Here's the text of a letter I just sent to Aloha:

Hi Aloha,

I will be playing the save Monday morning. Anything I should be aware of? It seems as if some of the trade arrangements were negotiated through PMs or people's personal emails, which never got communicated into the Piffle forums. So please let me know (with exact copies of the communications) if I'm supposed to do something. 'Cause right now there's no mention of anything pending.

Much of this has already been said, but I want us to proceed with no hesitation about where we stand:
Epsilon must be nuked.
Manhattan Project is 13 (i think) turns from completion
Combustion must be researched
Rockets must be researched
Artillery (you already have)

We are a couple turns from democracy and a revolt. The revolt may take 2 turns, depending on how the economy works out to maximize cash-rushing civics.

It will make the most sense for us to coordinate research. What are you currently doing? I'm hoping you say that you're 1 turn from completing Combustion. If that's the case, we can do Industrialism or Flight. Then one of us does radio, and we turn research off for the rest of the game.

The big question I now have is, should we be assisting Innovia with gifts of troops? Piffle can't afford an open war with Epsilon - just look at the trade screen. I'm really concerned about how our economies are going to be hit when we declare on Epsilon and can't get resources from Innovia because they are dead. Is there a way we can keep them alive until we have nukes?

Please let me know your thoughts on all these points. We have GOT to coordinate. It clearly should have happened long ago, but perhaps cooler heads can now prevail.

Death to Epsilon,
Peter the Piffle

Message received from Robboo:

OK Peter. lets move beyond what happened in the past. I will tell you teh situation as casey left it. If that doesnt fit your ideas lets work on a new deal.

KC and I were working on getting nukes. They gave me gpt to get arty as fast as I can and thats when the wheels fell off in the game. Now we are working on radio. I want bombers to support a land invasion.

So what will it be. KC had talked about getting us up to tech parity otherwise we will not be part of the nuking. I will support you with a land invasion BUT not with nukes as things stand now.

Arty was funded by you guys. If this end sour cooperation then thats up to you. I dont want to dwell on what happened between KC and I. I rather hear what you propse as a way of taking out Epsilon or at least making them pay a bit.

You can respond to aloha's email or from the email I am sending this from. Both come to me.

Robboo the second and last Alohan

...to which I replied:

Hi Rob

I'm all for going nucular, but I'm a little in the dark about where Rocketry was going to be coming from. Were you guys going to research that? Was Innovia? The reason I ask is that there's no sense in Piffle building the Manhattan Project if we can't get to Rocketry.

Going against Epsilon without nukes will be futile. There's really no way to make any headway against their vast resource base. They have tons of pop, tons of MFG, and can run at over 1000 gpt with science turned off. A land invasion has to be supplemented by nukes.

So how do bombers fit into all of this? The closest town to Epsilon is Brilliant!, if I'm not mistaken. But even Brilliant! isn't close enough to hit anything, right? And just between you and me, Epsilon had a spy there the last I saw ;)

I still haven't heard back from Innovia about any of this - I wrote you guys a joint letter. I'm hoping that some of the friction between Piffle and Innovia will be softened by the changes going on.

This letter is rambling all over, so let me be blunt: If the three of us don't cooperate then we're each just fighting for second place. What fun is that? I'd rather the three of us Ally, behave as one organism against the threat of an Epsilon victory.

To do that, though, we need to slow Epsilon's progress against Innovia. Do you think they're past the point of salvation? Should we commit troops to help them over there? How quickly could you get units to them? Piffle could get forces there in about 5 turns.

But I keep coming back to the Nuke plan. I really think it could work. Double nuke a couple of cities, and sail in with some ground troops. Raze everything in sight. Have you ever done a nuclear war? I've only done them after I stopped caring about a game, so I really don't remember the details of the fallout and stuff. I know it can't be cleaned until Ecology, and I'm pretty sure Epsilon doesn't have that yet.

:salute:

Rob wrote back:
Rockets was supposed to be yours to get as far as I know. KC was always stecthy about details. IT made for a difficult alliance. Whats your suggestions.

I have done a nuke war adn your right on ecology. What ever we do however we need to do it quickly. MAyevb KC had a Great person route to rockets. I really dont know. I say do manhatten till one turn left then shelf it till we get rockets

My bomber plan is for my own protection and once we establish a beach head there we can then send in bombers. We also have to deal with their navy for me to get across. I saw my first non wooden boat from them last turn. So they have an advantage their too....

Innovia doesnt want us to send troops..last I heard I have been gifting them techs like arty to hopefully help. I asked them last turn to delay as long as possible so we can get our nuke plan operational.

LEt me know whats teh course of action


I replied with this, just after sending the save:
Hi all!

Piffle has proposed a health trade: Your bananas for our Wheat. If you can't part with the bananas, we understand. But a little more health would be nice for us.

Democracy will be done in 2. At that point, we'll have to stop the gold per turn gift, so as to accumulate as much cash as possible for rushing nukes. Manhattan is 12 turns away, and rockets is 7 running flat out. So the earliest we can do anything at all is in 13 turns: 1745. In that time, I expect Epsilon to have completed plastics. That's not good news, as you can see from the screenshot. They already have Industrialization, which means that by the time we are hitting them, they're going to have Tanks. We wont. We will have gunship capability, but Piffle doesn't have too many cities that are suitable for pumping out units. I guess we're going to go into a cash-rush economy.

Your city Renew is in bombing range of Sanctuary West. That's really good news, as I've discovered that Brilliant! is within bombing range of Argyle's Watch, Mighty Bulwark, and Sunset Fortress. Of those, Mighty Bulwark is the one we really want to raze: look at it closely on the map, as long as you have building turned on in globe view. There's some juicy targets in there!

I understand your desire for Radio, but bombers aren't defensive units in this game. If you really want to defend yourselves you'll get Combustion first. How long is it going to take you to finish Radio? After all, you can build subs with Radio and Combustion, which will really help keep their flotillas from your shores.

All the Best,
Peter the Piffle

Rob wrote back:

... Maybe KC had a Great person route to rockets. I really dont know ...

I replied with this, just after sending the save:

... we'll have to stop the gold per turn gift, so as to accumulate as much cash as possible for rushing nukes ...The last PM that I got from KC said something about using a cash infusion from Aloha to do 100% research on Rocketry.

After all, you can build subs with Radio and Combustion, which will really help keep their flotillas from your shores.I don't normally fool with subs, so I'm not sure ... But I thought they were easy prey for Destroyers. :dunno:

Subs really should be renamed as 'harbor mines'. They work best when stumbled upon - other than that, their only purpose in the game seems to be to sneak spies into enemy territory. They are very good at that.

But planting a couple of subs on a fish tile is almost always worth the investment - if the pillaging destroyer happens to withdraw, he is easy prey for your other sub. :evil:

ps - I'm glad to see some input here :) Hopefully we'll get more and more if the game speeds up.

Message from Robboo:

OK.. that sounds good. i will send the banana's

I think its 10 or 12 on radio. Subs was what i was looking for for ships defense. The bombers where my air support . At the time I started it, it appeared aloha was alone. The GPT was meant as a short term gift to get arty we had more invested in it than piffle.

The tanks are a problem, but gunships would make a big defense. Can you build railroads from the closest city all the way to Epsilon. We can jump on those and get things over quickly.

I am glad we are working together...any word from innovia

....to which I responded:
No, no word from Innovia. I am going to approach them again now.

Railroading all the way up to Epsilon can't be done in secret. The best way to accomplish that is on the very turn of the attack. you know - chain gangs :) But that will require around 20 workers. Still, since rails only provide 10 moves, that doesn't get us all that close. But you know, I'm only going from memory here. When I get a chance to open the save, I'll certainly look into that.

Have you looked inside Mighty Bulwark?.. Done the math?.. Look at the civics?.. MB is a vital organ of the Epsilonian Economy. Don't take my word for it, though. Look for yourself. That city is going to be a crucial one to eliminate. Neither of us can take it, as the risks of losing it back to Epsilon are too great. Mighty Bulwark must be razed.

So, Radio in 10 or 12... that's going to come in around when Rocketry and Manhattan comes in.... Perhaps Piffle should delay the completion of those a few turns so that Aloha can get some more military arranged?

Death to Epsilon,
Peter the Piffle

Short note from Rob:

I am finishing up a round of infrastructure right now...then i can go pure military I will need some transports and will start on them.

We were in shambles and near collapse but Piffle let us off the hook. I have rebuilt and fixed as much as I can but we still are not in a great position to provide loads of military. You will get what I can everything that I can give. Nukes will be the equalizers hopefully.

This is discouraging, indeed! It makes me think our assault on Epsilon will fizzle after the first turn. Ugh!

Proposed note to Aloha:
Greetings!
We've just completed Democracy, and so the home stretch to Nukes is at hand :) We'll have Manhattan Project in 11 turns (1755ad), so the plan should be to nuke the Eppies in 1760.

Perhaps it makes the most sense, considering the turn order, for us to gift you as much military as we can spare, so that we do the nuking and you do the invading. We've got a ship driving up your western coast right now. We could gift you those units shortly. The trick will be to do it outside of the watch of Epsilon - any ideas on that?

One other thing you should be aware of: We signed a "no boats within range" agreement with Epsilon. We can't move Galleons or Transports to within their movement range of Epsilon's shore. Because of this it would be very difficult for us to stage an invasion without them having advance knowledge.

Please let us know your thoughts,
Peter the Piffle

Aloha should be sending us gold back, really they should have sent us gold back once they got arty. They really need to send us every spare bit they have.

I can talk to Rob a bit and find out some info from him.

We need to settle on an attack plan: up coast through the rails or attack by ship or both?

If you can talk to Rob, please do! I don't really have a relationship with him. By my count, they've had Artillery for at least 4 turns, which means 167 * 4 = 668 gold, or almost 3 nukes :D

My idea for an attack is for us to nuke, and them to invade by ship. But I'm completely open to other ideas.

You gonna send some gold back our way in the MTDG? How much? We need to get to rocketry asap as Epsilon now is getting oil. Our window is gone if they get any more battleships.

Thanks for sending that, KC :)

I feel like they took some advantage of us during our change of Turnplayer. I didn't realize that they were only supposed to be getting cash to fund Artillery until a few days ago (about 2 turns ago). I really don't want to sour our relations, as we need them to hit Epsilon after we nuke them :evil:

can you cancel the deal..I will try to cancel it then see what I can spare. Glad to see you back in action, can you arrange us to get all your techs.

You gonna send some gold back our way in the MTDG? How much? We need to get to rocketry asap as Epsilon now is getting oil. Our window is gone if they get any more battleships.
Talk to Peter he is running the show as he is the msot dependable player we have. Im merely a mouthpiece. Will you be in position to attack Epsilon at the right time? 10 turns maybe? I think we all need to have a sitdown to plan this here (attempted) assassination

Message sent to Aloha with the 1710 save:
A quick update:
We're 10 turns from nuking Epsilon - 8 turns left on Rockets and Manhattan, a turn to build nukes, the next to use them.

We're gifting you units to assist in your invasion. They've got loads of battleships (as we're sure you're aware), so expect to lose anything that sits in the water after declaring war!

Best,
Peter

Proposed note to Aloha:

Hey guys,
We just sent you 1730. We will be nuking Epsilon on 1760. We are 5 turns from Manhattan Project and Rocketry to complete, and we'll be nuking Epsilon on the very next turn. You should be arranging your invasion force, taking care that Epsilon doesn't see the obvious. You know how to see where their spies are, right?

Also, there are even more battleships in the water than the last time we wrote. You're going to have to stack as many frigates as possible on your galleons. We need to discuss which cities to hit with nukes, so that your invasion force has a chance to land directly into a city. We definitely need to hit Mighty Bulwark, but that's not on the coast. We're also looking at taking out their Uranium and Oil. That's already 3 nukes, and we expect to have only 8 on the first turn. How would you like us to deploy the others?

Please get back to us with a detailed battle plan - we can't do this with short and sweet letters :)

-Piffle
EDIT: Sent 6/5/08

Response from Aloha - unfortunately, less detail than I had hoped for:

NO how can you see their spies.

I think you should concentrate hitting those cities which are connections to Mighty Bulwark. I will look and see what city I can reach on the1 turn. That will be my main target(s). You nuke I attack then they get the turn... I will say this..We are not in any position to stop a counterattack unless I can get a sub or two out. Which I dont think will be possible since my main production cities are coastal or close enough. HOWEVER... it will be what it will be, lets kick some epsilon butt


Well, I had hoped for good punctuation, at the very least :lol:

Okay, proposed response:

To see any nation's spies, zoom out to the 'above the clouds' view. Choose the Strategic Layer. That's the one with the homeric helmet (2nd from the left, if I recall correctly). From the pop-up menu, choose Domestic. This layer will show you the positions of certain units (as long as you have line of sight): settlers, workers, Great People, air units (fighters & bombers, no matter what their mission), and, most curiously, SPIES. This has been reported to have been fixed in a patch, but obviously the report was wrong. Epsilon currently has a Spy, named "The Queen" just outside the cultural borders of Brilliant!. Your Frigate should give you line of sight. It's an unrailroaded tile just east of our rail line terminus. We don't know if she's moving inside our territory every turn to investigate Brilliant, but we have to assume she is. We don't have line of sight into Aloha lands, so we can't tell you if Epsilon! has a spy there, but it's safe to assume they do.


As far as the war plans go, only attacking one city assures defeat. You need to hit at least two, preferably three. If that can't be done, then perhaps we need a different strategy.

Best,
Peter the Piffle



Am I being too hard on them? Should I divulge the secret of ferretting out spies?? :dunno:

EDIT: Sent 6/7/08

Response from Aloha 6/7:

OK I was waitign for this reply before playing. I will look see in the save and get back to you. I think I casn hit 2 or 3, but there will be some risk involved with possible ship destruction especially if they have subs lurking or ships that I dont see. i have been trackign their movements adn think I have accounted for all of teh ships. BUT i know they are a sneaky lot.
- Show quoted text -

Follow-up from Aloha 6/8:
Ok they have a spy in Aloha.

Here is what I see we can hit We can hit Sanctuary West and Argyles Watch.

I suggest hitting a nuke in each. In addition if you guys can attack Sunset fortress on the same turn you launch with land forces you will be in a position to go after mighty bulwark. Other cities I would target for nukes other than the capital would be Eternal Eye and Scion City Both are on the logical paths of troop to reinforce the cities we are attacking.

I need a 3 turn warning prior to launch. Things will be moving around to confuse the obvious. I got troops cutting circles in my territory and ships doing the same. None are more than 2 turns from their jumping off point.

I'll play in about 6 hours, at which point we'll be able to see what Epsilon did to their navy :scared:

I think it would operate best if we told Robboo what cities to hit and when. We also need to hit the UN city wherever it may be. If we kill enough pop they cant win by UN anyways I guess, but we need to keep them from building it for as long as possible so they cant rearrange tiles for growth and just replace the pop quicklike.

Sketchy my butt, I told him exactly the plan. Its around here somewheres; I'll find it.

PM from Robboo to me:


So when do you lanuch. I guess our co-operation has come to an end since I will be defending. When is launch turn so I can watch the forums for their reaction. They dealing with me may allow you to hit them hard.

I find this letter profoundly annoying. Perhaps it's because it's so humid here today, but I just want to scream at them: Not only have we told them several times about the timing of our strike, but they also have the nerve to lay the assault in our lap - right after we gifted them a bajillion units!! How on earth do respond to this diplomatically? :gripe:

Response sent to Robboo's PMbox:

Hi Rob,

On the contrary, I'd say that our cooperation is even more important now! You can't bail the plan to defend your core - rather, you still need to preserve a capability to hit their coast. Otherwise there's no point at all in nuking them. We gifted you guys just about every unit we had. I think there are about 10 units scattered around our cities, and that's about it.

As for the timing, it's in about 6 or 7 turns. I'm going to play the save in about 24 hours, so I'll send you another update.

It would really help us if you were able to give us as much detail as possible about their invasion: how many units, where, can you still see their navy, etc. Screenshots are probably the easiest way to do this.

Or are you considering suing for peace? Any techs that we have traded between us are off-limits in a peace deal, obviously.

Best,
Peter

Another PM from Robboo:

The killed one city and have very few troops around now. Peace seems likely since they are talking to me still. I will see what happens.


If they sue for peace, they can't redeclare war for another 10 turns. That definitely does not fit the plan!

My PM back to Robboo:


Hi Rob,

I'd almost rather see them flood your area with units - that would mean fewer units to defend their core. But we'll have to work with what we're given.

Do you see any reason to not Nuke them? When we nuke them, will you be able to land a force at all? Or will the nuclear strike serve more to lower Epsilon's population and pollute their lands?

I guess I'm wondering, If you aren't planning on invading with the units we just gifted to you, what's the point of us nuking?

Having played the save, and seen that Aloha and Epsilon are no longer at war, I sent this message from our Gmail:


Hi,

So.... you sued for Peace - and they accepted!! What are we supposed to do now? We had a plan. We nuke, you invade. Because you offered peace, you won't be able to declare war on them for another 10 turns. So where does this leave us? We're going to nuke their cities, and no troops are going to move in behind.

Where do you see us going with this?

If you're hoping for Epsilon to secure a UN victory, then Piffle should not use our ICBM's against Epsilon. Do you agree?

I've got to admit - this is not the way I expect a partner team to work towards a common goal. Or, at least, if the goal has changed, it's best to admit that to your partner.

All the Best,
Peter the Piffle

PM Response from Robboo:

I dont have time this morning to answer this and play the save. So all I can tell you is I am doing what I can to attack. you guys havent entirely lived up to your end of the deal (tech parity??) and have also saddled us with your military costs with out us approving it.
In addition you guys promised to attack but now you say you cant.

So dont come in here and tell me that doing whats best for my civ is not whats expected form a partner civ. Our relations have been weak at best even before you took over. I had hoped that perhaps some new blood in Piffle would stop your guys from being schiziod with diplo but I see it hasnt.

Let me know what your plans are if they include us. IF not enjoy your turns till the UN.


I'm not going to respond to this right away. But here are my initial thoughts:


Hi Robboo,

I think my tone wasn't communicated accurately. I was trying to express how surprised I was to find that you guys had sued for peace when we're three turns from an attack. Having done so without consulting with your partners in the joint attack is even more shocking. It was never going to be 'Piffle's Attack', as you suggest - it was to be 'Our Attack': both our teams working in concert to stall the leader.

I'm sorry you feel that our Diplomacy has been schizoid, especially after I came on board here. I can't speak to what happened before I joined up, but I have tried to answer every letter promptly and politely, with as much detail as I can. I honestly don't know how I could have kept you guys more informed of what was going on with us, aside from screenshots.

As for not entirely living up to our end of the deal, I didn't realize that was the case. If we were supposed to be at tech parity, you could have proposed a trade at any point in the last 12 turns since I've taken over as turnplayer. I also had no idea that you objected to us gifting you our military units - after all, you had specifically requested them, saying there was no way you could attack Epsilon without boats and attackers. Besides - if you didn't want them, why not just sail them back to us and re-gift them? :confused:

If, as you say, you're still planning on attacking, I remain confused as to why you sued for peace. It really throws the whole plan out the window, as you can't attack for another 10 turns. Which means that we'll be sitting on Rocketry and Manhattan Project already being completed for a whole 7 turns before a joint attack. No, that's no good at all. Epsilon will almost certainly, if they haven't already, built SDI. If we're going to Nuke Epsilon, we really have to do it in two turns, just like the plan was all along. Do you have a different idea of how we can salvage this?

Best,
Peter

...and he has the nerve to call us schizo. :rolleyes:

I really wish this is a new development as far as the attitude of Aloha has been, but this is exactly why we buddied up with Epsilon in the beginning of the game. They change favor and direction faster than wind in a tornado. It's amazing that he's accusing us of a lack of communication when he's the one who did the peace deal 2 turns before the attack.

Robboo is just infuriating. I have no qualms if we "gift wrap" the win to epsilon just because of the pleasure it will give me to see aloha nuked.


On a more constructive note: your response is a very pointed and very well written letter. I think it gets the point across well and diplomatically, although I am unable to look at the game save to quibble over details.

Saddled them with our military costs without their approval? Good grief, that message makes me want to nuke Aloha instead of Epsilon. As pindicator says this attitude is exactly why we worked with Epsilon.

Upon opening the save, Aloha asks us what our attack plan is, and if we're still planning on nuking Epsilon. My repsonse:

Hi Guys,

We took a look at the save, and saw that you had asked us about the attack plan. Got to admit, here - you've got us completely confused as to where things stand. Are you or are you not going to follow through and attack Epsilon as soon as the minimum 10 turn cease-fire expires?

This whole arrangement has always, and continues, to hinge on your preparations. We've got nukes ready to go, but we're waiting to hear from you guys what your plan is. There's no point in us nuking Epsilon since we already sent you all the military units we had, as per your request. We've got nothing to hit them with other than nukes. So what's your plan?

-Piffle


Sent to Robboo and Aloha's gmail.

At least Dr. Jeckyll is back in the driver seat, but how much longer until Mr. Hyde shows his face?

That was a very diplomatic response you gave. I might have let my frustration show there, or flown off the handle -- somewhere between the two :)

Message in from Mr. Hyde:

The whole plan was for you guys to also provide troops in thru the land connection. Since you gusy decided otherwise I have no clue what the plan is. Use your nukes or not is up to you. Just let me know what to do after you lunch your nukes until then I see no reason to send my troops over there. We were tricked before by you guys talking trade with us then attacking and until I see actions in game that Piffle is actually following through my troops and their transports will stay in port.

So either let this game die or do something.

Hmm... Perhaps I should take some time to go over the emails since I have joined - I'm pretty sure he's wrong on several counts.

But it doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things - Epsilon's win is only a matter of time now. Any opinions on the type of response to give to this letter?

We were tricked before by you guys talking trade with us then attacking and until I see actions in game that Piffle is actually following through my troops and their transports will stay in port.Not sure if it will help, but if you need to counter Robboo you might remind him that we offered our only source of Wine and that they refused it. The trades that we were discussing at the time would have had a net zero effect for us, yet they still declined.

My guess is it won't help, though. Rather sounds like Robboo has drawn a line in the sand and intends to be stubborn about the whole attack plan. :dunno: We might be on our own on this one. :undecide:

No, I don't think Robboo has any intention of helping. I wonder if he ever did, or if Innovia were the ones who held the tenuous alliance together. Aloha probably never trusted us a bit after our invasion -- but it's not like they were exactly easy to work with before the invasion either...

And when Innovia gave up that probably took away the only team that seemed to work well with Aloha. Still, you think they would have some kind of pride it trying the only plan proposed (not like they came to the table with anything) to take down Epsilon.

Oh well, let's just nuke them.

Message sent to Aloha with the 1765 save, titled New World Order:

The geopolitical situation has changed, and we need the techs you got from Epsilon. You will be nuked if you don't. I have proposed the required trade in-game. There is not time for negotiation, so just click 'accept' so we can get this game done with.

Best,
Peter the Piffle

Response from Robboo to our gmail:

that trade was for a tech that you did not research. I did not see the need to talk to you guys since you did not respond to the diplo.

So tell me do you plan on attacking Epsilon or what. Answer this diplo first before I play any turn.

And perhaps you dont know me well enough... but treats will not get you any wheres with me. I am sitting on the turn till you respond.


:rotfl: Perhaps he hasn't opened the save yet?? Perhaps we should offer him candies instead of treats? ;)

I'll respond with a short note:

Upon opening the save, you'll find that we've proposed the necessary trade. Click accept. Then you'll see that Epsilon and Piffle are at war. You'll also note some intriguing changes in some stats, if you dig hard enough ;) We understand that we can't count on you to follow through with your part of the arrangement due to the history between you and Epsilon, so the trade will help make up for that.

To be clear, we aren't threatening you with a nuclear strike. We are informing you that you will be hit if you don't accept the trade we proposed. It is a matter of fact, not bluster.

-Piffle

Response from Robboo in our gmail:

LETs see...your team made a deal to not attack us for the remainder of the game. Now you want to change the deal because you have nukes and we traded with Epsilon. Something your team did up to Electricity. In fact much of your techs arent researched by your team. Seems very very much like bad gamesmanship and basically deciding that since you have nukes you can do what you want.

What is it with piffle.. the very name must mean dishonest and untrustworthy and convert every player there to that mindset. Your team talks trade with us one one turn then attacks the next. Now your basically saying give in to our trade or else.

Whats really kills me is that after promising tech parity you guys never were forthcomign with trades. Now when we have a tech you have to treathen us.


I am sure I have your word this time that after the trade you wont attack me... for whats thats worth.

:hmm: What should we say?

Sorry, Aloha, but the plan went out the window when you signed peace with Epsilon, preventing you from declaring war according to the alliance's plans. Accept the trade or not. You won't be attacked if you accept the trade. You will be if you don't.

I'll wait a few hours before sending this off....

Response from Robboo in our gmail:

LETs see...your team made a deal to not attack us for the remainder of the game. Now you want to change the deal because you have nukes and we traded with Epsilon. Something your team did up to Electricity. In fact much of your techs arent researched by your team. Seems very very much like bad gamesmanship and basically deciding that since you have nukes you can do what you want.

What is it with piffle.. the very name must mean dishonest and untrustworthy and convert every player there to that mindset. Your team talks trade with us one one turn then attacks the next. Now your basically saying give in to our trade or else.

Whats really kills me is that after promising tech parity you guys never were forthcomign with trades. Now when we have a tech you have to treathen us.


I am sure I have your word this time that after the trade you wont attack me... for whats thats worth.

:hmm: What should we say?

Sorry, Aloha, but the plan went out the window when you signed peace with Epsilon, preventing you from declaring war according to the alliance's plans. Accept the trade or not. You won't be attacked if you accept the trade. You will be if you don't.

I'll wait a few hours before sending this off....
I went back through the logs in the Turnplay Log and Diplomacy with Aloha. They keep bringing up the fact that we supposedly went back on our word and didnt trade them whatever techs. I specifically told Robboo if they needed a tech then to ask us. They said they couldnt build nukes so I dont see how they can complain from not getting Fission or whatever from us.

The trade proposed to Conroe in April only included 165 gpt instead of the promised 200, AND they started researching Radio or something crazy rather than build up gold to send us for BOTH teams mutual benefit (IE, give Epsilon at least some challenge). Add to the fact that they signed peace after accepting all our units well nigh on the end of the game... Pure insanity.

What is it with piffle.. the very name must mean dishonest and untrustworthy and convert every player there to that mindset.As KC notes, this does smell a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I think such a strong note deserves an equally strong response. 'Course, diplomacy isn't exactly an area where I excel. :lol:

As for us owing them techs ... I have no idea if we owe them or not. :dunno: If we owe them, I think we should send them over next turn. It'd be interesting to know the exact terms of the treaty, though. I'd just imagine that they have all of the techs that we were up on them at the end of the Aloha-Piffle war ...

The agreement after the war was tech parity, and that agreement was arranged just before I came on here. The turn before I took over, Aloha had asked for all the techs to bring them up to parity. KC played the turn, and turned down the trade because he didn't know what was going on with them. Then I took over, and not a word was mentioned about tech parity until they started complaining.... At which point I said "If we owe you something, ask for it." They did, and I accepted the trade.

He's just living in the past, man ;)

Sending the letter now...

It was "we dont care to bring you to tech parity but I have to ask the team about it," or in other words we have no reason to withhold techs from them and still dont have any such reason. All they needed to say was hey we think with RRs and stuff we can produce nukes in pretty good time so send Rocketry and Fission. I dont think anyone would have a problem with help against Epsilon which is the ENTIRE thing in the first place. Yet they have done literally nothing to stand in Eps' way. Same with Innovia. It will be interesting to see what the heck they were thinking the whole time.

I really hope he doesn't accept the trade, because I really want to see Aloha nuked. Well, I'm sure that Aloha has some nice people. But for the ones whom they appointed as diplomats, I still want to see them nuked.

It would be nice for a glimpse at their team thread, just for a curious glimpse at the insanity.

Response from Robboo:

wow... you guys told me in PM to get peace and I could trade techs for peace if we researched them

I may accept the trade I will have to see when I get in the game.


What the heck is he talking about??? Did someone here tell him in a Private Message that he could get techs for peace? I'm really confused just now. :crazyeye:

Just a quick note - he's mentioning this now as if this is the first time we've complained about his suing for peace with Epsilon. I'm pretty sure the first time I brought it up was back in the middle of June :rollseyes:

Here's what I wrote back to him / them:

Umm, I was not aware that someone from this team told you to get peace with Epsilon. If that's really the case, then I apologize for holding your team to the prior agreement. All I can say is that the alleged communication to you was never made known to any of the other Piffles. Honestly, this is the first I've heard about it! Please supply a copy of all the correspondence you have relating to this - I'm going to feel really badly if had been miscommunicating over these past few weeks!

-Peter the Piffle

Wasnt a pm from me. Who knows what he is talking about.

Repsonse from Robboo:

pete.. it was in a PM from you. Hence my confusion. So now I expect some form of restitution since you raped me with that trade.


he also sent me a PM:

HEy pete.. you sent this to me... read the last line.

Hi Rob,

On the contrary, I'd say that our cooperation is even more important now! You can't bail the plan to defend your core - rather, you still need to preserve a capability to hit their coast. Otherwise there's no point at all in nuking them. We gifted you guys just about every unit we had. I think there are about 10 units scattered around our cities, and that's about it.

As for the timing, it's in about 6 or 7 turns. I'm going to play the save in about 24 hours, so I'll send you another update.

It would really help us if you were able to give us as much detail as possible about their invasion: how many units, where, can you still see their navy, etc. Screenshots are probably the easiest way to do this.

Or are you considering suing for peace? Any techs that we have traded between us are off-limits in a peace deal, obviously.

Best,
Peter


:gripe: So it seems that my questioning his future plans was interpreted as our blessing peace between them :rolleyes: I guess I should have been clearer :wallbash:

Proposed response, pending any surprised when we open the save:
Hi Robboo,
Now I see why you thought you had our blessing for getting peace. Re-reading the letter, I obviously didn't make Piffle's position clear enough.

What was his response to that PM? Or did he respond?

Message in from Aloha:
HEy guys... can we help you at all. I am preparing to build a city north of your west most city on that narrow strip. I have moved troops there. Settler should be there soonish.

How long can you guys last against epsilon?


I'll drum up a response after I play the save.... which should be in a few hours.

Reply sent with the save:

If you want to help, we could really use our units back :)
We won't be able to last very long once Epsilon decides to really attack us. As it is, they only have one tank around. But I bet they're about to unload another 4 next turn.

There's a transport of yours with some units on it. If you want to give that to us, you must take care not to allow epsilon to attack the units. Therefore you'll need to drive the transport close to our coast, then unload the units manually. That will use up all their movement, so you may not be able to gift them to us this turn. If that's the case, you can gift them to us the following turn. We would rather have alive units next turn, than dead units this turn!

In short, we'll take any units you can muster!!

Thanks,
Peter the Piffle

We'll see what happens!

Message in from Aloha:
HEy guys... can we help you at all. I am preparing to build a city north of your west most city on that narrow strip. I have moved troops there. Settler should be there soonish.

How long can you guys last against epsilon?


I'll drum up a response after I play the save.... which should be in a few hours.
Are you sure you dont smell an a-t-t-a-c-k for 2nd place?

I thought of that, but Chappaquiddick, the city to which he's referring, was captured by Epsilon two turns ago :p

Are you sure you dont smell an a-t-t-a-c-k for 2nd place?Judging from Robboo's note in the main forum, it looks like you would be correct ...

Well, how about a bit of a pre-emptive strike? Let's nuke aloha!

The problem is, I don't know if we're going to be able to muster another Nuke :(

I'm opening the save now - I will post some screenshots shortly.

This came in yesterday from Aloha:

If you guys would have perhaps replied to this We woudlnt be where we are.

You made the threat and I delivered on my promise to make you pay. Heres is what I said...And perhaps you dont know me well enough... but treats will not get you any wheres with me. I am sitting on the turn till you respond.

Now it ends.

What's there to say? I don't see a need to respond.

We offered them treats?

We offered them treats?
:lol::lol::lol:
Milk or cookies? Tricks or treats?
Candies, breads or perhaps meats?

Where is Tubby when you need him to make a good rhyme to send back at them?

Funnier thing is that's exactly what he wrote the first time. Likely he just cut and pasted, but, still ;)

Sent with the save:

Enjoy!

...and just so we're straight here, I never let apparent hard feelings carry from one game to another

-Pete :)

If you guys would have perhaps replied to this ...Replied to what? :confused: Did we ignore a message that he sent or something?

I really think we're going to be able to make it to the end! :)Unless Epsilon sits on the vote as part of some agreement with Aloha ... :dunno:

Unless Epsilon sits on the vote as part of some agreement with Aloha ..

:scared: Gosh I hope not! That would be pretty vindictive of them... but I suppose nuking a former ally is also pretty cruel ;)

Did we ignore a message that he sent or something?
Yes and no. He had offered us a couple of trades - in each we give Rocketry, in each he only offered something inconsequential, like a luxury or a health resource. I declined the trades in the game. I suppose that's what he's on about. But I'm not positive - after all, he can be all over the place sometimes :lol:

Worked exactly as I planned...

I was trying to give you guys confusion with alternating positive and negative messages to delay you figuring out my plan to attack you guys. AND to further the time frame for you guys getting nukes. I never had any intention of attacking Epsilon. I wanted you guys to use your nukes and then my ships which you thought were going to them would be going to you. The sue for peace line in peters email gave me an out AFTER I had already proposed the trade to Epsilon.

IF I would have gotten nukes, you would have received a few. MY plan fell apart slightly when Epsilon attacked me. You have been my target since I took over.

:rotfl:

I'm glad we were able to play the patsy! :lol:

We were, indeed becoming extremely frustrated, as you can see. Good job keeping it up!

After having a look at it, I think the most interesting posts for strangers to read are in Department of Stranger Affairs, from about posts #300-500 and onward. That was where our War with Aloha and having our hand forced with Epsilon is detailed.

I was alone so becoming a multiple personallity was easy..
not it wasnt..

yes it was.
you both shut up.

Ah screw all of you I am trying to sleep.

See above to why Epsilon won the game so easily.

No they won mainly because they had a plan and stuck to it where as you guys couldnt decide what to do. We loss because your attack on us was near enough to kill us off completely IF you would have landed more troops and continued to fight. It appear you guys wanted to fight but you didnt want to lose any troops. We were close to being over run.

No they won mainly because they had a plan and stuck to it where as you guys couldnt decide what to do. We loss because your attack on us was near enough to kill us off completely IF you would have landed more troops and continued to fight. It appear you guys wanted to fight but you didnt want to lose any troops. We were close to being over run.
Well Epsilon did have a plan, and played well in every area. There was probably no way to beat them after the CS slingshot.

That being said, I cant speak for things before 1 AD as I wasnt on the team then, but we definitely proposed every plan in the world to get rid of Epsilon, and the uncooperative attitude of Innovia (over open borders! what a trivial matter) and your distrust of us killed any chance to stop their machine. You were planning on attacking us for forever it looks like (midgame), and only Kuningas seemed to see the writing on the wall as far as allying against Epsilon and not working against us with Innovia.

I did call your attack though!

I also recall your game long tech partnership with Epsilon. It was hard to take you at your word when you said you wanted to see them destroyed. It was also hard to be friends with you when we were the only team that never got access to your maps. Even late in the game you refused to make peace with Aloha to facilitate a three team alliance and threatened our loan camel archer exploring the wilderness outside your borders.

This fundamental disagreement on facts characterizes our relationship all game long, not as you insultingly suggest, a trivial disagreement over open boarders.

Right we couldn't trust you guys because while we were trading you were turning around and getting techs from Epsilon despite saying that you wanted to attack them.

To me it was the constant saying one thing but then doing the opposite.

There was no one else to trade with. That is pretty obvious. Seriously, look at it from our perspective.

It was also hard to be friends with you when we were the only team that never got access to your maps.That was a long time ago, but IIRC we were concerned that you were wanting to map out our defenses to provide to Aloha. And I can certainly understand your point of view on the subject, but the fact is that we would have happily dealt with Innovia. Certainly would have been a different game if we could have gotten past our differences ... :undecide:

:wow: We did kinda wonder why you all never got together to try to defeat us.

At Epsilon, we did work pretty hard to tie Piffle to us diplomatically, economically, and technologically.
And of course - tried to stay on good terms with everyone else... prior to our declaration of war of course :lol:

:wow: We did kinda wonder why you all never got together to try to defeat us.

At Epsilon, we did work pretty hard to tie Piffle to us diplomatically, economically, and technologically.
And of course - tried to stay on good terms with everyone else... prior to our declaration of war of course :lol:

you guys were also quick to end a war... what was ours..one turn.