Who is hyborem? i assume hes one of agares' angels but is there really even a back story for him?

I think there is in the new history section. (check the civlopedia concepts)

Yes. Read the Fall from Heaven History in the Civilopedia. A lot was added to that recently, including the explaination of how Hyborem came to be.


Although Agares has more angels/demons serving him than does any other god, he created none of them. They are all corruptions of the creations of others. Hyborem is no different. Hyborem was once one with Cernunnos, the Great Horned One. Cernunnos it seems may have been the strongest of the Archangels, since only he dared to attack Agares n Nyx directly. Agares showed him a vision of his corrupted self, and the shock was so intense that it split him in two, bringing the vision to life. This vision was Hyborem, who was identical to Cernnunos except in that he is evil, and in that he is dark and bloody in color. He then (or latter) become the lord of the Balors, the mighty true demons that arose where the darkness of Agares' hell bended with the flames of the fallen Bhall. Since they are described as true demons instead of former mortals, I suspect that these were angels of fire who, like their mistress, succumbed to the dark side.

The other half of Cernunnos went on to become a God, when Sucellus was killed and Resurrected as the new God of Life. He is the weakest of the gods, since he alone was not made by The One, but is still stronger than any of the other archangels. He is the main diety f thr Fellowship of the Leaves (although they mostly just worship nature, and they also revere the gods of Life and Creation, Sucellus and Amathaon).

...So, does that mean Cerunnos isn't bound by the Compact?

technically not...

It would seem that it might not apply to him. Of course, it did apply to Sucellus who used to rule the precept of Nature. Sucellus would have been in charge of keeping Cernunnos in line before, and he would have been punished like Odio if he had broken it. He may very well have had to agree to uphold the agreement in order to gain his sphere. I suspect that is the case. Also, since he was not a creation of The One, it may be possible to kill him without the use of the Godslayer anyway.

Of course, The One and Nemed are not bound by the agreement at all. Although Nemed gave up his sphere, I think that he must still be immortal and around somewhere. The parts of the compact related to worshipers and use of divine power aren't really relevant to him, but I'm pretty sure that non agreeing to the compact means the Godslayer would be of no use against him.

but did not the compact apply to all of the gods and their angels as well? if that is the case, and cerunnos was an archangel at the time, he is still bound by it. The fact that he was promoted wouldnt negate agreements he was bound to prior to his divine ascension.

Archangels could enter Erebus after the compact. Hyborem, as I can tell, is not breaking it by entering. Also, Ceruneouss, befor gohood, entered creation to watch over the elves. Also, Sirona's archangel appears in Ethen's apedia entry, and I'm sure there's more. The limts of the compact are odd, and hard to tell what exactly is allowed.

Actually, it is Nantosuelta's Archangel, Splendor, whom Ethne saw. Sirona's Archangel is Pelian the Suffering.


I don't think that just entering creation is a breach of the contract, but what they do there can be. Odio was not allowed to rampage through creation, but Sucellus was allowed to live among and guide the Ljosalfar through the Age of Ice.

Yet sabathiel is not allowed in creation... he has to guid the bannor from an interdimensional pocket...

Yet sabathiel is not allowed in creation... he has to guid the bannor from an interdimensional pocket...

Maybe as long as he doesn't actually step on (or fly in, as would be the case) Erebus itself, he is not breaking the compact.

Hyborem doesn't seem to care that much.

Maybe as long as he doesn't actually step on (or fly in, as would be the case) Erebus itself, he is not breaking the compact.

Yes but... Why are Hyborem and Basium alowed to enter creation and cause all kinds of trouble, but Sabathiel isn't allowed in at all. Maybe its because he leads a nation of humans? He's sort of interfering with the ''let them lead their own lives'' principle of the compact. Basium has angels and Hyborem has angels, the angels can decide who they want to follow.

On the other hand, if he chose to leave heaven and basically stop beeing a proper angel like Cassiel or the Order hero. It would be fine.

Well, his entry says that he id bound "to the strictest interpretation of the compact." Maybe the most gods and archangels read it a little more loosely.

Plus, Sabathiel is the archangel of Junil, god of Law. I expect Junil would be fairly scrupulous about honouring the Compact, at least when it comes to his second-in-command.

And, bear in mind that Hyborem gets summoned into this world by the Infernal Pact. Perhaps the gods simply don't have the power to send their arcangels to Erebus, but if they can get there any other way, they're safe.

AFAIK Sabathiel can enter Erebus, but chooses not to. When they left hell, Sabthiel was greatly weakened, so he went to heaven to recuperate. However, I think that he is weakened when in other planes, hence he never returns to Erebus. Of course, I can see him entering eventually if the Bannor are all but lost.

Yes but... Why are Hyborem and Basium alowed to enter creation and cause all kinds of trouble, but Sabathiel isn't allowed in at all. Maybe its because he leads a nation of humans? He's sort of interfering with the ''let them lead their own lives'' principle of the compact. Basium has angels and Hyborem has angels, the angels can decide who they want to follow.I think Basium is technically fallen though, a breaker of the compact. Hyborem might have found a loophole or also have broken the compact. Question though, is the Godslayer effective against archangels?

Maybe the godslayer only works on those who actually signed the compact because they all used a piece of thier powers to create the godslayer.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. There are more ways to break the compact than entering the creation, but can the Godslayer threaten those who don't? Maybe Agares can break the compact so long as he stays far away from the Godslayer himself?

There is a word in the Angelic tongue for "love". Three, in fact. There are words for "mercy", for "compassion", for "tender kindness". The closest word to be used on this particular medium is carved upon his left forearm: "prudence." Like the word he just finished upon his chest, "justice", this is prayer in his native tongue written in blood and pain upon his now mortal flesh....

The civilopedia states that Basium is now mortal, so he fell in the same manner as Sphenor. He may have chosen to fall before the Compact was ratified, but it seems he fell in a manner that the compact allowed.

I think that Hyborem may technically be breaking the compact, but maybe he's only violating the spirit of the compact while keeping the letter of the law through some loophole.

[quote=civilopedia]
With the covert assistance of Agares, the walls of creation were weakened imperceptibly. Hell, always existing alongside the infinite plane where mortals dwelt, was given brief, tortured access. Hyborem took his servants and set out at once.

They are forced to carve a city from the dirt with their own claws when this reality refuses to submit to their will. But that will is strengthened by Hyborem's demonic desires, and his underlings abject fear of him. Hot tempered and Impatient, he is nonetheless cunning and willing to watch the kingdoms of men, even to learn from them how to operate in this realm, until his goals are fulfilled and he can bring as many mortals into hell to torment for eternity.[quote]

Perhaps reality "refuses to submit to their will" because of some restrictions from the compact?




I think that the Godslayer technically only works against those gods who agreed to the compact, so archangels, Cernunnos, and Nemed would be immune. Of course, to enter creation the angels probably have to submit to some restrictions (and we do know that Basium is mortal now).

Perhaps reality "refuses to submit to their will" because of some restrictions from the compact?More of being used to existing in their own vault/world, I think.

More of being used to existing in their own vault/world, I think.

I would agree with that, they probably used various forms of magic to mold the world they were in and they don't work, or maybe don't work properly in Erebus.

I'm sure there were at least a couple thousand in Hyborem's group who had skills related to building when they were mortal.

Yeah, I think so too, but I was looking for something to explain his relation to the compact.

Still, if it was the human (or vampire or elven, or dwarven, or orc, as would be the case) civ that allowed Hyborem in, as in that they were the final key to getting Hyborem through. Then it might be a loophole because the god didn't send or let them through (although Agares did this covertly).

The compact has as many loopholes as swiss cheese, lol, or maybe it only applies in ways that the gods understand.

My thought also.
It's a subtlety: Basium and Hyborem didn't enter creation, they were summoned. So they could always claim they had no choice.

I'm not so sure I agree. Their lore doesn't make it clear whether they were summoned or just chose to come.

Mulcarn too was summoned, yet no one denied that he broke the Compact.

"As soon as Bhall fell Mulcarn, who had been waiting for that moment, moved into the world."

Maybe I just can't find it, Magistre, but I can't find news of him being summoned.

Did you read the history in the civilopedia?

That ritual uncovered by Trenton Majosi had found its way into the Illians hands. They had no fear of a Godswar, since Bhall was responsible for opposing their patron diety Mulcarn. With Bhall fallen their lord was unopposed, and this dispossessed people saw an opportunity to have more than the scraps left for them by the rest of humanity.

The world was on fire and although many seers and prophets immediately knew when the ritual began few empires could afford to send armies to stop the ritual that was being performed. Only a single tribe of the Khazad known as the Luchuirp rallied an army. They were golem makers so the burning food supplies didn't affect their army as strongly as other nations. The Luchuirp assailed the Illian capital with the full force of their battle machines, but they were too late. Just as they broke through the city walls Mulcarn entered creation and with a whisper the Luchuirp army was wiped out.

Also, it has been stated that until Trenton Mojosi discovered the ritual (which he would have used to summon Dannalin to save his beloved Aifons, but was too afraid that it would start a new godswar), it was thought to be impossible for a god to enter creation at all.

Well, maybe there's nothing against them sending thier archangels or lower ranking angels into Erebus if they fell. Junil did this with her (I think, the pedia never really states Junil's gender) angel, Spheneher (sp?). Although Sphener wanted to go to Erebus and I guess this allowed him into Erebus without breaking the compact.

However I don't see how an 'angel' of hell would 'fall' in a way that would force them into Erebus.

*sigh* if the 'pedia is available without starting the game, I fear I don't know which file should I click on.

So I went to the main page (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171398) and took what was there. And doesn't it say that the Illians did it?
Also, it has been stated that until Trenton Mojosi discovered the ritual (which he would have used to summon Dannalin to save his beloved Aifons, but was too afraid that it would start a new godswar), it was thought to be impossible for a god to enter creation at all.

Wouldn't that mean that the compact works like a charm (heh) from the other side, but summoning is irresistible? Maybe the crux of the matter is just this: that summoning is, precisely, an offer no entity can refuse...

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. There are more ways to break the compact than entering the creation, but can the Godslayer threaten those who don't? Maybe Agares can break the compact so long as he stays far away from the Godslayer himself?

As I recall from an earlier thread, the Godslayer is really a symbol of the Compact. The sword is more of a physical manifestation of that agreement, and things will play out so that, if a god enters Erebus, the Godslayer will inevitably find its way to him. That's why Mulcarn couldn't just bury his Godslayer piece in the Letum Frigus and guard it personally: That would have been a futile gesture, as the physical sword is unimportant.

The reason Hyborem was allowed in was that he was summoned by the Infernal Pact, Mulcarn couldn't since the Illians simply opened a portal and Mulcarn chose to go through.

As I recall from an earlier thread, the Godslayer is really a symbol of the Compact. The sword is more of a physical manifestation of that agreement, and things will play out so that, if a god enters Erebus, the Godslayer will inevitably find its way to him. That's why Mulcarn couldn't just bury his Godslayer piece in the Letum Frigus and guard it personally: That would have been a futile gesture, as the physical sword is unimportant.Yeah, makes sense, but I was thinking more of staying in your own vault and sending waves of minions to subdue mankind.