Who is hyborem? i assume hes one of agares' angels but is there really even a back story for him?

I think there is in the new history section. (check the civlopedia concepts)

Yes. Read the Fall from Heaven History in the Civilopedia. A lot was added to that recently, including the explaination of how Hyborem came to be.


Although Agares has more angels/demons serving him than does any other god, he created none of them. They are all corruptions of the creations of others. Hyborem is no different. Hyborem was once one with Cernunnos, the Great Horned One. Cernunnos it seems may have been the strongest of the Archangels, since only he dared to attack Agares n Nyx directly. Agares showed him a vision of his corrupted self, and the shock was so intense that it split him in two, bringing the vision to life. This vision was Hyborem, who was identical to Cernnunos except in that he is evil, and in that he is dark and bloody in color. He then (or latter) become the lord of the Balors, the mighty true demons that arose where the darkness of Agares' hell bended with the flames of the fallen Bhall. Since they are described as true demons instead of former mortals, I suspect that these were angels of fire who, like their mistress, succumbed to the dark side.

The other half of Cernunnos went on to become a God, when Sucellus was killed and Resurrected as the new God of Life. He is the weakest of the gods, since he alone was not made by The One, but is still stronger than any of the other archangels. He is the main diety f thr Fellowship of the Leaves (although they mostly just worship nature, and they also revere the gods of Life and Creation, Sucellus and Amathaon).

...So, does that mean Cerunnos isn't bound by the Compact?

technically not...

It would seem that it might not apply to him. Of course, it did apply to Sucellus who used to rule the precept of Nature. Sucellus would have been in charge of keeping Cernunnos in line before, and he would have been punished like Odio if he had broken it. He may very well have had to agree to uphold the agreement in order to gain his sphere. I suspect that is the case. Also, since he was not a creation of The One, it may be possible to kill him without the use of the Godslayer anyway.

Of course, The One and Nemed are not bound by the agreement at all. Although Nemed gave up his sphere, I think that he must still be immortal and around somewhere. The parts of the compact related to worshipers and use of divine power aren't really relevant to him, but I'm pretty sure that non agreeing to the compact means the Godslayer would be of no use against him.

but did not the compact apply to all of the gods and their angels as well? if that is the case, and cerunnos was an archangel at the time, he is still bound by it. The fact that he was promoted wouldnt negate agreements he was bound to prior to his divine ascension.

Archangels could enter Erebus after the compact. Hyborem, as I can tell, is not breaking it by entering. Also, Ceruneouss, befor gohood, entered creation to watch over the elves. Also, Sirona's archangel appears in Ethen's apedia entry, and I'm sure there's more. The limts of the compact are odd, and hard to tell what exactly is allowed.

Actually, it is Nantosuelta's Archangel, Splendor, whom Ethne saw. Sirona's Archangel is Pelian the Suffering.


I don't think that just entering creation is a breach of the contract, but what they do there can be. Odio was not allowed to rampage through creation, but Sucellus was allowed to live among and guide the Ljosalfar through the Age of Ice.

Yet sabathiel is not allowed in creation... he has to guid the bannor from an interdimensional pocket...

Yet sabathiel is not allowed in creation... he has to guid the bannor from an interdimensional pocket...

Maybe as long as he doesn't actually step on (or fly in, as would be the case) Erebus itself, he is not breaking the compact.

Hyborem doesn't seem to care that much.

Maybe as long as he doesn't actually step on (or fly in, as would be the case) Erebus itself, he is not breaking the compact.

Yes but... Why are Hyborem and Basium alowed to enter creation and cause all kinds of trouble, but Sabathiel isn't allowed in at all. Maybe its because he leads a nation of humans? He's sort of interfering with the ''let them lead their own lives'' principle of the compact. Basium has angels and Hyborem has angels, the angels can decide who they want to follow.

On the other hand, if he chose to leave heaven and basically stop beeing a proper angel like Cassiel or the Order hero. It would be fine.

Well, his entry says that he id bound "to the strictest interpretation of the compact." Maybe the most gods and archangels read it a little more loosely.

Plus, Sabathiel is the archangel of Junil, god of Law. I expect Junil would be fairly scrupulous about honouring the Compact, at least when it comes to his second-in-command.

And, bear in mind that Hyborem gets summoned into this world by the Infernal Pact. Perhaps the gods simply don't have the power to send their arcangels to Erebus, but if they can get there any other way, they're safe.

AFAIK Sabathiel can enter Erebus, but chooses not to. When they left hell, Sabthiel was greatly weakened, so he went to heaven to recuperate. However, I think that he is weakened when in other planes, hence he never returns to Erebus. Of course, I can see him entering eventually if the Bannor are all but lost.

Yes but... Why are Hyborem and Basium alowed to enter creation and cause all kinds of trouble, but Sabathiel isn't allowed in at all. Maybe its because he leads a nation of humans? He's sort of interfering with the ''let them lead their own lives'' principle of the compact. Basium has angels and Hyborem has angels, the angels can decide who they want to follow.I think Basium is technically fallen though, a breaker of the compact. Hyborem might have found a loophole or also have broken the compact. Question though, is the Godslayer effective against archangels?

Maybe the godslayer only works on those who actually signed the compact because they all used a piece of thier powers to create the godslayer.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. There are more ways to break the compact than entering the creation, but can the Godslayer threaten those who don't? Maybe Agares can break the compact so long as he stays far away from the Godslayer himself?

There is a word in the Angelic tongue for "love". Three, in fact. There are words for "mercy", for "compassion", for "tender kindness". The closest word to be used on this particular medium is carved upon his left forearm: "prudence." Like the word he just finished upon his chest, "justice", this is prayer in his native tongue written in blood and pain upon his now mortal flesh....

The civilopedia states that Basium is now mortal, so he fell in the same manner as Sphenor. He may have chosen to fall before the Compact was ratified, but it seems he fell in a manner that the compact allowed.

I think that Hyborem may technically be breaking the compact, but maybe he's only violating the spirit of the compact while keeping the letter of the law through some loophole.

[quote=civilopedia]
With the covert assistance of Agares, the walls of creation were weakened imperceptibly. Hell, always existing alongside the infinite plane where mortals dwelt, was given brief, tortured access. Hyborem took his servants and set out at once.

They are forced to carve a city from the dirt with their own claws when this reality refuses to submit to their will. But that will is strengthened by Hyborem's demonic desires, and his underlings abject fear of him. Hot tempered and Impatient, he is nonetheless cunning and willing to watch the kingdoms of men, even to learn from them how to operate in this realm, until his goals are fulfilled and he can bring as many mortals into hell to torment for eternity.[quote]

Perhaps reality "refuses to submit to their will" because of some restrictions from the compact?




I think that the Godslayer technically only works against those gods who agreed to the compact, so archangels, Cernunnos, and Nemed would be immune. Of course, to enter creation the angels probably have to submit to some restrictions (and we do know that Basium is mortal now).

Perhaps reality "refuses to submit to their will" because of some restrictions from the compact?More of being used to existing in their own vault/world, I think.

More of being used to existing in their own vault/world, I think.

I would agree with that, they probably used various forms of magic to mold the world they were in and they don't work, or maybe don't work properly in Erebus.

I'm sure there were at least a couple thousand in Hyborem's group who had skills related to building when they were mortal.

Yeah, I think so too, but I was looking for something to explain his relation to the compact.

Still, if it was the human (or vampire or elven, or dwarven, or orc, as would be the case) civ that allowed Hyborem in, as in that they were the final key to getting Hyborem through. Then it might be a loophole because the god didn't send or let them through (although Agares did this covertly).

The compact has as many loopholes as swiss cheese, lol, or maybe it only applies in ways that the gods understand.

My thought also.
It's a subtlety: Basium and Hyborem didn't enter creation, they were summoned. So they could always claim they had no choice.

I'm not so sure I agree. Their lore doesn't make it clear whether they were summoned or just chose to come.

Mulcarn too was summoned, yet no one denied that he broke the Compact.

"As soon as Bhall fell Mulcarn, who had been waiting for that moment, moved into the world."

Maybe I just can't find it, Magistre, but I can't find news of him being summoned.

Did you read the history in the civilopedia?

That ritual uncovered by Trenton Majosi had found its way into the Illians hands. They had no fear of a Godswar, since Bhall was responsible for opposing their patron diety Mulcarn. With Bhall fallen their lord was unopposed, and this dispossessed people saw an opportunity to have more than the scraps left for them by the rest of humanity.

The world was on fire and although many seers and prophets immediately knew when the ritual began few empires could afford to send armies to stop the ritual that was being performed. Only a single tribe of the Khazad known as the Luchuirp rallied an army. They were golem makers so the burning food supplies didn't affect their army as strongly as other nations. The Luchuirp assailed the Illian capital with the full force of their battle machines, but they were too late. Just as they broke through the city walls Mulcarn entered creation and with a whisper the Luchuirp army was wiped out.

Also, it has been stated that until Trenton Mojosi discovered the ritual (which he would have used to summon Dannalin to save his beloved Aifons, but was too afraid that it would start a new godswar), it was thought to be impossible for a god to enter creation at all.

Well, maybe there's nothing against them sending thier archangels or lower ranking angels into Erebus if they fell. Junil did this with her (I think, the pedia never really states Junil's gender) angel, Spheneher (sp?). Although Sphener wanted to go to Erebus and I guess this allowed him into Erebus without breaking the compact.

However I don't see how an 'angel' of hell would 'fall' in a way that would force them into Erebus.

*sigh* if the 'pedia is available without starting the game, I fear I don't know which file should I click on.

So I went to the main page (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171398) and took what was there. And doesn't it say that the Illians did it?
Also, it has been stated that until Trenton Mojosi discovered the ritual (which he would have used to summon Dannalin to save his beloved Aifons, but was too afraid that it would start a new godswar), it was thought to be impossible for a god to enter creation at all.

Wouldn't that mean that the compact works like a charm (heh) from the other side, but summoning is irresistible? Maybe the crux of the matter is just this: that summoning is, precisely, an offer no entity can refuse...

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. There are more ways to break the compact than entering the creation, but can the Godslayer threaten those who don't? Maybe Agares can break the compact so long as he stays far away from the Godslayer himself?

As I recall from an earlier thread, the Godslayer is really a symbol of the Compact. The sword is more of a physical manifestation of that agreement, and things will play out so that, if a god enters Erebus, the Godslayer will inevitably find its way to him. That's why Mulcarn couldn't just bury his Godslayer piece in the Letum Frigus and guard it personally: That would have been a futile gesture, as the physical sword is unimportant.

The reason Hyborem was allowed in was that he was summoned by the Infernal Pact, Mulcarn couldn't since the Illians simply opened a portal and Mulcarn chose to go through.

As I recall from an earlier thread, the Godslayer is really a symbol of the Compact. The sword is more of a physical manifestation of that agreement, and things will play out so that, if a god enters Erebus, the Godslayer will inevitably find its way to him. That's why Mulcarn couldn't just bury his Godslayer piece in the Letum Frigus and guard it personally: That would have been a futile gesture, as the physical sword is unimportant.Yeah, makes sense, but I was thinking more of staying in your own vault and sending waves of minions to subdue mankind.

Lo! Death has reared himself a throne
In a strange city lying alone
Far down within the dim West,
Where the good and the bad and the worst and the best
Have gone to their eternal rest.
There shrines and palaces and towers
(Time-eaten towers that tremble not!)
Resemble nothing that is ours.
Around, by lifting winds forgot,
Resignedly beneath the sky
The melancholy waters lie.

No rays from the holy heaven come down
On the long night-time of that town;
But light from out the lurid sea
Streams up the turrets silently-
Gleams up the pinnacles far and free-
Up domes- up spires- up kingly halls-
Up fanes- up Babylon-like walls-
Up shadowy long-forgotten bowers
Of sculptured ivy and stone flowers-
Up many and many a marvellous shrine
Whose wreathed friezes intertwine
The viol, the violet, and the vine.
Resignedly beneath the sky
The melancholy waters lie.
So blend the turrets and shadows there
That all seem pendulous in air,
While from a proud tower in the town
Death looks gigantically down.

There open fanes and gaping graves
Yawn level with the luminous waves;
But not the riches there that lie
In each idol's diamond eye-
Not the gaily-jewelled dead
Tempt the waters from their bed;
For no ripples curl, alas!
Along that wilderness of glass-
No swellings tell that winds may be
Upon some far-off happier sea-
No heavings hint that winds have been
On seas less hideously serene.

But lo, a stir is in the air!
The wave- there is a movement there!
As if the towers had thrust aside,
In slightly sinking, the dull tide-
As if their tops had feebly given
A void within the filmy Heaven.
The waves have now a redder glow-
The hours are breathing faint and low-
And when, amid no earthly moans,
Down, down that town shall settle hence,
Hell, rising from a thousand thrones,
Shall do it reverence.
- e.a.p.

I think that the Godslayer technically only works against those gods who agreed to the compact, so archangels, Cernunnos, and Nemed would be immune. Of course, to enter creation the angels probably have to submit to some restrictions (and we do know that Basium is mortal now).

But Auric Ascended isn't immune to the Godslayer, no? Neither he is a reincarnation of Mulcarn, who simply disappeared. The only thing they share is the Precept of Winter.

So I suppose that the Compact apply to the keepers of the Precepts, regardless of their identity (as Gods see more importance to the former than the latter anyway).



And yes, it's probably abusing loopholes, entering Erebus as the Infernals do. But maybe they could argue that if mortals are foolish enough to summon them, the Creation is already filled with Despair, making Erebus basically just another possession of Agares. So they are "morally" right to enter Creation with limited powers. :satan:

I’ve assumed that the Compact is less a physical law of the universe and more of a social or statutory agreement among the powers limiting direct divine intervention, although it has qualities of both and agreements among formative powers amount to physical laws, at least from a mortal viewpoint. This would account for the loopholes, and would also allow for some form of horsetrading (“You get to bring in Sphener, but we can pull in Meshabber latter”), and allows for the Compact to be interpreted to include Auric and other parties who did not initially sign it.

As for why Auric is vulnerable to the Godslayer and not Basium or Hyborem, I have two possible answers. One is that Auric becomes a god whereas Basium and Hyborem are both less than gods so the Godslayer simply doesn’t apply to them. Alternatively, it is possible that the sanctions for breaking the Compact differ based on who breaks and to what degree. Auric, for becoming a god walking on Erebus, receives the highest penalty in the form of the Godslayer with the utmost haste, whereas Hyborem and Basium, being “merely” divine lieutenants, will receive separate penalties that may take some time to be enforced. If their patrons are responsible for meting out these punishments then it is possible it may take a VERY long time for the hammer to come down.

Compact violations are not necessarily rare occurrences. For example, there’s a random event in the game that describes an angelic procession on a tile of land. That’s a violation of the Compact, but it doesn’t seem to necessitate use of the Godslayer. Other means may exist to discipline those who violate the contract, but the Godslayer gets the most attention because it is the ultimate sanction.

It is not a violation of the compact at all for an angel or demon to merely enter Creation. Actions they take while in creation can easily break the compact, but not if they limit these actions to effect only those whose souls their master's already own.

Basium chose to fall, and as far as the compact is concerned is now counted as a mortal rather than an angel. Hyborem did not abandon his god and so is still fully bound by the agreement. He has never broken a single clause of the Compact, although he is quite skilled at walking the fine line of keeping every letter of the law while violating its intent. Also, in the scenarios we find that Hyborem did not invade Erebus of his own volition, but was summoned and bound to this plane by the rituals of those working for Os-Gaballa.


While in the game the Godslayer can be used to defeat Auric Ascended, in the scenarios he was instead defeated by the Netherblade. I'm not sure how canonical it is that an ascended mortal is vulnerable to the godlayer.

It's probably just for gameplay balance reasons that the Godslayer kills Auric. The Sidar's hero (I forget his name) has the Netherblade.

Hyborem did not abandon his god and so is still fully bound by the agreement. He has never broken a single clause of the Compact, although he is quite skilled at walking the fine line of keeping every letter of the law while violating its intent.
Well, Sphener still serves Junil, even though he's fallen as far as the Compact is concerned. Surely, Hyborem wouldn't balk at using a similar loophole, if it was to his advantage.

Also, Hyborem never belonged to Agares the same way other archangels belonged to their gods. Hyborem wasn't created ex nihilo to represent his god's sphere, and Agares seems to encourage competition amongst his minions, rather than appointing Hyborem any special position or privilege. Further, he was created from the twisted reflection of Cernunnos as he attacked Agares, acting against the orders of Sucellus and without his ara. Is it possible that Hyborem never had Agares' ara at all?