Discuss here the next 3 techs to be researched.

This OP will be updated and together with both other Turnsession 5 Discussion threads boil down to the Turnsession 5 instruction thread, about 48 hrs prior to Turnsession 5

Already researched:

Fishing
The Wheel
Pottery
Writing
Agriculture
Animal Husbandry
Hunting
Archery
Mining
Bronze Working

Tech path under discussion

Seems everyone agrees up to now on Alphabet first, then we'll see what's available at the tech market.
As second tech, Math and currency have been suggested

I think we should research sailing and mathematics for overseas trade, lighthouse and galleys as well as 50 % bonus forest chops to boost the build-up.

Otherwise, I agree with BCLG100 that Alphabet would be a wise choice, both for intelligence and research purposes.

I think alpha should go first, the other two aren't a neccessity whilst the key bonus of having alphabet early is that you can trade it around for more. Most of the time the AI research sailing for us anyways as its a pre req for calendar.

I would go alpha-math(if everyone else really wants it)-whatever (perhaps currency/beeline to monarchy if we don't have it).

I don't think sailing is that key, we can explore the same by building a workboat whilst it will take awhile for us to actually find a sea trade route. That and i assume our capital is busy building more important things (workers/settlers/etc).

Do we have monarchy? perhaps that could be a beeline after alpha, for the whole making use of the amount of food we have on this map and growing the cities really big! Also if we get alpha early, we can probably get a couple of the religious techs in exchange for writing/some other tech we have that the AI don't.

We may want to consider getting Alphabet and trading with Hatty BEFORE we declare war, as it looks like our only trading partner for awhile will be Lincoln.

Knowing more of the map, I feel that we can delay Iron working more. If we can take out Hatty or at least stunt her growth, we have a large portion of the island to ourselves, and should be able to settle Iron a little later.

If we go Alphabet -> Math/Sailing, those are more expensive techs and should cover NZL's play session.

AK: you discovered a new neighbour with whom we can trade when we get sailing and build a galley, but i will add your suggestion to the OP

As I said before, we cannot contact that new neighbor unless one of 2 things happen:

The neighbor's city borders expand into the ocean so that we can contact via galley (this is most likely).

We found a city such that our borders will extend into the ocean next to theirs.

We can't simply sail a galley over there.

I agree with AK here, Alphabet would be a natural choice now, so we can figure out a more intelligent research plan, based on continental synergies, after Alphabet, we should do sailing and mathematics.

We should trade all techs with Spain we can, then declare war. That is the wisest way.

Hinduism and traded techs, then declare war.

Hmmm....I can live with Alphabet first. (I wish I could view the screanshots from work, bah) Anyway, after that, why not go for Construction? I think Lincoln will have Sailing soon. If we're not going for CoL any time soon, then why not go Alphabet -> Math -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Construction? Trading for IW and Sailing later? Then you would go for Aesthetics -> Literature to possibly build the Great Library to start breading Scientists? If we don't need the scientists, then Go for Monarchy -> Feudalism -> Machinery -> Civil Service -> Engineering.

Sorry, I know this was about turn session 5, but I like to look further down stream too.

Its ok to look downstream, but we can only commit to one tech-line for a session. Things may happen that revise our plans.

Btw, Lincoln won't trade techs with us if we have the Slavery civic, something to keep in mind if we adopt slavery in a revolution.

Btw, Lincoln won't trade techs with us if we have the Slavery civic, something to keep in mind if we adopt slavery in a revolution.

This is very true! I have gotten off the slavery crutch unless I absolutely need it. Lincoln crusades against Slavery, but he has no problem with State Property or Theocracy....hmmmm....Greater of the Evils I guess...

Provo, looking to the immediate future, I would say Alphabet->Math->Currency Mo Money!

I looked at the save and a couple of interesting points to be considered.

We can trade resources with Lincoln already, which means he has sailing. This makes it less important in my opinion, as we could trade for it eventualy and we already are connected to him.

Lincoln is in slavery himself:lol:. i just kind of think this is odd, partiuclaily if he gets pissed at us at doing something he already is doing.

I looked at the save and a couple of interesting points to be considered.

We can trade resources with Lincoln already, which means he has sailing. This makes it less important in my opinion, as we could trade for it eventualy and we already are connected to him.

Lincoln is in slavery himself:lol:. i just kind of think this is odd, partiuclaily if he gets pissed at us at doing something he already is doing.

That hypocrit!!!! :mad: :lol:

Good catch on the sailing thing, Blastoid! I bet Lincoln gets IW soon too :)

Indeed, that slavery hypocrite thing would rename him "Missing Lincoln"

I bet Lincoln gets IW soon too
And i bet he doesn't want to trade that with us

And i bet he doesn't want to trade that with us

Good thing we have Elephants...and wont be converting to Slavery soon...

what do we trade with hatty? Military techs???? It does not seem too sensible just prior to a war.

no worries, she cannot apply horses anyways, if there are no horses.

Alphabet - Currency

I support Alphabet for now, and I will consider another tech later.

Hmmm....I can live with Alphabet first. (I wish I could view the screanshots from work, bah) Anyway, after that, why not go for Construction? I think Lincoln will have Sailing soon. .

Lincoln does have sailing I think. He has resource network with us which means he can trade up the river, which if I am right, means he has sailing.

if I am right with this, I do not see a reason to research sailing ourselves, as we can trade for it.

I think Alphabet is good for now, I would like to milk spain for all she is worth in tech. She has monotheism (organized religon).

After that I like mathmatics and those C techs right behind it (currency, calender, construction)

I agree with Blastoid on proposed tech route.

Alphabet would take a full 30 turns, that is about two complete turn-sessions, or one if we manage to give good complete orders for the session. I think doing 30 turns in one bout would make sense, so we can have a longer round discussing which trades to make etc. after Alphabet is researched.

To be honest, all that needs to be done, is to scout the last patches of unmapped land, and to train our horsearchers on barbarian units and animals around. If we research alphabet, that means production lines in the three cities we got for 30 turns each, as well as worker orders. Quite possibly we need a last settler for a fourth city made in Arete, and fill in the gap around cow and silks, interlinking Arete, New Giruvegan and Warlord City.

Production would then look like this:

Arete: Horseman Archer (2), Horseman Archer (6), Archer (2), Settler (6) Library or Workers
New Giruvegan: Worker, Monument, Worker, Granary
Warlord city: Monument, Barracks, Archer, Stables Horseman Archer
New City: Monument

I don't like the idea of waiting 30 turns to attack, hatty, by all means reasearch alphabet, but do not put off the war because of it

Maybe we should take an immediate tech goal that gives us closure, that fits in with the intended war with Hatty?

Kind of shame, Monotheism and so on would be hard to trade if we start the war too soon.

Theres nothing to say that we have to destroy her with the inital war effort... Sue for peace after a bit taking all her tech and then wait to 10 turns to kill her.

I would advise against switching to Slavery prior to the first planned pop rush as well because that Slave Revolt random event only checks your current civic, not weather you've been pop rushing.

Whatever tech we get from her would be the last since vassal states tech is too far away, so I think we're better off planning a war around destroying her. Besides which I lfind it easier to convince an AI to capitulate (once that tech is adviable) than to just hand over a tech.

Alphabet - Currency

Someday I'm going to have to look into this love for currency thing. I think an experiment may be in order, unless there is already a strategy article.


The "love for currency" thing is for Provolution's sake, to show he's not the only one who has fixations that I notice. :)

Deja vu...

Please post all available techs for the next 2-3 techs in the path, and the number of turns to complete each one based on current economy. This is essential data for any tech discussion for anyone who wants to discuss it without opening the game first!

Seems like I have to make the same comment about every 3 weeks or so. ;)

I would do you a favor and just post it myself, but it will be hours before I can get to it.

Alphabet- See what we can trade for.
Iron working is needed to start clearing jungle so I wouldn't put it on the backburner. I think Math is a good second choice followed by Curreny-IW if we can't trade for either.

EDIT- Sorry DS I can't open the save right now. Will post turns when I get home tomorrow.

I agree to Daveshacks suggestion to poll all available and PROPOSED tech routes (up to 30 turns) with the number of estimated research turns behind.

Attached is an ingame screenshot of what we can research, furthermore, i switched some tiles around all 3 cities just to see what was possible, and we can reduce alphabet to 23 turns without major sacrifice of production or growth.

23 turns sound good, what if we squeeze sailing in there too (ahead of Alphabet), in case we want to build a wonder (Great Lighthouse or Moai Statues), how do you think about that?

Edit, we need Masonry AND sailing etc. So forget that detour, we need Alphabet now, and I am sure Arete would need to produce two horseman archers, archer, settler and then something else (Monument for qualifying for Statue of Zeus, which require 3 monuments), or library, or workers, or other settlers. Shwedagon Paya is also a great option, if we can get our hands on Aesthetics.

It seems Aesthetics is the best trigger for these wonders anyhow, and I think the race for GL is already started.

23 turns sound good, what if we squeeze sailing in there too (ahead of Alphabet), in case we want to build a wonder (Great Lighthouse or Moai Statues), how do you think about that?

I think building the GL at this stage of the game is an immense waste of hammers at this point in the game for very little reward.

edit- Provo's changed his mind, so disregard this post.

I posted I withdrew the proposal after a closer look, which is why I was calling for Alphabet only, if you saw the edit before you posted.

I agree to Daveshacks suggestion to poll all available and PROPOSED tech routes (up to 30 turns) with the number of estimated research turns behind.

Actually, I was suggesting that we post the number of turns for the techs we can reach by any path, out to paths 2-3 techs deep. The paths don't need to be enumerated, just the number of turns to research each tech. For example, in order to propose Alphabet->Currency, someone needs to click on currency in the F6 screen and post how many turns it will take. Don't worry about adding together the techs in the path -- not the total for Alphabet+Currency, just the number for Alphabet by itself (23) and the number for Currency by itself (an unknown amount).

But I won't argue against polling the proposed paths. ;) Even if it's just an informational poll that the Triad is free to use or ignore.

Once again I'm stuck not being able to propose a path right now because the screenshot only shows the 1st tier, not the techs that can be reached past that point and their number of turns, and I'm away from my game computer for another 9 or so hours.

And I really want to see options which include the 2nd or 3rd tech still being researched at the end of the window, however long it is. If we restrict ourselves to choosing things that can be completed in 30 turns, we do the nation a huge disservice.

I was merely pointing out a gameplay angle to this, as 23 turns, alphabet takes, according to NZL, would be a good fit for a session, since we then can do the trades and main Spanish War during KWPs session.

It will actually finish faster than 23, as we will grow.

We should also discuss what we're willing to trade away. It can be beneficial to have Alphabet as a monopoly for a while to prevent the other civs from cooperating with each other and leaving us behind -- in which case we don't necessarily trade when we get Alphabet, but when our next tech comes.

Which BTW is a useful thing about CoL, it makes great trade material given its principal benefit comes from being first to it. :rolleyes:

I know, :deadhorse: , but it will be fun to see what might have been if we had gone ahead with a deep dive. :p

If we're headed toward war I still like construction.

However, looking at the last save I see there's lots of open land left to settle so I'm not sure early war makes so much sense. For a 9 civ map this doesn't seem too crowded. I might expand peacefully for a bit before we go to war. In that case, because I know some are dying for us to establish our own holy city, maybe the beeline towards COL makes sense . . .

What are our short and intermediate term strategies? Those should guide our tech decisions.

Seeing as the AI generally prioritises math, IW and monarchy above CoL anyways we can quite easily make that after completing Alpha. Another useful trading chip we could research is aesthetics. I think our biggest chip will be HBR.

What are our short and intermediate term strategies? Those should guide our tech decisions.
That's the answer I've been trying to get too. :) It really should be about where we want the next 100 or 200 turns to go. Builder vs warmonger, and CE vs SE, and wonders or not, are all big picture things which vastly change the value of techs and builds.

I would support Aesthetics, since S. Paya and Statue of Zeus has gold and ivory making double speed to build them. This is our main window of opportunity with the absence of marble and stone. We can then trade aesthetics for other techs etc.

I think our short term strategy is to prepare for war with Spain, long ahead of their UUs and UBs, as well as making sure all possible trades are done before we kill them off, utilizing our Alphabet monopoly.

That's the answer I've been trying to get too. :) It really should be about where we want the next 100 or 200 turns to go. Builder vs warmonger, and CE vs SE, and wonders or not, are all big picture things which vastly change the value of techs and builds.

All that is new Faction Platforms material no? Since there will be new PF elections soon..

If we're headed toward war I still like construction.

However, looking at the last save I see there's lots of open land left to settle so I'm not sure early war makes so much sense. For a 9 civ map this doesn't seem too crowded. I might expand peacefully for a bit before we go to war. In that case, because I know some are dying for us to establish our own holy city, maybe the beeline towards COL makes sense . . .

What are our short and intermediate term strategies? Those should guide our tech decisions.

The reasoning behind the war with Spain is opportunity. She is weak regarding her lack of copper and horses and we are strong because of our early Horse Archers. We currently have all the techs we need to take her out so I disagree that (a) we should wait to expand before we go to war, and (b) we should make a beeline for CoL. Alphabet seems a much better choice as we will gain a religion from our war with Hatty.

The reasoning behind the war with Spain is opportunity. She is weak regarding her lack of copper and horses and we are strong because of our early Horse Archers. We currently have all the techs we need to take her out so I disagree that (a) we should wait to expand before we go to war, and (b) we should make a beeline for CoL. Alphabet seems a much better choice as we will gain a religion from our war with Hatty.

How do we know Spain lacks copper and horses? We don't even know the location of her cities! We certainly don't know what troops she has. For all we know her capital is built on copper and she has spears in every city! Horse archers have their uses, but not against spears.

If indeed she lacks both of these resources - and some scouting will tell us - and has nothing but archers, then indeed the opportunity to attack her early is there. But are we better off attacking early, or building more infrastructure (and strength) and attacking her when we can take her out in just a few turns? There's been talk of a two-stage war; the first stage merely steal a worker and pillage her back to the stone age; a second, much later, more bloody stage when we annex her. I'm not sure if the opportunity to steal one or two workers is worth the trouble of having an enemy-for-life (short as we plan Hatty's life to be) on our doorstep.

If Hatty is indeed weak and we can annex her all at once and in the near future, I'm fine with that. I guess all I'm trying to say is an awful lot of our plans are built on speculation - wishful thinking in some cases, I believe - and we could be royally screwing ourselves if circumstances aren't as we imagine them to be.

If Hatty has horses, it won't matter too much. Horse Archers can beat War Chariots any day, and in fact, would likely be easier to beat in cities. Given that the copper very near her hasn't been settled yet (presumably, looking at her city placement), it's fairly safe to assume she doesn't have copper. However, we'll find that out very soon.

How do we know Spain lacks copper and horses? We don't even know the location of her cities! We certainly don't know what troops she has. For all we know her capital is built on copper and she has spears in every city! Horse archers have their uses, but not against spears.

I am going by the espionage assessments (hasn't adopted slavery, took the Dye city instead of copper which she would have done had she researched BW, etc.) I agree I may have overspoke, I should have said "more then likely doesn't have....". I happen to agree with you that we should not have a proxy war for worker/pillage. We either go for her throat (if she doesn't have copper) or wait til we have Iron for Swords if she does.

All that is new Faction Platforms material no? Since there will be new PF elections soon..

I think if we research the wrong thing after Alphabet, we will have broken the ability to choose a strategy, or made it unnecessarily difficult.

Someday I'm going to have to look into this love for currency thing. I think an experiment may be in order, unless there is already a strategy article.


The "love for currency" thing is for Provolution's sake, to show he's not the only one who has fixations that I notice. :)


The same can be said about your love for (Code of) Laws :)

Interesting discussion on the use of courthouses (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=272807)

The same can be said about your love for (Code of) Laws :)

Interesting discussion on the use of courthouses (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=272807)

It works even in comparison with markets, slightly more expensive to build but a substantially better outcome.

Seeing as the AI generally prioritises math, IW and monarchy above CoL anyways we can quite easily make that after completing Alpha. Another useful trading chip we could research is aesthetics. I think our biggest chip will be HBR.

CoL just makes more and more sense, honestly. Let's poll it. I think everyone here has voice enough arguments for it. The poll should say something to the effect of:

After Alphabet, what should we research next?

Code of Laws
Mathematics (going then for Construction or Currency)
Aesthetics
Monarchy
Other

Allow it to run for a few days, then allow plurality to dictate.

IMHO, Code of Laws is makeing more and more sense. Then with Aesthetics, we can trade even more.

MONARCHY!!!! For Personal reasons...

One problem with the whole trading argument though...Outside of Hatty, we only know of Lincoln, and it will be a while until we meet the Inca (the goldish border).

What's North of Lincoln's lands? Oceans? Again, sorry that I can't access Photobucket :(

Anyway, let's poll it and get on with the game :)

I say we wait until after the turn session to poll it. By then we should know for sure if we are to invade Spain. As it is still speculation until we confirm she has no spears. If we cannot invade then I will jump ship to CoL. If we are to invade then it would not be first on my list.

Inca (the goldish border).

Looks like Mali's border, Inca is a bright yellow colour, Mali as a brown yellow border line.

Also, we will see what we can trade for after we get Alphabet, which might influence our decision.

Looks like Mali's border, Inca is a bright yellow colour, Mali as a brown yellow border line.

You may be right...I really need to download the latest save and check it out on my computer rather than via the screenshots.

Mali is a better trade partner. Huayna is someone I try to "keep small" in my games.

I would be fine with polling after the Alphabet session.

Mali is a better trade partner.
EDIT: Disregard what I said, I forgot about unrestricted leaders.

Remember that Mansa Musa is almost definitely not the leader of the Mali, so it might be someone like Toku, who will not trade with us (ha, the irony of meeting Tokugawa when we're Japanese!)

EDIT: Disregard what I said, I forgot about unrestricted leaders.

Remember that Mansa Musa is almost definitely not the leader of the Mali, so it might be someone like Toku, who will not trade with us (ha, the irony of meeting Tokugawa when we're Japanese!)

Farquawd! You're right, bah...maybe it will be the Lovely Elizabeth who trades your the clothes off her back for your shiney rocks? God, I hope it's not Montezuma or Shaka, lol!

That mysterious border looks like Holy Rome to me.

A thought on our ability to tech trade with Alphabet.

I may be wrong but I seem to remember that an AI will usualy only trade techs that it knows at least one civ already has, it likes to keep hold of its monopolies. Looking at espieonage pt distribution it look like neither Lincoln or hatty has made contact with anybody else, if this is the case they may not be so forthcoming with trading.


Personally I am for mathmatics after trading, but that is mainly because i see early war, even one without taking cities as the way to go. Also Mathmatics gives us a lot of flexability (3 strong and usefull techs behind it).


Ps. I think we should take bets on the identity of the mystery Civ. I will give a great stead toi whoever can correctly guess the civ and the leader :):)

The same can be said about your love for (Code of) Laws :)

Interesting discussion on the use of courthouses (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=272807)

Thanks for the article. Nice sig. ;)

Anyhow, for now all we need to do is to agree on Alphabet, then we reassess the situation after we have done the technology trades, and then we know what to research next.