will be prereqs for CoL. Agian why go straight for a tech that is not needed so much for this era of smaller largely undeveloped cities.

On the Iron working issue, firstly it is going to take awhile for us to even connect with bronze not to mention that axemen are a very shortermed infantry solution. They have lesser strength then axemen and while they have a strong bonus agianst infrantry there bonus is negated agiianst archers-horsemen etc. I think if we are planning an offensive war it would be better to build a unit that is stronger in general ((6 strength) and that has a bonus agianst cities which we are planning on taking, coupled with horsemen we be formidable to any bronze working units or archers we encounter. Knowing where iron is early can help us prevent spain from acquiring iron. Which will insure longterm supramacy. Enough said about that.

While you are correct that horse archers have an advantage agianst catapults the fact that we have a classical era unit in the bronze age is an advantage in itself, horsemen have a high strength rating and 2 movement rating. To say their strength is muted is ignorant at best. The fact is they are shock troops and have the speed to surprise a nation and take it off guard.

I think the idea that represents best why i argue agianst CoL tech line is that it is very longterm goal requiring many techs just to research it. This isn't very fluid, and we may find ourselves middle of it knowing we need to divert. Is it worth neglecting defence and potentialy lucrative exspansion opportunity for a religion we probably won't get, buildings we will build later, and a chance for the minority to throw down the present govt.

While we will pursue many of preceding techs to CoL we don't want to tie ourselves down. Theres still a lot we don't know about our opponents and even this war plan is tentative.


Lastly you said that archers are not neccassary unless you need to defend from someone. This comment is interesting at best. I would argue that the AI senses weakness and chooses the civ that is weakest to invade. Also barbarians are always a threat. This iisn't noble level. In monarch we are required to be alot more careful for potential threats. The time is now to defend our cities and our future.

I think the most wise middle-ground is Archery and Mysticism. Aluminum Knight himself used the argument of Archery now as the thing that made Paradise Hills the chosen site, due to self defense. Please let us respect AKs reasoning and apply that. We also need archery for Horseman Archers, so I do not really understand Daveshacks aversion for Archery, now that he argued FOR Horseman Archers and AGAINST Archers????? :(

After Mysticism we reassess our goals once again, it may even be we are going a route we did not think of, due to in-game developments.

I agree with many here that archery shoyuld be the next tech, more for horse archers than regular archers.

The reason for COL immediate in my opinion is for the religion. The courthouses will be usefull eventualy, but that is later. If we plan to get spain's cities, which I think we should, then it is a good tech to research while we are at war with her.

Since we can build libraries,I do not see trhe need for mysticism yet

IW could give us a new unit if lucky and effect settlement plans. Moderately usefull short term.


so I would go Archery, IW, Mysticism. then COL

Both paths have merit, but must have fit with new sites.
Because IW only allows swordmen and BW axes and spears
If the relevant resource is connected.
So, to defend the metals research and also a dye overlaping
city looks strange IMHO.
Best regards,

Reality check / Roleplay:
Not many governments think of long term goals in the real world. They all want to get re-elected. However CoL is a very valuable tech in the long run, why should any government invest in something when it only benefits governments coming after the current one. Iron Working is one of immediate impact, unlocking Swordmen and Iron locations, and is a typical warmonger tech [which is also a part why Provo is choosing this tech, staying in character of being a Warlord Faction member].

I can clearly see the perspective in this; and you should be able to see why I am pointing at CoL and Mysticism then.

Diamondeye, we have libraries for that

and what are they? 3 times the :hammers: compared to Monuments?
And a religion could provide that crucial early culture pop...

My opinion: CoL gameplay wise. IW roleplay wise.

Why IW roleplaywise? I'd say we believe we have the best weapons there is, while we don't have any kind of laws or systematizing of society. Priesthood would probably cover this, but CoL is definately worth it RPwise, also because of the religion.

A religion could indeed provide that crucial early culture pop, but that doesn't say we have to found one.

IW roleplaywise because i'm leader of Warlord Faction and thus roleplaywise i need to support warmongering techs. Also, governments in the 'real world' always go for short term solutions by which they will be remembered, thus again: IW is short term, CoL is long term. Therefore: IW is more close to my roleplay part since the real benefits of CoL are not for the current Prime Faction/Coalition, but for the next ones.

Edit-addon: I'd rather be remembered at the end of the demogame as "part of the coalition that conquered Spain" than "part of the coalition that made the game easier for Faction .<whoever>."

I support Archery -> Mysticism. I think that after that is too far ahead to call right now. We could continue on our way to CoL, or grab IW at that point. Roleplay-wise, like Diamondeye said, our civilization is sorely lacking in laws and guidance for our people. We cannot continue to forge ahead in military techs, or we're no better than the barbarians!

Regardless, we must research Archery now. We need it for Horse Archers, and we need it for barb defense while our army is out conquering Spain for the glory of Arete.

My 2 cents. I think going for CoL is too expensive. The Gods have blessed us with 3 free techs so lets not go crazy heading right for the most expensive tech of the moment and lose our lead. Assuming we settle the copper/ivory city (which I am in favor of) then we will have War Elephants (8 strength). This more than makes up for a Swordsmans base city attack. We also have axes to counter spearmen. Horse Archers will be a benefit but are not a necessity at the moment.

Economically the war will be costly so more important than courthouses we need to build cottages. The sooner the better. Don't get me wrong courthouses are important but they are not the first building I construct in a new or conquered city. So I favor some cheap and very crucial techs like Pottery, Mysticism, Archery and Sailing over a long term, expensive, semi-important, gut-wrenchingly expensive tech like CoL for now.

War Elephants and Axes will give us Barcelona,
Barcelona will give us our Religion.IMHO ;)

Archery->Mysticism, then perhaps Pottery before going CoL (or IW, let's see how it turns out) would be fine for me. I have no problems in having the only religion we have by conquering. I would dare to mention that it might be proper if Protectors got the Holy City when we take it, but that is merely speculation. Let's get Archery and then see how things turn out. I mean, we could Oracle slingshot it aswell...

for war elephants we need construction, which we do not have, right?

This is why we need archery. We should be able to take out hatty with either horse archers and axes or horse archers and swords.

First of all the only way we can decide this is by saying are we going to war with Spain, there seems to be a concenus on that so then, why archery and MYS. I can personally see the arguement for iron working, i suspect there may well be iron nearby the capital seeing the relative distance the coppers are from us and swordsmen are very useful against archers in cities pre catapults. horse archers have a -10% strength loss when assualting cities, meaning a well promoted archer in a biggish city would defeat it.
So archery doesn't really give us too much as an edge. CoL is going to be very important if only for the courthouses so i would suggest, that if we agree to get the religion from Spain that we research IW and then beeline to CoL (it will take time to build up a force and with any luck enough time for CoL to be researched)

Archery: we may plan an offensive war, but let's not forget the barbarians shall we

Axemen are far better and less likely to die, we would only need one in each area, where i would feel worried (for lack of a better, easy to spell world :blush:) if we only had one archer covering an area.

First of all the only way we can decide this is by saying are we going to war with Spain, there seems to be a concenus on that so then, why archery and MYS. I can personally see the arguement for iron working, i suspect there may well be iron nearby the capital seeing the relative distance the coppers are from us and swordsmen are very useful against archers in cities pre catapults. horse archers have a -10% strength loss when assualting cities, meaning a well promoted archer in a biggish city would defeat it.
So archery doesn't really give us too much as an edge. CoL is going to be very important if only for the courthouses so i would suggest, that if we agree to get the religion from Spain that we research IW and then beeline to CoL (it will take time to build up a force and with any luck enough time for CoL to be researched)


I think it would be a huge mistake not to get archery ASAP.
I think you have to much of a focus on using horse archers as city raiders and not as counterattack units and pillagers.
With 2 movement points and some roads, they can take out pretty much anything spain will throw at us and defend our resources while based in cities. This allows us to have less units in our cities on defense and not waste units on guarding stratigic resources (our future copper and horses). They also will be the first wave and will take out the enemies stratigic resources.

If we want to use horse archers to attack cityies we need to promote thewm witrh the flank promotion, this makes them immune to first stirkes and allows them to withdraw from combat, make them function in a similar way to a catapult but without collaterial damage. I do not neccessarily recoomend doing this unless desperate, but it does work.

IMO, we're wasting our pop of HBR if we don't tech Archery and build Horse Archers, which are higher strength than anything the AI will throw at us right now and more mobile.

I agree. We should research archery, pop out a couple of horse archers and lay waste to spain's improvements ASAP. Weaken them now and they will be easy to conquer later.

for war elephants we need construction, which we do not have, right?

This is why we need archery. We should be able to take out hatty with either horse archers and axes or horse archers and swords.


Yes it seems I have overlooked the obvious. Construction is too far away IMO to have any effect on the hatty war. So I would say Archery/pottery/IW/Mysticism. Maybe it would be wise to get Alphabet instead of Myst as we are preparing for war to trade and get some religious techs from Lincoln pre-invasion. Hatty and Lincoln are pleased with each other so once we declare war on Hatty we will probably not able to trade with Lincoln until we get on better terms.

Researching a little along each path is the road to disaster. I almost never win games that don't involve going deep on one tech path, either directly to CoL, Theology, or IW.

We lost DG1 with a tech path exactly like the one you're trying to play here. We must have a plan, not an all you can eat buffet.

I just want to point out that there is a reason that many of us didn't want to play on a high difficulty....

My above statement is based on my experience at noble. This game is 2-3 levels above my comfort zone. ;)

Wait, that means it may be even worse than what I'm used to... :eek:

You really lose on Noble if you don't beeline one of those 3 techs??

Maybe not every time, but more often than not. However it's a pretty small sample compared to the games I do follow one of the paths. ;)

Can't say if it's because the times I can't follow one of these paths are starts that would have been a lost cause anyway...

And forgot to mention the beeline to optics when on an island, but that one doesn't matter here.

I get confucianism, the oracle, and liberalism about 70% of the time. If I remember to do them, I get economics and physics first too. It's like getting philosophy 1st in C3C. I have also managed to found 6 of 7 religions several times. Now if I could just learn the proper timing of warfare, and stop getting behind on the power graph...

Code of Laws is the single most overrated tech in the early game, IMO. I'd rather have say Currency, Iron Working or Alphabet. Mysticism is always a good tech to get before or just after you settle your second city. I don't really like archery, since it's not really needed as we can build chariots.

Maybe not every time, but more often than not. However it's a pretty small sample compared to the games I do follow one of the paths. ;)

Can't say if it's because the times I can't follow one of these paths are starts that would have been a lost cause anyway...

And forgot to mention the beeline to optics when on an island, but that one doesn't matter here.

You're beelining the wrong techs, currency's free traderoute does more for you economy than a courthouse, and it doesn't cost a boatload of hammers.

There are many ways to win. One is early war, which seems to be the direction we are going, which I agree with. We can gain an advantage by taking another civs improved capital location. This is a tried and true technbique on higher levels.

That combined with our resource grab to the north should give us an advantage over all other civs in terms of production and # of resources. This will give us the advantage in happiness and health cap. We may run through a phase of slower research, but our larger land area will let us eventual catch up and overtake the others. We can trade or sell our excess resources. When we go to war we will be able to build units quicker.


One can also beeline to much and spend to much time on a tech that is not overly usefull. I have made this mistake before. A couple of the lower techs are neccesary. Archery for Horse Archers (which we can produce right now with the tech) is a must for us right now. Pottery and Mysticism will be neccesary in the near future. The one of these that worries me here is pottery. We do not need it now, but we need to not foirget it and get it when our workers have finished the early resource improvments and are ready to build cottages.

I think Dutchfire is right about COL. It is not worth the price right now. I agree with him that after the neccesarey lower techs we need (archery is the main one) that mathmatics and the tech it opens up may be the direction to go for higher research.

Now if I could just learn the proper timing of warfare, and stop getting behind on the power graph...

In my opinion the best time to go to war is when you have a technological advantage in soldiery. We have (or will have) that now if we get horse archers and axe/swords. This is why i think we must go to war soon.

You're beelining the wrong techs, currency's free traderoute does more for you economy than a courthouse, and it doesn't cost a boatload of hammers.

It's not just the courthouse, but the shrine as well, which you have to be first to get as a builder. Granted, not such a big deal for warmongers if local civs all have religions, but I'm not much of a warmonger. :)

I do prioritize currency, just after CoL. How else did you think I was getting to economics first so often? :p

In my opinion the best time to go to war is when you have a technological advantage in soldiery. We have (or will have) that now if we get horse archers and axe/swords. This is why i think we must go to war soon.

Against an opponent with religion to boost city defenses, I've never been able to beat archers in cities without having either a 4:1 unit advantage (still risky) or catapults. What do you do, take a lot of chances at 25% or worse odds?

This isn't a game we can just restart if our whole army dies attacking the 1st city.

You cannot think of war as only about taking cities.

War one- We take workers, pillage and take out any foolish units that are not in capitol. We may take city # 2 of Spain at this point if they have one and we like it.

War two- We have cats or spies or we have samuri. We take out a weakened feeble state.

The only disadvantage to two wars is we get a -2 modifier with Lincoln instead of a -1.

So you want two wars, one of pillaging and one of conquering?

The only disadvantage to two wars is we get a -2 modifier with lincoln instead of a -1.

And possibly a lot more war awareness.

You cannot think of war as only about taking cities.


Hmm, the other argument against CoL is that we'll take a religion instead of founding our own. But isn't it kinda hard to take a religion without taking a city? In which case we're delaying religion until at least construction, maybe longer?

Sorry, I don't get it. Doesn't seem like the left and right hands are in sync here... :mischief:

Um this is all speculation. I think the point that Blastoid is making that we get more then just cities in this war and that it will involve more then just siege. That being said if we were to be in the state of war with the spainiards, the warlords faction would be running the army as that is their role in the coalition. What they say as far as war goes is more what will actually happen.

Exactly my point! If all the people were deciding all the issues as a whole, and not just a select few deciding individual issues, then we'd all be in sync.

Exactly my point! If all the people were deciding all the issues as a whole, and not just a select few deciding individual issues, then we'd all be in sync.

A select few deciding individual issues is exactly what our government, despotism, is supposed to be.

AK, hear hear. And I am fine with our historical simulation here.

How many people does this game need to survive?

I see about 10 active. Not enough IMO, by far. It's fine for you to say that running an exclusive club is great, being the ones running the club, but I think over half of the people who signed up for the game have already left.

I think you have a point here, I think alot of stuff needs to be restructered as far as participation goes. But its not true that the coalition is to blame for being exsclusive. We frequnetly discuss big issues, we have delegated power, we also have shown excellent skills as explorers and micromanagers.

I agree that we need to change the way gameplay is done. Which is why I am making a research consul that provides information to the Triad leadership and gives concrete analysis about gameplay issues. The winner of the Best Turnplayer poll will head this up and give the triad good reports of what they advice for the future turnsets.

I think that we all have a bias towards democracy as that is what we are raised to think is the ideal, but in this game we are managing this game akin to picked civic. Currently this is a despotic government. So yes it is going to me authoritiarian, and yes we are trying new things so that those not in the ruling coalition have power and influence, but it is going to takes efforts from both sides. The thing is metagame and actual gameplay are connected, and so just like the guys who started factions and sold their idea, anyone is welcome to try a similar thing and see what support they can get.

Rest assured, my comments are not out of ill will towards any individual or group. I genuinely fear for the game itself, and would fail in my obligation if I didn't make suggestions as to the cause and ideas for potential improvements. :)

There was discussion amongst the philosophers of advertising "apprentice" positions that we hadn't filled to independants. It was a very good suggestion I thought we had agreed on but I haven't seen any evidence of it occuring. It would certainly help the game

In my opinion this all boils down to do we want to declare war with Spain and at a minimum take at least one holy city she will have by then (Spain my very well have more holy cities by the time war starts):

If so, go for war. Definately reserach Archery & Iron Works first.

But if not, we need to be beeling towards some religion to found now. Easyist appears to be Confucism.

There's no need to actually have Code of Laws before conquering this early on.
The war with Spain may very well result in Spain handing over that tech among other possibilites.
And even if not we can always research it right after the war ends if all else fails.

I think that we all have a bias towards democracy as that is what we are raised to think is the ideal,

First i will quote Churchill, Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried, and second, only democracy allows all players in the game to have some input and therefore feel apart of this game. With the system we have a lot of us feel push out, like we are not needed.

The following was posted in the "gameplay advancement of knowledge" thread, but I think it is also applicable here. Normally I try to avoid posting identical material in two places. Oh, wait -- it's not identical because of this preamble. :)

Part of this discussion hinges on how the strategy is defined. Contrast the following:

1. The strategy of the Arethan people is to become the religious power in the world and achieve total victory by being elected religious leader. All actions the nation takes will support this strategy.

2. The Arethan people desire to found a religion. The tech path will follow the shortest path to techs which found religions, until one is founded or all religions are taken by other civilizations.

3. The Arethan people desire to found a religion as one of many national goals. Since a religion is available and may be likely to be founded if we follow the Code of Laws path, we will follow that path until Confucianism is founded (by ourselves or another), at which time the goal shall either be achieved or abandoned.

4. The Arethan people desire to found a religion as one of many national goals. Since a religion is available and may be likely to be founded if we follow the Code of Laws path, we will start along that path. Since no strategy is complete without accounting for unforseen events, we may abandon this path at any time as circumstances merit.

5. Strategy is for game players, and this is a role playing game. Let's decide tech by tech, with no regard to any cohesive goal, or choose a set of techs for a short term goal without regard to the long term consequences.

I support #4, and have not said otherwise. Others seem to be supporting #5, which in my opinion is the worst possible way to do it. There have been instances in the past where people have advocated strategies like #1 or #2, which I have consistently opposed, every time.

Let's approach tech with a flexible, but longer term goal in mind. We only get one chance to try to get Confucianism. Later on, we will only get one chance to be the first to Liberalism, or the first to circumnavigate, or the first to many other things. There are many benefits to being first, not the least of which is that the last is often the brutalized.

#4 works for me.

To be fair, I would like to see the opponents of Confucianism state their strategy in the same manner as #4. The people deserve an honest choice between equally well stated options.

Alot of you are saying you have had alot of luck beelining superexpensive techs. I would agree if we were playing on a lower difficulty or not preparing for war. The AI researches faster than we do at this high of a level. Gaining CoL is close to 40 turns away give or take. We will gain Monuments, courthouses and found a religion yet lose any tech lead we might have had on our opponents. If we opt to stay on a more conservative path we will keep our lead on our rivals and still gain a state religion via Hatty and eventually her holy city. The eventual war will strain our economy and force us to decrease our research spending. If they are already ahead of us because of the beeline we will fall very far behind during the war. With only one "possible" civ to trade with afterwards it is hard to see us coming out of this science slump for a while.

I would agree if we were playing on a lower difficulty or not preparing for war.

I thought this war was (mainly) so we could get the religion?

I agree 100 % with Lord Civius view.

I thought this war was (mainly) so we could get the religion?

Wrong. The religion we get from an immediate "Open Border" Agreement, the war will gain us this part of the continent up to the mountains.

The religion we get from an immediate "Open Border" Agreement
There is a factor of randomness to spread of religion, which means it is no more guaranteed than it is guaranteed we'll get Confucianism.

I will rephrase that, I thought this war was (partly) so we could get the religion's holy city?

yeah, the plan is to get the Religions Holy City.

For the randomness part for getting the religion... We get it sooner or later, at no cost, this is how the game works.

I will rephrase that, I thought this war was (partly) so we could get the religion's holy city?

I don't think there has been a clear statement of the goals of the war. I've asked for such in the war discussion thread.

-- Ravensfire

I thought this war was (partly) so we could get the religion's holy city?

I don't think there has been a clear statement of the goals of the war. I've asked for such in the war discussion thread.

That was just a clever guess as it were, likewise i haven't seen any proper, we aim this that and the other. Be good to have one from whoever is in charge of that area. :)

That was just a clever guess as it were, likewise i haven't seen any proper, we aim this that and the other. Be good to have one from whoever is in charge of that area. :)

Indeed. The track record so far of the Triad suggests we'll get a vague hint and a pat on the head to make us go away! :lol:

-- Ravensfire

The war against hatty is part of an overall strategy that has been talked about for quite a while, of performing an early war against our closest neighbour in order to

- worker steal
- weaken dangerous nearby opponent
- possibly capture land early on

the fact that hatty also happens to have founded a religion and that we have been gifted horseback riding (a massive advantage) so early in the game just make this strategy all the more obvious to take. We have the tech advantage now, now is the time to go to war.

Yes, we are in the stage of formulating goals and getting needed intel, please respect that.

Yes, we are in the stage of formulating goals and getting needed intel, please respect that.

How long?

I assume that the Triad will not refrain from further discussions despite the lack of information and goals, so asking us to respect what the Triad does not is rather pathetic. You can't have it both ways.

-- Ravensfire

You cannot ask for a fully fledged battle plan, when we havent even scouted Spain yet.
We need Open Border with Spain for that.

But I can say for the Warlords City, after having written with the other warlord lads, that we plan on Monument, Barracks, Archer, Stables and then some Horseman Archers, given we are allowed to get Archery and Mysticism in the next turnchat.

We will thus first be able to attack Spain in full by the end of Term 2, with 5 Horseman Archers, preferably 2 City Raider Swordsmen (if we got IW and Iron) and 2 archers. Our chosen pig city would do that.

I think that we are anyways at an end for the First Term very soon, when the third Triad city is built (The platform does not go longer than that), and we are to have a new Prime Faction Election, so you may choose to rebel between each session, or to build a much stronger proposal and gather support for the real imminent election.

You cannot ask for a fully fledged battle plan, when we havent even scouted Spain yet.
We need Open Border with Spain for that.

But I can say for the Warlords City, after having written with the other warlord lads, that we plan on Monument, Barracks, Archer, Stables and then some Horseman Archers, given we are allowed to get Archery and Mysticism in the next turnchat.

That in incorrect. Kindly read the words I have written. I have NOT asked for a fully fledged battle plan. Never. Please retract that part of the statement.

-- Ravensfire

Daveshack did ask for that, and he is the Tribal Faction Leader.

For the other questions you asked:


1) What are the goals of this war? Not the vague promises and hints, but at what point is the war considered "successful". If we can go farther because the war is going well - that's great! But what is the strategic objectives of this war?

Goal would be elimination of Spain within Term 2, and the conquest of their Holy City, as well as razing cities not fitting our planned city grid (to be discussed and polled later).


2) Best guess as to the relative strength

They would have Archers, Copper-based units, likely Barracks/Garrison. Their counter-offensive would be weak, as they got no aggressive trait, but their border would tend to be longer and land would be deeper. This is why I promoted warband with Marching Healer.

3) Rough estimate as to what needs to be available for us to succeed in this war

5 Horseman Archers, 2 Archers, 2 City Raiding Swordsmen and 1 other unit to be defined (could be War Elephant later).
These would all be ready within middle of term 2, latter part, but prior to the war.

Goal would be elimination of Spain within Term 2, and the conquest of their Holy City, as well as razing cities not fitting our planned city grid (to be discussed and polled later).
war.

This war will extend into a second term, hmmm.

Based on that, this isn't the type of ancient war that I like to get involved in. The objectives aren't short enough - the scope is too broad for this early of a war.

If our nation is going to be taken into war this early, it really should be a much shorter focus. Get the holy city, and get peace. Let the elimination of Spain happen later.

Still, I'd prefer not to get into this war at all, but wait.

EDIT: From your post, this war isn't expected to start until the 2nd term? That will be a ways off, and depends on the views at that time.

-- Ravensfire

5 Horseman Archers, 2 Archers, 2 City Raiding Swordsmen and 1 other unit to be defined (could be War Elephant later).
These would all be ready within middle of term 2, latter part, but prior to the war.

a couple of axemen as well might be useful as well and cats, if we get construction. (also needed for War elephants

I am actually leaning to a Calendar and Construction gambit (also requiring sailing and math), which builds around War Elephants and so on. The core of our army has to be Horseman Archers, as that is our early tech and resource advantage, so that is a given.

also requiring sailing and math

and masonary for construction. (construction doesn't require sailing does it :confused:)

Provo, wouldn't you say an ealy worker steal plus pillage, strike, aimed at keeping hatty weak, would be the obvious way to use our horse archer advantage, rather than waiting till the middle of term 2 and your large invasion force? (still do it by all means, but weaken her first with the horse archers)

Provo, wouldn't you say an ealy worker steal plus pillage, strike, aimed at keeping hatty weak, would be the obvious way to use our horse archer advantage, rather than waiting till the middle of term 2 and your large invasion force? (still do it by all means, but weaken her first with the horse archers)

Yes, that would be the prelude to the war.

First out we scout out their fog. We wait briefly for the first Hindu city to appear in our lands.

Secondly we pillage her improvements for gold, resources for denial and workers for disruption and getting own workers.

Thirdly, we invade them and finish them, shouldn't take more than a playsession.

I outlined at least how I feel we could conduct this first worker steal war in the war with Spain thread. It is post 40 on the previous page to the current one. I have not really gotten any feedback on as it seems the conversation has wandered elsewhere. I woiuld love to hear peoples opinions on it as a starting point to gain an outline of our battle plans for the worker steal war.

I agree to you Blastoid, of "warming" them up with a horseman.

This is the strategy I have been promoting as well, and I support it wholeheartedly

The justification for not taking the CoL path is that we will get a religion from the Spanish and thus do not need confucianism. I still have not seen adequate explanation of how this worker stealing war accomplishes the higher strategic goal of obtaining a religion.

We called for opening the borders to Spain at the earliest convenience, to let Spanish religion flow in as we scout. We can do this one turn from now, as we are 1 turn from discovering writing.

The worker steal will weaken spain not only meaning that she will not be able to threaten ourselves, but that she will also not be able to defend herself, this strategy makes the conquest of her holy city inevitable

Yes, and if we pillage her as well, she'll be quite harmless while we build a stack to take the city, but first we must conduct some diplomacy with lincoln to make him either happier towards us, or less happy towards hatty i believe..

The arguments have all been very well articulated from both sides. Anything I would have to add would meerely be redundant, except to state that I agree with certain individuals here. I do like this kind of discussion though, so keep it up!

Here is what I would like to see, and I'll leave it as that:
Archery->Mysticism->Pottery->CoL->Mathematics->Currency->Construction

Don't forget you can safely trade for some techs, but once you lose the tech momentum on Monarch, it is very hard to get back. Also, city maintenance is higher than Prince as some of you know, but I'm not sure that all of us are fully aware of this ramification from this difficulty level.

Yes, and if we pillage her as well, she'll be quite harmless while we build a stack to take the city, but first we must conduct some diplomacy with lincoln to make him either happier towards us, or less happy towards hatty i believe..

Lincoln tends to be defensive in nature, so keeping him happy should 1) not be too hard, but also 2) give us a good tech trading partner.

As to war with Hatty vs. Letting religion spread...these are counter intuitive, but if the borders are open, maybe we could explore her territory and learn where to strike first, where the resources are, etc...This last thought would go much more in line with rushing to war.

Lincoln tends to be defensive in nature, so keeping him happy should 1) not be too hard, but also 2) give us a good tech trading partner.

As to war with Hatty vs. Letting religion spread...these are counter intuitive, but if the borders are open, maybe we could explore her territory and learn where to strike first, where the resources are, etc...This last thought would go much more in line with rushing to war.

Read the Warlord Plan, and you will see we have thought about these eventualities.

Don't forget you can safely trade for some techs
I realize that the AI tends to prioritize Alphabet, but remember that we cannot trade without that tech.

I am prepared to discuss and poll the next three technologies in the open here, after Aluminum Knights have played until Pottery.

I know Iron Working is one wanted technology, Meditation/CoL another, as well as Math/Construction, Possibly Math/Sailing, Currency yet another, or Alphabet.
Or other options.

Please feel free to research and argue your case for a tech route and it will be polled. The range would only be for the next session only, as we constantly revise technology planning as the games go on. And please, no catty remarks of course.

Like the catty remark troll you just made? Knock it off please.

I realize that the AI tends to prioritize Alphabet, but remember that we cannot trade without that tech.

As long as the AI has Alphabet, you can trade techs with them.

I have played many games on Monarch now without beelining for Alphabet...sometimes, I haven't learned Alphabet until I get Currency or Construction first, lol. Alphabet does allow you to buils Spies though, which you can use to defend your cities against other spies or to obviously wreak havoc with your enemies.

From this and other threads, I would think that these are the main tech path choices: (Archery -> Mysticism first are a given)

1) Pottery -> IW
2) Pottery -> CoL
3) Straight to CoL
4) Pottery -> IW -> CoL
5) Pottery -> IW -> Math -> Construction
6) Pottery -> Math -> Construction
7) Pottery -> CoL -> Math -> Currency
8) Pottery -> Math -> Currency
7) Pottery -> IW -> Sailing
8) Pottery -> Sailing
9) Pottery -> Sailing -> Meditation
10) Pottery -> Meditation
11) Pottery -> Sailing -> Meditation -> CoL
12) Pottery -> CoL -> Meditation
13) Pottery -> Sailing -> IW
14) Pottery -> Sailing -> CoL
15) Pottery -> Sailing -> Math -> Currency -> CoL
16) Pottery -> Sailing -> CoL -> Math -> Currency

Now, most immediate choice is Pottery or CoL or IW or Meditation or Sailing next. Run that poll imediately.

Pottery is already in the techline for today.

We are to discuss technology route for the next session after todays (Aluminum Knights' session).

1) IW
2) Meditation - CoL
3) Math -> Construction
4) Math -> Currency
5) Math -> Sailing
6) Sailing -> Math

However, all this will be discussed after Aluminum Knights playsession, where we all know more about which tech route to pick. This will now be discussed, here, in the open, and polled properly, covering the number of turns next session will take.

Yeah, Pottery will be researched after Mysticism.

That is a good list, kwp. Personally, I like IW after Pottery, but we shall see what happens in the turnchat tonight.

However, all this will be discussed after Aluminum Knights playsession, where we all know more about which tech route to pick.

No reason it has to wait till then.

Big reason, and most agree.

Big reason, and most agree.
Post the reason please, and most do not agree.

-- Ravensfire

I am now for Alphabet, so discussing this further is moot, Ravensfire.