I know there has been alot of talk about war with the spanish in not so near or far distance future. I realized though that before I really championed this cause, i didn't talk to our nations great minds and see whaist you guys think. I haven't heard and dissonance, but what do you guys think. Is it to premature? Is it a good idea? Bad idea?

This is your place to share.

Here is my ideas of war with the Spanish. As follower of the Word these decisions fall partialy in my arena though it is important enough for all to discuss and execution of the war is up to the warlords.


I am running on the assumption that the copper we see is the only copper they have easy access to. I wish we had the scout over there to swing around to Hatty's west to check.

Note that Hatty and Lincoln are pleased an 0 modifies. We will incur a -1 penealty to lincoln each time we declare war.

I am assuming we will research archery next and produce some horse archers.

First thing to do is open boarder with both civs when we can. We want to get some + bonus with lincoln ASAP.



Executing the war

We should move a couple of horse archers to spanish boarder. We should have then make a quick dive into Spansih lands under open boarders to recon. Note any Copper or iron if we know of it.
Bring archers just out of boarders in positions to worker steal.
Declare war at a time when we can steal 1 or 2 workers. The more the better.
First escourt worker back to our land then return to pillage. Metals and horse first then food then anything else.

If Hatty never got use of copper she should have no spears. If she does, travel in pairs and kill it when it takes one of our horse archer out.

If she has a second city, it may be weakly defended and we take it out.


At this point we can choose either to make peace or do a long drawn out war.

If we stay at war, use 2-3 horse archers to keep hatty from doing anything. Once we get cats or spies. Take out her culture and take her cities.
We could also declare peace, move our units out of her boarders and watch her as we tech to cats or spies. Then we declare war, take more workers and wipe her out.

I think we need IW asap (After Myst), or our war will be conducted blindfolded.

I am not a stupid player, even though some players prefer to see me that way, however, if you allow yourself to ignore their creed and ways for a little bit, you will see that iron working makes perfect sense after mysticism.

Most of the argument against CoL is based on not needing Confucianism, because we will be acquiring religion from Spain.

Please clarify this issue. Will we be expecting to take Spain's religious city? How long will we need to wait by following this path?

I am not a stupid player, even though some players prefer to see me that way

Some people would call this trolling. Nobody said, or even implied, anything close that I'm aware of.

Trolling? What has forum rules to do with this?

I am merely stating that my ideas are as valid as anyones, in spite of the derogative remarks my ideas has gotten.

Claiming that someone has made "derogative" remarks when in fact they have not.

Ok, forget the very idea then, all is perfect.

Getting back to the point and Dave shacks question.

How quick the war can go depends on factors we do not know, like Spains forces and wether She has two cities or one, whether she turtles or not. If she does not turtle I think it will be fairly quick and we will not need cats. But if she does we have to accept that we need cataupults or spies.

I agree with Provo that IW needs to be researched for war, though i still say Archery first.

Yeah, I asked for Archery, Myst and then IW.

So we can't count on taking the religion city?

Getting back to RP, I would think there is a faction that should get pretty upset if we go another 2000 game years with no religion and no plan to get one. :rolleyes:

The plan is simple, Open Borders to Spain, scout them, let Hinduism come to us, and at the same time prepare for war. Also, Meditation and Aesthetics, to build Shewdagon Paya, gold doubles speed, choose religion civic at will (it is a wonder). I proposed it, but again, everyone seems to ignore my proposal.

So am I really wrong about being ignored or belittled, or what?

That's an interesting plan. Doesn't match what the rest of the thread says, but worth consideration.

Will Hinduism come to us? I don't know, but have doubts. My thoughts on this is that AIs seem to me to be notoriously inefficient and unreliable religion spreaders, at least until they build their shrine.

Is choosing a religion civic important? Is it good enough to put hammers into it that could be spent on military, or maybe Mausoleum of Mausallos (1.5 times GA length) or Colossus? I don't use anything other than OR and occasionally FR when the UN vote makes me. Others opinions may vary. ;)

The thing is researching CoL will take along time and we are not assured of even getting Confusicisism, hinduism well much better established in our lands. It makes sense taking advantage of our production etc and going for them. I think an invasion is more concrete then a tech battle agianst the whole world for CoL. We are already behind in preq techs for CoL. Its not likely we will get it first.

Personally, I think if we're going to make the effort to declare war on anyone we need to be assured of getting something worth while.

In my mind, the only thing the Spanish have that would justify it is the Holy City. Now there just so happens in BTS to be a quest you can get if your at war with whoever has the Holy City in your state relgion.

So ASAP open the borders with Spain so she can spread her religion to us before the war starts.

Yeah, we want a foreign affairs round to "Open Borders" with Spain, please bring this to Legion. We want to scout their interior too, before we go in, as well as getting Hinduism.

I agree. Though I would add bring a worker (as soon as we can spare one) and connect our city with her capital (Holy City). Barring we are not connected via trade routes. In my experience it is the quickest way to spread the religion to us. A road will also help the war effort.

After scouting her lands we will have a better idea of what defensive units she has. If she has copper we will need IW. The war effort to build all of those axes will shut down production in Arete. If she has copper I would suggest waitng until we have IW and Construction. This will also give us time to gain a State religion peacefully and build political ties with Lincoln.

If she has copper I would suggest destroying it before she builds anything with it. Unless she has had the foresight, to build spears with it, then our horse archers will still have mastery of the surrounding land

I would still like to have IW, to actually do something.

War with the Spanish?

Why?

I like Provo idea (post 12). And I remember he said people thought he was a
weak player. So, Provolution I have a challenge for you, against yourself:

Make a real warplan against the spanyards (afterall they have a Religion and a
Shrine that belongs to us).

I know the current data is almost zero, but do it. Say the quality of needed
troops, so that Researchers know the path and Builders resources; and the quantity, so that Builders can know what to do, and give timings and present
ways and ask for protection.

Everybody knows that time and surprises shall make some changes but that's
the begin and the way.

If you so wish, I can help in my role of Loyal Opposition.

My best regards,

we should switch all of our espionage allotment to spanish, to unlock better intellegence.

the purpose of my propesed first war is to make the secpond war effective.

I agree with Blastoid on Spanish espionage.

I would still like to have IW, to actually do something.
QFE. This is kinda funny, if it means what it seems to mean.

I'd also like to see that war plan. How many units, what kind, how long will they take to build? What goals for the war? What real intel do we have other than the religion indicator on the score? Are we stronger or weaker? (my bet is on weaker given difficulty level)

I said we need to map their lands first, I have asked for a open border agreement to scout them out and get Hinduism. Warlords will build barracks and stables, and then we may make the warplan.

We cannot make a proper warplan before we uncovered iron or not. That is a parameter that will decide on the specifics.

Can you give an estimated timeframe for when a war might be doable? It would help to know if we should consider acquiring some of the desired techs via trade instead of via research. ;)

I'd also like to see that war plan. How many units, what kind, how long will they take to build? What goals for the war? What real intel do we have other than the religion indicator on the score? Are we stronger or weaker? (my bet is on weaker given difficulty level

That would be one hell of a battleplan report :crazyeye:. All of the what ifs would keep him busy for a week. There are things we can do to begin preperation but a true battleplan is a little while off still. If we research Archery and IW in the next 3-4 techs, scout Hatty , increase espionage on her and open our borders we will have done what we can do for now as far as warplanning. We already have a speculation thread here.

Yeah, he wishes me no good, and would just give me a lot of work he will just butcher, like the Dye Plan I came up with. I prefer to time the complete plan when the time is right.
Also, forward the argument to NZL, not me. He is our Warlord.

That would be one hell of a battleplan report :crazyeye:. All of the what ifs would keep him busy for a week. There are things we can do to begin preperation but a true battleplan is a little while off still. If we research Archery and IW in the next 3-4 techs, scout Hatty , increase espionage on her and open our borders we will have done what we can do for now as far as warplanning. We already have a speculation thread here.

Yup - it is a lot of work.

We've got other areas where we're making decisions expecting a successful war. No information is given about why that belief is held so strongly, nor mention of a fallback plan.

This war seems be be core to the plans of the Triad, and yet there is minimal information given. Yes, it is difficult to get full details about the matter right now. I certainly am not looking for that. There is information that can be provided, and should be provided in clear, uncertain terms.

1) What are the goals of this war? Not the vague promises and hints, but at what point is the war considered "successful". If we can go farther because the war is going well - that's great! But what is the strategic objectives of this war?

2) Best guess as to the relative strength

3) Rough estimate as to what needs to be available for us to succeed in this war

This war is a major decision that has strong implications for the entire nation. A failure here could doom our civilization, and yet we're getting vague promises and assurances. That's not enough.

-- Ravensfire

The point of these debates is to reveal the truth of whether the strategy's goals can be achieved, or if they are just the bait part of a bait & switch marketing method. If the goals can be achieved, then surely there can be some kind of estimate at how to achieve them.

I have already revealed that I'm not a high level player, nor an expert on warfare. I'm looking for an education here, not just a debate. Yes, I'm going to question things that are unclear, but there is nothing to fear if the plan is a solid one.

Before I start I would like to point out that although I am a member of the philosophers, I am merely stating my own oppinion which may differ from my factions.

As I see it

1) our primary goal is to stop hatty from expanding, worker steal, pillage, destroy settlers in the open. If we can keep her restricted to one undeveloped city the war is a success. Our secondary goal is to capture the Hindu holy city. If we manage this the war is a complete success. Whether we do it sooner rather than later is dependant on Hatty's strength when our Horse Archers turn up.

2) I doubt hatty is strong, although we have already seen she has archers, she has clearly also researched into religion and is unlikely to have connected up to bronze (if she has discovered it). Remember we have popped 3 techs from huts, we are likely to be tech superior. I imagine she has at most 2 archers and a warrior at the moment.

3) To achieve our primary goal we should need only 2 horse archers, possibly even just the one. Without bronze she will not be able to build anything capable of taking down a horse archer without massively superior numbers.

To achieve objective two (capture of the holy city) is more difficult, as then her archers come into there own. It all depends on how many archers, whether the city is on a hill and whether her archers are upgraded. If all these points are in our favour, i.e 2 archers in a grassland city with unupgraded archers, I think 3 horsemen should have no problem taking them down. I'd actually expect the first two to win in fact wihtout the need for the third.

If she is better defended we will need to wait for a bit until we have better units to attack with (cats, swords), but due to the strategy of expansion prevention she shouldn't be able to build anything more than archers at this point. Thus even if she is currently heavily defended an early start to the war will benefit us in the long run

I suggest taking down the spanish early. Isabella is always a nuisensece in all of my games.

It's unrestricted, so the leader is Hatshepsut, not Isabbella.

It is part of the Triad dogma to destroy near civs.

Sorry, when I hear spanish always think Isabella.!

We also have Lincoln of the Babylonians, another interesting combination.

Lincoln should be our first target then, before he gets archery because Bowmen are very,VERY tough defenders!

I think he probably starts with archery on this level.

He does, we have seen them running around.

We actualy do not know if Spain or Babylon has actualy researched archery. They start with 1-2 archers on this level (I forget which) but they do not start with the technology, so they can not make any more until they research it. This means we need to see 3 different archers to confirm archery has been learned

Several people are asking for more specifics for a future war with spain. It is early so anything i say here can change and I am in control of very little of what goes on here. But this discussion we are having is important as we need to be coordinated in tech, units, diplomacy and movements.

In terms of the next turnset. It will most likely be about scouting.

First the couple of things that fall in my sphere of influence (as follower of the word) that I think must be done.

1) Put all espionage into Spain. We are very close to seeing there graph and we would like to be able to see there tech path. Espionage towards babylon is not nearly as usefull right now.

2) Open boarders with both Babylon and Spain
Open with babylon to start the march to a + modifier and allow our scout to pass through there lands and scout there capitol
Open Boarders to spain (most important) to encourage religion spread and to allow our units to scout



Now for things outside my sphere of control. These are merly suggestions, i do not control these actions but I anm used to playing on these levels and above. From what i know now this is how i would apporach spain and war

1) we need to make sure our city 2 is safe and secure, this takes precidence over any military action put forward. It is no use to lose it to spain or the barbs. So if problems come up up there we need to address them. I hope nobody disagrrees with this

2) We are at 2400BC, we are still early and means that wars are not only taking cities but also about weakening an oponent so they will be less of a problem later. If we go to war relatively soon (next 10-30 turns) then we do not need to be taking cities but workers. If we go to war later, then we should be taking both workers and cities. At this early stage with low populations and few inter civ contacts, declaring war does not have the other negative conquenses it has later.

3) I do propose that we should look to declare war on spain when
A) We have two horse archers built
B) We can take at least one worker the first turn of the war
I would also like to scout spain before executing this plan.
I am not going to try to estimate how long it will take to have two horse archers ready. Other factors may come into play and i am to lasy to open the game and do the math.

The gain for this war
1 or 2 workers
A few gold from Pilaging
a drastic reduction in Spains power and ability to develope. Our gain in worker(s) is there loss. Particulaily if we can put them down to zero workers. They then fall behind and become an easier oppenent to handle later. What we add to us we subtract from them. This idea of a worker steal war was in the triad platform.

I see this as enough benifit for little effort on our part


In conducting the war I would place a horse archer of our own in the fat cross of Madrid. Once a worker (or two if they have two) is in a place they can be stolen, move the horse archer out of cultural boundaries, declare war and move in and take the work. They have a movement of two and as long as Spain does not have copper she will not be able to beat them. If she has copper, we need both horse archers on the worker, as one may die. Escourt workers back to home and have horse archers return to pillage any improvements. When possible I would settle for neutral peace.

If spain makes a mistake and leaves a city underdefended or leaves a city only guarded with warriors. We try to take it. If in our scouting we discover that Spain is guarding a city only with warriors or has a small city with 1 archer, we may need to stop and take a carefull look at it as we may want to take the city now.

I would be planning in long term to take Spain completely out, but we are not far enough along to be more specific about when. I would just venture to say i hope we could do it in the BC Era.


Again this part is not traid docturine but my opinion as a member of the traid and a war of waging war that I have found very successfull at this level. Much of this lies in the hands of others. Consider it as you wish.

I believe the whole talk of war with the spanish was a simple statement made about placement of cities. That we could take one of Hatties if she settled here or there. The Triad Leaders have not to my knowledge declared an imminent war with the Spanish. So please stop reading into this for more than it is. Some Citizens favor an early war with the Spanish and others do not. I personally don't like early wars unless an opportunity presents itself. Our opportunity here is early Horse Archers. If after scouting we learn she is weak (without spearmen and a weak garrison) we should invade her as it will give us many benefits. If she is strong defensively then IMHO we shouldnot invade for a few gold and a worker. The benefits of open borders with her far outweigh a worker.

War with the Spanish?

Why?

Anyone care to answer my question?

Mostly to control our side of the continent, since they are awfully close. You cannot ask for a more "rational" and "logical" explanation than that.

Anyone care to answer my question?

To take the road that benefits us the most. If that road is war then so be it.

Mostly to control our side of the continent, since they are awfully close. You cannot ask for a more "rational" and "logical" explanation than that.
You've almost got me convinced there...

To take the road that benefits us the most. If that road is war then so be it.

"Why should we do it?" "Because it's the best."

Thanks a lot for totally failing to address my question.

More so, we got Horseman Archers as a great military lead, if we build up a core army of these after barracks and stables, I am convinced that with a couple more additions from other unit types, we can conquer Spain. Their culture is also a pain, as our borders are continuously under cultural attack.

More so, we got Horseman Archers as a great military lead, if we build up a core army of these after barracks and stables, I am convinced that with a couple more additions from other unit types, we can conquer Spain. Their culture is also a pain, as our borders are continuously under cultural attack.

Last time I checked, their borders were at least 4 tiles away from ours, and we had a grand total of 1 cities.

What about, you know, developping our own country first, before we start losing a war?

We plan to develop 3-4 cities first yes, but the war must be done somewhat quick.

We expect Spain to do the same, but Horseback Archer is something we have now.

Do not assume we are more stupid than you think, Dutchfire, I know where you are coming from, but we are not that dumb.

everyone is seems obsessed with barracks and stables before building horse archers, but the horse archers are currently good enough without upgrading, an unupgraded horsearcher would probably defeat on an unupgraded archer in a city, such is its superiority at this stage. It will be absolutely unbeatable while it is outside the city and worker stealing and pillaging at the very least.

A horsearcher against a spear attacking is around 20%, not absolutely unbeatable. But I agree with Seymoo, speed is of the utmost importance. We should be able to workersteal and then wreck copper out of their hands. After that they wont be able to kill horsearchers, even with 2 archers.

Anyone care to answer my question?

This is what I attempted to do in post 40, it is on the previous page. If it is not to your specifications then please be more specific.

here it is again quoted directly from post #40


The gain for this war
1 or 2 workers
A few gold from Pilaging
a drastic reduction in Spains power and ability to develope. Our gain in worker(s) is there loss. Particulaily if we can put them down to zero workers. They then fall behind and become an easier oppenent to handle later. What we add to us we subtract from them. This idea of a worker steal war was in the triad platform.

I see this as enough benifit for little effort on our part


Again this is my opinion but I see it as answering your question and several others of the same kin. If not you need to explain why it does not. There are early places in early threads where reasons to be agressive towards spain has been suggested and discussed. See the early intelegence threads on spain and babylon.


Other citizens like Lord Civius have disagreed with these ideas or reasons but they have stated why. This is usefull and makes for a good discussion and help effect the direction things will go. You seem to be claiming that nobody has explained why war when it has been explained several times. So take the places where it was explained and state counter arguments.

I want to keep this thread a discussion on how to play the game and not a shouting match or a place for catty comments. So for ALL the people who are doing this, and it is on both sides of the fence, keep to the point so we can stay on task.

A horsearcher against a spear attacking is around 20%, not absolutely unbeatable. But I agree with Seymoo, speed is of the utmost importance. We should be able to workersteal and then wreck copper out of their hands. After that they wont be able to kill horsearchers, even with 2 archers.

that is why we need to scout first to see where copper is in spains lands if it is there and know if she has spearmen. In my experience I have not seen an AI put more than one spear in a city this early in the game. Has anyone seen differently?

everyone is seems obsessed with barracks and stables before building horse archers, but the horse archers are currently good enough without upgrading, an unupgraded horsearcher would probably defeat on an unupgraded archer in a city, such is its superiority at this stage. It will be absolutely unbeatable while it is outside the city and worker stealing and pillaging at the very least.

I agree that barracks and stables are not going to be built before the first couple of horse archers. The warlords city may build threm fairly soon after its founding but that is there decision.


What about, you know, developping our own country first, before we start losing a war?

reference back to post 40


1) we need to make sure our city 2 is safe and secure, this takes precidence over any military action put forward. It is no use to lose it to spain or the barbs. So if problems come up up there we need to address them. I hope nobody disagrrees with this

I now support Blastoid's plan for building Horseman Archers right away after Monument, 2 of them, before we begin to build other city buildings. We need to apply force now that its fresh.

This is what I attempted to do in post 40, it is on the previous page. If it is not to your specifications then please be more specific.

here it is again quoted directly from post #40


The gain for this war
1 or 2 workers
A few gold from Pilaging
a drastic reduction in Spains power and ability to develope. Our gain in worker(s) is there loss. Particulaily if we can put them down to zero workers. They then fall behind and become an easier oppenent to handle later. What we add to us we subtract from them. This idea of a worker steal war was in the triad platform.

I see this as enough benifit for little effort on our part


Again this is my opinion but I see it as answering your question and several others of the same kin. If not you need to explain why it does not. There are early places in early threads where reasons to be agressive towards spain has been suggested and discussed. See the early intelegence threads on spain and babylon.


Other citizens like Lord Civius have disagreed with these ideas or reasons but they have stated why. This is usefull and makes for a good discussion and help effect the direction things will go. You seem to be claiming that nobody has explained why war when it has been explained several times. So take the places where it was explained and state counter arguments.

I want to keep this thread a discussion on how to play the game and not a shouting match or a place for catty comments. So for ALL the people who are doing this, and it is on both sides of the fence, keep to the point so we can stay on task.


I have stated my points on the matter. I think one Horseman Archer should suffice until we have gotten barracks and stables up. The first HAs mission would be to sabotage copper alone, until the main force of the upgraded HA invades.

You are right about the catty comments too. A couple of players in the opposition like to snipe a bit verbally to make people look dumb as well as come with their gameplay views right afterwards. Nothing of roleplay, storytelling or anything. I had to turn up the word "cattiness" on an online encyclopedia, and now I know what it means, and its an accurate description.

Maybe this group of Gentlemen could form "the Catty Faction" in order to sharpen and clarify their profile a bit.

provo though I think most of your posts are very good. In my opinonYou as well at times fall into the "catiness trap"

I am sorry for the "cattiness" I may have inflicted at stages,but I have improved, but I think the cattiness is a product of the habitat those remarks are made in. Some people have certain privileges...

The issue counts for where cattiness is the main communication, not some occasional deviation.

Warned for trolling, this post and the previous one.

The argument against CoL was that we don't need to found confucianism because we'll get religion from Spain. I still don't see that inaccuracy (it was pitched as capturing the Hindu holy city) being rectified. At least it has come out that this isn't really the goal.

Taking a worker or maybe a settler coming our way doesn't sound too bad, as long as it doesn't affect our own development. But I'd say don't wait for stables, just build unpromoted horsemen once the producing city doesn't have anything better to do. And clearly do that scouting, even if it means recalling the scout unit.

I have to agree with daveshack here, for the moment it is how early we can get our HA's into the war that matters, not how promoted they are.

Your comments have been taken in consideration, and the Warlords Faction will act accordingly ;)

We have already presented a plan "Warlord Perspective.." on how we want to go about our city as a war project, and I hope both Faith and Legion do something similar for how they want to develop their cities, knowing this intel.

It is time to come forwards with long term strategy proposals and involve people.

For being in the fog, I guess all of us had been curious to map what happened the first 30 turns or so, and we still need more information, intelligence and maps. Iron Working would be tremendeously helpful for scaling our warplans more detailed in the long perspective as iron influences war, upgrades and promotions in a major degree.

We intend to run wars with minimum casualties and maximum promotions.

Exactly, cause for all we know, Spain can be mining Iron, while we see it as just a mine on a hill or whatever.. Therefor, to be sure Spain has no Iron we need to either discover IronWorking, OR pillage all their mines at all times.

have we seen the Hatty revolts to slavery message?

This will tell us if she has IW. Also it her civic should be on the foreign relations screen

I havent heard any of the turnplayers state anything in that regard, but I remember Babylonia switched to Slavery from someone.

I do not think hatty has BW let alone IW, She may be researching BW now though, we are well ahead in techs most other civs will have only 3 or 4 techs researched (about the numebr we have researched without the goody huts), Hatty won't have IW unless she has deep researched it, which she clearly hasn't having discovered Hinduism

Good analysis Seymour

I havent heard any of the turnplayers state anything in that regard, but I remember Babylonia switched to Slavery from someone.

I haven't heard any of the turnplayers report anything that is going on. It's just another example of how the current administration is failing the general population.

It was in the turnchat report but then again that is a lot of reading to get through so I suppose that is not good enough.

I'd love to see major events like that highlighted in a session summary. A paragraph or two of the entire session, followed by the save, log and screenshots as needed.

An example of an on-line session with summary, save and log. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5704782&postcount=17)

An example of an offline session w/ summary, log and save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5785796&postcount=14)

-- Ravensfire

Thankyou Ravensfire, this kind of example is exactly what new players like myself needed to see what kind of thing is expected. I am sure the Triad will do better on this in future